Editor's Note: Tanya Marie (“T.M.”) Luhrmann is a psychological anthropologist and the Watkins University professor in the department of anthropology at Stanford University in Stanford, California. She is the author of "When God Talks Back: Understanding the American Evangelical Relationship with God."
By T.M. Luhrmann, Special to CNN
(CNN)—In the Bible, God spoke directly to Abraham. He spoke directly to Moses. He spoke directly to Job. But to your neighbor down the street?
Most people reading the ancient scriptures understand these accounts of hearing God’s voice as miracles that really did happen but no longer take place today, or maybe as folkloric flourishes to ancient stories. Even Christians who believe that miracles can be an everyday affair can hesitate when someone tells them they heard God speak audibly. There’s an old joke: When you talk to God, we call it prayer, but when God talks to you, we call it schizophrenia.
Except that usually it’s not.
Hearing a voice when alone, or seeing something no one else can see, is pretty common. At least one in 10 people will say they’ve had such an experience if you ask them bluntly. About four in 10 say they have unusual perceptual experiences between sleep and awareness if you interview them about their sleeping habits.
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And if you ask them in a way that allows them to admit they made a mistake, the rate climbs even higher. By contrast, schizophrenia, the most debilitating of all mental disorders, is pretty rare. Only about one in 100 people can be diagnosed with the disorder.
Moreover, the patterns are quite distinct. People with schizophrenia who hear voices hear them frequently. They often hear them throughout the day, sometimes like a rain of sound, or a relentless hammer. They hear not only sentences, but paragraphs: words upon words upon words. What the voices say is horrid—insults, sneers and contemptuous jibes. “Dirty. You’re dirty.” “Stupid slut.” “You should’ve gone under the bus, not into it.”
That was not what Abraham, Moses and Job experienced, even when God was at his most fierce.
For the last 10 years, I have been doing anthropological and psychological research among experientially oriented evangelicals, the sort of people who seek a personal relationship with God and who expect that God will talk back. For most of them, most of the time, God talks back in a quiet voice they hear inside their minds, or through images that come to mind during prayer. But many of them also reported sensory experiences of God. They say God touched their shoulder, or that he spoke up from the back seat and said, in a way they heard with their ears, that he loved them. Indeed, in 1999, Gallup reported that 23% of all Americans had heard a voice or seen a vision in response to prayer.
These experiences were brief: at the most, a few words or short sentences. They were rare. Those who reported them reported no more than a few of them, if that. These experiences were not distressing, although they were often disconcerting and always startling. On the contrary, these experiences often made people feel more intimate with God, and more deeply loved.
In fact, my research has found that these unusual sensory experiences are more common among those who pray in a way that uses the imagination—for example, when prayer involves talking to God in your mind. The unusual sensory experiences were not, in general, associated with mental illness (we checked).
They were more common among those who felt comfortable getting caught up in their imaginations. They were also more common among those who prayed for longer periods. Prayer involves paying attention to words and images in the mind, and giving them significance. There is something about the skilled practice of paying attention to the mind in this way that shifts—just a little bit—the way we judge what is real.
Yet even many of these Christians, who wanted so badly to have a back-and-forth relationship with God, were a little hesitant to talk about hearing God speak with their ears. For all the biblical examples of hearing God speak audibly, they doubt. Augustine reports that when he was in extremis, sobbing at the foot of that fig tree, he heard a voice say, “Take it and read.” He picked up the scripture and converted. When the Christians I know heard God speak audibly, it often flitted across their minds that they were crazy.
In his new book, "Hallucinations," the noted neurologist Oliver Sacks tells his own story about a hallucinatory experience that changed his life. He took a hearty dose of methamphetamines as a young doctor, and settled down with a 19th century book on migraines. He loved the book, with its detailed observation and its humanity. He wanted more. As he was casting around in his mind for someone who could write more that he could read, a loud internal voice told him “You silly bugger” that it was he. So he began to write. He never took drugs again.
Now, Sacks does not recommend that anyone take drugs like that. He thinks that what he did was dangerous and he thinks he was lucky to have survived.
What interests me, however, is that he allowed himself to trust the voice because the voice was good. There’s a distinction between voices associated with psychiatric illness (often bad) and those (often good) that are found in the so-called normal population. There’s another distinction between those who choose to listen to a voice, if the advice it gives is good, and those who do not. When people like Sacks hear a voice that gives them good advice, the experience can transform them.
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This is important, because often, when voices are discussed in the media or around the kitchen table, the voices are treated unequivocally as symptoms of madness. And of course, voice-hearing is associated with psychiatric illness.
But not all the time. In fact, not most of the time.
About a third of the people I interviewed carefully at the church where I did research reported an unusual sensory experience they associated with God. While they found these experiences startling, they also found them deeply reassuring.
Science cannot tell us whether God generated the voice that Abraham or Augustine heard. But it can tell us that many of these events are normal, part of the fabric of human perception. History tells us that those experiences enable people to choose paths they should choose, but for various reasons they hesitate to choose.
When the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. sat at his kitchen table, in the winter of 1956, terrified by the fear of what might happen to him and his family during the Montgomery bus boycott, he said he heard the voice of Jesus promising, “I will be with you.” He went forward.
Voices may form part of human suffering. They also may inspire human greatness.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of TM Luhrmann.
لا إله الا الله محمد رسول الله
لا إله الا الله وحده لا شريك له
From my heart
and from my brain
without any importance of who I am
but this is a few words I wrote it for you :)
I guarantee for you
if you just consider my these words and just take a three days to think about it
so I guarantee for you
that you will get a true happy life
which has the true calmness and make you the best one as ever hope
There is only one god
he bring us to live this life just few years to worship him maybe 20 years or 50 , 70 , 90 , however......and then we die
after dying there will be a new life which will never end and that is the real life
in the last life people will divide into 2 groups
one will go to Paradise
and one will go to the hill
so this life is as the station where you make your way direction
will you make it to the paradise ?
or to the hill?
finally i will ask you just to search a bout somethings
The true that the real god is Allah and that he is the only god........just search in the internet or in your heart !
if you believe this fact
search about who is Allah ? here you will feel the strongest feeling at your life
whatever you consider my words or not
nobody will tell you that a gain
just take a 3 days to search and choose the right direction
Some believe that celibacy is appropriate for certain people, or for certain positions. It's ridiculous. Celibacy is unnatural and will continue to cause problems for the religious institutions that employ it.
Many of the people from these same institutions advocate against abortion, but don't understand the realistic benefit of the morning after pill or even basic contraception; their unrealistic wishful thinking is causing the death of many at the hands of disease. Realistically, many abortions could be avoided if a morning-after pill would not is not viewed as such an evil option. Many of these same people bring children into the world at a high pace, and then would prefer that the rest of society take over and educate their children in their particular brand of religion when they don't plan well and don't want to violate their silly beliefs.
Recently we learned of the head of LCMS chastising a minister of that church for participating in a joint service for the victims of the Newtown school shooting.
One sect calls homosexuality an abomination while the next one in the same denomination is already performing gay marriage.
One sect, the Westboro Baptist Church believes Americans are being killed at war because America is too kind to "fags".
One sect believes that Jesus and Satan were brothers and that Christ will return to Jerusalem AND Jackson County, Missouri.
On sect believes women to be subservient, while another sect in the same denomination promotes equality between the sexes.
Conflicted right from the very beginning, Christianity continues to splinter and create divisions and more extremism as it goes.
Has anything improved with Christianity since 200+ years ago?
Thomas Jefferson, POTUS #3 (from Notes on the State of Virginia):
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
James Madison, POTUS #4, chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & the Bill of Rights (from A Memorial and Remonstrance delivered to the Virginia General Assembly in 1785):
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
John Adams, POTUS #2 (in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, 09/03/1816):
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.
Ben Franklin (from a letter to The London Packet, 3 June 1772):
If we look back into history for the character of present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practised it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England, blamed persecution in the Roman church, but practised it against the Puritans: these found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England.
Thomas Paine (from The Age of Reason):
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
God or rather Yahweh for clarity, is talking to people all the way through the bible. Hello !
Read Counceled by God by Virkler. for an explanitation for all the stuff going through YOUR HEAD !You didn't really think all of the stuff ( voices you hear in your head) was from You did You ?
The bible teaches that there are many voices in this world and none without signafication. That goes to signature. The " voice " will put it's signature on what they are saying. The accuser of the brethren, accuses Us. The spirit of suicide tries to get us to kill ourselves. The angel of light is a name for the devil. a Holy Spirit counterfit, it will quote scripture to you and yet wants you to beat someone with it. The BBC has an article on hearing voices and their article is the only one I have found the says that this is NORMAL ! ( google ,hearing voices )
God is speaking to everyone and everyone has already heard what He said and it is easy to prove. BobScott8888@yahoo.com YOU be the witness, YOU be the judge !
Read Counceled by God by Virkler and get back to me. The instructions for the book are. Sit down and read the book straight through. Meditate on what you have read, look up the scriptures fort yourself. Skip a day and study on it and repeat. Read straight through and meditate on it and skip a day ane repeat. What YOU did not get tyhe first Two times , Yahweh will clear it up by the third reading.. Give me 40 hours during a week and I call it giving someone a leg up an their horse Isa. 31-3.. What You did not understand Him saying to You the first times , Her will clear up by the third.
God spoke to Jerimiah in the womb and He is not a respector of persons.Listen to the pronouns in your head, If You are thinking it , You would think, I am going to do this or that. If someone else was talking to You, they would say You do this or that. We are to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ..1Cor. 10-3,5 . Hear Yahweh's voive and Obey !. Jer. 7 & 9.
I was an athiest when God started talking to me, crazy that's all. Ha Ha ! Well this went on for four years before I believed God really talked to people today. He answered ALL of my questions and dispelled ALL of my doubts and there was no longer a reason Not to Believe.
There was a shift in the matrix and I went into a trans or vision state for 5 days the first time. Yahweh explained everything He had told me in parables, ( war stories and cowboy and Indian stories) and explained them to me Face to Face after I believed.. ( when I read the sermon on the Mt. I was standing on a sand bar next to John when he called out the LAMB of GOD, I saw the Holy Spirit decend as a dove would decend and covered YAHSHUA and went inside of Him. There was no actual dove.Now I teach on hearing Yahweh's voice for ones self. The bible beeters say the we DON'T HAVE A RED PHONE TO HEAVEN !
Their full of it . religious spirits,,,traditions of men.
Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word. Word here is the Holy Spirit. Faith comes by hearing the Holy Spirit talking to YOU PERSONALLY ! MIXED WITH FAITH = God spoke to YOU first and then put someone in front of you to say the SAME THING , WORD FOR WORD to let You know that you heard correctly. Now every evil spirit out there can talk to you also and give you visions etc. Just like Jesus being tempted in the desert by the devil. discerning between Your voice and God's voice and the others is the training. You need to know the bible to compare the " other words" with the scripture. The Holy Spirit will ONLY testify of JESUS ! In Yogoslavia people would be killed for going to church or a bible study,,,they would get the word on the location 30 minutes before the bible study from the Holy Spirit and congregate. Most of the churches on the corner don't have a clue. Three points and a poem is all they are interested in,
Yahweh is teaching the remnant personally. The Father the Word and the Holy Spirit agree in one in heaven as the Spirit the Water and the Blood agree as one in the earth, this is Wheel within a WHEEL thing. Washed by the WATER of the Word.this is a soul relm thing and blood is the natural relm. OUR SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY agree in one in the earth.
Cleans YOURSELF of all filthyness of the spirit and the flesh. spirit here is worldly spiritual strongholds in Your mind.
AS LONG AS THE HEIR REMAINS A CHILD, THEY DIFFER NOTHING FROM A SERVANT, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE LORD OF ALL ! Well Lord, it's time to GROW UP !
THE WAY TO GET SILENCE IN YOUR MIND IS TO SING PRAISES, GOD INHABITS OUT PRAISE, the demons can't stand it and go away, ( just like David playing the harp for Saul )Now you can hear God better. SILENCE THE NEGATIVE VOICES IS THE WAY TO START. Heb. 11 the so called faith chapter,,,everyone of those guys, HEARD YAHWEH'S VOIVE AND OBEYED ! God counted it to them for righteousness. Want to be righteous,perfect in the eyes of God ,,HEAR GOS'S VOICE AND OBEY!
DEMONSTRAIGHT ,the first five letters here are DEMON , a person being activated by demons in demonstraighting ! " Familiar spirits " are the ones that you had and now are on the outside talking crap. So familiar that you might notice that their back, until they bite you.
Faith or Fear are the choices. Yahweh says , HAVE NO FEAR ! Go Forward with God !
Remember the weapons of OUR WAREFARE ARE NOT CARNAL BUT SPIRIT !
When I first believed, the Holy Spirit told me to call in Fire on my own position,
In the Marines that meant call in artillery fire on your own position because the enemy has over run your position. Chances are slim and none. Slim if you do and none if you don’t
Call down the Firey Presence of God in prsyer, He will inhabit our prases and the demons will flee. Just like David playing the harp for Saul.
( want to test it, put some sweet praise music on a boom box at a low level at your next bible study and see Who can’tstand it and want it OFF for any reason. )
When we are born again the Holy Spirit comes into us and the demons flee. They are on the outside now but still active. Familiar spirits are the ones that WE used to have. So fimiliar that You don’t notice when they are back talking trash to Youi. They get more subtle the more you get on to them.
Pauls thorn in the flesh was a MESSENGER OF satan TO BUFFET HIM !
GRACE or POWER will see you through. The Power to both will and do the Father’s will.
CALL DOWN FIRE ON YOUR OWN POSSITION !
I enjoyed that thanks I will consider it. Keep on you are right on in what you say.
You're just desperate for attention, aren't you, troll?
I am sure that when Moses, Noah,Enoch,David,Saul,Job, just to name a few heard God, it was a experience that changed their lives forever. We know some of the stories these great men accomplished. But it was because when they heard God they acted and moved on what He said. When we have such a better covenant or promises than these men had why would we think that God would not want to talk to us. The more important question is why would we not seek Him? We have witnesses of how He speaks in both the New and Old Testament so how is it that we even consider this strange? Seek a relationship with God today and hear what He says not only about you but about your situation. Allow Him to change them for you or guide you through the many decisions that it will take to get through them. He is faithful and has all the knowledge and power, knows the beginning from the end and loves you with a everlasting love. Seek and you will find knock and I will answer and come in and eat with you. Want to accomplish great things then listen to God.
Bob – How many other religions have you "sought" in the same manner you suggest others should seek yours?
hate to break it to you bob, but if you hear gods speak audibly, it's not gods.. it's you.
knowing what we do about mental illness coupled with the fact that there are no gods... it's safe to say that if moses or abraham (if they did exist) or any other prophet claimed to hear gods audibly – they were most likely suffering from schizophrenia.
judging from your posts – it's reasonable to suspect you're mentally ill as well.
you and those like you are retarding the rest of humanity.
Its not a fact that God does not exsist. That is an opinion based statement. There is no proof that God is not real and I welcome your hard evidence as proof of your theories.
chet, the assertions god doesn't exist will likely stop when once you provide empirical evidence he does indeed exist. get cracking! Until then, your god and your jesus never existed. Sorry for your luck!
Since you have no idea of who Jesus is and what Christianity is really about let me explain a few things in response to how many religions have I sought. I never sought any religion I thought they were all a waste of time. I didn't need them nor want them it was only after I wanted to find out who God really is that I became interested in finding out about other religions. Religion is mans way to worship God but it really doesn't have anything to do with who God really is and what He expects or wants from us. If you need religion then you sure have a assortment but I would say why not find out if there is really someone called God and I mean the I AM the one and only, otherwise why not take a stone and call that God. First out of all the books and religions there is only Christians, satanism and Muslims that holds that the author of that faith is still alive.Next the only one that is loving is Christianity and finally the only book that tells the end from the beginning is Christianity. The Koran references the Bible so many times and the god of the Muslims is pretty vengeful and does not speak nor help his worshipers. I don't need that no one actually needs that and the atheists have some valid points when addressing these religions. But a relationship with Christ is much different, He does talk to us, He is loving , He does heal, is always relevant to the moment answers prayer and helps and protects those who come to Him. I felt one day in my heart the pull to go to church and I did about 4 times in two months. After that I had some things happen in my life that I couldn't go. 'But one day I found myself questioning who this God really was. So I picked up a Bible and started to read and what I found was more than amazing. I read to find out who God was and if He was real and what were the rules for both of us. What I found was the history of the world, a loving God a helper and someone who is not religious at all. He is patient kind thoughtful and powerful. I cant say enough good things about Him. I continued to look at other religions world events both past and present and found references for them in the Bible. So I have taken the time to find out who God is and other religions. God has lovingly proved Himself time and time again with demonstrations of words of wisdom, healing, peace and speaking to me. So that is why I know God and He is real alive and willing to help those that call on His name with a sincere heart. I have never been disappointed with Him and my joy and hope is in Him but not in religion. So while I understand the inconsistencies in those that express a religion and atheists see these inconsistencies it does not reflect a true relationship with God.
You, like many Christians, seem to assume that anyone who isn't Christian just needs to read the Bible and everything will be revealed to them and they'll come to their senses. What you don't seem to understand is that plenty of non-Christians have read the Bible (myself included) and simply find nothing in it that is persuasive or compelling.
Imagine your reaction if you were to read some Hindu texts, for example, and that's the same sort of reaction plenty of people have when reading the Bible.
So yes, I do know about Jesus Christ and Christianity, it's just that like most of the world, I simply don't find it believable.
Oh look, Bob's here with his constant moronic assertions. Poor little fundie is so arrogant he thinks anyone that reads the bible will instantly agree with his bullshit.
I have read the Bible without the intent of finding who God is and I admit it is not very interesting. I thought that you would have understood that by my above post. I have read other books and find them interesting from a informational stand point but that is about it. So I know both sides. What I am saying what was the intent on reading the Bible? Was it for research or school or maybe for refuting Christians or maybe you had to, but did you read it with the intent of finding out who God is to you? That is what it took for me. If you don't get it or feel its not for you then it may not be or may not be at this time that is also possible. Many times I was approached by Christians before I became one and didn't get the message and didn't want to hear it, it was in my own time. Unlike Hawaii though I was not offended nor insecure enough to be insulted in thinking that in trying to evangelize that they where claiming superiority or exclusivity that is just plain insecurity and being ignorant.
Bob – I'm sure you understand that the experience you're describing is not unique to the Bible and to Christianity. I'd be interested to hear your explanation for that.
have you met moses? is there proof of god other than your Bible? didnt think so. the theory of evolution IS real. possibly us evolving from monkeys may not be true, but you cant go around saying christians are the only people who are right
there are many, many, many, religions and you just middle fingered them in the face
Classic case of confirmation bias. I have to believe before believing will make any sense... the bible is true because it says it is...
I dunno, hearing voices that nobody else can hear sounds pretty crazy to me.
The author takes a Christian-centered perspective, but other religions must also have followers who hear voices they are certain are from their gods. So either there are a bunch of different gods talking to people or, more likely, there are a bunch of delusional people.
or they are demons ;)
like the bible talks about.
You could read about Jesus in the bible.
The truth in it is only not believable if you suppress it.
It could be a real eye opener. Jesus wants us to turn from our sins to him. Then He can give us aid.
I don't hear audible voices. Jesus speaks to the heart. Right and wrong are not relative;one is good the other is bad. I am a sinner, and God is perfect. He doesn't need me, I need Him.
There is a popular video on you tube that you might like on youtub. It's called "Why I hate Religion, but Love Jesus Christ". Check it out. If life is supper short on earth you might want to look into this.
ArthurD – I've read the Bible. A lot of it was a chore, some was interesting and enjoyable, none of it merited being taken seriously.
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God. 1Jo_3:1,1Jo_3:2 What a privilege to be called sons of the Most High God. It brings with it rights, privileges and a relationship that are always there for us. Keep seeking and spending time with God listen to Him and let Him guide you in the decisions in life. He will restore when times are bad, strengthen in times of need, and guide you in decisions that need to be done.
Earth’s timeline works better than the bibles
Trace our planet's geological and biological ages
I heard something once. It wasn't God, and it wasn't good. I can only hope it wasn't there.
1Co_2:10 But it was to us that God made known his secret by means of his Spirit. The Spirit searches everything, even the hidden depths of God's purposes.
1Co_8:3 But the person who loves God is known by him.
We are not crazy but gifted chosen and blessed amen. It is by Gods spirit He lets us know the things we need to know. What a wonderful way God reveals Himself to those who love Him.
Uh, just like those priests "revealing themselves" to kids. Sick people, sick religion.
Other Bob, since you are dumping bible bile on us from your Christian book of nasty again, let's take a look at what that awful book really has your horrid sky fairy demanding of stupid gullible sheeple like you. Fine stuff like this, from both OT and NT:
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
Thats what I really find most distasteful about atheists they dont know the Bible take any quote they can and try to prove what a terrible person that God really is. In this one example that is typical of all the examples that this moron evil Bob has picked the children of Israel and the world are seduced to commit terrible acts by Jezebel a evil spirit that persuades those who agree with her to commit terrible acts to distort the natural way relationships are formed. Uses manipulation and lies to control men or women and plots and plans to destroy people. This is the offspring of Jezebel that the Lord is speaking of, the very same spirit that was used to cause rebellion in Israel and is still in the world today.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which search the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
If you notice the last line give according to your works its our decision that makes or breaks us not Gods. He set the rules we decide if we are going to live by them. God loves us we do have the ability to decide what we are going to do in life and which way we will turn but God even if we pick the wrong way is still willing to take us back and will pay back to all those who hurt His children. Even Israel with their unfaithfulness He never pushed them aside even till this day.
Bob (#1) – "He set the rules we decide if we are going to live by them". So how many of the rules Bob #2 found in your bible (you know, the rules you chose not to address) have you been following? Also, you can't have it both ways–you can't be both "chosen" and also make your own decision.
John I would like to know the rules you are referring to, don't be afraid we can talk freely.
Bob#1 – You know, the ones like Bob#2 pointed out that say to kill family members or friends who don't worship your god, and all those other rules that offend our modern sensibilities and so get ignored.
This book "Understanding prayer, Faith and God's will", is dedicated to all who believe (in Jesus), and to those who haven't .
About the book:
Do unanswered prayers cast inner doubts on your faith? Do you seek God’s will for your plans but are not able to discern His guidance? Do you face perpetual problems of job insecurity, financial burden and health issues?
“Understanding Prayer, Faith and God's Will” present biblical truths not realized before – truths that we can see and apply in our human journey. It clarifies wrong notions we have about prayer and God's will, and strengthen faith with knowledge.
There are 12 chapters in this book:
1. Inner Doubts
2. What does the Bible mean?
3. Prayer: What did Jesus Intend to tell us?
4. "Why doesn't God answer more prayers?"
5. To Pray Again
6. Does Sin impede prayer?
7. Faith in God
8. How does God call people? (if He has a designated plan for them)
9. Understanding God's Will
10 Being in God's will
11 Journey of the Bible
12 Reading the Scripture Fruitfully
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http://www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=9781620241431. Released Feb 2013, available at Barnes & Nobles, Amazon
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Parents, what would u do if ur invisible god ever ask u to do this?
"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock,"
My guess they wont listen to their beloved God lol.. but if God asks them to perform a task that makes them feel good.. thats religion for them..
my question is simple this to those mindless religious nuts.. how do they know when and which 'gods word' in bible is to be taken lightly and which word is to be followed?
Just came across this article... No you are crazy if you are having a conversation with something that doesn't exist. A debate or questioning in your mind is your conscience, when you come up with an answer it is simply resolving your issue through deductive reasoning.... There is no god
Okay, there's some pretty verifiably false claims going on here.
"I went to many educational sites about evolution and there is no direct evidence that evolution is true"
So a little bit of Science. Ideas progress as follows.
1. Someone has an idea for how things might work.
2. This idea is bandied about until it can be formed into a hypothesis. A hypothesis makes predictions that are either verifiably true, or verifiably false. All hypothesis must have conditions that would invalidate the hypothesis.
3. Hypothesis are shared in the scientific community, experiments are designed to expose if a hypothesis's can be invalidated or validated.
4. This is repeated until the hypothesis is either disproven, or until multiple independent scientist are able to reproduce experiments, and fail to disprove the hypothesis.
5. A hypothesis that has withstood the rigors of people trying to disprove it over time becomes a theory.
The 'Theory' of Evolution, is not just and idea, or a crack pot explanation. It's a theory, because 'ALL' fossil data, 'ALL' genetic data, and 'ALL' other observational data is consistent with the theory. If it weren't the Theory would be dismissed and trust me, scientists, love to shoot down each other's work. There's no conspiracy, if they could they would.
You cannot find a single example that violates the theory of evolution. So please, let's stop the nonsense about 'no direct evidence'. 'ALL' the evidence reinforces evolution.
If the above Scientific Method was applied to religion, what would the result be?
A nube trying to make sense of the crisis of evolution. First its Darwin's theory and he states we are from apes well that has already been debunked by science through dna and next there is no fossil evidence to support evolution. The theory of evolution maintains that different groups of living things developed from a common ancestor and grew apart with the passing of time. According to Darwinism, living things grew apart from one another like the branches on a tree.But the fossil record shows just the opposite. Different groups of living things emerged suddenly with their different structures. Some 100 phyla suddenly emerged in the Cambrian Age. Subsequently, the number of these fell rather than rose because some phyla became extinct.
"First its Darwin's theory and he states we are from apes well that has already been debunked by science through dna"
Show where it has been debunked, Bob.
How is that tailbone?
First, Darwin's idea was not that we evolved from apes, but simply the through descent with modification species are generated and all organisms have a common ancestry. Humans and gorillas (both are classified as Great Apes) have a common ancestor. The closest species to humans is the chimpanzee or the bonobo.
Many species and phyla came about at the beginning of the Cambrian era, but the suddenness of those appearances took around 70 or 80 million years. "Sudden" in geologic time, but hardly instantaneous.
A new report in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences suggests that the common value of 98% similarity of DNA between chimp and humans is incorrect.Roy Britten, author of the study, puts the figure at about 95% when insertions and deletions are included. Importantly, there is much more to these studies than people realize.Will evolution be called into question now that the similarity of chimpanzee and human DNA has been reduced from 98.5% to 95%? Probably not. Regardless of whether the similarity was reduced even below 90%, evolutionists would still believe that humans and apes shared a common ancestor. Moreover, using percentages hides an important fact. If 5% of the DNA is different, this amounts to 150,000,000 DNA base pairs that are different between them!
Cite your sources. Actually bring your evidence instead of spouting out "Oh this says this and that" with no confirmation.
lol, there is no crisis in evolution. There are a tiny group of larger delusional subset who simply deny fact. The world has always had its share of these loons. However now the suppression of science just isn't as easy to achieve. The church's position has been and likely will continue to be, "suppress each scientific advance until it simply can't be ignored then work it into the theology". With each step god is pushed further out of our world.
The number of creationists are small but vocal. The majority of moderate religions already grasp evolution even if the cognitive dissonance makes them uncomfortable. Even if someone doesn't buy the fossil record in itself, which is obviously ludicrous, there are many other lines of evidence all converging on evolution.
Bad news, Bob, but in case you haven't noticed the marketing is slowly shifting from "human and ape common ancestor" to Morganucodon as biologists prep the world to grasp that every animal on the planet (life) originated from thermal vents in the ocean.
The world is trying our best to work within what your tiny, tiny brain can fathom. But we can't sit and argue forever. We know we need to drag Neanderthals into the future.
We gave you a while to grasp the "related to monkeys" concept, then held your hand as we yanked you along, gradually introducing it was not a chimp but rather a "common ancestor". Now we're going back further and will be marketing Morgie as the mammalian ancestor, which pushes the debate further away from just "where did humans come from? Chimps!"
Now we can focus on the fact that we're not just related to chimps. We've broadened the target in effort to broaden your mind. At the same time we are helping the world further understand how preposterous is the idea humans and dinosaurs lived together. Soon, instead of creationists arguing to keep "evolved from chimps" out of textbooks they'll be arguing to "keep Morgie out", which is great because it is now an accepted and foregone conclusion that we evolved from a common ape-like ancestor.
Morganucodon "Morgie" is an early mammalian genus that lived during the Late Triassic. It is our ancestor, a survivor of the meteor strike which decimated the dinosaurs and allowed us to take over the planet. Thanks, Morgie!
Science has been trotting out their false god "nothing" for some time now and it's time to put it to the test. I'll wager $100, ya, that's right, $100 to the first scientist that can create an entire universe of matter and energy on my desktop here, using "nothing". Now I've heard it's really easy for "nothing" to do this, it's taught in schools all the time that we're supposed to take it as fact, so OK, prove it.
Meanwhile, I'll kick back and read the bible, God's words, the source of the universe talking about what he did.
Wow, you really have absolutely no idea what the hell you're talking about.
See Morgie in action at the Smithsonian!
HG, no, it's science that doesn't know what it's talking about. The "nothing" god of science, doesn't do anything. It never has done anything, nor has it said anything either. God did say what he did, and he's right.
John tell us your thoughts on the fact you're evolved from a rodent.
The very fact that you are spewing out thing like "the nothing god of science" is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You have nothing (lol) to back up your statements. You have no logic behind your posts, and no facts either. Believe whatever the hell you want, but don't expect to be able to tell others what they believe, and don't pretend to know anything about science when you're clearly demonstrating your own ignorance about it.
God created me, through my parents. They were not rodents. By your logic, because we're 98% water, then we are most likely to have evolved from icebergs. I don't think so. The water being a component used in God's design, does not make me a "distant relative" of icebergs... nor rodents. God made what ever he wanted, when ever he wanted to. Science has been blaspheming against God for some time now, taking him out of discussion of his creation, and trying to force fit their god called "nothing" into what God made. I doubt God is happy about this, because people that believed and loved him, have been being pulled away, when they probably would have found him and loved him. Instead they're left with nothing.
You pray to science's "nothing" god, I'll pray to the source, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
John, really, your parents were rodents. And not much genetic change happened in the generation following them.
Don't try the satirical stuff with people like John. He'll take it, then claim that that is what all scientists think, or some kind of bullshit like that. Not to mention he apparently can't tell the difference between internal composition of elements and common descent in DNA.
You pray for us, John, and we'll think for you.
Seriously, where's your proof that prayer has ever done anything other than consume valuable time?
Next you'll be claiming that no only icebergs, but we're evolved from iron too, male and female rocks... bumping around in an avalanche of nothingness creating everything.
Grow up people, science's "nothing" god has never made anything. there are examples of feed forward DESIGN, and nothing can't design anything... but God can.
@john "God created me, through my parents."
You haven't been paying attention. The bible is a known fraud. There is no God of Israel. At least you understand your parents had something to do with it. I guess that's a start.
"They were not rodents."
Nope, but your ancestors sure looked like rats. Morganucodon is pretty rat-like.
"By your logic, because we're 98% water, then we are most likely to have evolved from icebergs. I don't think so."
I don't know if we can assert we came from an iceberg because the vents we likely came from are hot water. But you're catching on that water had something to do with it. Nice!
"The water being a component used in God's design, does not make me a "distant relative" of icebergs... nor rodents.
Oh my, just when we were making progress... Our common ape-like ancestor came from a common rodent-like ancestor. See?
"God made what ever he wanted, when ever he wanted to."
Oh dear, me oh my. That is a precious notion. Did you believe it when the Wicked Witch was melted with water at the end of Oz? Seemingly you will believe anything.
"Science has been blaspheming against God for some time now, taking him out of discussion of his creation, and trying to force fit their god called "nothing" into what God made."
If your impotent god had any power man wouldn't have any control over conversation about him. but your god is worse than impotent, he simply doesn't exist.
"Next you'll be claiming that no only icebergs, but we're evolved from iron too, male and female rocks... bumping around in an avalanche of nothingness creating everything."
HAH! Didn't I call it?
John, you're getting there. Rocks bumping around is what created our planet. Nice! You're also closer than you think with your iron comment. All the atoms in our body, and coincidentally iron as well, came from exploding stars. John you're almost there. Shed that silly god notion.
ER, you are arguing to erase the creator of the entire universe, and you don't realize how ridiculous that is. God allows you to say what ever you want to say, and it's all history, past, present and future history. You are an open book, start to finish. What will you say later, ER, when God asks why you handed credit for what he did, to nothing.
Aw, shucks, you were coming along nicely for a bit there. Anyway, god won't ask diddly. I'm sure you know he doesn't exist.
I believe that one's relationship with God is a personal one. If you have to discuss it with someone, it's not really your own relationship with God then, is it? If you want to hear His voice to help you through something and it doesn't ask you to hurt someone else, then so be it.
Now, if you insist on pressing your beliefs upon others to pervert the understanding of nature or to afford yourself political gain, then you're not engaged in religious life you're engaged in stupidity at best. If you nurture personal beliefs so as to better serve others no matter what, then you're creating something rewarding.
For those who would smash the beliefs of others with the zeal of a butcher in a meat packing plant, you're no better than the religious zealot. It's fine to demand clear, logical, physical reasons for discussions on social governance but do you really have to go smash out all the windows in Notre Dame just to ensure the Church doesn't make anyone more happy than reason can support?
In other words, arguing about religion is like arguing about the best shade of orange to match up with the best shade of red in someone's bathroom. It's not an item that yields to consensus.
that seems rational to me
I have heard this argument before from those that want the discussion of the Lord to be in dark back rooms and only the priests and church to know the Bible. What a crock, the main focus of the Bibles teaching is go spread the good news and that is what Jesus said in the Bible. When you put on the full armor of God it is really amazing that you put on your Gospel as your shoes. There are two reasons for this so that when you walk you can spread the Bible and when you walk your walk conforms to the Bibles teachings. Jesus called it the good news and so it is. Check out what your armor is in full dress. If you don't speak about the Good News then you are essentially keeping the best news to yourself, essentially saying to those you meet that you dont share with, go to hell. The Bible is the power to save so why would you want to keep it in the dark. A friend tells another friend how to get out of trouble and avoid it, he doesn't let his friend walk into it or not stop him from doing something that may hurt him. So freely spread the Good News, rejoice for salvation has come to those today who listen and accept and walk in the marvelous light of Jesus.
More pompousness from Bob
There's significant evidence in neurotheology that repeated mantras and prayers can be used to calm the mind, leading to a dissociation between the newer parts of the brain and older parts, like the amygdala and the posterior parietal lobe.
So yes, there is evidence of why people hear religious auditory hallucinations, as the affected areas of the brain control our perceptions, including the ability to distinguish between our inner monologue and an ouside third party source.
Essays by Christian apologists, whether scientists (rarely) or not, don't get around the fact that we already know the human brain can produce the most realistic of delusions. Simply arguing that one delusion is a "positive" voice and the other "negative" does nothing but describe the general sense of character and security of the individual in question.
Absolute nonsense, and intellectually insulting to anyone with a reasonable IQ.
I have met and heard of too many scoundrels, weirdos and manipulators who somehow tooled religion into their game-plan to take anybody who claims that God speaks to them out loud seriously in a positive manner, as a matter of fact, knowing human nature I believe the Bible to be full of lies, not storytelling or unscientific interpretation, but outright lies intended for ethnic boosterism, political propaganda and clergy job securing. I do believe in a Divine Power though, just not one for which anyone has exclusive billing rights.
Jorge you as myself and others allow people sway us in finding out who God really is to us. What He has for us if indeed He can do the things He says He can do. Jesus said of even Himself there is no one good except for the Father. why let mans example keep you from knowing a God that not only loves you but wants you to know Him.
"Jorge you as myself and others allow people sway us in finding out who God really is to us."
Like those who wrote, translated and edited the bible
One proof that there is a God is the Bible itself, as a book goes its still around still relevant to today. I know of no other book that shares this idea. Books, they all come and go but the Bible stays. It STILL changes lives gives peace hope and comfort to those who read it. It still incites ugly remarks from those that are lost, why would a book do all this if it were not real,relevant, alive, and important to today's standards. Praise God for He is good and blesses those that seek Him. There is one God but many gods and one way to the Father and that is through the Son, Jesus. If you need peace or help call on Him and see if you can find the same proof that many before you have. That He is alive and willing to help and touch those who call on His name.
Top Ten Signs You're a Christian
10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 – You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 – You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.
The ten signs your a atheist
10 You have to try to make a mark by cutting down Christians with nothing to offer
9 You believe science when it says people have evolved from other life forms without proof
8 You have no conception of a triune God and equate that to the same belief as polytheists
7 You attribute terrorist acts done today by Muslims to the acts done centuries ago by God who created life in the same significance
6 You have no idea of spiritual things so you have one catch all that science cannot explain and no other person except Jesus was raised from the dead
5 You think Christians spend the time atheists and scientists do trying to disprove the Bible in verifying it. Not understanding we wait for science to catch up with God
4 You don't understand choice, revelation knowledge, wisdom, and so label everything intolerant to your personal ideas, a form of bigotry
3 You have no understanding or the acceptance of the lies of Darwin and see anything other than what you accept as false and others as ignorant
2 You fall back into science and surveys to prove God and that it has never been able to do
1 You think all Christians are ignorant about their faith.
0 You offer the world nothing, insult those who believe differently and think you have everything figured out.
I love the list regarding atheists. Very true. Especially with evolution and the last one where they think they know everything (because they think they know so much more than believers). I went to many educational sites about evolution and there is no direct evidence that evolution is true. Much of what I found was a redirection to other scientific studies such as human anthropology in order to indirectly prove evolution. Many scientists who are honest will acknowledge that the fossil evidence does not exist that "proves" one species evolves into another. Yet, many of them put blind faith in evolution and actually think it is reasonable to do so!
in regards to no links with direct data to evolution, i thought these might help:
i hope you finds these sites helpful!
bob: atheists offer the world as much as theists do
how's that tailbone doing, bob?
St. Michael: When has an atheist told you he or she knows everything?
can you stop posting that junk
this an opinion forum
stop with the dissing everyone
God TOLD me to get down on my knees and please him. I did it just like my priest showed me, I pleased God and Jesus with my mouth, and they filled it with their praise when they were done. White slimy holy j.1.zzzzz. Praise the lord!
I have the same fantasy about Krishna and Lucifer...however I usually keep that one to myself.
the players didn't embed whops!
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