(CNN)–CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor Eric Marrapodi explains how the Pope's new book challenges long held Christmas traditions.
Read the full story on the Pope's new book here.
Watch CNN Newsroom weekdays 9am to 3pm ET and weekends. For the latest from the CNN Newsroom click here.
Carnal beings, thinking and doing, never to learn Jesus' spiritual truth. You are too blind to see His truth whether I write it in street language or scripture form. My 12-year-old daughter started AA, but her kids still drink in front of her. Pay no attention to the small minded fools that got their brain fried.
stop your hinduism, absurdities, Son of blessed Mary is never mentioned as HE in book of Mithra ism, bible, but he. hinduism, criminality of hindu Mag's criminal Ticketmaster like you are cause of mayhem among humanity. Doing work of hindu Lucifer, criminal secular on name of truth absolute GOD.
Hindu-bot, a small minded fool, still lives in 60s, punch card computer user, goon.
HS, make your appointment. Your teeth will fall out. Come to the Carnal Dental Clinic before all is lost.
HS has a new handle. Where's fake HS when you need him?
What gave it away for you? For me it was the word carnal.
The clues are far too numerous and seeing as fake HS has been far too comprehensive in his/her handle stealing, I figured it wouldn't be long before the real HS came back under a different name.
I come on these articles on holidays and early in the mornings so Scotty can't steal my handle. I know from my bosses that satan's work is never done. My camel-toe applied for financial assistance but it earns too much. Keep being prideful atheists and find yourself on the other side of the canyon.
Gotta love fake HS.
...Luke 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Humans, my family, four wives and forty kids, cooked a 300 pound Pig yesterday, big pots of herbal flavored curries, sweet teas, hookahs with weeds, we had a great Thanksgiving night last night, we gave away all left over food, bones, skins to poor Taliban, my good deed of the day, oh I made some easy money on poker, goons.
best of the book of hinduism, absurdity called GITA, by a hindu, ignorant.
Been going on for a long time, Ratzinger is just joining the parade. Imagine, if you will, poor old Paul trying to make a coherent and somewhat believable bible out of the pile of BS stories he had to work with. I guess that is why he had to steal so many details and characteristics from me Dionysus and Mithra, who I morphed into. Well it sells a pile of books I guess.
Speaking truth is not part of hinduism, illegality and every hindu, criminal defends his hinduism, denial of truth absolute GOD, under hinduism corruption of truth absolute in his hinduism, fabrication called faith.
best of the book of Islamism, absurdity called Koran, by a Wahhabi goon, ignorant.
hinduism, absurdity of a hindu copy cat from hindered gutter of hinduism, illegality called india.
Islambism, absurdity of a Satan copy cat from litter land, illegality called Dari-Satan.
If only he'd go one further and admit the whole thing is bogus. I doubt it though, it's too lucrative.
"It has served us well this myth of Christ."
Religion is true to the ignorant, false to the wise, and useful to the powerful.
Huebert, surely you aren't so delusional to believe that you are wise? Then again, ego does have a lot of hot air to propel.
Calendar and Clock used by humanity and designed by hindu's pagans of hind, dark ages are based on hinduism, assumptions, not on truth absolute, Please visit limitisthetruth.com to learn True divide of time and date.
SUN DAY, DAY OF THE SUN AS A GOD OF hINDU'S, PAGANS. DAY OF CHRISTMAS, REBIRTH OF SUN GOD AND DAY OF CALIBRATION FOR GOOD HARVEST IN HINDU DARK DAYS OF hINDU PAGAN EUROPE.
You ready to save some souls this morning T?
Soul means desire, to worship hindu soul, filthy desire is not way of human but hindu, ignorant animals, some hindu, criminal human justify their hinduism, criminality with a hindu fabricated reason.
I hope to. What's up, dude?
Same ol' same ol', did you have a nice Thanksgiving?
Not bad. Had lunch with family, but had to work last night. You?
Great! Three football games and a great dinner. Thanks for asking. Carry on!
As far as the reporting on this video, I doubt there are many born-again Christians who didn't already know Christ wasn't born on Dec. 25 or at "year zero." It was likely 4-3 B.C.
I think you overestimate your own flock.
Very possible. Had you heard it before?
"Had you heard it before?"
Yep, way back in high school (Catholic one, btw). I graduated 50 years ago!
I had, in fact I learned that in church, back when I went. But my church was not an evangelical, born-again, church. I remember trying to convince one of my born-again friends that Jesus was not born on Christmas day when I was in high school, and he tried to punch me.
See what I mean? You guys had heard it before. I'm not sure why this is news. Perhaps the editor of Belief Blog hadn't heard it.
Not only has it been known for a long time that the character of Jesus was born well before the year "0" he most likely wasn't born in December, and this is according to biblical scholars.
There are so many contradictions in that book of multiple guess it is hard to make out the truth (small T) of what is in it. As just one example it is ridiculous to say that there was a census that would have required Joseph to go to the family's ancient home town. And there is no mention of a Roman census at this time even though they kept very good records of this type of thing.
Just another bible fail of many.
It would take to long to list them all here so I will just point you to a very popular website for the list and explanations.
There actually is evidence and not hard to find. By the way, a question – how do you define contradiction?
Pick one supposed contradiction and let's discuss it.
Here's a contradiction (although not Jesus related). God issued the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" through his prophet Moses, then they both massacre their way across the desert. Please explain.
Did God order those deaths?
New International Version (NIV)
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Yes many, he even took part in a few.
Korah, Dathan, Abiram and their respective families (including of course the little children) were killed around Moses' time. All their followers also. That's not to mention the Myriad of murders pre and post Moses.
And what was the reason He ordered it? Were they sinners?
They were living on the land promised to Moses's army...err people. That is why they had to be killed.
Lets start with an easy one:
The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.
He still massacred them. As Hitchens said, it's the celestial North Korea. By your logic, is it OK to massacre people for not following a bunch of narcissistic rules?
Or how about this. Can god ever been seen?
If any of us have broken His laws, we deserve punishment. That's as true today as it was then. And while yes, those people were occupying the land, that's not why they were squished. They were squished because of their defiance of God.
Honey Badger Dont Care
Luke's is Mary's genealogy. That's why they differ.
Joseph was Jesus' legal father. Just as when my step-father adopted me, legally, his family is now also mine.
Just so you know, you sound mentally deranged. Massacring people for disobeying Cthulhu is not a good idea.
They were squished because god said "Give Moses your land" and they said "No". That was their defiance. Any god will punish someone for defending their home is a god I want no part of.
I don't give a flying fvck about any xtian laws. I live in the US and am subject to Federal, State, and Local laws. Not the ones of your made up god.
I guess now you are going to threaten me with the infinite punishment of damnation for a finite crime of not believing. Yea, really just god you have there. Just another reason that if he does exist that he isnt worthy of worship.
Are we discussing contradictions or theology?
"I don't give a flying fvck about any xtian laws. I live in the US and am subject to Federal, State, and Local laws. Not the ones of your made up god."
Don't believe it if you don't want to, but you are subject to His laws whether you like it or not.
"I guess now you are going to threaten me with the infinite punishment of damnation for a finite crime of not believing. Yea, really just god you have there. Just another reason that if he does exist that he isnt worthy of worship."
I wasn't going to, but since you brought it up ... :) Yes, God is just. You might think something such as a white lie is nothing, but that depends on who you are lying to. If I lie to a child, nothing will happen to me. If I lie to my wife, I'll be sleeping on the couch. If I lie to my boss, I'd be fired. If I lie to the president, I could be thrown in jail or even killed for it. So how much more so would be the offense against God? So you might think it means nothing to lie, but to God it is worthy of Hell. But He shows the ultimate love and kindness to you and you still reject Him.
Which particular group of people are you refering to?
The people living in the promised land before Moses got their. I believe that their city was called Jericho. There crime was living on land promised to the Jews.
There were a LOT of different peoples living in this land. But since you specify the people living in Jericho, I'll look them up ...
Anyone else got a "contradiction" problem?
Honey Badger Dont Care, you are making me laugh. I suppose you read that on the Internet. Reminds me of the commercial about things on the INTERNET have to be true.
that was quick. Don't think I've added anyone so quickly to the Poe list before. Massacring millions because they weren't bullied into giving their land to a petulant god? lol, topher, congrats on being an exemplar christian and also the best example of why we must end religion. The world has no more use for your brand of insanity.
Then why did all of the people in one of the families live so much longer than all the families in the other line ? The number of generations is FAR different. Did you ever count them ? No Jew EVER counted the line through the woman. Not once. Name anyone, ever, other than Jebus, who lineage was done through the mother.,
AND topher is full of BS like the ICR and RCC god(s) did not create this..........you too Billy
Destiny & DNA......................World Science Festival
High Diversity of Flying Reptiles in England 110 Million Years Ago
June 12, 2013 — Brazilian paleontologists Taissa Rodrigues, of the Federal University of Espirito Santo, and Alexander W. A. Kellner, of the National Museum of the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, have just presented the most extensive review yet available of toothed pterosaurs from the Cretaceous of England. The study features detailed taxonomic information, diagnoses and photographs of 30 species and was published in the open access journal ZooKeys.
Three-Billion-Year-Old Microfossils Include Plankton
June 6, 2013 — Spindle-shaped inclusions in three-billion-year-old rocks are microfossils of plankton that probably inhabited the oceans around the globe during that time, according to an international team of researchers.
Personally, I'd love it if the Pope could write a book explaining exactly why pedophile priests remain not only in the fold, but unpunished for the raping of children that occurs rampantly within the RCC...because there is no QUESTION at all that is happening.
he's more likely to write a book with advice on how to hide an adult relationship with children. "Chapter 1: Child Molestation Basics".
Chapter 2: How Molestation can be Healthy for Children.
Chapter 3: It's not a Lie...If you believe it.
Chapter 4, How to clean those pesky stains from your robe.
Chapter 4: It Happens to the Best of Us; Overcoming Remorse.
Chapter 5: You have the wine? Now we can eat.
Chapter 6: Training your prey to keep their mouth shut.
Chapter 7: What Happens in the Confessional Stays in the Confessional!
Chapter 8 Practical tips on sound proofing your confessional.
Chapter 9: Bulge Inequality and how it affects you.
Akira, why would you or any atheist care? You're ensuring that Jesus Christ be wiped out allowing heathens to do what they want.
It's a war on Christmas!
Praise the Lord:
First of all, where did I ever say I was atheist? You assume facts not in evidence.
Second of all, I care about children because abused by the priests they trust. If YOU condone that, you are inhumane, and should really, really shut up. You are part of the problem, not the atheists you condemn, which, BTW, is going against Jesus' teachings by being a judgmental person.
My original post stands, with an additional question to YOU: why do you think it is perfectly acceptable NOT to care if the RCC clergy is raping children, whether or not one is an atheist?
Chapter 10: Putting Guilt to Work For You
Ok, that is ten chapters Akira, off to the presses!
Worship of reason and faith by hinduism, corruption of truth absolute, religion is not of the truthful but way of hindu's, deniers of truth absolute GOD to justify, unjustifiable. hinduism, denial of truth absolute GOD, foundation of America and existence. Message of blessed Mary was to obey truth absolute GOD in life, not hiud Mithra sim, pagan savior ism to commit hinduism, illegality in life.
I really want to see this Hindu hating troll and lionlylamb get into a conversation. They might be able to understand each other.
I saw this elsewhere, but it made me laugh: I wonder if there's an app I can download to translate both of them...
Did you miss the PPV?? It was awesome and ended in a draw. hindu retained the belt but experts are certain there will be a re-match!
D@mn it! I thought I was being original.
I was able to get the funds together for the PPV. It was a rousing success until we realized they had both managed to sneak weapons past our security efforts. Once they began beating and stabbing their "truth" into each other it went downhill fast.
I've discovered since then that Dreamer is also a Nazi, which is interesting since he goes on (and on) so pseudo-poetically about god's love. He was in the Isreal/Hamas story railing about Jew-this and Jew-that. I've been trying to prompt a rant elsewhere but no success yet. I suppose it'll be even harder after he reads this.
This is some Kick Ass T.V.
story of jesus isn't even original - it's been told before by cultures before christianity. jesus never existed. like hercules, he was a figure of myth. get over it.
There are 39 scriptures pertaining to Samson in the Bible that is obvious that you have never bothered to read. The authors of Hercules took their mythical hero from the Bible. Jesus made life simple, fools make it difficult.
wrong. i've read the bible from cover to cover, something you likely cannot say. YOU, however, obviously haven't read any of the myths from other cultures that the character of jesus is based on. and the authors of hercules plagiarized stories from a book that was yet to be written? think about what you're suggesting.
10 points if either of you can tell me who cut Samson's hair.
I believe it's Delilah.
Nope. It's a bit of a trick question really. Delilah orders a servant to do the cutting. Technically the servant cuts it. I was hoping to catch out new HS.
Bootyfunk, read the bible all you want. You have never said that you understand it. The only thing you understand and believe are the ways of man.
Hey you.. yeah YOU!! The d-u-m-b-f-u-c-k christian, who yelled out load and proud.. take a good hard look! It's now Nov the 23nd.
You're gonna eat your words about your 'world event'? What's the next "end of the world" event? You wanna call another loser date like with ALL the other times? How do you feel d-i-p-s-h-i-t?
Will your religious drivel be questioned by you on this date?
Ummm ..... what?
@ Topher "what?"
In my 51 years I've been threatened by "end of the world" prophesies at least 3 times counting the current one. There may be ones I'm missing but weren't we supposed to end the world in '86 as a result of the "harmonic convergence"? And what about Y2K? Now we have Dec 21st coming up. I think Answer is fed up with supersti tionists like yourself saying things that are patently UN true and then trying to force that upon the rest of us.
And jes us did say he'd return shortly after his death didn't he? know why he didn't return then? CUZ HE NEVER EXISTED!
Prove he did and while you're at it, prove Zeus DOESN'T exist- he's been asking for it for weeks now as ZeusDeusMaximus and I'm with him any more. Prove Zeus DOESN'T exist....
I bet there were more than 3. I don't remember "harmonic convergence," but I remember Y2K. However, the current one is not Christian, it's Mayan. Answer is attacking Christians. They have nothing to do with each other. In fact, according to the Bible, we know the world CAN'T end Dec. 21 (or whatever day it is supposed to end according to the Mayan calendar.)
I'm not trying to force anything upon you. Believe the Mayans if you want. I'm not too worried.
ALL end of the world predictions have one thing in common - they've all been wrong. it's their sick desire for the world to end that worries me...
Even the surviving Mayan descendants are pist off by all of this bs about their calendar, which they said was misinterpreted, (naturally) by all of the doomsday crowd...
Answer, what are you babbling about? Do you think you can write your thoughts (aka complaints ) clearly?
Not that I've done much reading up on the Mayan calendar, but doesn't the end of the world theory only come about because the calendar ends on that day? ... That there isn't any mention of the end of the world?
Bloody L, stop blaming your laziness on Topher. by the age of 51 you should have taken the time out of your dull, boring life to have read the Bible, to know what Jesus told us in Mark 13:30-32
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Praise The Lord,
"Heaven" is going to pass away?!
Yes, that's correct.
Damn, PTL, judgemental much?
GOOD OLD TIME RELIGION!? While I DO beleive in God, my savior, it does not mean that I am stupid! I always have questions, that remain unanswered! Religious books, all of them, are the works of humans, written, re-writien, embellished, changed, things left out, because of interpretation! NOW, a prime example is, the POPE, has rewritten, changed, the meanings of some of these stories, once again! And, of course, his book will make lots of $$$, but more importantly, HIS word is taken as the word of GOD, and therefore will impact many catholics, preists, etc..
God is two things, 1) he is the spirit of his existance and 2) he is the spoken word from him. The spirit is the explanation of the spoken word. The path to understanding is in the reading and the understanding of the word.
@Stuffle. You are correct, goD is two things: a (1)half-as.sed (2)myth. There fixed it for you.
ronvan, stop blaming mere mortal men for your failure of reading the bible on your own. It is everyone's duty to read the bible that Jesus wrote for us (all of us) then debate with preachers what you've learned. Have you done this? NO..
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Let us take for a minute a moment to ask ourselfs, what is the purpose of having a pope ?
Better yet, what is the purpose of having any of the religions and the leaders of them to even exist ?
Cmon Paul, don'cha read the bibble, gotta have a pope to emulate Peter who founded the one TRUE church. If you don't buy that you is going straight to the Bad Place...y'know according to your very own bibble and all...
Oh wait, is this the pot calling the kettle black? Is it picking and choosing what to believe? You christians REALLY confuse me, almost you are Hindu-like in your thousands of incarnations and descriptions...
It is in the emulation of a man where therein lies the deception and not understanding the truth of what it is that the word of god was saying. It is that this was taken as an oppertunity to establish another form of deception. It is no wonder that there is so much disbelief in this world, everythig that has been established is a lie, people can see it and yet there seems to be no other choice, embrace that that makes the most sence, even if it is not true.
I read the Bible every day ... and there's no pope in it.
Doesn't the non person jesus say Upon this rock is my church founded? Isn't that person Peter? Isn't the catholic church an outgrowth of that? See where I got my point?
...and another thing- why is it that people who only quote one source, the bibble, insist on describing what they know as TRUTH? Find me 3 peer-reviewed papers to back your assertions and then we can talk.
When you point at myth and call it TRUTH, you travel the path of evil because you will try to blind others, thus doing harm to your "gods" creation. Fools!
Yes, that is how the Catholics justify it. But if you read the entire passage Peter (Petros, which means small stone) had just confessed Jesus "is the Christ, the Son of the living God." So Jesus' response is talking about what Peter had just said. It is the truth of the Gospel. So basically, He just said, 'you are but a small stone, but what you have said is a boulder of truth on which I will build my church.' Peter even kind of clarifies this in his first epistle ... "As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."
there's actually a higher position than pope in the catholic church - choir boy stable master.
Paul Stufflebeam, so quick to condemn mortal men who brought Jesus' truth to the masses. Have you taken the time to read the Bible? Most likely the answer is no.
Why do catholics need everything "explained" to them, no matter what language?
You are only as smart as what you believe.
@ Stufflebeam " You are only as smart as what you believe"
Ok that explains a lot. YOU ARE ONLY AS SMART AS WHAT YOU KNOW, by definition. Idiot. I believe YOU are only as smart as what you believe, cuz you is a idiot!
Hypatia, WHY are you still a carnal heathen?
Save yourselves some money. See the following information from contemporary NT/history scholars versus those
who still suffer from the Three B Syndrome, Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Christianity e.g. B16:
Christmas, the embellished story of the birth of a simple, preacher man named Jesus.
As per most contemporary NT exegetes, his parents were Mary and Joseph although some say Jesus was a mamzer, the result of a pre-marital relationship between Mary and a Roman soldier.
Jesus was not born in Bethlehem at least the one we are familiar with (Professor Bruce Chilton in his Rabbi Jesus) and there were no angels, no slaughter of the innocents by Herod, no visiting wise men and no escape to Egypt.
Mark's gospel, the most historical of the four gospels, does not even mention the event.
And from Professor Gerd Ludemann in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, pp. 269-272, "The historical yield of the Lukan infancy narrative in respect to the birth of Jesus is virtually nil (ditto for Matt. 1: 18-25, Matt. 2. 1-23)"
See also, http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?ti-tle=007_Of_Davids_Lineage
Conclusion: the holyday of Christmas is historically a non-event. Ditto for the Feast of the Magi and the solemnity of Mary aka New Years day.
So after thorough analyses of the NT Christmas passages, what are a few of the conclusions of some of the top contemporary NT scholars?
Matt 1:18-25: From Professor Gerd Ludemann in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, pp. 123-124, "The fathering of Jesus from the Holy Spirit and his birth from the virgin Mary are unhistorical". Ludemann gives a very detailed analysis to support his conclusions. One part being the lack of attestations to these events and the late time strata of said story.
"Lüdemann [Jesus], (pp. 261-63) discounts Luke's account as a legend deriving from Jewish Hellenistic circles that were concerned to hold together the pro-creation of the Spirit, the authentic sonship of the Messiah and the v-irginal conception. "
Then there are these additional conclusions:
Professor Bruce Chilton
"In [Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography] (2000)], Chilton develops the idea of Jesus as a mamzer; someone whose irregular birth circu-mstances result in their exclusion from full participation in the life of the community. He argues for the natural pa-ternity of Joseph and finds no need for a miraculous conception. In his subsequent reconstruction of Jesus' life, Chilton suggests that this sustained personal experience of exclusion played a major role in Jesus' self-ident-ity, his concept of God and his spiritual quest.
John Dominic Crossan
"In [Historical Jesus] (p. 371) Crossan treats this cluster, like 007 Of Davids Lineage, as an example of the interplay of prophecy and history in the development of the Jesus traditions.
"In [Birth of Christianity] (pp. 26-29) Crossan uses Luke's account of Jesus' conception and birth to explore ethical issues concerning the public interpretation of the past. He notes the tendency of Christian scholars to disregard "pagan" birth legends while investing great effort in the defence of biblical birth narratives. He concludes:
"I do not accept the divine conception of either Jesus or Augustus as factual history, but I believe that God is incarnate in the Jewish peasant poverty of Jesus and not in the Roman imperial power of Augustus. "
"The following ancient parallels to Jesus' miraculous conception should be noted:
Birth of Moses (Exod 2:1-10)
Birth of Plato (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 3.45) [see Acts of Jesus, p. 507]
Birth of Alexander the Great (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, 2.1-3.5) [see Acts of Jesus, p. 502f]
Birth of Apollonius (Philostratus, Life of Apollonius, I.4) [see Acts of Jesus, p. 505]"
And some final words from Thomas Jefferson, not a contemporary NT scholar, but indeed a very learned man:
"And the day will come,
when the mystical generation of Jesus,
by the Supreme Being as His Father,
in the womb of a virgin,
will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva
in the brain of Jupiter.
– Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
Letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823.
Fact is, the contemporary chroniclers of culture, religion, military and civil life make no mention of this non existent person and they also do NOT note ANY of the so-called miraculous signs that should have been observed by all.
There are no Roman scribes in Pilates office that recorded a meeting with this non-existent person.
There are no writings by the Pharisees that they were thrown out of the temple by this non-existent person.
There is no archaeological evidence of the life of this non-existent person, only derivative artifacts that are non-contemporary.
It's a bill of goods sold by a self-interested group ( ie Mary, the Apostles, M Magdalene, Josephus, and the worst of all, Paul/Saul the sociopathic murderer) to further their own particular agenda. Just like Abraham and Moses, etc et al.
Can't we get out of the dark ages finally? Every time we look at a place where god is supposed to be, god's not there. Not in the water, the clouds, space, underground, etc etc...please. It's just embarrassing....killing each other over whether Bilbo ran out of Bag End with a red hanky or a green one...
Reality, when are you going to figure out that your contemporary NT/history scholars are just as carnally minded and doomed as you.
Bloody L, are you an idiot by nuRture or nature? Why would today's Pharisees tell you the truth?
From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.
"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.
“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.
“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "
“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.
I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."
See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .
Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.
Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.
There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus
See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.
"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.
Then there are these scriptural references:
Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )
Added suggested readings:
o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
– "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
Additional references are available upon request.
I cant believe that so many people get so worked up off of an obvious book of fables like the bible. There is no evidence that any of that junk is true so why believe in garbage like that? Just because it makes you feel good? Not a good enough reason.
As if you took the time to read Jesus' truth.
Are you a new HeavenSent handle?
Honey Badger Dont Care, I can't believe that fools such as yourself post comments they know nothing about!
Evil begets evil, there is and never will be any truth that comes from the churches that men have made. It is that they are a bad seed, and from a bad seed no good fruit can be made. Lies about a lie are nothing more than more lies.
Maybe, just maybe this Catholic actually read the Bible.
It is not in the reading of the word but it is in the understanding. Every one of us is a " house ". All houses are built on a foundation. Of those things that you choose to lay as a foundation are those things that your house are built on. So it is as we are born that we are introduced to the things that influence what materials we decide to make our foundation out of. In other words, those things that we choose to believe are true, we embrace and decide to follow. We follow those things and those people that are of like mind. So, when you pray it is to the things that you have decided to follow and the god associated to that doctrine. If what you have decided to embrace, as truth to you, and it turns out to be a lie, an origine of a doctrine of this world, then the god you pray to is " SATAN ".
Paul, there's no god, it's superst ition. And therefore, there is no sat an, it's supersti tion too. Ethical behavior, just like unethical behavior, DOESN'T have supernatural roots and it shouldn't be taught to children that it does- that's child abuse and leads to years, or a lifetime, of psychological disorders.
Folks need to work on their psychology so they can figure out what they're really afraid of...I bet most of the time it's a learned-fear from being brainwashed since birth by religion-purveyors-abusers...
Satan doen't exist; evil does, but Satan doesn't.
Therfore, you hypothesis is moot.
Ok, let us examine the existance of humans without the effects of either God or Satan. What we have is the ability to make reasonable choice according to our ability to percieve the environment around us. Based on those lessons we move forward in a reasonable manner that provides us with a sequential progression toward a life that is based on previously learned lessons. If this is what should happen then our lives would progressively get better as time went on. What do we have today and how is it better for it ?
"Ok, let us examine the existance of humans without the effects of either God or Satan. What we have is the ability to make reasonable choice according to our ability to percieve the environment around us. Based on those lessons we move forward in a reasonable manner that provides us with a sequential progression toward a life that is based on previously learned lessons. If this is what should happen then our lives would progressively get better as time went on. What do we have today and how is it better for it ?"
We can't tell you the answer because we've been influenced by ridiculous god/satan superst ition for thousands of years. Progressive countries that don't rely on superst ition to fashion their legal codes have the highest standards of living in the world, specifically Scandinavian countries. However, leaving that aside I'll go to my regular point that teaching superst ition as fact harms children and our society as a whole. Prove it doesn't!
Bloody L, read Romans 8 to figure out you are doomed if you don't repent and start believing in God. How do you do that. Read the bible.
Mrs. Pepperpot, Satan exists. He rules this world. He's not physically here, but, his spirit indeed is. You're living proof for being so blinded by his lies.
I see how you are, Praise the Lord. Anyone who does not agree with you is automatically Satan's adherent? You do nothing to further your cause, which is to be as vengeful and nasty as the OT God was, before the kinder, gentler NT "new covenant" God is. You suffer from the sin of pride, yourself, you blashemous hypocrite.
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