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'Jesus Wife' fragment gets more testing, delays article
A scholarly article based on the 'Jesus Wife' fragment was delayed as researchers waited on further testing.
January 3rd, 2013
02:30 PM ET

'Jesus Wife' fragment gets more testing, delays article

By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Editor

(CNN) - One of the most anticipated articles in religion circles will be absent from the pages of the January edition of the Harvard Theological Review. Harvard Divinity School professor Karen King's final article on the "Jesus wife" fragment did not make the scholarly journal because further testing on the Coptic papyrus fragment has not been finished.

King announced the findings of the 1.5-by-3 inch, honey-colored fragment in September at the International Association for Coptic Studies conference in Rome. In a draft version of the article submitted for publication in the January edition, King and her co-author said the scrap had written in Coptic, a language used by Egyptian Christians, "Jesus said to them, 'My wife," but was then cut off.

King said the fragment dates to the 4th century but could be a copy of an early gospel from the 2nd century.  King and her research partners dubbed the hypothetical text "the Gospel of Jesus' Wife."

Despite King's insistence, the discovery did not prove anything definitive on the marital status of Jesus.

The announcement of the papyrus scrap exploded in the media.

"The earliest reliable historical tradition is completely silent on that. So we're in the same position we were before it was found. We don't know if [Jesus] was married or not," King told reporters in a conference call from Rome in September.

5 questions and answers about Jesus' 'wife'

A dealer took the fragment to King for analysis and translation in 2011. The dealer wishes to remain anonymous, she said.

"We're moving ahead with the testing, but it is not yet complete, and so the article will await until we have the results," King said in an email to CNN.

"The owner of the fragment has been making arrangements for further testing and analysis of the fragment, including testing by independent laboratories with the resources and specific expertise necessary to produce and interpret reliable results. This testing is still underway," Kathyrn Dodgson, director of communications for the Harvard Divinity School, said in a email to CNN.

"Harvard Theological Review is planning to publish Professor King’s paper after conclusion of all the testing so that the results may be incorporated," Dodgson said. "Until testing is complete, there is nothing more to say at this point."

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In her original article King explained how a papyrus expert had dated the fragment to the right time frame and how an expert on Coptic linguistics said the grammar seemed to fit the time period, as well.  But what was untested in the early goings was the ink used on the papyrus.

Elaine Pagels, a professor from Princeton University who is an expert on gnostic writings such as this one, noted to CNN in September "You can find boxes filled with Coptic fragments," but what makes this one significant is for the first time it explicitly has Jesus referring to "my wife."

Faking antiquities is not uncommon, which is part of the reason so many critics questioned the authenticity of a text that potentially went against nearly every other ancient text concerning Jesus. Other scholars refused to comment on the find until the full battery of testing could be completed.

“The academic community has been badly burned,” Douglas A. Campbell, an associate professor of New Testament at Duke Divinity School said in September, noting how similar discoveries have turned out to be fakes.  The provenance of the document, "the history of where it came from and how they got it,” was a great concern to Campbell and other academics.

The Vatican newspaper weighed in on the matter in late September mincing no words and calling the fragment “a fake.”

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

On the day King announced the fragment, the Smithsonian channel announced it had been working with King for months on a documentary about the find and the authentication process.  It had been slated to air in early October but was pulled back.

Tom Hayden, general manager of the Smithsonian channel, said in a statement in October  the delay "will enable us to present a richer and more complete story. We will be announcing a new premiere date in the coming weeks."

No announcement has been made as to when the premier will happen.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Catholic Church • Christianity • Vatican

soundoff (1,768 Responses)
  1. Max

    CHAD: I have asked you before for contemporary, non-biblical accounts of the lives of Pontius Pilate, Socrates, Plato, King Herod, Quirinius and Caiaphas, but if you've responded, I haven't seen it.

    TALLULAH 13: As for those other people you name, which ones currently have churches which insist that they exist and that we must obey their words? I'm not familiar with those religions. Could you please clarify?

    CHAD:...............................

    Typical non-Chadanswer. Disingenuous twit.

    Why bother?
    Let the bloward bloviate his dihonesty. He does Christianity no favors. Moron.

    January 5, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Chad invalidates his own "evidence" with his arguments. He is not a terribly clever person.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:50 pm |
    • Max

      Yeah, I got that....

      January 5, 2013 at 7:07 pm |
    • Stan

      Josephus, the Roman historian speaks of Pilate and Caiphas. Plato himself wrote the Repbublic which gives mention to Socrates.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:19 pm |
    • L.H

      Ahh Bet, I am angry at my abuse, and at anyone who has caused such trauma in another. But I am not stupid enough to think all men are heinous because of the men that are I do believe atheism is vile, albeit not as vile as rap ing, murdering and theiving. My faith is my own in spite of the horrible things that happened to me.

      I did not come here to talk of my education, my faith, my ra pe. I came here to have a conversation about Knights Templars, Dead Sea Scrolls, archeology, historical study, the possibilities of Christ having a wife, but as with so often here it falls into banter with atheists who actually believe they are smarter than anyone! Even God! They belittle, attack, act with bigotry, and think they are smarter than Einstein and live an empty life with no one more supreme than themsleves!

      January 5, 2013 at 11:16 pm |
    • L.H

      Wrong spot for the Bet response, sorry! Carry on about Caiphas, at least it seems like an honest discussion.

      January 5, 2013 at 11:19 pm |
    • sam stone

      L.H.: Why do you think that atheism is vile?

      January 6, 2013 at 6:30 am |
    • Chad

      see page 15 for a complete discussion..

      January 6, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
    • Chad

      I would also add that your list of requirements now stands at:

      1. account must be written at the exact same time the events being recorded occurred, not at a later date no matter how proximate it was. The 20 years from death to Paul's first letters is deemed entirely unacceptable.
      2 account must be written by a person who was an enemy of the person whose activity is being recorded (non-sympathetic)
      3. account must not be hearsay (account must be a authored by a direct witness of the events)
      4. the person or event being recorded must not be that of a "religious figure", for those persons/events there simply is no acceptable evidence since atheists already know they are all false.

      January 6, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • little timmy

      Be sure to check each of these claims Chad is trying to make for someone else. He will lie and twist one's words.

      January 6, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
  2. L.H

    I used to think atheists were just bitter people who had their dreams crushed–who suffered possible religious abuses, or were people who had a hard time feeling deeper because of personal pain they blame "God" for or personal pain they cannot understand why it happened. Now I think atheists are just vile in their thoughts and angry because they cannot and do not wish for anyone to feel things, see things, and know things they do not or cannot!–Many of them so lack a moral compass as to say such vile things on a website attacking others for no reason other than they see, feel and think differently.

    January 5, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
    • ksocreative

      I used to think this was an original answer that warranted a response.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:57 pm |
    • L.H

      ksocreative–I used to think people who used the ideology of creative actually were creative open minded people!

      January 5, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I used to think that morons like you were just harmless.

      No, wait. That was somebody else.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:09 pm |
    • Max

      Yeah, well, I got r.aped by a fvcking priest, you pompous ass hole. I'm fvcking enti tled. Pizz off, you condescending dick pr!ck.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
    • L.H

      well I got r-a-p -e-d from a non priest so that makes you an angry bitter person at every person of religious ideology–that is pretty ridiculous –that woul be like me hating all men!

      Get some PTSD therapy it works!

      January 5, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Get an education, LH. It works. You're incredibly insensitive.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:25 pm |
    • Max

      Nah, you're just trying to one-up me to try and feel superior. You're a false Christian, and it shows. I don't need therapy, dear. I need condescending twits like you to quit generalizing about people that you haven't a clue about. All of your "moral compasses" were not invented by people like you....and those that I met that pretend they have one DON'T!

      January 5, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • L.H

      I am college educated thanks– I also learned to put my anger and rage where it belongs and to also work at cleaning up the parts that are unhealthy I was r- a -p e-d at 14, so I don't need a class on anger and rage or PTSD. I learned my rage is normal, I also learned that my anger is towards the man who did this to me and all men who commit these atrocities to others. I learned to not take it out on everyone else-but yes I agree people who commit s-e-x- ual abuse are vile!

      January 5, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
    • Bet

      @ LH

      It's ironic that your original post is a rant about how vile, horrible and lacking in "a moral compass" atheists are, and then you say

      "well I got r-a-p -e-d from a non priest so that makes you an angry bitter person at every person of religious ideology–that is pretty ridiculous –that woul be like me hating all men! Get some PTSD therapy it works!"

      to a ra<i.pe victim.

      You're just a shining example of a godly life, aren't you?

      January 5, 2013 at 7:46 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      LH, how dare you tell someone else how to "get over" ra pe? You're as sh!tty as the people Prothero describes in his article about Sandy Hook. Get off it. Nobody needs your proselytizing.

      January 5, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
    • L.H

      Yes Bet I am at least I don't act bitter enough to blame the whole world for the acts of a heinous person–do I think atheists are all vile– only the ones who trash others with little regard for mental or moral intellectual discussion–only the ones who trash another persons beliefs because they are different than their own–are atheists as vile as r-a-p- ists–not unless they are one!

      January 5, 2013 at 8:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      For someone who claims to be college-educated, you write like a kid. Use some friggin' punctuation.

      January 5, 2013 at 8:22 pm |
    • L.H

      Tom Tom don't like my dashes–this is a blog not a thesis–get over it! - are often used for emphasis and style not for a MLA college paper!

      January 5, 2013 at 8:29 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You're either lazy, stupid, or uneducated if you can't be bothered to write a coherent sentence. If you want anyone to have the slightest regard for your opinion, then write one that is readable. Otherwise, blow.

      January 5, 2013 at 8:33 pm |
    • L.H

      I think atheists are bitter, angry people. I believe atheists wish to make anyone who believes in God as angry and bitter as themselves. This makes atheists biggotted, self righteous cowards who refuse to face what they are really angry at. I also think people who judge someone for believing in God are twisted, and no different than a racist.

      Coherent enough Tom Tom–

      January 5, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yep, I was right. You're stupid and ignorant. You believe something based on posts you read here. If I based my feelings about believers on posts like yours, I'd say that all believers are delusional sh!twits who can't figure out how to tie their own shoes. If I were to base my beliefs about all believers on your posts, I'd say that all believers paint everyone who doesn't believe in exactly the same sort of god they do as "vile, bitter" people. I know that isn't the case, because I have known many believers who are loving, kind, caring, and giving; who don't judge others, and who are far more concerned with doing as Christ commanded than in spending time shaking their fingers at those who are different.

      To put it briefly: I don't judge all believers by ass holes like you, LH.

      January 5, 2013 at 8:46 pm |
    • L.H

      Maybe someday I'll meet a kind atheist. I definitely haven't met any here! As for being kind and loving, I am more than certain I have given more, loved more and shared more with the unfortunate than you. I didn't do it for guilt, for some warped sense of a fake God, I did it because I care. But honestly, I wouldn't give two cents for a biggotted atheist!

      January 5, 2013 at 9:01 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You know nothing about me or anyone else here, idiot. And it's "bigoted", ya moron.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "Now I think atheists are just vile in their thoughts and angry because they cannot and do not wish for anyone to feel things, see things, and know things they do not or cannot!–Many of them so lack a moral compass as to say such vile things on a website attacking others for no reason other than they see, feel and think differently."

      Yeah, you're a real peach, L. H. Just ever so loving and giving, aren't you? You can hardly wait to point fingers at people you've never met and judge them. You're chomping at the bit. It's obvious from your post that you just couldn't WAIT to vent your spleen about your dislike for those who don't adhere to your belief system, could you? Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back and polishing your sparkly little halo for having been SUCH a loving, giving angel.

      What a laugh.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:15 pm |
    • L.H

      I came here to have a discussion about a archeological find and was attacked for being a believer. Don't play high and mighty Tom Tom. You are right, I know nothing about you, nor you me. But boy you love to mud sling as do all the atheists here!

      I say again atheists here demonize Christians and faith believers. I do not spew a ideology, nor a religion. I do not judge those who ask questions about anothers faith, nor people who wish to understand another. I believe in interfaiths of God, not doctrine Tom Tom. I do not glorify humans as the end all to life

      Accordingly, you say you only believe in the power of humans. I say the power of the humans here is angry and vile. I would like to see atheist here that isn't mean spirited and judgemental towards those of faith.

      OOOPS can;t find one, really???? I thought atheists were such kind souls!

      January 5, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
    • L.H

      It is amazing to me, I came here to have a discussion about a archeological find and was attacked for being a believer. Don't play high and mighty Tom Tom. You are right, I know nothing about you, nor you me. But boy you love to mud sling as do all the atheists here!

      I say again, atheists here demonize Christians and faith believers.. I do not spew a ideology, nor a religion. I do not judge those who ask questions about anothers faith, nor people who wish to understand another. I believe in interfaiths of God, not doctrine Tom Tom. I do not glorify humans as the end all to life

      Accordingly, you say you only believe in the power of humans. I say the power of the humans here is angry and vile. I would like to see atheist here that isn't mean spirited and judgemental towards those of faith.

      OOOPS can;t find one, really???? I thought atheists were such kind souls!

      January 5, 2013 at 9:46 pm |
    • L.H

      Well since it was posted twice by accident, I guess enough said! Go ahead Tom Tom show your kind atheism!

      January 5, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You can't even comprehend what's written, L. H.

      You should really take legal action against the temple of higher education that granted you a diploma. You were cheated.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:49 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "Accordingly, you say you only believe in the power of humans"

      Do cite the post where I said any such thing.

      If you have to lie to prove your point, you don't have a point.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
    • L.H

      There you go again, you are such an amazing and kind atheist. Hey Tom Tom,my education came from Public Colleges in CT. Yeah the tough state, not some hokey pokey bumpkin state. I can comprehend what is written. Try to really"Know Thyself" and others or is Delphi a foreign language to you?

      January 5, 2013 at 9:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So you lied, then.

      Thanks for playing.

      By the way, neither "public" nor "colleges" is capitalized unless it begins a sentence, and what you probably mean is "state colleges."

      What other names do you post under? Your style is quite familiar. You sound a lot like Brophy.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:57 pm |
    • L.H

      --Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "Accordingly, you say you only believe in the power of humans"

      Do cite the post where I said any such thing.

      If you have to lie to prove your point, you don't have a point.

      Tom Tom, that is the definition of an atheist!

      Atheist

      a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

      An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity.

      Origin:
      1565–75; < Greek áthe ( os ) godless + -ist

      January 5, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Cite any post in which I stated I was an atheist, L. H.

      Or are you going to lie again?

      January 5, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity."

      Cite your source.

      January 5, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      "Tom Tom, that is the definition of an atheist!"

      Cite any source that defines an atheist as someone who believes only in the power of humans, L. H.

      You're really not long on brains, are you?

      January 5, 2013 at 10:20 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      How many times have I handed you your ass, Brophy? When are you going to realize that you're not equipped?

      January 5, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      This has been a mighty dull conversation, LH. You're not bright enough to be worth the effort and not stupid enough to be entertaining. I'd rather read a book. Go tilt at something on your level, like a junior woodchuck, dear.

      January 5, 2013 at 10:29 pm |
    • L.H

      o And how long after Jesus' supposed crucifixion were the Bible accounts written, Chard?
      January 5, 2013 at 9:07 pm | Report abuse |
      o You claim god exists. The onus is on you to present proof or acknowledge that all you have is faith, Chard.
      That's all you have ever had. The fact that you continue to present nonsense as evidence must mean that all your faith isn't sufficient for you, much less for anyone else. If your faith were truly enough, you wouldn't be here.
      o All of which were written decades after Jesus, if he existed, was gone, doofus. Thus, not contemporary, that is, not written during or even shortly after his death.

      all your quotes Tom Tom!

      Also FYI I have no idea who Brophy is.

      Atheists source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

      January 5, 2013 at 10:55 pm |
    • L.H

      By the way, our banter is hardly a conversation. It is simply your male ego trying to usurp me by trying to belittle my education, telling me I have no right to give advice on se xual abuse even though I have lived it, and you asking me to cite sources about your atheism. A conversation is intellectual in nature, not banter!

      January 5, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
    • Bet

      @LH

      You started talking about all the evidence of Jesus' life from the 1st and 2nd century and got your ass handed to you by several people. So you choose one or two to unload on. You're not the first bible banger to call me names and you won't be the last. It's what happens when some christians get shown the door by a nonbeliever who knows the bible better than they do, and it exposes you as not only stupid, but a hypocrite. All your foaming at the mouth to Tom, Tom, Max and me shows your true colors.

      But your crowning achievement is your "my rape was worse than your rape and I'm not angry so shut up, shut up, shut up. I am not angry! I'm not! NO! I AM NOT ANGRY!! Atheists are vile! Yes! That's it! Atheists! Vile! I am NOT ANGRY!!"

      Calm down before you blow an aneurysm in your head. You can't afford the brain cells.

      January 5, 2013 at 11:07 pm |
    • Bet

      @ LH

      Psst...just so you know....Tom Tom doesn't have a male ego.

      January 5, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • Bob

      L.H, Your observation about athiests is right. For most part, they are angry, bitter and mad at God and people of faith. Their only entertainment in life is to pick up cowardly arguments with just about any stranger. Some of them have no shame in spending hours together on this blog going off on a tirade to no avail.It must be some mental condition that causes this kind of animosity toward others.

      January 5, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
    • L.H

      o Ahh Bet, I am angry at my abuse, and at anyone who has caused such trauma in another. But I am not stupid enough to think all men are heinous because of the men that are I do believe atheism is vile, albeit not as vile as rap ing, murdering and theiving. My faith is my own in spite of the horrible things that happened to me.
      I did not come here to talk of my education, my faith, my ra pe. I came here to have a conversation about Knights Templars, Dead Sea Scrolls, archeology, historical study, the possibilities of Christ having a wife, but as with so often here it falls into banter with atheists who actually believe they are smarter than anyone! Even God! They belittle, attack, act with bigotry, and think they are smarter than Einstein and live an empty life with no one more supreme than themselves!

      January 5, 2013 at 11:22 pm |
    • ME II

      'Tom Tom has no male ego' it is cross dresser ;)

      January 5, 2013 at 11:24 pm |
    • L.H

      Ah, Bob agreed!

      But I truly think it is a combination of ego, anger and shallow self importance. Anyone who cannot see that something greater than themselves has a hand in the world and life is pretty arrogant! They argue off topic and cannot even carry a decent coversation worhty of intellect. I have spoke with Jews, Christians, Agnostics, and Muslims. The worst is definitely an atheist, for their only God is themselves. At least an agnostic is unsure what to believe.

      January 5, 2013 at 11:26 pm |
    • Bet

      @LH

      You brought up your faith, your education and your rape. If you hadn't, no one would be discussing it. But not only did you bring it up, you berated another rape victim in a vile, to use your word, way. You weren't "giving advice", and to characterize it as such is a lie.

      And you don't know about anyone's life but your own, empty or otherwise.

      January 5, 2013 at 11:37 pm |
    • Bet

      Don't get so excited, having Boob agree with you isn't exactly a compliment LH.

      January 5, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • sam stone

      "Now I think atheists are just vile in their thoughts and angry because they cannot and do not wish for anyone to feel things, see things, and know things they do not or cannot"

      How many athiests do you know in real life?

      "Many of them so lack a moral compass"

      Many self-proclaimed Christians lack a moral compass

      January 6, 2013 at 6:33 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      LH, you didn't come here to "discuss" anything. You made a post calling all atheists "vile" and claiming that they had "no moral compass." If you don't like it when someone tells you you're full of sh!t, then either don't make statements that indicate you are, indeed, full of sh!t, or leave.

      Nobody has to put up with your supercilious, judgmental crap. Suck it up or scram, buttercup.

      January 6, 2013 at 9:53 am |
  3. Toto Katt

    I have not read all of the 13 pages of comments so someone might have made this point –

    There is a major editing FAIL here.

    The blog says:

    "Despite King's insistence, the discovery did not prove anything definitive on the marital status of Jesus.

    The announcement of the papyrus scrap exploded in the media."

    What is accurate:

    Despite King's insistence THAT the discovery did not prove anything definitive on the marital status of Jesus, the announcement of the papyrus scrap exploded in the media.

    January 5, 2013 at 6:36 pm |
    • Stan

      Good point. I mean journalist really need to get some English skills. Sentence fragments-bunch of crap.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:10 pm |
  4. Joey

    Jesus was like Martin Luther King, they both had a dream and both got killed for it.

    January 5, 2013 at 6:18 pm |
    • Bet

      Except that we have evidence that MLK actually existed. Other than that, I lol'd.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
    • L.H

      Bet you are a bitter person who cannot submit to the countless historical facts of Jesus--he is written about in many many accounts dating back to the 1st and 2nd century-your anger, bitterness and responses show that you care little for facts and simply wish to attack–attack and attack anything you cannot respect! Your feelings are your own get off your high horse and respect that others think and feel different than you-buck up and deal with it!

      January 5, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • Keeping It Real

      L H
      "he is written about in many many accounts dating back to the 1st and 2nd century"

      Every one of those accounts are simply reporting what the early Christians claimed about their super-hero. Not one of them lived at the same time that Jesus allegedly did. Some of those same early historians talked about Emperor Vespasian being a god and about Hercules too - does that mean anything to you?

      January 5, 2013 at 7:11 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Do you know how much of American history has been 'rewritten', LH? There are many historical "facts" less than 200 years old, that are inaccurate. Why would you imagine that stories written two centuries after the fact are true and accurate when said stories are 2000 years old?

      January 5, 2013 at 7:14 pm |
    • Bet

      @LH

      Why do you say that, LH? Because you misquoted the bible and I corrected it? Because you attempted to impress us with a few Greek words and I pointed out you were using the wrong words? Because you called Jesus "God's first creation" when the first sentence of the bible says "In the beginning god created the heavens and the earth"? Because you claimed that Jesus said he wasn't god when he clearly did?

      You're just pissed because you posted a bunch of misquotes, mistranslations and flat out lies and I called you out on it. Why don't you prove me wrong instead of acting like a baby and calling me a poopy-head?

      Cry me a river.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I am betting LH is about 16.

      January 5, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
    • L.H

      Ahh Tom, so wise in your old age, or instilled in bigotry. I am in my 50's.

      January 5, 2013 at 8:28 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Well, at least you're educable, LH. You actually learned how to spell "bigotry." Brava!!!

      January 6, 2013 at 8:30 pm |
  5. None can deny that Jesus is the most powerful influence in all of history.

    Anyone who sees created things and deny the fact that there is a Creator is clearly a blinded fool born to perish. I wont waste my time on proving something that is so obvious. A blind man will never see unless he is given sight and that's one simple truth. I will leave all you non-believers with a few simple verses.
    Job 27:8-"For what hope do the godless have when God cuts them off and takes away their life?
    1 Corinthians 1:18-"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    1 Corinthians 2:14-"But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.
    John 14:17-"the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you
    John 8:47-"Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don't listen because you don't belong to God"
    John 6:47-"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life"
    John 3:36-"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
    John 3:18-"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
    John 5:24-"I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life."
    Matthew 25:46-"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
    Romans 6:23-"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    Life is nothing but a CHOICE. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, you all have a CHOICE. Just know and understand that some decisions will have permanent consequences. Life by right and by eternal law belongs to the Giver of life. He can take it and give it to whom ever He pleases. Life is a choice. Finally before you judge my Lord and God, the Creator of all things; take into considerations His words. Ezekiel 18:21-23-"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done. I don't want wicked people to die." declares the Almighty LORD. "I want them to turn from their evil ways and live."
    I pray that your eyes and ears are open to the Word of God and you choose life and not death. Peace and grace from my Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.

    w w w the eternal wisdom . com

    January 5, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • Grundig Glasswerks

      Denied. Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein have both had more influence on our leading thinkers than Jesus has.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:10 pm |
    • Keeping It Real

      Over 2,000 years now and still 2/3rds of the world does not believe the Jesus legend. It took probably less than 50 years for the theory of gravity to be accepted world-wide... and it is the same for any other proven ideas, eg., mathematics, the telephone, radio, engines, penicillin, etc., etc., etc.

      The population of the world at present is a bit over 7 billion.
      There are approximately 2.1 billion Christians, which is around 33 per cent.
      http://chartsbin.com/view/3nr
      http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904108.html

      January 5, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
    • Keeping It Real

      You can post quotes from that book frontward, backward and uʍop ǝpısdn. It means nothing as evidence that a supernatural being exists or "spoke" a word to anyone.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:18 pm |
  6. Joseph (Jesus's father)

    My son is not gay. He married before age 25 (notice missing scripture between childhood and 33???) and lead a normal life as he ought to have. Appearace and reputation was everything back in the day. To live differently than expected, you would have never made it to age 33!!!

    January 5, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
    • Mary (Jesus's Mother)

      Uh, Joseph, honey, I've been meaning to tell you something....

      January 5, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • therealpeace2all

      @Mary (Jesus' Mother)

      LOL !!! :D

      Peace...

      January 5, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Biff (Jesus's best friend)

      Uh... I have something you should both know. Sit down. It's forbidden in God's book.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
  7. Jesus was not gay

    Did the Vatican do any testing itself to come to its "no mincing words" conclusion? They have a forensics lab now? Didn't know....wow.

    January 5, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
    • Kevin H

      Imagine for just a moment that this fragment IS authentic, that it was taken from either the 4th or 2nd century, imagine how the Catholic church would react. If Jesus married a woman AND that woman preached the Gospel AND God expected that she would then it would appear to negate the Church of Rome's assertion that the clergy should live "as Jesus lived".

      January 5, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
    • End Religion

      god does not exist.

      January 6, 2013 at 2:23 am |
  8. Sammy

    This whole thing is silly for several reasons. 1) Jesus was not an uncommon name. Was this written about Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus the Cobbler of Beersheba? Maybe the complete sentence was, "Jesus said to them, 'My wife, she never gives me a minute of peace.'" 2) If it was about Jesus of Nazareth, who wrote it? Was it one of the disciples or was it Harry the Bookie. "Jesus said to them, 'My wife will kill me if she finds out I lost my entire paycheck on the camel races.'" 3) If Jesus of Nazareth was married, does it change the essence of his story?

    January 5, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • The Janitor of God (I clean up his messes)

      It certainly does for those who say because he hung around with 12 guys he was gay.

      January 5, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • ecarlson1961

      This fragment is definitely about Jesus of Nazareth. However, since it dates from the 4th century, even in the unlikely event it is genuine, it is later than the four canonical gospels, as well as several other non-Canonical gospels.

      January 5, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Bet

      @ ecarlson1961

      And you know this...how? I don't even believe in Jeebus of Nazareth, but I'm not arrogant enough to say this is or isn't about him or that it's a fake. I'll wait for the people who are testing it for more information.

      January 5, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
  9. GetReal

    Mary, being a good Jewish mother...would have made sure Jesus had a isha shelkha!

    January 5, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
  10. Phill

    2000 years of BS through the window

    January 5, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
  11. The Janitor of God (I clean up his messes)

    I once know a woman who honestly thought the dinosaurs perished because there was no room for them on Noah's Ark. Yeah.... we're dealing with that kind of stupidity here.

    January 5, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • Phill

      They didn't survive because the door was too small for them

      January 5, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • Mohammad A Dar

      well Noah could have grabbed couple of dynasore eggs, what a dumb dynasore !!

      January 5, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
  12. YBP

    Jesus might as well have had a wife. Perhaps several...and they weren't real-life people either.

    January 5, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • theemptyone1

      They or she was likely as real and the fake Jesus of scripture is...

      January 5, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • Phill

      If he had a wife, he most likely asked to be nailed to the cross

      January 5, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
  13. Howdy, Cowbay

    The thing that really angers me about the Christians is that they're so self-rightrous. Back off. We don't need you to save us, and the image we see of you certainly doesn't want us to be anything like you.

    January 5, 2013 at 4:11 pm |
  14. YBP

    Let's let go of Jesus and his empty promises.

    There's only this life. Live for today. Be kind. Cooperate. Make every minute count. Wake up to reality. Stop dreaming of ancient notions of magic and mystery that are no longer true or relevant in this day and age.

    "Imagine all the people living for today."

    Oh, and read. Education is the remedy to the problem here.

    January 5, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
  15. Rogue351

    Jesus did not have a wife. Its not mentioned in the bible, so it CANNOT be true. The bible being the single most accurate book on the face of this earth, every single word meaning exactly what it says. No room what so every for interpretation. It's not like it was assembled of years and years, translated by many, used by rulers for control. It has to be true. Any method of carbon dating to prove otherwise is a lie spawned by satin to test your faith..............OMG how can you argue with this type of opinion.

    January 5, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • Howdy, Cowbay

      So slavery is okay, huh? How about selling you daughter into marriage for two goats? That okay too?

      January 5, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • ecarlson1961

      Rogue was obviously speaking sarcastically. Though the idea that satin is what deceives us was a novel concept, at least to me.

      January 5, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
    • Max

      Beware of the killer satin...sworn enemy of silk and chintz.

      January 5, 2013 at 5:41 pm |
    • DanBun

      Satin is also the enemy of cotton and polyester....

      January 5, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
    • Bet

      Satin and his minion, Sateen, are the sworn enemy of the Wrinkle Resistance in Bed Linens everywhere.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:58 pm |
    • Stan

      Three goats and a donkey and not an animal less.

      January 5, 2013 at 9:12 pm |
  16. gezus

    Christ the Power and Wisdom of God

    18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

    “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
    And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”[a]
    20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[b] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    January 5, 2013 at 3:58 pm |
    • Keeping It Real

      gezus,

      I'll bet you think that you are "wise" to believe that stuff, huh?

      It's turtles all that way down...

      January 5, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Oh my gosh! That changes everything! You mean your book says that everyone else is going to find your book and your beliefs silly and that it really means that they are special enough to get the revelation that you have and that you're right and they're wrong so be encouraged. Wow, I've never heard of a cult leader saying anything like that before.

      January 5, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • Keeping It Real

      * turtles all the way down

      January 5, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      It is interesting to note the different att itude between religion and science. Science INVITES criticism and ASKS for it in every way possible because it is by that very mechanism of criticism that it hones its theories to be more clearly defined and more narrowly appointed.

      January 5, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
    • theemptyone1

      My Gwad is stronger and wiser than your Gwad.

      January 5, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
  17. Reality

    Again, with or without a "Jesus-wife":

    The Apostles'/Agnostics’ Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
    and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen
    (references used are available upon request)

    January 5, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
  18. Aezel

    You're right, it's a parable, written by a primitive society. Trying to read into some deeper meaning contained in it is like a modern engineer trying to pretend there is something mysterious about a simple lever. Grow up, stop deriving your morality from barbaric nonsense and maybe mankind can get along with each other a bit better.

    January 5, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • lol??

      Aezel sayz,
      "You're right, it's a parable, written by a primitive society.........barbaric nonsense......".......... Dudette, modern h0m0 saps are more efficient, practiced, and sophisticated in their use of barbaric nonsense facilitated by technology and Athena's love for the use of the Hegelian Dialectic. They picked it up in the garden. It's a progressive and Socialist tactic to its core.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
    • Max

      lol??, you're a queef. A vinegar and water solution will take care of that Eve.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
    • lol??

      Mob tactic.You learned it from the Sodom and Gomorrah story.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:57 pm |
    • Max

      Typical Biblenazi. I can smell you through the screen.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:01 pm |
    • lol??

      Well max, that's close to a "vision". It'll wear off.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:36 pm |
  19. Robert Brown

    Ok, I received some good responses to my ideas on creation for those who have objections to the God of Abraham. No agreement whatsoever, but some good responses anyway. If you’re interested, it is on page 11. Next in our objection series is the Garden of Eden.

    If you could accept the first chapter of genesis is a parable or allegory, or not, then let’s proceed to the Garden of Eden. Regardless of how you believe humans developed, at some point, you get to what we today understand as humans, a very distinct, intelligent, self-conscious, thoughtful, species when compared to all related species.

    If you view the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve as a parable about an example pair of the first humans to obtain awareness and their interaction with this creative force and their development of an understanding of right (righteousness, thought and behavior God approves of, thought and behavior that humans esteem) and wrong (sin, behavior God hates, or the human guilt complex if you like).

    In the parable we have this transition from being unaware or being just happy go lucky smart animals, to awareness, something, somehow, removed from the animal kingdom. So, regardless of how you feel that developed, it is presented in an instantaneous realization brought about by eating the fruit from the forbidden tree. The fruit and the tree represent this awareness or knowledge.

    Was the sin taking and eating from the tree, developing the awareness or knowledge, that first lie they told God, or the desire to know more, which could be akin to pride?

    A side note here ladies, if you look at it from this context, women developed superior intelligence first, then gave it to, or taught men.

    If you go along those lines of thought you have to deal with the serpent. Could this serpent introduced into the story be the desire for knowledge? Why would it, this desire, be considered a bad thing by the creator, innocence lost?

    “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”

    “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.”

    As parents, do we not endeavor to protect the innocence of our children, and as children don’t we desire to be a grown up? It could be that the serpent is the desire or pride, a separation or a want to go in a direction contrary to the will of the creator, innocence lost.

    Next we will consider the flood.

    January 5, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
    • Aezel

      You're right, it's a parable, written by a primitive society. Trying to read into some deeper meaning contained in it is like a modern engineer trying to pretend there is something mysterious about a simple lever. Grow up, stop deriving your morality from barbaric nonsense and maybe mankind can get along with each other a bit better.

      January 5, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Aezel,
      It could be a parable. I already knew God before I had these thoughts, so whether it is parable or just exactly the way it went down, I am ok with it.

      Is God not in the realm of possibilities for you?

      January 5, 2013 at 3:52 pm |
    • Jill

      Robert Brown, resort! There is no caveat to the Klein bottle, and there will be no gold watch for the unspoken zero.

      Focus your nose on the test tube. Stay succulently upon yourself as usual and fear not the coming of the essential kangaroo. Strawberries are your incidental chemistry. Present the fulcrum in advance of the gypsum cookie, for as the tree is combed, so goes the predicate. Expand quietly but do not relish.

      Whether or not you agree with the plumber, harvest away ye hearties. Kalabash in Friebourg but not in spanners while it's raining. Bring out the mustard but flap flap flap until takeoff. Why would you say such a thing in the presence of the substrate? 64. 1112. Welcome to the new sandwich lumberyard. Bus stops follow movement, or do they?

      The impediment to your posterior is large but can be dissected with chestnuts. Obermeyer. Glasnost and shallot cookies will do the main job when a steamshovel is too distant for pomegranate.

      And remember, never ever miss an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
    • Fallacy Spotting 101

      Post by 'Robert Brown' is Begging the Question and is an instance of a Slippery Slope fallacy.

      http://fallacyfiles.org

      January 5, 2013 at 6:15 pm |
    • Bet

      @Robert Brown

      "Ok, I received some good responses to my ideas on creation for those who have objections to the God of Abraham. No agreement whatsoever, but some good responses anyway. If you’re interested, it is on page 11. Next in our objection series is the Garden of Eden."

      Blah, blah, blahdee blah blah. Blah blahblahblah. Blahdee blahdee blah blahdee blah.

      "Next we will consider the flood".

      Great balls of fire, you are a pompous ass.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:53 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Thanks for the laugh, Robert.

      January 5, 2013 at 6:57 pm |
    • lol??

      Jill, I hope that never makes it onto a scrap.It would keep the experts employed for decades.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      He really is. That's why Jill's posts to him are so hilarious and made more so because Robert doesn't grok them.

      January 5, 2013 at 7:03 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      tallulah13,
      You are welcome.

      January 5, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
  20. Aezel

    Well considering the Bible is about 99% nonsense it doesn't really matter if this is old or not. It probably dates to around 200-400 AD when creative gospel writing and elaboration were in full swing amongst the various cults that eventually developed into modern Christianity. Probably just a work of gospel fiction that didn't make the cut for the Bible.

    January 5, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.