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October 10th, 2012
12:01 PM ET

Congressman draws fire for calling evolution, Big Bang ‘lies from the pit of hell’

By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

Washington (CNN) – A U.S. congressman is attracting attention and criticism for an online video that shows him blasting evolution and the Big Bang theory as “lies from the pit of hell” in a recent speech at a church event in his home state of Georgia.

“All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, the Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell,” U.S Rep. Paul Broun said in an address last month at a banquet organized by Liberty Baptist Church in Hartwell, Georgia. “And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior.”

Broun, a medical doctor by training, serves on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology.

Speaking at Liberty Baptist Church’s Sportsman’s Banquet on September 27, he said that “a lot of scientific data that I’ve found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth.”

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“I don’t believe that the Earth’s but about 9,000 years old,” Broun said in the speech, which Liberty Baptist Church posted on its website via YouTube.  “I believe it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says."

Scientists say that the Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old and that the universe dates back 13.7 billion years.

In his speech to the church group, Broun called the Bible the “the manufacturer’s handbook. … It teaches us how to run all of public policy and everything in our society.”

“That’s the reason, as your congressman, I hold the holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I’ll continue to do that,” he said.

A spokeswoman for the congressman, Meredith Griffanti, said that Broun was not available for comment on Wednesday and that the video showed him “speaking off the record to a large church group about his personal beliefs regarding religious issues.”

The congressman’s remarks about science have drawn attention online, with critics taking aim at his role on the science committee.

Bill Nye, the popular science personality, told the Huffington Post in an e-mail that "Since the economic future of the United States depends on our tradition of technological innovation, Representative Broun's views are not in the national interest."

"For example, the Earth is simply not 9,000 years old," said Nye, a mechanical engineer and television personality best known for his program "Bill Nye the Science Guy." Broun "is, by any measure, unqualified to make decisions about science, space, and technology."

Talking Points Memo reported on the church video over the weekend after being tipped off by the Bridge Project, a progressive group that tracks conservative activity.

Most creationists believe in the account of the origins of the world as told in the Book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

In the creation account, God creates Adam and Eve, the world and everything in it in six days.

For Christians who read the Genesis account literally, or authoritatively as they would say, the six days in the account are literal 24-hour periods and leave no room for evolution.  Young Earth creationists use this construct and biblical genealogies to determine the age of the Earth and typically come up with 6,000 to 10,000 years.

The Gallup Poll has been tracking Americans' views on creation and evolution for 30 years.  In June, it released its latest findings, which showed that 46% of Americans believed in creationism, 32% believed in evolution guided by God, and 15% believed in atheistic evolution.

– CNN's Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Bible • Christianity • Evolution • Politics • Science

soundoff (5,886 Responses)
  1. n

    Last time I checked the founding fathers wanted a separation between church and state for a reason. Religion should not have a place in making governmental policy or decision.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:53 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      You misunderstand the Establishment clause. The point is not to keep religious thought out of our political discourse. The point is twofold. One: To keep prevent the government from establishing a state religion; Two: To preserve the free exercise of religion from government intrusion. There is nothing that says religious people cannot hold office or vote their conscience. The atheist crowd would wield more integrity if they stopped contorting this point.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:05 pm |
    • Amniculi

      In a perfect world politicians would be able to separate their religious views from their political practices. Unfortunately, that is unrealistic and unreasonable to ask as bias can never be completely eliminated. As much as I dislike it (or hate to admit it), Bill finally made a factual statement.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:19 pm |
    • lee

      Bill – noone says religious people shouldn't hold office, or even consider their religious beliefs when creating legislation. But the establishment clause (and later the Lemon decision) does prohibit a law from being solely religious in nature, such as altering the teaching of science for religious reasons.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • the AnViL

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

      it's pretty clear.

      no, people who are caught in the throes of delusional thinking should NOT be allowed to hold public office, purchase firearms, vote, or teach public school.

      but hey! that's cool! – you're STILL free to go worship whatever imaginary men in the sky you choose! yay for you!!!

      however....

      people who espouse delusional beliefs cannot be counted on to act soundly, with reason and intelligence, in regards to public policy or education. they do – and have – allowed their skewed, antiquated, ignorant delusional beliefs to dictate an ancient, tribal-minded form of non-equality, bigotry and ignorance. some religions even think it's OK to kill people when they disagree with their religion or draw cartoons of the delusional people who started their ancient, ignorant, racist, bigoted religions a very very long time ago.

      enough is enough!

      you can worship whatever imaginary gods you choose – in the privacy of your own homes or the buildings you erect as monuments to your failed, simplistic, lazy, ancient ideologies... but keep it in the dark and out of our government and schools.

      tolerance of religious ideology has got to end.

      it's the 21st century – it's time for the immature minds among us to evolve and join us.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
    • ;p;

      Bill...so laws based on religion should not be introduced, right? Banning gay marriage, declaring a zygote a person...

      Better check yourself

      October 11, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • mama k

      And to give you an idea of what some of our founders felt about the effect religion was having during the establishment of the government, I submit the following quote from James Madison, the chief architect of the U.S Const!tution:

      During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superst!tion, bigotry, and persecution.

      A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the Virginia General Assembly, 1785

      It is also very easy to find more of his views, specifically regarding separation. (Same goes for TJ and others.)

      October 11, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • WOW

      Bill you are right on the mark!

      October 11, 2012 at 3:41 pm |
    • MDAT

      Bill you are right.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
    • Snow

      we have had this conversation many many times bill.. about the definition of the word "separation". it means to keep them apart.. if you put your persecution complex aside, you will notice that if anything, the religious people have made laws to restrict the people of no faith from holding office. it is NOT the other way round.

      Also the separation clause means that you must keep your religion out of govt as much as the govt should keep out of religion. You can not just "reinterpret" the intent to suit your current political needs.

      You have VERY conveniently left out that third meaning of the clause.. if you do not want the government to poke its nose in religion, the religion should not poke its nose into government. how hard is it to understand that simple fact?? really!!

      October 11, 2012 at 4:11 pm |
    • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

      Bill Deacon your direct interpretation is accurate although I suggest that the bigger problem is having delusions may be "allowed" they are not desired aspects of lawmaking. It's not the type of delusion that's the problem .. it's having them to begin with.

      October 11, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Bill no one is saying religious people should not hold office, your argumant is a straw man.

      October 11, 2012 at 9:13 pm |
  2. reasonableone

    Pit of Hell here. We would like our Congressman back for consultation, please.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Amniculi

      I'm sorry. Representative Broun is busy with NASA planning a way to harvest moon cheese. May I take a message?

      October 11, 2012 at 3:38 pm |
  3. If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

    Why would this guy approve ANY congressional spending on science if he truly believes what he said, and why would he even accept an appointment to the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology? Seems to me it's more likely he was pandering to the desires of the group he was addressing .. for votes.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:45 pm |
    • ArthurP

      He is there to dole out 'pork' to his friends. Nothing more nothing less.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • reasonableone

      And how could he possible get an MD? Oh, I guess he LIED on his tests since he doesn't believe in such things. Ooops! Lying is a mortal sin, isn't it? One of the Big Ten No-Nos. Comin' ta getcha, Paul.

      Signed,
      Satan

      October 11, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
  4. ArthurP

    U.S Rep. Dr. Paul Broun (MD) admits to studying and becoming an acolyte of the Devil.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:44 pm |
  5. realbuckyball

    .....
    .....
    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwew5gHoh3E&w=640&h=390]

    October 11, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
  6. ArthurP

    Remember people the Christian bible is a government docu.ment, Council of Nicaea, and so its contents should be treated with the same reverence given other government docu.ments and publications.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
  7. BRC

    I would like to see a message along these lines from members of the Scientific community back to Broun-
    "You call our work lies from the pit of hell? We devote our lives, our time, our energy and often our own money towards study, and learning, and practice of our knowledge, towards research, and developement and testing, we spend long hours doing work that many people can't even understand, often away from family and friends because we are commited to finding knowledge and answers, and using the fruits of our labor to make mankind better, safer and healthier; and you say that our works are the products of what you percieve to be the universe's ultimate source of evil. Go f-ck yourself, and the ignorant backwards horse you rode in on."

    Apollogies to the horse.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:34 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Send an email ton the house science committee chairman everyone. Flood him with emails.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:38 pm |
    • evan

      guess what no one knows if evolution or the big bang THEORY happened. A lot of people know that the stories of the bible didnt happen.

      Everyone needs to stop acting like they know beause NO ONE KNOWS how we got here

      October 11, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
    • Mike D

      Aliens, Evan. Or maybe Elvis.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:46 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      False. We DO know from the fossil evidence that Evolution happened, and how. That is a very ignorant statement, and further evidence of the pathetic state of education in this country. We don't have all the answers about the Big Bang, but Physics has demonstrated many things about it are consistent with observations, (the expansion of the universe). Evolution is happening constantly, and it is proven every time a doctor prescribes an antibiotic.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
    • OTOH

      I sent an email yesterday to: http://science.house.gov/contact-us

      I said:
      "Representatives Broun (GA) and Akin (MO), and any others who wish to govern according to their fantasy religious beliefs, do not belong on a Science Committee."

      Seeing that the Chairman of this committee (Ralph Hall) is a 90 year-old former Dixiecrat-turned-Republican from Texas, however, doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence that my message will have much effect.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:09 pm |
    • Spencer

      evan: You might want to look up what the term Theory means in science and rethink your argument.

      October 11, 2012 at 4:10 pm |
  8. Chiniquy

    They say: "(G-D) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
    Indeed they have put forth a thing most monstrous!
    At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
    That they should invoke a son for (G-D) Most Gracious.
    For it is not consonant with the majesty of (G-D) Most Gracious that HE should beget a son.
    Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (G-D) Most Gracious as a servant.
    HE does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
    And everyone of them will come to HIM singly on the Day of Judgment.
    On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will ((G-D)) Most Gracious bestow love.

    Kur'an

    October 11, 2012 at 2:32 pm |
    • NoTheism

      Albus Dumbledore
      Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

      Ron Weasley
      (with regard to Peeves singing his victory song) That really captures the scope and tragedy of the thing, doesn't it?

      (Engraved on Dobby's grave)
      Here lies Dobby, a free elf.

      Luna Lovegood
      I think the answer is: a circle that has no beginning.

      Hermione Granger
      Mudblood, and proud of it!

      Peeves
      We did it, we bashed them, wee Potter's the one,
      And Voldy's gone moldy, so now let's have fun!

      –Harry Potter (which I never read; but I thought that my quoting BS was just as good as yours, so, there you go)

      October 11, 2012 at 2:37 pm |
    • Mike D

      Watching the various faiths going after each other is kind of like watching monkeys throwing poo at the zoo. Carry on, religious dupes, while atheism continues to quietly increase.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:39 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Yes you're up to what now 4%?

      October 11, 2012 at 3:08 pm |
    • Mike D

      Try one in five Americans, Bill, and growing. Mind you, this is by the strict definition of atheism, i.e. without theism.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:13 pm |
    • OTOH

      Bill Deacon
      "Yes you're up to what now 4%?"

      1000 years ago, yea, even 500 years ago, the percentage of people who believed that the Earth orbits the Sun was probably much lower than 4%.

      (and guess what?... there are some who still adamantly tout Biblical geocentricity : http://www.geocentricity.com/)

      October 11, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Bill D.

      Agnostics + Atheists: now 5.5%

      Thanks for asking.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
  9. Dude

    @Chiniquy

    That makes you a muslim then?

    October 11, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
  10. lunchbreaker

    I think there would be better things to do in the pit of hell other than sending lies to earth.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
  11. Snow

    No wonder this country is behind so many others in education, math, science.. we have to get a piggyback on a russian rocket to reach the near earth orbit..

    and what does the members of the panel on science and technology do.. they talk about "lies from hell"..

    Heck, does the ape s*it mor*on take any pills? He shouldn't if he really believes what he says he does. Because the entire medicine and effect of chemicals on specific body parts is dependent on the theory of evolution that dictates which lab animals are similar in dna to humans and are suitable for lab testing. Or, does he take the hypocrisy card out when it comes to his own body and health?

    October 11, 2012 at 2:29 pm |
  12. snowboarder

    his statements are a testament to the effectiveness of the indoctrination of religion.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:21 pm |
  13. If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

    So what did God do for the eternity that preceeded creating the uninverse?

    October 11, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
    • ArthurP

      Like all guys he just bummed around the house until he got tired of his wife nagging at him to get a job or find something to do.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      The same thing He does now, nothing.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

      So no believers are willing to give their (or more likely their pastor's) answer to this very basic question?

      October 11, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
  14. Chiniquy

    Who changed the message that the original followers of Jesus of Nazareth preached? Who were the prime schemers behind the plan to make Jesus of Nazareth divine? Who changed the message (Gospel) of Jesus into something that he never would have approved. They (followers of the ancient scheme of Satan) have used him to divide and control the world.
    To say that the Lord-Creator of the heavens and earth has a son is the most disrespectful thing any human being can say about G-D

    October 11, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • snowboarder

      gods are the inventions of men who lack the tools to properly explain the natural world.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:17 pm |
    • NoTheism

      @Chiniquy, not only that, but it is idiotic.. how can something that (to my knowledge) does not exist have a son??
      Ridiculous.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:41 pm |
  15. derp

    And this guy is on the Congressional Science panel.

    Hey China, it's all your now.

    October 11, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
  16. Just Curious

    Did Jesus make it through puberty without ever masturbating?

    October 11, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • SR

      Lord knows I didn’t.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:50 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Nobody know what Christ did between the ages of 12 and 30.
      I suggest reading "Lamb – The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal" for some sound theories of what He was up to.
      Personally, I figure that he only got into the messiah business after spending his teen years trying to learn carpentry and finding He had no talent for it.
      Just becuase he was the Messiah, that doesn't mean he could make a passable dining room table.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Since he was called "Rabbi", and every Rabbi was married, he got married most likely, when he was 18.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • derp

      I don't know the answer to that question, but Mrs derp screams his fathers name a few times a week if you know what I mean.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • sam stone

      When young Jeebus was at the point of discharge, he would say "oh, me, oh, MEEE"

      October 11, 2012 at 10:09 pm |
  17. GOOD NEWS

    Jesus absolutely existed;

    Jesus absolutely was a truthful Prophet of GOD;

    So what Jesus thus foretold here (John 6/27, 40)

    has thus absolutely come True now:

    http://www.holy-19-harvest.com

    ===UNIVERSAL MAGNIFICENT MIRACLES===

    October 11, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • snowboarder

      what is this scam about?

      October 11, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • niknak

      Jeebus may or may not have existed (I vote for the latter).
      Your god is no more proven by the babble then aliens are proven by the pyrammids.
      We are still waiting for some verifyiable proof of your sky fairy's existence.
      Come back when you have some.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      The moon is absolutely made of green cheese. Fact.
      esus absolutely was a truthful Prophet of GOD;
      For yeah, the pink unicorn hath foretold it.
      It hath absolutely come True now.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:45 pm |
    • Human be aware of hindu filthy dog's of hindu Atheism, self center ism , DENIAL OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD.

      Pharisees, self centered were hindu santan's , filthy goons of Egypt, now known as Jew's, self centered, no one killed or humiliated messenger's of truth absolute but hindu's deniers of truth absolute GOD, deserving nothing but what they did to truthful. hindu's, criminals creating hinduism, corruption among humanity by promoting hinduism, racism. A crime against truth absolute GOD and his humanity, desire.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • Mike D

      You do realize that thanks to Futurama the phrase "good news" now equals Hubert Farnsworth.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • Chiniquy

      Christians are still in the dark if they seriously believe that the All-Mighty Creator of everything and everyone had a physical flesh and blood "son." HE has no need for a "son." HE alone has total control over all created matter. The biggest lie that the clan of Satan have used to deceive the world is this fable about G-D having a "son." This is how they have manipulate Europe (and now almost everywhere else), by feeding the egos of the Caucasian people into believing that the All-Mighty G-D had a special racial kinship with them to the exclusion of others. As long as the people of the world believe in that foolishness they will remain under the dominion of that cult who have for over 2,000 years been follow the ancient scheme of Satan to fool humanity into rejecting G-D.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
    • Cq

      Jesus probably existed, but there is nothing to suggest that he was anything more than just a man.

      October 12, 2012 at 8:16 am |
  18. Doc Vestibule

    At the beginning of time, the heavens and the earths were mixed together in a great cloud. Slowly, the clearer, lighter parts of the cloud rose up and became heaven. The heavier parts of the cloud descended and became an ocean of muddy water. Between the heavens and the earth, a pale green sprout began to grow. It grew swiftly and was extremely strong. When the plant’s flower burst open, the First God emerged.
    This First God then created Izanagi along with his wife and sister, Izanami and gave to them the task of finishing the creation of the world.
    When Izanami died giving birth, Izanagi went to the underworld to retrieve her, but she refused to come back with him and they parted forever. When Izanagi returned from the underworld, he started the first cleaning rites. He washed his left eye and thus created the sun goddess Amaterasu. When he washed his right eye, the moon goddess Tsuki-Yumi came forth. From his nose he created Susanowo, the god of the seas and the storms.

    That is Shinto creationism.
    It is no more or less credible than Biblical creationism.

    October 11, 2012 at 1:24 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Enuma Elish, (Babylonian myth), which scholars KNOW the Judean priests took the Genesis myths from :
      Before the Heavens had been named
      Before the Earth below had been named
      None but
      APSU
      The All-Father, Oldest of Beings
      And
      MUMMU-TIAMAT
      Mother who bore them,
      Existed.
      Their Waters merged into One;
      There were no fields or marshes
      Before any GODS came into being.
      The Powers had no Names
      Their Destinies had not been Fixed.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      The ancestors of mankind were the fleas and lice on the body of the God Pan Gu.
      In the beginning, Pan Gu escaped from the great universal egg by cracking it open with a broadaxe. The light part of the yolk floated up and became the heavens while the cold, hard part stayed below to form earth with Pan Gu standing between them like a pillar to keep the separated. When He died, His breath became the wind and clouds, His voice thunder, His eyes the sun and the moon, his beard and hair turned to the stars in the sky, His blood the water. His veins became roads and his muscles fertile land.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:32 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Interesting. One of the Egyptian myths was an egg also.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • niknak

      It certainly beats the heck out of the babble when it comes to it's artistic and romanitc value.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • fred

      Sorry Doc only the Bible gets it right.
      “At the beginning of time, the heavens and the earths were mixed together in a great cloud”
      =>time as we know it began at the instant of creation it did not begin after the existence of the heavens and the earth. This can be contrasted with the Bible which gets the first cause right and is in agreement with modern scientific consensus. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
      Those opposed to a personal God such as Stephen Hawking prefer to call the unknown force something other than God but given it is unknown a non believer can call it what ever he or she wants.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:36 pm |
    • ArthurP

      Genesis For The Modern Age

      1. In the beginning there was only God and he alone created the void that was the Universe. Then into the void that was the Universe God placed a infinitesimal part of his being.

      2. And the void being with out substance was unable to contain this essence of God and so it expanded at a terrible speed releasing unimaginable energies.

      3. Where upon God created the four fundamental forces toe contain these energies. The Strong Nuclear Force, the Weak Nuclear Force, the Gravitational Force and the Electromagnetic Force.

      4. And with the establishment of these controlling forces expansion of the Universe slowed and the great energies cooled the first elementary partials were formed.

      5. And from these partials the first atoms were formed. The initial one having a single proton and electron and God looked down and said let this be called Hydrogen.

      6. Then when all the Universe was Hydrogen the Fundamental Force of Gravity caused groups of these atoms to come together in ever larger masses.

      7. Where upon when the masses became so large and the Force of Gravity so strong that they started to smash the atoms of Hydrogen together creating new atoms and releasing new energies that illuminated the Universe.

      8. And thus Stars were born and there was now light upon the void.

      9. Then as the forces within the stars created heavier and heavier atoms the energies generated within became great. Greater in fact than the Force of Gravity. Where upon the very Stars themselves exploded spewing the atoms out in great clouds into the void.

      10. Again the fundamental forces came into play creating new stars from the lighter atoms and Planets from the heavier ones. Starting the cycle of Star birth and death.

      11. Now it came to pass that the Planets once formed were much cooler than the Stars allowing the atoms of various types to join together according to the Fundamental forces into molecules.

      12. Some were simple such as the water that filled the seas some were complex such as the precursor proteins of life itself.

      13. And it came to pass that those proteins assembled according to the fundamental forces into evermore complex forms until self replicating molecular structures were created.

      14. And so it was that life was created and God saw that it was Good.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
    • niknak

      Sorry Fred, the babble gets nothing right.
      Except at getting the stupid to part with their hard earned money.
      Religion is the best and biggest and most lucrative ponzi scheem ever invented.
      And it preys on backward people like you Fred.
      Keep up the good work, the scammers need to eat too I guess.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:41 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      Why bother with god at all? Scientists way smarter (and probably more moral) than the average theologian have proposed processes that do not require any god.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:41 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Sorry Freddy.
      If time began at the Big Bang, then to say god acted "before" that, or had an intention to act before that is meaningless.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      But it is all a matter of interpretation.
      You can call that great cloud "a singularity" and it is just as credible as naming that singularity "God"
      Just like how many Creationists argue that God's definition of a day is different than an actual day.
      Furthermore, Genesis posits that plants existed before the sun which is patently false.
      That's like saying fish existed before water.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:47 pm |
    • fred

      Sorry again Doc
      Your myth now has gods being birthed by that which man can see and understand (flower) having babies etc. all of which obviously shows these ideas as manmade and of man.
      Now, you can contrast this with the Bible which not only gets singularity right and the beginning of time right but also instantaneous nature of the big bang right. “let it be and it was”. In Hebrews we see God created that which could be seen from that which could not be seen. This is exactly where science is at today in its spontaneous creation theories or by consensus all matter we know came from the unknown (nothingness for example) or that which could not be known.
      The Bible and science are not in conflict as to creation.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
    • snowboarder

      fred – your religion is just another of the myriad of religions and deities invented by man. plain and simple mythology.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:55 pm |
    • .

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "The Truth" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert"

      This troll is not a christian;...

      October 11, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Talk about failure on your part. I ask you to first demonstrate the underlying premise of "god exists" to be true, and as usual, you disappear from the conversation. I'll ask it again here, and I'm pretty sure you'll just disappear once again.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:05 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      I might have to reconsider religion... if it can cause a dufus such a fred to think he can make any kind of logical argument, after repeatedly getting his azz handed to him, it is very powerful magic!

      October 11, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • fred

      Doc
      Before we get side tracked on the days of creation that followed the big bang the opening sentence of the Bible is not subject to interpetation. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” The Hebrew for created was “bara” bara ex nihilo (created out of nothing). There was not a Hebrew word for Universe and the heavens and the earth referred to “all physical known matter and energy”. That is where the Bible begins. There is no conflict between the Bible and science as to singularity. There is nothing to interpret.
      “You can call that great cloud "a singularity" and it is just as credible as naming that singularity "God"”
      =>no you cannot call your opening myth sentence a singularity. At best you can call it a set of undefined variables. A solid object cannot even theoretically survive hitting the singularity if you are speaking in technical terms used in astronomy. This is clearly a myth as none of it can be forced to fit what we know today. It is clearly manmade as contrasted with the Bible.
      Science is in clear conflict with the myth you have outlined as to creation.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:18 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @ArthurP.

      very nicely composed sir. I can't tell if this is genuinely intended to encourage those who syntheize religion and science or it is an exercise in abstraction, but it's nicely written.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:19 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @fred,

      "ex nihilo" is Latin. It is not Hebrew.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:20 pm |
    • ArthurP

      Genesis : What really happened.

      One day God and the Mrs. were, well you know, and being a good husband he was being very attentive to her desires shall we say. Anyway the upshot of it was that towards the end of their dalliance there was a very BIG BANG!!! . The remnants of which can still be detected today. We call it Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. And then nine months after that the Universe was born. And like all children it started to grow, a process which can be still seen today with the expanding Universe.

      See science supports this. This is how it really happened. Anyone who does not believe this will be condemned to Hell to listen to disco records for eternity.

      October 11, 2012 at 2:31 pm |
    • fred

      Doc
      “Just like how many Creationists argue that God's definition of a day is different than an actual day.”
      =>yes there is that attempt to force the Word of God into science. There is also the attempt by some to force science into the Word of God. These are both misguided attempts to justify some belief or support someone’s agenda.
      I sometimes see the Divinity in the Bible where no matter who is forcing their agenda the truth prevails and the heart of the person revealed as they cut their way through the Bible looking for causation.
      As to the 6 days of creation and the day of rest the Bible is not addressing a geologic time period rather an ordering of existence that fulfills the purpose of God and man.
      Science and the Bible are not in conflict as to the days of creation as expressed in the Bible. Science and some people are in conflict as to their misuse of the Bible and science.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:26 pm |
    • MDAT

      It is your belief.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:27 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "Science and the Bible are not in conflict "

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Yay fred seems to be ignoring me once again. What a surprise.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:30 pm |
    • fred

      realbuckyball
      No, you are simply stateing that you agree causation is outside of our space, time, lenght and width limitations.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      I am not ignoring you. When the non believers demanded Jesus prove God he said no proof will be given to you but the sign of Jonah. I have explained the sign of Jonah to you and you called me names.
      I doubt if I went through the empirical observations we have as to God you would view the list any different than presented countless times before. What I am thinking about is if I missed something that may save your soul.

      October 11, 2012 at 3:44 pm |
    • fred

      Snowboarder
      “fred – your religion is just another of the myriad of religions and deities invented by man. plain and simple mythology.”

      =>compare the two myths Doc has presented and observe the Bible stands apart from them in many aspects. Pan Gu came out of an egg using an ax and Izanagi resulted from a god that came out of a flower. These are myths and obvious creations of man.
      In the beginning God created is how Genesis opens. There is nothing of manmade myth or story here. It is a presentation of authority and power of unknown quanti-ty and quality which captures the vast difference between man and God. In five opening words the majesty of God is revealed, the eternal nature of God made evident and the Glory that is God revealed in creation as in the beginning God created. Touched by those opening words man can sense the personal nature of our Creator our God.
      100,000 years since man began to worship yet science still acknowledges first cause or causation. It is inescapable and permeates all life. Virtually everyone alive today looks to that point of creation to answer the question why we exist. That is a force since the dawn of man which cannot be denied which is why even you ask that question and look to the same point.
      God has your attention that is why you are here. The Bible is the Word of God that is why attack it mock it or ebrace it. I do not see any epic battles over the truth of Pan Gu only battles over you.

      October 11, 2012 at 4:39 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Truth, reality, and observations are not subject to personal interpretation. If a certain "mindset" or certain way of looking at things is needed to interpret observations to come to your conclusions is necessary, then that's a hint that it probably isn't correct. If you need to present arguments which are fundamentally flawed (watchmaker, kalam, etc.) and hope the underlying problem is not seen to prove your point, then that's a hint that it's not a sound argument.
      What empirical argument are you talking about? "Oh look around"? How about "This couldn't have come about naturally, therefore my god."? You have presented nothing but flawed arguments, bad logic, and fallacy after fallacy. Don't try to pretend you've been reasonable fred, because you haven't.

      October 11, 2012 at 7:08 pm |
    • Scott

      @fred: “ When the non believers demanded Jesus prove God he said no proof will be given to you but the sign of Jonah”

      Typical christian lying through his teath again
      John 2:11 This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

      John 6:2 and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick.

      John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

      October 11, 2012 at 7:26 pm |
    • mama k

      You know when you first open one of these Russian toys – I forget what you call them, but the ones where there is a similar thing inside that is only smaller to fit in the larger one. And it can go several levels. I'm thinking of this in the context of previous universes, each with its own big bang. And I know everyone wants to know when considering something like that, what is at the very beginning of it. But since we know so little about what's just before the big bang, it seems like it is better not to get ahead of yourself and just try to imagine the possibilities of things in the last big bang that could have affected the formation of different things now. But within the context of the "sequential big bangs", then can't we consider the things that existed just before the big bang (that could have had an affect on things now) could have these attributes:

      a) maybe themselves didn't have to originate in that universe

      b) may no longer be around in the form that they were in before the big bang

      c) may not have had intelligence in the way that we describe intelligence today

      d) may have been something in that other universe and or this one where it hasn't yet been detected but is more in line with what Spinoza was thinking (if I understood him correctly – where it permeates everything), but again being able to be affecting without necessarily having a single intelligence. and i better clarify that everywhere where I say affecting I don't at all mean pre-ordained, but more to where creation of things are not as random as we can yet understand

      I see now I have been considering multiverse, but that's something different. I am just toying with this idea of sequential big-bangs – like the Russian toy.

      Anyway, when thinking about these things, including the most basic argument over the plausibility of the Abrahamic God, it seems to me it is silly to only keep arguing using present tense as in: exists/doesn't exist and: is/is not, because as soon as we say that I think we are ruling too much out.

      October 11, 2012 at 7:40 pm |
    • fred

      Scott
      The book of John refers to signs as Jesus fulfilled all the signs required of the Old Testament Jews (Hebrews) for the Messiah. That was done to fulfill prophecy as recorded in Scripture all of which were fulfilled in Jesus.
      The Sanhedrin were Priests that were a bunch of non believers caught up in their own religion. They were skeptics and of this world as are non believers of today. They demanded a miracle from Jesus to prove he was God and to these no miracle would be given accept the sign of Jonah. All non believers to this day must see that sign of Jonah before they can see miracles and know God.

      October 12, 2012 at 5:25 pm |
  19. Human be aware of hindu filthy dog's of hindu Atheism, self center ism , DENIAL OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD.

    He did not condemn work of science , but claims made by hindu atheist , lair self centered goon's, based not on substantiated fact's but on hypothesis, unsubstantiated theory are not of truth absolute GOD, but to deny truth absolute GOD, claims made are of hindu Lucifer, filthy self centered, considering himself to be the truth absolute GOD, the devil, otherwise known as atheist. to know hinduism, illegality committed by hindu atheist, criminal self centered goons, visit limitisthetruth.com

    October 11, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • niknak

      Oh look, the resident creepy fundie is back to write unintellible gibberish about hindus.
      If you think we are tired of this, then for once you are correct.
      Please go away, we are asking nicely.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • snowboarder

      hindu – he literally equated science with evil. there is no denying it.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:35 pm |
    • Human be aware of hindu filthy dog's of hindu Atheism, self center ism , DENIAL OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD.

      Only one to go away are hindu's deniers of truth absolute GOD, truth absolute GOD, constant has been around for ever and will be for ever, so will be follower of truth absolute GOD, only one to vanish are hindu atheist, lair self centered, denier of truth absolute.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • Wraith

      No one understands what you are saying. Most of the words you use are, yes, English, but they are assembled in such a way they make no sense. So, my advice to you is this: Learn English or get off of an English speaking forum. If you want people to understand you, it is your responsibility to convey your thoughts coherently, instead of this mass grave of grammatical abortions you're trying to pass off.

      October 15, 2012 at 1:41 pm |
  20. niknak

    That is one inbred looking congressmen.
    Is it just me, or do all the republican male congressmen look inbred?

    October 11, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
    • ArthurP

      They all look the same because evolution does not work.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • Human be aware of hindu filthy dog's of hindu Atheism, self center ism , DENIAL OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD.

      hinduism, inbreeding is the way of hindu atheist's, deniers of truth absolute goon's, and a holy tradition of hindu's, inbred to follow hinduism racism.

      October 11, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • Jt

      They're clones?

      October 11, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.