By Moni Basu, CNN
(CNN) – Mia Lillis knew that she was gay when she was 12. She felt lucky to attend a public high school in Austin, Texas, that was highly supportive and had a gay student alliance. Then she arrived at the University of Notre Dame.
She enrolled there because Notre Dame's reputation as a premier Catholic school appealed to her family. But from the very first day, Lillis was scared.
She searched for a gay and lesbian student organization. There was none. She sought out literature for gay students. Again, nothing.
"It gave me the impression that Notre Dame didn't care about queer students," said Lillis, 20. "It was pretty intimidating."
She went back in the closet. She even considered transferring. "I would say a lot of gay students think that way," she said.
The Supreme Court will hear the Prop 8 and "Defense of Marriage Act" cases. It's going to be interesting.
Equal Protection under the law. Will the court have the courage to rule broadly in defense of the Constitution, or will they cop out to a narrow ruling.
Either way, religion is going to lose. It's only a question of how much.
Because no matter how much they claim America is a Christian nation, the truth is that the tendancies of religion are hostile to the liberties the Founding Fathers encoded into the defining documents of the land.
The kooks on the court wear black dresses, too. I wouldn't be braggin' if I was a socialist. Copycats.
Call the first 2 witnesses: Jeanine Garofolo and Britney Spears !
Catholic bishops fight Obama's healthcare because of mandated contraception coverage,
but Notre Dame announces "gay services"?
What would Adam and Eve say ?
Eve would probably say "Stop that Abel, you shouldn't be doing that with your mother, go find another girl" Abel, "But Mom!"
hind, ashamed to call them their children.
That's an easy one. Adam said he wanted to go sky diving. Eve said she didn't think the kids were college material, so he'd have to wait. Only 400,000 YEARS! S E X was not a core course, either, til now.
Shame on these diikes for wanting to belong to a group that hates them. Do they have stockholm syndrome or are they simply just carpet eating fvcktards?
Exactly. Dump the church. They need to join "Recovering Catholics" and move on with life.
What are you, about 12?
America was not built for ignorant bigots.
You're right – it wasn't. He He.
But I thought it was a Christian nation?
ignorant filthy denier of dolphins ism absolute Marino ism goon spit in the face of 1972 perfect season absurd.
Denier of thin Bears supremacy, apple ism, giggle.
Hey T, have you heard the good news?
Hey, dude! No. What good news?
Only for the new members of this blog:
o "Abrahamics" (e.g. Catholics) believe that their god created all of us and of course that includes the g-ay members of the human race. Also, those who have studied ho-mo-se-xuality have determined that there is no choice involved therefore ga-ys are ga-y because god made them that way.
1. The Royal College of Psy-chiatrists stated in 2007:
“ Despite almost a century of psy-choanalytic and psy-chological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heteros-exual or hom-ose-xual orientation. It would appear that s-exual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of ge-netic factors and the early ut-erine environment. Se-xual orientation is therefore not a choice. "
2. "Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, "The fe-tal brain develops during the intraut-erine period in the male direction through a direct action of tes-tosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hor-mone surge. In this way, our gender identi-ty (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and s-exual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender ident–ity or s-exual orientation."[8
3. See also the Philadelphia Inquirer review “Gay Gene, Deconstructed”, 12/12/2011. Said review addresses the following “How do genes associated with ho-mose-xuality avoid being weeded out by Darwinian evolution?”
Of course, those gays who belong to Abrahamic religions supposedly abide by the rules of no adu-ltery or for-nication allowed.
And because of basic biology differences said monogamous ventures should always be called same-se-x unions not same-se-x marriages.
From below, on top, backwards, forwards, from this side of the Moon and from the other side too, ga-y s-exual activity is still mutual mas-turbation caused by one or more complex s-exual differences. Some differences are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O'Donnell.
Yes, heteros-exuals practice many of the same "moves" but there is never a doubt who is the female and who is the male.
As noted, there are basic biological differences in gay unions vs. heterose-xual marriage. Government benefits are the same in both but making the distinction is important for census data and for social responses with respect to potential issues with disease, divorce and family interactions.
For example at http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d61a.pdf , there is a check box for "unmarried partner" under Person #2.
""Some differences are visually obvious in for example the complex maleness of DeGeneres, Billy Jean King and Rosie O’Donnell."
I think they would disagree with your assessment of them; they are female; I think your assesment of their looks is wholly absurd.
"As noted, there are basic biological differences in gay unions vs. heterose-xual marriage. Government benefits are the same in both but making the distinction is important for census data and for social responses with respect to potential issues with disease, divorce and family interactions."
Nope. Marriage is marriage. Gays are fighting for civil rights equality, and you are still marginalizing them.
All marriages are unions.
Census forms have been changed every single time to reflect societal changes.
nothing is new, but back to basics, hindu catholic ism is nothing but hinduism, corruption of truth absolute by hindu magi's, filthy crooks of Egypt and Persia, as it is illustrated from word Catha, compounded, blend of hinduism, pagan ism and hindu corrupted teachings of Israelite to justify hindu Mithra ism, atheist savior ism, with a new label Christianity, having no meanings what so ever, as in hindu fabrication Jesus, a figure created in shadow of son of blessed Mary to hind, fool humanity.
hindu gay ism, hind love ism is a holy tradition of hindu pagan Zoroaster ism, religion of hindu Magi's, criminal crooks, also known as Jogi's, follower of vata, stone called Paris, they claim god came out of and created heaven and earth. Khuda, to be in their original language Avesta, also known as middle Persian. Way of hindu Magi's , criminal crooks to keep hinduism, racism of hindu criminals alive.
nothing is new, sos garbage ism, punk rock ism of Thin Allah, denier of spitting on face, goon
hinduism, absurdity of a hindu, ignorant.
Just like to point out to Bill the hypocrisy of the some of the RCC's practices!
On another point, as a gypsy and warlock and having a painful family history in regards to Salem burnings, I found your previous comment quite insensitive even though true. LOL.
Stupid reply button, or am I losing it, Topher help me.
I do have to ask this though: if this young lady was so concerned about what possible services might be there for her, why oh why didn't she check this stuff out before she went to school there?
Hint: Click on the "Full Story" link. She never engaged in any activity to convince ND to do this, she was just happy they did.
I understand she wasn't running around protesting and raising a ruckus. I'm just wondering why she didn't look into what types of LGBT services/clubs/whatever ND offered before she decided to go to school there. I just know that if something is important to me, I'm going to take a brief minute to look and see how a school supports that.
Well, me personally, I would look more into the education I'm going to receive over optional student services. As far as this girl, we could speculate all day. But what I'm more curious about is exactly what "services" they will be offering. I actually bothered to read this so called pastoral plan, and it is quite va gue as to what is going to be offered.
Way to propagate hindu gay ism, filthy hind love ism, living proof of hindu Lucifer ism, self center ism to make hindu's ignorant's cow mam's hindu filthy dung holy.
"But what I'm more curious about is exactly what "services" they will be offering."
Female massage, of course.
Hmmm... weird.... posts got all tangled up. Anyone else having a problem?
A comment by the poster "atheists get out" was deleted. all of the post below the responses to Topher's post were originally responses to AGO's deleted post.
Thought it might have been something along those lines. I tried to post a response to AGO and it said I posted, but it never showed up, my timing must have been pretty spectacular.
Did posting that turn you on, New Days?
Think of it like as a reverse Limbaugh :)
These guys are HOT! I'm going to have to start watching DOOL again.
New Days: lol.
crooks of thin Allah, denier of women s rights to have s.ex
What I will never understand is why somone who is gay would worship a god that wants them kiIIed.
There is a huge seperation from reality here. Its like woman who is a republican. Doesn't make sense.
not to mention people desiring eternity with a being from whom they feel they need to be saved
nail on the head, Honey. people that want to be in a club that hates them - bizzaro!
It's a given there isn't a whole lot of thinking going on within the ranks of the religious.
I grew up gay and Christian (agnostic now) and I can answer that easily (speaking only for myself of course). For the most part I dont want to die, or die alone. Death scares me..I'd rather think there is more. But for me, yes it was a big conflict of interest and very emotionaly painful. I still want there to be a God..I just want God to be a God who loves me no matter what.
I believe we are beginning to see the tipping of change in the overall moral orientation of our country. These kinds of changes are slow to come, taking several generations to be fully realized, and starting out very small in a tiny subset of society and growing slowly until we reach a tipping point.
A generation from now equality will no longer be withheld based on orientation. Two generations from now, society will be embarrassed that it ever was.
Don't hold your breath. In an AP poll from October, 51% of white Americans admitted to holding explicit anti-black views. I wouldn't expect that these idiots views on orientation will change any faster than their views on race.
Here's a thought....instead of having services for the LGBT students, why not just have services that aren't bigoted...oh, wait....never mind.
Because this way, we can make them feel more comfortable so they won't realize were recording who shows up. You can't always tell just by looking. This way we can get'em all at once. We learned this tactic from the communist hunts of the 50's and 60's. SHHHHH...don't tell them.
Because nothing says "love, tolerance and compassion" like segregation.
"topher's logic"...that's hilarious
A moment of madness on my part – mea culpa.
I was confused at first by this headline: "Catholic Notre Dame announces services for gay students"
Reposted here on the Belief Blog I had mistakely interpreted it as "Catholic Notre Dame announces RELIGIOUS services for gay students"
Which would indeed be a step forward for Notre Dame.
OK, The University of Notre Dame is entering the 21st century. Great.
Next story please.
why do people go to school? What is wrong with the picture, Lillis or the other religious nut from West Point, goons?
I am going to paraphrase into what I believe Topher really means:
"I believe in God and that the Bible is true. Thus I believe that ho.mose.xual activity is a sin. So if I think people living in that lifestyle are going to go to Hell (if they don’t repent), how can I justify promoting it as OK?
You know what, Topher?
You don't have to.
Placed this in the wrong post; this is in answer to Topher, not Mo.
What an incredible disservice this school is giving to these students.
How do you figure that ?
JWT – I'm pretty sure what he'll say, but I cant wait to hear this, either.
I'm sorry Topher, but not every religious group is made up of scientifically ignorant dipshits.
Statements like that are why many people think of Christians as bigots.
The Catholics believe in God and that the Bible is true. Thus they believe that ho.mose.xual activity is a sin. So if they think people living in that lifestyle are going to go to Hell (if they don't repent), how can they justify promoting it as OK? How much hate do they have for these students to allow it to go on? How is this a good thing for these students if the Bible is true (as they believe)?
Saw that coming from Topher.
"If you don't discriminate against them you don't love them."
The bible isn't true, therefore all of your arguments are invalid.
Sorry if I come off as a bigot to you, but I'm not trying to. The point is if we believe it to be true, I show you more love to tell you what God says than to just sit back and let you do whatever you want. I can't force anyone to stop that activity. That's their choice. But I have to warn you of the consequences. If I believe it to be true, it's hateful to not say anything.
And this isn't discrimination, it's out of love.
Gosh Topher, just a few years ago Bob Jones University still forbid those "colored" kids from dating white kids. They claimed this was biblical. Because of the students, that policy has been tossed out.
Face it, your bible is wrong.
Before too long you nutters will begin spinning your bible so that it no longer means what you now claim it means. Just like you nutters have through history.
Regardless of what you personally believe the bible says (and different people hold different and equally legitimate opinions) people are still people. To believe in god and the bible is not of necessity to believe that being gay is a sin. I'm not a catholic and do not really care what the position is on the topic of this particular catholic church.
People who believe in god and the bible are the bible are as open to acknowledgement and services. Even those who are sinners in the eyes of their religion are equal people. There is a position that says all people are sinners. If you were to take that position and add that all who sin are to be shunned friom the church then services would be very very small. All in all if you do count gayness as sin it is certainly a harmless one.
I don't care what Bob Jones University said. It matters what God said.
What do you mean that sin "is certainly a harmless one"?
@Topher – you have to warn people of the consequences? What an arrogant statement. Who are you to think that what you choose to believe based on ZERO evidence somehow places you on moral high-ground?
I don't think that's arrogant at all. I'm a vile, wretched sinner. I just know the truth — that God exists and will punish sin — and that continuing in sin will result in eternal punishment. Sometimes the truth hurts, I get it. But I care enough about them (and all of you) to tell you about it. It would be more hateful for me to know that truth and not tell you. I'm not on moral highground. I've probably sinned more than a lot of you. I'm just saved by God's grace and I hope all of you will be, too.
That's the nature of Christianity. Self-righteous bigotry is the cornerstone that has held it together for so long.
Do you take pleasure in being so condescending?
@Topher – no, you don't know; you "believe with out reason". If something is knowable it is provable. Everything you wrote is based on assumption and what you want to believe. It has ZERO to do with rational thought, relflection or truth.
No. I don't want to come off that way at all. In fact, if I am coming off that way, I apologize. Dude, I just care about you and don't want to see any harm come to you. I realize that a message board doesn't allow us to hear compassion in our voice, to look into the eyes of the ones we are talking to ... so again, if I come off the wrong way, I'm sorry.
But we're getting off track here. The point is, if you believe God to be true, how is it a good thing to allow these services?
Primewonk, Your point is a false one, you claim " Bob Jones University still forbid those "colored" kids from dating white kids. They claimed this was biblical. Because of the students, that policy has been tossed out."
Then you state "Face it, your bible is wrong."
The truth is Bob Jones University was wrong and that "rule" is not found in the Bible. Good spin though!!
Using Topher's logic, since everyone is a sinner, then services should be available to no one. Religion problem solved.
That's ridiculous. The problem is the service is one that promotes sin. If a group gets together to watch sports, there's no problem there.
There are a number of things that are thought to be sinful in the bible. Being gay causes no harm to anyone, other than the gay individual if they were to believe in that particular interpretation of the bible. Being gay causes zero harm to any other person and zero harm to society.
That's your opinion, don't you get it? I don't care how right you think you are, and neither would those LGBT students. The only people who care how right you think you are are those who already believe as you do. You are condescending Topher because you don't give two shits about the thoughts, beliefs, or non-beliefs of anyone other than yourself. You take something on faith, and expect people to just sit back and let you tell them that no human is worth anything, and take you seriously because you think you're right. You promote a book that endorses rapre, slavery, mysoginy, and genocide all in the name of that god.
You may not think you're condescending, but your posts betray you, and show you for what you really are.
Not ridiculous at all. You assert that everyone is a sinner, yet you focus your energy on denying only one segment of sinner access to religious services. Claiming that this is "love" is disingenuous at best.
Leo, it's not my point that is false. It's what Bob Jones University, and the ignorant fundiots claimed came from their bible. Just like the ignorant fundiot nutters who formed the SBC in 1845 did so because they claimed their god told them via their Bible that they were supposed to own black people. Just like some Baptists today claim their god tells them that women should be subserviant to men.
All religious nutters spin their bible in order to make it say what they want it to say in order to justify their internal beliefs.
I thought you'd consider such services a positive thing!
The Catholic church believes that
1) All people are sinners
2) All people who come to Christ through the Holy See are redeemed.
Righteousness is not something that is granted forevermore in the waters of Baptism.
Participating in the rituals is just an indicator that one is trying to live righteously, knowing full well that all who try fall short of the Glory of God.
Why do you think Catholics have confession? It is so that those who have transgressed against God can atone for their sins and go about their spiritual quest with a clean slate (so to speak).
Sermons and such are not designed for those who have all ready conquered their sinful natures – they are for those who need reassurance and guidance.
And yes, I find it ironic that I'm an atheist arguing with a believer about why church services are a good thing, but sometimes you just gotta think like a Catholic.
Now pass me some communion wine and a witch to burn.
Topher, are you saying they should not create a welcoming environment for people you consider a sinner? Wouldn't it be better for them to be at a Catholic school and feel comfortable enough to stay there so they can continue to be exposed to Catholic values?
Topher (again) wrote, " The problem is the service is one that promotes sin."
And again, being born gay is no more a sin than being born left-handed or black. This is simply one more thing your scientifically ignorant putz of a god got completely wrong.
In my opinion Doc and lunchbreak (I hardly ever agree with either) have composed the Catholic stance quite well. All Catholics and others interested in becoming Catholic are welcome to the faith. At which time, we will hear the teachings that inform our conscience and practice the holy sacraments. This is why people who say Catholics hate one group or another are wrong. Hate is not involved, love is. This does not mean that your choices, defects, lifestyle or sin will be condoned by the church. Only that you are welcome to come and worship, reconcile, communicate, adore and fellowship with others.
We are all sinners, but they are already welcomed at the school — hence admission and classes. The problem is they are providing specific services to people willfully living in sin. Now, if that service (and I should point out that we're not talking about religiois services) is explaining to them why it is a sin or why they should turn from it, etc., sure, I guess. But living by "Catholic" or "Christian" values won't help them in eternity. They need to have their sins forgiven ... and to do that they must repent of them and turn away from them.
Sorry, need to add a correction. While some behaviors may not be a sin to Doc, they certainly are to the Catholic church. It get's a little confusing sometimes when someone outside the faith pronounces an opinion that contradicts the catechism. The fact of orientation is not, of itself ,sinful. But misconduct is, no matter the orientation. This seems to be a fine point which is lost to our generation due to the indulgence in seexual liberation many have been indoctrinated with
"they are already welcomed, hence the admission and classes" – yeah, I'm sure the tuition revenue has nothing to do with it....
Your assertion is correct, "Primewonk". The bible is, in fact, wrong.
Using your unfounded beliefs as a basis to treat someone differently ant tell them they are a bad person is not love, it's bigotry. I am starting to believe that fundamentalists do not know what love is.
@Topher: You stated that "we are all sinners". I am not a sinner, nor have I ever sinned. What evidence can you present that surpports your claim that you know that I am a sinner?
Gopher: You do not speak for god.
Interestingly, Topher seems to be ignoring my posts.
Get ready for Ray Comfort arguments.
Just imagine what would happen if the Catholic Church denied communion to all those who are guilty of violating the Vatican's proscriptions against se/x.
I'd guess that straight couples who use birth control and non-celibate divorcees (including those who have re-married) make up a fair percentage of the Catholic population in the United States.
Part of the Catechism is the concept of Primacy of Conscience.
"Man has the right to act according to his conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters".
So if a person can reconcile being gay with being Catholic without it bothering their conscience, they're free to do so.
You are a sinner becuase a clone grown from the first human's rib had a conversation with a reptile who convinced her to consume magic fruit.
My hate comes from a a place of love, so it's ok to hate as long as it's done lovingly. Hateful love.... lovely hate... what's the correct term here?
Oh, I like that one!
Doc, That would seem like a viable loophole that could be used for any number of sinful behaviors. The fly in the ointment though is the honest examination of conscience. If I truly compare my behavior to the teaching of the church, am I vindicated or condemned. If vindicated, by all means communicate (that means take communion). If I find myself lacking, there is reconciliation, which requires repentance (that means turn away from).
I have personally never seen and only recently ever heard of a priest denying communion to anyone based on their state of grace. The paragraph you quoted gives guidance under which each person should consider withholding themselves from communion, not as a vehicle to allow communion while in unrepentant sin.
Did Topher run away already?
Prolly went to confession Hawaii. Have you?
I'm back. Had to go get some reading in before work.
I have nothing to confess for, and I'm already off the registrys, and no longer have any affiliation with the Catholic Church, and you bringing up this irrelevant idiocy merely shows, once again, that you have nothing relevant to say.
I confess that I am human. What I have achieved in life is directly related to how much effort I put into it. My accomplishments are my own just as my failings are my own.
Sorry hawaii, I know how you like to make fun of Topher. No need to be defensive. I was simply enjoying the same kind of joke at your expense.
You really don't know how to be anything except a condescending fuckwit do you?
Isn't it interesting the fall-back defense of the atheist is the language of naughty children?
Off to work. I hope you all have a good evening. God bless.
Can you tell me how the RCC heirarchy deals with the in-house gay clergy? Would be rather strange to be receiving communion from one that has not repented their sin?
Hawiiguest is spot on, self-righteous idiocy.
In theory, priests are celibate so their natural se/xual predilections aren't an issue to the Church.
Correct again Doc. The fact that a priest has a particular orientation (or any other sinful nature for that matter) does not preclude him from his ordination. This fact should illustrate the point that it is not the orientation which the Church opposes but the acting thereon. The Church acknowledges, in fact espouses, that all men are tempted by their sinful nature but it through the grace of God and the Passion of Jesus that we are forgiven, redeemed and set upright to walk with Him, through HIm, and by Him. It's actually a very beautiful religion if you can get past the misconceived distortions, self centered rebelliousness and outright bigotry that is thrown at it both from outside as well as inside.
There you go again with the ideal teachings of the church, to bad it has little to do with the teachings of your biblical christ. Ganhdi, again, but christians are so unlike your christ. So I as*sume you wil lead the charge to sell of the wealth of the RCC and distribute it to the poor and suffering, I/We are still waiting for thar day.
That sounds like a reasonable thing to do guy even though you offer it as a petty challenge. The only problem is that selling the holdings and disbursing the proceeds would only be a short term attempt to solve world poverty. I think I'll trust and rely on the stewardship of the Episcopate which has ministered to more poor and hungry over the last 2000 years than any ten other organizations or systems you can add together. It's the whole teach a man to fish thing don't cha know?
And yes, if the hope of my Church were less than ideal I should have no use for it.
Religion is a warped rationale for bigotry. Topher's rationale makes as much sense to him as another group's rationale for their bigotry. From my perspective it's simply another reason why religion must end, and thankfully it is dying out.
Your take "It is actually a very beautiful religion" is fine for the devout. My point is that you ignore the amount of horror that was done through out the history of the RCC, including the present day scandals and corruption. You see if you get your hope "redeemed and set upright to walk with him", do you not think that the vicar of christ on earth and his followers would be the last people on earth He would embrace, I do not think he is into hypocrisy like the RCC is.
You keep saying "god says this and god says that".
1. Prove it. You were not there.
2. If HUMANS wrote their cultural values into a scroll, which got voted 1000 years later into a set of books, (the Bible), why, 2000 years after THAT should we STILL listen to ancient humans ?
You are a deluded fool. Stop your preaching, and go get help.
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.