Editor’s note: Johnnie Moore is the author of Dirty God (#DirtyGod). He is a professor of religion and vice president at Liberty University. Keep track of him @johnnieM .
By Johnnie Moore, Special to CNN
(CNN) - Jesus was a lot more like you than you think, and a lot less clean cut than this iconic image of him that floats around culture.
You know the image. It’s the one where Jesus is walking like he’s floating in robes of pristine white followed by birds singing some holy little ditty. He’s polished, manicured, and clearly – God.
But despite the Christian belief that Jesus was both fully God and fully man, Jesus was a rather dirty God.
He was the “earthly” son of a carpenter, and life in the first-century was both more lurid and unfinished than our collective religious memory seems to recall.
To that end, I suggested recently to several astounded colleagues of mine that Jesus actually had to go to the bathroom, perhaps even on the side of the road between Capernaum and Jerusalem.
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What tipped them over the edge was when I insinuated that Jesus, like almost every other human being living in the rural world in that time, might have even had dysentery on an occasion or two.
Someone said, “You mean that Jesus might have had severe diarrhea?”
“Yep,” I replied, “That’s exactly what I mean.”
It seems like an obvious statement if you believe that Jesus was “fully God” and “fully man” (as most evangelicals believe and call the Incarnation), but to some of us it seems in the least, inappropriate, and at the most, sacrilege, to imagine Jesus in this way. We might believe that God was also man, but we picture him with an ever-present halo over his head.
But, actually, the Jesus of the Bible was more human than most people are conditioned to think.
I call this the dirty side of Jesus. He was grittier, and a lot more like us than maybe we believe, and that’s one of the reasons why so many thousands of people followed him so quickly.
They could relate to him.
He was the teacher from a small town who knew and understood the economic insecurity that was common in the first century. Times must have been rather tough for Jesus at points in his life, for he even spoke of being homeless, having to sleep on the ground with no roof over his head.
He also knew what it was like to have his message rejected and how it felt to be misunderstood. Jesus was regarded with such little significance in his hometown that one of his critics once remarked sardonically, “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son?” Jesus eventually had to move to different city (Capernaum) because his teachings so infuriated the people living in his hometown that they drove him out of Nazareth and even tried to throw him off a cliff.
'Jesus Wife' fragment gets more testing, delays article
The real Jesus had dirt underneath his fingernails and calluses on his hands. He probably smelled badly from sweating profusely in the Judean sun on his long hikes to Jerusalem, and Jesus was, without a doubt, rumored to be a hypocrite or absolutely mad for all the time he spent with prostitutes and those afflicted with leprosy.
Not exactly have a clean-cut image.
He had a rather shady reputation.
Some people thought he was a revolutionary. The religious leaders called him a heretic, and others even accused him of being a drunkard and a glutton - in no small part because of the vagabond group of disciples he had with him. No serious religious leader of his day would have ever recruited such people.
For his core 12 disciples, Jesus included a tough-as-nails, bombastic fisherman (Peter), a chief tax collector named Matthew (the most hated popular figure of the time), an eventual traitor who was stealing money out of the offering bucket (Judas), a prolific doubter (Thomas), two jocks nicknamed the “Sons of Thunder” (James and John) and Simon the Zealot, a member of a radical political party which believed in using violence to kick out the Romans.
Jesus was sarcastic, too.
He often snapped back at the Pharisees with a tone fit for late-night television, and in a terribly embarrassing moment for all those around him, Jesus even called these respected religious teachers “snakes” that were probably sons of “Satan.”
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That’s not exactly the behavior of a sweet, self-help teacher with a halo over his head.
It’s the behavior of a frustrated man who might also be divine, but sure knows how it feels for annoying people to get under his skin.
Christians believe that Jesus chose to be born fully human, too, but why?
Lots of theologians have laid out opinions over the centuries, and in their opining they have tried once again to hijack Jesus’ humanity by defining it in philosophical terms. I believe it’s simpler than the philosophy and church councils and centuries of argument.
The brilliance of Christianity is the image of a God, named Jesus, arrived with dirty hands.
Jesus came in a time period when Greco-Roman gods were housed in gigantic temples and portrayed with superhuman powers and with superhuman physiques. Gods were believed to be far away from people on their mountains or hemmed up in their sanctuaries.
Jesus arrived in defiance of this prevailing imagery.
Jesus didn’t come flinging lightning bolts from a mountaintop, or playing politics in Rome. He came to live in a typical Middle Eastern village called Nazareth that was home to a couple hundred typical people. He didn’t decide to brandish his power, but to spend most of his time with the powerless and disenfranchised. And when he started a religious movement that reshaped history, he did it in the most profound and anticlimatic way:
He let himself be killed, and then he busted open a tomb.
In Jesus we meet a Savior who understood the desire to sleep just a few more hours, and who had to control his temper sometimes. In Jesus we find a God we can relate to because he chose to relate to us.
He was the God who became dirty so that the world’s souls might be made clean.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Johnnie Moore.
@Edward and other low IQ posters:
For the sixth time, the term agnostic Christian is an oxymoron. You can't be a true Christian and agnostic about whether or not God exists, or Spirituality. If you hold a position that you think God may or may not exist, but you can't prove it, you are not a Christian. The fatal part of that position is thinking that God may not exist. That means you have no faith and faith is the currency of believers. Hey, you can say whatever you want, but it won't change the reality.
By the way, these so called "agnostic Christians" are blatantly ignoring the fact that God does give proof. The proof is in His word and that fact that he sent His Son as a sign for everyone. So, to say that you don't have proof is a load of BS. Get off the lazy boy recliner and read the Bible.
By your definition, nobody is a christian, because no christian can "prove it." Are you really saying that you're not a christian because you can't prove it?
But yes, you can be an agnostic christian because you can believe a thing to be true without knowledge that it is true. For example, I believe that you are a human, but I don't have direct knowledge that you are a human.
I notice that you call yourself "Aesops" instead of "Aesop". Is that because the fables attributed to Aesop may have been written by various early Greek writers?
Do you use this same principle when talking about your NT books - Matthews? Marks? Lukes? and Johns?
Your way of believing or no way of believing, right?
Even if you ignore the bit about proof, if you don't fully embrace God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, –you are subscribed to a belief system that is outside of Christianity, and hence, NOT a Christian. This is a basic tenet of any reputable Christian Church irrespective of denomination.
So, yes. It's only three letters.
If you say that you do not have a heart level proof of Christianity, that is outside of Christianity. God gave proof, and it was through the resurrection of His Son, and the unfolding story of historical redemptive history found in the Bible.
Let's try it this way: Y-E-S spells......?
" story of historical redemptive history found in the Bible."
What is the verified evidence that anyone has ever been, or will ever be, "redeemed"?
So, by your definitiion, a person is only a christian if they believe AND ALSO believe that they have "proof" in whatever brain mechanism makes that decision? What a weird definition of "christian."
You absolutely have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and on the third day was raised bodily from the grave. There is no room to dilute this fact with agnostic thinking, or claims for lack of proof as it is written in God's word, and a sign for everyone.
Aesops, you're an idiot. A person can believe without claiming to have knowledge. I BELIEVE you are a human, but I have no direct knowledge that you are a human. Do you see?
Belief and knowledge are not the same thing. Gnosticism deals with knowledge. An agnostic does not claim to have knowledge but he might or might not believe. Theism deals with belief. An atheist does not believe whether or not he has any knowledge. You're so stupid that you don't know the difference between the two words.
Yet your jesus didn't rise from his tomb. His tomb was empty because his followers feasted on his corpse then hauled off his bones to wear as trophies just like you do with your "dead god on a stick" jewelry. This is, of course, only if you buy into the bible...
John 6:51-58: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?" 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven; not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
One of the basic definitions of a Christian is a person that has come to saving KNOWLEDGE of Christ.
So, to say that you are an agnostic Christian does not make any sense at all.
By the way, you are being very rude and obviously losing the argument. I do not wish for you to respond to my comments since you have failed and resorted to name calling.
One of the basic definitions of a Christian is a person that has come to believe the DELUSION of Christ.
Aesop, did you finally get back from your shift handing out mints in men's rooms? Do you work a specific men's room or do they shift you around to various toilets around town?
Aesops, you don't understand the difference between knowledge and belief, and that proves your stupidity. A person can believe in something without knowledge of it. I believe that there is a footprint on the moon, but I don't know it for sure. In much the same way, a person can believe in your god but not know it--in fact, it's impossible for any christian to "know" that he is correct. You're all agnostic believers regardless of the fact that so many of you lie and claim to "know" what you really don't.
It's "Aesops" like if someone had the nickname "Platos" for some weird reason.
I'm sorry, "Aesops", but your assertions regarding the compatibility of agnosticism and Christianity are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "EPIC FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:
I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...
"Aesops", I notice you always post in the same time frame as the entity "fred". The entity "fred" makes similar unfounded assertions. If you are able to find a solution to avoiding unfounded assertions, then you should share this solution with the entity "fred".
Transmission correction: in avoiding unfounded
It's funny how you are claiming that I'm confusing knowledge and belief, when in reality it is YOU confusing knowledge with proof.
When a person becomes a Christian, they do so through the saving KNOWLEDGE of Christ which get incorporated into their faith and belief system, and through Baptism and infusion of the Holy Spirit continues to cause regeneration in the life of a person until they die, and inherit eternal life.
You have continued to level insults against me, and I'm not going to dwell here any longer, but at least Bob, and Fred agree with me.
I'll leave you with this parting Scripture:
For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten Son, therefore whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but inherit everlasting life.
Me paraphrasing a few Scripture:
For Jesus did not come to the world to condemn it, but to save it. For God wishes for all to come to saving KNOWLEDGE of Christ not wishing for any to perish.
one man's agnosticism is another Christian's rationalization
one Christian's tenets are another Christian's blasphemy
University of Minnesota researchers unveil first artificial enzyme created by evolution in a test tube
You know this writer seems to think he is the only one who realizes that Jesus was fully man as well as God. What a surprise. We know that Jesus is fully man and as a man lived his life like us. The difference is that we believe the scriptures accurately report his sinless nature and his divinity. Even the scriptures state that he was made to be my man.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The author is mistaken when he states we do not understand our God. He obviously does not if he just realized this. Sometimes those that call themselves experts are just people who think to highly of themselves. Put a couple of letters in front of your name and you now are an authority.
Even the lowliest farm boy can be a better expositor of the scriptures than a seminarian.
If you subscribe to any religious BS then you are suffering from a delusion no different than any other cult. Take your thumb out of your mouth and grow up.
Any atheists please, who can give a credible answer to these questions I'm reposting since those I directed them to has no answer?
According to evolutionary theories, living things continued to reproduce as they became ever more complex. At some stage, though, the female of a number of species had to develop reproductive cells requiring fertilization by a male with complementary reproductive cells. In order to supply the proper number of chromosomes to the offspring, each parent’s reproductive cells undergo a remarkable process called meiosis, whereby cells from each parent are left with half the usual number of chromosomes. This process prevents the offspring from having too many chromosomes.
Of course, the same process would have been needed for other species. How, then, did the “first mother” of each species become capable of reproducing with a fully developed “first father”? How could both of them have suddenly been able to halve the number of chromosomes in their reproductive cells in the manner needed to produce a healthy offspring with some characteristics of both parents? And if these reproductive features developed gradually, how would the male and female of each species have survived while such vital features were still only partially formed?
In even a single species, the odds against this reproductive interdependence coming about by chance are beyond measuring. The chance that it arose in one species after another defies reasonable explanation. Can a theoretical process of evolution explain such complexity? How could accidental, random, purposeless events result in such intricately interrelated systems? Living things are full of characteristics that show evidence of foresight and planning—pointing to an intelligent Planner.
Many scholars have come to such a conclusion. For example, mathematician William A. Dembski wrote that the “intelligent design” evident in “observable features of the natural world . . . can be adequately explained only by recourse to intelligent causes.” Molecular biochemist Michael Behe sums up the evidence this way: “You can be a good Catholic and believe in Darwinism. Biochemistry has data-before-text="p. 7">made it increasingly difficult, however, to be a thoughtful scientist and believe in it.”
My apologies, the last sentence from the above posting should read:
"You can be a good Catholic and believe in Darwinism. Biochemistry has made it increasingly difficult, however, to be a thoughtful scientist and believe in it.”
There is not an easy one-paragraph answer for you on this. A new species does not just suddenly pop up with one new individual. Have you ever heard of hybrids? Do you know about mitochondrial DNA?
Maybe you can read here for a better (and longer) explanation:
There are myriad chemical reactions that need to be precisely staged to form DNA, the building block of life. Three decades ago Dr. Frank Salisbury of Utah State University, U.S.A., calculated the odds of the spontaneous formation of a basic DNA molecule essential for the appearance of life. The calculations revealed the probability to be so tiny that it is considered mathematically impossible. (He assumed that this molecule had the opportunity to develop by natural chemical reactions on 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1020) “hospitable” planets over a period of four billion years. What are the chances that a single DNA molecule formed? By his estimate, one in 10415).
Complexity is especially evident when living organisms have complex parts that would be useless without other complex parts.
University of Minnesota researchers unveil first artificial enzyme created by evolution in a test tube.
Jan. 30 2013
All of you have been rude and made very stupid comments to me. I tried to do quality evangelism, but because of your senseless comments the discussion degenerated into a sales pitch for fire insurance. I don't have time for this BS.
What do you expect? Did you really expect easy going? Atheists will try every trick in the book to get you riled, what is wrong with you that you would expect civility and acceptance from them? If you know your Bible there is a very clear passage that Jesus says what business does light have with darkness so don't expect applause when you say something right.
Your not here to convert atheists but speak to brothers and sisters and share so anything they say is really worthless. They are all off topic and so not relevant really.
never mind these atheists, they have nothing up there, that is why they are called 'none's
@aesops: "I tried to do quality evangelism"
Hey Brainiac, perhaps if you spoke above a 7th grade level one might take you seriously. As it stands you're just another "1000% smarter than us" idiot who wants respect for his childish notion of an imaginary king sky buddy. Get back to handing out mints in the latrine, as your stinky posts are more suited to it. Now run away in embarrassment as your momma is calling.
This idiot says he's trying to do quality evangelism?? LMAO. What an uneducated troll. (A cursory view of his/her posts below reveal the lunacy.)
quality evangelism? you are a blathering idiot. go home, boy
If you are an atheist or aggie, then you are NOT a Christian. I'm baffled at why so many people are attaching me over this simple statement.
Not a Christian? Boy that's a relief. And I was afraid the atheists wouldn't like me. ;-)
Because you're partly wrong. Agnostic and christian are not mutually exclusive. Neither is agnostic and atheist.
Look here: Let me clarify, you can't be a Christian and agnostic about whether or not God, Jesus existed, or was the Son of God, etc...
That's just not true Aesops. I guess you don't understand what agnostic means.
I'm not trying to do good evangelism on here. I'm just responding to stupid comments,and correcting them too.
How can a 3rd rate clodhopper like yourself "correct" others' comments? I get the feeling you couldn't correct the English paper of an average 5th grader. You have however proven to me that you likely are at least capable of handing out towels and mints in a local men's room. Be sure to wear a bow tie.
I know enough about the Bible to tell you that athies and aggies are not Christians. I don't know what authority you have,but II suggest that you go back to grade school level Sunday School.
One thing's for sure, a Rhodes scholar you are not.
One thing is for sure, I'm a lot smarter than you, and more of an authority too.
By the way, I'll have you know that the Rhodes scholarship is nothing compared to my current status and profession.
Sure, sure. Friend, you can barely form a sentence. I can't imagine what task you'd be suited for other than maybe men's room attendant. I assume you can hand out towels and mints?
Don't let Aesops' condescension troll you. She has a need to feel superior. Godlike, almost.
In a nuanced way, I'm not qualified to say who is a Christian among believers and those who have accepted Christ.
However, make no mistake, anyone who as even the basic understanding of the Bible knows that athies, and aggies are NOT Christians. Ultimately, this is for God to judge, but I'm giving you the basics of what is in the Bible.
Sure, telling a person that they are not a Christian is not a way to encourage them to become a believer. However, as Christians we have a responsibility to upbraid atheis and aggies in false ways of belief, less they go to hell.
Look, dimwit, you just contradicted yourself in the span of one post. You are not supposed to judge others, this is God's job not yours. You are NOT instructed to find fault with people because you think they're going to hell. All you're told to do is proselytize: spread the word. It is nothing but your own arrogance which attempts to find fault with anyone. You're sinning left and right while preaching to us the wonders of your religion - this is not a great sales tactic.
I'm not trying to sell you anything, and trust me, I'm 1000% more intelligent than you will ever be in this lifetime or the one to come.
"1000% more intelligent" ?
You certainly do not show much intelligence in the math department.
It is a casual way of exaggerating or saying 10X. Who's looking stupid now!!!
It's easy to be an agnostic christian because it's easy to believe without having knowledge. For example, I believe that you are a human being, but I have no knowledge that that is fact. You might be an alien. In regards to you being a human, I am a believer, but agnostic since I don't positively know or claim to know.
Let me clarify, you can't be a Christian and agnostic about whether or not God, Jesus existed, or was the Son of God, etc...
False again Aesops. Start learning basic English. Then go read about agnosticism.
@sam stoned (AKA Spiritual cancer)
FAITH and LOVE are the currency of Christianity. If you don't have faith in Christ, and love him supremely, you are NOT a Christian. If you do not fully embrace the Gospel, you are NOT a Christian. If you've accepted Christ at a thought (Gnosis) and intellectual level (and not the heart) only, you are NOT a Christian. In short, you can't think your way to heaven. Faith means that you believe in something that you don't know in an evidential way. Jesus has already paid the price for everyone, but we have to have faith in Him, and Love.
Aesops (Pompous fvck): If you are any indication, snivelling cowardice is the currency of Christianity.
who the fvck are you to determine who is a true christian?
Unfortunatey you are not qualified to verify who is and is not a Christian. Worry about your own relationship with God.
The criteria for Christianity is not determined by me, but the Man upstairs. You should read the Bible including the Old Testament and New Testament. In the Old Testament, many people were given direct proof of God's existence through various acts of nature, and direct dictation. However, what happened under this system? The people were compelled to do what God had told them to do, or else face severe consequences. In many cases, this meant they got the edge of the sword for disobedience. To whom much is given, much is required. So, you go around this blog asking for direct evidence of God, and proof without having the currency which is faith. Do you think God will give you the sign that you want? If so, will you believe Him, and do what he says? Are you willing to pay the price if you disobey direct order from God without a mediator? The beauty of Christianity is that Christ took on the sin and condemnation when he was nailed to the judgement tree. All we have to do is accept Him, and live according to His word. In Christ, there is no condemnation for Christians.
Your god never existed. The bible is a known fraud. Time to take your thumb out of your mouth and grow up.
I disagree with you. Don't pass judgement on Bible since you have not read the book.
Oh, lol, and now the troll assumes what other people have read.
Athies, and aggies on this comment board are out there like hungry lions on the prowl seeking to whom they might devour with destruction of the soul, Spiritual cancer, lies, and ultimately eternal damnation.
It is absolutely, positively, 100% IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to be an agnostic. If you don't fully embrace Christ and cling to Him, you are NOT a Christian, and will face eternal punishment. Even Jesus said, "If you are not for me, you are against me".
It seems like your best technique on this comment board is to pump others up with bold faced lies.
Aesops: Nonsense. Gnosticism has to do with knowledge, theism has to do with faith.
Bold faced lies?
You are a moron.
Fvck you and your empty proxy threats
Aesops: Your god is a vindictive, petty pr1ck, and so are you.
No, I'm not.
I should have scanned through all your posts first. Obviously you are both a troll and an idiot.
And this guy is a professor of religion?
He either doesn't know, or fails to mention, that nothing was written about Jesus for the first 100 years after his death.
But of course he teaches at Liberty University where they think the earth is 6000 years old.
What else can we expect?
Yep it takes a prof of religion to tell us the wisdom of Jesus having diarrhea.
And Liberty U is full of disingenuous academics who have to lie for a living because its almost impossible to get a job as a theologian if you advertize any critical academic reason towards your specialize field. Its the only academic field where the exsperts are required to say" Well if it doesn't make sense then we should not question it."
Atheism and agnosticism are Spiritual cancers that corrode the soul and lead to eternal condemnation.
I see you are still blathering on like a snivelling sycophant.
Fvck you and your eternal damnation
And, for the record, d-bag, you can be both an agnostic and a christian
I agree that Atheism is not healthy for the soul, and I agree that Jesus died for our sins; however...you are not qualified to classify who is saved and who is not saved. You are turning more people away from Jesus with you judgemental comments than bringing them towards Jesus.
Worry about your own faith and your own works and your light will natural encourage others.
Also you may want to look more deeply into Christian history... and possibly read the bible with a more open mind...and even read other non-Christian religioush and philisophical texts
OK so this dude doesn't know anything about agnosticism, and now I'm wondering it the idiot even knows much about atheism or Christianity. What a troll.
Different kinds of fundamentalist Christians now as much as ever are arguing with each other with as much sense and rationality as a flock of chickens. They can't support their beliefs by any reasonable means, yet they deem themselves fit to judge others from those beliefs or attempt to put others in the midst of their religious infighting. Their beliefs have a very weak foundation and are not consistent, ergo the over 30,000 different denominations.
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
While the statements are not all lies they are out of context and most of our forefathers who wrote the our laws were in fact pastors. Most even Thomas Jefferson was although some argue him being a deist did more to promote the Bible and Christian values than most all of the others.
just promoted values that some Christians also hold. He had his own bible of only 46 pages.
I am not out of context – prove it!
I agree with your view point, it is historical fact. But the question is, 'Are they true Christians like those of the 1st century Christians?
2 Peter 2:1-3
1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.
The above verses explains why there are so many different Christian faiths. But only one is the true faith. One has to examie the Bible to see whether they are living a lifestyle that's in harmony with the 1st century Christians.
4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.
As you can see in the above verse, just one hope, one baptism, one faith. Again, the question is which Christian faith is the correct one?
Visit http://www.jw.org, examine our beliefs and the scriptures, you will see the truth, and it will set you free!
Atheism is a Spiritual cancer that destroys the sou and leads to eternal damnation.
It's more likely that they could see through the lies that more people are starting to wake up to again now. That early apologists had to say that pagan stories were a pre-emptive strike by Satan (written in advance of, but oddly similar to the gospels) is one of many tell-tale signs of fables that should have been abandoned long ago.
Aesops....threatening people who do not believe in eternal damnation with eternal damnation is logical cancer.
But, by all means, bloviate some more
Here's one from the real Aesop:
“An Ass put on a Lion's skin and went
About the forest with much merriment,
Scaring the foolish beasts by brooks and rocks,
Till at last he tried to scare the Fox.
But Reynard, hearing from beneath the mane
That Raucous voice so petulant and vain,
Remarked. O' Ass, I too would run away,
But that I know your old familiar bray'.
That's just the way with asses, just the way.”
I guess Jefferson you forgot these quotes not to mention going along with what is said here the jefferson Bible is all the words Jesus spoke. In today's Bibles it would be all the red letters.
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.
The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.
I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.
I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government
Bob, we're all out to get you and take away your citizenship.
Jefferson's many writings show that he thought highly of Jesus, but that he rarely focused on the supernatural aspect of him. Most of the Deists of that time didn't and often refuted the supernatural Christ. It is also important to note the dates of their writings on this subject because many of them became more Deist with age.
The problem with religion is the organization... the organization is of men. But this is not evidence against the existence of God but merely evidence of the duality of nature.
Humans must organize to stay alive (governments), and those organizations do both bad and good, construction and destruction. The Church is no different.
Don't let the Church effect your personal relationship with God.
It seems the revelation of truth translates to intimidation and hurt to atheists.Truth real truth is not based on the world either, because in the the world there are many lesser truths and time and tide change truth. Science has truth till a new theory comes along and truth changes. But no matter how much you rail against real truth it it will not change its a fact unchangeable unstoppable since the foundation of the world. The way God created us we belong to the human race and as such we are subject to life's rules. We are born we die and we go to our appropriate spot. But there is one facet of this existence that is uniquely our own, our choices. We do have a will and the ability to decide in this life what we allow in to our thoughts, actions and acceptance. Not any spirit can violate this will and with the laws of man it also is not easily violated. So the ultimate decision is ours fully, wholly, ours. So to this end we will in the end reap our rewards or punishment. This is the way God set things up it is also scary to know that we do have the ability to store each moment of life in our soul. Every word every minute every thought all can be played back like a recorder at the appropriate time. Science is in agreement with this and we see not only near death experiences but people who go through trauma seeing their whole life flash before their eyes. When we die it will not be God that condemns you it will be your own words your own thoughts and actions that will be played back and reveal all of your life’s secrets and this will be in front of the White throne of judgment. So what am I really saying be careful what you speak and say. Understand that you and the other atheists may be here for a witness of God calling you. That the power of life and death is in the tongue. Also that someday believe it or not you will stand in front of a all powerful God and He will render judgment on you as well as all who have lived. But your defense will fall away when your own words will be played back to condemn you, not His. So make sure of your end make sure that all the stories of people with near death experiences are not true make sure that your words support and not crush for someday there will be a time to pay what you have sown and it may be with your own spirit, make sure. I know and live life with this in mind and it doesn’t matter if you don’t believe, you are still subject to the rules or truth that God has set up no one is different and no one will get by. We are all slaves to something either our own passions and desires or a country or laws or someone else, I choose God for He is good and knows the beginning from the end and is interested in our best.
You are stupid.
What a moment when Jesus was in front of Pilate and Pilate asked Jesus what is truth. What did he see in Jesus that allowed him to ask this question? What a awesome moment when Pilate saw something and his eyes were opened and he realized that he may be wrong and was afraid. What a moment when he went back, asked his wife what to do, the answer confirmed what he saw in Jesus as truth. Yet his decision was not for God but for man, and possessions and his position with Rome. What a day when truth comes knocking at your door and you realize that you didn't know the truth yet make a decision based on a lie. From that day the only comfort he had was denial, but when the wolf is waiting at the door and you have already been sold the price will be paid.
I'm sorry, "Bob", but "God" is an element of mythology, therefore your repeated assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "EPIC FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:
1. Slavery is an abomination, it is sad your would put that on your God.
2. Decision making is fundamental, for whoever you are.
3. It is best to choose words wisely, unless gaining the status of "Fool" is your goal.
4. Truth IS. Your group has no special claim to it.
5. Perception of the Environment is the Answer. The Answer to: What is Life?
Again, you're stupid.
Amen to that!!!
12 Therefore do not let sin continue to rule as king in YOUR mortal bodies that YOU should obey their desires. 13 Neither go on presenting YOUR members to sin as weapons of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, also YOUR members to God as weapons of righteousness. 14 For sin must not be master over YOU, seeing that YOU are not under law but under undeserved kindness
16 Do YOU not know that if YOU keep presenting yourselves to anyone as slaves to obey him, YOU are slaves of him because YOU obey him, either of sin with death in view or of obedience with righteousness in view?
23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
My, you sure have a verbose imagination! You seem determined to "show" that atheism is some complicated, subversive, twisted evil agenda, that seeks to obscure some sort of "ultimate truth" that ONLY YOU know and understand!
Atheism is VERY SIMPLE! There is just NO RATIONAL nor LOGICAL reason to believe in imaginary "magical" beings, so we simply do not believe in your myth! There is NO complicated "EVIL AGENDA" designed by "Satan" to make you unhappy!
There are only gullible people like yourself, who have been suckered into the ancient, illogical, stagnant mythology of magical thinking and others, like me, who choose to pursue the scientific method and spend the rest of my life improving my own knowledge with new discoveries and participating in the great modern renaissance of mankind! You are perfectly welcome to remain in the darkness of ancient ignorance if you desire, but the rest of us will proceed without you into the 21st century!
And you believe you came from rocks, a pile of trash that was struck by lightning, a organic soup, or apes, which one is it?
All based on theories, nothing factual. All the experiments done by scientist keeps disproving evolution and confirming the Genesis account and many other parts of the Bible. Many scientist are jumping off the evolution boat because its falling apart.
Belief in a form of spontaneous generation can be traced back for centuries. In the 17th century C.E., even respected men of science, including Francis Bacon and William Harvey, accepted the theory. However, by the 19th century Louis Pasteur and other scientists had seemingly dealt it a deathblow, having proved by experiments that life comes only from previous life. Nevertheless, out of necessity, evolutionary theory assumes that long ago microscopic life must somehow have arisen spontaneously from nonliving matter.
In case it makes a difference in praying:
1. In Hebrew, it is a "Y" sound.
Once upon a time, the letter "J" was pronounced like a "Y" is today.
That is why the English Bibles and Gospels stuck in many J's as in Judea, Jerusalem, Elijah, and Jesus.
In Hebrew these are: Yehuda, Yerushalyim, Elyihahu, and Yeshua.
The English pronounciation of the letter J changed but the spellings did not. So, English speakers began mis-pronouncing all of these Biblical words and names.
Have fun praying, and maybe incorporate some of these new/old terms if you like.
Praying for someone, is better than preying on someone.
Yes, it is very important to get the name correct when praying. Like delivering a letter through the post office, we wouldn't want the prayer to go astray and land in the mental mailbox of the wrong sky buddy by accident.
Here’s a simple way to understand life and Spirituality:
WHY we live is because of God, WHAT we do with our lives, and HOW we live our lives determines WHERE we go when we die, and WHO we will live with for all of eternity.
"... HOW we live our lives determines WHERE we go when we die, and WHO we will live with for all of eternity."
What is your verified evidence that this afterlife really happens?
Spinning more fables, Aesops?
WHY is God, WHAT and HOW is you, WHEN and WHERE is you, the enemy and God.
blah, blah, blah
Actually, WHY and WHEN is God, WHAT and HOW are you, WHERE is you, GOD, and, depending on the outcome, the enemy too.
you are making no sense. put down the bong
Is WHO gonna huff and puff and blow our WHAT down if we do WHAT it wants WHEN it wants?
Another of Aesops "fractured fables" (from Rocky and his Friends).
WhichGod: "And now for something you'll REALLY like"
Hmm, Yes, I heard similar fairy tales as a child back when I believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but most of us grew out of those childish notions and we eventually became adults and joined the real world! I guess some of us never outgrew those childish fairy tales...
WHO is on first, WHAT is on second, I DON'T KNOW – third base.
Physically dirty but spiritually clean.
Your Jesus never existed, dirty or clean.
Jesus/God (whom has existed before time) chose to be Earth-born into a human body into a poor family for the very purpose of lowering Himself to our level - to even the level of "the least of us", to show us that He sympathizes with all of us, understands us, and truly loves us - everything that we are, just as we are - even though He is this awesome, amazing being, so advanced compared to us. Then, He led a sinless life so that he could die as a pure sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins - sins being the moral errors in living that we choose to make in our weakness. The fact that he rose from the dead afterward to return to Heaven was the final proof He gave us that Jesus is God.
Exists before time?
Wow. You actually believe that?
You just gotta poop on everyones party right sammy boy? Get the stick outta your ass and let them believe what they wish. You know statistically, atheists are more likely to shove a view down someones throat more often then anyone of any faith.
A religion is a view. That time has always existed is current science. This is why you hear all the hoopla now about god existing outside our dimension, because religion must continue to push god into the gaps in our knowledge. Now that we know time always existed you have to push god into another dimension for the scam to continue. Get with the times.
"Jesus/God (whom has existed before time) chose to be Earth-born into a human body"
He chose nothing. Your god never existed, and we're all born here because this is the planet we're on, doofus. We don't choose a planet, nitwit. What other would he have "chosen"? What other creature would he have chosen to be born into, for crying out loud?
"into a poor family for the very purpose of lowering Himself to our level"
Well I suppose it is nice to know you believe money makes the person. What a horrible person you are. Suffering with a relatively recent Wealth Cult are you?
"to even the level of "the least of us"
What is "the least"? Money? Disabilities? Age? Morally corrupt? I would think in Jeebus' eyes the "least" of us would be a reprehensibly un-nice person since Jeebus would have know money has nothing to do with making someone "good" or "bad". Of course, since his daddy r@ped a 13 year old to have him and capriciously kills entire groups of people, maybe Jeebus should have been born as his own tyrannical daddy.
"to show us that He sympathizes with all of us, understands us, and truly loves us"
He doesn't love anything. He kills on a whim. He killed everything on the planet during the flood just because he got up on the wrong side of the celestial bed that morning.
"everything that we are, just as we are – even though He is this awesome, amazing being, so advanced compared to us."
What is so advanced? That he murders anyone he doesn't like? That he's jealous of other gods? That he demands you be obedient or suffer eternal torture?
"Then, He led a sinless life so that he could die as a pure sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins"
How is human sacrifice beneficial? Why do you see human sacrifice as something that deserves praise? My goodness you're a horrid creature. I hope everyone keeps their children far way from you, crank.
"sins being the moral errors in living that we choose to make in our weakness. The fact that he rose from the dead afterward to return to Heaven was the final proof He gave us that Jesus is God."
No one rises from the dead. What you view as proof is just your fervent belief.
dear sam: if they did not want their views subject to comment, they should not put them on a public forum.
"You know statistically, atheists are more likely to shove a view down someones throat more often then anyone of any faith."
Really? Provide a link to these "statistics"
Christians are commanded by god (or so they feel) to preach to the non-believers
Atheists say they don't have a god, but don't realize for most of them, science is their god. But what they fail to realize is that their god, science, agrees that there is a God that created all things.
New Scientist magazine said: “The lay view persists—of scientists having ‘disproved’ religion. It is a view that commonly expects scientists to be nonbelievers; that Darwin put the last nails in God’s coffin; and that a succession of scientific and technological innovations since have ruled out the possibility of any resurrection. It is a view that is wildly wrong.”—May 26, 1977, p. 478.
A member of the French Academy of Sciences stated: “Natural order was not invented by the human mind or set up by certain perceptive powers. . . . The existence of order presupposes the existence of organizing intelligence. Such intelligence can be none other than God’s.”—Dieu existe? Oui (Paris, 1979), Christian Chabanis, quoting Pierre-Paul Grassé, p. 94.
Scientists have identified over 100 chemical elements. Their atomic structure displays an intricate mathematical interrelationship of the elements. The periodic table points to obvious design. Such amazing design could not possibly be accidental, a product of chance.
Illustration: When we see a camera, a radio, or a computer, we readily acknowledge that it must have been produced by an intelligent designer. Would it be reasonable, then, to say that far more complex things—the eye, the ear, and the human brain—did not originate with an intelligent Designer?
truth? will set you free.
Science is not a god.
Atheists have NO religion.
Science is the search for truth using theory, experiment and observation
God was created by men to fill in the gaps in mans knowledge the lazy way.
Scientists fill in the gaps in mans knowledge through hard work.
TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE,
1. The "designer" of the eye, ear, brain barely gets a passing grade. Defects and diseases in them are quite widespread. The "top of the line" humans have less precise eyesight and hearing than many "lower" species. The same incompetence is true for planet Earth and the whole universe. Stuff is crashing into other stuff out in space all the time. Earth is rife with flaws which are devastating to living things.
2. So complex things REQUIRE a designer? Your "God" would be quite complex. Who designed it/him/her?
All are due to man's doing. Wanting to do things there own way, not God's way. Polluting the earth, poisoning the atmosphere, our waters and so on. So don't blame God for man's failed attempts, man should blame themselves for using their free will for their own advantage cause pain and suffering for others.
12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
1 And I myself returned that I might see all the acts of oppression that are being done under the sun, and, look! the tears of those being oppressed, but they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power, so that they had no comforter.
9 All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury.
As for the planets, they are doing exactly what they were designed to do. You lack knowledge I see, when it comes to the celestial bodies. If you wish I can enlighten you with science and scripture.
@TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE
If you posit that a God or creator-being designed the entirety of everything in the universe, then who do you posit designed God? Any being capable of designing something as complex as a sensory organ like an eye is surely even more complex itself; does this not require further explanation? Here we start down the slippery slope known as the infinite regress. Humans are complex, therefore they had to be "designed." God designed humans. Thus, God must be vastly more complex than humans, and so had to have been designed himself. But such a designer would be even MORE complex, and would thus require another designer, and so on into perpetuity. This is where your "intelligent design" argument falls apart.
Darwinian evolution, on the other hand, proceeded stepwise, in very small increments, each successive step conferring slightly more survival advantage and thus increasing the chances of survival and reproduction for the organism, ensuring that the advantage is passed on and further increased by future increments. This is completely logical and rational, amazing though it is, and there is actually pretty good evidence to back it up.
If you can provide any, ANY, evidence that complex beings were designed by a creator, then I will take you a little more seriously. Until then, representing as you do an organization that believes in such logically inconsistent "theories," I will continue to disregard most of what you say.
"scripture" doesn't enlighten, it obscures and misdirects, but not enlighten.
The technology that you're using to post on this blog, where did it come from?
If the Bible does not enlighten, why do scientists use it to confirm their findings, governments copy the laws of the Bible to govern, why does Hollywood use stories from the Bible for inspiration for movie scripts, and why is it the most powerful book ever penned by men?
The Bible is a book which includes *some* history of primitive Hebrew culture, and *some* good advice for practical, beneficial human behavior, but mostly it is a compilation of ancient Middle Eastern historical fiction, myth, legend, superst.ition and fantasy.
The NT is a collection of the writings of various 1st century evangelists who were promoting their new offshoot religion.
There is not a whit of verified evidence for any of the supernatural beings and events in that book.
When and who do you believe was the first to discover that the universe is expanding? That the earth is hanging on nothing? That the earth is a sphere, not flat?
"When and who do you believe was the first to discover that the universe is expanding?"
- "Stretching out the heavens" does not mean an expanding universe. The ancient Hebrews just saw the sky above them as a way-up-there roof to their tents.
That the earth is hanging on nothing?
- The Earth "hangs" on the gravitational fields of the sun, moon, and other planets in its vicinity.
That the earth is a sphere, not flat?
- It says "circle". The ancient Hebrews had a words for globe, ball, sphere, etc. but did not use them to describe the Earth.
I think he's about to make the fallacy that the scientists who confirmed these things were religious therefore god exists.
How about that handy-dandy, scientifically proven method for breeding prized striped goats? Just have the parents stare at some striped reeds at breeding time! Slick!
How about those storehouses in the clouds where hail and snow are kept?
How about that scientifically proven method of discerning if a wife was unfaithful to her husband by having her drink some magic water and waiting around to see if her belly swelled and her thighs rotted?
How about the mis-description of Orion's belt? It only *looks* like a belt as viewed from Earth. You'd sure think that a real god would know this.
1) Real scientists do not confirm anything via the bible.
2) Government draw from many sources for their laws, and you will not find any laws that are in the bible exclusively. Mans morlas come from many sources.
3) Holywood draws from many sources for their stories, just like those who wrote the bible drew on earlier versions of the same stories that are in the bible. Before hollywood, story telling was the most common form of entertainment.
4) The bible is not the most powerful book. Try using the dictionary....much more powerful, and is full of reality.
Dirty; Knot; Richard,
How would you explain how humans, animals, all living things, and the universe came into existence? Please facts, not theories.
@ReligionKeepsYouConfined: Gawd dun it wiff spellz?
Check out Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies, page 77, the Hebrew word used for "circle" also means "sphere."
"Stretching out the heavens," has nothing to do with the Jews looking at the sky from their roof top. I don't know where you see that in the context of these scriptures below.
8 Stretching out the heavens by himself
7 He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing;
And treading upon the high waves of the sea;
2 Enwrapping yourself with light as with a garment,
Stretching out the heavens like a tent cloth,
22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,
5 This is what the [true] God, Jehovah, has said, the Creator of the heavens and the Grand One stretching them out; the One laying out the earth and its produce, the One giving breath to the people on it, and spirit to those walking in it:
24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?
“The word of Jehovah concerning Israel,” is the utterance of Jehovah, the One who is stretching out [the] heavens and laying the foundation of [the] earth and forming the spirit of man inside him.
Also, how did the moon, sun & other planets get at their perfectly placed addresses in order for life to exist on earth only?
Here is a drawing showing what the ancient Hebrews thought the universe looked like:
They envisioned a dome-like ceiling stretched taut as a 'ceiling' to the Earth... much as you would see the tightly-stretched ceiling of tent. There is NO comparison to an expanding universe.
– and –
"There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers,"
At what alt'itude do humans appear to be the size of grasshoppers? At around 1,000 – 2,000 ft, probably - just as it would have looked to these ancient Middle Eastern men when they climbed the nearby mountains/hills and looked down at the people below.
Again: There is not a whit of verified evidence for the supernatural beings or events which are told about in The Bible stories.
"circle of the earth" explanation
Note the web site is Christian Resource Institute, so not just "some atheist link". I haven't researched this but the site seemed to have a good grasp on it.
Knot; Richard; End Religion, and all atheists who cares to give an answer:
Before we get deeper into the discussion of our complex Universe, lets start off with life on earth.
sam stone, hal 9001, et al: Your trolling isn't winning you anything. Speaking of winning, God wins in the end, no matter who you are or how much you hate Him - even Satan can't win against God, which is what atheism is really all about: denying God because you hate Him so much that you wish He didn't exist. Well, you can wish all you want, but it won't make your wishes come true. Finally, the reason why Bob and the other Christians on this board aren't saying as much as you atheists, or saying it as often, is because after one explains the truth to an immature child but is responded to with a temper tantrum, there is nothing left to say: there is only one truth, but the child is capable of throwing tantrums all day long. And only a fool argues with a fool.
Huh... weird... the same thing could be said of your wishes. Strange, isn't it?
There is only one truth, and that is your god was created by men, the same men who wrote the bible.
There is not one word in the bible that was put there by any of the thousands of gods men have created.
Damocles, I'm only going to respond because I agree with you. That is why I do not *wish* for anything, I *pray* for them. And guess what, God answers my prayers, in Jesus' name! When I was less mature, sometimes my prayers were inappropriate (that is, sinful), so God's answer was "No". Sometimes, His answer is "Wait", then later, "Yes". Lately, He has been giving me a lot of "Yes" answers; maybe that has to do with what I pray about and its appropriateness. (I tend to pray for other people more now.) But even if He chooses to put me through tribulations like Job, God will still be God: the forever faithful One. And He will always love those who love His Son and never forsake them, Amen.
That's what you manual says, but it was written by men, for men.
There is no evidence, even slight that any gods actually exist.
Ahhh... so your wishes are spelled p-r-a-y-e-r. Same thing. How many times have you praywished for something and had it come true with no effort on your part? Question two: is it a bit smug to say that your deity is answering your prayerwishes and other people's wishprayers are going unanswered?
And you feel yours is winning? You are delusional
How can someone hate something in which they do not believe? Are you that fvcking illogical?
No, the reason blob and his ilk do not respond is that they have had their a-s-ses handed to them and they realize their drivel is not making any inroads
Come on, TheKnowerseeker, explain to us how someone can hate something in which they do not believe. Can you do that,or are you yet another big mouth Christian coward?
Michaelcody73, Sam stone this is a partial reprint from the other day Sam.
I really like alot that you have to say and in some points you make sense. But let me bring up these points atheists being here are just a intimidation tactic to Christians no more no less. Its not gainful discussion and logic and reason that they are after it is lets see how many Christians can we intimidate and belittle enough to either quit the faith, make expressing being a Christian so painful that like Christmas we stop doing it or just harass till we stop posting. So the purpose needs to be thought of when asking your questions. Its kinda like the game hit the mole only the atheist/Christian version of it. I would love if your ideals actually worked but they don't here, reason is gone along with respect,caring, knowing countries roots. Change is not brought about by reason or discussion to atheists and there is plenty of hate for anything called Christian. About the only thing that this actually does that is good is makes sure you know your God and the Bible.
Bob: Logic? Okay, logically explain to me how people can hate (or fear, or love) a being in which they do not believe.
Also, Bob, explain to us how the whole "believe in (my version of) god or spend eternity in hell" schtick that christians spew forth is not (attempted) intimidation
Bob says atheists are not reasonable or logical, but when I ask him a logical question, he does not respond. How surprising
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