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August 10th, 2012
10:56 AM ET

Tennessee mosque opens after 2 years of controversy

Editor's note: CNN's Soledad O'Brien chronicles the dramatic fight over a mosque in the heart of the Bible Belt. "Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door" airs on CNN at 8 ET/PT Sunday night.

By Moni Basu, CNN

(CNN)–Saleh Sbenaty was asked more than once Friday how he slept the night before. He didn't.

How could he when a longtime dream was about to be fulfilled?

Friday afternoon, Sbenaty and other Muslims in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, entered a brand new mosque, Tennessee, and fell in prayer to their knees.

They'd waited more than two years for the opening of their new Islamic center, delayed by legal wrangling and anti-Muslim sentiment that surfaced through protests, arson and vandalism.

Friday, Sbenaty, a mosque board member, struggled for words that adequately captured his excitement. So did his daughter, Lema.

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"Oh my goodness it's gorgeous. It's gorgeous," she said entering the prayer room for the first time Friday.

It was sanctuary.

She bowed her head to the red carpet in prayer pose, tears filling her eyes, her voice quivering.

"We've come such a long way from where we were to where we are now," she told CNN. "And I mean this is the fruits of our labor. It's emotional because we never thought we'd be here this fast. It's absolutely overwhelming."

Others streamed in at 1 p.m. for afternoon prayers.

A sign says the maximum capacity is 636. Saleh Sbenaty expected between 400 and 500 on the first day.

No more were they crammed into one room of a small building. They took off their shoes and placed them in rows and rows of racks and entered the prayer room. Among them were non-Muslim visitors who came to show their support. One wore a T-shirt sporting a slogan saying as much.

Saleh Sbenaty sat among the men on the front row as the imam began the prayers by recalling all that has happened. He reminded his congregation that no challenge in life was too great to overcome.

Not once in the long and stressful process to build the center had Sbenaty given up hope, though sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel seemed woefully dim.

"We never had doubt," he said. "We are citizens of this great country. We are believers of the constitution."

The 12,000 square-foot center next to Grace Baptist Church on Veals Road is still not fully furnished and is lacking an audio system. But it was important, Sbenaty said, to have Friday prayers inside the new facility during Ramadan, Islam's holy month, which ends August 19.

The center plans a grand opening in a few weeks when everything is in place.

Murfreesboro's Muslims had outgrown their older and much smaller space tucked away from a road in the southwest part of town. In 2009, they purchased 15 acres of land for a new Islamic center a few miles to the east. Construction began the following year.

The plans were to eventually grow the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro to 52,000 square feet and will include the mosque, school, gym and a swimming pool.

But from the start, the new center divided this small city 35 miles southeast of Nashville that has 104,000 people, more than 140 churches and one mosque.

Opponents of the mosque protested, citing zoning concerns and worries about radical Islam.

Proponents cried religious intolerance.

Early on, Kevin Fisher, who led the protests, said opponents are going to contest "every brick that's laid."

Tennessee Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey didn't mince words, either.

"You could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, way of life, a cult, whatever you want to call it," he said during his failed run for governor.

A fire at the construction site destroyed an earth mover and damaged three other vehicles. Authorities determined it was arson.

A sign announcing the new center was vandalized. The message said: "Not welcome."

Some residents filed a lawsuit to stop the new mosque. Later, a local judge stopped the permitting process. Then, a federal judge stepped in and ordered the construction to continue.

The Muslim community in Murfreesboro was in shock. Some had lived in the area for 30 years. Their kids were born there, raised there.

"The last two years were exceptional, as the sentiment of anti-Islam and anti-Muslim in this country was growing," Sbenaty said.

But he said that sentiment was not shared by the majority of people in Murfreesboro.

The excitement about Friday's prayers was palpable in the Muslim community - after being under the microscope for so long.

And there was a collective sigh of relief, although Sbenaty said security concerns remain high after everything they have been through and after a mosque in Joplin, Missouri, was burned to the ground earlier this week.

"Yes, we are very concerned because we have been also the subject of vandalism, arson, bomb threats, intimidation, bullying," Sbenaty said. "You call it. Every single act of intimidation, you know, was actually inflicted upon us."

Lema Sbenaty said she had heard about plans to build a mosque since she was a little girl. She hoped that now that it was finally open, the house of worship could serve as a place to heal.

"Certainly there are lot of issues to be dealt with in our community," she said. "Perhaps we can start to build bridges."

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And yet another member of the Muslim community, Essam Fathy, said he was proud to be living in America.

"Of course, you question your beliefs, you question your faith when the opposition becomes so vocal," he said. "No matter what happened, God had his way."

He went on to talk about the power of the U.S. constitution. It was the freedoms afforded to people in this country that allowed the mosque to rise.

It was not just words, he said. It was real. As was the domed building where he said his prayers Friday.

CNN's George Howell and John Murgatroyd contributed to this report.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Islam • Mosque

soundoff (657 Responses)
  1. Suzan

    I hope someone burns the mosque down.... Islam does not belong to the west!

    August 10, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
    • Judith

      Suzan, bigotry or prejudice in any form is more than a problem; it is a deep-seated evil within our society.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:26 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Tennessee oh Tennessee. They will, and atheists will supply the gas.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:29 pm |
    • justsayin

      I hope your church burns to the ground Suzan or better yet your house. Yeah it's not nice is it. American's like you bring shame to our country.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:29 pm |
    • Shakira

      Way to endorse Domestic terrorism there Suzan, hope the feds visit you soon.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:38 pm |
    • Simran

      Yup, Suzan.Bcoz you are the ruler of the wild wild west!!! So how can we have innocent people setting homes in the Suzanland???

      August 11, 2012 at 9:04 am |
  2. Ahmed Akmar

    May Allah lead everyone to Islam insallah one day and take over America

    August 10, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Sign me up! I'd make a good Muslim. Kill all the Christians! See?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:31 pm |
    • WASP

      TROLL

      August 10, 2012 at 5:35 pm |
    • Simran

      And there goes another Eastern counterpart of Suzan!!! We should organize a feud of the two who want to rule the west!!!

      Oh wait, there already is a feud!

      August 11, 2012 at 9:08 am |
  3. conoclast

    I give the new mosque about 2 weeks in this current religio-political climate. Some deluded christian soldier will 'march as to war' and bomb it in the name of Jesus-and-Southern-womanhood...or something equally psychotic. Bets?

    August 10, 2012 at 5:18 pm |
    • Joe

      For those of you grammer and spelling police you will notice a few typos but if thats all you are hear for then I care not for your petty thoughts. Good Day, Joe.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
    • Muhammad

      Yeah, a lot of Southern Baptist think the south won the civil war and that there is no freedom of religion in America. That President Obama should be a slave and not President of the USA.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:27 pm |
  4. Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

    Tennessee
    Tennessee
    There ain't no place I'd rather be
    Oh baby won't you carry me-e
    Back to Tennessee

    August 10, 2012 at 5:11 pm |
    • onehippypoet

      Tom Tom the pipers son
      Stole a pig
      and away it run
      To Tennessee
      where they were married
      and lived happily ever after
      Until breakfast when tom tom
      had a hankerin for bacon

      August 10, 2012 at 5:18 pm |
  5. us_1776

    Start exhibiting a more secular appearance in public and maybe people will learn to tolerate your religion a little better.

    .

    August 10, 2012 at 4:43 pm |
    • Nabun

      That is so funny, like americans dont display their religion in public. You are such a moron.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:56 pm |
    • sam

      Get rid of your ugly hipster haircut and conform, and maybe society won't label you an asshole every time you're just getting a froyo.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • Josh

      Please, everyone in this country is trying to "out Christian" each other. Every politician is trying to prove how Christian they are 24/7 What I think you really mean to say is, "Stop being so un-Christian."

      August 10, 2012 at 5:02 pm |
    • Joe

      The inevitable debate of God, No God! No matter what this debate will never be settlted in life! To many mysteries surround the human animal. Relegion of all sorts are contradictory and hypochritical and Atheism is nothing more than a Godless relegion! It's easy to explain the human body. Evolution can explain why are bodies are the way they are. But at age 50 Science, Atheist, nor anyone else has satisfactorily explained why my brain, my conscious, or my species exist in it's current fashion. Science is not sure the brain in it's grand entireity can ever be recreated or duplicated. No other creatue can even be proven to have a conscious or if they do it's rudimentary at best. So simply put I don't know the true answers and neither do any of you. If t all ends at death then so be it. But if we are simply products of evolution we are the luckiest species in the universe as thus far no ther species even compares. Good Day!

      August 10, 2012 at 5:20 pm |
  6. Dr. Gary Hurd

    "Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son,"

    Christians in the Democratic party are likely to be liberals. Nearly all members of the Democratic Party are Christians. My wife, Christian, Democrat, and liberal, maintains that no conservative (as commonly refered to) can be a Christian because they so obviously ignore, or even deny what Jesus taught.

    August 10, 2012 at 4:42 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Jesus would probably see our partisan politics in much the same way as he viewed the Sadducees abd Pharisees.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Can't believe I'm saying this but I think you are right Tom

      August 10, 2012 at 5:16 pm |
    • Prayer changed my oil. Alleluia, amen.

      Christians in the Dem party are likely to be liberal.

      No sh1t Sherlock. Everyone in the Dem party is likely to be liberal. Did you get that PhD on-line by any chance ?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
    • Damien

      Apparently you do not understand American politics, or just choose to ignore the facts. Liberals are the ones that have pushed God out of every facet of American life, not Conservatives. Liberals are the ones that are forcing religious organizations to pay for contraception for women even if it goes against their faith. It is always the liberals. You do not see the Conservatives pushing for gay marriage. That is also you weak willed liberals. If God wanted Bill and Scott to tie the knot he would have said so. You liberals are turning the US into a modern day Gomorrah. So take your gay welfare check cashing baby killing tree hugging socialist dribble elsewhere. God bless! You $#$#@

      August 10, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
    • YeahRight

      "You do not see the Conservatives pushing for gay marriage. That is also you weak willed liberals. "

      This just proves Conservatives are dumb. Marriage was defined by the US Supreme Court as a civil right. Recognized federal civil rights law in the United States is grounded in the U.S. Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. By this standard, marriage has long been established as a civil right.

      The operative constitutional text is section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified in 1868. The relevant passages read as follows:

      No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

      A federal appeals court on May 31st ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional because it denies equal rights for legally married same-sex couples, making it likely that the Supreme Court will consider the politically divisive issue for the first time in its next term. This most likely will be decided in the courts and since most courts keep ruling in gays favor they should be able to over turn all the unconstitutional laws prejudice bigots have been trying to pass.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:22 pm |
    • foxierthanfox

      @Damian – I really feel bad for God. Where is ACLU when God's rights are being suppressed?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:24 pm |
  7. Doc Vestibule

    OK – no speed read for today, so I dunno where to put this off topic post.
    But it makes my brain hurt so much, I have to share it.
    Dr. Ann Neuhaus is losing her medical license because she did not force a pregnant 10 year old, mentally disabled girl who was ra/ped by her uncle to carry the child to term.
    God bless Operation Rescue and the fine people in teh state of Kansas, eh?

    August 10, 2012 at 4:28 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Wow, just wow.

      I could see this happening in a lot of different states unfortunately. Probably happen in texas next.

      Is there a link to the story?

      August 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • captain america

      What part of Canada is Kansas in. There's your sign

      August 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • Answer

      Well well well.. the little american wants to teach geography as well as being the lead honcho in a circle jerk.

      Why use the old alternate name there eh captain?

      August 10, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • sam

      Nice try, cap troll, but Canada appears to not be quite as backwards as some states in the US.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:52 pm |
    • captain america

      Even a super hero gets a vacation, you moron. There's your sign

      August 10, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
    • sam

      Cap, you know superheroes? How do they tolerate your bullshit?

      August 10, 2012 at 4:58 pm |
    • captain america

      Sam you know mouthwash, what brand do you use to get the taste of foreign butt off your tongue? There's your sign

      August 10, 2012 at 5:01 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Here is a portion of a news report. Doc's description is a little skewed it seems:

      The administrative judge concluded in February that Neuhaus performed inadequate mental health exams in 2003 on 11 patients, aged 10 to 18. The judge said Neuhaus' records didn't contain the information necessary to show that she did thorough exams, and the patients' care was "seriously jeopardized."

      "Her actions clearly show a disregard for her patients' safety and care, which causes her to be a threat to any future patients she might have," said Reese Hays, the attorney on the board's litigation team who presented the case against Neuhaus.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:05 pm |
    • sam

      cap, it has little to do with Doc and more to do with your crapass trolling.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
    • sam

      Bill, seems like you just picked out whatever would make you look superior to Doc. Link to story, pls...

      August 10, 2012 at 5:10 pm |
    • WASP

      for anyone interested in making their own opinion on the case of the abortion doctor, here is a link to the story.

      http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/06/25/505092/kansas-doctor-loses-license-for-protecting-privacy-of-abortion-patients/

      August 10, 2012 at 5:15 pm |
    • WASP

      @bill: you were being dishonest with your cherrypicking of that story bill; i think that would be called lying which is a sin.
      the doctor was attempting to protect her patients during a time when the......i believe attorny general whom was anti-choice was investigating clinics and subpeoning their medical records which would have exposed these young ladies to harm by the religious community.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:19 pm |
  8. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Praying supports more delusions

    August 10, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
    • just sayin

      It is a wonderful Truth posted over an obvious lie. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
    • Answer

      "Must defend the Truth" - LOL

      So sad – the religious clowns that are here to defend their delusions. XD

      August 10, 2012 at 4:08 pm |
    • just sayin

      Where are you from answer. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 4:19 pm |
    • Answer

      It's a well known fact of where I am from.. just ask that little hater XD

      And there is no god blessing anybody .. it's a hint to you since you can't seem to figure that one out. You may want to just say. "I want to say some nice things but I'm an idiot that uses his imaginary friend to do it."

      August 10, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
    • just sayin

      I was hoping you could help me find my pants. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • just sayin

      I notice it does not take too long for non believers to degenerate to ignorance. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • just sayin

      And by ignorance I mean 'disagreeing with me'.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • just sayin

      Everybody disagrees with you, steal a name you lose a lot of credibility. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • just sayin

      I should know, so now I warn others. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 5:11 pm |
  9. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things .

    August 10, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
    • Huebert

      Lets test your hypothesis. Pray that the turquoise stones in my ring turn into diamonds. As soon as that happens I will devote my life to which ever religion you choose.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:40 pm |
    • chris hitchens

      @huebert
      No one cares what you do.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      God does not care about you Huebert.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • Prayer changes things

      Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things. Conclusive proof posted by name thief above.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • Prayer changes things

      Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things. Conclusive proof posted by name thief listed above.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:56 pm |
    • Huebert

      @chris

      Obviously you do, otherwise why bother to comment.

      @atheism
      Well considering he is imaginary I suppose he doesn't. But I digress, You say that prayer changes things all I'm asking you do to is to preform a feat you have claimed to be possible. You can do it, right, or are you just spouting off?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
    • Prayer changes things

      God will enjoy punishing Huebert.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:58 pm |
    • Huebert

      @atheism

      Again not the issue, please stop throwing out red herrings. Do you have the ability to change something through prayer? If so i have constructed a simple test in which you can prove your position.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:02 pm |
    • just sayin

      Huebert, you are totally ignorant as to what prayer is all about, prayer is never about testing God or enriching yourself. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 4:05 pm |
    • Answer

      "God will enjoy punishing Huebert."

      So hilarious. Only in your dreams will that ever happen. LOL

      August 10, 2012 at 4:07 pm |
    • Huebert

      @just Sayin

      I'm not testing god I'm testing a claim made by atheism isn't healthy. If prayer cannot be used to enrich ones self pray that the turquoise stones turn into obsidian, which is nearly worthless but still pretty.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      I postulate that if Huebert were to pray consistently to have his turquoise changed into diamonds that at some point he would recognize his attachment to materialism and change

      August 10, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • just sayin

      You loose huebie, move on or grow up. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Bill

      So prayer can't effect material objects?

      August 10, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • Huebert

      @JS

      How exactly does one "loose"? I believe you meant to say I lose, which is untrue we haven't begun yet. Atheism isn't healthy, Who I'm guessing is also you just sayin, made a claim. I have asked for a demonstration. I have then been the target of personal attacks and threats by proxy, none of which actually address my request for a demonstration. If the demonstration i have requested is unfeasible please suggest another type.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
    • Jesus

      ~Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs! .

      August 10, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
    • just sayin

      Go away Huebert you have been shown to be the self centered fraud you are. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 4:35 pm |
    • Bizarre

      Don't pray for "stuff"?

      Here are hundreds of testimonials on how to miraculously and quickly sell your house by burying a small statue of St. Joseph (upside down) in your yard and saying special prayers. There is even an "Original St. Joseph Statue Home Sales Kit" and several variations available to facilitate your devotions:

      http://stjosephstatue.com/letters.mv

      August 10, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • kindless

      Actually, atheism is wonderful for children and all people! Prayer as it turn out, is just a time-sucker-upper. Who would've thought.

      Atheists have strong minds and are good at helping weak-minded people work through their struggles with other people or the imaginary forces or obstacles that men have made up. Atheists encourage people to take responsibility for their actions within society instead of having their misdeeds excused and often hidden within their religion (comforting their weak minds, but simultaneously disserving society).

      Break the matrix of deception by all religions.

      If the thought leaving your imaginary friends behind is just too much, or makes you want to go p00py, then try Atheism Lite™ (agnosticism) for a period of time to ease your way into a much more rewarding, peaceful life.

      It is written. RIF

      heavenSnot

      August 10, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • Huebert

      @JS

      How is me asking you to prove your self self centered or fraudulent? But again I digress, neither my behavior nor my motivations are at issue here.

      What is at issue is the claim that prayer can change things. You say that prayer cant be used to enhance wealth, so pray that a semi-valuable turquoise stone turns into a non-valuable obsidian stone, a prayer that, if answered, would decrease my wealth. If this request is also unfeasible it can be modified.

      Remember I am only asking you to do what you have claimed to be capable of, to change something through prayer.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:54 pm |
    • just sayin

      I pray every day to find my pants and sometimes I do therefore prayer works. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 4:55 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      @Huebert Are you not a material thing?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
    • Prayer changed my oil. Alleluia, amen.

      I was out of coupons, and needed an oil change. Praise Jeebus.

      Amen

      August 10, 2012 at 5:14 pm |
    • Huebert

      @Bill

      Point taken. So you are saying that prayer can effect a person. Well pray that I grow one inch taller. I simply want a demonstration of the claim that prayer changes things, please prove this claim.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:23 pm |
  10. Shakira

    I know I am most likely in the minority but I have no trouble reconciling my faith with evolution. Who are we to tell Allah (swt) that he could not make evolution happen.

    August 10, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
    • Science

      It's pretty simple actually. The allah you know from the koran in no way mentions evolution or even hints at it. All your book says is that allah was there and then he poofed everything into existence. If there is a god and it is because of him/her/it that evolution occurred, then it's no god we've met or spoken with yet.

      THAT's how you can't really reconcile your religion with evolution unless doing some serious mental gymnastics.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
    • truth be told

      The allah in the koran is not THE God of the Bible

      August 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • truth be told

      The allah in the koran is not THE God of the Bible !

      August 10, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
    • Shakira

      In your world Science, in mine I can reconcile just fine.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Science

      @Truth

      Yes it is, get your facts straight

      @Shakira

      Do you not live on the planet Earth?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • Shakira

      When I checked this morning I do so unless I am in some wierd time line yes. Why do you have an issue with the fact I can believe in God and Evolution.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
    • Science

      Issue? No, just pointing out the hypocrisy.

      I'm glad you can see the value in evolution and understand it's veracity, but you should understand that trying to link the two relies on you not being able to actually point out how to do this without pretending one doesn't exist to believe in the other. Doublethink at its finest.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
    • J.W

      Just because it does not talk about it in the Bible or Koran does not mean the ideas are mutually exclusive. It does not say in the Bible or Koran that evolution could not have happened either.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • Science

      @JW

      But it does, by recounting a completely different course of events then the ones we have been able to discover, it's completely different. They're pretty mutually exclusive ideas.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • Science

      I should probably clarify.

      I'm not necessarily precluding the idea that a sort of god might have helped evolution occur, We can't really "disprove" something like that. However, the god of the bible, koran, or other holy books is extremely likely not to exist.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:37 pm |
    • on judgement day

      look for science it will be one of the ones with the oh sh it look on its face.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
    • Science

      @Judgement

      Actually, I am fully prepared for the apocalypse (zombie apocalypse specifically). While you're praying and hoping you'll be raptured I'll be fighting crazy zombies. We'll see who is the sh.it look on their faces then.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • on judgement day

      You watch way too many B flicks, you know absolutely nothing about those times. It is rare to find an individual so obviously ignorant of Biblical prophecy yet so willing to put forth a stupid opinion that is laughable to those that have actually read the text.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:51 pm |
    • Science

      @Judgement

      Oh dear, are you off your meds again? Reading the insane ramblings of a mad man is not my idea of being "well versed in biblical prophecy". Furthermore, since this discussion was about evolution and creation, it's on the complete opposite end of the book you love so much.

      It's also way more likely for a zombie type apocalypse to happen (ever hear of mad cow disease?) then it ever will be for revelations to happen.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:56 pm |
    • on judgement day

      Merely pointing out that you do not have a clue as to what you were talking about but then again that is not unusual for you.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • Arj

      I can do that with no problem because I do not give absolute authority to neither scripture nor science. Both of them are written by us. So none of that can be perfect.

      Evolution actually indicates a super natural power controlling it. Just like iphone evolution guided by apple, God can guide the evolution.

      Why God has to guide the evolution? Why can not it evolve by itself. There are many stuff. Basic thing that comes to is, is tree came first or seed came first.

      For example reproduction system is a must for the evolution to work. How did the reproduction system evolve? It is self contradictory. Can someone who says that evolution is not guided, explain it?

      August 10, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • Science

      @Judgement

      You're terrible at this so let me help you. "pointing out" that I don't know what I'm talking about, without actually quoting what I got wrong, or even understanding the conversation topic in no way makes you look intelligent or even nominally good at debating. If you want to actually have a rational discussion where you don't try to attack my character, that's fine, I'd be more than happy to do so. If all you want to do is defend 2,000 idiot arabic nomads, that's also fine, but this will be my last response.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:06 pm |
    • on judgement day

      The following is a list of what you got right ...

      August 10, 2012 at 5:11 pm |
    • Science

      @Arj

      That's a nice story, it really is. LIke I pointed out earlier, I'm not necessarily precluding the idea of a god that helped begin evolution, just not any god we've ever seen (as shown through all th holy scriptures)

      As for your other questions about how a reproduction could evolve. Have you ever heard of Mitosis? It's entirely possible and probable that early single cellular life reproduced ase.xually, then over the course of millions upon millions of years, se.xes got introduced and became a reliable way to mix genes and spread traits quicker and disperse then throughout a population.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:11 pm |
    • Arj

      @Science
      What you said is possible. But there is a catch. We need to 2 ways of reproduction systems. One from the past and working. Second one for future and under development. The under development system takes many millions of years to start working. So it is hardly gives any advantage for current generation. Indeed it might be disadvantage because you have to maintain this useless parts in this body and carry them around:) So this can not be a candidate for natural selection.

      So all this makes sense when we see that some universal intelligence guiding these evolutionary things to happen, I have not heard about thing you mentioned. I would do some reading on that.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:20 pm |
    • Science

      @Arj

      Yes and no. You're almost there. Evolution does not have to be beneficial towards the species. Animals have gone extinct because they evolved faulty survival methods. Evolution is also clunky and isn't a smooth transition from one for to another, it doesn't work like that.

      Furthermore, that's how evolution always works when there's a new trait introduced. Some members have one way, other members have the other trait. Sometimes that trait is extinguished before it can take hold and spread, other times that trait pervades the population and over millions of years every member has some form of the trait.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:27 pm |
  11. Reality

    What instigated the attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon?

    And what drives today's 24/7 mosque/imam-planned acts of terror and horror?

    The koran, Mohammed's book of death for all infidels and Muslim domination of the world by any means.

    Muslims must clean up this book removing said passages admitting that they are based on the Gabriel myth and therefore obviously the hallucinations and/or lies of Mohammed.

    Then we can talk about the safety and location of mosques and what is taught therein.

    Until then, no Muslim can be trusted anytime or anywhere..................................

    August 10, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • just sayin

      If no Muslim can be trusted then no Christian, Jew, Hindu, or any other religious person can be trusted.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • William Demuth

      But the Jews, Sikh's, Christians and all the other cults can be trusted?

      NOT!! You loony tunes have been slaughtering each other for millenia.

      Believing in God is just a form of mental illness 😦

      August 10, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • just sayin

      No man can be trusted, all sin and fall short of the glory of God. God bless !

      August 10, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
    • venum to hypocrites

      How many in the 9/11 attack were American Muslims... and did any American Muslims provide to them any support in leau of the attacks??? none.. not even one...

      How many Muzlims since 9/11 from the United States have participated in any Islamic attack son US soil.. hardly none ...just a few which I could count on my hands...

      your kind of hyperbol is unnecessary ...and even harmful... cease and desist... I have enough trouble attacking hypocrites of my own faith of Christianity without your kind of hysterical non sense

      August 10, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • Dr. Gary Hurd

      Your paranoia is severe. It is your fearfulness that fuels attacks against random members of "the other" that in turn causes their paranoids to react just like you. If you could all just do this on some other world, the rest of us could live safe and happy without you.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • Reality

      As the koranic/mosque driven acts of terror and horror continue:

      The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

      ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

      and more recently

      1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

      1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

      2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

      3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles. 102,522 – 112,049 Iraqi civilians killed as of 9/16/2011/, mostly due to suicide bombers, land mines and bombs of various types, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

      4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

      5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

      6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

      7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

      8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

      9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

      10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

      11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

      12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

      13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

      14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

      15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

      16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

      17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

      18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

      19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

      20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

      21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

      22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) – Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

      23) "October 4, 2011, 100 die as a truck loaded with drums of fuel exploded Tuesday at the gate of compound housing several government ministries on a busy Mogadishu street. It was the deadliest single bombing carried out by the al Qaeda-linked al-Shabab group in Somalia since their insurgency began. "

      August 10, 2012 at 6:08 pm |
    • Reality

      The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

      From: http://necrometrics.com/warstatz.htm#u (required reading)

      The Muslim Conquest of India --->>>>

      "The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      Rank <<<Death Toll <Cause <<Centuries<<<Religions/Groups involved*

      1. 63 million Second World War 20C (Christians et al and Communists/atheists vs. Christians et al, Nazi-Pagan and "Shintoists")

      2. 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C (Communism)

      3. 40 million Genghis Khan 13C (Shamanism or Tengriism)

      4. 27 million British India (mostly famine) 19C (Anglican)

      5. 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Chinese folk religion)

      6. 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C ( Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion vs. a form of Christianity)

      7. 20 million Joseph Stalin 20C (Communism)

      8. 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C (Islam)

      9. 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C

      10. 16 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C (Christianity)

      11. 15 million First World War 20C (Christians vs. Christians)

      12. 15 million Conquest of the Americas 15C-19C (Christians vs. Pagans)

      13. 13 million Muslim Conquest of India 11C-18C

      14. 10 million An Lushan Revolt 8C

      15. 10 million Xin Dynasty 1C

      16. 9 million Russian Civil War 20C (Christians vs Communists)

      17. 8 million Fall of Rome 5C (Pagans vs. Christians)

      18. 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C (Christians)

      19. 7½ million Thirty Years War 17C (Christians vs Christians)

      20. 7½ million Fall of the Yuan Dynasty 14C

      *:" Is religion responsible for more violent deaths than any other cause?

      A: No, of course not – unless you define religion so broadly as to be meaningless. Just take the four deadliest events of the 20th Century – Two World Wars, Red China and the Soviet Union – no religious motivation there, unless you consider every belief system to be a religion."

      Q: So, what you're saying is that religion has never killed anyone.

      A: Arrgh... You all-or-nothing people drive me crazy. There are many doc-umented examples where members of one religion try to exterminate the members of another religion. Causation is always complex, but if the only difference between two warring groups is religion, then that certainly sounds like a religious conflict to me. Is it the number one cause of mass homicide in human history? No. Of the 22 worst episodes of mass killing, maybe four were primarily religious. Is that a lot? Well, it's more than the number of wars fought over soccer, or s-ex (The Trojan and Sabine Wars don't even make the list.), but less than the number fought over land, money, glory or prestige.

      In my Index, I list 41 religious conflicts compared with 27 oppressions under "Communism", 24 under Colonialism, 2 under "Railroads" and 2 under "Scapegoats". Make of that what you will."

      August 10, 2012 at 11:33 pm |
  12. Bill Maher Nails It

    Using nothing but logic nobody can refute this.

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvDtPz33w0&w=640&h=360]

    August 10, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
    • Henderson

      Great video!!!!!

      August 10, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
  13. William Demuth

    Christianity requires indoctrination

    This indoctrination is difficult to overcome once you have been subjected to it.

    Having raised my own children, and having several woman in my family that raise them for a living, I can assure you that you can teach a child to believe darn near anything if you keep them in a vacuum.

    This is why we must push back strongly against home schooling. Once parents are given carte blanche to indoctrinate a sequestered child it may be permanently damaged.

    Home schooling is merely a tool of these cults to promote their distorted and inaccurate world view.

    It needs to be banned.

    August 10, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
    • William Demuth

      I recall my son wondering why old pictues were black and white.

      I jokingly explained color was invented in 1958, and everything that happened before that was black and white.

      Several weeks later I realized he actually believed me.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
    • AverageJoe76

      William, you can't tell parents they cannot home-school. That's stepping on people's rights. Yeah, it screws the kids over... but parents should have the freedom to teach kids themselves if they want to. Although unfortunate if they have crappy parents/ teachers.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:25 pm |
  14. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes otherwise rational adults into believing in imaginery friends like children do.

    August 10, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • religion gets in the way

      What?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Prayer changes things

      Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things. Need proof, name stealing and posting obvious lies as above.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • Prayer changes things

      Praying to rocks does change things. Fact

      August 10, 2012 at 3:51 pm |
    • Jesus

      "Prayer changes things"

      ~Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs! .

      August 10, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
  15. Bobby

    In order for you to claim that god directed evolution you first have to prove with 100% certainty that god exists. Only after you have established that god exists can you claim that god did something.

    August 10, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
  16. AverageJoe76

    Yeah, there is absolutely no proof for God.

    August 10, 2012 at 2:26 pm |
    • ME II

      True, there isn't any evidence for God. What's your point?

      August 10, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
    • AverageJoe76

      @ ME II – My comment was supposed to rest nicely on top of Typical Christian's last post. But Chad beat me to the spot.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • ME II

      Oh, I see. Thnx.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:57 pm |
    • venum to hypocrites

      God provided me with evidence..it's in the bible... hidden in the bible.. 🙂 🙂 🙂

      August 10, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
  17. Chad

    Atheist: "Evolution is fact, if you dont believe it you're a moron"

    =>That is an EXTREMELY misleading and imprecise statement, which of course is why atheists make it so often. Why they are so resistant to learning the details and stating positions clearly, escapes me.

    Here are the facts:

    DEFINITIONS
    1. Evolution: is any change across successive generations in the inherited characteristics of biological populations.

    2. Evolutionism (atheist): is the atheistic worldview that says life developed without God and without purpose, namely that purely random genetic mutations preserved by natural selection is the process by which we have arrived at the current complexity of life from the first proto-cell.

    3. Theistic evolution: the theistic worldview that says life developed at the direction of God, either through direct intervention or by supernatural orchestration of natural processes.

    ============
    CONCLUSIONS
    A. #1 is an accepted scientific fact, by theists and atheists, importantly: it does not in and of itself describe how we got from initial proto-cell to current complexity, nor does it attempt to

    B. #2 (atheistic evolutionism) has a severe problem in that it needs to contend with a fossil record that is acknowledged by the paleontology community as reflecting extremely long periods of stasis, followed by extremely short periods of explosive change, the result of which is "new species appearing fully formed in the fossil record".
    This stasis-rapid change is known as "punctuated equilibrium" put forth by atheists Stephen Gold/ Niles Eldredge in 1972 and accepted as fact today.
    The acceptance of punctuated equilibrium put to death the then prevailing thought that gradual change was the evolutionary mechanism of speciation (Darwinian phyletic gradualism, which had held sway for >100 years, was utterly debunked)

    C. #3 is the ONLY theory that has support from the fossil record

    August 10, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Evolution is a fact.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      Same dishonest arguments, untestable assertions, and plain old stupidity from you chad.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
    • ME II

      Where did you get the term "Evolutionism"?

      August 10, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      He makes it up, same with attempting to pass off theistic evolution as something scientific instead of confirmatory bias.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • AverageJoe76

      @Chad – The problem is Chad, that if YOU want to dissprove evolution, then by all means, gain the education to do so, and challenge the scientists who bust their hump trying to figure things out the hard way. To debunk the Jesus-God hybrid, all I have to do, is be born in Uganda and be taught about some other God that is the 'Ultimate Truth'. But science is universal. Math is universal. The true language to everything is Math. Religion stops at borders, cultural lines, and logic. It can't be carried with us into outter space. It stops again and again. Science and math keep on going.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • I'm The Best!

      #2 works fine when looked at from a global perspective. With a drastic change in surroundings, there can easily be a (relatively) quick change from one species to another. If a drought wipes out 80% of a species in an area, and the drought persists, it wouldn't be surprising if the ones that had survived had evolved into a new species within a relatively small number of generations.

      You should also read the entire post by rufus firefly below, you might learn something.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "Where did you get the term "Evolutionism"?"

      =>I got the definition from Francis Collins, Director of the human genome project, where is wikipedias verison..

      It's an excellent way to distinguish between the atheistic and theistic views.. If you have another, let me know.

      Evolutionism refers to the biological concept of evolution,[1] specifically to a widely held 19th century belief that organisms are intrinsically bound to increase in complexity.[2] The belief was extended to include cultural evolution and social evolution.[3] In the 1970s the term Neo-Evolutionism was used to describe the idea "that human beings sought to preserve a familiar style of life unless change was forced on them by factors that were beyond their control".[4]
      The term is sometimes also colloquially used to refer to acceptance of the modern evolutionary synthesis, a scientific theory that describes how biological evolution occurs. In addition, the term is used in a broader sense to cover a world-view on a wide variety of topics, including chemical evolution as an alternative term for abiogenesis or for nucleosynthesis of chemical elements, galaxy formation and evolution, stellar evolution, spiritual evolution, technological evolution and universal evolution, which seeks to explain every aspect of the world in which we live.[5][6]
      Since the overwhelming majority of scientists accept the modern evolutionary synthesis as the best explanation of current data,[7] the term is seldom used in the scientific community; to say someone is a scientist implies acceptance of evolutionary views,[8] unless specifically noted otherwise. In the creation-evolution controversy, creationists often call those who accept the validity of the modern evolutionary synthesis "evolutionists" and the theory itself as "evolutionism."

      August 10, 2012 at 2:35 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      The problem with your argument is you are basing it on science, but at the same time saying that God can bend/break the rules as He wishes. If God can alter the results of any expirement, the expirement is meaningless. We are then left with "goddidit" and science is meaningless.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • *facepalm*

      If #3 is true, then the creator is either sadistic or not very omnipotent/omniscient. Otherwise we wouldn't have an appendix.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:42 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Chad's lying again. His "evolutionism" copy & paste from Wikipedia, if he actually took the time to read it, has nothing to do with Francis Collins. My guess is Chad just threw in Dr. Collins' name in a lame appeal to authority. In fact, Chad's own "reference" clearly indicates that the term "evolutionism" is "seldom used in the scientific community; to say someone is a scientist implies acceptance of evolutionary views."
      This is just more of Chad's dishonest Intelligent Design B.S.

      Liar, liar, pants on fire.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...and by the way, the fact that Francis Collins is an esteemed geneticist in no way means that his position on ID isn't just plain nutty. Richard Dawkins is a brilliant biologist, but I wouldn't let him remove my appendix.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:51 pm |
    • ME II

      @Chad,
      I'm having difficulty finding any Collins' use of the term, do you have a reference? thanks.

      Also, you state that only your #3 has evidence supporting it. Just to clarify, what evidence supports #3 but not #2? Thanks.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @ME II

      Be ready for a whole lot of confirmatory bias.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:14 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @ME II –

      What do you expect to achieve by engaging Chad? Seriously! Why not simply spend some time trying to nail Jell-O to a wall?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:18 pm |
    • Chad

      @ME II "I'm having difficulty finding any Collins' use of the term, do you have a reference? thanks."
      @Chad "http://biologos.org/questions/biologos-id-creationism"

      @ME II "IAlso, you state that only your #3 has evidence supporting it. Just to clarify, what evidence supports #3 but not #2? Thanks"
      @Chad "
      first: I have said it a million times, I'll say it again. I do not believe that animals/humans just materialized out of thin air and started walking/crawling around. That is NOT what #3 is saying.

      second: stasis and explosive change is precisely what we would expect to see from an orchestrated sequence of events by a creator. It is exactly what we would NOT expect to see if a purely naturalistic random mutation and natural selection was the process.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • Chad

      @lunchbreaker "The problem with your argument is you are basing it on science, but at the same time saying that God can bend/break the rules as He wishes. If God can alter the results of any expirement, the expirement is meaningless. We are then left with "goddidit" and science is meaningless."

      =>where do I say that?
      read it again..

      August 10, 2012 at 3:24 pm |
    • Rufus T. Firefly

      "It is exactly what we would NOT expect to see if a purely naturalistic random mutation and natural selection was the process"

      Why not? Why would you assume that changes in the selective environment are not often abrupt?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
    • just sayin

      Chad,

      "stasis and explosive change is precisely what we would expect to see from an orchestrated sequence of events by a creator. "

      So you are talking about magical things happening because a god just wills it therefore it is. What do you base these magical happenings on?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Especially since there is no timeline that can be used to predict the rate of change, especially in the phenotype. Chad doesn't understand evenbasic biology or genetics, so it's not a real big surprise.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
    • just sayin

      hawaiiguest

      Especially since there is no timeline that can be used to predict the rate of change, especially in the phenotype. Chad doesn't understand evenbasic biology or genetics, so it's not a real big surprise.

      ----

      Chad's "magic factor"

      August 10, 2012 at 3:31 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ME II – regarding Chad's "http://biologos.org/questions/biologos-id-creationism" reference.

      First – Francis Collins hasn't been associated with BioLogos since third-quarter 2009.
      Second – the BioLogos "team" is composed of no more than a few individuals educated in natural science.
      Third – the fact that this organization uses the term "evolutionism" betrays their focus, intent (dissemination of ID dogma), and ignorance. I'd lay Vegas odds that Collins has not and does not use the term "evolutionism".

      August 10, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • Really-O?

      I am left to wonder...how much of Chad's nonsense can be ascribed to dishonesty and how much to ignorance?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:37 pm |
    • Rufus T. Firefly

      This just came across my desk – appropriate reading for anyone interested in rapid evolutionary change. Chad, please inform us on exactly where, in the sequence of changes described in the article, God pointed his magic wand....

      See Change: Rapid Emergence of New Sea Star Species Illustrates Evolution's Power
      Two Australian starfish species diverged only 6,000 years ago, offering a glimpse of evolutionary history in the making

      ww.w.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=see-change-rapid-emergence&WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20120810

      August 10, 2012 at 3:38 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      Chad, maybe I misunderstood, you are saying that evolution by itself, without God, is not possible. So if evolution is based only on sceintific laws, but cannot work without divine intervention, then God has to bend scientific laws to get the end result of evolution He wanted. If He can bend/break any law He wants, why bring science into in the first place?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • just sayin

      Chad's "magic" explanation:

      3. Theistic evolution: the theistic worldview that says life developed at the direction of God, either through direct intervention or by supernatural orchestration of natural processes.
      --------
      su·per·nat·u·ral/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ə)rəl/Adjective: (of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

      There is no such thing as supernatural orchestration natural process. This falls under magical/faith thinking. The OT is 1 step above using caveman drawings on walls to explain the universe. You wouldnt trust a caveman to give you advice on car insurance (Geico), why would you trust them to explain the origins of us and the universe?????? Let us look when the OT was written.......yeah lets trust that as a good source. *rolling eyes*

      August 10, 2012 at 3:40 pm |
    • venum to hypocrites

      A person who argues with athiests is stupid.. 🙂
      yeah bub... You could do better by just living the life of Christ and pleasing him....and be ready to give an answer to them who asks you..for the reason for the hope in you... 🙂 🙂

      My short brief answers will make a much greater impact in another person's life than to try and persuade him in arguements..

      August 10, 2012 at 3:42 pm |
    • just sayin

      Really-O?

      I am left to wonder...how much of Chad's nonsense can be ascribed to dishonesty and how much to ignorance?

      ........

      Considering Chad posts the same crap and time after time shown to be incorrect...I would say majority of being simply dishonest. He believes in magical things from a god and will continue to lie to attempt to support his magical thinking.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
    • just sayin

      In Christ is found all wisdom. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • just sayin

      venum to hypocrites

      A person who argues with athiests is stupid
      .............

      A person who argues over something that require faith, has no faith to begin with. Chad clearly lacks faith and is lying to himself with his warped magic science thinking to re-enforce his lack of faith. Chad is why the belief blog is entertaining because we see Christians who lost or do not have an understanding what "faith" is or means. Chad is a fool and continues to show his foolishness.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • just sayin

      Disgusting fraud attempting to show me as a Christian

      August 10, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • just sayin

      just sayin

      In Christ is found all wisdom. God bless

      ---

      Yuck...may Satan Bless you

      August 10, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • just sayin

      The original just sayin representing itself as it is and as God has made it. God bless

      August 10, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • Really-O?

      More kicks to the junk, Chad...from every post in this thread (as usual). Isn't it time to leave the game or do you like being Charlie Brown to Lucy Van Pelt with a football?

      August 10, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

      God hates just sayin.

      Fact

      August 10, 2012 at 3:55 pm |
    • Chad

      @lunchbreaker "you are saying that evolution by itself, without God, is not possible"

      =>read the definitions again.
      "evolution"(any change across successive generations in the inherited characteristics of biological populations) by itself does not describe how we got from proto-cell to current complexity.

      so, your statement makes no sense..

      I am saying that evolutionism is not possible.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:12 pm |
    • Chad

      @just sayin "There is no such thing as supernatural orchestration natural process."

      =>suppose I said "starting walking east, when you get to the Mississippi you will walk across with dry feet (no bridges allowed), and after 3 weeks of walking you got within 10 miles.. So, that night a massive earthquake occurred upstream and completely diverted the river to flow to the west of you, and the following day you walked across the dry river bed of the Mississippi.

      Would you call that supernatural or not?

      August 10, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
    • fred

      Really-O
      If you say it is a game then how do you expect to win by not following the rules? The atheist vision of mans existence leaves no winners or losers with all the game pieces having equal weight (frogs , man etc simply animals without soul or purpose outside of self). Are you playing a game with your own made up rules or what rules do you play by?

      August 10, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      Chad, if God is controling the progress of evolution it is not science, it is God manipulating the scientific laws He created.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @just sayin – regarding Chad's "a massive earthquake occurred upstream and completely diverted the river...would you call that supernatural or not?"

      Holy Christ! Chad's hypothetical is a textbook example of how supersti'tions develop! Skinner's pigeon. What a tool.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @fred –

      I'm not sure I understand the intent of your question. Perhaps you can clarify.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:27 pm |
    • Rachel

      @Chad, another fantastic post!

      🙂

      August 10, 2012 at 4:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Really-O

      fred is just bringing up an appeal to a perceived purpose that hasn't been demonstrated to even exist. He just doesn't like the thought that there is no intrinsic value, and that there is only perceived value.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • Chad

      @lunchbreaker " if God is controling the progress of evolution it is not science, it is God manipulating the scientific laws He created."

      =>your strawman seems to have quite a hold on you.. try reading what I said again...

      August 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm |
    • fred

      Lunchbreaker
      Quantum Physics demands that causation of our universe must exist in a dimension or dimensions outside of our known 4 dimensional universe. I am not claiming that causation is God however whether it is God or other force does not change the science behind Quantum Physics. By the same token it does not matter if God or other force guides or set evolution in motion. Current scientific knowledge does not and cannot test beyond its own boundaries thus God and science complement each other and both are necessary.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:34 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @hawaiiguest –

      Thanks for the clarification and for saving me the time I would have wasted responding to fred.

      Cheers

      August 10, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @fred –

      With regard to your response to Lunchbreaker – what a load of horsesh1t! Do you really think that tripe fools anyone? Who are you trying to kid?

      August 10, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Really-O

      fred likes the quantun physics argument, because most people don't even know what quantum mechanics deal with, which is mainly a mathematical description of much of the dual particle-like and wave-like behavior and interactions of energy and matter. Not to mention that quantum mechanics and formulas are almost purely abstract.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:53 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      If God can change the laws of science at a whim, then science can not be used to prove anything. If he can manipulate the results of any expirement or study, the expirement or study was meaningless to begin with. How can you claim science proves some aspect of your theology if the same science is not concrete.

      @fred, I agree with you 100% about the origin being outside our 3d spacetime. I'm completely open to the possibility of God, my argument with Chad was lost in semantics, but fun nonetheless.

      August 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm |
    • fred

      Really-O?
      You suggested Chad leave the game (Charlie Brown reference) but I do not think the truth of the Bible is a game for Chad. Actually, the Bible goes to great lengths to wake up a sleeping people while there is time remaining. It is more than just a game.
      I also think that if our existence is limited by the boundaries of our own physiology and known physical world such existence runs contrary to what we observe. We observe never ending expansion and wonder in our know world. To suggest it would stop on our account is very self centered. We observe and participate in creative endeavors that emanate from outside our known boundaries of science and known boundaries of existence. It is not logical or reasonable to assume without any evidence whatsoever that this “eternal soul” (not making a claim just cannot think of a better term for self awareness without time or space constraints) is constrained to our time line or space as it did not originate from there.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:00 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @hawaiiguest – regarding fred and quantum physics.

      Like I said...horsesh1t.

      Cheers

      August 10, 2012 at 5:03 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @fred

      With regard to my reference to "the game": That was a simple metaphor for interaction on this blog.
      With regard to the rest of your last post: Gobbledygo'ok!

      August 10, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
    • fred

      Really-O?
      Well it certainly has me fooled because without M-theory Stephen Hawking and his band of atheists are painted into a corner that demands the existence of God due to fine tuning of our universe. Thanks to M-theory the possible existence of multiple coexisting universes once again makes possible that no God is needed.
      You cannot have it both ways either be fooled by Quantum theory or fooled by the Bible.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:44 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @fred –

      Given that you seem challenged to put together coherent sentences and that Richard Feynman – one of the great minds in quantum mechanics – said, "..no one understands quantum mechanics...", I think it's safe to assert that you, fred, don't understand quantum mechanics; therefore, it is also safe to assert that your simply blowing smoke. Really...you don't think that is obvious to anyone who can tie their own shoes?

      August 10, 2012 at 6:02 pm |
  18. Typical Christian

    God is the only something that can come from nothing.

    August 10, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • Which God??

      @ Typical. God came from the imaginings of humans. It/s/he never was, and never will be, real. All make believe. Why do you so desparatley want to believe in a make believe god? Forget the bible stuff, what is your fear that makes you want to swallow this nonsense? You fear death, don't you? Sad.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:21 pm |
    • K-switch

      Sarcasm anyone?

      August 10, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • AverageJoe76

      God is nothing.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
    • Timmy

      I believe that the christian god evolved from Zeus. So if gods can evolve why can't things on Earth?

      August 10, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • TruthPrevails :-)

      "God is the only something that can come from nothing"

      Wow, slightly brainwashed there??

      August 10, 2012 at 2:43 pm |
    • venum to hypocrites

      God did not come from nothing He has always been.. he is eternal always has been 🙂 🙂
      too infinite for our little finite minds...

      August 10, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
  19. Rufus T. Firefly

    11 Myths and Misconceptions about Evolution

    1. Evolution means that everything came about by random chance.
    a. Natural selection is not random – it is an organizing/sorting process.
    b. Mutations are largely random, but they are only one component of evolution.
    c. Evolution occurs as natural selection favors certain traits within a population, causing some traits to become more or less common in future generations.

    2. Evolution means that people came from monkeys
    a. Evolution means that every organism is related to every other organism at some point in their evolutionary history.
    b. Humans came from earlier humans – numerous hominid species existed between modern humans and our pre-human ancestors.
    c. Our common ancestor with monkeys existed over 50 million yrs ago.
    d. Apes are our closest living relatives, with a common ancestor around 7 million years ago.

    3. If people came from apes, why are there still apes?
    a. For the same reason that, although many Americans came from Europe, there are still Europeans.
    b. We did not come from any modern apes – chimps and gorillas are our distant cousins, not our ancestors.
    c. Modern apes and humans shared a common ancestor that was neither strictly an ape nor a human. The recent description of Ardipithecus ramidus indicates it may be close to that common ancestor.

    4. No one has ever seen a new species arise.
    a. Many people have the mistaken impression that new species come into existence when an individual suddenly gives birth to an offspring so different that it is a distinct species. This is not at all what is suggested by evolution. Throughout the entire process, no individual was ever a different species than its parent.
    b. New species actually have been identified among organisms that reproduce very quickly (fruit flies, bacteria).
    c. Several living plants and animals are good examples of speciation in progress (primrose, Ensatina salamanders, orcas, blacktip sharks)

    5. There are too many gaps in the fossil record.
    a. There are indeed gaps in the fossil record, and there always will be because fossilization is a rare phenomenon. There are gaps in any historical record.
    b. Still, the fossil record is fairly continuous and new discoveries are constantly being made – literally hundreds of thousands since Darwin worried about gaps.
    c. Modern genetics provides an even more thorough record of evolutionary change.

    6. There are no transitional forms.
    a. There is no nice way to say this, but people who make this claim are simply lying or have been misinformed by lies.
    b. Every individual is a transitional form – you are transitional between your parents and your children. Small-scale transitional forms abound.
    c. Examples of large-scale transitions are also well-known – Archaeopteryx, Tiktaalik, Ardipithecus, Ambulocetus, Therapsids, Eohippus are a few examples.

    7. Evolution is only a theory.
    a. In science, theory is not a guess or a hunch, it is an explanatory framework that is overwhelmingly supported by the data.
    b. Theories are never tested or proven, they are not less valid than facts – they are made up of facts, and they never become “laws” – they explain laws.
    c. Evolution is on equally solid ground as other scientific theories such as gravitational theory (gravity), heliocentric theory (earth orbits the sun), germ theory (disease is caused by germs), atomic theory (matter is composed of atoms).

    8. Evolution means that the universe started with the Big Bang and that life arose from nothing.
    a. Evolutionary theory does not address the origins of the universe or even the initial origin of life.
    b. Those are valid scientific questions, but evolution only describes how populations of living things change once life came into existence.
    c. No scientific theories propose that something came from nothing.

    9. Most fossils have proven to be fakes.
    a. Again, this is simply dishonest. Critics of evolution are fond of citing Piltdown Man (a human skull with an ape jaw) or Nebraska Man (the tooth of a fossil pig). These frauds were actually exposed by scientists. No legitimate scientist accepts those fossils, and they are not relevant to the validity of the millions of fossils discovered before or since.

    10. Evolution is just another religious belief.
    a. Evolution, as a science, is based upon testing ideas against evidence. It is based upon the same science practices that have led to the gasoline engine, modern medicine, nuclear power, computers, etc.
    b. Although people believe in some aspects of scientific ideas that are conjectural, the extent that those will be fully accepted will be based upon testing and observations, not faith or dogma. Nothing in science is accepted on faith.

    11. Many scientists do not accept evolution, evolution is a “theory in crisis” and we should “teach the controversy.”
    a. While scientists may debate the ways in which evolution works, there is no legitimate controversy among scientists as to the validity of evolution. A survey of professional life and earth scientists found that 99.8% accept evolution. Any controversy about the validity of evolution is social and political, not scientific.
    b. The myth of a controversy in science is fabricated by activists who see evolution as a threat to religion and want to see creationism or “Intelligent Design” taught in public schools (a federal court concluded that Intelligent Design is a religious doctrine as opposed to a scientific theory – see Kitzmiller v. Dover).
    c. There is no more reason to “teach the controversy” about evolution than there is to teach the “controversy” surrounding whether or not the earth revolves around the sun, or whether or not the earth is flat.
    d. To avoid teaching evolution is to avoid teaching basic science. Basic science is fundamental to progress in research (some of which is literally life-saving) and to America’s ability to compete economically and technologically on a global scale.

    August 10, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • Dr. Gary Hurd

      Excellent comment.

      August 10, 2012 at 3:46 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Rufus T. Firefly

      Excellent !

      Peace...

      August 10, 2012 at 3:53 pm |
    • conoclast

      Thanks for that. It's good to know how the deluded respond to logic.

      August 10, 2012 at 5:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Outstanding, Rufus! Bravo.

      August 10, 2012 at 8:47 pm |
  20. William Demuth

    Perhaps we need some oppulent buildings dedicated to Science!

    Perhaps The Cathedral of The Higgs Boson?

    The Darwin Temple?

    Slap them up all around the south

    August 10, 2012 at 1:59 pm |
    • MarkinFL

      I think the Large Hadron Collider itself makes a fine monument to science.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:04 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Yeah but it neeeds some marble, maybe some silk wall papaer or something

      We should get some 1970's pimps to redo it's facade.

      The gaudier the better.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • ME II

      I'm not sure about opulent but I thought that's what universities were for... buildings dedicated to science. (except of course the Education Department)

      August 10, 2012 at 2:12 pm |
    • Simran

      The Darwin Temple sounds pretty good.

      August 10, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • sam

      No shag carpet on the LHC!

      August 10, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      If only NASA had put black lights and 808 subwoofers on Curiosity.
      I went over the schematics and not a single one of the switches on that rover make it bounce up and down.
      How are the Martians going to know how pimp we is?

      August 10, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
    • William Demuth

      Doc Vestibule

      I was wondering if we find life, whats the odds we use the laser to kil it?

      I am saying 80 percent!

      August 10, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Set phasers on "diplomacy".

      August 10, 2012 at 3:50 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.