By Dan Merica, CNN
(CNN)–The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has fought against same-sex marriage throughout the United States, launched a website on Thursday that preaches understanding and compassion for the gay and lesbian community.
The website “Love One Another: A Discussion on Same-Sex Attraction” www.mormonsandgays.org, outlines the church's position on “same-sex attraction” and provides readers with a host of videos from “church members who are attracted to people of the same sex, and conversations with the loved ones of gay spouses, children, or grandchildren who are dealing with the effects of same-sex attraction in their own lives.”
The website comes at a time that some same-sex marriage activists believe the LDS Church is toning down its opposition to same sex marriage.
Though the church’s doctrine, that sex should be reserved only for a married man and woman, has not changed the church says, many outside the church say the church is subtly but unmistakably growing friendlier toward the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community, including voicing support for some gay rights.
Some pointed to the less public role in same-sex marriage ballot initiatives in 2012, a marked departure from earlier ballot initiatives fights – like Proposition 8 in California – where the church vocally supported the move to get same-sex marriage banned.
Gay rights activists see Mormons softening attitudes toward their community
“What we do know is that the doctrine of the Church—that sexual activity should only occur between a man and a woman who are married—has not changed and is not changing," Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Church’s Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said in a news release from the church about the new site.
"But what is changing and what needs to change is to help our own members and families understand how to deal with same-gender attraction,” he said.
The new website echos Oaks that this is not a doctrinal change but does recognize that people who are gay can be practicing members of the church.
“Reconciling same-sex attraction with a religious life can present an especially trying dilemma,” reads the website. “Anyone who lives in both worlds can attest to its difficulty. But with faith, love and perspective it can be done. Every human being, Latter-day Saints affirm, has worth and dignity as a child of God.”
Violation of the church's teaching on sexual relationships can lead to excommunication. Since gay people cannot be married in the church, any sex for them would be premarital and, therefore, sinful. Under these beliefs, a member of the LGBT community could be a practicing Mormon, as long as they are celibate.
LDS Church policy also notes if gay members, "are worthy and qualified in every other way, they may also hold temple recommends and receive temple ordinances," allowing them to participate in temple ceremonies.
“The distinction between feelings or inclinations on the one hand, and behavior on the other hand, is very clear,” the church’s website says. “It’s no sin to have inclinations that if yielded to would produce behavior that would be a transgression. The sin is in yielding to temptation. Temptation is not unique. Even the Savior was tempted.”
The site goes on to say, "From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God’s law is not ours to change."
In one video on the site a man identified as Kelly, begins to tear up when he talks about his family and why it was important for him not to leave the church.
“Family is very important to me. That was one of the things that helped get me to come back to the Church,” Kelley, whose last name was never given, said. “I couldn’t imagine living an eternity without my mom and dad. And so I knew I needed to change and do something different. Because even though I felt happy and felt content at the time, there was a huge hole that I was afraid of losing my family.”
Mormons believe that family relationships survive after death, as long as individuals live in accordance with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The practice – called sealing – “refers to the joining together of a man and a woman and their children for eternity,” according to the church.
– CNN’s Jessica Ravitz contributed to this report.
The Mormon Church says you must pretend to be something you are not. You can be gay, but please hate yourself. Tell other people you are diseased. Avoid a fulfilling life and love.
Going on 37 years celibate! Woohoo!
Think of poor Gandhi and how young he was when he got married. I don't think you have a record yet.
Good for you. who are we to try to define your happiness. we're just glad you are not procreating.
"Going on 37 years celibate! Woohoo!"
This person is not someone who understands what real loving relationships are about. The belief that sex is not important is a dangerous and intimacy-eroding myth. Sex provides an important time-out from the pressures of our daily lives and allows us to experience a quality level of closeness, vulnerability and sharing with our partners. If your sex life is unfulfilled, it becomes a gigantic issue. People like Jeff are dangerous for our society and don't understand the fundamental of human intimacy of gays or lesbians.
Someone had a revelation, the problem is the only time the mormon church has a revelation is when its politically correct.
The Mormon Church has never embraced lgbt. This is a political move, must like when they were the front money to defen prop.8. I don't and won't trust what they say. Romney lost, this is their only move.
What a crock.
everyone love everyone
Compromise promise? At least the ones worth of birth.
THe LDS is "softening" their attacks because the recognize that there are A LOT of gay LDSers! They do NOT want to see the "flight" from their "faith", as no doubt the Catholic church has seen-and the loss of REVENUE that goes with "followers" leaving the church!
I think CNN should fire whoever wrote this article. It uses too much passive voice, confusing dashes, and unnecessary prepositional phrases. Anyone with a basic English degree could've written this article better. Also there's no authority or source named for "many outside the church." Attributing people to mere speculation like that is unprofessional.
Eh, give 'em 10 years and suddenly god will change his mind and tell whoever's prophet by then that gays are groovy. That's the great thing about Mormonism, it's so doctrine-ally flexible that god will eventually get with the times. Ah Mormons, lol, bless 'em! Nice people, just a little loopy in places.
Mormons are not Christians and are not even close to being Christians
If I were Mormon, I would consider that a compliment.
If I am not accepted in a social group, I leave.
If somebody thinks that I'm not "worthy" to be in his presence or in his place of worship, I laugh.
So ia being born gay a birth defect?
For many in americult being born is a major inconvenience. Science has a fix for that.
no such thing as being born gay. Full Stop.
"So ia being born gay a birth defect?"
All major medical professional organizations concur that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be changed, from gay to straight or otherwise. The American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and European Psychological, Psychiatric, and Medical Associations all agree with this, as does the World Health Organization and the medical organizations of Japan, China, and most recently, Thailand. Furthermore, attempts to change one's sexual orientation can be psychologically damaging, and cause great inner turmoil and depression, especially for Christian gays and lesbians.
The scientific evidence of the innateness of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgenderism is overwhelming, and more peer-reviewed studies which bolster this fact are being added all the time. Science has long regarded sexual orientation – and that's all sexual orientations, including heterosexuality – as a phenotype. Simply put, a phenotype is an observable set of properties that varies among individuals and is deeply rooted in biology. For the scientific community, the role of genetics in sexuality is about as "disputable" as the role of evolution in biology.
On the second point, that there is no conclusion that there is a "gay gene," they are right. No so-called gay gene has been found, and it's highly unlikely that one ever will. This is where conservative Christians and Muslims quickly say "See, I told you so! There's no gay gene, so being gay is a choice!"
Many of these reparative "therapists" are basing this concept on a random Bible verse or two. When you hold those up against the mountain of scientific research that has been conducted, peer-reviewed, and then peer-reviewed again, it absolutely holds no water. A person's sexuality – whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual – is a very deep biological piece of who that person is as an individual.
The fact that a so-called "gay gene" has not been discovered does not mean that homosexuality is not genetic in its causation. This is understandably something that can seem a bit strange to those who have not been educated in fields of science and advanced biology, and it is also why people who are not scientists ought not try to explain the processes in simple black-and-white terms. There is no gay gene, but there is also no "height gene" or "skin tone gene" or "left-handed gene." These, like sexuality, have a heritable aspect, but no one dominant gene is responsible for them.
Many genes, working in sync, contribute to the phenotype and therefore do have a role in sexual orientation. In many animal model systems, for example, the precise genes involved in sexual partner selection have been identified, and their neuro-biochemical pathways have been worked out in great detail. A great number of these mechanisms have been preserved evolutionarily in humans, just as they are for every other behavioral trait we know (including heterosexuality).
There are many biologic traits which are not specifically genetic but are biologic nonetheless. These traits are rooted in hormonal influences, contributed especially during the early stages of fetal development. This too is indisputable and based on extensive peer-reviewed research the world over. Such prenatal hormonal influences are not genetic per se, but are inborn, natural, and biologic nevertheless.
Erik, if society want's that "data" they will find it. You get what you pay for especially with all the gubmint moneys involved.
Some of the comments above simply reinforce, by violating it, the good advice given by the late Krister Stendhal, Lutheran minister and former dean of the Harvard Divinity School. He said that individuals seeking a correct understanding of any religion should go to those who can speak officially or accurately about the religion, not its critics.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supported efforts to preserve the special nature of traditional marriage in both Hawaii and California. It has, since that time, not acted officially to preserve traditional marriage elsewhere, although its official position is that God has ordained marriage to be a union between a man and a woman. Given freedom of religion it is hoped that people everywhere will honor the Church's right to teach and practice what it wishes to do.
Harvard "sealed" the Big O's grades with a seal he could trust. Likewise, you should trust Harvard, unless your name is Broadwell.
Phillip C. Smith – the mormon church worked overtime to restrict equality for other americans... and they've seen fit to interject their ideals into political discourse...
they should – as a result – lose their tax-exempt status.
and don't count on the r i d i c u l e dying down – they earned every ounce.
cha cha cha
It hasn't acted in other states because it got in HUGE trouble over Prop 8 in California. That coupled with NOM not being able to raise enough money this time lead to the epic fail of trying to "preserve traditional marriage". This is just a slap in the fact to the LGBT community...separate but not equal.
"He said that individuals seeking a correct understanding of any religion should go to those who can speak officially or accurately about the religion, not its critics."
People should do both. What you're suggesting is like saying if you want to learn about communism ask Mao and Lenin and don't bother talking to anyone else.
My parents have been born to the LDS church in South Korea and so have I. I do not understand why many think of our religion as a 'cult'. You must understand that we are equal. We are just like you or anyone. Christian, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, Atheist, I have best friends from all religions. We do not doubt our friendship on what our own beliefs are. We are equal. Please understand that we mean nothing but to spread our message. Understand this. Whenever in doubt turn to whatever religion you are. If Christian or Mormon, turn to your God. If Muslim, Allah. Remember. We have better things to do then calling my church fake, falese, and full of nonsense. It hurts me to hear this. I am sure neither you would want to either.
With Loves Content
A teenage Young Women of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Many consider the LDS a cult becuase it is a recent religion whose early history is well docu/mented.
Before using them to translate the golden plates, Joseph Smith used his magic seer stones in an earlier treasure hunting scam for which he was arrested, tried and found guilty.
Many of the LDS rituals, like the garments, secret handshakes, secret new names and "special sealings" are suspi.ciously similar to Masonic rituals – and we know that Joseph Smith was a Mason.
Brigham Young spouted some of the most hateful, racist rhetoric I've ever seen in the Journal of Discourses.
The "divine revelations" that come the Prophets seem very conveniently timed – for example, Willford Woodruff's proclamation that "my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriages forbidden by the law of the land." only came after Utah's application for statehood had been denied a half dozen times becuase they practiced "the twin relics of barbarism", slavery and polygamy.
Spencer Kimball's little chat with Elohim that resulted in the repeal of the ban on dark skinned people in the clergy came in the exact same year that the LDS opened their first temple in a country that was not predominantly white.
It can be hard to get unpaid clergy to man your Temple when the majority of a nation's population is automatically excluded due to their melanin count.
The fact that LDS adherents are required to attend an annual accounting meeting to prove to their Bishop that they're paying up a full 10% ti/the makes one question the true motives of the church.
When statements like : "if a dest.itute family is faced with the decision of paying their ti.thing or eating, they should pay their t.ithing." (Lynn Robbins, General Conference, April 2005). are made, big old red cult flags go up in the minds of most people.
Understanding: here are some ugly truths for you posed in an almost equally ugly fashion – enjoy:
mormonism – like all forms of xianity – is a lie. mormonism in particular is based on a series of dinstinctly different ridiculous lies than most idiot xian organizations.
joseph smith was not a prophet... he was – in fact.. a huxter.. a flim-flam man.... a con-artist. the entire book of mormon and pearl of great price are fabrications which you and many others fell for. joseph smiths grasp on egyptian hieroglyphics was laughable (reference the kinderhook plates).
the cult of jebus x of latter day retards should lose their tax-exempt status for attempting to influence political discourse – and they need to learn about const itutional equality.
tolerance of religious idiocy and ignorance and and will end....
enough is enough
the AnViL, we gt it, you hate your Creator. Why don't you cool off, run along, and go for a swim?
"Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea."
lol?? you still aren't funny or witty.
Dear the AnViL,
To get things straight. Mormonism is not a lie. You may not belive it. There is a reason why the 1rst amendment says freedom of religion. Believe it. America has a whole bunch of religious people. But what do you do? Target us. Why I ask? I do not care.
By the way have YOU ever gone to a LDS sacrament? Have YOU ever met a LDS member? Have YOU even thought why there are thousands of Mormons all over the world? Have YOU ever thought how over 3000 young men and women apply for a mission call. Nope. You do not know.no.no.no.no. Learn your facts.
Also your idiotness amuses me. I hope you get a life.
-With all due respects
From the West of California
Thanks for the comedy gold!
to get things straight – you should have caught on to the con when you found out about how martin harris lost 116 pages of the book of mormon and joseph smith couldn't re-translate them because he made it all up.
there were no golden plates, dummy.
you fell for the con.
joseph smith was already well into his conman career before he cooked up the book of mormon.
he did not have the ability to translate anything – with or without his magical urim and thummim. again – reference the Kinderhook Plates. have a good time with that.
he was a fraud. a con artist. a charlatan, a swindler... a quack.
the entire book of mormon was a bad hack obviously heavily inspired by the old testament, and plagiarized from the new testament... written in ye olde english – because joseph knew it sounded holier that way.
joseph smith was a liar – he was never a prophet... and the book of mormon isn't true.
it may seem that way to the uneducated and ignorant... but it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.. and neither does the real history of the cult of jebus chripes of ladder day saints.
i want to bear my testimony that anyone who falls for mormonism is as dumb as any scientologist.
cha cha chaaaaaaaaaaaaa
It's a cult and it is based on the Free Masons. It teaches that the Book of Mormon is before the Bible and that the Bible only serves to back up the Book of Mormon. I am married to an ex Mormon (because she is gay) and I know a lot about the church from the inside.
The Anvil is an easy target. Why aren't any of you addressing Doc? Most likely answer: because you are ill-equipped. So much for honest discussion.
Religion kills more people than anything else.
I'm pretty sure science kills more
There's nothing more deadly than modern medicine and sanitation.
If you fear science so much, you're welcome to join the Amish or some other cult of luddites.
No as a matter of fact that's not true. People who misuse and abuse the precepts of faith have killed many in faiths name. The church is made up of sinners. Its a house of healing, not a museum of holy people. Why do secularists think we are all saints? I strive to follow the laws of God, that doesn't make me incapable of sinning. That also doesn't mean I'm not capable of objectively judging when someone else behavior is sinful. St Paul extols us to do just this. We are called to help each other become saints, which requires some judgement of behavior but what we are not called to do is condemn. Very distinct difference b/w objectively judging behavior as sinful and condemning someone.
Kirry asks " Why do secularists think we are all saints?
they don't. theists believe they are saintly – and work overtime to impinge their version of morality onto others.
they strive to secularize their skewed, bronze-aged, ignorant theological ideals... and they're never short on energy to rebuke those who they feel violate their religious proscriptions.
I agree that religion is full of falsehoods, but you ignore the millions of people killed by atheists like Stalin. Irreligious people have as much or more blood on their hands as religious people, per capita.
Yacon, we ignore those deaths because, for the thousandth time, he killed with the goal of totalitarianism, not atheism. He may have been an atheist. He may also have been a member of the Howdy Doody club. That doesn't man he killed in the name of atheism or Howdy Doody.
Well...that doesn't take away the fact they are atheist and they were murderers.
Or the fact they enjoyed cupcakes and were murderers. Why not condemn lovers of cupcakes?
It has nothing to do with money, the church has always felt this to be the "correct" way of dealing with LBGT controversies INSIDE the church. It's ridiculous that they have gone so far as to make a website to "support" those with this "problem". Its ok to be gay, you just shouldn't be gay and we can help you try not to act gay. That way God will let you have privileges and be happy.
.....ridiculous. Hasn't changed since gay rights act and certainly won't change anytime soon. I don't think they realize that they're doing more damage to LGBT members than they really think. Imagine how a confused gay 13 year old would feel if they were told all of this...
In this day and age you'd have to be kept in a cage not to have access to legitimate information on what it's really like to be gay. That said, I can't rule out that some don't use actual cages on their kids.
At the zeitgeist moves ever more towards equality for gay relationships, so too will the Mormon "Prophet" eventually have a divine revelation allowing same se/x unions, though like their downplay of the racism central to the religion, the original discourse on what it means to be gay will stand.
In 1947, Prophet David O. McKay was quite clear about the Church's opinions of black people and the idea of interracial marriage.
"From the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith even until now, it is has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by any of the Church leaders, that the Neg.roes are not ent.itled to the full blessings of the Gospel.
"Furthermore your ideas, as we understand them, appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Neg.ro and White races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal-minded people from the ancient partiarchs till now. God's rule for Israel, His Chosen People, has been endogamous."
These days, , the discourse that constructs what blackness means is still very much intact today. Under the direction of President Spencer W. Kimball, the First Presidency and the Twelve removed the policy that denied black people the priesthood but did very little to disrupt the multiple discourses that had fostered the policy in the first place. Hence there are Church members today who continue to summon and teach at every level of Church education the racial discourse that black people are descendants of Cain, that they merited lesser earthly privilege because they were "fence-sitters" in the War in Heaven, and that, science and climatic factors aside, there is a link between skin color and righteousness.
Dark skinned people are "welcome" in the Church, so long as they accept their intrinsic, spiritual inferiority to the white man.
Now, they're making to same move with gay people. Hom/ose/xuals are welcome in the LDS family, so long as they accept that their natural state is inherently evil and agree never to act on any feelings they have.
If they do, they will be shunned and shamed by their families and peers.
So as I understand it, their god still thinks blacks are icky, but we're pretending they are OK. And their god still thinks gays are icky, but we're also pretending they are OK.
I wonder, are Native Americans still Jewish?
A feathered war bonnet is just a fancy yarmulke.
This puts a whole new meaning to the practice of scalping then, right?
Primewonk: that is correct – they actively teach that black people were fence sitters in the pre-existence... and that their skin color is the "mark of cain".
it's not the most unreasonable thing they believe – but it's fairly repugnant.
Wow...I was raised and taught, both at home and at my church, to love others as God's children and to be respectful of others opinions and beliefs. Even if I don't share your opinion or agree with your stance on issues, you are still someone to be valued and respected.
I have read all of the comments posted above and can see only three that were respectful. one was from the Mormon girl in Korea and the other two from Phillip C. Smith and Brian. All of the other responses show what is wrong in this world. People say, "respect me. give me what I deserve and have a right to." Then these same people go and deny others the very things they are demanding for themselves.
I have raised my children to realize that if you want good friends, then be a good friend. If you want respect, then be respectful. if you want to be understood, then be understanding. Yes, it takes work and practice, but nothing worth anything is easy! From the comments above, it seems like most of you should be taught or reminded of what it means to be community-minded and not so hateful to those who don't think or believe as you do.
As a side note, I live in an area where there are quite a few Mormons around (not Utah) and they are all consistently friendly, helpful, caring, and involved....even with those not in their Church....and no, they aren't being kind to try to convert. They are taught at home and in their church to love others as God's children.
officially off the soapbox now... :)
Very Disheartening Reading:
tolerance of religious idiocy has to end.
you may have been taught to behave nicely and that's sweet... but it doesn't negate the fact that many many people who believe in imaginary men in the sky seek to secularize their theological ideals.
why should anyone be polite or nice to those who seek to nullify the equality of any group of americans?
being kind and peaceful and understanding and tolerant is absolutely absurd in the face of politicians like todd akin, paul broun and marco rubio who scoff at science and dismiss it – while serving on committees that effect our trade, commerce, transportation, science, and space spending – and it's sickening that we allow any religious organization – like the mormons to work overtime in impinging their theistic morality onto the general public while inserting themselves into political discourse.
they should lose their tax-exempt status immediately.
so spare us your high-horse vomit and get real.
@VDR: being a nice person doesn't require religion. And you must have stopped reading the Korean's responses *before* she called someone an idiot instead of turning the other cheek, so you also see that religion doesn't necessarily imply nicety. We're all, with or without religion, variously nice or not.
Religion deserves derision and scorn. Religion often presents itself as a Trojan horse with an outer appearance of love and tolerance that in reality only ever results in hate, intolerance and divisiveness. It is a complex excuse to practice bigotry.
As with any religion's head honcho, "God in heaven" is the celestial Kim Jong-il of North Korea, requiring strict devotion and worship at penalty of torture. That's not love, it's slavery, which some religious will tell you they gladly accept. I do not.
You have not the faintest idea what we believe or teach in our cheuch meetings.
Church meetings. Sorry for the typo.
Christ's laws are clear: Love one another. You ARE your brother's keeper. Treat others as you would be treated. Vengence (and judgement) are the Lord's. We are to treat everyone with as much love and compassion as we can muster, even when we must stand on principle and oppose their actions.
"christs laws" were written by men, so aren't they mans laws. And since it was just some men who wrote them, aren't they really just suggested laws to everyone else. Sure some are good ideas, but ultimately, not really laws.
Some more of your god's laws –
Murder gay folks.
Murder kids who talk back.
Murder women who aren't virgins on their wedding night.
Murder engaged virgins who are ràped if they don't scream loud enough.
Force unengaged virgins who are ràped to marry their rapists.
Where's the love, Sparky?
Sounds like a list of things many Christians would criticize traditional Muslim countries for, doesn't it?
"Treat others as you would be treated." So, if you're into S&M, and would want to be "treated" that way by others, then you should just assume that others are into it as well, right?
Len – the Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same god. Yet they all try and kill each other, claiming theothers worship an evil god. It's like hating your cousins because you think their grandfather is evil. It's the same freaking grandfather!
The god gave the same cruel rules and laws to all 3 groups. Most of the these folks simply ignore god's commands. Fundiot Muslims simply follow their god's rules. I wonder which group this god will be more "well pleased" with? The folks who obey him, or the ones who thumb their noses at him.
At some level, all Muslims, Jews, and Christians believe that the other guy's "God" isn't real. Jews don't believe in a God that had a son, foretold of Jesus through their prophets, or visited Muhammad with another holy book. Muslims don't believe in a "God" that had a son either, or one that ended his giving of scripture before Muhammad. Christians don't believe in any "God" that doesn't include Jesus as a part of him, or one that thought that the New Testament needed a sequel. It's not really three different views of the same God, it's deeper than that. It's like the fundamental difference between voodoo zombies and plague zombies. They're three different "Gods", the same in name only.
That is easy to answer as God is pleased with those who worship with pure heart. There exists a consistent behavior with those conduct their lives in a manner that glorifies God. True there is only one God and God is revealed in many ways over time with the most recent being through the Holy Spirit.
The difference is not hard to spot. Take the leading Priests of Jesus day. This example was not put into the Bible by accident as was anything else. These Priests were the top of the faithful called the Sanhedrin and they demanded an innocent man Jesus crucified while a murderer Barnabas set free. They and their followers marched by a tortured man (Jesus) and hurled insults at him and mocked him. Another criminal hanging next to Jesus only said “we deserve this you are innocent remember me”. Jesus said to him today you will be with me in Paradise while saying nothing to the others.
In case you did not notice the one who gets to Paradise is the one who does not mock, torture and kill innocence. That person can be a murderer hanging for his or her crimes which does not preclude entrance. What it takes is a simple recognition of the love of God as modeled by Christ, acknowledgment of wrong living (sin) and a simple plea “remember me”.
God keeps it simple so there can be no excuse at judgment day.
Fred, sorry, but your god is the biggest torturer in the history of the universe.
That comment makes no sense whatsoever if you are speaking about God. I suspect you believe that you know God better than the most faithful and knowledgeable believers in the world. Now, just stop for one moment and ask your self do you know God better than say the Pope, Billy Graham, Mother Teresa and the like? Can you see the things of God, commune with God, pray with God and worship God with all your heart in true love?
Consider just how distant you are from the God believers know and ask yourself how logical your comment is and where authority of character and attributes of God would most likely be found closest to the truth assuming their God exists. This is their God should you not value their knowledge?
The biggest torturer of all time is not the object of their worship rather the object of your bias, slander and false image of a god you have created that reflects what Satan would see not what believers see. Be warned that you need to take a serious hard look at the presence that has taken over your heart.
Fred: god exists ONLY between the ears of the delusional people who "believe".
there is, in fact, precisely zero gods... and considering the only thing any person can do to "know" your imaginary man in the sky – is read all the associated literature.... yes – i do feel that i know your imaginary god just as well as "the Pope, Billy Graham, Mother Teresa".
you should be ashamed to be so stupid.
If I was to make the claim that I know your deity better than anyone in your faith and that your deity spoke to me every hour on the hour, how would you prove me wrong?
No, you have only educated yourself about what was written. You know what was written about God but you do not know God. I could read every written word ever written about riding a bike but if I never get on a bike I do not know how to ride a bike.
In the same way the Bible gives example after example of mans relationship and understanding of God with specific knowledge of how to walk with God. If you have never walked with God you do not know God.
Allow me to translate fred for everyone.
"Circular reasoning, confirmatory bias, I'm right because I believe I am."
In order to believe, you have to be a believer, but you can't be a believer until you believe.
Your life would bear the fruit of the Spirit of God (some call it the Holy Spirit) which is evident to all not just me. Blessings would follow you wherever you went and you would be a blessing to all those around you.
fred – no one has ever walked with gods – including you.
all there is – is what's written in very very old books written by ignorant men who also – never walked with any gods.
no one ever walked with any gods – because there are precisely zero gods.... you've been lied to.
you are delusional. get therapy and evolve, son.
Exactly, you couldn't.
“In order to believe, you have to be a believer, but you can't be a believer until you believe.”
=>let’s see is it chicken then egg or egg then chicken……….
How can you answer that question without God? You cannot answer that question with the unknown did it, or first cause or M theory simply because in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now, if God created the heavens and the earth then we exist for the purpose of God in which case God is the correct answer.
God creates the environment for belief which includes those moments the presence of God is revealed to you. Each time you have the choice to accept or reject. Sometimes it is as simple as being born into a Pastors home other times it is very strange or miraculous. Either way it is God the gives you that gift and you choose to accept or reject.
Correct order: In order to believe you must accept the revelation God presents to you and continue to seek God in that path shown to you.
“Exactly, you couldn't.”
=>Cute, of course I could not since you just anonymous words on a screen. In person it is not hard to tell. In the same way Jesus was very different from the culture around him.
LOL fred doesn't like replying to me anymore. How fun. I got the fundie to not bother.
“ no one has ever walked with gods – including you.”
=>people walk with their manmade gods all the time. When I look at the Gold Bull in New York I have little doubt what rules the lives of materialists.
“ written in very very old books written by ignorant men who also – never walked with any gods.”
=>these ignorant men laid down the truth about mans relationship with God or their manmade gods in a fashion that no one can doubt the difference between those that love God and those who do not know God. Our entire Western World View is based on the foundation set by these ignorant men. 6-11 billion people in all recorded history believed in this God as laid down by these ignorant men. Those who walked with God had massive impact on you and me. Consider Abraham, Moses and the biggest of Jesus who is the most influential figure in all known time. Ignorant men are the foundation of the modern world to this day? The Presidents of the U.S who all claimed to believe these ignorant men?
“you are delusional”
=>I doubt you confuse a physical walk with a Spiritual based walk and rightfully so. One who walks with God also sets his feet only on the ground directed by God. In short the Spirit and physical man are often not separate so some do “walk” with God. It is sad you have never encountered such a man.
fred said: ". It is sad you have never encountered such a man."
fred – i encounter the delusional enemies of reason every day.
what's sad is the abject ignorance people like yourself wallow in and propagate.
you can claim anything you please – but you've no evidence... absolutely none.
good luck with your faith. i only hope you do not use it in an attempt to restrict the equality and liberty of others who do not believe in the same imaginary man in the sky that you do – or the people who know there aren't any imaginary men in the sky at all.
Yes, dear I would happy to respond but you never sent me a post. But, I am sure others are pleased with your translation skills. You are very gifted and astute.
You continue to prove that Born Agains are the most dangerous because besides believing in the god/christ delusion your wuole life is consumed by the dogma. We need your example to show the young how dangerous an obsession can be. Thank You.
Where you cherry picked my post, then after I called you on it you suddenly became unaware of my posts.
You've done this pretty often.
A balance is always needed between men. A quick look at history will reveal there is no end to power lust unless another restrains or concurs. Iran is balanced by other believers and countries led by non believers. Be thankful there are those who will stand up in the name of God as necessary just as in America there was a stand against the Church of England and its repressive lock on the government. Be thankful that 56 out of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence who recognized the works of the Creator that were self evident set in motion to limit religion that goes astray.
Never since the tower of Babel has man gathered under one non believer. That day is coming so you best pray there are a few God fearing men left to stand up and say enough.
If we were married and you were a dysfunctional wife I could understand you bringing up past posts and throwing them in my face. But, I have moved on and there is a new post in my life. Get over it.
fed – i don't pray because there aren't any gods.
as for how things used to be... and how things are.. and how things could be... we can only hope that mankind sheds the yoke of ignorance that is inherent in all religion.. so that we can progress and evolve.
religion won't get us there... and neither will people like yourself.
I suspect if you were give me characteristics of the people you envision as having capacity to create a better world those people would look very much like Christ.
Intrested to know how far gone are you, has your whole life been consumed by your obsession? I have this vision of an old women climbing up the stairs to the cathedral on her bleeding knees while mumbling over her beads, could that be you, fred?
Not sure my Hobbit is as bad is you made it out but I am searching for my precious.
There are more people that need help every day and I barely make a dent. When I am not out earning enough to pay the mortgage I am out in the community. This is a break from the real world that is bloodying its knees trying to get up stairs that do not lead anywhere. And, they all have their beads that they hold on tight to because it’s all they have.
Count your blessings if you’re at the top of the staircase.
I suspect if you were give me characteristics of the people you envision as having capacity to create a better world those people would look very much like Christ."
fred – the people who can create a better world won't be from any religion.
in 2000 years – religion has done nothing but cause more division and suffering.
religion impoverishes and retards all of humanity.
you and those like you have absolutely no capacity to make the world a better place. all you've done is create more ignorance and strife.
the fact that religion has failed to bring peace and harmony to mankind is absolute, irrefutable proof and evidence of religions complete lack of divinity and absolute lack of ability to do anything but cause more war, and poverty. in fact – the only thing religiosity has ever done is propagate idiocy.
as for your alleged jebus... all the accounts of jebus were hearsay – and all the accounts of the accounts of jebus were hearsay. it's a story taken from other stories and myths...
so the characteristics of the supposed people who have the ability to create a better world most probably won't be any more like your imaginary jebus than they will be the alleged buddha or gandhi.
you should literally be ashamed to be this ignorant.
Well I am in good company unless all the presidents of the United States were lying about their belief in Christ.
As to religion being the problem Stalin, Mao and Poll Pot are good examples where we can say religion is not the cause. Man is the cause. You are not saying anything new as to the problem with man or religion. Jesus (who by all accounts did exist) was a thorn in the side of the religious of his day and did a much better job of pointing out the problem with religion.
Assuming you read the Bible you noted that man and his religion do not even follow the laws of their own religion yet alone the truth of God which is self evident. All your argument does is point out what we already know from the Bible about mans relationship with God (poor to none). Few even since Jesus actually follow Christ that claim to be Christian.
The Bible is the truth about returning souls to their intended purpose. You do not need to believe in the Bible to recognize it is an accurate picture of fallen man in a fallen world (that includes its religions and wars over religion which are clearly pointed out).
How cute. Copping out of posts that you were shown to be wrong, or where challenged directly you run away. Where I call you out on constant assertions with no demonstrable backing and you run. Yet it doesn't matter because you just like to forget about those things. That is a dishonest position, and merely gives more credence to me characterizing you as a dishonest, self-righteous, bigoted, scientifically illiterate religious zealot content to merely say things and not care about anything outside your little bubble of blind faith.
Why are you even here fred? Do you think you'll convert people with your dishonesty? Are you taking the Martin Luther path?
No, I cannot convert anyone based on reason. In your case it would require an act of God. The good news is that God is just loving enough (according to those who know God as revealed not the god you have made up) that you will be given many opportunities to see the truth.
I make no bones about the fact others are significantly more gifted than I am in most fields (including theology) and simply give thanks for what I do have. Thanks to those more gifted than I am in the sciences I do understand a little more why atheists can suffer from the no God delusion or no god needed delusion.
All said the best minds on this site have yet to come up with a better plan to deliver a soul back into harmony with the Creator which is what the Bible gives us. In the absence of God or soul I have not yet heard of one single better plan or purpose for mankind that does not in itself conflict with an agnostic or atheist belief. Even your plan is based on the theory of biological evolution as the source for purpose and meaning for existence yet it must refer back to itself for validity. In short, you are just as circular in your world view of no God as I am with God. My evidence just has a lot more ad populum support than yours does.
Oh, wait is that the straw man applauding?
Well gotta run I have a lot of stairs that need climbing.
"My evidence just has a lot more ad populum support than yours does."
So you're appealing to fallacy to support your fallacious evidence? Oh that's rich.
By the way, another irrelevant tangent started by cherry picking my post. How predictable of you.
"All said the best minds on this site have yet to come up with a better plan to deliver a soul back into harmony with the Creator which is what the Bible gives us."
Eternal reward and punishment for finite crimes are the pinacle of immorality, and encourages people to not care about their current lives and the lives of others, and merely obey out of fear of a dictator.
“Eternal reward and punishment for finite crimes are the pinacle of immorality,”
=>What? The Bible says each is accountable for that which they were given. We are not to judge who gets into heaven or who gets off scot free. We are also warned that just because of Gods endless love, grace and mercy we are not to go about doing as we please. There is a great deal of lat-itude that ranges from being blotted out (i.e. you never existed) to the endless fires of hell where the worm never ceases to churn. What we do know is that hell is reserved for Satan and his Demons. Now, you are most likely not the latter and fit somewhere closer to being blotted out…….isn’t blotted out very close to your afterlife plan anyway? Careful what you wish for.
“encourages people to not care about their current lives and the lives of others”
=>What world do you live in again? Christians are to serve and be of help and joy to the people around them
“merely obey out of fear of a dictator.”
=>ok, do you need me post facts as how few people if any fear God these days ……look in the mirror and did I really post that
I am so otta here ...hope that came through my app.
fred i believe everyone has the right to believe in whatever imaginary man in the sky they choose.. but they should do it in private.
i believe that when people disclose their beliefs which are counter to our current understanding of the sciences, they should be prohibited from serving in any capacity in any branch of our government which allows them the ability to effect legislation on anything... at all... ever.
all religious belief is delusional.
there are absolutely no gods.
religion = man
men invented all religions. deal with it.
all religions that ever existed on planet earth were conceived entirely in the minds of men.
they are all the product of delusional thinking and ignorance.
fred.... there are a lot of problems on planet earth, religion being only one. a really big one.
so stuff your strawman in your bible-hole and spare me the stalin, pol pot, mao, hitler, gengis phuquing kahn, ming the merciless trash , son.
fred – there probably was no actual jebus... you know this right? i'm pretty sure it's so r a d i c a l l y outside your very small brainwashed minds ability to grasp.... but there's pretty strong evidence to support that the entire account of jebus was all made up, champ.
every account of jebus is hearsay. every account of every account of jebus was also hearsay.
now... your presuppositions have no meaning. when you make statements like "the truth of God which is self evident." – the only thing that is self-evident is that you are trapped in the ugly clutches of delusional thinking.
you are beyond reason, and therefore the enemy of reason.
"All your argument does is point out what we already know from the Bible about mans relationship with God (poor to none)."
all i've done is repeatedly explain to you that there are no gods, and religion is a problem. a very very big problem.
"The Bible is the truth about returning souls to their intended purpose."
the bible is a collection of ancient books from an ancient culture that are filled with myth and fiction - and very little truth.
it is no more holy, or divinely inspired than the koran or any scribblings from any of the other ancient idiotic, ignorant, religious sputum.
also – there are no souls. it's called biophysics and thermodynamics... read about it in some books.
"You do not need to believe in the Bible to recognize it is an accurate picture of fallen man in a fallen world (that includes its religions and wars over religion which are clearly pointed out)."
incorrect – anyone who believes in the bible is dumb. the only thing i can see is a great big fat convoluted pig crammed full of contrad ictions, inaccuracies, inconsistencies, and flaws.
the tiny problem we have with religion right now – most particularly with the mormon church – is their extended efforts to nullify equality in a group of americans that they do not agree with based entirely on their delusional idiotic theological vomit.
fred – delusional people like yourself presently enjoy the freedom to believe in whatever imaginary men in the sky you choose... but you should never be allowed to vote, hold public office, purchase or own firearms or teach public school.
tolerance of religious idiocy has to end -and it will.
Gee what another surprise. Irrelevant tangent with fear tactics thrown in for good measure. More cherry picking as well. This is why I call you a dishonest, self-righteous moron fred.
Your assertions are quite correct, "hawaiiguest". fred is, in fact, self-righteous moron.
o the AnViL
“fred i believe everyone has the right to believe in whatever imaginary man in the sky they choose.. but they should do it in private.”
=>Ditto for non believers that falsely use evolution as a world view
“i believe that when people disclose their beliefs which are counter to our current understanding of the sciences, they should be prohibited from serving in any capacity in any branch of our government which allows them the ability to effect legislation on anything... at all... ever.”
=>yes, you want to do exactly as the church did over the years
“all religious belief is delusional.
there are absolutely no gods.”
=>keep that unfounded belief in private
fred you are a shining example of your religion and a brilliant warrior for your god!!
you have great faith and it shall be rewarded!!
fight the antichrist with all your might!!
never ever give up your faith in the LORD!!!
What?? Did Mitt Romney finally come out??
He wouldn't disclose his tax returns because the temple would have some question too, no doubt.
I heard lionlylamb down near 2800 S California Ave where he was doin' some street rappin'. He stuck out like a white lamb at a pig calling contest. His words changed after a smash an' grab and after he recovered and was released from the hospital, the spellbound spectators did it again. You see the results. C.T.E.
One should treat gays just like anyone else in the workplace or neighbour. But we as christians are salt and light, which preserves and repells darkness. We will not be liked by all sinners for our stand for Christ and righteousness. Yes we treat all people with respect and politeness as we would want to be treated. But the Church of Christ is not all inclusive, in that we encourage people to join to rolls and just live as they please. God has standards for His Church that reflect the reality that we are temples of the Holy Spirit, and are to conduct ourselves accordingly.........
2 Timothy 3:10-13......
........The Man of God and the Word of God.........
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Being born gay is no more a sin or immoral or wrong than being born left-handed or black.
Oh...Wait...It wasn't that many years ago that you religious nutters were claiming that being left-handed was a sign of the devil and being black was the mark of Cain.
This is simply one more thing, in a long lost of things, that your scientifically ignorant god got totally wrong.
Mormons have the same bias against the left-handed as was normal up until very recently, just like being gay.
It is the custom to extend the right hand in token of fellowship. The right hand is called the dexter, and the left, the sinister; dexter means right and sinister means left. Dexter, or right, means favorable or propitious. Sinister is associated with evil, rather than good, Sinister means perverse. We take the sacrament with the right hand. We sustain the authorities with the right hand. We make acknowledgment with the right hand raised. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.108)
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.