By Arielle Hawkins, CNN
Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.
From the Blog:
CNN: Nigerian forces kill 13 Boko Haram militants after church attacks
Islamist militants in Nigeria's restive north have taken the lives of 34 people since Christmas, including 27 Christians attending church services. On Tuesday, the country's military took the fight to Boko Haram's stronghold, killing 13 suspected combatants.
Photos of the Day:
Photo credit: Uriel Sinai/Getty Images
Ultra Orthodox Jewish men pray next to the body of Rabbi Abraham Jacob Friedman of Sadigura Hasidic dynasty during his funeral on January 01, 2013. in Bnei Brak, Israel. The Rabbi was the leader of the Sadigura Hasidic dynasty in Bnei Brak and died at the age of 84.
Photo credit: Arif Ali/AFP/Getty Images
A devotee dances at the shrine of Muslim Sufi Saint Data Ganj Bakhsh in Lahore on January 1, 2013. The three-day festival for Hazrat Ali Bin Usman, popularly known as Data Gunj Bakhsh, started with traditional zeal with a 'chaddar' laying ceremony and the distribution of communal milk at the shrine.
Photo credit: YOSHIKAZU TSUNO/AFP/Getty Images
Shinto priests bow during a ritual end-of-the-year purification ceremony to prepare for New Year's Day at Meiji Shrine in Tokyo on December 31, 2012. Millions of Japanese people will visit shrines and temples across the country to celebrate New Year's Day, one of the most important holiday periods of the year here.
Christen News Agency: Iranian pastor's Christmas arrest worries religious liberty advocates
A Christian pastor who spent nearly three years in an Iranian prison for his religious conversion was reportedly arrested again on Christmas Day, contrary to a previous agreement.
Reuters: Israeli TV star-turned-politician to confront ultra-Orthodox skipping army
In a matter of months, Yair Lapid has turned from heartthrob television news anchor into a rising star of Israeli politics, leading a new centrist party into elections on January 22. Lapid’s late father, Yosef, tried as a justice minister to curb the political power of ultra-Orthodox Jewish parties. Now the son is gaining popularity with younger voters by promising to relieve a housing shortage and abolish military draft exemptions for Jewish seminary students.
The Guardian: Gay mass services in Soho abolished by archbishop of Westminster
The Archbishop of Westminster, head of Roman Catholics in England and Wales, has ordered that special fortnightly "Soho masses" for gay and lesbian churchgoers in central London are not appropriate and are to be axed. The services, intended to be particularly welcoming to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered Catholics, had been held at Our Lady of the Assumption church in the West End for six years with the blessing of senior clergy but had attracted criticism from traditionalists.
New York Times: One-Stop Sunday Mornings for Cowboys and Cowgirls in an Arizona Town
From an improvised pulpit nestled on a slice of desert sand between a bull-riding ring and a bar serving biscuits and $3 beers, the preacher opened his last sermon of the year with a question and a revelation. Steve Gilbertson, 52, has been a preacher for about 30 years. Four months ago, he started a church of his own. At his last job, he had led an informal Sunday morning service over coffee and doughnuts at a local megachurch. Now he preaches under a mesquite tree, in the shadow of a saloon best known for the quality of its country-western bands and the fervor of its regulars’ allegiance to the Green Bay Packers.
NY Post: Devotion wins out: Pong star nixes Sabbath match
She doesn’t spin on Shabbos. Ping-pong prodigy Estee Ackerman, an 11-year-old from Long Island, was disqualified from her final event at the 2012 US National Table Tennis Championships in Las Vegas last Dec. 21 when her match fell on the Jewish holy day of rest and she chose not to play.
NYT: A Careful Writer Stalks the Truth About Scientology
Lawrence Wright’s book “Going Clear: Scientology, Celebrity, and the Prison of Belief” explains that more people appear willing to discuss Scientology’s image problems.
Quote of the Day:
And once again, and I don’t know what my chances are of getting into heaven, but the absence of listening to the compassion and support of the religious community is deafening to me. I know their strong position about same-sex marriage, and about women controlling their bodies and all of those things and I say if you write the book, you have the rules, do what you have to do. But my God. When it comes to caring for people, not New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, not just the United States, but all over the world—can’t there be some people that have compassion to know that these are what God expects us to do? That’s why we say, ‘in God we trust.’
- U.S. Representative Charlie Rangel, D-New York
Opinion of the Day:
Tibetans at a protest in Taipei in 2011 display portraits of people who killed themselves by self-immolation.
CNN: My Take: Blood on Chinese hands in Tibetan self-immolations
Stephen Prothero, a Boston University religion scholar, wrote an article for the Belief Blog last summer criticizing the Dalai Lama for not speaking out against the increase in Tibetan self-immolations protesting Chinese rule. His article was recently quoted by China Daily, an English-language newspaper and a mouthpiece of the Chinese government. Prothero now clarifies his position saying: “When I criticized the Dalai Lama for his silence on the self-immolations, I should have criticized the Chinese government even more forcefully, for carrying out a policy of cultural genocide in Tibet.”
Join the conversation…
CNN: Googling the Dead Sea Scrolls
Tania Treiger pulls on her tight blue gloves and picks up her tweezers, preparing for the extraordinary job she has been hired to do. She is one of only five conservators in the entire world allowed to handle one of the most significant discoveries of the 20th century. Treiger’s job is to help conserve and record the more than 2,000-year-old pieces of parchment that make up Dead Sea Scrolls.
Public revelation is complete. We've been told what we need to know. Still, there are those who choose to ignore it despite seeing a very few who accept it & live serenely compared to their own stressed existance. Pity them. p.s. Proper names are always capitalized...even fictional characters...even unicorns whose characters are named.
"Public revelation?" What are you talking about?
Are you trying to say Christians live a serene life??
Most tortured group I ever met!
Take their woman, holier than hell, whisper to their self doubts and they are shagging like wet sheep dogs.
The truth is, enormous numbers of them realized long ago it is all lies, but they are trapped inside
Open the door out, and they will open up all of themselves to you.
I think Pax and Demuth are "having an argument with himself," so to speak.
Made from the atomized realms both celestial and cellular cosmologies are made manifest into being. Without the inner cosmology of atomized realms, there could be no other cosmological realms. With regards to the cellular cosmologies of living realms, "Are not our bodies made up of molecular mechanisms, the machines made by quite small yet very intelligent beings with knowledge beyond our built brain-yards capabilities toward truly understanding the principles of cosmologic wonders"?
Molecular sized machines did not (IMHO) come about by sheer coincidence! They were built just the same ways we build our machines! And these molecule size machines need operators and mechanics in order to function correctly! To say that molecular machines built themselves is pure poop! It seems redundant that the perplexities of molecular mechanisms are made via a cellular blueprint followed in conjunctions of and by intelligent designers all living amid and within each and every molecular mechanisms while the base roots residencies of such super small yet very intelligent beings could very well be each and every cell's DNA. Just because we cannot microscopically see and peer into the very depths of atomized symmetries does not preclude that super small living beings do not exist!
You gotta run for congress dude!
Your gibberish would make you Speaker of the House within a few weeks!!
Uh oh – he threw up his word salad again. Clean up needed – pronto!
Cowardlylion said "Molecular sized machines did not (IMHO) come about by sheer coincidence"
Two words Clion,
My gubernatorial wanting is a no go at least here upon the megalithic concubines of monolithic measuring ways and means! When my megalith like body dies and my conscience is given back to the smallest realms of living orders, I will become that which I so long ago was; to continue doing the will of those who rule the inner realms of cellular commodities commonwealths.
Did our 'machines' come about by sheer coincidence? Is this not proof enough?
Have ruled you can't teach. ID/creationism in public schools in the US. Court stated ID another form of religion
No lion, that is not proof enough.
Just like it is not proof enough to say, "god just makes it happen."
Just like it was not proof enough back when the babble was written and people said lighting was made my god and their "proof" was that is seemed logical. We know lighting does NOT come from god.
Don't you see how far science has pushed you in trying to defend your god hypothesis?
I used to be lightning and earthquakes etc that your believers used as your "proof."
But science solved all those things to the point that even you believers had to admit that those are not proof of god.
And every time you believers drew a line in the sand and said, "see, this is proof of god" (example, intelligent design), science just smashed thru your line.
Now you are at the edges of time, claiming the big bang is evidence of god. Or in your case, the edges of molecular biology.
Science will solve those too and you will be forced to yet again, find something science has not figured out yet as the elusive "proof" of god.
You are lost.
Enjoy you long slide into oblivion.
Super small beings of intelligence, building and maintaining molecular machinery within all megalithic life formations may well be considered ID yet to think of such issues outside the veins of rudimentary sciences is where debates of, are to be made manifestations for thought inspired conjectures.
Niknak... Virtually all scientists today agree that the world we live in (the Universe) had a beginning commonly referred to as the Big Bang that happened 13.7 billion years ago. A lot of different parameters had to be carefully adjusted to certain precise levels in order to assure that our Universe would have particles, atoms, molecules, planets, stars, galaxies, etc. in order to make life and us, humans, possible.
This means that there are two possibilities here, that the Universe was designed and built by someone having the knowledge and ability to do it or, alternatively, that the Universe just came into existence all by itself from nothing.
Which one of these two possibilities is more plausible, in your opinion?
Niknak... You're mistaken if you think that by explaining how things work using the "laws of nature" science somehow disproves the existence of the Creator who created every object in this world as well as the rules (we call these rules "laws of nature") defining how these object interact with each other.
Do you understand the three cosmologies of relative orders as I have been posting here or are you unable to fathom such orders potentials? Let me once again post them and gaze upon the simplicity of such order.
1. The inner cosmologies of atomized realms
2. The outer cosmologies of celestial realms
3. The cellular cosmologies of living realms
These three points of cosmic revelations are so simple yet very complex in their intertwining of spatial realms whereby the realm of nothingness itself takes on a form of dependencies for all materialized matter to coalesce and be subjugated in many manners of physically complacent issues.
Is there only ONE universe as science "speculates" or are their unknowable quantifications of universes being far too many for science to consider? The last time I checked, The Hubble space telescope took a timed photo of a blackened point of space and many scientists were bemused and in awe that the photo showed galactic clusters where science thought nothing would be photographed! The asinine views of hardened science does ever so slowly evolve their staunch minded theoretic culminations toward ever being enlightened by others perspectives found out to be plausible.
Have you ever heard of the terminology called Fractal Cosmology? Google it and be amazed!
LL is the belief blog idiot always full of drivel ramblings.
Lion and 23.
And what you have proposed does not prove god any more then what I have proposed disproves god.
But since it is you, the believers, who have said that god is fact, then it is your burden to give us proof, not my burden to disprove it.
Just because we don't know how the big bang occured, or what was here before it, does not mean it was caused by god.
That is just an unproven hypothesis.
Why is it so hard for you believers to just say "We don't know?"
Why do you have to have some all powerful creature as the cause of it when to date there is absolutely zero evidence that this creature exists.
Your religion is just the latest in a long line of religions that has come before that tries to give an explanation without any proof. Heck, most of your beliefs were ripped off from those previous religions.
At the end of the day, you are free to believe in what you want.
But what you are not free to do is push that belief on others that don't want to go along with your myth.
THAT is the problem that us non-believers have with you believers.
You go out and howl at the moon, and want to pass laws that force us to go out and howl with you.
Until you have some proof of you myth, then for me, and all that other non-believers, it will remain just that, a myth.
Your circularized logistical relevancies are prudently rhythmic denunciations requiring little basis for tenured essay. I have showed you my 3-part reasoning and yet you have taken little time to logically think about such mind altering possibilities! Your headstrong stamina to be scientifically unyielding may be due your educative amassing little factual science leading you towards a lowered stance of science orientations. In my nearing 58 years of living life, I have had a long held belief regarding 'Fractal Cosmology'!
Lion, you have not shown me any reasoning.
Funny how you call it a "three part aproach."
Did you lift that fromt the holy trinity three part aproach to god?
Most of you bible was ripped off from other religions, so I will assume this is the case.
I understand your logic perfectly, and here it is all boiled down to one thing;
Anything that science can't explain is evidence of god.
So by that definition, then I guess cancer is from god, as science still does not know how it starts.
And so if autism. God must make that happen in two year old kids since science does not know it's root cause.
Mental illness, like what happend to the young man in Sandy Hook. Must have come from god, right?
I could go on, but I think you get my point.
Your 3 part reasoning as to the proof of god is worthless. Sorry to be blunt, but that is what it is.
Meaningless drivel that is not backed up by any facts. Just your supposition.
If you tried to present this to any accredited scientific board they would laugh at you.
Still can't actually find anything relevant to say I see.
All you have to rebuke my stance is circular reasoning. Your inability to open up to anyone's views of thought-out understandings leaves your stance to ever be circular logic.
A beginning to space, time and matter only implies some "thing" not made of space, time and matter exists and caused the big bang. Some people seem to believe this fact means that that "thing" has a 100% chance of being THEIR God. I have stated this to you before Thinker: If you define the absence of space, time and matter as nothing, your God is nothing. We both think that their was some "thing" before the Big Bang. Also the fact that the universe is precisely the way it is des not mean it was purposely designed that way. The environment determines how life evolves, not vice versa.
What stance Lion?
That anything that science can't explain is evidence of god?
That is all that I have been able to get out of you.
Your cosmologies are not science or proof. And you seem to be the only one putting forth that line of reasoning.
If you were onto something, then where is you evidence and proof of it?
All you are doing is making an unfounded assertion.
Go ahead and follow it, but don't try to pass it off as fact.
Where Lion, can I find any of your scientific work in cosmology?
What peer reviewed publications have you been published articles in?
Can you provide any links to any of your research in cosmology?
What other scientists have you worked with?
Who the hell has even heard of your trinity?
Pick one and then pick another to get acquainted with Fractal Cosmology
lionlylamb, you should get acquainted with reality.
My nearing 58 dares give me my reasoning to dare dream my thoughts regarding the momentums of Life. No longer of a breeding stock and not wanting to be associated with any manmade church, my dreamt daydreams are all that I have to offer anyone willing to consider my dreamt of daydreams. My life's yearnings to make known to a group of people what my beliefs are about. The chasms of cosmological orders are vastly more interesting than any commoner wanting to make light my wordage. In scriptures of the KJVB, are verses I adore for they are plain and simple needing little exertion of wisdom.
Mathew 6:33 "But seek ye first the kingdom of God!"
John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world!"
Luke 17:21, "The kingdom of God is inside you!"
1Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building!"
I must be the biggest procrastanator ever, as I did go and check out those sites. One did not link to anything, but I was able to see some of what you are refering to.
You seem to be hanging your god hat on some pretty far out theorectical hypothesises that are way beyond provable.
String theory might be more concrete then what you are looking at.
And I will say that same thing to those researchers, where is you proof that fractals are what caused the big bang, and where is your proof that fractals are evidence that god exists.
Can't you just be like the other fundies and say you believe because of the bible?
@ William, No. Democracy implies self rule. The vain belief that man could become as God, could know which was right & wrong, is the original sin. No. Democracy is man's invention. God created everything without your input. Your role is to live in creation, love the Creator & follow His laws.
Tell your God to blow me.
I live and die as I see fit, without his blessing or input.
He is a coward who hides behind old ladies and pedophilles
" love the Creator & follow His laws." So you're telling me "he" has a penis then?
I already follow the laws of the universe. You know, gravity, time, that sort of thing. If some god somewhere wants me to follow laws that anybody can break any time that they want to, then he / it needs to do a better job of explaining them so that we're all on the same page, here. If some azzwipe is going to be torturing people (or allowing them to be tortured) for all eternity for some arbitrary standard that only some people understand, then he can svck my b@lls.
Then who created airplanes?
Those are not mentioned in the babble.
It was not god, but men. Men who followed science.
Then men came along who believed in god, and flew those airplanes into buildings.
They say (experts) self control and will power controls our life.
Niknak: "Who created airplanes?"
Great question! Can you (or other humans) explain how airplanes work? The answer, of course, is a sound YES. Does it mean that airplanes WERE NOT created by people who designed, developed, built and tested these airplanes? Similarly, the fact that we, humans, can explain how planets orbit the Sun does not prove that both the planets and the Sun were NOT created by someone knowing how to do it.
Your logic is so faulty thinker, that I don't even know where to begin with it.
I guess you fell hook line and sinker for intelligent design, even though it has been soundly debunked.
I will say it again, maybe it will sink in.
Just because science has not figured out how the big bang occured does not mean it was done by god.
We know precisely how everything has formed since the big bang occured.
Our solar system is not mysterious at all in how it works.
In fact, the reason we are having this discussion at all is even more proof that science has a firm grasp on how it all works.
But go ahead, thank god for all the technology that science has given us that has made your comfy life possible.
Any opinion offered by a self deluded atheist must be ignored because it is impossible for someone who thinks they are an atheist to be truthful.
Missed your meds again?
Christianity is a culture of lies and self delusion!!
Even you can't be crazy enough to believe that the ruler of Time Space and Dimension gives a rats rear end if you choke to death on a Holy Host.
You live, you die, you rot and you are forgotten.
Deal with it.
OK truth NOT be told.
Then show us non believers some proof of your god.
It is you, the believers who have made an assertion of fact about god existing.
Give us some credilble, tangible evidence of it.
That is all we have been asking for, like since forever.
And you've been told how to find proof nik. But you don't want proof. You want to scoff.
Oh you mean your believe then you'll get the evidence to believe idiocy?
Seems the one who really wants to scoff is Bill, since proof is undeniable. When something is proved it's not debated any longer and people don't have different ideas of what it is. How many people debate whether or not the number two exists and how it operates? Silly christians.
Post by 'Bill Deacon' presents a request to apply confirmation bias.
Did you see your own fallacy in your arguement Deacon Blues?
You said I was "told" how to find proof.
Not given proof, but "told."
Because that is all you have Blues, is someone telling you that god exists.
NOT by providing actual proof.
Believe in god because we say so.
I have been "told" to read religious books as the way to prove god.
There seem to be quite a few of them, and most of them contradictory to the others.
I will assume your book is the choosen one, right?
Because you were "told" that growing up.
It really is pointless trying to reason with you, or Lion or 23 or any other believer.
Nothing will make you let go of your security blanket.
A mind is a terrible thing to lose, to religion.
For what reason might an omnipotent being beget flawed children?
Might a man of honor intentionaly create defective children, solely for the purpose of trying to perfect them AFTER the fact??
I guess it comes down to abortion really
If God was either incapable or unwilling to provide for us, he should have at least been mercifull enough to abort our race!
But apparently his hunger for worship is greater than his morality, so he created an entire race with the soul purpose of suffering, cursed to spend our limited lives begging him to forgive us for HIS failures.
The Christian God is an evil thing.
Just one correction: "The Christian God is an evil thing." I submit that the Christian God isn't. Not isn't evil, but just isn't. It has to exist to be a "thing".
God is just culture externalized
What a man worships speaks volumes about him, even if the thing he worships exists only in his own delusions
To be Christian, or Jew, or Muslim or Zoroastrian means one is bound by his Gods stated morality, and complicit in his Gods sins.
Did not it happen to you that the God (Christian or otherwise) may have his own considerations and reasons to create and maintain HIs creations?
To have a "purpose" indicates a lack of omnipotence.
One does not needs means to an end when one already controls the end.
Either God is perfect, and thus the end, or merely superior, and working towards an end
Which do you prefer?
William... "Omnipotent" means "having unlimited abilities". I do not see how being ABLE to do something contradicts the possibility of having a PURPOSE for doing it. For example, if you have the ABILITY to drive to the store and buy some food there does it mean that the need to buy food can not be the PURPOSE of driving to the store. Further, even if God is perfect ( and I don't think that this is necessarily the case) it does not mean that everything else in the world we live in is perfect as well.
@ William, No. Jesus did not change God. The God of the old testament spoke to humans at the maturity level those humans had attained – rigid laws. His prophets revealed what was to come in the person Jesus who fulfilled the law. Jesus did not change God. He changed the relationship between man & God.
So they are distinct?
Then which one is in charge??
Is it a democracy?
Does the Space Ghost get a vote?
Why doesn't your god talk to us anymore, like you claim it did back in the old testicle?
Did it go mute?
Or is it more subtle now, and only talks to us by letting horrible things happen, like little kids getting shot multiple times?
What do we call a Father who murders his own children?
Apparently Christians call him God.
Do as you are told Or God will murder you AND throw in eternal torture as a bonus.
No wonder Christian kids are so crazy!!
An omnipotent creature creates us flawed humans and then tortures us??
Hell of a God you guys have.
Do you REALLY love him, or are you just terrified of him??
You guys are sheep.
They may be sheep but u r a bandicoot
Why do you keep capitalizing god?
I might be wrong, but we usually don't cap imaginary critters, like unicorns.
To indicate possesion
Like when you call a person Dipstick, rahter than the collective dipstick
I also capitalize Superman and Thor
Was just curious.
I like to not cap it as I know it pi_sses off the fundies even more then when I question their sky fairy belief.
For reals?? Understand Gospel???
I have studied it for over half a century, and it is NONESENSE.
And you Good God Bad God twist is obvious to any inner city
Condescension?? I know your Gospels far better than you!
So we are pawns in some debt exchange between omnipotent?
Did we dogs crap on Gods lawn?
Did Jesus save us from a beating at the hands of the big meanie God and now we owe him something?
Even fifth grade city kids know the Good Cop – Bad Cop routine and have recognized they are BOTH bad cops
Our ransom payable to them? Worship or suffer.
They are either incompetent, indifferent or cruel and thus they are imperfect and unworthy of worship.
@ William: God is 1 being in 3 persons, the Father the Creator, Jesus the Word the Christ who became incarnate, and the Spirit. All are eternal. All have existed eternally and have no beginning or end. They exist as one but in seperate beings. This defies human understanding of physics, time, existance. We don't have to understand. His existance is not reliant upon our understanding or acknowledgement. It just is. That's why God's answer to Moses asking His name was "I am". He is in all time & all space.
No it dosen't defy mine
Some of us smell bul%%it a mile away
I guess I Am God too... that is if all it takes is to tell someone else "I Am..."
Hey all, winter done shown it's ugly mug. Jeebus it's cold here!
But cold or not, it will still be a beautiful day without god(s).
Here is a simple concept
I find it hard to imagine a God, but one thing does seem self evident
If God exists, he is an azzhole, and unworthy of worship.
God would just essentially be a drunken and abusive parent and we should wait until he is asleep and kill him.
No one could blame us if we did.
It's high time that the world put superstitions such as Christianity behind it. Next time you hear someone claim to have heard from a god, or to claim the existence of god, ask them for valid proof that a divine being was involved. Such proof has never, ever been presented.
No miracle has ever been proven to have been the work of a divine being. No valid proof has ever been presented for the existence of god. Meanwhile, contradictory and wild claims are made for the characteristics and actions of Christian god, that themselves prove under examination that such a god does not exist.
Stop the god fraud and all the evils and hate and bigotry that are part of Christianity. Demand proof. Here's to less religious idiocy and less religion in 2013. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
While I appreciate your zeal, God may have a reason for not heal amputee's
It may be the same reason he took their limbs in the first place.
While I believe it is all bull cookies, nothing requires God to be benevolent.
Perhaps he just dosen't like you?
In any event, feel free to either ignore him or refute him at will.
Bob et al,
1. The inner cosmology of atomized realms
2. The outer cosmology of celestial realms
3. The cellular cosmology of living realms
Made from the atomized realms both celestial and cellular cosmologies are made manifest into being. Without the inner cosmology of atomized realms, there could be no other cosmological realms. With regards to the cellular cosmologies of living realms, "Are not our bodies made up of molecular mechanisms, the machines made by quite small yet very intelligent beings with knowledge beyond our built brain-yards capabilities toward truly understanding the principles of cosmologic wonders"? Molecular sized machines did not (IMHO) come about by sheer coincidence!
I adress this basic question to all the believers
Did Christ and his experiences change God?
Is the morality of Christ superior to the morality of God as expressed in the Old Testament?
Demoo you are a world class idiot.
Simple questions seem to scare believers.
Always have, always will.
The God theory collapses under observation, so most refuse to observe.
OK, well, Christ and God are one-in-the-same. You seem to be differentiating between the two. Second, God doesn't change, as the Bible says.
This Bob thinks William Demuth's posts are great.
Then Topher, riddle me this
Why does Mr Brown insist that Christ's suffering somehow benifited me?
If God was divine, how did Christs sacrifice improve God?
Was God shallow and self centered only before Christ, but now is egalitarian and benevolent?
Explain it to me.
"William Demuth": "Is the morality of Christ superior to the morality of God as expressed in the Old Testament?"
Yes, "William Demuth", this is a question that Christians should ask themselves. Then they should carefully compare the mythological "God" and "Christ" characters with their counterparts in Mormonism and Nontrinitarianism.
My prediction, likely more accurate than any Babble prophecy, is that Topher the Idiot is about to get schooled by WD. . . "Popcorn! Get yer popcorn here!"
"Why does Mr Brown insist that Christ's suffering somehow benifited me?"
Well, Christ's suffering POTENTIALLY benefits you. You have to understand the Gospel. As a sinner (we all have sinned) you and I have accu.mulated a debt we cannot repay. God is just and because af that He MUST punish us for the lawbreaking we've done. But because God is also loving, He paid our fine by suffering and dying on the cross. So while we deserve Hell, He took the punishment we deserve so that we can be seen as righteous on our Judgment Day. In order to receive that gift, we must repent (not just say you're sorry, but turn away from sin) and trust in the Savior. If you do that, then Christ's suffering is the most kind thing anyone could have done for you.
"If God was divine, how did Christs sacrifice improve God?"
It didn't. It was something that was only beneficial to man. It was an incredible act of love. Let's face it, the King of Heaven left His thrown to walk among us and be falsely accused, tortured and died just to pay our ransom.
Topher, any god worthy of being called a god should have been able to handle their time among the mortals without any problem. Zillions of non-gods have managed to endure the horrors of day-to-day living, and worse, and it's not like gods have other things to do.
Topher: "Let's face it, the King . . ."
What problems did Jesus have?
Topher, *I* don't believe a divine jesus existed so *I* don't think he had any problems, but *you* listed above a number of things he endured, allegedly for us, that any reasonable god should have been able to handle without breaking into a sweat or whining.
True, Jesus endured many things, but He knew those things were to happen and He was successful in overcoming them. For instance, He was tempted by the Devil himself, but did not sin. When He was tortured and killed (which is what He came for) He thus rose from the grave — defeating death — and proving He was who He claimed to be.
Allegedly defeating death. But I am certain you missed the entire point. . .
"Allegedly defeating death. But I am certain you missed the entire point. . ."
Entirely possible. Try explaining it again?
Your god is supposed to be all powerful. He could have used his powers to avoid actual pain, humiliation, etc. He could have altered time/reality so that the pain was reduced to zero. He could have come up with a less complex and more effective way to get what he wanted or to get his message out. But no, he actually behaves like a mere mortal. . . 'Cause it's just a story made up by goat herders and believed by idiots!
You're certainly enti.tled to your views, but I think this was the perfect way. I've often been asked why God didn't just wave a wand and POOF all is forgiven. But you have to understand that by coming to Earth, man got to see Him, touch Him, see the miracles. It was easier to believe. In the wand scenario, unbelievers would complain that there is no evidence and that He should have came and show Himself. Also remember that not only was He physically with us, He wrote 66 books to get His message out.
And you should note that Jesus was both fully God and fully man. He had to be this way. He had to be fully God in order to be the perfect sacrifice (without blemish or sin) and He had to be fully man in order to represent all of us.
Oh, and dude, c'mon, you're better than arguing with name calling.
Wow, Topher you're one fucked up cat!
I'm sorry, "Topher", but there is no empirical evidence that "by [God] coming to Earth, man got to see Him, touch Him, see the miracles." This is an unfounded assertion.
Also, "Topher", there is no empirical evidence that "not only was He [God] physically with us, He wrote 66 books to get His message out."
Also, "Topher", there is no evidence that "He [God] wrote 66 books to get His message out."
Also, "Topher", there is no empirical evidence that "Jesus was both fully God and fully man."
Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent truths is: "TOTAL FAIL".
There's plenty of evidence for me to believe. Just as there's plenty of evidence for millions around the globe to believe. I'm sorry you don't find that same evidence compelling enough for you.
" But you have to understand that by coming to Earth, man got to see Him, touch Him, see the miracles. It was easier to believe"
Santa was a real man, and he did miracles so by your logic it means he is still real and alive today. Yippee, time to get on the nice list. Santa is real!
When you see him again, you won’t need the nails, you will be on knees, confessing he is the son of God.
I suspect if I do see him, he will have an altar boy on his kness on front of him.
Once a Palestinian Pedo. always a Palestinian Pedo.
Well, we killed him once, so we can just do it again!
Now that is a flat out impossibility.
Yes, every human who ever lived or will live killed him once, but that is it. His sacrifice it what allows you to write things like that without being instantly vaporized. He is giving you the opportunity to repent, don’t waste your opportunity.
So before his sacrifice anyone against God was immediatley vaporized?
Then how did we kill him and several hundred so called Saints, Prophets, and assorted other charlatans?
Your God talks alot of jive, but seems pretty impotent to me. Jeebus as gangsta dog! HA!
Now Allah?? Thats a God who whoops butt and keeps his maggots on the straight and narrow.
No, he didn’t do a whole lot of immediate vaporization, that was just me, talking. The point is even if we didn’t have end time prophecy and all we had were the examples of how God judged sin in the past, it would be more than enough to make it very clear, God judges sin. Without the righteousness of Jesus, you will be weighed in the balance and the scale is rigged, one bad act or thought outweighs all the good you could ever do.
Frankly, you seem to be irrational.
You seem at points to claim God and Jesus are one, and then seperate and corporeal.
Dogma has muddled your mind to the point where you seem to alter reality to suit your indoctrination.
Here is a sanity check for you
Do God and Jesus agree on everything? Either answer nulifies your theorem.
Yes, they agree, and I don’t see where that nullifies anything, perhaps you could point something out.
Root post by 'Robert Brown' is a form of the flawed argument known as Pascal's Wager.
OK, lets start with the basics
Is God Jesus, and is Jesus God?
You refer to them as distinct. Are they or are they not the same thing?
Because if they are distinct, and both Omnipotent, Gods creation of Christ would change nothing.
Your premise is that God was inperfect before the existence of Christ, that Christ and his suffering somehow changed God?
If God is omnipotent and perfect, he is immutable and can not change. Christ could teach him nothing, thus he served no puropse other than vanity.
If Christ DID change God, than God was imperfect (and thus Christ was imperfect because imperfection can not create perfection)
Mr Browns statement has nothing to do with Pascals wager, proving once again that fallacy spotter is unable to discern a fallacy, but it is a mute point, as at best all so called atheists are proven liars.
truth be told are you actually Mr Brown
Mr Brown, aren't you also the prayer troll?
It seems you folks, like your Gods, seem to need several personalities acting at once!
Fallacy Spotting 101,
Fyi, I posted this last night, it may do you some good.
When I first started posting on here I made a statement about the consequences of not believing and was immediately presented with Pascal’s wager. Well, I had never heard of it, but was led to believe I had committed some philosophical atrocity. I got curious, as I usually do, and went and did a little reading. Come to find out the argument continues. Several philosophers have weighed in over the years and the validity of the argument is still disputed. The wager is criticized for several reasons and they all have their points to which there are counterpoints and so on.
I think it is fair to say that the only ones who admit the argument is valid are the ones who believe that God is at the very least a theoretical possibility. That being said, I think the only ones who have a leg to stand on in complaining against the wager are those who are convinced that God is not a possibility.
Now I know why I received the complaint originally and why the debate continues.
Scientists believe ANYTHING is possible.
We calculate probability!
In truth, if a God exists, I am probably it, because I am the only thing that possibly actually exists.
All perception may spring from me, and all of it can be decieving.
God is, God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. The three are one, or the parts of God if you like. Jesus, the son of God, walked the earth in a human body. His development inside his mother was the same as yours or mine, with one very important distinction, no human s.p.e.r.m. Jesus was with or part of God in eternity past, the only difference is that when he walked the earth, he wore a human body. The OT God and the NT God are the same. God the father could not and can not tolerate sin. The OT sacrifices were a finite cover for sin, Jesus is the infinite cover for sin, and even beyond that, he is the sin eraser.
Just more religio-bafflegab from Robert Brown, so typical. Since he can't prove anything, and his beliefs are self-contradictory and absurd, all he can do is dodge and obfuscate.
Robert, present proof or shove off.
So says man.....prove it
I am not truth be told or the prayer troll. Last night I was accused of being Bill Deacon, and while he seems to be a good guy, I am not him either. I think the reason nonbelievers think some believers may be the same person, posting under various handles, is that we are drawing from the same spirit.
Which is more divine, the God that tolerates sin, or the God who dosen't?
Why worship the former and the latter?
In fact, hasn't Christ deposed God, and essentially forced him into retirement, by forcing his moral values on the weaker and older God?
Only one of the two can be correct and thus perfect
Which one is?
Robert, ae you denying you post under other names?
Will you lie here?
Since "Fallacy Spotting" does present Pascal's Wager as a "flawed argument" rather than a fallacy, he/she is being very accurate in that, also considering Willam Demuth's statements. Admirably precise and fair, actually. Robert Brown's statement also neglects the other possibilities per standard Pascal's Wager, so actually it is the case that Fallacy Spotting 101 was spot-on and 'truth be told' is the one spreading falsehoods or, at best, an error.
So Robert and 'truth', looks like you got nailed hard. Perhaps just not like your Jeebus was, but maybe from behind.
Fallacy Spotting 101,
Fyi, I posted this last night, it may do you some good.
..... I made a statement about the consequences of not believing
So says men...prove it
........... posting under various handles, is that we are drawing from the same spirit.
Well there is a line of $ h it lol
God does not tolerate sin, he forgives sin. You can either receive forgiveness or judgment, your choice. Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago as the ultimate sacrifice for sin, he came as a babe, a lamb for the slaughter. When he comes again, he will come as the righteous judge. He will judge sin, sin and those who commit it will be removed. Sinners will physically and horribly die and those who are already physically dead will be cast into hell, the second death. Does that sound more like the OT God to you, read the gospels and the warnings Jesus gives. When the prophets say “in that day” pay attention, compare what they describe to what Jesus said, and what you read in Revelations. Don’t be misled, he is the same.
One time a couple of months ago someone stole my handle and posted a bunch of junk. So, for one week I posted under other names, none that I had ever seen used before. That was the only occasion I ever used another handle.
@BobbyB: will god tolerate your lie concerning vaporization?
Robert Brown, the whole premise that an omnipotent creature needed to "sacrifice" anything to remove "sin" is blatant, obvious nonsense, if you have the guts to look at it critically, that is.
So how again could a being that can purportedly manipulate history and time lose anything within a death of a "son", when it could just snap its fingers and create another one, or roll back the event and change it? The answer is that your god clearly does not exist as claimed, and your whole religion is a complete sham and fraud without any foundation in reality.
Rather pathetic "god" it is that you've made for yourself there.
Stop the god fraud and all the evils and hate and bigotry that are part of Christianity. Demand proof. Here's to less religious idiocy and less religion in 2013. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
To say "I am an atheist" is to say " I am a liar. "After self confession as a liar what possible argument can the so called atheist advance that is not already suspect?
I am a liar, because I am lying to you now.
You are an idiot, because you were born one.
I can tell the truth if I like, yet you shall always be an idiot.
To say ""To say "I am an atheist" is to say " I am a liar. "" is the same as to say, "I am a childish troll with no other intent than to provoke and insult." After self confession as a troll what possible argument can the so called troll advance that is not already suspect?
@truth be told
You said, "To say "I am an atheist" is to say " I am a liar."
That's got to be one of the dumbest statements here. It should come as no surprise that it came from a believer.
To be a believer you have to accept some fairy tale as true, in spite of complete and utter lack of evidence in support of it. Worse, for most it means believing in some creature that is impossible to exist. Being a believer is no different from an adult still believing in the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny.
It really makes me wonder how they manage to tie their shoes in the morning.
Make sure you tell the RCC to REPENT
GOD created s ex, gave it to us as a gift in which we may become co-creators of life with Him. That is why He sipulated how we are to use, not abuse, this loving procreative power.
Is that ridiculous nonesense why Rednecks think molestation dosen't make babies??
Save the spiritual puke for they altar boys, who may fall for it when the priests loosen the knots that are holding them face down on your sperm stained altars.
One freed they will really need HUGE indoctrination so they don't sue your church into oblivion.
Luckily for you, the boys can't get pregnant!
Not accourding to our DNA.
None, in Numbers and elsewhere in the bible, your god actually OK's and instructs men to rape in certain circustances. That is heinous, and is sufficient cause to reject your religion entirely. The whole world needs to move on from its old supersttions and the shameful treatment of women that happens in so many places. Christianity is one of the culprits and the women of the world would be better off without it.
RCC wants to control your S-eX LIFE TOO
Where are the REAL headlines in here?? Another pedo priest going to the big house!
Priest jailed for 8 years after 5,000 child p0rn images found in church office
A Roman Catholic priest who pleaded guilty last year to federal child p0rnography charges was sentenced on Wednesday to eight years in prison.
Bartley Sorensen, a 63-year-old former pastor of St. John Fisher Church outside Pittsburgh, Pa., pleaded guilty in May to receiving and possessing thousands of explicit images of exploited children.
Good for you for bringing that out, William.
Are we really surpised at the Catholic Church and Catholics???????????????
And the RCC continues to shun gays. . . What would jesus have done, making the huge assumption a divine jesus actually existed?
0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls,
Good point, he would not shun them. He would tell them the same things he tells the whole world, repent the kingdom of heaven is at hand, come to me, I am the way, the truth, and the life, you must be born again.
how old is the earth ??
we have very old stones that has been dated.
Christ was gay with a capital G
Even a fourth graders gaydar picks that up.
Anyone claiming otherwise is just being childish!!
The Gnostic gospels even specify that he was (thus they were banned)
William D. How dare you use logic and the ancient texts to prove a point. You must have "faith," LOL. I have Faith, she's a "good" girl. Faith seems to know alot of people. :-)
The only reason people dont believe in God is they don't want to give up their sin.(the lust of the flesh the lust of the eyes and the pride of life) your unbelief won't make God disapear.
The Earth as an accreted celestial body of roughly the same size as exists today, was formed roughly 4.567 billion years ago as concluded by current (2011) scientific evidence. Bible Scholars say the earth is at least 6000 years old.
Point him out for me!
As I recall, he was sentenced to death, and I haven't had a good crucifiction in months
I always keep two 2×4's and four nails in my trunk, just hoping to run into him.
The fourth nail is for his forehead so your zombie savior finally stays dead.
I am glad to see you believe in Christ.
Of course I do
I met a guy just the other day named Jesus.
He was a chef at Taco Bell.
Rubio clarifies age of the Earth answer
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