By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor
Washington (CNN) – A U.S. congressman is attracting attention and criticism for an online video that shows him blasting evolution and the Big Bang theory as “lies from the pit of hell” in a recent speech at a church event in his home state of Georgia.
“All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, the Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell,” U.S Rep. Paul Broun said in an address last month at a banquet organized by Liberty Baptist Church in Hartwell, Georgia. “And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior.”
Broun, a medical doctor by training, serves on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology.
Speaking at Liberty Baptist Church’s Sportsman’s Banquet on September 27, he said that “a lot of scientific data that I’ve found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth.”
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“I don’t believe that the Earth’s but about 9,000 years old,” Broun said in the speech, which Liberty Baptist Church posted on its website via YouTube. “I believe it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says."
Scientists say that the Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old and that the universe dates back 13.7 billion years.
In his speech to the church group, Broun called the Bible the “the manufacturer’s handbook. … It teaches us how to run all of public policy and everything in our society.”
“That’s the reason, as your congressman, I hold the holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I’ll continue to do that,” he said.
A spokeswoman for the congressman, Meredith Griffanti, said that Broun was not available for comment on Wednesday and that the video showed him “speaking off the record to a large church group about his personal beliefs regarding religious issues.”
The congressman’s remarks about science have drawn attention online, with critics taking aim at his role on the science committee.
Bill Nye, the popular science personality, told the Huffington Post in an e-mail that "Since the economic future of the United States depends on our tradition of technological innovation, Representative Broun's views are not in the national interest."
"For example, the Earth is simply not 9,000 years old," said Nye, a mechanical engineer and television personality best known for his program "Bill Nye the Science Guy." Broun "is, by any measure, unqualified to make decisions about science, space, and technology."
Talking Points Memo reported on the church video over the weekend after being tipped off by the Bridge Project, a progressive group that tracks conservative activity.
Most creationists believe in the account of the origins of the world as told in the Book of Genesis, the first book of the Bible.
CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories
In the creation account, God creates Adam and Eve, the world and everything in it in six days.
For Christians who read the Genesis account literally, or authoritatively as they would say, the six days in the account are literal 24-hour periods and leave no room for evolution. Young Earth creationists use this construct and biblical genealogies to determine the age of the Earth and typically come up with 6,000 to 10,000 years.
The Gallup Poll has been tracking Americans' views on creation and evolution for 30 years. In June, it released its latest findings, which showed that 46% of Americans believed in creationism, 32% believed in evolution guided by God, and 15% believed in atheistic evolution.
– CNN's Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report.
You still have people like that in the United States?
Albrecht, unfortunately, yes. We do have people like this. It's sad, isn't it? The good news is: we do have very smart people that don't share these awkward visions like of this gentleman's. But it is because of congress people and others outside congress, with some power that halt the nation's progress as they are in positions to change syllabus in schools or appealing to some people their bad discourse. As a result, however due also to other reasons, US is behind ranking only 25th in science and math, just to mention some examples. In the long run, if this backward message passes more and more, we'll lose even more ground. I'm a catholic, though not practicing it, but I keep religious beliefs as a personal matter. Positions like of this Congressman are absolutely unacceptable in a Country with a melting pot and different religious groups. I guess Muslims might have a different explanation as well as Hinduism followers or Bhudists. So, what is the right story concerning world creation? I think Scientists have certainly been more coherent on this subject.
Doesn't speak much for the people who elected this "thing" in the first place.
Now tell me again that bigotry has no place in our society and in American politics . . . and behind Romney support! Would it be far fetched to add racism to that?
The fact that this guy has an MD makes my skin crawl. If you ever find yourself with a medical doctor proclaiming that evolution isn't real, I strongly suggest you find another doctor, because the one you have isn't competent. There are many many medical conditions and procedures that rely on a basic understanding of science and, more specifically, evolution. The dosage rotations on HIV medication, the population biology that underpins public vaccination programs, the policies on when antibiotics are administered, the evolutionary basis for the treatment of gestational diabetes, morning sickness, post-pardum depression and many others-are all governed by an understanding of evolution. You can get your weather from a meteorologist that doesn't believe in temperature, just like you can get your medical treatment from a doctor that doesn't believe in evolution, but do you really want to?
This is EXACTLY why you should NOT vote republican. They can't think outside of the bible. If they do, they get scared that they might be going to a warm place. religious voting is way more devastating than voting on the economy. If we were in a great depression because of the democrats, I still would not vote for republicans who think that government should be run based on bible quotes.
People! Evolution and the big bang are just theories. There is no sense arguing over it.
Gravity is also a theory, the belief in god is a hypothesis.
You clearly do not understand the meaning of the word "theory" in scientific parlance.
Evolution is a fact and a theory. Until you understand what that means you should not have an opinion on the topic.
Correction: There is no point in arguing with people like Blane. His comprehension of science is apparently nil.
It's fun that CNN is leaving this article open for comments a week-and-a-half after publication. This guy is hilarious. His position in a governmental office that has some authority over the direction science in the US takes is extraordinarily disturbing, but this guy is a real hoot.
Have you ever seen the test scientists have done regarding a single photon going thru 2 holes?
every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God. Heb 3:4
So your deity is China?
Bill Nye as the spokesperson for science....you have to be kidding! I am sure he is on the short list for a Nobel prize for theater but to use him as the authoritative voice for the creation of the universe is about as sound as conjuring up Mr Wizard in the same role. As a scientist, I know that anyone who would speak outside the framework of juried scientific journals has a biased personal agenda. A scientist proposes, tests and questions and any proposed theory is only valid when proven to be true by his colleagues. There is no room for opinion in science. Yet, everyone is free to offer any opinion in our society but I put the burden on the Press (CNN) to know better than to present scientific "opinions" as proven fact.
PS I admire Bill Nye and the educational work he has done. It is invaluable to the effort in promoting science in todays world. He is an inspired educator and deserves praise for those efforts.
Jeffy, you sound like a jealous lover. I guess it really gripes your boney azz that Bill Nye has a spotlight no one has seen fit to give you, poor little dweeb. You must be really hideous!
and its turtles all the way down as Stephen Hawkings would say.
wow.....ancient comic book quotes....how fvcking convincing
US Rep Paul Broun as the scarecrow:
Why, If I had a brain, I could …
I could understand a theory,
Of humans growin’ clearly,
Without the mark of Cain.
With the species all evolvin’
And the planets all revolvin’,
If I only had a brain
I’d forget about ‘creation’
And God over the nation,
And flush them down the drain,
With an intellect so charmin’,
You could be another Darwin,
If you only had a brain.
Oh I, could tell you how, primates evolve to men.
I could tell you how the earth began and when,
In thousand years, it’s more than ten!
I would be an unbeliever,
No “God I’m scared to see yer –
Eternity in pain”
With some science & some reason,
I don’t really think it’s treason,
If you use your fricking brain.
Music and original lyrics here:
Encore, encore! Applause! BRAVO!!!!
Why thank you.
I'm pleased with the way it turned out. I wrote it for the Bill Nye thread, but it fit here so very well.
Two thumbs up.
You friggin' rock, Not GOPer. I am not worthy...
Nice work! Don't be pissed when I steal it.
if you like it, please feel free to copy it.
It would be my pleasure to see someone else enjoy it.
i advocate the listing of ip addresses for every message posted. talking to the admins about it now. we need more cleansing sunlight on these blogs.
Well, you just go ahead and do that, dear. I'm sure the powers that be are hanging on your every word.
Tom... i just think it would be funny to unmask some of the trolls.
If you unmask them...."MY EYES, MY EYES!!!"
well tom, you can always get some of those joo janta 200 super-chromatic peril sensitive sunglasses so you won't have to bear the root of ugliness.
GOP / Tea Party 'Science' = Ignorance
Much of America is a laughing stock around the educated and informed world for the irrational beliefs of those who believe in the myth of God. It is clear from the abject ignorance of the posts to CNN in the Belief section, the unwillingness of US politicians to separate church from state and the intellectually dishonest statements of Paul Broun that these people do not have one iota of understanding of science.
Science has long established the existence of the Big Bang and that something did evolve from the primordal soup that evolved on Earth. However in the bliss of ignorance, people of faith continue to perpetuate the fiction of a God no one has ever seen as the ultimate existential reason for being on Earth.
This sad fact, which permeates a simplisitic American society, the most violent society in the Western world is the root cause of the substantive divisions among Americans be they poilitical or in the course of ordinary living. There is no false movement like religion that so divides a people. Americans instead of showing and inherent trust in their fellow Americans let religious judgment ambush common sense.
And God said "Let there be light!" and puff, the big bang! I have no quarrels with a big bang "THEORY" What I have quarrels with religions' audacious standing regarding 6 days. The Gospels have in it a verse declaring that one day is as a thousnad and a thousnad as one. Time is meaningless to God and His Kingdom Domains. We (our bodies) are cast out of and are made of and from God's Kingdom domains. We are His buildings and temples and storehouses and homes.
God loves the dreamers of people a their dreams. We are His workmanship and He is our Creator.
Huh? Care to translate?
your anti-american bias is just blatant. barring that noise – everything you posted is equally as applicable to canada and virtually every country that counts among its population, xians, hebrews and muslims.
ALL religious thinking is delusional – and no countries have a corner on the market for that product.
@Castaway, actually light first appeared 100 million years after the big bang putting you back at square one.
Funny thing light is and funnier still is where one is at when light comes gushing by. May God grant this world a better Life than what is now being harvested.
If these last two entries are examples of God's truth, I'll take atheism any day. You are idiots.
Well....the laws of thermodynamics say that we shouldn't "evolve" to a higher form.
The laws of physics say that you can't create something from nothing, so just where did the matter for this big bang come from? According to the laws of "science" that Bill Nye, et al, subscribe to, we shouldn't be here! And, the bumblebee shouldn't fly! Yet, here we are...perhaps Bill Nye needs to go back to his little lab and think about it some more...
the laws of thermodynamics posit absolutely nothing about evolution. you must have been asleep in physics class. the laws of physics state lots of smart stuff – positing that something from nothing isn't even an issue. no one advocates this idea in the science camp – that's the idiocy of people caught in the throes of the god delusion.
"we do not know" never translates to "god did it"
also – billy nye is a great guy – stop acting like an ignorant twit – +1 point for troll.
tolerance of religious ignorance has to end.
enough is enough.
The laws of thermodynamics have no bearing on evolution. You are a twit.
The universe was not nothing prior to the big bang, but everything compressed down to a point. You are a twit.
You demonstrate much ignorance about the big bang theory. The matter was there, compressed in a fantastically small space. The one thing that cannot be answered is what was there beforehand. Possibly there was a big crunch where the previous universal structure collapsed on itself. The following big bang would have covered over any residual measurable details, so that is unexplorable. However, the big bang theory certainly does not suggest that all the material just went 'poof' out of nowhere. This type of misinformation is all too prevalent in objections such as yours.
The bumblebee idea is one that is laughable beyond words. This has been held up over and over and is plain wrong. You use this as an example but it shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. The aerodynamics of a bumblebee are against the laws of aerodynamics if it was a fixed wing system. It is not and so it doesn't apply. This complete idiocy makes the rest of your post suspect.
I assume that with the laws of thermodynamics, you are talking about entropy? That only applies to a CLOSED system. Organisms evolve in an OPEN system with constant access to energy (the sun and sometimes heat from the core of the earth).
The rest of your comment goes back to the old canard of first cause. We've been down that well-worn path but one more time folks–if something has to have a cause, then god, but then where did god come from? Eternal right? How about we skip the middleman and claim that the universe has always been here? No god needed, and you are using the same justification. Besides, it wins on the argument from parsimony.
Oh "End Religion " dude
you are trying to sound soo smart – I am trying to get people to think for themselves
and not repeat verbatim the God hating rhetoric that these brilliant minds come up with.
They spend their whole lives trying to prove God away
What hate it is and waste of life – what dis-appointmnet at judgement day, wow
What a hateful waste of ones life
How's come you don't know that little tib-bit about Dawkins – it was a huge deal when he said it
You claim to be so knowledge-able on this subject
I believe you are a semi-smart person who has taken a stand against God
You have taken a stand against God and are now working on your case to prove it.
Bummer is – God is the Judge in that courtroom
It is ALL ABOUT GOD – all of this is – all of life is – and this proves it
one way or the other, people are freaked out about God
You love Him or you hate Him
You'll never explain Him away buddy, sorry, greater than you have tried
Dawkins failed miserably at this too and he knows we were designed – he just will not acknowledge God for doing it
I'm done – Good Night all – please find out for yourselves, this IS the question of life – you must find out for sure !
God – please take it from here and thanx for everything, David
If you can present a cogent argument, with evidence, please do so. As it is, you've done nothing of the sort.
If you're going to spam every article here with this response, I'd say he's the one who got under your skin.
people who believe in imaginary men in the sky should not be allowed to hold public office, vote, purchase firearms or teach public schools.
I love the comment about End Religion being a "semi-smart person" from a guy who thinks "tib-bit" is a word and that "knowledgable" is hyphenated.
there's no god so there's no way to hate gods. it's ok to hate the idea of gods and what that ideal has done in the minds of men. all the division and suffering caused by religious thinking is disgusting, not, however – as disgusting as the lesser-intellects that perpetuate these retarded ideologies.
religions are founded on ignorance
science is predicate on knowledge
the two are completely incompatible – and eventually religious thinking will fall by the wayside – drowned out by intelligence and reason.
we will continue to evolve and eventually we'll educate everyone... we'll move forward into a brighter future where the abject ignorance, bigotry and division caused by impoverished minds will be just a crappy memory in the history books...
science will get us there – not religion.
tolerance of religious idiocy has to end
enough is enough.
@FakeLiberal: "I am trying to get people to think for themselves"
Religion is codified mind control, which makes your effort counterintuitive.
"and not repeat verbatim the God hating rhetoric that these brilliant minds come up with."
In all your madness, you do have a valid point here. No one, from any philosophy, worldview, religion, yadda, does one's self a service by only residing in the echo chamber of like-minded people. We should all continue to seek alternative viewpoints.
The problem is, we can't all spend endless amounts of time reading and listening to any crazy rant presented. But this is an argument for science, which rests on falsifiable theories (what we call "facts" in our shared reality). This is also we I poo poo religion which rests instead on belief.
And thank goodness credible science quietly poo poos religion so it can get on with the business of dragging you cretins into the future despite all your kicking and screaming.
"How's come you don't know that little tib-bit about Dawkins – it was a huge deal when he said it You claim to be so knowledge-able on this subject"
To quote Sergeant Schultz from Hogan's Heroes, "I know nothing. Nothing!"
If it was a huge deal then you surely have video of it. Or, and I hesitate to say this because you seem so rational and trustworthy, perhaps you're lying?
"God is the Judge in that courtroom"
You seem to good buddies with god and I have been dying to know this: can you ask him if judges wear underwear beneath the black robe, or are they naked?
"It is ALL ABOUT GOD – all of this is – all of life is – and this proves it"
Your half-baked, misspelled and retarded assertions prove god? I don't see it. You have a lower threshold for evidence than I.
"You'll never explain Him away buddy, sorry, greater than you have tried"
At this point in time we cannot disprove the existence of a creator. But we do know there is no abrahamic god since its existence is tied to a fraudulent book comprised of refried pre-existant myths and forgeries.
"Dawkins failed miserably at this too and he knows we were designed – he just will not acknowledge God for doing it"
I agree. The only problem is that the likelihood of a credulous and willingly ignorant person giving a cogent argument with verifiable evidence is less than winning the lottery, far far less.
I nearly wet myself laughing when I read that Broun is a member of the 'House Committee on Science, Space and Technology'
"The Gallup Poll has been tracking Americans' views on creation and evolution for 30 years. In June, it released its latest findings, which showed that 46% of Americans believed in creationism, 32% believed in evolution guided by God, and 15% believed in atheistic evolution."
So 78% of the people in America do not believe what the colleges teach (Athiest Evolution View)
only 15% of the people believe this crap and we allow this ?
Is it just the only horse running, our story for now until we find a better one – to explain God away?
15% of the people hate God that much and we allow them to change our society and brainwash our children = CRAZY
I have heard the evidence against evolution – it is credible and there is plenty of it – evolution theory has serious flaws / un-explained gaps in logic and missing evidence that should be there, were it to be true.
Even that clown Dawkins who writes all the God hate books admitted it, but still would not give God credit – he said it was aliens from outer space that designed us = NICE (brilliant science athiest dude) I have the interview on video.
When guys like Dawkins get cornered by learned professionals (not ALL scientists believe in evolution), they start freaking out and say the stupidest things. They will not debate their piers who have the evidence against evolution theory
Dig it up you haters who will respond by the droves – how come you don't know this – Dawkins is your athiest hero and he believes in creation by design (just aliens, not God) because he has dug enough into it and knows it to be true. He has seen too much – just doesn't want to admit it because it's bad for business
are the teachers afraid, and of whom? will they lose their jobs for speaking up for creationism, and why?
This is the biggest cover up going – from those who proclaim to be so smart – afraid of losing your job if you speak up
Afraid of being snubbed by the "Science Community", those brilliant minds that refuse to debate their educated piers and only want to beat up on un-learned children.
Hardest thing for a loudmouth male human to do = admit he was wrong
Intellectual bullying at it's finest (or worst) – jambing an outdated theory down un-learned childrens throats, hoping you can destroy their natural born faith in God
Such brilliant minds at work = third grade playground style
thank you for spelling "losing" correctly. Now scroll down and see we've already addressed your delusion.
@fakeLiberal: I see you added more arguments, so I will address those as well. To see your other assertions refuted, scroll down to where you posted a similar question near the bottom of this very page.
"Even that clown Dawkins who writes all the God hate books admitted it, but still would not give God credit – he said it was aliens from outer space that designed us = NICE (brilliant science athiest dude) I have the interview on video."
Can you provide the video so we can see what you have seen?
"When guys like Dawkins get cornered by learned professionals (not ALL scientists believe in evolution)"
Most credible scientists do believe in evolution because they care about theories which have supporting evidence, and evolution is one of those.
"they start freaking out and say the stupidest things. They will not debate their piers who have the evidence against evolution theory"
While you are personally saying stupid things, we'd need to see these other people saying these apparently stupid things so we know exactly what you are referencing. Why would anyone debate a pillar? What is this exact evidence pillars have against evolution?
"Dawkins is your athiest hero"
My heroes are firemen, police and those in the military, who do braver things than I ever will. Dawkins has been incredibly brave in the face of hateful religious people, but he's also a bit cranky at times. I wouldn't personally classify him a hero.
@fakeLiberal: "he believes in creation by design (just aliens, not God) because he has dug enough into it and knows it to be true. He has seen too much – just doesn't want to admit it because it's bad for business"
Please provide the video or documents supporting your assertions.
"those brilliant minds that refuse to debate their educated piers"
Again, where are these educated pillars who won't be debated?
"Hardest thing for a loudmouth male human to do = admit he was wrong"
If the foo shits...
"Intellectual bullying at it's finest (or worst) – jambing an outdated theory down un-learned childrens throats, hoping you can destroy their natural born faith in God"
How does a universal scientific theory become outdated? Does gravity have an expiration date we may not be aware of?
Children are born without any theories of a god. Those theories are often foisted onto them by parents, believer and non-believer alike, and then later by the child's environment.
hey, end religion, what do you have to say about your boy Dawkins and his "aliens seeding our planet with designed life theory", or do you even know anything other than your limited, brainwashed, and indoctrinated views
Is that all you got ? that I spelled a word wrong, wow, genius debating here
yer just another God hater, so blinded by your hate – you can't see straight
Is this your personal mission, babysitting this thread – you said "we" , I think it is just you...
did you see, I mis-spelled yer for you, so no need to go off on some side trail – Tell us again about your clown boy Dawkins and his stellar scientific theories, PLEASE
It really is all about God – one way or the other, because you God-haters are screaming louder than anyone – preaching your religion and selling your belief system, same thing friend – doesn't seem to matter if it's true – until you find a better story, it's the only one you got... pretty pitiful
there are no god theories.... just delusional ideas constructed thousands of years ago that continue to bend to science. religious thinking has produced not one single fact. just rubbish and rubbish spewing lesser intellects.
it's comically hilarious that time and again science slowly bends religion over and gives it a jolly rogering.
the mentally ill people who consider themselves adherents to religions can't seem to work it out that the cure for cancer won't come from any religious ideology.... it will come from science.
lolz religion fails
tolerance of religious idiocy has to END.
enough is enough
@FakeLiberal: "hey, end religion, what do you have to say about your boy Dawkins and his "aliens seeding our planet with designed life theory", or do you even know anything other than your limited, brainwashed, and indoctrinated views"
As I asked previously, send the video link so I can see what Dawkins is talking about. I know that there is a hypothesis about meteorites seeding the earth with the basic building blocks of life, but that's not Dawkins's theory. I do admit my brain is programmed seems to be attracted to fact and not magic, though I do enjoy a good magic show.
"yer just another God hater, so blinded by your hate – you can't see straight"
I do not believe in any god. I therefore cannot hate it.
"...you God-haters are screaming louder than anyone"
I've simply replied to your posts. Is that against your god's rules too?
From the article: "Scientists say that the Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old and that the universe dates back 13.7 billion years"
Not all scientists believe this based on scientific facts. Respected, well-trained scientists in all fields also accept the "theory" of a young earth based on scientific evidence including "ancient-like" geological formations at the site of Mount St. Helens and polystrate tree fossils in Joggins, Nova Scotia, Canada... Although evolution is largely accepted by the scientific community as "fact", it is still a "theory" that has some holes, such as the lack of transitional species, the circular reasoning used to date fossils and the strata that they're found in, and the astronomical improbability of atoms coming together randomly to form the simplest building blocks of life (much less organizing into a living cell!).
Evidence itself is often interpreted by our beliefs, and it takes courage to admit when you're wrong. For example, if it is scientifically accepted that blood and soft tissue cannot be preserved over "millions of years", and you find T. rex fossils with blood vessels and red blood cells, you either a) conclude that the fossils can't be millions of years old based on the presence of the blood/vessels or b) conclude that the blood/vessels *can* be preserved because the fossils must be millions of years old.
As someone commented before, what it boils down to is faith - whether you take the evidence (scientific, historical and predictive - fulfilled prophecies) and choose to believe that a sovereign Creator made life on this earth for a purpose, or if you take the evidence and choose to believe that random processes without purpose culminated in life. And not just life - morality, imagination, etc. As human beings, we are free to make this choice. Please, choose wisely.
This Congressman was elected and has not hidden his beliefs, nor broken the law as an elected official. Also, he is not "anti-science" because, well... um... he's a medical doctor by training.
Just sharing some thoughts, knowing that many will disagree... as is your right! Please know that Jesus loves you and is concerned with your overall well-being and the practical aspects of your life. Have a nice day!
@sereenlee: "Not all scientists believe this based on scientific facts. Respected, well-trained scientists in all fields also accept the "theory" of a young earth based on scientific evidence including "ancient-like" geological formations at the site of Mount St. Helens and polystrate tree fossils in Joggins, Nova Scotia, Canada..."
The only "scientists" that believe in a young earth are creation scientists who are blinded by the cause of their religion. They are respected only by other creation "scientists." The age of the earth is not determined by science in the way evolution is - it is determined by geologists. Biologists study life. Geologists study the planet. They cross paths when it comes to these religious questions because religious people insist on myth, and it is up to "the sciences" to show various lines of evidence in support of old earth.
"Although evolution is largely accepted by the scientific community as "fact", it is still a "theory" that has some holes, such as the lack of transitional species,"
There will never be enough transitional species to please a creationist. They only look at the gaps. In fact, if we start with 2 endpoints of evolution and look at the gaps, there is only one big one right in the middle. If we find a skull in the middle, and we have, then creationists point at the gaps which have increased from one gap to 2, and say "now evolution has bigger problem: more gaps." In this same way science finds more and more evidence, to which creationists see only more gaps.
The fact is that we now have many transitional fossils in the record: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
But it will never be enough for anyone crazy enough to only claim magic as the force behind civilization. You either choose to live in delusion or not.
"the circular reasoning used to date fossils and the strata that they're found in"
more creationist garbage. Read and learn: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-gc.html
"and the astronomical improbability of atoms coming together randomly to form the simplest building blocks of life (much less organizing into a living cell!)."
This is simply man's general inability to fathom the passage of long stretches of time. We think 100 years is a long time. It cannot compare to 1000 or 10,000. Imagining millions is very difficult. And in all that time, the improbable, however improbable, still may have the probability of occurring. The universe is old and incalculably vast. Shit happens.
Learn about the cell and how we currently hypothesize shit happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28biology%29
Note it doesn't involve magical gods.
"Evidence itself is often interpreted by our beliefs, and it takes courage to admit when you're wrong. For example, if it is scientifically accepted that blood and soft tissue cannot be preserved over "millions of years", and you find T. rex fossils with blood vessels and red blood cells, you either a) conclude that the fossils can't be millions of years old based on the presence of the blood/vessels or b) conclude that the blood/vessels *can* be preserved because the fossils must be millions of years old."
There is a common misconception among creationists that the tissues recovered were soft. This is not the case. After removing the surrounding minerals by soaking a weak acid, what was observed was a residual collagen matrix. Collagen proteins are about the toughest proteins we know of due to their unique structure. Contrary to your proposed conclusions is the third and correct conclusion supported by further empirical study, that is: collagen, unlike other typical proteins and other biomolecules (like DNA) can survive for tens of millions of years under certain conditions.
But don't take my word for it, here's Dr. Fazale Rana, scientist and Biblical apologist explaining:
"A Durable Molecule
As I’ve previously pointed out, it is not all that surprising that collagen (or at least fragments of it) could survive 68 million years in an environment devoid of water, oxygen, and microbes given its structure. Collagen’s basic structural unit is called a triple helix, consisting of three protein chains intertwining around each other. At certain points along the triple helix, the individual protein strands are chemically bound to each other to form crosslinks.
Numerous collagen triple helices assemble in a staggered fashion to form a larger structure called a collagen fibril. Large numbers of collagen fibrils in turn assemble, with the aid of other proteins, into collagen fibers.
The highly intertwined, cross-linked structure of collagen makes it reasonable that fragments of this molecule could survive for 68 million years. Even if the individual protein strands break down, the fiber would still remain largely intact because of all the association points. Once the protein strand breaks, the fragments are held in close proximity by the contact points. This forced closeness allows for broken strands to occasionally rejoin and reform the original protein. If the broken strands were not held juxtaposed to each other, the fragments would diffuse away from each other, thus, preventing the reversal of the degradation process.
Finally, collagen’s association with the bone matrix provides added stability to the collagen proteins. Within the bone matrix, collagen fibers adsorb to the mineral component of bone. The contact with the surface protects the protein and keeps the pieces of collagen juxtaposed whenever the protein strands break.
Collagen’s abundance further explains its presence in dinosaur fossils. Collagen fibers comprise one of the chief components of connective tissue, are embedded in the bone matrix, and help form blood vessels. In fact, collagen makes up around 25 to 30 percent of all proteins found in animals."
See also: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0020381
@redzoa - Thanks for your reply, I look forward to reading the links/info you shared. The purpose of my post was not to misinform. In addition to collagen, other components appear preserved including "naturally pigmented intravascular microstructures" (ie, evidence of heme-containing compounds):
@EndReligion: Thanks for taking the time to reply. Again, some scientists - including geologists, biologists, paleontologists, etc... - believe in creation (you may wish to check the Smithsonian link above). What you choose to label "magic" I choose to acknowledge as God, and not based on ignorance. We agree to disagree - based on my understanding as a Christian, denying the existence of God is not to your advantage, and I believe I have a responsibility to share this with you while respecting you as a person with freedom of choice.
@sereenlee – I believe your second reference discusses possible sources for the "naturally pigmented intravascular microstructures" (ie, evidence of heme-containing compounds)." But again, although certainly modifying our understanding of what remnant/degraded biomolecular structures can persist in fossilized bone, Schweitzer's does not remotely translate into evidence of a young-earth.
When you reference scientists who reject the scientific consensus of an ancient universe, evolution, etc, it's important to distinguish this incredibly small minority who expressly base their disagreement on their a priori faith-based views. They offer no positive evidence for their positions, only arguments of incredulity against the consensus views. As for your other examples alleging incompatibility with the scientific consensus (Mt. Saint Helens, lack of transitional fossils, abiogenesis, etc), I would encourage you to visit talkorigins.org and their index to creationist claims. You'll find all of your claims and many others addressed and refuted: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/
It is not insignificant that at every opportunity to present the "evidence" for creationism, whether in scientific literature, in the courts, or perhaps most tellingly, in commercial application (how many oil/mineral companies use "flood geology" over mainstream geology?), creationism has failed. Not only has creationism failed to dismantle the positive evidence for an ancient earth/evolution, it fails to remotely account for discordant observations with their proposed models. Take one example of many, the progressive order of the fossil record. Literal creationism has proposed any number of models (hydrodynamic sorting, ecological zoning, floating biomes, etc). None of these models, based on the presumption that all major classes of vertebrate life coexisted both pre- and post-flood, remotely account for the stratigraphical or biogeographical distributions of either extant or extinct forms.
Yes, every scientific theory is incomplete as our scientific knowledge must invariably be open to new evidence. But there comes a time when a doubt becomes unreasonable in light of the validated successful predictive capacity of a given branch of science. As evolution is based upon evidence from virtually every scientific discipline, to reject evolution is to effectively suggest the entire scientific practice is worthless. Somehow, I suspect you readily accept scientific conclusions based on these same underlying methods so long as they present no apparent contradiction to your preferred theology.
I believe we could distinguish our "worldviews" by whether or not we are willing to make particular concessions. I openly concede I could be wrong, that evolution could be false. It's possible. All I would need to reject evolution is some particularly confounding physical evidence, for example, discovery of a human fossil alongside a dinosaur fossil, an organism with radically different fundamental composition (not DNA/RNA-based), a true "chimera"(the enigmatic "croco-duck"), the doc-umented observation of a specially-created organism, etc. What physical evidence could persuade you that evolution is correct or that your faith-based conclusions are false? Is there honestly any quantum of physical evidence that would shift your position on either of these fronts? If yes, then what would that physical evidence need to be and alternatively, if no evidence could be sufficient, then why not?
Right you are, brian. USA is so behind in science and math because of these crazy christians who would rather take unproven theories over facts (proven theories). I can not fathom why would anyone take this school of thought. Misguided, perhaps? Obtuse, maybe? Brainwashed? Hmmm.
The Real Truth About Being Saved…
Understand, it's not so much what people do – but is rather what they fail to do or don't do – that sends their soul to hell. No matter how bad a person you think you are, God can still save you if you want to be saved and are willing to commit to the process to be saved. But there is something you must do to receive that salvation…
Yes, Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, but there is still something you must do. You are not simply saved because he did that. Jesus died to make it "possible" for you to be saved. He has opened the door for you and invites you to come. But if you don't follow his instructions and go through the door, you will still go to hell…
The first step to being saved is you must "believe". Even if you are an atheist, you must change your mind and believe. This is not talking about believing that God exists and believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. Even Lucifer believes that, yet he's not saved. This belief is talking about "do you believe the words of the true sent preacher". We wouldn't know anything about God or Jesus except the preacher told us (the apostles). Therefore, God is asking us, Do you believe that preacher and what he says? You don't have to "know personally" that God exists, and you don't have to have "proof" of that fact. If the preacher says he exists, then do you believe him? That is what God is asking you. He will save those who believe that preacher…
The next step is to repent for your sins. Simply desiring to be saved because you don't want to go to hell and burn in the flames is not a good enough reason for God to save you. God is no fool. He sees what is in your heart. He knows your reasons and your motives. And you cannot deceive him. To be saved you must love God, you must love his ways and his actions. If you hate God and only love sin and the Devil, then with the Devil in the lake is where you shall spend eternity. Even if you are trapped in sin and can't stop sinning, if in your mind you "desire" to stop sinning and would want to stop sinning if God can show you a way to stop – then God can save you. He has a way to give you the strength to stop. No matter how bad a person you think you are, he can forgive you for your sins and then give you the strength to stop. (That strength is the Holy Ghost. That is what the Holy Ghost is for. It will give you the strength in your body and mind to stop sinning). Thus, you must repent for your current sins, and then have a desire to stop. That is the second requirement…
The third and final requirement is you must be baptized in water. Even Jesus was baptized in water. Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Thus, you must be baptized in water according to Acts 2:38. Acts 2:38 shows you and illustrates exactly how the apostle's did it, and that is the correct baptism. No other baptism will save you. And once you have been baptized and completed the above three steps, God will give you the Holy Ghost. It is a promise. God doesn't lie. You shall receive it whether you think so or not. And with the Holy Ghost, you will then have the power and the strength to finally stop sinning. It can be done…
It is a promise. By following the above three steps, you can be saved. No matter how bad a person you think you are or what you have done, God can still save you if you are reading this. But if you "fail" to do this or refuse to do it for any reason, then you shall have no excuse, and that is why you'll be sent to hell. Not for the countless sins you've committed. But because God offered you a way out and you rejected it. On Judgment Day you'll get to see countless people standing before God who has done horrendous things in their lifetime. Yet God is not even going to deal with that. Instead, he will only highlight and show them all the chances and opportunities he gave them to be saved and how they rejected it. That is what they will be shown. And because they rejected it, they are now going the lake. Therefore, if you are reading this and reading these words, then save yourself. I implore you to save yourself. God himself implores you to save yourself. Don't got to hell because of anyone else. Save yourself. Because Judgment Day is coming as surely as you are reading this. And where shall you stand on that day?…
There is no such thing as being saved because there is no God or Jesus. It's all nonsense. When you die you go to same place you were before you were born–nowhere.
Pateyroo… If that is what you believe then you have a huge surprise waiting for you...
Psalms 53:1 – The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Graystone, quoting a book to defend that same book only illustrates the weakness of your argument. You may believe that there is a god, and that he is the christian god, but you don't have a single shred of evidence to support that belief. There isn't any evidence to support the existence of any of the literally thousands of gods worshiped by humans throughout history. Cultural habit and wishful thinking do not const.itute proof.
graystone, no christian will be "saved" by any god...
Proof Every Christian Goes to Hell by End Religion
1) The only irredeemable sin against your Lord thy God is denying him, the Holy Spirit
2) To deny is to refuse to admit truth of or to refuse to give that which is requested
3) Any sin is to deny god of his commandments
4) Therefore, even one sin results in a soul that cannot be forgiven. Sin once, and you're going to hell whether you repent or not. Since Christians are "born into sin" they're automagically damned to hell and cannot be forgiven.
There's no hell. No heaven. You die. You're dead.
Tallulah13… I'm not making an argument. I'm merely stating the truth. You can either accept it or reject it. Just because you disbelieve the truth, that doesn't make it untrue. It only makes you an unbeliever...
End Religion… Man cannot forgive sin, but God can. The blood of Jesus Christ is able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness…
1 John 1:9 – If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
gray. Just because you believe it doesn't make it true. As there are thousands of gods, please show your evidence for the non-existence of, say, Odin.
@graystone: "The blood of Jesus Christ is able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness…"
Aside from a disturbing and disgusting proposition, bathing in anyone's blood does nothing but cover us in blood and make us smell like copper. Certainly there is nothing redeeming about it.
Just because you want to believe something doesn't mean it's true, Graystone. You have chosen to believe something that is not supported by reality. Your threats are hollow and bible verses have no authority.
If you wish for others to believe your claims, you should provide evidence.
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.