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Opinion: Seeking the truth about Jesus
A nativity scene from St. Catherine's Church in Bethlehem in the West Bank.
December 26th, 2012
05:01 AM ET

Opinion: Seeking the truth about Jesus

By Jay Parini, Special to CNN

Editor's note: Jay Parini, poet and novelist, is author of the forthcoming book, "Jesus: The Human Face of God." He is the Axinn Professor of English at Middlebury College.

(CNN) - At Christmas, the name of Jesus resounds everywhere in homes, churches, in hauntingly gorgeous carols, even casual conversations. Yet Christians didn't settle on December 25 as Christmas day until the fourth century, and this choice probably had something to do with its proximity to the winter solstice or its position as the final day of the Roman Saturnalia.

It was in the late third century, in fact, that the Roman emperor Aurelian established this date as a feast day celebrating the birth of the Unconquered Sun (Sol Invictus), so it already had festive and quasi-religious prominence. Now it serves to welcome the infant who became Christ, the Greek word for Messiah.

There are probably as many visions of Jesus, and versions, as there are Christians. Many regard him as their savior, the Son of God sent to Earth to save human beings from themselves. Others see him as a great teacher, a healer or rabbi of extraordinary power, a holy man or prophet who proposed a new covenant between heaven and earth. To some, he represents a new world order, an egalitarian society, a preacher of nonviolence who asked us to turn the other cheek.

FULL STORY
- A. Hawkins

Filed under: Jesus • Opinion

soundoff (381 Responses)
  1. christ_child1991

    If GOD and Jesus dont exist then how come BC means before Christ and AD mean Anno Domini which is Latin for in the year of our lord

    December 26, 2012 at 1:43 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

      You're not serious are you?

      December 26, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • Get Real

      The B.C./A.D dating system was the brainchild of a monk named Dionysius in the 6th century, as he tried to put together a calendar of when to celebrate Easter each year. The Church was very powerful in those days and controlled many aspects of society, including politics, economics, literature and history-writing... still, his dating system took hundreds of years (nearly 1000) to be inst-ituted world-wide. Many cultures still keep their ancient calendars going on the side.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      If jesus isnt real, then why am i wearing a cross around my neck? Check mate atheists.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • Thoth

      So a calendar created by the very empire that spread christianity via force is proof of god and jesus? I'm not quite convinced. Got anything else?

      December 26, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • mama k

      oh my. LOL.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      ehahhahahhaahhaahh... that made my day

      December 26, 2012 at 2:21 pm |
    • Rollin' with Sisyphus

      What it does show is that in the 6th century there was no doubt that Jesus did exist to them.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:48 pm |
    • Which God?

      @ cc1991. Yep, you did fall off the tunip wagon yesterday. I didn't think anyone could be that stupid, but you proved me wrong. You idiots will say anything to try to justify your goD.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:32 pm |
    • Which God?

      @rolling with sissypus. You proved your ignorance as wel, backing up the idiocy of cc1991. You and that idiot are the laughingstock of the forum. Ignorance is bliss and you are blissfully ignorant.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:36 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Which God?

      I won't argue with your assertion, but not on the basis of this statement:

      "What it does show is that in the 6th century there was no doubt that Jesus did exist to them."

      It does seem fair to suggest that in 6th century Europe, people believed in Jesus sufficiently ubiquitously for Dionysius Exiguus' suggestion to be carried out and change the numbering system from one based on the years of Roman Emperor's rules.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • Rollin' with Sisyphus

      Which God?- "You proved your ignorance as wel, backing up the idiocy of cc1991. You and that idiot are the laughingstock of the forum. Ignorance is bliss and you are blissfully ignorant."

      Wow...such foolishness on your part. My statement is sound and you seem to have a problem with it. I didn't say anything like, "you are stupid for not believing that Jesus existed".

      If you have a problem with factual statements, go get your head examined.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:22 pm |
    • christ_child1991

      @Which God
      No I didnt fall off the turnip wagon and it is people like you that fulfill GODS' word John 15:18“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you."

      December 27, 2012 at 10:11 am |
  2. RC

    The truth is that Jesus is the Son of God who came into th e world to seek and save the lost.
    Until the blinders are removed no sense debating this whether Chad believe it now or not.
    Truth is still truth.

    December 26, 2012 at 1:27 pm |
    • Really??

      The real truth is that men made up the bible and created god, jesus, and many other characters, who never existed.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:29 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @RC

      Saying "X is true" doesn't make it so.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Truth is irrefutable and carries within itself its own obvious proofs. Christ as god-man is easily refuted and has no obvious proofs. Christ, as most recognize him, is a myth, and god is too invisible and unmeasurable to exist-–it simply doesn't matter if something invisible and unmeasurable exists.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      if Jesus really is the son of that god (which he is not) , that bastard has some explaining to do,.. how come he can breed with humans but I cant marry one

      December 26, 2012 at 1:30 pm |
    • December

      I have experienced this to be true. My life is definitely better with Jesus than without. He is real and He lives.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:39 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @December

      Yes I can imagine how your life would be better when you don't need to take any responsibility for things you do here. However, that doesn't demonstrate your god.

      My life got much better when I dropped belief in god, therefore god doesn't exist. (This is your logic).

      December 26, 2012 at 1:45 pm |
    • christ_child1991

      @December
      Amen my life is better with Jesus Christ the son of GOD than it ever would be without him and you are right he does live and is real

      December 26, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
    • December

      I am responsible for what I do. And what I do matters. My choices have consequences, just like yours.

      I'm not trying to demonstrate God to you in a blog's message board. I don't know why you would bring that up.

      If your life got better when you dropped belief in your god, than I would look at that consequence as good.

      Mine definitely got better.

      I praise Jesus Christ for this.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:54 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @December

      That doesn't make any sense. The entire thing with Jesus is that anyone who believes in him have their sins forgiven. How is this being responsible for your actions? In christian doctrine, if you really really believe, and are really really sorry, then you're forgiven, no reparations needed.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • craniumthedumb

      You are incorrect to my understanding. To repent one must make reparations to the best of your abillity.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:01 pm |
    • December

      The entire thing with Jesus is that anyone who believes in him have their sins forgiven.
      > God forgives even if you don't believe in Him.

      How is this being responsible for your actions? In christian doctrine, if you really really believe, and are really really sorry, then you're forgiven, no reparations needed.
      > Nope. We definitely need to make amends for our sins that have harmed others. What we do matters. And when we have harmed our family and neighbors we have to admit it. And offer to make it right.
      And if we follow Jesus we have to do more difficult and uncomfortable things, like love our enemies. Go the extra mile for people. And give help to poor.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @December

      I have seen none of that as being necessary to enter heaven in the bible. The main thing has always been belief in Jesus as savior.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:10 pm |
    • December

      I think if we follow Jesus on Earth we can get a little Heaven on Earth.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:25 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Talk about jumping to something completely different.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:27 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      if we follow Jesus we have to do more difficult and uncomfortable things, like love our enemies. Go the extra mile for people. And give help to poor.

      all these thing i do,.. while cursing the name of JC supposed father and believing Christ is nothing more then a human

      the fact is the Celtic Commonwealth had no poor because the druids redistributed the wealth to those in need

      those who had gave to those who don't.. so helping the poor was not an original idea,...and loving they enemy once again the Pagan Celts/sidh did this to if an enemy dropped to their knees and asked for mercy they were free to leave, even kings took in war orphans,.. not to mention they never stated any conflicts only answered them. so loving your enemy was not an original idea ether, in fact the Yamato Japaneses (pagan shinto) only had on word for enemy; it was friend

      December 26, 2012 at 2:30 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      I see that no one has answered my challenge but rather reaffirmed my point. It is the BELIEF that christ is real, living, and changing reality for you that has the power-–by your own admission.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:36 pm |
    • December

      Hawaiiguest
      > You are asking about "Heaven". The after life. I haven't died. I don't know. But with Jesus I get a little heaven on earth. I'm more focused on today rather than when I die.

      > Sam Yaza
      I'm glad I didn't claim these were "original" ideas! It is just what He asks of me.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • Rollin' with Sisyphus

      Really??- "The real truth is that men made up.."

      You got evidence to back this statement up? You would have to show who created it, where, how and why. Good luck.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @December

      I was talking about getting into heaven according to christian doctrine.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • Really??

      Who created the bible is not up for dispute. In its current form, 40 men wrote 66 books...all of them men. Do your own homework junior!

      December 26, 2012 at 2:52 pm |
    • Rollin' with Sisyphus

      @Really??- Ah...but no one really said that was the point now did they? You said "made up" in regards to those individuals. Can you prove they made it up? I bet you cannot.
      And you can keep your left handed ad hominems to yourself ;)

      December 26, 2012 at 2:56 pm |
    • December

      That's not what it is all about.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:11 pm |
  3. lol??

    "Joe 3:14 Multi tudes, multi tudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision."

    December 26, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
    • christ_child1991

      Thank must be in the book with Hesitations 3:16 "For I think it is fake so therefore I will not believe" seriously what book is that from its not from my bible

      December 26, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      God and christ provide no measurable result. Nothing done in Christ's name could not be done in the name of another; God is so invisible and undetectable that it doesn't matter whether or not he exists. Belief exists, and that belief is where the power is. "God" is within you in the form of belief, but that belief does nothing measurable in reality

      December 26, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • Really??

      child
      it is from the book of common sense and reason....something you left behind in order to believe.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:23 pm |
    • christ_child1991

      Well as a child of GOD I still have my common sense and reason so I did not leave that behind to become a believer as a matter of fact I didnt leave anything behind to become a believer so your point is null and void

      December 26, 2012 at 1:49 pm |
  4. lol??

    By Jay Parini, Special to CNN, just another antichrist poet lookin' for sales.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • sam stone

      oooooh....an anti-christ....pretty scary....for those who believe in it

      December 26, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • lol??

      Well sammy, fear is one of your base emotions. It always pops up. The scary part is unca sugar's IRS allows the poets a write-off on their computers.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:09 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      i'm Anti-christian and i vote, actually i'm anti Yah-ist that included Muslims,Jews,and Christians

      December 26, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Sam Yaza

      and if Jesus really is the son of that god (which he is not) , that bastard has some explaining to do,.. how come he can breed with humans but I cant marry one

      December 26, 2012 at 1:28 pm |
  5. JohnQuest

    I'm not certain I understand the argument, even if Jesus was a "Real Boy" it only proves that some dude name Jesus really did exist back in the day. What does that say about a God, or anything else, as far as I can tell this dude Jesus never wrote anything and we have only hearsay of what he might have said to someone (and this decades after he died).

    Would any reasonable person today blame or praise anyone based on this same type of evidence, I think not.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:32 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Never wrote a book, or a song
      Never held political power
      Never married or had children
      Never owned a home or much of anything
      Never led an army
      Never traveled more than 200 miles from his place of birth
      Never defended himself from his accusers
      Died at 33 years of age and placed in a borrowed grave

      Most influential person of all time

      December 26, 2012 at 4:16 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      You are right Bill, and I expect more from someone that is claimed to be god spreading his world for ALL the people.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
  6. the AnViL

    e v e r y account of jebus is HEARSAY. every account of every account of jebus was also HEARSAY.

    e v e r y thing written about the jebus was written by people who n e v e r actually met the jebus. none of the new testament authors ever met the jebus – heck – no one knows who wrote most of it lol.

    but yeah – they're all sure he was real! says so in the bible!

    what's funniest though, are all the parallels from other stories that came before the new testament.
    all the previous stories that contain so many of the elements of the stories of jebus.

    in all probability – there was never any jebus. that's a really hard pill for xians to swallow.

    xians should literally be ashamed to be so dumb.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:16 pm |
    • Kinsey

      "xians should literally be ashamed to be so dumb."

      Yes, but the godgasms feel SO good that they just can't stop.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:26 pm |
  7. The Truth

    "At Christmas, the name of Jesus resounds everywhere in homes, churches, in hauntingly gorgeous carols, even casual conversations. Yet Christians" still want to invent a war on Christmas so they can feel like the victims when really they are the perpetrators of mass delusions and attempted peer pressure on everyone around them not to just allow but to accept Christmas as the one and only truth. It's like trying to get someone to eat a stick of dog poop by having everyone else smiling while wearing shlt mustaches saying "Come on take a bite, you'll like it!" and then claiming discrimination when someone says no thanks and pushes the turd away that you've been shoving in their face.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
  8. Thoth

    If you have decided that he did, or did not exist then you aren't seeking truth anyway; simply confirmation of what you believe. To seek truth objectively one cannot have an unyielding predetermination.

    IMO, based on information available, I believe Jesus (the man) probably existed as a local evangelical of his time. His life was most likely revisioned by his followers.

    December 26, 2012 at 12:00 pm |
  9. Brampt

    Jesus went asking his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?”14They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E‧li′jah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”15He said to them: “YOU, though, who do ​YOU​ say I am?”16In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matt 16:13-16

    December 26, 2012 at 11:44 am |
  10. hippypoet

    the truth of jesus is a fictional story for no evidence exists of his existence! simple as that!

    December 26, 2012 at 11:31 am |
    • Chad

      Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[5][6][7][8] and biblical scholars and cla ssical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[9][10][11] Scholars generally agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born BC 7–2 and died AD 30–36.[12][13] Most scholars hold that Jesus lived in Galilee and Judea[14][15][16] and that he spoke Aramaic and may have also spoken Hebrew and Greek.[17][18][19][20][21] Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal as sent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

      [5] Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies by Craig A. Evans 2001 ISBN 0391041185 pages 2-5
      [6] Christopher M. Tuckett In The Cambridge Companion to Jesus edited by Markus N. A. Bockmuehl 2001 ISBN 0521796784 pages 122-126
      [7] Amy-Jill Levine in the The Historical Jesus in Context edited by Amy-Jill Levine et al. 2006 Princeton Univ Press ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6 pages 1-2
      [8] Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium by Bart D. Ehrman (Sep 23, 1999) ISBN 0195124731 Oxford Univ Press pages ix-xi
      [9] In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (who is a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285
      ^ Robert M. Price (an atheist who denies existence) agrees that this perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars: Robert M. Price "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in The Historical Jesus: Five Views edited by James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy, 2009 InterVarsity, ISBN 028106329X page 61
      [10] Michael Grant (a cla ssicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200
      [11] Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34
      [12] Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and cla ssical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"
      [13] James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
      [14] The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states : "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".
      [15] Paul L. Maier "The Date of the Nativity and Chronology of Jesus" in Chronos, kairos, Christos: nativity and chronological studies by Jerry Vardaman, Edwin M. Yamauchi 1989 ISBN 0-931464-50-1 pages 113-129
      [16] The Cradle, the Cross, and the Crown: An Introduction to the New Testament by Andreas J. Köstenberger, L. Scott Kellum 2009 ISBN 978-0-8054-4365-3 page 114
      ^ Joel B. Green, Scot McKnight, I. Howard Marshall, Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (InterVarsity Press, 1992), page 442
      [17] The Historical Jesus in Recent Research edited by James D. G. Dunn and Scot McKnight 2006 ISBN 1-57506-100-7 page 303
      [18] Who Is Jesus? by John Dominic Crossan, Richard G. Watts 1999 ISBN 0664258425 pages 28-29
      [19] James Barr, Which language did Jesus speak, Bulletin of the John Rylands University Library of Manchester, 1970; 53(1) pages 9-29 [1]
      [20] Handbook to exegesis of the New Testament by Stanley E. Porter 1997 ISBN 90-04-09921-2 pages 110-112
      [21] Discovering the language of Jesus by Douglas Hamp 2005 ISBN 1-59751-017-3 page 3-4
      ^ Jesus in history and myth by R. Joseph Hoffmann 1986 ISBN 0-87975-332-3 page 98

      December 26, 2012 at 11:33 am |
    • hippypoet

      no evidence means what? he was put to death by the romans who kept rather decent records...where is his name? he shares the story of his life with many many other fictional characters in history...what does that tell you?

      he most likely didn't exist!

      December 26, 2012 at 11:36 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      Of course the above highlighted statements are not facts, but are merely opinions.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • Chad

      "he was put to death by the romans who kept rather decent records...where is his name? "

      =>If Roman records of that time survive today, where are the records of Pontius Pilate :-)

      hint, there arent any that survived to this day, in fact up until the discovery of the "Pilate Stone" in 1961, atheists gleefully declared that he was an invention of the Gospels.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:39 am |
    • hippypoet

      No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All doc.uments about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

      he never existed...get over it!

      December 26, 2012 at 11:40 am |
    • Chad

      "he was put to death by the romans who kept rather decent records...where is his name?

      as well, where are the Roman records of ANY crucified person during that time period?
      since there arent any
      does that mean they didnt crucify anyone?
      or
      is it more likely that those records simply didnt survive to this day?

      December 26, 2012 at 11:43 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      And here we go with Chad's "no evidence is evidence" argument. . .

      December 26, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • hippypoet

      we have records from decades before and large amounts of them...we have letters written by private citizens to others...we have lots of records – NONE OF THEM mention jesus....and i never said the pontius was fictional...and we do have records of him. thought you should know.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:49 am |
    • Chad

      Actually, the big challenge for "Jesus deniers" is to find a single historian that believes that Jesus was not a real historical figure.

      Like the 9-11 conspiracy theorists, and the holocaust deniers, there are always a fringe element of crazies that deny reality. No evidence would ever suffice for them, they are just to deeply emotionally attached to the denial, to ever abandon it no matter how irrational it is demonstrated to be..

      December 26, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • Damocles

      I have absolutely no evidence that 17 drunk gerbils in a fit of giggling like maniacs managed to pass gas in such a way as to bring about the whole of the universe. Obviously, then, this is another creation myth that I demand be taught in schools. All the evidence is not there to support my point of view so it must be taken seriously.

      If lack of evidence is all that is needed, I have literally a ton of myths I'd like to see taught.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:51 am |
    • Russells Teapot

      Well Chad, one would think that a figure as important as Jesus would have at least warranted a honorable mention in Roman records. I mean come on, the dude rose from the dead! Not only that but according to one of the gospels, dozens of dead saints arose and wandered the city! Surely this would get mention?

      December 26, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • Damocles

      @chad

      It's all well and good to say he existed, I have no problem with that. Was he the savior of mankind? Ehhh, no.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:53 am |
    • Really

      Chad
      Every bit of progress of humane feeling, every improvement in criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the coloured races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistantly opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.
      Bertrand Russell

      The religions based on the belief in jesus as christ served to impede knowledge, foster fear and dependancy, and are responsible for much of the war, oppresion, and missery that have best the world.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:58 am |
    • Really

      beset not best.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • Chad

      @hippypoet "we have records from decades before and large amounts of them"
      @Chad "no records of any crucified person, none from that time period. none. zero, nada.
      you'll be quite surprised when you actually do a little investigation instead of just speculating.

      =======
      @hippypoet "we have letters written by private citizens to others"
      @Chad "you mean, like this:

      Josephus (A.D. 37 – c. A.D. 100)
      Josephus' Antiquities (early 2nd century A.D.) refers to Jesus in two separate pa ssages. The common translation of the first pa ssage, Book 18, Ch. 3, part 3, is disputed and is most likely from an altered source. F. F. Bruce has provided a more likely translation:
      Now there arose at this time a source of further trouble in one Jesus, a wise man who performed surprising works, a teacher of men who gladly welcome strange things. He led away many Jews, and also many of the Gentiles. He was the so-called Christ. When Pilate, acting on information supplied by the chief men around us, condemned him to the cross, those who had attached themselves to him at first did not cease to cause trouble, and the tribe of Christians, which has taken this name from him is not extinct even today.
      The translations of this pa ssage are discussed in Josephus: Testimonium Flavianum from Jesus.com.au.
      The second pa ssage is from Book 20, Ch. 9, part 1:

      ...so he as sembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned...
      (Note: The Antiquities can be found at several different sites, including the Christian Cla ssics Ethereal Library, Perseus Digital Library and Crosswalk.com)

      Tacitus (c. A.D. 55 – c. A.D. 117) Annals, book XV:
      Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a cla ss hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superst ition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

      Suetonius (c. A.D. 69 – c. A.D. 140)
      Lives of the Caesars – Claudius, sec. 25:

      He banished from Rome all the Jews, who were continually making disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus.
      Lives of the Caesars – Nero, sec. 16
      Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a cla ss of men given to a new and mischievous superst ition.

      Julius Africanus (c. 160 – c. 240)
      Chronography, XVIII refers to writings by Thallus and Phlegon concerning the darkness during the Crucifixion:

      On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun...Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth – manifestly that one of which we speak.

      Origen (c. 185 – c. 254)
      In Against Celsus, Origen quotes Celsus, a second-century skeptic, on Jesus. Celsus' view of Christians and Christianity, an article from Bluffton College, contains relevant excerpts.

      Pliny the Younger (c. 62 – c. 113) Letters, 10.96-97 records Pliny's dealings with Christians

      =======
      @hippypoet "i never said the pontius was fictional...and we do have records of him. thought you should know."
      @Chad "there are ZERO records of pontius pilate :-)
      you'll be quite surprised when you actually do a little investigation instead of just speculating.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:02 pm |
    • Chad

      @Russells Teapot " one would think that a figure as important as Jesus would have at least warranted a honorable mention in Roman records"
      =>were ARE the roman records from Judea during the years 30-35 AD? :-)
      there arent any.

      =>can you name a single reputable historian that claims Jesus never existed?

      December 26, 2012 at 12:04 pm |
    • Akira

      Chad, do you know what the term 'contemporary' of Jesus means?
      It means licing/occurring at the same time.
      Every one of those people every one, were born after Jesus's death.
      You have been told this before; why do you persist in supplying "evidence" that was not written by Jesus's CONTEMPORARIES?

      December 26, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • fred

      Scholars agree on the historicity of the crucifixion and baptism of Jesus. I find it interesting that these are two major points of agreement to this day and they are the main issues surrounding Christ. At baptism the fullness of Christ was seen in the trinity; The Father proclaimed this is my Son and the Holy Spirit was upon him. Perhaps the focus of study was to discredit the church or doctrine of trinity yet reputable critics remain silenced to this day as the attempts to discredit turned out to highlight the beginning of the ministry of Jesus.
      The same spotlight was put on the crucifixion of Jesus by attempts to discredit the cross which put an end to power of sin past, present and future.
      All I can say is the power of our living God over all efforts of the world to bury the glory of God is self evident . Atheists that continue to argue against the consensus of respected critical scholars simply betray their own cause. It would be better for them to look in the mirror and ask what drives such denial of the known. Once you identify the driving force of blind bias you are on the way towards recovery.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:18 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Chad,

      You never answered my questions about Vilenkin's Past-Finite Universe theorem you posted, why you run Chad?

      December 26, 2012 at 12:19 pm |
    • Really

      Chad
      Could have been a whole bunch of guys named jesus at the time and one may have been an itinerant preacher with some followers who may have been written about, happy now? But all that supernatural stuff is a little hard for any but the brainwashed to belive, enjoy your delusion.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:22 pm |
    • Chad

      @Akira "Chad, do you know what the term 'contemporary' of Jesus means? It means licing/occurring at the same time.
      Every one of those people every one, were born after Jesus's death. You have been told this before; why do you persist in supplying "evidence" that was not written by Jesus's CONTEMPORARIES?"

      @Chad "where is the contemporary evidence for Pontius Pilate?
      where is the contemporary evidence for John the Baptist?

      where is the contemporary evidence for ANY non-ruler of the first century?

      starting to see a pattern?
      1. there werent any reporters at that time..
      2. "records" dont survive from that period
      3. the only artifacts that did, are minted coins, inscriptions on public works, and the writings of the half dozen or so historians during that time (see above for their references of Jesus)

      December 26, 2012 at 12:29 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      The stories (acts)of Jesus are clearly fictional.If jesus did exist as a person he was like crazies we see with their "following" in compounds etc. Jesus would have been Waco, TX crazy.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:30 pm |
    • Chad

      @Cheesemakers "You never answered my questions about Vilenkin's Past-Finite Universe theorem you posted, why you run Chad?"

      =>what were the questions?

      December 26, 2012 at 12:31 pm |
    • Akira

      *living, not licing.

      "Like the 9-11 conspiracy theorists, and the holocaust deniers, there are always a fringe element of crazies that deny reality. No evidence would ever suffice for them, they are just to deeply emotionally attached to the denial, to ever abandon it no matter how irrational it is demonstrated..."

      The difference, Chad, is there is MASSIVE written evidence, written during the time it actually happened.
      You, yourself believe it ABSENT of written evidence by Jesus's contemporaries.
      And that's okay, but it isn't evidence that Jesus was divine.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
    • Chad

      @Akira "The difference, Chad, is there is MASSIVE written evidence, written during the time it actually happened."
      @Chad "you lost me, massive evidence of 9-11/holocaust denial, or are you talking about first century historians?

      If it's the latter, you do realize that there are quite literally only a half dozen or so historians in that period, during that time?

      December 26, 2012 at 12:42 pm |
    • Really

      Akira, Chad is using devious points again....
      1. He will ignore your proposition.
      2. Try and change the meaning of your words,
      3. Simply ignore questions put to him and/or answer a question with a question.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:42 pm |
    • Chad

      Again, dont merely take my word for it.

      Try and find a single reputable historian that does not believe that Jesus was a real historical figure.
      :-)

      December 26, 2012 at 12:45 pm |
    • Akira

      Why specify non-ruler?
      If there is no written evidence of those people AT ALL, see the pattern THERE, Chad?

      December 26, 2012 at 12:47 pm |
    • Really

      Akira, more Chadism
      When you point out that his reply does not make sense he will advance a subtle distinction.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      They were posted Chad, don't act like you don't know where to find them.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:51 pm |
    • Chad

      @Akira "Why specify non-ruler? If there is no written evidence of those people AT ALL, see the pattern THERE, Chad?"

      =>because rulers had the power to have their names/faces on coins and buildings, the primary archaeological evidence that survived till today.

      still havent found a single reputable historian that thinks that Jesus was not a real historical figure? :-)

      December 26, 2012 at 12:52 pm |
    • Chad

      @Cheesemakers "They were posted Chad, don't act like you don't know where to find them."
      =>where?

      it's simple, just provide a link

      December 26, 2012 at 12:53 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Really

      Akira, Chad is using devious points again....
      1. He will ignore your proposition.
      2. Try and change the meaning of your words,
      3. Simply ignore questions put to him and/or answer a question with a question.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:42 pm | Report abuse |

      Chad

      Again, dont merely take my word for it.

      Try and find a single reputable historian that does not believe that Jesus was a real historical figure.

      ---–

      You dont say. lol Chad is in the same line as people who believe fairies and magical dragons exist.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:54 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      **Try and find a single reputable historian that does not believe that Jesus was a real historical figure.**

      Richard Carrier

      But whither he was a historical figure or not....is not the question, was he god? There is no reason to think he was god.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:57 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/20/christmas-exposes-atheist-divide-on-dealing-with-religion/comment-page-30/#comments

      December 26, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      **Try and find a single reputable historian that does not believe that Jesus was a real historical figure.**

      Richard Carrier

      But whither he was a historical figure or not....is not the question, was he god? There is no reason to think he was god.
      .
      You dont get it...he was a god because of what so and so said and so and so and so and so said. Welcome to the World of Chad

      December 26, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Chad is red herring personified. What he knows, but will not tell you or admit, is that "historical records" of Jesus' existence matter not at all. If none existed, he would believe because of his overarching "invisible-sky-wizard-did-it-with-magic-spellz" thought virus. If the records are proved to only reference a character or characters widely recognized because of their ideas, but not necessarily any sort of god prophet, Chad will continue to believe. If those same records think Hercules existed, too, as well as Jesus, Chad will continue to believe.

      The records don't matter to Chad, and therefore, should not matter to anyone else. The proof of god's nonexistence and Jesus' irrelevance is the lack of power and the absence of evidence. God is so invisible and unmeasurable, that it makes no difference whether or not he exists. Jesus the character, man, and myth is a fact of our history even if there is no reason at all to consider him as the Christards do.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:03 pm |
    • Chad

      @Chad **Try and find a single reputable historian that does not believe that Jesus was a real historical figure.**

      @Cheese "Richard Carrier "But whither he was a historical figure or not....is not the question, was he god? There is no reason to think he was god".

      @Chad "really?
      Carrier argues that Jesus is a real historical figure.. I guess you didnt understand the question I posed.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:05 pm |
    • sam stone

      "a fringe element of crazies that deny reality."

      and you are their king

      December 26, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
    • Really

      Akira, another Chadism
      He will make his point by citing authorities rather than rely on his own reason and logic. Hence, giving a long list of his "experts" and demanding you provide a debunking list also.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:07 pm |
    • hippypoet

      chad – the only thing you said worthy of retort is about Josephus...he wrote his histories after the supposed death...he was born after the supposed birth...sounds like a great source to me!!>!!> not really!!!

      i said a contemporary of jesus – surely a man of that worth would have things written about him during his own lifetime yes? do you think the great things done by jesus is worthy of being written about to tell others of a mans deeds? strange that none exist isn't? 30-90 years since death went by before anything was written about jesus...odd or purposeful?

      December 26, 2012 at 1:15 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Chad suffers from a self imposed mental illness.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:17 pm |
    • fred

      Christianity is a form of mental illness
      Jesus was not God he was the full representation of God. God cannot be seen by man and even Moses could only catch a glimpse of the Glory of God. This is where atheists fail in their attempt to bring God down to their level of understanding. God cannot be brought down and made into an image atheist can understand. We are the creation and made from other things which naturalists applaud because it is the limits of what naturalists can know. Everything you ever encountered in your lifetime was as a creature dependent on other created things for your survival. When you reject a creator you become solely dependent on self and the things you need. That is all you can see and that is all you need. Reality includes the Creator whether you can see it or not does not change the reality that is.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:18 pm |
    • Really

      Akira then Chad will resort to lines like...
      You don't seem to have understood; I am confused; Can you explain what you mean; That is not the way I understand; any ruse to avoid a direct honest answer.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      hippypoet

      chad – the only thing you said worthy of retort is about Josephus...he wrote his histories after the supposed death...he was born after the supposed birth...sounds like a great source to me!!>!!> not really!!!

      i said a contemporary of jesus – surely a man of that worth would have things written about him during his own lifetime yes? do you think the great things done by jesus is worthy of being written about to tell others of a mans deeds? strange that none exist isn't? 30-90 years since death went by before anything was written about jesus...odd or purposeful?
      -
      His acts were so great and he was so holy....that NO ONE from his time wrote about him. lol Now that is quite pathetic and telling of the Great Jesus. Um the NT has a huge credibility problem...always has. ...as I said it is a bull turd wrapped in paper. There is a cult who worships the great Holy Turd

      December 26, 2012 at 1:20 pm |
    • hippypoet

      oh and chad, 90% of the professional community do not believe jesus as known in the bible ever existed asides from being part of a story. check it yourself.

      if a man who was a public figure and made waves for rome, that is possible...son of god, the historic figure from the bible – no...that is the man we are discussing! get over it...he never existed.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • Really??

      Fred
      In order to have faith, you must let go of ratiaonal and reason, otherwise youdo not have faith, and there would be no need of it.
      The real truth is that men created all gods, and all religious writings and artifacts. You have to disbelieve the truth in order to have faith.
      This is why you cannot reason with a believer...they left their reason at the door to become "believers".

      December 26, 2012 at 1:21 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Really

      Akira then Chad will resort to lines like...
      You don't seem to have understood; I am confused; Can you explain what you mean; That is not the way I understand; any ruse to avoid a direct honest answer.
      -
      He has always done that. It actually shows his lack of faith.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:22 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      hippypoet

      oh and chad, 90% of the professional community do not believe jesus as known in the bible ever existed asides from being part of a story. check it yourself.

      if a man who was a public figure and made waves for rome, that is possible...son of god, the historic figure from the bible – no...that is the man we are discussing! get over it...he never existed.

      Christ...created by his cult followers. lol

      December 26, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      From Richard Carriers blog posted Dec. 20, 2012

      "One of the many things I did when I was in England was go on a radio show that then aired in London just this last weekend (Saturday, December 15th, 2012), called Ubelievable with Justin Brierley, for Premiere Christian Radio. There, I had a cordial and informal debate with professor Mark Goodacre on the merits of the theory that Jesus didn’t exist (but is instead as mythical as Hercules or King Arthur)."

      December 26, 2012 at 1:25 pm |
    • fred

      Really??
      No, believers do not need to put their brains in the trash can in order to know that which is self-evident. It is the non believer who fits your description.
      Atheists and believers exist under the same grand mystery which is unknowable to man. Most see the same science and respect it for what it is while fully understanding the limits of science and philosophy. The Bible puts forth Gods plan for humanity and purpose for existence. It is reasonable to assume that given the attributes of God as revealed over the recorded history of man the plan as detailed is the only way to accomplish the purpose of sanctification as expressed.

      What is unreasonable is to claim no God needed without any evidence whatsoever. M Theory and other theories based on known baryonic matter only present the hope of finding causation. We both have hope as did Abraham in a promise. Exactly how is your hope any more valid or reasonable ?

      December 26, 2012 at 1:38 pm |
    • Really-O?

      "Only late in 2005 did my continued research lead me to conclude that it was very probable Jesus never actually existed as a historical person..." (http://www.richardcarrier.info/SpiritualFAQ.html#ahistoricity)

      Richard Carrier
      BA, History
      MA, Ancient history
      MPhil, Ancient history
      PhD, Ancient history (Columbia University)

      December 26, 2012 at 1:42 pm |
    • hippypoet

      fred – why do you even argue at all....i mean, haven't i alone proved you to be an idiot and useless? stupid at best and at worse continuely wrong and misleading.

      your like the belief blogs very own live in tard!

      December 26, 2012 at 1:43 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...I apologize for the unexpected strange formatting.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:44 pm |
    • Really

      Akira, Chad posted Nov 12, 2012@12:54 PM...Page 52,,,,Jesus Jokes Topic
      "I am not intrested in, nor do I think it is an effort that should be expended to defend anything other than the Judeo-Christian belief system."
      Not hard to see why the Chad has a rather narrow view of the world.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:02 pm |
    • Really??

      Fred
      You believe that which was written in a book, by men you cannot talk to or interact with in any way. To believe them is to make a leap of faith that they weren't just telling stories. In order to do that you must realease yourself from rationale and reason. Real faith cannot come until you let go of reason.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • fred

      hippypoet
      You cannot dispute the fact we both exist under the same mystery. Our minds regardless of level of intelligence will account for that mystery then govern our lives accordingly. What we know today is the opposite of what atheists have been embracing over the past 200 years. All evidence continues to establish the fact that the more we learn about our existence the greater in scope and power is the unknown. Instead of establishing “no God needed” we have established how little man knows or seems to have capacity to know that which is not of baryonic matter.
      Bottom line is you can continue to ignore the expanding unknown before you and continued lack of knowledge as to causation but at least understand where your faith rests.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:03 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Trying to use scientific terms to seem smart again? How useless. I see your new angle is not even so much an attempt at an argument, merely saying "we both live in this universe, and this universe is here, therefore god exists because I say so.". I find it amazing that you could possibly even think that you have anything relevant to say anymore fred.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:07 pm |
    • fred

      Really??
      It is reasonable to assume stories are the way man passed down important lessons. Do those stories hold true on this very day? Yes they do hold true and Gods plan as revealed in those stories has not changed. Those stories reflect the relationship between God and man over generations and the revelations of the attributes of God to the respective people and times.
      Does the Bible fulfill its intended purpose 3,400 years after being put into written form? Yes it does. The word of God reveals the heart and eternal disposition of the soul that reads the words of God to this day. Even if you wish to claim no soul, no God, no Jesus, no Abraham etc. the Word will open your heart up and expose what is within. That is the living word of God not if a serpent can talk or if the flood was global or local.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:15 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      "we both live in this universe, and this universe is here, therefore god exists because I say so."
      =>God exists or does not exist whether you believe or not will never change the reality that is before us.

      “ I find it amazing that you could possibly even think that you have anything relevant to say”
      =>it is the same story since Adam and Eve with the same relevance. Did you think truth changes over time? That is a modern thought that springs from misguided people who take biological evolution and apply it to a personal world view. That is not only unreasonable it is without evidence. In short your world view is without foundation.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:47 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Are you trying to prove yourself right by being as incoherent as possible? This is just getting sad fred. You have nothing.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
    • Really??

      Fred
      There never was an adam and eve. It is genetically impossible.
      To say Adam and eve were real is to throw out all we know about genetics and epigenetics.

      December 26, 2012 at 2:50 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      The Bible puts forth Gods plan for humanity and purpose for existence.
      .
      Fred....who wrote what you sepak of? Really Fred..................seriously? On a side note it is quite entertaining seeing you trying to use logic to argue for yoru faith. You really dont understand why there is faith....faith is for the ignorant who do not understand the world around them.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:00 pm |
    • Rollin' with Sisyphus

      "faith is for the ignorant who do not understand the world around them."

      Seems that ignorance is running wild here at the cnn boards. So many telling what isn't and so few tell what is.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:03 pm |
    • fred

      Really??
      You are in good company as C.S. Lewis also did not believe Adam and Eve were real flesh and blood people and he may have been one of the strongest Christian apologists.
      Given the attributes of God from the same author that told of Adam and Eve Moses would conclude God can form man anyway God wants. This story is not about genetics or science of course but it will trap those who believe reason is the way to find God or the understand purpose of creation. It will also trap those that think God can be defined by man (i.e. creation is constrained by created things in terms of understanding and communication, God is not created).

      The story is in the necessity of two creation stories one as to initial creation of all matter and energy and Genesis 2 Gods purpose and relationship to man. In Genesis 1 God created the universe and in Genesis 2 God made man with personal expression from that which was created. The relationship with Adam and Eve was in God and with God symbolic of created unity with creator (perfect unity when creation and creator are like images)

      December 26, 2012 at 3:20 pm |
    • Really??

      Fred
      You have forgotten one important step in your babbling. Men wrote genesis, and in it they created your god

      December 26, 2012 at 3:23 pm |
    • fred

      Christianity is a form of mental illness
      You and I can be assured that both will die. My faith is in God and your faith is in the unknown. Neither one of us can define what that is but we do the best we can given all we know is a linear existence. I see what science says and what 3,400 years of written revelation says from people much smarter than I am. What I do not see is how your leap of faith has any greater reason or evidence.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:29 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Fred and the OT was "written" when? And was not original in nature because ____predated it? I hardly give much credit to something written around 800 B.C. much creidt as the word of a god of all time. I guess we will just disgard written history and physical evidence 1000's and 1000 s and 1000 s of years prior while the tribes of Israel were scratching their nut z and still throwing rocks at each? I guess it must have been satan who came before Adam and Eve and created the civilizations and created similar versons that we came around 800 B.C. Other than naming a few cities, your OT is very little historical value. It offers more to the fantasy side of things.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:33 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      fred

      Christianity is a form of mental illness
      What I do not see is how your leap of faith has any greater reason or evidence.
      .
      You know I was talking to a person that believes in fairies, they told me the same thing when I simply told them I saw no reason to believe what they had to say. Do you take a leap of faith by not believing that Zues did and does not exist?One thing I would have liked to seen was the very last person who believed in Zues and at that moment they stopped, Zues became mythology. I can say the same for Christianity and Islam. One thing is for certain....all mythological gods had people that prayed to them and had faith. Question remains for the rational and logical, how many more thousands of years pass before christards realize the party is over and scatter? Same goes for Islam.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:43 pm |
    • fred

      Really??
      There can only be one God as if another could create God the other would be God. Man cannot create God man can only create out of that which was already created. This is why whatever gods or forms of gods man has thought of or physically created they were created out of existing thought or matter. They are idols and there is a big reason the Bible is so down on idols.
      In order to create an idol God must be reduced to a form man can comprehend and work with. All the other gods of history have this in common yet God is very different. God cannot even be imagined by man because man only knows the knowable (matter and energy of our physical world). Take a close look at those prophets that claim in the Bible to have seen an image of God and note they can only say “had the appearance of X” they do not say was X simply had the appearance of . The best we can come up with is that God is Spirit where Spirit is very open ended as to form.
      God takes the initiative to reveal himself to man as man is capable of understanding. We have a history of these revelations. There is a consistent pattern but belief is not dependent on finding pattern it is dependent on faith.
      In Christ we have a revelation as to the image of the glory of God reflected in man. Jesus is what man looks like when filled with the glory of God. Jesus is not what God looked like from a physical or known state of existence.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:45 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      If we dont blow each other up first....imagine our rate of advancement in 2000 years...5000 years...do you really think there will be mindless sheep saying Jesus is coming back! I dont lack or have faith out of fear. Apparently you worry about after you die and dedicate your life and actions to after the fact rather than the present....enjoy the ride of ignorance.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:47 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      fred

      Really??
      There can only be one God as if another could create God the other would be God. Man cannot create God man can only create out of that which was already created. This is why whatever gods or forms of gods man has thought of or physically created they were created out of existing thought or matter. They are idols and there is a big reason the Bible is so down on idols.
      In order to create an idol God must be reduced to a form man can comprehend and work with. All the other gods of history have this in common yet God is very different. God cannot even be imagined by man because man only knows the knowable (matter and energy of our physical world). Take a close look at those prophets that claim in the Bible to have seen an image of God and note they can only say “had the appearance of X” they do not say was X simply had the appearance of . The best we can come up with is that God is Spirit where Spirit is very open ended as to form.
      God takes the initiative to reveal himself to man as man is capable of understanding. We have a history of these revelations. There is a consistent pattern but belief is not dependent on finding pattern it is dependent on faith.
      In Christ we have a revelation as to the image of the glory of God reflected in man. Jesus is what man looks like when filled with the glory of God. Jesus is not what God looked like from a physical or known state of existence.
      -
      You really dont realize what you say or what you base your faith on. lol Did God tell you this? Or did you read this from man? lol

      December 26, 2012 at 3:48 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      More useless assertions from fred. Nothing else can be expected of a person who's entire faith is dependent on nothing but assertions.

      December 26, 2012 at 3:49 pm |
    • Really??

      Fred
      I stopped reading your bable at " Men cannot create God"
      Men have created many thousands of gods.
      Most are considered myth now. It is only a matter of time until your god is forgotten as a bad idea.
      Your god is omniscient, omnipotent. Why then, if as you would say that god created god in his own image, would god need eyes, mouth, pe nis, etc. (answer is simple he doesn't but men gave those traits to him becasue man has them.
      Your god is as evil as he is good, as sinful in himself as he is saintly. If he truly is all things, then he has the traits of hate and love, knowledge and ignorance...oops god in supposed to be omniscient, so how could he be all things if he is not ignorant...
      again, you do not see the logic fails

      December 26, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Looking back Fred you have to be a troll because you possibly couldnt be this delusional and unaware. ORRRRRR you raise your hand in faith on the foundation set by men who tell you to believe as you do. You are so consumed by fear you make yourself oblivious to the obvious source which you rely upon. You are sheep

      December 26, 2012 at 3:52 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      hawaiiguest

      More useless assertions from fred. Nothing else can be expected of a person who's entire faith is dependent on nothing but as sertions.
      --–
      Yep..I stopped reading most of his babble and skip over it...however I am a little bored today. lol

      December 26, 2012 at 3:54 pm |
    • fred

      Christianity is a form of mental illness
      Given that we do not know the time frame of the first Hebrews it is hard to say when they were throwing rocks. What we know is that Cain was around the time Bronze was used for tools which can be dated. If you have some works that go back 8-10,000 years I would like to hear about it otherwise no one can say where certain worship styles originated (i.e. from the Hebrew God or some other religion). Moses wrote the 5 books about 1,400 BC and if you want to run with the Babylonian 750-800 BCE version from Wikipedia that is unsupported it does not change the story. God is revealing the story not the historian. Read the Bible to understand the plan God has. You can accept the plan or reject it but I have yet to hear of a better one.
      As to Zeus go read Acts and see how Paul demonstrated the difference between this man made god and the Living God. Everything in the Bible has come to pass so you are correct in one thing……a time is coming when few if any still believe. Thanks for agreeing with the Bible on that point.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:01 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Okay lets say it was 1400 B.C. That gives it very little credibility for back to 7000 B.C. history...and what source are you using to date Cain? Oh wait there must be ruins of the Garden of Eden? Perhaps the land of Nod...maybe we can study them and detemrine how the people of Nod were already in existence before Cain??? As for Acts I could care less what a man thought was the difference in one mythical god compared to his mythical being. lol Within your circle of mythical believers...your book makes sense and is the law of all things It is your Christian World of Reality. Outside of it you are delusional. You know there isnt much difference in you guys and Trekiess...who speak the made up languages of aliens.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      LOL everything in the bible has come to pass? Really?
      So I guess that Egypt just forgot to be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzer and be left desolate for 40 years in which no man or beast would live there as prophesied in Isaiah and Ezekiel.
      Or Ezekiel predicting that Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzer and never be rebuilt, yet the campaign failed and Tyre continues to stand? Or the obvious contradiction in Isaiah predicting Tyre would only be destroyed for 70 years. Neither of those came to pass.
      Useless fred. Very useless.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:13 pm |
    • fred

      Really??
      God formed man from the dust of the earth (i.e. creature made from that which was created) in his image. The image was cognitive in nature as God is not made of known physical properties (no known body parts). As I said God is not like the other gods of man which are myth. Can you not see the difference between Zeus and God?
      Jesus was the revelation of God and there was no evil in Jesus. Jesus is the most reflective image of the glory of God that we know to date. To claim God is evil is contrary to what the writer believed. You cannot claim to have a clearer image of a character then the author who expresses that character.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:14 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      I wonder what spin fred will use.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      fred

      Really??
      God formed man from the dust of the earth (i.e. creature made from that which was created) in his image. The image was cognitive in nature as God is not made of known physical properties (no known body parts). As I said God is not like the other gods of man which are myth. Can you not see the difference between Zeus and God?
      Jesus was the revelation of God and there was no evil in Jesus. Jesus is the most reflective image of the glory of God that we know to date. To claim God is evil is contrary to what the writer believed. You cannot claim to have a clearer image of a character then the author who expresses that character.
      .
      Fred,

      You sound no different than a person in a mental ward rambling. As for your God he was very physical in the OT and was actually copied lol

      December 26, 2012 at 4:20 pm |
    • fred

      Christianity is a form of mental illness
      There is only one reality which exists regardless of what you or I claim to see or know about that reality. There is a difference between delusion and something that is visible by faith. I have met some people who tell me their baby is the most beautiful child ever. I would never say they were delusional only that beauty is understood through the lens of the beholder. The faithful simply see the world through the eyes of God. You are missing out on a great vision as the reality is the same.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:21 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Ah so fred will be using the ignore tactic.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:22 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      to that I say, if at first you don't succeed Tyre Tyre Tyre again.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      hawaiiguest

      I wonder what spin fred will use.
      ---

      As sertions from men he has faith in.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:23 pm |
    • mama k

      fred: " To claim God is evil is contrary to what the writer believed."

      What writer are you speaking of, fred\?. What was his name?

      December 26, 2012 at 4:24 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Wow. So you have absolutely nothing.

      December 26, 2012 at 4:26 pm |
    • fred

      mama k
      I am not aware of any author in the Bible that would claim God is evil. Take your pick.
      Ditto for the Tulmud, Torah

      December 26, 2012 at 4:30 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Sorry been a while since I looked at that prophecy so rather than give you some quick apologetics from on line I need to look at it when I get a chance.
      Once again you’re on real Tyre this morning !

      December 26, 2012 at 4:41 pm |
    • mama k

      Let me put this in better context for you, fred.

      You wrote: [ "Jesus was the revelation of God and there was no evil in Jesus. Jesus is the most reflective image of the glory of God that we know to date. To claim God is evil is contrary to what the writer believed. " ]

      How would one know that about Jesus, fred. Who wrote that? What was his name?

      December 26, 2012 at 4:45 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Fred,

      There is a difference between delusion and something that is visible by faith.
      .
      Delusion

      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      Jump to: navigation, search

      This article is about the psychiatric condition. For the concept in Eastern spirituality, see Delusion (spirituality). For other uses, see Delusion (film).

      "Delusionism" redirects here. For Wikipedia delusionism (also known as "inletionism"), see meta:delusionism.

      See also: Delusional disorder

      Delusion – is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
      .
      Faith – belief that is not based on proof or evidence
      .
      Uh huh...completely different *crosseyed*

      December 26, 2012 at 5:15 pm |
    • fred

      mama k
      We do not know the author of Hebrews 1-:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
      Paul is the author of Colossians 1:15:Christ the image of the invisible God
      Paul author 2 corinthians 4:4
      4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God”
      And John 14:9 Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

      December 26, 2012 at 5:42 pm |
    • fred

      mama k
      I cannot recall specific verses about Jesus being the spotless lamb of God without sin etc. All accounts of Jesus from the Bible reflect the pure goodness and innocence of Jesus. I don’t think anyone doubts Jesus was painted as good and full of peace and love.

      December 26, 2012 at 5:48 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      "We do not know the author"
      .
      Well that screams integrity.

      December 26, 2012 at 5:52 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      fred

      mama k
      I cannot recall specific verses about Jesus being the spotless lamb of God without sin etc. All accounts of Jesus from the Bible reflect the pure goodness and innocence of Jesus. I don’t think anyone doubts Jesus was painted as good and full of peace and love.
      -
      Ah yes you are talking about accounts and writings from men who never knew him. lol

      December 26, 2012 at 5:57 pm |
    • fred

      Christianity is a form of mental illness
      John was considered the apostle most close to Jesus how is that someone that did not know Jesus?
      Saul of Tarsus (Paul) spoke with the Sanhedrin that led Jesus to trial and the apostles that knew Jesus. He was a very well connected and educated man.

      December 26, 2012 at 6:13 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      fred

      Christianity is a form of mental illness
      John was considered the apostle most close to Jesus how is that someone that did not know Jesus?
      Saul of Tarsus (Paul) spoke with the Sanhedrin that led Jesus to trial and the apostles that knew Jesus. He was a very well connected and educated man.
      -
      .
      Fred, go back 20 years and write down conversations and quotes of people you conversed with. Now ask someone you know to do the same...have them tell you and you write that down. How accurate would you think it is? Part of what I do is taking statements from witnesses and invovled parties in my investigations. I can tell you the average person can barely recall what happened a month ago...and note there is a lot of fuzzy facts. There are things called red flags.....you seem to not see any due to your biases. #1 for any of the authors to recall decades conversations with Jesus and #2 People recalling what somebody else told them they saw decades after the fact is beyond unrealistic and simply put embellished bull$ hi t.

      December 26, 2012 at 6:57 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      ps meant to say recalling decades after the fact

      December 26, 2012 at 6:59 pm |
    • mama k

      No fred. I am actually not questioning Jesus' character (as much as we "know" about it). I was only asking about how we know about it. You know, name the specific people who wrote about him that had a personal relationship with him.

      December 26, 2012 at 8:56 pm |
  11. Chad

    "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -‑ on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg ‑- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." - C.S. Lewis

    December 26, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      Madman or something worse.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:32 am |
    • WASP

      @chad: umm didn't your own demi-god jesus refute being called the son of god?
      " “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” (Matthew 16:13)."

      December 26, 2012 at 11:41 am |
    • Damocles

      So it's all or nothing, eh? Jesus just couldn't have been some guy with some ideas, no, no, that would be too damn simple and easy. Let's make it all complicated so 30 of his believers will be at each others throats in 30 different unique and scary ways. Makes a lot of sense that the guy and the guy's deity couldn't forsee just about every believer coming up with their own interpretation of its supposed word. But hey, when you are all powerful and all knowing you can't be expected to know everything. The beauty of it all is that your followers give you pass after pass after pass on how a deity can be so deaf, dumb and blind and still be responsible for the creation of all things... excpet of course all those things they don't agree with. Awesome.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:47 am |
    • Chad

      lunatic or Son of God.
      All or nothing.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:05 pm |
    • Damocles

      Awwww why didn't you capatalize lunatic? If you say Lunatic, it looks so much more important. The Lunatic of lunatics. A lunatic's Lunatic.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
    • Chuckles

      I'm going with lunatic or something worse.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:11 pm |
    • OTOH

      Chad
      "lunatic or Son of God.
      All or nothing."

      Legend - springing from a charismatic traveling preacher.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:12 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Um it is quite obvious Jesus was a homse xual, delusional, and quite mad. If Jesus had been alive in our lifetime he would have led the Jim Jones colony to their mass suicide.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:15 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Common Christians apologist tactic.....break down the argument to a false dicotomy and then refute the position they don't like, leaving their argument as if it is the only one left.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:24 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Lewis doesn't really explain why Jesus couldn't be a teacher and not the son of god, so given the choices I'll vote for lunatic.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:25 pm |
    • Chad

      "why cant Jesus be just a teacher", "arent Christians creating a false dichotomy"

      the only way to accomplish that is by re-writing the accounts of Jesus that we have, in which case you are just creating your own version of Jesus, one that agrees with that which you want Him to be.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:37 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Explain why that requires rewriting what little we know about Jesus. Lewis never explains why Jesus could be a teacher and yet not the son of god. So that becomes a false choice.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:46 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      The Jesus story is nothing if not re-written, over and over. It changes and is embellished, the progression of the gospels show that.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:49 pm |
    • Chad

      @In Santa we trust "Explain why that requires rewriting what little we know about Jesus. Lewis never explains why Jesus could be a teacher and yet not the son of god. So that becomes a false choice."
      @Chad "well, to understand that you would have to be familiar with the New Testament. I realize that as an atheist you see that as unnecessary (why bother reading the bible, you already know the God of Israel doesnt exist, right?), however, to understand Lewis' point it is required."

      =======
      @Cheesemakers "The Jesus story is nothing if not re-written, over and over. It changes and is embellished, the progression of the gospels show that."
      @Chad ":-)
      provide a single case of re-writing that occurs in any of the Gospels :-)

      December 26, 2012 at 1:00 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Another option that Christians ignore and one of the most likely....Legend.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      NT =bull turd aka BS wrapped in paper.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:02 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Chad's faith is quite simple...it is in so and so said.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:13 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      The gospels are the re-written accounts including the gnostic gospels, none of them were written first hand,

      December 26, 2012 at 1:18 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

      Chad thought process.(throw out all rational thought)...I have faith in the men who never saw or knew Jesus and wrote about what he said and did.ITS REAL! lol

      December 26, 2012 at 1:34 pm |
    • sam stone

      Chard: Lunatic.

      December 26, 2012 at 1:51 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Chad is no lunatic. He is illustrating the widely accepted argument against the "Jesus was good man" fallacy. Lewis points out that by using nothing more that Jesus' own words (which are found in the NT) that Jesus must be found either divine or insane. No "good man" would go around saying the things that Jesus is reported to have said. So, he must be accepted by his claim as "One with the Father" or dismissed as a lunatic. The ones who dismiss him as lunatic are at least consistent with what Jesus said about himself, while those who cling to the lukewarm claim that "He was a wise teacher" are hedging their bets without benefit of any intellectual integrity

      December 26, 2012 at 4:02 pm |
    • Chad

      @Cheesemakers "The Jesus story is nothing if not re-written, over and over. It changes and is embellished, the progression of the gospels show that."

      @Chad ":-)
      provide a single case of re-writing that occurs in any of the Gospels

      Cheesemakers "The gospels are the re-written accounts including the gnostic gospels, none of them were written first hand,"

      @Chad "sorry, I guess you thought that I asked you to re-state what you had already said..
      what I actually asked was for you to provide an example of a single case of re-writing that occurs in any of the Gospels. I'll try to be clearer in the future..

      December 26, 2012 at 5:21 pm |
    • Surprise

      Bill Deacon
      Glad it wasn't you. Read a story about some Deacon named William, Bill for short, that was arrested for one of the RCC's favorites, child po*rn. Never seems to stop with your lot, the good Christians, LOL.

      December 26, 2012 at 5:41 pm |
  12. $$$$$$$$$$

    Go_d is what is in your bank account !!!

    December 26, 2012 at 10:39 am |
    • christ_child1991

      well if that is how you feel then Brian"Head"Welch was talking about then in his song money hey maybe you should listen to it it is good he is the former guitarist of korn if you didnt already know that

      December 26, 2012 at 11:06 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Brian Welch went crazy and found god. Funny how crazy people always seem to find him.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:08 am |
    • christ_child1991

      Brian Welch did not go crazy and he did not find GOD GOD found him God calls everyone to be his children and you have to accept so therefore GOD found him my point proven and I pray that whoever you are you find the truth

      December 26, 2012 at 11:13 am |
    • $$$$$$$$$$$$

      Heard/read somewhere $$$$$$$$$ and sceince is the truth if you want to believe it or not.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:27 am |
  13. Christianity is a form of mental illness- FACT

    Christians equal cult to rational people of sound minds.

    December 26, 2012 at 10:25 am |
  14. Mohammad A Dar

    Truth about Jesus is he roamed the earth like any other holy men.........in those days people called them GOD, they never performed miracles, but people thought they did, some worshiped them out of love and some worshiped them out of fear to go to HELL

    December 26, 2012 at 9:54 am |
    • Really??

      The real truth is that there are no holy men. All religions are false, so nothing and no one is holy.

      December 26, 2012 at 10:41 am |
  15. petemg

    Christ Jesus came to the Earth as a man. It does not matter when He came but the fact that He came to Earth, to live to perform miracles, to die for us so that He could be resurrected. Jesus came to Earth to be the sacrificial Lamb. All any of us need is faith that it happened and that God is in control. If He were born in a stable or an in or whatever, people in the Biblical time did not have modern things we have now. People were probably able to live in frigid conditions and without much food because the people had to because the government robbed from them via taxation. Now we have a government who wants to have total control over people's life so that the government can be known as a messiah. The only true Messiah is Jesus Christ our Lord. Praying that people's eyes will be opened to the facts in our country. And this is my opinion.

    December 26, 2012 at 9:48 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      "All any of us need is faith that it happened"

      No, smart people need evidence.

      December 26, 2012 at 10:06 am |
    • sam stone

      petemg: calling it a fact doesn't make it so

      December 26, 2012 at 10:18 am |
    • sam stone

      "People were probably able to live in frigid conditions and without much food because the people had to because the government robbed from them via taxation"

      Seriously? What do you know of the tax policies of the Romans?

      December 26, 2012 at 10:20 am |
    • Which God?

      petemg. Deluded. You managed to swallow the whole xtian myth, hook,line and sinker. Jesus wasn't a real person. Pontius Pilates records are extant. The Romans kept excellent records, and as an "administrator," so did Pilate. He doesn't mention this guy, nor his so-called crucifiction. The story is fabricated, and you bought into it. Sad that you are so weak-minded that you "need to believe" in a fairy-tale, that 'faith" takes the place of reasoning.

      December 26, 2012 at 10:38 am |
    • christ_child1991

      @petemg
      Amen I totally agree and back that statement 150%.

      December 26, 2012 at 10:53 am |
    • Brother Maynard

      "All any of us need is faith that it happened"
      I don't have faith ... therefore it didn't happen

      December 26, 2012 at 11:00 am |
    • tallulah13

      Pete: You want people to believe what you say, but there is absolutely no reason to do so. Please provide proof of your god, and failing that (because no one has ever succeeded in proving the existence of god), please provide proof of your great governmental conspiracy. Otherwise, you're just barking at the moon and pretending that your delusion is fact.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:02 am |
    • christ_child1991

      @Brother Maynard
      Well just because you have faith it didnt happen doesnt mean it didnt so what if it did happen do you know where you will go

      December 26, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • Which God?

      @cc1991. Ahh the old xtian fallback. Threats of eternal da.mnation. So funny, but it is so pathetic as well.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:13 am |
    • Russells Teapot

      It's hardly a sacrifice when you know your death isn't permanent...

      December 26, 2012 at 11:40 am |
    • Brother Maynard

      Christians do not believe in Christianity because it is true. To them Christianity is true because they believe it

      December 26, 2012 at 11:54 am |
    • sam stone

      christ_child: nothing greater than 100%. apparently logic is not the only thing you fail to grasp

      December 26, 2012 at 1:58 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Well just because you have faith it didnt happen doesnt mean it didnt so what if it did happen do you know where you will go"

      Just because you have faith that it did happen doesn't mean it did.

      Fvck you and your empty proxy threats

      December 26, 2012 at 2:00 pm |
  16. Happy

    Read somewhere the popoe debunked the MYTH or was it just for ANGELS ???

    December 26, 2012 at 7:56 am |
  17. WASP

    i can guarantee there was a man named jesus that was born in nazareth whom grew up to be a carpenter................................................the other magical stuff he so called did is just a fabrication.

    first question: if he was born in a barn during the winter wouldn't he have almost froze to death?
    second question: if he was born in a barn, did they understand to close the door? lmfao.

    December 26, 2012 at 7:15 am |
    • christ_child1991

      Hello again WASP and jesus was born in a manger and laid down on hay and the definition of a manger is, A manger, "[i]s a feeding-trough, crib, or open box in a stable designed to hold fodder for livestock."so therefore he was not born in a barn get your story straight

      December 26, 2012 at 10:57 am |
    • WASP

      @child: i do have YOUR STORY STRAIGHT; the last time i checked a barn/stables were where you kept live stock and feed for those animals.........................so yes your demi-god was born in a BARN. lmfao
      thanks for the mourning laugh your type of christian is always good for one.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:31 am |
    • Get Real

      child,

      So, you're saying that Mary climbed into a feeding trough to give birth?

      And a stable IS a barn for livestock.

      WASP,

      This thing probably didn't happen in winter, but even so, Israel has a Mediterranean climate and while pretty chilly at night, it rarely freezes.

      The whole story is just legend anyway, but at least get facts straight.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:46 am |
    • christ_child1991

      ok a stable and a barn are two different things and where do you get that it happened during winter

      December 26, 2012 at 12:21 pm |
    • christ_child1991

      Here is proof that he was not born during the winter time and this is historical. How do we know that Jesus was not born in the Winter? Luke 2:8 speaks about the shepherds near Bethlehem who were in the fields, watching their flocks at night. Shepherds in that region did not keep their sheep out at night during the Winter because it was cold and sometimes even snowy, but they did keep them in the fields during the Fall, after the end-of-Summer harvest.so be quiet with the whole he should have froze deal

      December 26, 2012 at 12:28 pm |
    • Deal

      christ_child1991,

      Ok, we'll quit the "he should have froze" deal if you quit with the "he was "God" deal.

      December 26, 2012 at 12:35 pm |
    • christ_child1991

      @Deal
      Deal or no deal i choose No Deal

      December 26, 2012 at 1:01 pm |
    • WASP

      @CHILD: now everyone give child a pa on the back for making a breakthrough.
      it finally figured out that december isn't the birth month of jesus because december is in the winter and jesus wasn't born in the winter....................see there is one of the lovely little lies the church encourages you folks to believe in.

      to me a barn/stable are different parts of the same building, seeing our barn and stable was connected making feeding the animals during winter easier, but you are a child.

      i have a question child; do you play with other children of the corn? lol

      December 26, 2012 at 1:33 pm |
    • christ_child1991

      I celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ everyday and the church adopted the dec 25 date to get the pagans to turn to christianity and for the "now everyone give child a pa on the back for making a breakthrough.
      it finally figured out that december isn't the birth month of jesus because december is in the winter and jesus wasn't born in the winter"remark I never agreed with Jesus being born in dec because like I said I celebrate his birth everyday but it is the set day to celebrate but make the remarks that you will against me for the bible tells me that I will be hated in Jesus' name sake

      December 26, 2012 at 2:06 pm |
  18. Reality

    From the topic's commentary:

    "All Christian thinking is, however, about resurrection."

    And now for some 21st century rationality- (only for the new members of this blog)

    Saving Christians from the Infamous Resurrection Con/

    From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

    Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.

    To wit;

    From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:

    "Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
    Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.

    Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

    Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.

    The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

    Only Luke records it. (Luke mentions it in his gospel and Acts, i.e. a single attestation and therefore historically untenable). The Ascension ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers.

    The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "

    "In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
    http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

    The Vatican quickly embellished this story with a lot CYAP.

    With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:

    An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

    p.4

    "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

    p.168. by Ted Peters:

    Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "

    So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.

    December 26, 2012 at 6:16 am |
  19. niknak

    That name is not mentioned in my house, except when my brother brought over some Norweigan moonshine and we all had a swig and said "jeebus christ that's strong!"
    So happy I can enjoy kickin it with my family and friends for the holidays and not have to be saddled with the stupid myth.
    Hey fundies, how much time did you waste on your knees receiting your magic spells yesterday?

    December 26, 2012 at 5:41 am |
    • Observer

      0.16 seconds. And it was my time to waste as I saw fit.

      December 26, 2012 at 7:26 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Sounds like you were the one who was wasted

      December 26, 2012 at 10:56 am |
    • christ_child1991

      I didnt spend anytime on my knees saying "magic spells" yesterday because I prayed standing up yesterday and some where sitting down and yes I "wasted my time" but like observer said "it was my time to waste as I saw fit." and I enjoyed it.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:04 am |
    • Which God?

      Sorry, BD, you are the one whos is wasted, mentally. You have seriuos delusions of your sky-fairy being real. It's not. You have no proof,. Quoting from a book of myth give you no creedence either. Your 'faith' is nothing more than a belief in something that was told to you, which you choose to accept. It is all on you, and you have been decieved. No, goD, no satan, no "holy babble." Myths, fairy-tales, make belirve stories. nothing more.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:09 am |
    • Which God?

      sorry for typos. Who's

      December 26, 2012 at 11:10 am |
    • christ_child1991

      @WhichGod
      How do you know GOD or Satan is not real because they are both real and you will find out

      December 26, 2012 at 11:16 am |
    • WASP

      @CHILD: ooooooh, the threat of "you will find out."
      so scary. ROFLMFAO.
      seriously doubt your act of being a christian will fool your god; yes i said act because you are only a believer because you fear death.
      if you require the threat of "eternal punishment" to believe in something you are both a pawn and a child, thus your screen name fits you.

      December 26, 2012 at 11:29 am |
    • Damocles

      @christ's lovechild

      Oh you poor poor fool! One glorious day The Divine Felines, Cat and Proxy Cat, shall make themselves known to you, but will you listen to their humbling purrs? NO! Foolish, vain person that you are, you will ignore their furry tidings and be sent with your tail between your legs to the Litterbox of Damnation (duh duh duhhhhh)! I beg that you turn away from your pridefulness before it is too late!

      December 26, 2012 at 11:59 am |
  20. Good grief

    *facepalm*

    December 26, 2012 at 5:11 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.