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Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?
Ex-priest Jim Smith, opponent of Minnesota's ballot to ban same-sex marriages, says these are difficult days to be Catholic.
June 20th, 2012
09:35 AM ET

Can 'true Catholics' support same-sex marriage?

By Chris Welch, CNN

Minneapolis (CNN) - Jim Smith is a former Roman Catholic priest who left his post with the church 10 years ago. He's an ex-priest for several reasons, he says, but one of his main concerns was the church's stance against same-sex marriage and other LGBT issues.

But Smith remains a Catholic - though he says being a Catholic who actively campaigns for legalized same-sex marriages can be difficult these days.

"I'd much rather this wasn't happening," Smith says of the division that the issue has created among Minnesota  Catholics. "But it does provide some real opportunities because it challenges us to talk to each other, Catholics talking to other Catholics."

Minnesota has become the newest epicenter in the same-sex marriage fight. This November, voters will decide whether they want an amendment added to the state's constitution that would ban marriage between members of the same sex.

Smith will be voting "no." And he has helped spearhead efforts in the state to persuade other Catholics to do the same.

A group he helped form,  Catholics for Marriage Equality-Minnesota, aims "to encourage Catholics to consider the profound sacredness of same-gender relationships and to defeat this marriage amendment," Smith says.

Vatican edicts against same-sex marriage often give Catholic same-sex marriage supporters the impression they're in the minority.

Related story: Same-sex marriage by the numbers 

But a recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) suggests 59% of American Catholics support rights allowing gay and lesbian couples to legally marry. One reason behind that statistic - says PRRI CEO Robert P. Jones - is because U.S. Catholics "overwhelmingly reject the idea that sexual orientation can be changed." A PRRI poll bears that out – with 69% of Catholics nationwide saying a person's sexual orientation cannot be changed.

In the Midwest alone, Catholics are evenly divided on the issue of same-sex marriage -– with 46% in favor, 47% against.

Opinion: GOP support for same-sex marriage growing

Related story: Both sides re-energized for upcoming same-sex marriage fight

Like Jim Smith, Michelle LaFrance is a Catholic who has also taken the bold step against the church in support of marriage equality.

"I remember thinking 'wow, maybe I shouldn't [remain a Catholic],' " LaFrance said. Ultimately they've remained with the Catholic faith, citing its many positive aspects including going to church. It's an important weekly ritual for LaFrance, her husband and their three kids.

"The Catholic Church, despite the media [attention] it typically gets, does a lot of great things, a lot of great social justice," LaFrance said. She noted the church "feeds the poor, houses the homeless, takes care of the abused."

The LaFrance family belongs to the Church of St. Margaret Mary in the Minneapolis suburb of Golden Valley, a congregation which LaFrance describes as fairly progressive. She says the majority of her fellow parishioners agree with her stance on same-sex marriage.

But when LaFrance hears the archdiocese telling people how they should think about it, she can't help but sometimes feel like less of a Catholic.

"I don't think anybody - whatever their religious denomination - whole-heartedly follows every single rule down to the letter."

Related story: U.S. history of same-sex marriage

On the other side of the debate stands Dave Deavel.

Although he agrees with LaFrance to an extent, he says he believes there are certain pillars of the Catholic faith that people should follow. One of those is the church stance that marriage should remain between one man and one woman.

"The whole point of what the church teaches is to form people's consciences," Deavel says.

For Deavel, his wife and their five children, attending church is so important they strive to go multiple times a week.

He's active with Minnesota for Marriage, which supports of the same-sex-marriage ban, and has written various blog posts on the topic for the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Asked whether he believes a person can be "less of a Catholic" for disagreeing with the church, Deavel says the Vatican "doesn't really have a certain category for 'less of a Catholic.' "

"But they certainly don't represent what the church teaches," he said. "Is it a spiritual problem? I think yes."

Opinion: The secret gay agenda

In a written statement the MCC said groups such as Catholics for Marriage Equality "do not have any right to call their organizations 'Catholic.'"

In the past, the conference has issued statements accusing Catholics for Marriage Equality of trying "to confuse Catholics and the public about authentic church teaching" on marriage.

"Catholics for Marriage Equality MN attempts to convince Catholics that they can be in good standing with the church and oppose church teaching about human sexuality and marriage, which centers on the complementarity of the sexes and the mutual self-gift of loving spouses in marital union," said an MCC statement.

The Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis declined CNN's request for an interview, but it agreed with sentiments expressed by the Minnesota Catholic Conference.

Does church doctrine make it impossible for same-sex marriage supporters to be true Catholics?

"There is no judgment intended about an individual's 'Catholicity' or 'Catholic-ness,' " says MCC spokeswoman Jessica Zittlow.

Minnesota's November ballot proposal to ban same-sex marriage isn't an amendment against LGBT individuals, say the MCC and the St. Paul and Minneapolis Archdiocese. Instead, they say it should strictly be viewed as an amendment supporting traditional marriage.

For ex-priest Jim Smith, grappling with the issue has been difficult - a personal struggle that extends to the heart of his faith.

The inner conflict between what Smith believes is right and his love for the church has pushed him to consider leaving the Catholic religion altogether.

In the end, Smith vows he will stay. "It's in my bones."

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: 2012 Election • Catholic Church • Christianity • Faith • Minnesota • Politics • Polls • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (2,849 Responses)
  1. Johnson

    True Catholics like myself no longer pay any attention whatsoever to what comes out of Rome or any of the Bishops.

    August 26, 2012 at 7:53 am |
  2. macdonaldbank1

    Being black, left-handed or being gay is just as natural.

    July 15, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
    • Dorothy

      You are absolutely right. And for those that believe p3d0philia has anything to do with heter0s3xuality or h0m0s3xsuality, they obviously know nothing about p3d9philia. P3d0philia is about domination and control......adult mature relationships, regardless of your orientation, have nothing to do with p3d0philia. Also, SOC, the decrease in the abuse within the church has little to do with anything the church did and almost everything to do with the prosecution of the offenders.....the decrease occurred in boys, girls and adult women.

      July 15, 2012 at 5:27 pm |
  3. macdonaldbank1

    http://www.BogusHocusPocus.com

    July 15, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
  4. macdonaldbank1

    http://www.HolyFaux.com

    July 15, 2012 at 4:56 pm |
  5. SoldierOfConscience

    Do you really believe that the fact (and it is a fact) that virtually no priests in the Church have been identified as being abusers of young b0ys since the policy of culling out g@ys from the priesthood and rejecting h0m03exuals for the seminaries since 2002 was merely a coincidence?

    July 13, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Sources?

      July 13, 2012 at 4:52 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      And do you also refuse to believe that the fact (and it too is a fact) that there were dramatically fewer instances of s3xual @buse of young b0ys

      July 13, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      That is like saying that no one at the baseball feild has been bitten by a dog since they stopped letting dogs in....DUH

      July 13, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      So no sources then?

      July 13, 2012 at 4:56 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      c3ns0ring. Imnot able to get my post through . thats why you see fragments.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      No proof will be accepted for this because this is not politically correct. The way when a husband-and-wife team {husband tracking crime, wife in social services} found that section 8 vouchers overlapped heavily with crime, the news was not allowed to go anywhere.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      the long and short is V@tican II -> G@ys got into priesthood. Since 2002 -> they are eliminated. B0y @buse drops.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Of course I recognize that you will not accept those facts because they are inconsistent with your g@y agenda.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      hawaii you asked for proof when I said "climate change" scientsts are proven to be liars. I posted the proof. You ignored it. There's one more data point.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      So then yes, you have no sources to confirm this at all.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      I have no gay agenda you bigoted self rightous peice of ignorance.
      I simply believe that ALL should have equality in our laws.
      You insult soldiers everywhere and you are no ones conscience...change you name.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:04 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      You got a link to the article where you supposedlt did that?

      July 13, 2012 at 5:04 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      according to "who invited me", p3d0ph1les, best1alists, incesters, polygamists must have equality in our laws. take note.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      SOC
      Yes all of those things are illegal,and yes they get equality under our laws.
      There are no laws against being gay moron.
      Me thinks thou dost protest too much... I bet you are in the closet....

      July 13, 2012 at 5:13 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      http COLON SLASH SLASH goo DOT gl SLASH qxAqW

      see where HawaiiGuest ignores proof given to him

      July 13, 2012 at 5:15 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Well then, a blog with an assertion that things were leaked, coupled with some links at the bottom to more assertions of "global scientists conspiracies". Not to mention all but one of the links to more information redirects to other blog posts from the same person. Also, whenever they talk abot this so called "e-mail leak" they are very careful to say that it is "reportedly" from people at CRU, and they never actually state that they are from those people. Not to mention that they do not provide anything other than supposed exerpts from those e-mails, and do not give links to a site where those e-mails have supposedly been posted.
      The Telegraph, as well as any mainstream news source (including CNN, MSNBD, Fox, etc), is very suspect when it comes to science reporting, since the oversight on accuracy is minimal to non-existent.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:06 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Climategate was all in the news, and was suppressed by the powers that be

      July 13, 2012 at 6:33 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      The emails were posted online and analyzed by many.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      being c3ns0red. so trying to post line by line

      July 13, 2012 at 6:36 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      one of the email says they did trickery to get the result they wanted.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:36 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Another says that they will use violence (figuratively) against a journal that published a 'denier' article.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:37 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      anyway I dont want to change the topic. I am still looking for ironclad proof of the decline in rates of m0l3station. WHen I do I will post it.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:37 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      http://oregonfaithreport.com/2010/09/reasons-behind-bostons-catholic-decline/

      July 13, 2012 at 6:45 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      they interviewed Philip Lawler, author of “The Faithful Departed: The Collapse of Boston’s Catholic Church”

      he says “There is a distinction, they are two different things, and most of the high profile cases over the past decade, have been p3d0philes, people who prey on y0ung children. Regardless of the s3x of the ch!ldr3n. Over 85% of the cases involving American Cath0lic pr1ests, have been pr1ests who have m0lested teen@ge b0ys….were talking about a disposition toward young men.” MAN-BOY = male-male.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:49 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Soldier

      What does this interview have to do with providing sources and evidence of your original assertion? All you're doing with this is going to a completely different subject and attempting to equate hom.ose.xuality with pedophelia. Man-Boy does not equal man-man.

      July 13, 2012 at 7:20 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      The interview states that 80% .. that's kind of an evidence

      anyway looking at it in sorta ad-hoc way, we hear of kids coming out saying they were @bused as k1ds by older priests but not those who were inducted after 2002. There can never be official statistics of this kind of thing, one must make do with what we find.

      July 14, 2012 at 10:15 am |
    • Dorothy

      Actually, they do accept gays in the seminary. That, I know for a fact. Also, the decrease in abuse correlates more with public prosecution of offenders than it does with ANY action the church took. This is definitely the fact because there was also a decrease in the number of abused girls and women at the same time. I am sure that now, with the prosecution of the leadership for neglect in these matters, there will also be more due diligence with them as well.

      July 15, 2012 at 1:48 am |
  6. socialgraces2012

    What I don't like most importantly is being told who I should and should not vote for. What political party I should be affiliated with because of my religious beliefs. I have a very difficult time even going to church right now because my pastor is constantly shouting rhetoric about pro-life vs. pro-choice and as a woman, I am for pro-life, but ultimately it is the woman's choice and not the church. I am Catholic, want to remain Catholic but I am slowly believing my beliefs are totally against my religion because of the pastor(s) Republican beliefs. Sometimes I feel like a hyprocrite, but I know I am not, I have six children by choice.

    July 12, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • Catholic

      I can only say that you will always hear the opinions of other people about subjects like the one you are speaking and everyone will try to sway you into their way but the church wont ever force you, some priest just don't know the meaning of subtlety which is essential, but bear in mind most of them are really trying to guide you to our faith.. so don't doubt please and if you can't stand the pastor, find another.

      July 12, 2012 at 9:14 pm |
  7. Terik Ororke

    Conscience is formed by truth –m not the whims of society or its wishes....there is a truth, like it or not and eventually it will crush those who try to distort it simply because it will haunt their minds ....conscience is not consensus...going along with the crowd is really dumb, but so many want to take that easy road that they kill their conscinces.

    July 11, 2012 at 11:04 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Oh....you mean like the people who follow whatever the Church says blindly without taking into consideration what empirical data now tells us?

      July 15, 2012 at 1:51 am |
  8. catholic

    No.

    July 10, 2012 at 10:38 pm |
  9. Guest

    He should have never been ordained, if he supports SSM-It violates the laws of God!

    July 10, 2012 at 9:01 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Actually it has nothing to do with God.....it is just what men decided was the mind of God.

      July 15, 2012 at 1:50 am |
  10. Hal

    The Catholic church considers most marriages (with rare exceptions) to be invalid and does not recognise them. Therefore, if two people get married outside the Catholic church, there is really no marriage for me as a Catholic to be concerned with. Let them do what they want. Why should any of us want to be part of the Christian Taliban?

    July 10, 2012 at 8:24 pm |
    • Cat

      You are actually 180 degrees wrong about this. The Catholic Church considers all marriages to be valid by default. That is why it requires individuals who were married outside of the Catholic Church to still get an annulment following a civil divorce if they wish to get married in the Church.

      July 10, 2012 at 9:25 pm |
    • Matt

      Yes....Agree with Cat......Before spouting off about the Church, please take the time to actually understand its teachings.

      July 11, 2012 at 4:07 am |
    • catholic engineer

      Being part of the cultural Taliban offers more options for self destruction.

      July 11, 2012 at 11:01 am |
    • Dorothy

      Actually Cat and Matt, Hal is right and you are wrong. The Church considers valid, but illicit, those marriages that are performed in another church. BUT, if you are married before the justice of the peace, the marriage is not considered valid as it does not meet the requirements of form to be a sacrament. They do recognize it as legal, but not valid.

      July 15, 2012 at 2:00 am |
  11. SoldierOfConscience

    stanJames

    You made a bizzarre claim that the church spends 430K PER DRESS on bishops. I did some research myself, didnt not find anything. Any proof? I think it must be a couple thousand dollars at best.

    July 10, 2012 at 6:07 pm |
  12. SoldierOfConscience

    I'm blindly voting for Romney (even though he is a moron and I dont like them), also any and every republican candidatess.

    July 10, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      oops sorry typo I meant 'mormon' not 'moron'

      July 10, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      you had it right the first time

      July 10, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • Sage

      SoC, you are not going to find many 'candidatess' from the GOP. they are a male centric party. har har!

      What will you do when faced with a male GOP candidate?

      July 10, 2012 at 4:25 pm |
  13. Carolu Poliano

    I’ve learn a few good stuff here. Definitely value bookmarking for revisiting. I wonder how so much attempt you put to make any such excellent informative web site.

    July 8, 2012 at 12:55 am |
  14. SoldierOfConscience

    Sage, Tom, back off,

    I believe strongly in what is good and what is false. its either BLACK or WHITE. not a sea of greys. not moral relativism. The church teachings. Bah, troll....

    July 6, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Ahhhh....but Jesus loved the color grey. He condemned the black and white, heartless morality of the Pharisees. Jesus came down on the side of grey on laws governing food, governing the Sabbath, even governing marriage.......The more the church acts like the Pharisees, the less Christian it becomes.

      July 6, 2012 at 8:42 pm |
  15. Dorothy

    Interesting that the Catholic Church condemns the use of and refuses to fund a medication (hormone) which has been shown to decrease the risk of ovarian cancer particularly in celibate women. Contraception, when used for five years during child bearing years, has been shown to decrease the risk of ovarian cancer by 50%. How said, and how ironic this is in a Church which encourages women to become Sisters and live a life of celibacy

    July 3, 2012 at 10:50 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Dorothy, let me give you an analogous situation. Cocaine is shown to be a good pain killer but the government bans (a step above condemns) the use of it and refuses to pay for it to be used. As a result, 40% of those in pain continue to be in pain.

      What do you have to say about the fact that life begins at conception and b1rth c0ntr0l, m0rning @fter, and ab0rt1on all kill an unborn baby?

      How do you feel about the fact that in nature, with all mammals, s3x always comes with the risk of a pregnancy, and any way to sever that connection is unnatural and immoral? That's why I support the church in this matter, not out of dogma.

      July 4, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • Dorothy

      Oh my....where to start! First of all, cocaine is not a very good analgesic. It was historically used as a topical anesthetic, but the benefit no longer outweighs the risk with newer and more effective synthetic drugs that have less side effects. It was also used as a vasoconstrictor for epistaxis. There are much more effective drugs with less side effects, which is the reason it is no longer used. Such is not the case with contraceptives. They are quite safe and have multiple benefits.....one of which, as I mentioned, is to decrease the risk of ovarian cancer in celibate women (as well as non-celibate women....although the former are at higher risk.

      Second, I do not necessarily concede that human life begins at conception. There are both medical rationales as well as theological rationales to hold this view. In medicine, we define the end of life as the cessation of meaningful neurological activity....the same definition could certainly be used for the beginning of life as well if we wished to be consistent. Theologically, however, St. Thomas Aquinas stated that a soul could not be present without "individuation." We now know that an individual does not exist at the time of conception as an embryo can divide into two embryos and return to one embryo during the first weeks of its existence. If human life is defined by the presence of a soul, then until and "individual" (no capable of dividing) is present, according to Aquinas, as soul cannot be present.

      Finally, in countries where contraception was not used the rate of spontaneous abor-tion is actually higher than when contraception is used (by about 10-20%). Hence, the use of contraception actually decreases the overall rate of abor-tions. Contraceptives themselves no longer function primarily as an abortifacient, but rather by inhibiting ovulation – the effect which also decreases the rate of ovarian cancer.

      July 5, 2012 at 12:34 am |
    • Sage

      Dorothy,

      a word of advice:

      Do not feed the trolls.

      It only encourages them. I can bet you a million bucks the brave soldier will not reply to your well formulated reply. he just posts these outrageous things for kicks.

      July 5, 2012 at 9:54 am |
    • Dorothy

      Actually, Sage, I am not convinced he is a troll. Many Catholics hold his point of view. Having been on one side or the other of the Catholic School desk for over a quarter of century – some conservative schools and some liberal schools, I can assure you that there are those Catholics who firmly adhere to the old adage, "Roma lacuta est, causa finita est." Luckily, there are also an increasing number who recognize the importance of personally informing their conscience and making good personal decisions. They recognize that our hierarchy has sadly been our greatest source of embarrassment throughout history.

      July 6, 2012 at 12:09 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      OK so my cocaine analogy was off a little.

      In nature, with all mammals, s3x always comes with the risk of a pregnancy, and any way to sever that connection is unnatural and immoral. That one constraint is meant to keep people and relationships honest. On a related topic, I strongly believe that when society went away from shunning divorce to "Oh, you dont like each other. then divorce." that lead to the demise of morality as well.

      July 6, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • stanJames

      it just shows that the church puts its dogma ahead of science.

      The real problem of conservative religions is that they fear that if they change any part of the story, the whole biz gets called into question.

      thats part of the reason that the dark ages lasted a thousand years. BTW I read that the bishops clothes (or dress( costs about 430k/per set. with 4000 bishops and and eg 5 sets of their uniforms, thats about 600 miollion $$

      it would go a long way to helping desperately poor people in eg Africa. And didnt Jesus wear rags?

      to say nothing of how much moeny the church is spending to keep our gay and lesbian citizens as second class under civil law.

      July 10, 2012 at 1:59 am |
    • stanJames

      the church has gone back to selling indulgences – one of the reasons that Marin Luther left the church, and another cause of the anything but holy Inquisition

      You can buy your way out of hell/puragatory or get out early.

      Wonder what Jesus would think of that one – the rich get off, the poor burn..

      Something is rotten in the Vatican. (probably sweating over Denmark which on 6-15 replacing 2nd class CUs with civil marriage under the law.

      And the state church is allowed to do gay marriages as long as the couple can get a minister to do so of his own free will

      BTW France has promised to do the same by the end of the year.

      the church is like an ostrich with its head in the sand. its committing suicide, the western world is passing it by.

      Its only pals re marriage are the Islamic and commie states. the purveyor of 9-11 and Stalin etc.

      politics makes worse then strange bedfellows.

      July 10, 2012 at 2:33 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Stan,

      The bishop's dress costing 430K?? I dont believe it. Can you prove it? A few thousand I can believe. a few hundreds more likely.

      July 10, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • Terik Ororke

      Get real and grow up...you know that is not true.

      July 11, 2012 at 11:00 pm |
  16. Sage

    this forum needs a e-sign

    "Do NOT feed the trolls"

    I made the mistake of replying to some yes-or-no questions earlier. Tom and Hawaii tried to engage said person in dialogue just now, to no avail. Maybe next to 'Report Abuse' they need to put 'Troll Alert' link for us to click.

    July 3, 2012 at 9:06 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yeah, Soldier, or "Solder", as he called himself before someone pointed out his stupidity, is a troll. He makes a good piñata, though. Kind of a cat toy for the internet, you know.

      Dumb as a box of rocks and far less useful, otherwise.

      One can only hope he or his wife are infertile.

      July 3, 2012 at 9:12 pm |
  17. SoldierOfConscience

    to force the catholic church to support the murder of unborn children via next day pill, ab0rt1on, b!rth c0ntr0l, etc. is the same as the following acts:

    1. forcing moslem to serve pork at mosqeu
    2. forcing hindoo to serve beef at temple
    3. forcing jew to do non-kosher food at synagogue

    Preserve religious freedom!

    July 3, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I thought you promised you weren't going to post on CNN anymore.

      July 3, 2012 at 1:59 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      I didnt promise.

      Anyway, when I have an argument that will benefit other people I should put it out and ignore people like Mr Tom

      July 3, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Soldier

      And how are they being forced to do these things? That's something I haven't seen yet.

      July 3, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      @Hawaii

      simple, just read the above post again and you will understand.

      July 3, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      force catholic do do what he / she is against, with CHURCH money = same as above 3

      July 3, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sure you did. You made a big deal out of being "abused", and under two different screen names, no less.

      Nobody's forcing catholics to support or fund abortion. And the morning-after pill and birth control pills do not cause abortions.

      July 3, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Your post isn't 'benefiting' anyone, since it's nothing but fabrication, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this forum.

      July 3, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Au contraire, Tom, it has.

      This is yet another way catholics are being forced to go against their teachings. The same standard is not applied to any non-xians. Thats the connection.

      July 3, 2012 at 5:37 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      and to answer your silly point about birth control and morning after not causing... its the same. Life begins at conception and they all kill an unb0rn b@by

      July 3, 2012 at 5:39 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      @Soldier

      Your assertion still makes no sense. The church is not being forced to do anything.

      July 3, 2012 at 5:41 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Tom, we had to sell our second card because we couldnt afford it. However, I convinced my wife that donating $51 the personhood campaign that was trying to get laws passed saying life begins at conception was the right thing to do. That's our contribution to the betterment of society.

      July 3, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      ok hawaii you want me to spell it out.

      Many churches and church hospitals do not want to cover b1rth c0ntrol as part of their heath benefits for employees. There was a religious exemption till recently. The new decree will force people of faith to pay for something they loathe, that is against their religion. Next they will force church organizations to provide same s3x partner benefits. it's all bad.

      July 3, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      There was a 'compromise' that 'Commander 0s@ma bin b1den' tried next, that they wont have to pay for it but insurance company that covers them has to provide it free fo cost. yeah right. They are angels of mercy right? also, many fail based hospitals self insure so will end up having to cover it.

      Bottom line : Anyone who feels strongly enough should be allowed to NOT cover controversial things like birth control etc. under employee health coverage.

      July 3, 2012 at 5:49 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      1) Churches are exempt, and this has been public knowledge from the very beginning.
      2) The hospitals are not "church hospitals", the are affiliated with the hospital, which is not the same thing. They are completely free to withdraw from the hospital if they don't like the law, they are also free to build a "catholic hospital", and only hire catholics, and have it funded completely by private donations and church money, then they can do whatever the hell they want. HOWEVER, hospitals get money from the government in very substantial amounts, and as such the business is required to follow federal standards.
      The church has three options:
      Un-affiliate with the hospital
      Stop taking government money
      Stop being whiny little bitc.hes for having to play by the same rules as everyone else.

      July 3, 2012 at 5:55 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      So federal rules can trump freedom of religion? thanks for your answer.

      July 3, 2012 at 6:33 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      What a gross oversimplification and misrepresentation of what was said. You have merely shown that you have intrest in actual dialogue, and wish only to twist anything to fit preconceptions you already have.

      July 3, 2012 at 6:35 pm |
    • HawaiiGuest

      *have no intrest*

      July 3, 2012 at 8:37 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What Soldier has no interest in is the facts.

      He's beyond ignorant. He's just plain stupid. I can only hope he is sterile and can't procreate.

      July 3, 2012 at 9:15 pm |
    • Sage

      Osama bin biden? really? I dont need to say any more.

      wait..

      "second hand card"?? do one thing: sell the one you have also and give all that $$ to whatever fringe group you fancy

      "fail based hospital"? har har. that sounds right.

      July 3, 2012 at 10:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Crap! I missed the "fail-based hospitals"! What a hoot!

      Really, the moron is a complete joke. I'd be surprised if he wasn't a plant.

      July 3, 2012 at 10:29 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Tom,

      I should send you a picture of my son who goes to sunday school, and is taught about the controversies in evolution by me at home. When he gets old enough, I plan to teach him what a hoax 'climae change' is.

      July 4, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Sage, I did say card instead of car. I did not say 'second hard car'. Why should I sell my one car and donate the proceeds to anyone? None of the groups I support are 'fringe groups', for your inforation.

      July 4, 2012 at 5:04 pm |
    • derp

      "when I have an argument that will benefit other people"

      That hasn't happened yet.

      July 5, 2012 at 10:00 am |
    • stanJames

      So why is the church trying to impose its beleifs on others – its republican pals in AZ narrowly lost a bill to make it very difficult to get birth control pills. Same thing happened in several other states

      In Wi, my daughter 10 years ago got an implanted birth control device. Even then, she saw attempts to take us back to the 1920s when birth control was not available .

      Unravel this whole mess and you'll see the church treats women as baby factories or slaves. I was in Saudi land in the run up to the first gulf war as a technical advisor on missiles . they treat women as dogs to put it bluntly.

      BTW I leave you with this question – how many wars do you think we would have if women ran things in the world?

      Not a lot. Its just another exampel of how male control and masochism is cruel

      July 10, 2012 at 2:07 am |
    • stanJames

      all you have to do is read SoC's comment on climate change is a hoax. i know the church is concerned about the issue, at least they care that eg Kent Island wont end up under water if the icecaps mellt.

      Soc is a mix of catholic extrmiesm mixed with the crooks of faux news who may go to jail over the biz about spying etc and secret recodings / snooping on phone calls

      Its a sad sad life some people lead – filling hteir mind with ignorance, greed, and superstiion, as well as religioius intolerance.

      I wonder if we should rename SoC "Parrot "

      July 10, 2012 at 2:42 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Stan, I have my principles so im called extremist. Fine. At least I didnt fit my ten year old daughter with an IUD. What kind of doctor does this kind of thing anyway?? and why???

      July 10, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      What the eff are you babbling about now?

      July 10, 2012 at 1:42 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Im not babbling. Stan said in WI he got his 10 year old daughter a IUD.

      July 10, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Will you either get new glasses or learn to read? That's not what he said, you birdbrain.

      July 10, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
    • Sage

      What's wierd, Stan, is that faux news has its share of anti-catholic hysteria too. I wonder how SoC digests those....

      July 10, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Oops.. misunderstood. You see, I'm scanning the comments quickly at work.

      I apologize to Stan.

      Sage, what anti-catholic??

      July 10, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
  18. SoldierOfConscience

    http COLON SLASH SLASH goo DOT gl SLASH nXlp1

    July 3, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      The way scientists have manipulated to support 'cl1m@te ch@ng3', maybe they have manipulated in other areas?

      July 3, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      I mean areas like support of 'other 0rient@t1ons'

      July 3, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      Hawaii, in another article you accused me of making up facts when I said when leaked emails put scientists in a bad light its all swept under the rug . The above article has the proof of the fraud, aka climategate.

      July 3, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
  19. But the Church does so many "good" things...

    Yes, it's a shame about all the molested children, and yes, the war on women's rights is devastating to a lot of women, and of course, gays are mistreated, fired, kicked out of their homes, school denied their children, etc – but think of all the GOOD that the Church does!
    It forces those poor people in Catholic countries to not use birth control and have babies they can't afford to feed. THAT is a good thing, isn't it? And yes, it's true that they've had to close down a few senior centers to pay for the payouts to the molestation victims, but hey – they're old people – they don't mind being a bit crowded, and besides, you get cold when you're old, so 2 or 3 to a bed will just help them keep snuggly warm!

    Oh, yes. The Church does SO many good things that you just must turn the other way and not inspect those things the Catholic Church does that are reprehensible. "Don't look and don't criticize or what we'll do is take our $ and our ball and go home. So there. Nyah."

    July 3, 2012 at 10:54 am |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      B!rth c0ntrol promotes !ust which in turn leads to more sin. whether it be poor or rich country, we have had one policy about things like b!rth c0ntrol : its bad,

      What do you mean, war on women's rights?

      g@ys fired : that is not the church that's the boss. and its his/her right to do whatever.. after all unlike say black skin, being g@y is a behavior and one can change it. so you cant say civil rights. It is the duty of any holy person to discourage undesirable behavior. you cant call this 'mistreatment'. News flash : p3d0ph1les mistreated!

      Re: the m0l3st@tions, some g@ys got into positions of power in church and did their thing. Unfortunately now the church is liable.

      July 3, 2012 at 6:31 pm |
    • Sage

      Im violating my own rule here, but GO AWAY to whatever asylum you came from. You're playing with yourself here. Nobody is replying to your lunacy.

      July 3, 2012 at 9:12 pm |
    • catholic

      You must be blind for not seeing all the good the church does, even though yes, everyone makes mistakes, yes even the people who are supposed to be "good" and i agree they dont deserve to go around as if nothing happened, but the bad things that the church does do not out weight the good ones. Dont generalize.

      And how the hell does church forces people to have babies? no no no, if the people dont have enough to feed themselves why should they even have kids, i like to believe that people are not stupid and they can control their own acts without forced birth control.

      July 10, 2012 at 10:58 pm |
    • SoldierOfConscience

      catholic, you are a genius

      July 10, 2012 at 11:37 pm |
    • catholic

      By the way, check knight of god's comments on the 1st page, I couldn't have explained the topic better than him.
      SoC, i have seen you get mocked a lot by some but we just have to hold on our faith.

      July 12, 2012 at 1:15 am |
  20. Tom From NY

    Oh and Chris Welch....I like more pictures.......

    July 2, 2012 at 7:00 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.