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Liberal Catholics use election results to battle bishops
Archbishop Timothy Dolan sounded a nuanced tone on politics at a recent bishops meeting.
November 13th, 2012
03:02 PM ET

Liberal Catholics use election results to battle bishops

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) - Emboldened by the re-election of President Barack Obama, a cadre of liberal Catholic activists and groups is waging a campaign alleging that America's Catholic bishops are out of touch with Catholic laypeople.

The Catholic bishops, who are in Baltimore this week for a quarterly meeting, spoke out against the Obama administration during the election cycle over what they said were White House violations of religious freedom.

Some bishops also spoke out against legalized gay marriage and abortion rights, positions embraced by many Republicans.

A Sunday opinion piece in the National Catholic Reporter by Thomas Reese, a Jesuit priest at Georgetown University, hammered the bishops for their public proclamations during the campaign, saying the church leaders' “political strategy … is not working.”

“A majority of Catholics voted for Obama, and gay activists won every referendum,” Reese wrote, referring to initiatives legalizing gay marriage in Maine, Maryland and Washington.

Exit polls showed that Catholics narrowly voted for Obama, by 50% to 48%.

Reese also noted that Republican Senate candidates in Missouri and Indiana who voiced very conservative lines on abortion were defeated.

Catholics United and Catholics for Choice, two liberal Catholic groups, released statements around the meeting decrying the bishops' “failures” during the 2012 campaign.

“The bishops had a miserable return on investment of Catholic people's money and we demand an accounting of how they spent it campaigning on measures that Catholics clearly did not support,” wrote Catholics for Choice President Jon O'Brien.

Catholics United is delivering a petition to the Catholic bishops that calls on them to "reconsider their alliance with the Republican Party and refocus their attention on caring for the poor and vulnerable.”

In remarks to the 250 bishops assembled in Baltimore, bishops conference President Timothy Dolan touched on politics, sounding a nuanced tone.

“The premier answer to the question ‘What's wrong with the world? What's wrong with the church?’ is not politics, the economy, secularism, sectarianism, globalization or global warming,” Dolan said.

"The answer to the question ‘What's wrong with the world?’ is just two words: ‘I am,' ” he continued, quoting author G.K. Chesterton.

Other archbishops at the meeting seemed to double down on the fight for religious liberty and same-sex marriage, according to the Catholic News Service.

Archbishop William E. Lori of Baltimore, in a report to a committee on religious liberty, stated that “whatever setbacks or challenges in the efforts to defend religious liberty we may be experiencing, we're going to stay the course.”

San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore J. Cordileone addressed the spate of successful gay marriage initiatives, saying that “people don't understand what marriage is.”

“This is not a time to give up but rather a time to redouble our efforts,” he said.

The fight between liberal and conservative factions of the Catholic Church has been simmering for years, playing out in parishes, in college campuses and on the national political stage, with the vice presidential candidacy of two Catholics: Joe Biden and Paul Ryan.

In their sole debate together, Biden and Ryan gave different reads on how their faith shaped their politics. Biden focused on Catholic social teaching about helping the poor while Ryan talked about his belief that life begins at conception.

Steve Schneck, a Catholic University scholar who was supportive of Obama's candidacy, disagreed with liberals who are criticizing the bishops, saying most bishops did not weigh in on the election.

"Only a handful of bishops were involved, and it is about the same number that was involved in 2008,” he said.

“Most Catholics, whether they are politically liberal or politically conservative, are not interested in seeing their priests become politically involved,” said Schneck, the Obama campaign’s national co-chairman for Catholics. "They want their parishes and archdioceses to become politics-free zones.”

- Dan Merica

Filed under: 2012 Election • Catholic Church • Politics

soundoff (569 Responses)
  1. stewartiii

    NewsBusters: CNN Promotes Liberal Catholics’ Attack on Bishops
    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/paul-wilson/2012/11/14/cnn-promotes-liberal-catholics-attack-bishops

    November 14, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
  2. Sane Person

    Religious people = book worshippers. Your entire faith depends on whether or not a book is true. If the book is untrue then your religion means nothing, so basically, your god is no greater than a man-made book. If your faith cannot survive without a book it must not be very powerful.

    November 14, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your faith is useless.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
    • Sane Person

      My point exactly.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      1 Corinthians 1:18

      For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:38 pm |
    • Huebert

      Bill

      What exactly are you being saved from?

      November 14, 2012 at 4:40 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      My self

      November 14, 2012 at 4:55 pm |
    • Sane Person

      Jesus (who is actually god) died to save us from.. God.. Who is Actually Jesus? Oh yeah makes sense.

      November 14, 2012 at 5:09 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      How would you have done it differently?

      November 15, 2012 at 9:25 am |
    • Leif

      Don't knock books. Books are cool. The people who read them may not be, but that is their problem.

      November 18, 2012 at 5:01 am |
  3. JohnnyR

    Not sure why more Catholics didn't vote for Romney. They are both cults. Catholicism breaks many of the ten commandments.

    November 14, 2012 at 2:55 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Johnny,

      Your version of christinity is a cult too...

      November 14, 2012 at 3:02 pm |
    • Mercydivine

      'On this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it....

      November 14, 2012 at 4:18 pm |
  4. JohnnyR

    The numbers are not accurate, as many Christians did not bother voting in this election. They could not choose, in good faith, to pick between the Muslim and the Mormon. Hopefully next election we will have much better choices.

    November 14, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      A Buddhist and a Shintoist perhaps?

      November 14, 2012 at 2:49 pm |
    • JohnnyR

      I think the Republicans should put forth a radial right wing young black woman candidate and the democrats a staunchy old rich liberal loony and see who takes the african american vote.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • Sane Person

      If you believe that Obama is a Muslim I cannot take you or anything you say seriously. I'll just disregard you as a delusional right wing nut

      November 14, 2012 at 2:54 pm |
    • JohnnyR

      He obviously isn't a Christian based on his beliefs and the groups that he supported. Maybe look up the word "taqiyya", you may learn something today...

      November 14, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • Christianity is a mental disease- FACT

      JohnnyR

      The numbers are not accurate, as many Christians did not bother voting in this election. They could not choose, in good faith, to pick between the Muslim and the Mormon. Hopefully next election we will have much better choices.

      Quite the opposite...look at the numbers Romney got vs when McCain ran. The reaility might actually be more of the "unbelievers in fantasy" are voting now....could that be our youth who are less brainwashed in magic sky faries? Very scary times ahead for Christians...you are becoming outdated..and quite comical to watch.

      November 14, 2012 at 3:01 pm |
    • Christianity is a mental disease- FACT

      PS as for your Muslim remark. ... you clearly an example of why Romney lost......WAKE UP CALL...educate yourself instead of feeding your fear

      November 14, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
    • religion; a way to control the weak minded

      The fact you base your vote on religious affiliation makes you ignorant.

      November 14, 2012 at 3:35 pm |
    • Observer

      Johnny,

      If you can produce ANY PROOF that Barack Obama has engaged for the last 35 years in the strict religeous restrictions that Islam requires, then do it. Otherwise, you are totally CLUELESS. (Don't worrry, we already know the answer)

      November 14, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • ynnhoj

      johnnyretard. Get over yourself and your racist agenda.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:22 pm |
    • TeaPatriot

      You are right, Johnny

      two clues

      1. His middle name
      2. he has talked about "my muslim faith" in recorded videos. I have seen on u-tube.
      3. passages from his books ( I cant remember em so cant quote em)

      November 14, 2012 at 9:27 pm |
  5. krussell

    The primary reason the church is losing young people is the flow of information. When I was a prisoner in Catholic grade school I would have had to donate a serious amount of time to finding and researching mistakes (and general dumb stuff) in the bible. Kids today can find it in seconds.

    November 14, 2012 at 1:37 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      krussel,

      Exactly, if we had the internet when I was in Catholic school I would have dropped the church and christianity long before I did.

      November 14, 2012 at 1:46 pm |
    • JohnnyR

      Wow, don't know why you would need the internet to find fault with Catholicism. Jesus himself rebuked the religious throughout most of the New Testament...

      November 14, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Sane Person

      All you need to see the flaws in the bible is a bible.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • JohnnyR

      And to think how accurate science has been over the Millennia...

      The Bible never stated that the Earth was flat....

      November 14, 2012 at 2:59 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Johnny,

      I had found plenty of fault that was easy, it took the internet for me to realize I wasn't alone and my criticisms were valid. Until the internet the only place to go for theological questions were believers.

      November 14, 2012 at 3:00 pm |
    • Christianity is a mental disease- FACT

      Johnny ...the fact that you consider a bible as relevent is telling.

      November 14, 2012 at 3:06 pm |
    • Bill

      "The Bible never stated that the Earth was flat."

      Isaiah 11:12
      And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

      Revelations 7:1
      And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

      Job 11:9
      The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

      Job 28:24
      For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

      Job 37:3
      He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.

      Job 38:4-6
      Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
      Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
      Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

      Job 38:13
      That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

      Jeremiah 16:19
      O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

      Daniel 4:11
      The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

      November 14, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
  6. Blessed are the Cheesemakers

    "It can't just change its dogma."

    OOO,

    The catholic church has changed its dogma numerous times.....Purgatory as an example.

    November 14, 2012 at 12:08 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      While the emphasis on the doctrine of Purgatory has changed over time, the doctrine itself has not.

      November 14, 2012 at 12:27 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Bill Deacon
      Infant Limbo is gone from Catholicism....

      November 14, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Bill,

      Purgatory itself may be taught but the details surrounding it have changed. And why did they change? Did the CC come into some grand divine information? No....they were losing membership and had to change because of social pressure.

      And where exactly is the ascension of Mary mentioned in the gospels?

      November 14, 2012 at 1:12 pm |
    • junior

      Not accurate, purgatory has been defined. Jews believed in purgatory.

      November 14, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      junior,

      How can one get out of purgatory, can relatives buy their way out? It has not been a dogmatically consistent teaching.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
    • junior

      One gets out of purgatory when one is clean of sin. Sin cannot enter Heaven.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:10 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      junior,

      You side stepped the issue that the CC used to tell parishoners they could buy their relatives out.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:14 pm |
    • sam

      I'm beginning to wonder if Bill works for the pope and is a plant in here.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:22 pm |
    • Mercydivine

      The Church has not changed it's 'doctrine' and 'practicing Catholics' overwhelmingly voted for Romney...

      November 14, 2012 at 4:05 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Infant limbo was never dogmatic. The OP stated that dogma has changed and that is not true. Theories and theological explanations have been introduced and evolved or discarded over time and practices have been twisted and usually corrected (we are after all talking about a 2000 year old organization) but the dogma has not changed. I only correct those who would argue with the Church but set up their own pet straw men to do so, misleading others into untrue representations of the faith.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:17 pm |
    • Dippy

      Have you seriously considered that this is all meaningless bullshit?

      November 15, 2012 at 12:46 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Since Judeo Christianity is the fundamental philosophy on which modern western society is built, shaping everything from our laws to our economics to our educational system and our medical practices AND has been the major religious force for generation after generation of over one third of the world's population, giving purpose, focus, structure and stability to the whole of humanity, the answer is no. I do however,make allowance for people like you who benefit from that society to languish in your own ignorance and sloth, suckling on the teat of the society you've been privileged to inherit from those who formed it.

      November 15, 2012 at 9:31 am |
  7. Huebert

    The RCC is facing an important decision. Will it change with the times in order to remain relevant, or will it hold to the "truth" of the gospels and fade away?

    November 14, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • OOO

      This isn't a political party. It can't just change its dogma. That would be admitting the founding principles were wrong an invalidate the religion as a whole.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:56 am |
    • Huebert

      OOO

      They wouldn't have to admit that they are wrong, they would just have to reinterpret the scriptures.

      November 14, 2012 at 12:01 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      They'll get around to it eventually.
      It may have taken them 300 years or so, but they finally did admit that Copernicus had a point....

      November 14, 2012 at 12:30 pm |
    • OOO

      I guess what I am saying is that they have to fade away either way. If they hold on to the "truth of the gospels" with an iron fist, they will lose relevancy. If they keep changing to stay with the times, they will eventually be a ghost of a former religion.

      November 14, 2012 at 12:56 pm |
    • Huebert

      OOO

      In that case we agree. So now we play the waiting game. :)

      November 14, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • OOO

      Herbert,
      What percentage of people who call themselves Catholics (or Christians even) do you think secretly question whether Mary was a virgin or Jeses himself was anything more than a mortal man? And without these major doctrins, where does the religion go next?

      I'm guessing 5-20% question these things.

      November 14, 2012 at 1:04 pm |
    • junior

      The Church never disagreed with Copernicus. Did you mean Galileo? They didn't disagree with Galileo's findings however Galileo wanted to step into the realm of Theology and needed to be put in his place.

      November 14, 2012 at 1:56 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "Galileo wanted to step into the realm of Theology and needed to be put in his place."

      junior,

      Because the CC couldn't allow him to disagree with their made up sh1t....that would have threatened their make believe authority.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:11 pm |
    • sam

      Oh junior. Don't you find it adorable that they later had to admit they were wrong about it?

      November 14, 2012 at 2:24 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      I'm calling poe of junior. The church didn't have a problem with Galileo? I haven't heard something that stupid since someone tried to use moon dust to prove a 6,000-10,000 year old universe.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Junior is correct. The church never had issue with Galileo's science (which turned out to be wrong anyway). What caused Galileo problems was his insistence that his theories were theologically dogmatic (they were not) coupled with his ridicule of the pope who had been his supporter.

      So Galileo caused his own problems from lack of people skills more than anything.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @BIll

      Really? Despite that the charges against him were for heresy in defending a heliocentric universe condemned by the church in 1616?
      Was his science wrong when his observations of a full set of phases for venus didn't match up with a purely geocentric universe? Or the fact that the 4 moons of Jupiter proved that everything wasn't orbiting the earth, and that smaller objects sometimes orbit larger ones did the same to the Aristotelian cosmological model that Venus's phases did? Was it wrong when he made a pretty good topographical map of the moon showing that it is not a translucent perfect sphere as previously thought?

      November 14, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bill Deacon

      Aww don't run away and just post inane crap yet.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:57 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      As simply as possible – He was right when he illustrated the prevalent scientific belief that the universe was geocentric. He was wrong when he proposed that the universe was heliocentric which the Church would have allowed as scientific theory. He was way wrong when he insisted that heliocentrism become dogmatic to the faith. In the same fashion those who would advocate the Church to change dogma to suit there temporal and whimsical desires must face the Magesterium who are charged with defending the dogma and proclaiming the Gospel, which is unchanging. So, it ain't gonna happen. It should be noted for the uninformed that matters of science, politics, economy and culture are not dogmas, they are teachings or disciplines and those have and do change but the argument this afternoon is that dogma changes and the fact is that it does not and in the absence of a Papal dictum Ex Cathedra, (seven in history, all supporting existing dogma) there will not be a change in the Catholic dogma.

      November 14, 2012 at 5:05 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      oops error. Should read Galileo was right when he illustrated geocentrism was mistaken.

      November 14, 2012 at 5:06 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bill Deacon

      What a lovely tangent. The fact remains that Galileo was convicted of heresy against the church, his science, in many areas, was sound and his deductions are now well supported. As far as I've found, he did not say that heliocentrism become "dogmatic", as it was merely stated that he thought, based on his observations, that movement in the verses meant a different type of movement, or that the entire thing was metaphorical, which the church was later forced to change to anyway.

      November 14, 2012 at 6:27 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      The official sentence against Galileo reads: "We say, sentence, and declare that you, Galileo, by reason of the evidence arrived at in the trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy

      There is a line between suspected of and convicted of. I mean really, why choose ignorance just to keep one of your pet clubs against the Church?

      Can you describe for us how Galileo thought the tides were formed? Was he correct? Parts of Galileo's science were, in fact correct, parts were not. Why do you indict the Church for refusing to accept faulty science as doctrine? If they had embraced all of Galileo's ideas you would be standing here today telling us how foolish the Church was for believing it. If you've made the presupposition that the Church is wrong no matter what it does there's really no point in the discussion is there?

      November 15, 2012 at 9:41 am |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Bill

      If the church was opposed to the faulty science, then why didn't they say so. Why heresy? Why not put out a statement that actually told the truth (that Galileo's tide science didn't add up) instead of being opposed to the very idea of a non-geocentric universe based on their Holy Book?
      And again, you completely ignore the part where I have found nothing that supports your assertion that Galileo demanded they accept it as religious doctrine, and as far as I've seen merely said that those passages may have been metaphorical or the type of movement stated in the scripture was a different type of movement (no idea what he meant by that), and therefore not necessarily opposed to scripture.

      November 15, 2012 at 1:26 pm |
  8. markinator

    The catholic bishops seriously need to reassess their role in american society. They have really confused a lot of the catholic faithful, and caused a deep schism nationwide, between those of us willing to make society a better place by adapting to modern trends, and those that have difficulty thinking outside of the bible.

    November 14, 2012 at 11:15 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      You seem to fall into the category that feels the Church needs to adopt to prevailing thoughts and trends. But that is not what the Bishops are ordained to do. They have taken a vow to protect and announce the Gospel. They are expressly prohibited from adapting to popular culture precisely because popular culture changes while the Gospel does not. I believe American Catholics are drunk on their own sense of self determinism.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:40 am |
    • sam

      The bishops are out of touch with the gospel too, Bill. They've made it whatever they need it to be to stay in power. Give it a rest.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:52 am |
    • lionlylamb

      "They are expressly prohibited from adapting to popular culture precisely because popular culture changes while the Gospel does not."

      That's why they have changed their minds and interpretations of the bible over time, you don't know the church.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:55 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Bill,

      Catholic dogma has changed many, many times. Heck they add things to their dogma that are not even in the gospels.

      November 14, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
    • junior

      Society has confused many catholics. Serious Catholics have no problem seeing Truth despite social pressures.

      November 14, 2012 at 1:57 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Which version of make believe "truth" are your refering too junior?

      November 14, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • religion; a way to control the weak minded

      "Serious Catholics have no problem seeing Truth despite social pressures"

      Serious Catholics have no problem SPECULATING on the "truth" despite social pressures....there fixed.

      November 14, 2012 at 3:39 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Please cite an instance of change in dogma. I'll check back tomorrow to see no postings

      November 14, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • Observer

      Bill Deacon,

      Of course the church has changed over the years. The mindless commands to kill from the Old Testament are gone. The support of slavery is gone. Even discrimination against women and the handicapped has changed.

      November 14, 2012 at 4:28 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      We're talking about dogma observer

      November 14, 2012 at 4:46 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Bill Deacon
      OK – let's talk about Dogma.
      Pope Boniface VIII promulgated the Bull Unam Sanctam in which he made the Dogma clear:
      "With faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin . . ."
      Pope Eugenius, in the Papal Bull Cantata Domino, said:
      "It (Roman Church) firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

      What does it mean to be "in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church"?
      Why that means: "The members of the Church are those who have validly received the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith, and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church."
      This is Dogma.

      And yet the modern Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
      "The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of Blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament."

      That completely and directly contradicts the aforementioned Papal Bull:
      ". . .no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

      So which is it?
      The Catechism or the Papal Bull?

      November 15, 2012 at 9:44 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Doc, thanks for that question. I had to research it a little to find out. A Papal Bull is not dogma. It is merely the pronouncement of the Pope. Much like a "bully pulpit" statement from a President I suppose. So, in the case where the Papal bull and the catechism are in conflict, the catechism is pre-eminant.

      Cue the jokes on Papal bull.

      November 15, 2012 at 11:25 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @BIll Deacon
      The Cantate Domino is an Ex Catehdra pronouncement, therefore considered infallible – even though it contradicts the Catechism.
      .

      November 15, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      All this screwing around over some delusional pope's words when the foundation for the RCC cult – that there is at least one god and The Babble is his word – has not been even remotely established. But do carry on discussing the rules to the world's biggest fantasy role playing game, with heavy emphasis on fantasy.

      November 15, 2012 at 11:52 am |
  9. Gerald

    God help us the day that the CC starts going with what is popular and humanist to decide what is right and wrong. Right and wrong does not change with elections. If it did the CC should not have protected Jews when Hitler was elected.

    November 14, 2012 at 10:45 am |
    • Akira

      The RCC didn't protect the Jews, not at all.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:30 am |
    • The Truth

      I think he meant to say " If it did the CC should not have protected Hitler when he was elected." At least, that's the more accurate historical reality.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:34 am |
    • Young Skywalker

      How could they protect the Jews from Hitler ??? They planted the seeds of antisemitism a thousand years prior .. :) :) :)

      November 14, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • sam

      LOL 'right and wrong'. What BS.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • sam stone

      Yeah, much better that right and wrong be determined by iron age sheep paramours

      November 14, 2012 at 11:55 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      In the Italian town of Essisi during World War II, 300 Jewish people were sheltered and protected by a peasant turned priest, Father Rufino Niccacci. He dressed many of them as monks and nuns, taught them Catholic ritual, and hid them in the monasteries. Others lived in parishioner's homes and, with fake id cards, found jobs and blended into the community. The town's printing press, which during the day printed posters and greeting cards, at night clandestinely printed false docoments that were sent by courier to Jewish all over Italy.

      Not a single refugee was captured in Essisi. No one who participated in the rescue operation ever betrayed it.

      November 14, 2012 at 11:59 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      NEW YORK, JUNE 15, 2009 (Zenit.org).- A foundation that promotes interreligious dialogue announced that it has more than 2,300 pages of original docoments illustrating Pope Pius XII's efforts to help Jews in the face of Nazism.

      Gary Krupp, president of the New York-based Pave the Way Foundation, affirmed this today in a statement to ZENIT, and stated that the docoments from the years 1940-1945 will be made available to the public for research.

      The president, himself a Jew, reported that these papers, found through the organization's private research, give "strong support to the argument that Pope Pius XII - Eugenio Pacelli - worked diligently to save Jews from Nazi tyranny."

      I mean seriously have you people even heard of Google?

      November 14, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Don't worry Gerald, I don't think anyone would accuse the CC of 'humanistic' in motovation.

      November 14, 2012 at 12:42 pm |
  10. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    See me heal my dog with prayer at saladandchips.com.

    November 14, 2012 at 9:27 am |
  11. snowboarder

    religious leaders are often the most regressive. it is the very nature of religion.

    November 14, 2012 at 8:44 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      nice sweeping statement. stereotype much?

      November 14, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
    • Dippy

      Capitalize much?

      November 15, 2012 at 12:48 am |
  12. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things .

    November 14, 2012 at 7:34 am |
    • niknak

      What if I don't want things changed?

      November 14, 2012 at 8:14 am |
    • TrollAlert

      "Ronald Regonzo" who degenerates to:
      "Salvatore" degenerates to:
      "Douglas" degenerates to:
      "truth be told" degenerates to:
      "Thinker23" degenerates to:
      "Atheism is not healthy ..." degenerates to:
      "another repentant sinner" degenerates to:
      "Dodney Rangerfield" degenerates to:
      "tina" degenerates to:
      "captain america" degenerates to:
      "Atheist Hunter" degenerates to:
      "Anybody know how to read? " degenerates to:
      "just sayin" degenerates to:
      "ImLook'nUp" degenerates to:
      "Kindness" degenerates to:
      "Chad" degenerates to
      "Bob" degenerates to
      "nope" degenerates to:
      "2357" degenerates to:
      "WOW" degenerates to:
      "fred" degenerates to:
      "!" degenerates to:
      "pervert alert" is the degenerate.

      This troll is not a christian!

      November 14, 2012 at 8:28 am |
    • Jesus

      Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs.~

      November 14, 2012 at 8:31 am |
    • Hows it unhealthy?

      I don't understand how atheism is unhealthy for children. So what, should a little child fear burning in Hell for all eternity for being a little naughty? Or should they get a time out? To me, the latter sounds much healthier than a life long fear of where they'll end up when they die.

      November 17, 2012 at 2:30 am |
  13. Reality

    Dear Archbishop Dolan,

    For your next sermon:

    Saving Christians from the Infamous Resurrection Con/

    From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

    Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

    To wit;

    From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

    "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
    Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

    Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

    Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

    The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

    Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts, i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers.

    The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

    "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
    http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

    The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

    With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

    An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

    p.4

    "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

    p.168. by Ted Peters:

    Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

    So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

    November 14, 2012 at 6:57 am |
    • snowboarder

      why would anyone really care?

      November 14, 2012 at 8:46 am |
    • Reality

      Now all we need to do is convince these 3.5+ billion global and local citizens that they have been conned all these centuries Time for a YouTube,Twitter and FaceBook campaign!!!!

      November 14, 2012 at 10:41 am |
    • Mohammad A Dar

      @Reality, STOP publishing your crap, you fake, phony, fraud.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:28 pm |
    • Reality

      Only for the new members of this blog:

      The Apostles' Creed 2012: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
      Jerusalem.

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
      and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      Amen
      (references used are available upon request)

      November 14, 2012 at 4:48 pm |
  14. timothy canezaro

    Godbless the Holy Catholic Church and all the bishops worldwide!

    November 14, 2012 at 12:24 am |
    • HeavenSense

      Why?

      November 14, 2012 at 12:29 am |
    • timothy canezaro

      Well, because the church is a beacon of life in a dark and secular world. Bishops are being attacked left and right mostly by non catholics for doing their best at leading within a church to which they belong. Seems pretty common sense to not rip on or hate people of other religions, tribes and their holy people....but the catholic church and its leaders have and get ripped on ruthlessly by people that aren't even catholic. Just thought I'd send some love their way. That's why.

      November 14, 2012 at 12:33 am |
    • Simran

      You mean the pe.dophile protectors!

      November 14, 2012 at 12:37 am |
    • HeavenSense

      Hmmm....perhaps there are some very good reasons they are getting"ripped" ?

      November 14, 2012 at 12:58 am |
    • timothy canezaro

      Not according to me. So that's why I showed some love to the Bishops of the catholic church. Simran...you just illustrated my point...as a non catholic you are okay disrespecting me as a catholic and all the bishops all over the world. I never do that to any religion adherent or leader. Shows the differnce of where we are at spiritually. You literally are talking about thousands of bishops from every country and nationality all over the world when you insult like that. Anyway

      November 14, 2012 at 1:24 am |
    • HeavenSense

      What insult?

      November 14, 2012 at 1:51 am |
    • tallulah13

      I do wonder why people persist in praising a church that hoards millions of dollars worth of treasure and supports it's higher ranking members like princes, while some of their followers live in poverty and struggle to feed their children.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:24 am |
    • Belief Blog Bistro

      Roman Catholic Crepes. Great for breakfast! Smothered in strawberries and whip cream. Melts in your mouth, only $3.99. Try our bottomless coffee!

      November 14, 2012 at 2:57 am |
    • Blog Police

      Godbless in not a word.

      November 14, 2012 at 2:58 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      Every one of them is mentally ill (delusional), a liar or both. Fuck 'em all!

      November 14, 2012 at 3:08 am |
    • Sane Person

      Arrest the pope for being an enabler and protector of pedophiles

      November 14, 2012 at 8:57 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Amen Tim

      November 14, 2012 at 9:14 am |
    • fred

      @Tim

      Would it make a difference if a Catholic said it, because if so:

      You mean the pe.dophile protectors!

      November 14, 2012 at 9:24 am |
  15. Corner Cafe

    Try the Blah Blah Bacon Cheesburger. $6.99 (includes fries and Lg drink) Makes a great midnight snack!

    November 13, 2012 at 11:46 pm |
  16. Mohammad A Dar

    Yo "Blah...blah..Blah....da...Blah.....Blah.....blah......Blah.....blah," poster, send me your address, and I will send you an inflatable doll, free of charge, may be you should take your frustration out on back of her/him, goon.

    November 13, 2012 at 11:30 pm |
  17. BE A SALAHFI TO BE TRUE AMERICAN, DUMP HINDU ATHEISM, WAY OF hINDU, filthy ANIMALS.

    there is no other truth but to be a catfish, not SALT'FISH, or truth absolute GOD, every thing else is SALA HFI ism, denial of truth absolute GOD, Thin Allah, crime against truth absolute GAWD Constant killing and HIS inhumanity, sick goons.

    November 13, 2012 at 11:21 pm |
    • Belief Blog Bistro

      Goon Ginger Tomato Chutney (This dish can serve with dosa or idli) $7.99. Trolls get 10% off!

      November 13, 2012 at 11:36 pm |
  18. Bootyfunk

    fighting against the church = fighting against prejudice, misogyny and h.omophobia

    November 13, 2012 at 9:55 pm |
    • Super Friends

      Fighting against atheists = fighting against reason, common sense and intelligence.

      November 13, 2012 at 10:18 pm |
    • Mercydivine

      Fighting the hate and bigotry by the Know-Nothings.....

      November 14, 2012 at 4:14 pm |
  19. John Stefanyszyn

    Mr. Dolan , the problem is ...
    I am ...free...
    ...to serve & magnify oneself (XES)
    ...to embrace one's rights
    ...to embrace one's "religious" rights

    The problem is the belief in freedom of self rights, the worship of the "god of
    fortresses", of which the RCC is also guilty in its stand of freedom for all religions, of all gods....denying the preeminence of the One and Only Creator whose True Way is Only through Christ, His Son.

    November 13, 2012 at 9:53 pm |
    • BE A SALAHFI TO BE TRUE AMERICAN, DUMP HINDU ATHEISM, WAY OF hINDU, filthy ANIMALS.

      there is no other truth but truth absolute GOD, every thing else is hinduism, denial of truth absolute GOD, hind, crime against truth absolute GOD Constant and HIS humanity.

      November 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm |
    • End Religion

      The problem, John, is religion. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deluded people claim they know only "true" way, you among them.

      November 13, 2012 at 10:25 pm |
    • Mercydivine

      Me, Me, Me....I will not serve.....

      November 14, 2012 at 4:15 pm |
  20. Angel Moroni

    So the bishops are fallible after all even though they kept toeing the bible's lines.

    November 13, 2012 at 9:47 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.