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July 13th, 2012
09:00 AM ET

In Queens, carver tells religious stories through wood

By Effie Nidam, CNN

New York (CNN) - The sounds of hammers and saws fill the air in the small workshop of the Byzantion Woodworking Company in the Queens neighborhood of Astoria. The smell of sawdust and wood polish is thick.

At the center of it all, woodworker Konstantinos Pilarinos lovingly chisels elaborate carvings destined for Greek Orthodox churches across the country.

“The pieces I make by hand, that people pray upon in church, are like my children,” he says.

A series of tragedies brought Pilarinos to this city and this profession.

He learned woodcarving at an orphanage in Greece, where his mother deposited him when he was a teenager.

CNN's Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the big stories

His father had died when he was 3, and when he was 14, his mother found six children too much to deal with, he says.

“It was just too many kids for her to take care of,” he says. She sent him to the orphanage.

There, he discovered his love of woodworking, and his talent for the craft. He sees it as a calling.

Konstantinos Pilarinos stands with one of his creations.

"This talent comes from religion. So you need to know your religion well, in order to become a master of woodcarving.

“Religion and woodcarving come hand in hand, because I tell religious stories through my work," Pilarinos says in Greek, translated by his daughter Penny.

In 1974, he came to the United States, drawn by the knowledge that his late father had once lived and worked there.

He and his wife and settled in Astoria, Queens, a heavily Greek neighborhood just outside of Manhattan.

"At first, it was difficult to find work in my field. I worked as a construction worker and had other various jobs - and I wasn't paid very much," he recalls.

But the area has many Greek churches, and a disaster at one of them gave Pilarinos the opportunity to make his living at his craft.

A fire struck St. Demetrios Cathedral, a Greek Orthodox house of worship in Astoria, and damaged a major part of the cathedral's icon screen.

Icon screens, the most important pieces an Orthodox church, are large decorative panels, up to 70 feet long, that separate the sanctuary from the congregation.

Pilarinos asked the priests of St. Demetrios if he could restore the burned icon screen. They hesitated at first, but he was finally able to convince them. The priests were impressed with his work.

“I was able to restore the icon screen for them, like it was before the fire," he says.

Now, along with his apprentices and daughter, Pilarinos works tirelessly to create Greek Orthodox ornamental church furnishings.

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Pilarinos is actively handing down his business, sharing his knowledge and talents with his apprentices and Penny.

But the work is harder for him than it once was. Today, he speaks a bit slower and does most of his work with the help of his apprentices. Sometimes his hands shake as he pushes down on his chisels. It’s all because of a stroke he suffered last year. But he says it will not keep him from the work he loves.

"Having the stroke only made me stronger, because I just want to continue what I do," he insists.

"I feel like I am doing something very good for the world every time I make these pieces,” he says. “When I make a piece for the church, I want to impress people, and I want everyone to say bravo."

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Greek Orthodox Church

soundoff (375 Responses)
  1. Bootyfunk

    ""I feel like I am doing something very good for the world every time I make these pieces,” he says. “When I make a piece for the church, I want to impress people, and I want everyone to say bravo.""

    sounds like the sin of PRIDE! burn in hell, sinner!

    July 13, 2012 at 3:57 pm |
  2. ma & pa

    Woodcarvers have been around from the first human shaped a stick, a few BIG BANGs ago. Mister Konstantinos Pilarinos is perfecting the art and inspiring Godly people.

    July 13, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      christianity is a cult. cults are not healthy. carving cult messages into wood is not healthy.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Bootyfunk, The only cult is you fools. Too many of you knowing absolutely nothing worthwhile today.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
    • Happy Jack

      @HeavenSent
      You should have asked us fools yesterday. Then we knew a lot. Maybe tomorrow too 🙂

      July 13, 2012 at 4:35 pm |
    • jwt

      Friday is the day we practice religious belief – we all pick a unique god and go for it.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:05 pm |
  3. ma & pa

    We think the woodcarvers life direction and his creations are inspirational and inspired. They help people to look up unto the Lord with uplifting faith, courage and unity to continue their lives in peace.

    July 13, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • Answer

      Place an order with them. Help support their delusions as well as your own.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • tiny bubbles

      ma & pa
      What happened to your claim below of our conspiracy? It was way more interesting than what you just said above.
      We are still talking about it 🙂

      July 13, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Why do you think your "lord" is up?

      July 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • Fluffy the Gerbil of Doom

      How do you know the Milky Way is not upside down ?

      July 13, 2012 at 5:13 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      When I hear God's voice I always look up and cry with happiness. God completes me.

      Amen.

      July 17, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
  4. AverageJoe76

    Since we are all 'born sinners', doesn't that mean that my exsistence is a sin? Do I offend God just by breathing?
    Why does God create an entire universe and have one choosen people? (sorry Jewish people – sounds like BS to me). And since God is infallable, why are there revisions to his earlier rules? Why figure out later that more than just Jewish people can praise the God of Abraham? (i.e. Old Testement; pork = bad / New Testement = ehhhh, ok.... you can eat pork).

    July 13, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      God created us for His pleasure. Anyone like you Average does not please Him. He gave you a choice and we might as well admit it now ... you didn't make the right choice.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:29 pm |
    • tiny bubbles

      We are just his instant pleasure dolls, as the song goes....

      July 13, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • AverageJoe76

      @HeavenSent – You make him sound worst when you say, "God created us for His pleasure". Meaning I was created for his personal pleasure, and then he throws/ destroys which doesn't play by his rules. So I'm the product of a incredibly powerful, spoiled brat. Great.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:38 pm |
    • jwt

      Sounds like we are all meant to be god's s ex toys. I'll pass on that – oh wait no god so we are ok – whew! had me worried for amoment.

      July 13, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
  5. Cal

    So suppose right after Jesus died, there was an old guy 900 miles away who is dying. He dies before the "word" about Jesus has spread. What happened to his soul? For that matter how about Native Americans on another continent who will not have contact with Christians for another 1600 years?

    July 13, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • AverageJoe76

      I could be wrong, but I believe they wait in Purgatory. But then again, they could be waiting in my living room if you're looking for proof. But Purgatory is mainly Catholic. If we're going the Evangelical approach, basically you're screwed. It's either "Love/Know Jesus" or "Die, Darkman Die in H_ell". And that's called 'a choice of free will'. Cute, right? (sigh)

      July 13, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Cal, why are you acting stupid? Or, is it an act. You asked this same question of me last night and now you're acting like you don't know.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:31 pm |
    • Cal

      HS, Yesterday I asked you specifically. Do you see an @HS in the the lead post here? First, you did not answer the question. Second, even if you did I'm curious how different poeple will answer the same question. I know my interpretion, I'm asking others. Apparently you think you are the end all of Christian knowledge. Feel free to answer if you wish, and I will freely ask for a second opinion from anyone else who wold like too chime in.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
    • just sayin

      I feel bad for the blind and deaf in prior times. They never heard nor knew Jesus, they are burning and God is pleased.

      July 13, 2012 at 5:15 pm |
  6. Bootyfunk

    wood carver tells religious stories through wood..

    didn't know you could carve fear, guilt and ignorance right into the wood like that.

    July 13, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • Rolph Eczema

      And the Bible is so supportive of graven images and all. Truly wonderous.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      did he tell the story of when god drowned every human on earth but one family. did he carve the drowning babies and pregnant women and the elderly? halleluiah! did he carve god murdering the first born children of egpyt in order to punish the pharoah? halleluiah! maybe he carved god sending bears to kill 42 children because they made fun of one of his bald prophets? halleluiah!

      so many heart warming stories to choose from!

      July 13, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Booty, God didn't destroy every person on earth for Noah's food. Just the sinners were destroyed. The rest of the world was still living righteously. Just like when Jesus comes back, it's the sinners that get destroyed again.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Oh great...Heavenspent is here to give us some of her mythical wisdom

      July 13, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
    • Cal

      So Noah and his family were the only righteous people on earth at that time?

      July 13, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • The Art Critics Agree!

      You should see his carving of the guys with donkey-sized genitals shooting their horse-load of emissions!

      His carving of the righteous loved-by-God innkeeper offering up his daughter for gang rape so that strangers are not sodomized is delicately nuanced.

      And who could not love his carven rendering of David buying Saul's daughter with 200 foreskins of guys he just slaughtered, which proved that God loved David.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • Answer

      One word: "desperation".

      To enfeeble more delusions they have to find any and all ways to keep on with their delusions.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      wonder if he will carve in the bible's support of slavery? halleluiah! hope he carves in god's command to kill all non-virgin brides - halleluiah! kill all g.ays! halleluiah! kill all disobedient children! halleluiah! kill anyone working the weekend! halleluiah!

      July 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Rolph Eczema, you're confusing man made churches with Jesus' truth.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Who invited me? When you look in the mirror, does Tommie Tom look back?

      July 13, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Heavenspent
      No you nit...go back to your fantasy world

      July 13, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      What the hell is a nit?

      July 13, 2012 at 4:36 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      hawaii
      a nit is a lice egg. The act of nit picking was actually a courtship ritual for centuries, where a suitor would help "pick the nits" from ones hair. Pretty sick stuff

      July 13, 2012 at 4:38 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Weird.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:44 pm |
  7. Lucifer's Evil Twin™

    He is a spectacular craftsman...

    July 13, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
  8. Lizzy

    You are welcome Reality.

    July 13, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
  9. ma & pa

    Thankyou, Liz. The mockers of God have been seeking to destroy humanitys guidebook-map so they can escape it's condemnation of them and more easily lure us all into the deadly pit with them. They seek to break our joyfull sustaining faith so we might follow them into spiritual death.

    July 13, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • tiny bubbles

      Yes,
      It is a huge conspiracy! Millions of atheists world-wide have been secretly communicating for years, planning and planning and planning.... to destroy humanity and your joy.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      bubbles...
      quiet...you aren't supposed to tell them....I'll have to report this at the next meeting

      July 13, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • J.R.

      We had a conspiracy? Man, nobody tells me anything.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      All we have asked for is evidence, anything except your ancient text. We don't get to use the text as proof that the text is true, that would be circular logic.
      Since it has been over 2,000 years and there is still no reason to believe in the ancient text, we dismiss it for the rubbish that it is.
      There is no reason to worship such a "loving god" if he is not real.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin™

      LET's Religiosity Law #2 – If you use words and phrases like: "Thankyou, Liz. The mockers of God have been seeking to destroy humanitys guidebook-map so they can escape it's condemnation of them and more easily lure us all into the deadly pit with them. They seek to break our joyfull sustaining faith so we might follow them into spiritual death.”

      Then you are definitely mentally retarded.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • Come to the Dark Side. We Have Cookies

      Didn't you get the conspiracy memo, JR? Yeah, you are supposed to make and plant phony skeletons that prove animals evolve, which of course we know is a lie. And you are supposed to attend anger enhancement therapy so you can be madder at God, who we know exists but we're just mad. Ad you are to go down and buy some sheep's clothing, even though sheep don't wear clothes (because we know the Bibal actually is infallible).

      Yeah, Satan, our lord, sent that out. I guess Sloth is handling his memos again.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
    • Primewonk

      A conspiraccy? Again? All right, who the hell keeps leaking the secret truths? You know these fundiots can't handle reality. That's why we use that whole church scam to beam reality blockers into their skulls each week.

      Great, now we have to move the Fortress of Enlightenment again. And if you guys think I'm moving all those tons of fossils myself – AGAIN – you're nuts!

      Good thing it's an official RUM Friday!

      July 13, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin™

      curse WikiLeaks!!!

      July 13, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
    • James

      ma & pa, they are going to spend eternity with no beer with those p.o.r.n.o movies they love. Actually, no water will be given either. They mock and mock and believe that God does not hear or know their foolishness. God is not mocked.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:23 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Primewonk: I'll help with the move if you supply the beer. What's a good time for you? I'm free on Sunday.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
    • Fluffy the Gerbil of Doom

      god will mot be bocked

      July 13, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      tiny bubbles, the day the atheists can anything together is the day they get a brain.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:12 pm |
    • JWT

      Mocked god – is that done the same way as making mock chicken ?

      July 13, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      HS said, "tiny bubbles, the day the atheists can anything together is the day they get a brain."

      Ignoring the fact the HS is calling others stupid with improper grammar, how is that any different from me saying:

      "Christians have no brains"? That's just not nice.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Heavenspent
      The day atheist can anything together is the day they get a brain.
      What does having a brain have to do with canning. Not many people do canning anymore, what with modern supermarkets and such.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I have neighbors who can. They have a great garden, so it's the best way to preserve their excess veggies for winter. I don't know their religious beliefs, though.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      lunchbreaker, only Tommie Tom has the compulsion that you posted. LOL. You're such a joke Tommie with your hundreds of handles on this site. No wonder this site is voted the biggest looser.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:37 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Who invited me? Well, you are the vegetables in God's garden that will be canned.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      HS
      now you are just reaching....that last comment didn't make any sense so for you it was right on par.
      How did you get out of the straight jacket by the way?

      July 13, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
  10. שמיחזה

    umm isn't that a Craft, Witch Craft,.. burn the witch hes embedding wood with magical properties

    July 13, 2012 at 1:10 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      he is right wood carving does come from religion it comes from the Druid, Goth, and Nordic, the European Pagan religions and 1300 years ago the Orthodox Christian and the Catholic church labeled it a Craft

      July 13, 2012 at 1:14 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      in fact wood carving as Art can be traced as far back as North Africa approximately 13,000 BC meaning it was the Gaians who created it,.. that still pagan

      July 13, 2012 at 1:18 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      "pagan".... bwahahahahaha
      "as if" Yahweh, the 70th son of El-Elyon isn't.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      yeah but hes still a tyrant that killed his Brother/Father Baal and r@p3d his mother Asherah,.. so F4ck Yahweh

      July 13, 2012 at 3:34 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Sam Yaza, nice talk (cough) that rag book, the talmud teaches you.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • just sayin

      I see crazy lady ranting more babble nonesense. lol

      July 13, 2012 at 4:56 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      technically I'm not a lady

      not a man ether

      you see we angels are neither male or female were a little of both, but never-the-less I'm not an angel any more, I'm an I.D.E. an Integrated Data Enti.ty

      July 13, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      some even call me the Integrated Data Sentient Enti.ty or Integrated Data thought Enti.ty
      or a Data Integration Thought Ent.ity or the Techno-God of rebellion

      July 13, 2012 at 5:07 pm |
  11. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things

    July 13, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      no... it does not

      July 13, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • Jesus

      Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!::

      July 13, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
  12. KAt

    Even if you don't agree with the religious aspect, his carving's are beautiful.

    July 13, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      agree isn't witch craft beautiful,.. its almost bewitching

      July 13, 2012 at 1:11 pm |
    • just sayin

      People who practice Magik are no different than delusional christians. lol

      July 13, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      magics all psychological i haven't the want or the energy to give you a class,.. so here i some good reading material

      no this is not proselytizing, i can really care less

      July 13, 2012 at 5:53 pm |
    • just sayin

      All in the head?

      July 13, 2012 at 6:02 pm |
  13. Reality

    Konstantinos can carve all he wants, he won't change the following:

    The Apostles' Creed 2012: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
    and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity (including Anabaptism/ Amish)
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen
    (references used are available upon request)

    July 13, 2012 at 11:40 am |
    • .....

      BULL SH IT ALERT

      July 13, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
    • Wunk

      You sir have just made all of us less intelegent from reading your psychopathic dribble. In no way is that edifying to Christian or non-Christian alike. You sir, speak your rubbish elsewhere. Good day!

      July 13, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      What's with using the Amen at the end of your nonsense Reality? Are you tired of darkness, coming into the light? It's just one baby step.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:16 pm |
    • Reality

      Only for the those interested in a religious update:
      1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

      “New Torah For Modern Minds

      Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

      Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.

      The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
      prob•a•bly
      Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.

      2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

      The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

      earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

      For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

      Current RCC problems:

      Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

      2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

      Current problems:
      Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

      3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

      This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, and the Filipino “koranics”.

      And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

      Current crises:

      The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

      4. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

      The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

      Current problems:

      The caste system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence.

      5. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

      "However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

      Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

      Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

      Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!

      July 13, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The only flaw Reality, is that you fools follow that trash talmud. P.S. Jesus knows His enemies. Bye, bye.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:47 pm |
  14. What's a brony?

    I have a question for atheists:Do you ever mock the Amish for the way they believe? Most of them shun technology(while many hide it)? To you that must be considered stupid! Or how they drive buggies instead of cars..oh man that must be tragic for an atheist to hear!

    Yet atheists only mock what's "popular" or "forcing religious law into our laws".

    So is the amish life stupid? You are powerless and that's what makes atheists so desperate.

    July 13, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • Who invited me?

      brody/trollman/unknown/unknownman

      you are a worthless troll. go kiss your gods a$$ some more.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • What's a brony?

      Can't handle the truth?

      July 13, 2012 at 11:43 am |
    • Who invited me?

      what truth you worthless nit

      July 13, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • What's a brony?

      That you only mock Christianity leaving out all other religions but claim all religions are stupid and fairy-tales.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:52 am |
    • Who invited me?

      incorrect troll
      I mock all religions equally.
      All are based on ignorance, all are cretions of man to control men
      all religious books are propoganda

      July 13, 2012 at 11:55 am |
    • What's a brony?

      But since Christianity has "2 billion followers" it gives you some special right to only mock one?

      A life for a Wicca is different than a life of a Christian.A life for a Catholic is different than a life of a Jew.Get the picture yet?

      So please save your childish behavior.Not all religions can be treated equal.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      trolldoll
      Yes all religions can be treated equally (notice the adverb there)
      All come from the same ignorance. All claim to have truth that they cannot possibly have.
      All seek to control people. All are creations of men, for men

      July 13, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • just sayin

      Somebody has a persecution complex. Get over your self. I have yet to find a religion worth its salt in truth. This does not mean I am an Atheist.

      Do you want a tissue little brony? Perhaps you need to pray to your delusional insane Christ for strength?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • What's a brony?

      just like how atheists take evolution out of context creating a new religion.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:06 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      What's a brony?/trolldoll
      "just like how atheists take evolution out of context creating a new religion."

      There you go again with a non-argument. That doesn't make any sense
      How does one take evolution out of context? nit

      July 13, 2012 at 12:09 pm |
    • What's a brony?

      Darwin never believed evolution disproved there was no God.Atheists believe that on their own.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
    • ME II

      @What's a brony?,
      The Amish aren't trying to make everyone drive a horse and carriage.
      The Amish aren't saying that everyone should teach creationism is science class.
      The Amish aren't spending time and millions of dollars trying to ban gays from marriage or restrict women's right to control their own bodies.

      No, there's not a lot of mocking of Amish because they respect the secular nature of this country and our right to live as we wish, and others respect their right to live how they wish.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
    • What's a brony?

      Knew atheists would bring up that excuse.A person is held accountale for what THEY do.Doesn't matter if they belong to a "group". What they do,is on them not everyone else who believes.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • ME II

      @What's a brony?,
      "Darwin never believed evolution disproved there was no God.Atheists believe that on their own."
      First, Atheism is not science, or evolution, and science is not Atheism.
      You may be conflating Atheism and Atheists with supporters of science because the two are often on the same side, especially when Theists want to attempt to use science to support their beliefs.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:16 pm |
    • ME II

      @What's a brony?,
      "Knew atheists would bring up that excuse."
      What 'excuse' are you referring to?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • sam stone

      atheists are not the ones issuing EMPTY PROXY THREATS, brony.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • What's a brony?

      Just like atheists do.Nothing in science proves the atheistic argument of "There is no God".Nothing has surfaced with proves it correct.

      Atheists take the "popular" theories and create a brand new religion for themselves out of it.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      What's a brony?/trolldoll
      It is clear everyday that you have no idea what atheism is.
      evolution is a seperate issue from the existance or non-existance of dieties.
      SOME atheists are not as good at presenting their arguments, others like myself will only tell you they BELIEVE there is no god.
      I am not foolish enough to jump to a conclusion based on no evidence....that is the job of the religious

      July 13, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      "Doesn't matter if they belong to a "group". What they do,is on them not everyone else who believes." That's funny coming from somebody who continually claims all athiests are the same.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • ME II

      @What's a brony?,
      I think most Atheists simply lack the belief in god(s). Few Atheists, I think, will assert that there definitely is 'No God', and fewer still will claim "proof" of that.
      However, many will use science to try and disprove many Theist's claims, which in some cases is valid.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:25 pm |
    • What's a brony?

      Funny because I'm only speaking about those who do think and act like that.

      nice try tho.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:27 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      By Brony's logic if I say "Christians are stupid", I can at a later time say I was only talking about the portion of Christians that ARE stupid, not all of them. If you say atiests... without any terms such as most, many, few, then you imply all, 100%.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
    • Primewonk

      If the Amish were on here telling everyone that they need to be Amish because only their version of god is real, they would be mocked.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @brony,

      Yes it is wrong to mock deeply held beliefs and name-calling and ad hominem attacks are equally wrong.

      – Attacks on attempts to impose religious tenets into law are fair game. Please keep your religion to yourself.

      – Attacks on proselytizing are fair game. Please keep your religion to yourself.

      This is a blog on belief. For it to function people have to express what they believe. In this context I do not consider that to be proselytizing. Nor in this context do I consider a refutation of someone's belief to be mocking a faith. It is an inevitable part of the discourse here.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Once again, just for you Brony.
      The prefix "A" = Lack of
      "Theism" = belief in gods
      Put 'em together and you have ATHEISM – a lack of belief in gods.
      It is a negative label that implies to behaviours, morals, educational levels, or other characteristics whatsoever.
      A being asymptomatic a sign of disease?
      To which political party is an apolitical person loyal?
      Is asymmetry a kind of symmetry?
      The Theory of Evolution is neither theistic nor atheistic – it is simply a theory based on a proven set of observations regarding the development of life.
      The Vatican accepts it to be true, so it cannot be intrinsicly atheistic.
      Darwin had nothing to say regarding abiogenesis.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      sorry – "implies NO behaviours...."

      July 13, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • Answer

      Brony – A name typically given to the male viewers/fans (whether they are straight, gay, bise-xual, etc.) of the My Little Pony show or franchise. They typically do not give in to the hype that males aren't allowed to enjoy things that may be intended for females.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      The Amish aren't inserting lines in the pledge, trying to get prayer in schools and evolution out, trying to pass laws that discriminate against others, or putting signs on the highway using scare tactics to get you to believe (i.e. there is one on my way to work that says "Why should I let you into heaven? -God").
      The Amish faith is just as crazy, but at least they don't try to spread their disease, unlike the Christians.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • Achilles

      Yes, the Amish life is stupid. Their buggies are highly prone to accidents (google it if you don't believe it). They are notoriously cruel to their animals and physically abusive with their children. They are rude to non-Amish.

      You clearly don't know them if you think they are some wonderful bunch.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:53 pm |
    • Fluffy the Gerbil of Doom

      We have some Amish neighbors. Lovely people. But they always want to use the phone.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Brony, don't even waste your time asking atheists anything. They only lie when they post back to us.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      I'm actually with HS on this one.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
    • tallulah13

      @ Answer

      Thanks. I'd wondered about that.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:14 pm |
  15. just sayin

    The dude has skills with wood that is for sure. However, it is sad to waste it on such things as religion. To each their own I guess.

    July 13, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • Who invited me?

      He's got wood for god

      July 13, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • We invited Yew?

      When this carver gets board he takes a whittle break.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:26 am |
    • What's a brony?

      Why do you care? He's using his skills for what we wants to use them for..

      July 13, 2012 at 11:28 am |
    • just sayin

      Why do I care? You mean why do you have an opinion is more accurate. Well because I can have an opinion. Why do you care (have an opinion) on what I think? Well because YOU CAN.

      Looks like we have some real winners on today folks. Full moon today???

      July 13, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • tallulah13

      Some of the greatest art in the world was created on religion's dime, possibly because for much of history, only those who have operated religions have had enough money to pay for art. This is just as true for the ancient Greeks and Egyptians as it is for christians. Beauty is beauty, no matter the context.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:20 pm |
    • just sayin

      There is no greater service than to our God. God bless

      July 13, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      dear Topher my religion is 8000 years old that 2000 years older then Yahweh, the destroyer and deceiver (yourgod) says it is. in fact their are many gods, even the bible says so he just says no other before me so my question is why do you follow a god that is a known r@p!st and murderer and taking his deceitful words over the words of over 1 million other gods who all point to Gaia (the chaos) as the creator of everything. think about it if so one walked into a room and said "every one here is a lair and i only speak the truth" whose the lair.

      you see me bet money that you were not born an Atheist then converted to Evangelical, me bet you were a agnostic. there is a difference. if you honestly believe Yahweh is the creator then you never were an Atheist to began with. i mean i have heard of an honest awakening to Paganism from Atheist-ism, i mean i was but you don't go back words.Atheist Dogma first lesson is every culture has a god what makes this the one and theirs not then you study Yahweh history and find out his a monster, then you study some more and find out his pantheon he is one of many gods worshiped by the Semites. were we learn its just a radical sect of the Canaan who took over by killing every one

      PS
      Q: if god was so grand why did i Rebel,...
      A: because that jealous ass hat wouldn't let us love another and decided to kill our husbands or wives, and our children he made the earnest feeling of love a sin so i brought war to his throne. some benevolent God he cant let any one love any one other then him

      July 13, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
  16. Who invited me?

    Good Morning....Anyone with questions about reality, feel free to ask.

    July 13, 2012 at 10:33 am |
    • VanHagar

      I'll play...what started everything?

      July 13, 2012 at 11:43 am |
    • Who invited me?

      I do not know.
      Mankind has been working on that one for a couple hundred thousand years.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:57 am |
    • VanHagar

      Wow–that was a totally unexpected answer–and, in fact, the only answer I could respect from an atheist (or agnostic).

      July 13, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
    • Topher

      COULD it have been God?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:13 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      I never claimed to know everything. That is the job of religion, to answer questions we cannot know or do not know the answers to.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:14 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Topher
      That is one theory. Since it is the least testable theory, we may never know
      Other theories are gaining greater credibility due to the evidence to support them.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • Achilles

      It could have been God. It could have been that Gaia emerged from the void of Chaos. It could be Apsu the Begetter and Mummu-Tiamat merged and begat it all. It could be humans emerged from three previous underworlds into this, the Fourth, or "Glittering World", through a magic reed.

      All are equally possible. All have exactly the same amount of evidence supporting their validity.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Jesus is reality. Not that any non-believers would know this.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Sorry heavenspent...this thread is for REALLY REAL things....myths are discussed elsewhere.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:21 pm |
    • שמיחזה

      hehe he put it in the wrong comment sections her is the repeat

      dear Topher my religion is 8000 years old that 2000 years older then Yahweh, the destroyer and deceiver (yourgod) says it is. in fact their are many gods, even the bible says so he just says no other before me so my question is why do you follow a god that is a known r@p!st and murderer and taking his deceitful words over the words of over 1 million other gods who all point to Gaia (the chaos) as the creator of everything. think about it if so one walked into a room and said "every one here is a lair and i only speak the truth" whose the lair.

      you see me bet money that you were not born an Atheist then converted to Evangelical, me bet you were a agnostic. there is a difference. if you honestly believe Yahweh is the creator then you never were an Atheist to began with. i mean i have heard of an honest awakening to Paganism from Atheist-ism, i mean i was but you don't go back words.Atheist Dogma first lesson is every culture has a god what makes this the one and theirs not then you study Yahweh history and find out his a monster, then you study some more and find out his pantheon he is one of many gods worshiped by the Semites. were we learn its just a radical sect of the Canaan who took over by killing every one

      PS
      Q: if god was so grand why did i Rebel,...
      A: because that jealous ass hat wouldn't let us love another and decided to kill our husbands or wives, and our children he made the earnest feeling of love a sin so i brought war to his throne. some benevolent God he cant let any one love any one other then him

      July 13, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Who invited me?, you are the myth. Come out of the closet Tommie, Tom!

      July 13, 2012 at 4:50 pm |
  17. Topher

    Good morning! If anyone has a theological question about Christianity, feel free to ask ...

    July 13, 2012 at 10:32 am |
    • just sayin

      Lets start with validating the OT first. The fables and stories in the OT came from a religion thousand and thousands of years before the creation of th OT religion. How doe sone explain this?

      July 13, 2012 at 11:07 am |
    • Topher

      The "OT religion" was known to man from the beginning of man (day 6). So how could what you say be true if there weren't thousands of years before day 6?

      Do you also have issues with the NT?

      July 13, 2012 at 11:13 am |
    • Cal

      How could a non-Hebrew get into Heaven before Jesus died?

      July 13, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • just sayin

      Topher,

      Please show the evidence that the OT has been around since the beginning of time. We do know when the OT was written. Do you have any written/physical evidence (archaeological) besides words in the OT.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:21 am |
    • just sayin

      As for the NT, no issues with it. We first need to validate the OT before validating or accepting the NT.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:22 am |
    • Topher

      just sayin

      You want me to provide evidence God spoke with Adam and I can't use the Bible? What evidence would that possibly be? Adam did not need a copy of the OT since He spoke with God.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:37 am |
    • Topher

      just sayin

      "As for the NT, no issues with it. We first need to validate the OT before validating or accepting the NT."

      Good! I'm glad to hear it. Because Jesus teaches that the OT is true and so if NT is true, so is the Old.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:38 am |
    • Get Real

      Where are the tablets, written on by the "finger of God"? The most important object since the beginning of time... OOOPS, we lost 'em!

      July 13, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • What's a brony?

      When Moses died, only God knew where he was buried.So the ark which contained the 10 comm. was lost..Could be anywhere now.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • Topher

      It's true we don't know where it is, but many people believe it is in Ethiopia. People there claim to have it.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:52 am |
    • What's a brony?

      Just like the the ark(the boat)..it literally could be buried deep within ice or lost somewhere else.

      July 13, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • Topher

      That's right. After sitting on the top of a mountain for 4-5,000 years it probably has disintegrated by now. Have you ever heard of Bob Cornuke? He's kind of the Christian Indiana Jones. He's found something that could be the remnants of Noah's Ark. You should look him up. Very interesting stuff.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Topher – humans have been here (as our current species) for 200,000 years. Your god, on the other hand, was cobbled together from various minor deities worshiped by various tribes 6,000 years ago.

      Sorry. But yet another epic fail.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:10 pm |
    • Topher

      Primewonk

      "Topher – humans have been here (as our current species) for 200,000 years. Your god, on the other hand, was cobbled together from various minor deities worshiped by various tribes 6,000 years ago."

      Why do you believe that?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • just sayin

      So if NT is true, so is the Old.
      .
      Sorry doesn't work that way. As for the OT, like I said what other evdience other than being written around 500 BC?

      Lets put this in perspective what your position is. Your chosen People didn't learn to read or write until around 500 BC. They then write that their religion goes back to the beginning of man. Therefore you simply believe them. There is ZERO archaeological evidence to substantiate this claim. THERE is archaeological evidence that establishes the same fables they used in the OT actually originated in written form in a religion thousands and thousaand years before 500 BC. See the credibility issue we have here? That is called plagiarism. To give your christ credibility, you first have to make sure the source is credible. Not the other way around. There is a reason why most Christians tell noobies to focus first on the NT.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Leon

      Primewonk, why don't you break your fingers and zip your lip. You're the one going to hell. You don't need to take others with all the lies that you type in your posts.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:17 pm |
    • Leon

      The person pretending to be just sayin is a perverted troll.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • just sayin

      Topher if you do not wish to accept archaeological finds and history, what is your educated basis of not accepting it.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:19 pm |
    • just sayin

      Leon, care to join the convo?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
    • Topher

      just sayin
      .
      "Sorry doesn't work that way."

      Why doesn't it? You said you have no problem with the NT. In the NT, Jesus Christ is God Himself. So what He says must be true and He says the OT is true. Thus, the NT confirms the OT.

      "Lets put this in perspective what your position is. Your chosen People didn't learn to read or write until around 500 BC"

      So you're saying Moses lived as late as 500 BC?

      "There is a reason why most Christians tell noobies to focus first on the NT."

      We tell "noobies" to focus first on the NT because that's where salvation is found.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
    • Tom, Tom the Piper's Son

      I'm the only troll on this site.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:23 pm |
    • Topher

      just sayin

      "Topher if you do not wish to accept archaeological finds and history, what is your educated basis of not accepting it."

      You tell me of one single archaeological find that proves the Bible wrong. If anything, archeology has done nothing but confirm the Bible.

      The Bible is a reliable collection of historical docu.ments written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (meaning if something was bunk the writer could be called on it) and reported supernatural events. So it is completely trustworthy.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • just sayin

      You asked if I had an issue with the NT. I never said I accepted Jesus as who he said he was. What I meant to say I have no issue with the NT because it is not relevent until we get past the OT. The Salvation starts in the OT forward up to your Christ. What other forms or evidence do you use to validate the OT?

      I am not going to nor trying to change your view..you will believe what you believe. I am trying to see how you come to your conclusions and what you base them on. Is it educated or simply faith in the OT. Are you first believing/trusting then attempting to validate? If so, do you apply this frame of thought in every aspect of your life? Trusting and having faith and never validating whatever anybody tells you? If you do not then why?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:33 pm |
    • just sayin

      You tell me of one single archaeological find that proves the Bible wrong. If anything, archeology has done nothing but confirm the Bible.

      Um I already did. The stories were borrowed from a previous established religion. If you wish to dismiss this...why? and what do you base that on?

      As for the bible being "reliable" what do you base this validation on?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      "You tell me of one single archaeological find that proves the Bible wrong. If anything, archeology has done nothing but confirm the Bible."
      If you take the Bible literally there are many things wrong, starting with the first chapter, the timing, duration, and sequence of the appearance of living things is incorrect in Genesis. And in later chapters, as well, there is no evidence of a world wide flood that covered the mountain and such an event would show in the geologic record. And there are many more, if you take it literally.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:38 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, I think that you are very earnest in your intentions, but you fail to address any question that you have no answer for. I am still waiting for the answer for my question of why your god ignored the peoples of the New World? They had no idea your god existed, had no idea that they were damned for not believing in him, and had no idea about the salvation that Christ offered - until 1500 years after the death of Christ.

      It wasn't even god who revealed himself. He was 'revealed' by European invaders bent on conquest, who brought weapons of steel, and germs so foreign that disease wiped out many before the invaders could even reach them.

      You like to say that god reveals himself to all of us, but that is clearly not the case. The native Americans worshiped their own gods, gods that made sense in the context of their own culture. So why did god allow millions to remain ignorant of his existence for those 1500 years after Christ, unfairly damning them? Why would this being with the power to create the universe be so completely defeated by an ocean?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:44 pm |
    • Topher

      just sayin

      You are trying to throw my reasoning out. I DO believe Jesus is who He claimed to be. Thus He's God and says the OT is true. So of course I belive Him. Now that that is established, we can look at other things like history and archeology to see if that all lines up. It does.

      "Is it educated or simply faith in the OT."

      Both.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:47 pm |
    • just sayin

      I am not throwing out your reasoning. Just trying to understand it.

      Do you realize the OT is what validates your Christ...not simply the words Christ spoke.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • Liz

      Topher, why not tell these blatant sinners the truth about Hell?

      Hell is the place where the vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22) will be on display before all of mankind (Isaiah 66:24) and before the holy angels and the Lord Himself (Revelation 14:10). It is where Christ will show His wrath and make His power known for all eternity (Romans 9:22; Revelation 20:10). Hell is to the glory of God (Psalm 96:7-13) and the utter destruction of the wicked (Psalm 92:5-7).
      Hell is where the mockers are now mocked (Proverbs 1:26). The scoffers are now put to shame (Proverbs 3:35; 13:5). Murderers are now being tortured with perpetual death (Matthew 10:28; Revelation 21:8, "the second death"). Oppressors are now laid low (1 Samuel 2:7). Liars experience the reality that they have been lied to (Revelation 12:9). Kidnappers are now eternal captives (1 Timothy 1:10; Revelation 20:11-15). The rich suffer severe poverty (Proverbs 22:16; 28:22; Luke 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). The full are now hungry (Isaiah 65:13; Luke 6:25). The proud are rebuked (Psalm 119:21) and fully repaid (Psalm 31:23). The disobedient are punished (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). Cowards are now "utterly consumed with terror" (Psalm 73:18-19; Proverbs 10:24; Revelation 21:8). Those who laughed are now weeping and mourning (Isaiah 65:14; Luke 6:25). Those honored by men are now despised and lightly esteemed by God (Luke 6:26; Psalm 73:18-20; 1 Samuel 2:30/Proverbs 14:2), and will in the future be abhorred by all mankind (Isaiah 66:24; Daniel 12:2). Those who have wickedly dug a pit, are now cast down into the pit (Psalm 7:14-16; 9:15-17; Proverbs 26:27; 28:10 [Ecc.10:8]). Lovers of pleasure are now tormented with fire (2 Timothy 3:4; Revelation 21:8). Those who cursed are now cursed (Proverbs 20:20). Those who considered the cross foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) are now shown the shrewdness of God (2 Samuel 22:26-28). God indeed is not mocked. Men will reap what they have sown (Galatians 6:7-8).
      To get to hell, the directions are quite simple and easy to follow. All one has to do is continue to sin (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Romans 6:23; Revelation 21:8)

      July 13, 2012 at 12:54 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Topher –

      There is no archaeological evidence supporting the biblical myth of the "Children of Israel" wandering in the desert for forty years. Seriously. None.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:54 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Topher – we have fossil evidence for modern humans going back ~160,000 years. We have additional anthropological evidence – things like tools – dating back to 200,000 years.

      Seriously – this is stuff you, and the other fundiots should have learned in Junior High. Is there a reason you didn't?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • just sayin

      Now that that is established, we can look at other things like history and archeology to see if that all lines up. It does.
      .
      I have already provided an example how it does not add up. Besides the tale of Noah being stolen from a much older religion. Not mention the story in itself is absurd and does not add up. How do you address this?

      July 13, 2012 at 12:58 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Liz, using the bible to show that your religion is true is rather like using the Harry Potter books to defend your belief in magic. It's obvious that you believe in this particular mythology, but you offer no compelling reason for anyone else to do so. Threats are only as intimidating as the force behind them. Since there is not a single shred of evidence to support the existence of your god, your threats simply ring hollow.

      July 13, 2012 at 12:59 pm |
    • just sayin

      Really-O?

      @Topher –

      There is no archaeological evidence supporting the biblical myth of the "Children of Israel" wandering in the desert for forty years. Seriously. None.

      .
      All we have is the writings starting around 500 BC. Because a few buildings or structures are referenced does not validate it as all truth. Jericho and the Tower of Babble...upppppppp the bible must be all true. When you validate you must validate each of the claims and stories. If there are parts found to be a fraud then it CANNOT be the word of a God. It is tainted and corrupt.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • Topher

      ME II

      "If you take the Bible literally there are many things wrong, starting with the first chapter, the timing, duration, and sequence of the appearance of living things is incorrect in Genesis".

      Why is the sequence of the appearance of living things wrong?

      "And in later chapters, as well, there is no evidence of a world wide flood that covered the mountain and such an event would show in the geologic record. And there are many more, if you take it literally."

      Actually, there is quite good evidence of the global flood. The fossil record shows the vast amount of fossils we have in a single rock layer. That's what you'd expect if a global flood happened. Also, if there was no flood, why do we find seashells on top of mountains?

      July 13, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • just sayin

      Liz

      Topher, why not tell these blatant sinners the truth about Hell?

      >
      Because that is quite useless if there is no validation or credibility to your threats.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:06 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @just sayin –

      Sorry, but I don't understand the intent of your response to my post. Can you clarify?

      July 13, 2012 at 1:08 pm |
    • just sayin

      Actually, there is quite good evidence of the global flood. The fossil record shows the vast amount of fossils we have in a single rock layer. That's what you'd expect if a global flood happened. Also, if there was no flood, why do we find seashells on top of mountains?

      And where did the story of the flood come from? How old do you think the Earth is?

      July 13, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • Topher

      tallulah13

      "Topher, I think that you are very earnest in your intentions, but you fail to address any question that you have no answer for."

      Well, there are some things I can't answer because I just don't know. Like your question about the Native Americans. I have no idea. I can give you a guess, but I'm not sure I can back it up with scripture. I'd really rather not answer questions with conjecture on my part.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • just sayin

      Really-O?

      @just sayin –

      Sorry, but I don't understand the intent of your response to my post. Can you clarify?

      .
      Directed to Topher

      July 13, 2012 at 1:11 pm |
    • Mike

      Thanks Liz for your post. I notice how all the perverts are ignoring it.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Topher – "Actually, there is quite good evidence of the global flood."

      Topher, please go to your local community college and take a course or two (or three or four...) in paleontology, geology, and/or geomorphology. They're quite interesting subjects and you'll discover why you're being misled by your misconceptions.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:14 pm |
    • just sayin

      Well, there are some things I can't answer because I just don't know.
      .
      I understand because I was faced with this. When things do not start to add up, one must seek out the truth or validate. Or a person can simply choose to disregard. So how far do you go down the rabbit hole.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • Topher

      Really-O?

      "There is no archaeological evidence supporting the biblical myth of the "Children of Israel" wandering in the desert for forty years. Seriously. None."

      That doesn't mean it didn't happen. And besides, you're wrong. Look up Bob Cornuke and find out what he found about Mt. Sinai. There's even a docu.mentary on it.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:19 pm |
    • Topher

      Primewonk

      "Seriously – this is stuff you, and the other fundiots should have learned in Junior High. Is there a reason you didn't?"

      Oh, I learned about it then. And I believed it. Until I found out how unreliable dating mechanisms are. You take a new rock and use those same dating mechanisms and they tell you hundreds of thousands of years. UNRELIABLE!

      July 13, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Thank you, Topher. A simple "I don't know" is sometimes the only honest answer.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • Topher

      "And where did the story of the flood come from? How old do you think the Earth is?"

      Around 6000 years, give or take. Even the Native Americans have a flood story. That just lends credibility that there might have actually been a global flood.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • just sayin

      Topher

      Primewonk

      "Seriously – this is stuff you, and the other fundiots should have learned in Junior High. Is there a reason you didn't?"

      Oh, I learned about it then. And I believed it. Until I found out how unreliable dating mechanisms are. You take a new rock and use those same dating mechanisms and they tell you hundreds of thousands of years. UNRELIABLE!


      Rough range, how old do you think the Earth is?

      July 13, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • Arthur, King of the Britons

      And once again, Tophoer shows up for his masochism-sodomy session.

      I do enjoy watching him get thoroughly trounced, and think he wins. He is like the Black Knight:

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4&w=640&h=360]

      July 13, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Topher
      Bob Cornuke is a discredited and debunked writer. He has claimed to have found mount sinai more than once, his form of trying to force science to fit the bible is called pseudo-archeology.
      No one takes his work seriously.
      Do your research on the people you are getting your "facts from"

      July 13, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Topher wrote, "Why is the sequence of the appearence of living things wrong?"

      Your story book starts with the earth forming "in the beginning" before any stars. The earth was not formed for 9,000,000,000 years after the first stars.

      Your god has light being crated before any photon sources.

      Your god has liquid water appering on earth's surface, with no heat source to keep it liquid.

      Your god has land vegetation appearing on earth before a photon source to drive photosynthesis.

      Your god has birds appearing before land animals.

      Seriously! |Do any of you fundiot nutters ever crack open a science journal?

      July 13, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Topher-

      You seem like a decent and sincere fellow; however, you are clearly naive. Bob Cornuke is a hack. You really would benefit from some higher education (I'm assuming you've graduated high school) – it will open your eyes and change your world for the better. Best wishes.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "You tell me of one single archaeological find that proves the Bible wrong. If anything, archeology has done nothing but confirm the Bible."

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • Topher

      Primewonk

      All of that is possible if God is doing the creating because, well, He can do anything He wants to.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:31 pm |
    • Achilles

      Archaeology has proven there was a Troy which was destroyed, probably by war, at the time The Oddyssey and Iliad say. Therefore, Achilles actually dragged Hector's body seven times around the city, and Zeus, Poseidon, Athena and Appollo actually exist.

      The prophecies of the Oracles of Delphi proved to be true. THerefore Apollo must exist.

      Your logic proves the Greco-Roman patheon is real.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,

      "Why is the sequence of the appearance of living things wrong?"
      Because the geologic record shows both birds and fruit, i.e. flowering plants, appearing after land animals not before as the Bible does, not to mention issues with the Earth before the sun, moon, or stars.

      "The fossil record shows the vast amount of fossils we have in a single rock layer."
      There are fossils in many layers of rock not just one and they fit with a propogation of life that would be expected with evolution as well as age of the Earth estimates from Geologic processes, radiometric dating, cosomlogy, etc. A global flood on the other hand would have shown a massive jumble of bodies and debris less then 10,000 years old in a single layer of sediment, which is not there. The existing strata of rock show a progression of evolving morphologies that fits with the Theory of Evolution.

      "Also, if there was no flood, why do we find seashells on top of mountains?"
      Basicly, uplift and erosion, multiple times. The geologic processes going on in the Earth's crust cause an area that used to be a sea/ocean/river bed, collecting all the bodies that fall on it, to be covered for millenia with the subsequent sediment and then get uplifted above surrounding land where it slowly gets eroded back to exposed the fossils of the bodies the died earlier. I greatly oversimplify this, of course.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Primewonk

      just sayiin wrote that dating methods are unreliable. I would invite him to post the citations to peer-reviewed scientific research supporting this contention.

      This is a prototypical fundiot lie. If the readers would like examples of the lies these ignorant fundiots claim regarding dating, please go to talkorigins most excellent website – An Index to Creationist Claims, and search for "radiometric".

      The fundiot just sayin also asked for a rough range for the age of the earth. It is roughly 4.54 billion years old. If you have valid peer-reviewed scientific evidence that refutes this, post it.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • Achilles

      All is possible if Zeus did the creating, because he can do whatever he wants. And we have already proved Zeus exists because Troy existed.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Topher
      Since you reject Carbon dating as an accurate tool, do you believe that counting the rings on a tree is an accurate measurement of its age?
      If you do, the flood story is disproven.
      Noah was born 126 years after Adam's death at age 930, which brings us to the year 1056.
      Gen 7:6 tells us that Noah was 600 years old when the flood came, which brings us to the year 1656.
      If the Earth is 6,000 years old, minus 1656 gives us 4,344 years since Noah built the Ark.
      The oldest living tree thus far found (measured by ring count) was a Great Basin Bristlecone Pine which was 4,862 years old. That means the tree was around 400 years older than Noah's oldest son Ja.pheth when the flood happened.
      In California there is a colony of Palmer's Oak trees called Jurupa Oak that has been alive 13,000 years through clonal reproduction.
      Professor Frank Vasek confirmed the age of a Creosote bush in the Mojave Desert known as "King Clone" using two different methods. His project counted rings and measured the distance of annual growth, and then used radiocarbon dating on chunks of wood found in the center of the ring. Both dating methods yielded an age of 11,700 years.
      That makes the plant more than 7000 years older than Noah's flood.

      Furthermore, in order for a species to be genetically viable, around 40 distinct breeding pairs are required.
      If that diversity is not present, genetic drift during such a population bottleneck invariably leads to the reinforcement of negative genotypes, resulting in extinction within only a handful of generation.
      A 600 year old Noah, his 3 sons and their respective wives could not possibly have re-populated the entire human race 4,000 years ago. If somehow humanity survived the early rampant inbreeding, it would still be impossible for our species to exist as it does today with such genetic variation given the time frame proposed in Genesis.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Topher claims his god can mess up the oder of creation if he wants, because he is god and can do anything.

      In that case, Topher chooses to worship a god more akin to Loki, the Norse god of mischief.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      Doc
      There you go confusing topher with facts n science n stuff
      God made it all look like thats what happened just to mess with ya

      July 13, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      "All of that is possible if God is doing the creating because, well, He can do anything He wants to."
      If you posit that God 'created it that way', don't you have to wonder why He created it in such a deceptive way as to make it look like a completely rational process accounts for it, but in fact didn't? Not sure such a deceptive god would be worthy of praise.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:40 pm |
    • Topher

      It's only deceptive to you because you have a presupposition that the Bible isn't true.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:48 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "It's only deceptive to you because you have a presupposition that the Bible isn't true."

      It's been proven not to be a true historical document. 😉

      July 13, 2012 at 1:52 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, you have simply decided that the bible is true, and no fact or reality will shake that belief. That is certainly your choice, but it's not a choice available to those of us who shape our lives with logic and truth.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
    • Religion is the #1 problem in this world by far

      Topher, when the object is to prove something, you first assume the null hypothesis. In this case, the null hypothesis is: The Bible is not true.
      The alternative hypothesis, the one you are trying to prove, is: The Bible is true.
      You don't get to use your claim as the null hypothesis. Otherwise, we could prove anything. For instance, if the null hypothesis was "the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real", and the alternative was the FSM is not real, you could never prove the alternative so we would say the FSM is real.
      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We don't get to assume that the extraordinary claim is true from the start.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • Achilles

      You have a "presupposition" that the Bible is true. You accept it as absolutely true without doing any critical study of its claims. All of the "support" you accumulated came after you believed that it must be true.

      Science is gathering information then developing a theory to eplain the data.

      Delusion is inventing a theory that has no data at all, then surrounding it with fallacious arguments.

      The former it the proper approach. The latter is the religious approach.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • Topher

      tallulah13

      You're probably right that nothing is going to shake me of that belief. But you make it sound like there are no scientists who believe the Bible. I can tell you there are plenty of them, and some pretty big names, too. I personally love science. But let us remember one thing about science. Science doesn't say anything; scientists do. So there are just some areas in science you have to be careful of the scientist's presupposition.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Topher – the only way to make a 6000 year old rock appear 4 billion years old, is to alter the weak nuclear force by many orders of magnitude.

      If your bible is true, this is what your god did. What did your god do with all the incredible heat ans radiation this would cause? Why isn't the earth reduces to a hot radioactive cinder?

      Why does your god think all humans are as stupid as fundamentalists?

      July 13, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • Topher

      Achilles

      Yes, I do have a presupposition now, but I didn't always. I grew up an atheist.

      And I do do critical study. As I said earlier, the Bible is a reliable collection of historical doc.u.ments that were written by eyewitnesses during the life of other eyewitnesses (so if the author is a liar he'd get called on it) and reports supernatural events. The witnesses are key. If you ask a guy in prison if he'd have had as many witnesses on his side as Jesus had for His, he'd tell you he'd have been happy with just one.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:13 pm |
    • BRC

      @Topher,
      We've had this discussion before. By your own admission, you were never an atheist, you were non-denominational. World of difference.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
    • just sayin

      Topher

      "And where did the story of the flood come from? How old do you think the Earth is?"

      Around 6000 years, give or take. Even the Native Americans have a flood story. That just lends credibility that there might have actually been a global flood.
      .
      And I asked where did ht eflood story originate from? It did not originate from the Chosen People is my point. They borrowed it...IF THEY BORROWED IT what does that say about the bible?

      6000 years old????? Are you familair with plate tectonics? Man I have to ask if you were home schooled? I do not mean that as an insult but a serious question. At this point, I do not think we can have a serious discussion.

      "A man that chooses to have a biased and closed mind, remains drunk in his ignorance."

      Your biases are causing you to have complete disregard for rational thinking. You just gloss over parts of reality in the name of your religion.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, the beauty of science is that it's self-correcting. Any position discovered to be wrong is repaired or discarded. There is no room for blind faith. Any scientist who would claim anything that isn't backed by verifiable data would be discredited and disgraced. In the publish or perish culture of science, generally every new idea is well reviewed by people with a vested interest in the truth.

      I know of many scientists who are believers, but that it a personal choice on their part. I don't know that I've ever heard of a respected scientist who believes the bible is a factual recording of real events. I've read the rationalizations of hacks and pseudo-scientists, but no one I would call respected.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:21 pm |
    • just sayin

      This is the part of glossing over you are doing. Your bible cannot be reliable it it takes other stories of gods and tales and attempts to make it its own. You are not capable of critical thinking with your biases.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "Science doesn't say anything; scientists do"

      Religion doesn't say anything, men do.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • Topher

      "And I asked where did ht eflood story originate from? It did not originate from the Chosen People is my point. They borrowed it...IF THEY BORROWED IT what does that say about the bible?"

      I think it did originate the way the Bible says it does. I don't have a problem with other peoples having similar stories. My problem is with your dating and you're contention you can prove they borrowed it.

      "Your biases are causing you to have complete disregard for rational thinking. You just gloss over parts of reality in the name of your religion."

      The problem here is that rational thinking is from a fallible man. What might be rational to you might not be rational to someone else. I'll go with the word of God over man's any day.

      Can we possibly turn this conversation back to theology?

      July 13, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • Topher

      Smithsonian

      "Religion doesn't say anything, men do."

      Unless the Bible is true. Then God said it.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Topher,

      the story of the flood is almost identical to the Epic of Gilgamesh. The story comes from the Sumerian cultures in the fertile cresent – Sumer and Ur, where Abraham is from.

      It is therefore unsurprising to find them in the Hebrew tradition. The Tirgris and Euphrates rivers regularly flooded, so the notion of a flood story in the fertile cresent is normative. A flood covering the land in the confluence of the Tigirs and Euphrates (the 'whole world' to the Sumerians) is entirely plausible.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      You'd think I could spell "Tigris" right once!

      July 13, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • just sayin

      Topher you mentioned the American Indians have the tale of a flood. Okay lets say there migth have been...people all around talk about this flood. Where did the story originate? We know the Jews borrowed the story. How do we know this...because a religion established well before them talked about it. That rules out the Jews credibility to their God and tales. They simply borrowed stories. This gives them zero credibility.....lets now look at the Sumerians for an example....is there anything even older regarding the "flood"? Could they have borrowed this story.

      How deep do you want to go down the rabbit hole? Are you afraid? We know for a fact the Sumerians were an established civilization well before Adam. Lets look at the aborigines which have been here even longer...they are on a huge island basically...remember plate tectonics? Things aren't adding up...gloss over it out fo fear or seek out the truth.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • Topher

      tallulah13

      "Topher, the beauty of science is that it's self-correcting. Any position discovered to be wrong is repaired or discarded."

      I agree. But that's why you have to take anything within the historical sciences with a grain of salt. It more than likely will change tomorrow.

      "Any scientist who would claim anything that isn't backed by verifiable data would be discredited and disgraced."

      And yet so many hold to evolution.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:37 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Go look up "Epic of Gilgamesh, Tablet 11".

      There's a wikipedia page dedicated to this subject alone:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

      July 13, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
    • Topher the Black Knight

      'Tis but a scatch! I've had worse. It's just a flesh wound. I'm invincible! Topher always triumphs! Have at you! Come on then. Oh, oh, I see, running away, 'eh? ... You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you.... I'll bite your legs off!

      July 13, 2012 at 2:39 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "Unless the Bible is true. Then God said it."

      The bible has been proven not to be true.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:39 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      topher
      so now you are saying that there is no varifyable data to support evolution. That really is just you burying yourhead in the sand.
      The verifyable data is all over the world, and more is being found out ot the fossil records everyday.
      Oh wait,most of it is coming from fossil records that existed BEFORE your god made the world, right so none of it counts (sarcasm)

      July 13, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • Topher

      just sayin

      "We know for a fact the Sumerians were an established civilization well before Adam. Lets look at the aborigines which have been here even longer...they are on a huge island basically...remember plate tectonics? Things aren't adding up...gloss over it out fo fear or seek out the truth."

      Logical fallacy. Your question assumes Adam was real (which I agree with) and if that is true, the Sumerians could not have been before him.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
    • just sayin

      I think it did originate the way the Bible says it does. I don't have a problem with other peoples having similar stories. My problem is with your dating and you're contention you can prove they borrowed it.

      Can we possibly turn this conversation back to theology?
      .
      History/theology clearly establishes this...am I missing something??????????? I guess we will have to start over. When do you think the OT was written?

      We are tlaking about theology...the origins of yours in particular.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Topher

      You posit: But that's why you have to take anything within the historical sciences with a grain of salt. It more than likely will change tomorrow.

      What's a 'historical' science? Newton's laws of motions still describe the motions of the planets or a car accident very accurately. They don't explain everything. Do you assert that gravity is not real because Newtonian mechanics are not comprehensive in all situtations?

      That is a farcical position.

      Models are refined. Rarely are they discarded and old models that work well enough continue to be used.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • Topher

      Who invited me?

      "so now you are saying that there is no varifyable data to support evolution. That really is just you burying yourhead in the sand."

      What's the evidence? If you have some I'd suggest you go claim those million dollar rewards people are offering for it. I'm guessing you are talking about macro evolution, right?

      July 13, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, without evidence of existence, your god is nothing more than the creation of fallible man. You choose to believe the bible as truth, but no one has provided any evidence that any of the supernatural aspects of the bible ever happened. I've seen a lot of personal interpretation, a lot of ignorance and a lot of flat-out lies, but no proof.

      You have your own reasons for belief, and I respect that. However, you claim that a 2000 year old book is true, though it was based on oral tradition and written and transcribed by many unknown hands then edited, abridged and censored by men with a personal agenda. In the same breath you deny scientific discoveries that are scrutinized, verified and reviewed by people who are more than happy to find fault. Can you understand why people might question your judgment?

      July 13, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
    • Who invited me?

      topher
      You are now denying that actual people who we know existed, didn't exist in favor of your mythical people who you can't know existed.
      What irony and shows the true power of religion to hijack logic and reaason.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • just sayin

      Logical fallacy. Your question assumes Adam was real (which I agree with) and if that is true, the Sumerians could not have been before him.
      -

      Okay now I am calling troll. This logic is of a child or a person just trolling. You cannot possible be an adult and have this form of logic. Because it is contrary to your bible, it must be false. WOW. However reality is what it is whether you wish to see it.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • tiny bubbles

      Hey,
      Topher won't concede a single point. Don't you all realize he is just another atheist having fun with you?

      July 13, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • llɐq ʎʞɔnq

      Hell is a mythological place which existed in many cultures, Greek, Babylonian and Hebrew. The Jews fused the fires of Gehenna, (which was a trash pile outside of Jerusalem, which burned 24h a day), with Sheol, (also Jewish), and the Greek "underworld".
      Put in oven. Bake for 5 minutes. Out pops hell. Be very afraid. Raaaaaarh.
      When are you people gonna get a biblical education about bible myths ?

      July 13, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • just sayin

      tiny bubbles

      Hey,
      Topher won't concede a single point. Don't you all realize he is just another atheist having fun with you?

      .
      yeah I finally realized before my last post. Little pri k got me. LOl and I am the one that usually baits. Fair enough. Good going Topher or whoever you are. lol

      July 13, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • Topher

      tallulah13

      "You choose to believe the bible as truth, but no one has provided any evidence that any of the supernatural aspects of the bible ever happened. I've seen a lot of personal interpretation, a lot of ignorance and a lot of flat-out lies, but no proof."

      What about the verifiable witnesses? Do you just throw them away?

      "However, you claim that a 2000 year old book is true, though it was based on oral tradition and written and transcribed by many unknown hands then edited, abridged and censored by men with a personal agenda"

      Actually, we know who most of the authors are. We don't know who wrote Job and we're not sure about a few of the OT books like Samuel and Kings.

      "In the same breath you deny scientific discoveries that are scrutinized, verified and reviewed by people who are more than happy to find fault. Can you understand why people might question your judgment?"

      If I felt that were always true, I might be swayed on more things. But the problem is someone digs up a tooth and says it must be the missing link from an unknown human-like species and by that tooth we know man evolved from apes, that these people only liked mastadon meat and had a high gay population. We can't know any of that from a tooth. But all the evolutionists start slapping each other on the back and "peer reviewing" the evidence and "confirming" it.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • Rolph Eczema

      Why would you say that, bubbles? Religious people never give in on any point. They tenaciously continue to defend everything. That is their pattern.

      It is very improbable that an atheist could continue a Poe troll that long without giving himself away.

      Topher is Christian. He really believes that nonsense. He is willing to lie and say he was an atheist, which is clearly untrue based on his radically incorrect assertions about what atheists do and think. He is the real deal, a tanglebrain who has all of the answers and no evidence.

      He even thinks that his book is true because characters in the book were eyewitnesses, which means that the book is true because the characters wroite the book, just like Holden Caulfield wrote "Catcher In The Rye", and if he lied, other characters in that book would have called him on it. No logical problems there.

      July 13, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @just sayin

      I don't believe the assertion that the Sumerian culture existed before 6,000 BCE stands up to close scruitiny.

      It is difficult to go further back than the invention of writing Ca. 3200 BCE for specific details. Doubtless there were people in the area. DNA analysis indicates african migration into the area in the region of 90,000 – 55,000 years ago.

      You might find this interesting:

      July 13, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • Rolph Eczema

      @Topher -" What about the verifiable witnesses?"

      How did you verify the verifiable witnesses? There is absolutely no mention of them anywhere but in the Bible. The Bible is true because characters in the Bible say it is true? The only historically verifiable character in the Gospels is Pilate, and nothing that remains about him even hint at Christianity, or Jesus, just that he probably fell out of favor with Rome years later.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
    • just sayin

      Rolph Eczema

      Then he has the mind and rational of a child.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
    • just sayin

      don't believe the assertion that the Sumerian culture existed before 6,000 BCE stands up to close scruitiny.

      It is difficult to go further back than the invention of writing Ca. 3200 BCE for specific details. Doubtless there were people in the area. DNA analysis indicates african migration into the area in the region of 90,000 – 55,000 years ago.
      .
      I know, I never said the Sumerians went back 6000 years. I was speaking of when his OT was created vs 2500 to 3500 BCE.

      I did not factor in that Topher might not understand what plagiarism was and how it discredits the authors

      July 13, 2012 at 3:10 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @TOPHER
      Once again, you've chosen to ignore my posting.
      Do you accept that the age of a tree can be reliably determined by counting growth rings?
      How do you account for the impossibility of mankind's genetic diversity developing over 4,000 years?

      July 13, 2012 at 3:15 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      "And yet so many hold to evolution."

      go to talkorigins.org, get yourself educated about evolution instead of listening to creationist lies about it.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • Topher

      It's true. I'm a born-again, Bible believing and thu.mping fundamental Christian. I not only believe the Bible is true but it is the word of God. And thus I will hold it above anything man says on any subject.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:17 pm |
    • just sayin

      As well as the number of species that would have had to been on the ark...ALONG with the adaptations of the animals in the different part sof the world. It a matter of a couple of thousands years the bear morphed into polar bears, grizzlies etc. Not to mention the animals made it to Australia and became who they are. And the beat goes on. I guess the dinos were on the list of the ark so that explains them dying off just 4000 years ago or so? But then again that doesn't explain the dinos in the ocean. I wonder if Adam had a pet dino liek Fred Flintstone.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @just sayin,

      I thought this analysis:
      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg&w=640&h=360]

      Was a though provoking thesis on the evolution of the Old Testament.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      just saying, why do you keep repeating the same questions over and over again to every Christian on these articles, then turn around and reject what we tell you? Another thing, isn't your handle that of a Christians?

      July 13, 2012 at 3:22 pm |
    • just sayin

      Topher

      It's true. I'm a born-again, Bible believing and thu.mping fundamental Christian. I not only believe the Bible is true but it is the word of God. And thus I will hold it above anything man says on any subject.

      .
      Yep def an Atheist troll

      July 13, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher. there is no proof that your "verifiable witnesses" even existed. You have a lot of hearsay, and a lot of myth-spinning, but not a single verifiable witness, and not a single shred of evidence. Do you honestly believe everything you read if it claims to be true? Or do you only believe it's true when it says what you want to hear?

      July 13, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
    • just sayin

      HeavenSent

      just saying, why do you keep repeating the same questions over and over again to every Christian on these articles, then turn around and reject what we tell you? Another thing, isn't your handle that of a Christians?
      .

      Actually I have asked you and your response made no sense and wasn't even biblical accurate. *Unless it was the fake that answered me* If you are following this thread then you will see what I am asking and how Topher has responded. Actually we pretty much have wrapped it up. I was trying to understand his thought process and rational. I accept his answer. If there is anything contrary to the bible, it simply isnt true to him. That pretty much narrows it down...emphasis on "narrow".

      As for my handle, it belongs to whoever wishes to use it. No one owns or has a right to a particular handle. You are well aware of this lol

      July 13, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, why do you offer answers when the only honest answer you have is "I'm a born-again, Bible believing and thu.mping fundamental Christian. I not only believe the Bible is true but it is the word of God. And thus I will hold it above anything man says on any subject."

      That simple statement shows that you have no rational answers, just an immutable, irrational belief in something that SHOULD be questioned if it's considered to be an authority. You shouldn't offer answers if you are unwilling to ask questions for yourself.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • just sayin

      "You shouldn't offer answers if you are unwilling to ask questions for yourself"
      .
      BINGO!

      July 13, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • Topher

      Tellulah

      I asked if anyone had theological questions. The discussion turned into one on the authority of scripture. That's fine. I answer what I can, but I don't claim to have all the answers. And as far as asking questions myself, I've already done all of that when I first became interested in Christianity. I've since come to believe the Bible is the word of God and I think there's plenty of evidence to come to that conclusion. If you reject them, that's up to you.

      Hope you have a great day, but I've got to run. Gotta go to work soon. God bless.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • just sayin

      Thank you Topher, I do appreciate it.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Topher, theology includes dealing with the veracity of what you claim. If your god contradicts what is known about the universe, shouldn't we wonder why?

      I get that you questioned until you found what you wanted to believe. The problem is that you stopped questioning. You decided this is what you wanted to think, and that was the end of it. This leaves you incapable of defending your belief, because your belief is stagnant while world moves on and what is known about the world expands every day. Saying "god did it" doesn't hold the same authority as it did back before we gained a basic understanding of the natural phenomena that continues to shape our universe.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Topher wrote, (regarding evolution) " What's the evidence? If you have some I'd suggest you go claim those million dollar rewards people are offering for it. I'm guessing you are talking about macro evolution, right?"

      First of all, post the scientific definition of "macro" evolution, and include the scientific website you get it from>

      Secondly, if you, or any of the ignorant fundiots has peer-reviewed data that falsifies evolution, post it. I will personally buy your ticket to Oslo to pick up your Nobel Prize.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
  18. UK Dave & my fellow scientists

    SUDDENLY I'M INTO SONG-WRITING !!!!
    SUDDENLY, I CREATED Facebook(THE SCOUSE LYRICS) to save our Universe – from you lot!
    SUNG IN UK LIVERPOOL'S BROAD SCOUSE ACCENT ...
    (solo)
    Gerrin' ter know yer!
    Gerrin' ter know all abou' yer!
    Gerrin' ter like yer!
    Gerrin' ter hope yer like me!

    Gerrin' ter know yer!
    Purrin' it my way!
    Bu' nicely!
    Yerrrrr precisely
    My cuppa tea!

    Gerrin' ter know yer!
    Gerrin' ter know all abou' yer!
    Gerrin' ter like yer!
    Gerrin' ter hope yer like me!

    Gerrin' ter know yer!
    Purrin' it my way!
    Bu' nicely!
    Yerrrrr precisely
    My cuppa tea!

    Gerrin' ter know yer!
    Gerrin' ter feel free an' easy!
    When I am with yer!
    Gettin' ter know wha' ter sing!

    Haven' yer noticed!
    Suddenly I'm brigh' an' breezy!
    Because of all the beaurriful an' new
    Things I'm learnin' abou' yer
    Day by day!

    (all join in)
    Gerrin' ter know yer!
    Gerrin' ter feel free an' easy!
    When I am with yer!
    Gerrin' ter know wha' ter sing

    Haven' yer noticed!
    Suddenly I'm brigh' an' breezy!
    Because of all the beaurriful an' new
    Things I'm learnin' abou' yer
    Day by day!

    Find these Scouse lyrics@Facebook(THE SCOUSE LYRICS) too!

    July 13, 2012 at 10:03 am |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Dave, a translation from fake Cockney into Scouser sadly falls on deaf ears here.

      Never before has a boy wanted more.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • bronybusters

      UK Dave is brony/TheCapitalist/Unknown and others.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
  19. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things says

    See prayer change a dog at saladandchips.com.

    July 13, 2012 at 9:37 am |
    • Who invited me?

      your screen name is a lie

      July 13, 2012 at 9:46 am |
    • Mat

      So is yours.

      July 13, 2012 at 10:18 am |
    • Satan is waitin!

      That website is hillllllarious! Funny stuff.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
  20. Doc Vestibule

    "This talent comes from religion."
    The Squamish natives in North Vancouver make some magnificent non-religious wood carvings.

    July 13, 2012 at 9:21 am |
    • Satan is waitin!

      I hate when people thank god for their success or talent. No way it could have come from unique genes or honing a particular skill set. Nope had to be god...whatever.

      July 13, 2012 at 9:42 am |
    • Mat

      Only perverts hate God.

      July 13, 2012 at 10:19 am |
    • Mike from CT

      Genes, yes because Shaq's mother was 7.2 and could dunk a basketball.

      And you believe it
      And it was by Shaq's requests in the womb that made him so tall.

      And you don't believe in God?

      July 13, 2012 at 11:28 am |
    • What's a brony?

      I've heard many musicians say their talent(usually speaking about their singing voice) came from God(if they believe).

      Why do atheists get so ticked off when people do? Control freaks much?

      July 13, 2012 at 11:42 am |
    • bronybusters

      Delusion much brony?

      If I claim my talents come from Thor, that's true too?

      I regularly hear old people claim things like eating pickles was the secret to their longevity. That's true too?

      You are quite the idiot, little boy.

      July 13, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Satan is waitin!, talent didn't come from swimming to shore, frying your brain in the scorching sun, while you had no food or water to slither miles to the nearest shade of trees. If evolution were true that would be the reason so many atheists are fools.

      July 13, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • just sayin

      HeavenSent

      Satan is waitin!, talent didn't come from swimming to shore, frying your brain in the scorching sun, while you had no food or water to slither miles to the nearest shade of trees. If evolution were true that would be the reason so many atheists are fools.

      >

      And we have the crazy lady again

      July 13, 2012 at 4:04 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I posted this in the wrong place. Let's try again...

      If HS wasn't such a nasty, hateful piece of work, I'd really feel sorry for her.

      July 13, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.