By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Editor
Washington (CNN) - By Friday, Hobby Lobby would have racked up $14.3 million in fines from the Internal Revenue Service for bucking Obamacare. But in keeping with the great American tax tradition, they may have found a loophole.
The company is facing $1.3 million a day in fines for each day it chooses not to comply with a piece of the Affordable Care Act that was set to trigger for them on January 1. The craft store chain announced in December that, because of religious objections, they would face the fines for not providing certain types of birth control through their company health insurance.
The penalty was set to go into effect on the day the company's new health care plan went into effect for the year.
Peter M. Dobelbower, general counsel for Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. said in a statement released through the Becket Fund that, "Hobby Lobby discovered a way to shift the plan year for its employee health insurance, thus postponing the effective date of the mandate for several months."
The statement continued that "Hobby Lobby does not provide coverage for abortion-inducing drugs in its health care plan. Hobby Lobby will continue to vigorously defend its religious liberty and oppose the mandate and any penalties."
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Last month Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor rejected the company's appeal for a temporary relief from the steep fines while their case made its way through the lower courts.
Hobby Lobby announced a day after the ruling that it "will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees. To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs."
In September, Hobby Lobby and affiliate Mardel, a Christian bookstore chain, sued the federal government for violating their owners' religious freedom and ability to freely exercise their religion.
The lawsuit says the companies' religious beliefs prohibit them from providing insurance coverage for abortion-inducing drugs. As of August 2012, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, dubbed Obamacare, requires employer-provided health care plans to provide "all Food and Drug Administration approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and patient education and counseling for all women with reproductive capacity," according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
Churches and houses of worship are exempt from the regulation and a narrow exemption was added for nonprofit religious employers whose employees "primarily share its religious tenets" and who "primarily serve persons who share its religious tenets."
The Internal Revenue Service regulations now say that a group health care plan that "fails to comply" with the Affordable Care Act is subject to an "excise tax" of "$100 per day per individual for each day the plan does not comply with the requirement." It remains unclear how the IRS would implement and collect the excise tax.
A spokesperson for the Justice Department declined to comment on the high court's move last month.
White House officials have long said they believe they have struck an appropriate compromise between religious exemptions and women's health. The White House has not commented specifically on the Hobby Lobby case.
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The Oklahoma City-based Hobby Lobby chain has more than 500 stores that employ 13,000 employees across 42 states, and takes in $2.6 billion in sales. It is still privately held by CEO and founder David Green and members of his family.
"The foundation of our business has been, and will continue to be strong values, and honoring the Lord in a manner consistent with biblical principles," a statement on the Hobby Lobby website reads, adding that one outgrowth of that is the store is closed on Sundays to give its employees a day of rest.
MORE BACKGROUND: Hobby Lobby faces millions in fines for bucking Obamacare
The Hobby Lobby case is just one of many before the courts over the religious exemption aspects of the law. The case represents by far the biggest for-profit group challenging the health care mandate.
Part of the reason Sotomayor rejected their appeal to the Supreme Court she wrote was because their case is still pending in the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver.
A spokesperson for the Becket Fund said on Friday a date has yet to be set for the case to be heard in the 10th Circuit.
***Attn: Bill Deacon***
dear father god.as prepare this morning to face death of the unborn at the abortion chamber where i pray and try to councel with my friends may it please you. i am sorry for the evil this blog wishes you.if i can please you in this way it makes me happy.
Dear God.... Please protect me from your followers. Ahmen.
Topher, dude – quit before you sound any more ridiculous. really man.
that should be a reply, but really, Topher is saying God lost his patience and got flustered and went on a baby-killing spree cause he was mad at the whole earth. boo hoo.
Yeah, God loses his patience and goes on kill-crazy rampages to give the kindergarteners what they deserved, but since the victims are below the not-in-the-Bible "age of accountability", they get to go to heaven, just like it doesn't say in the Bible.
And Topher thinks it's everyone else who is crazy.
And the truly magical thing is that the believer can't accept that their God is clearly made in their image, despite the claim of Gen. 1:26.
@ Topher "God's standards are so far above ours ..."
Anyone who has read God's rules and behavior in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, knows his standards are way below ours, down by Charles Manson and Ted Bundy. I can easily come up with fairer, more humane system than God's. Easily.
How? Can you tell me? You ever heard of Baal worship? Didn't think so.
Killing the first born child of the entire population of Egypt is kind of cruel in terms of abortion...
God didn't kill all the firstborn without warning them what they could do to stop it. But it was only those that believed in him and did what he said that were spared.
Read your bible.
1) Your god hardened Pharaohs heart to force him not to let the israelites go, like Pharaoh wanted.
2) He only told Moses how to prevent it, with specific instructions to only tell the Israelites what to do.
Your god is an ass.
Topher and Chad!!!!
Yes, the trick to recruiting atheists is to just get a Christian talking about their beliefs.
Way beyond the Hobby Lobby issue:
Only for the new members of this blog:
The reality of se-x, abortion, contraception and STD/HIV control: – from an agnostic guy who enjoys intelligent se-x-
Note: Some words hyphenated to defeat an obvious word filter. ...
The Brutal Effects of Stupidity:
: The failures of the widely used birth "control" methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% actual failure rate) and male con-dom (17.4% actual failure rate) have led to the large rate of abortions and S-TDs in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or co-ndoms properly and/or use safer methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and S-TDs.- Failure rate statistics provided by the Gut-tmacher Inst-itute. Unfortunately they do not give the statistics for doubling up i.e. using a combination of the Pill and a condom.
Added information before making your next move:
from the CDC-2006
"Se-xually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain S-TDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psy-ch-ological consequences of S-TDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs as-sociated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars."
Consumer Reports, January, 2012
"Yes, or-al se-x is se-x, and it can boost cancer risk-
Here's a crucial message for teens (and all se-xually active "post-teeners": Or-al se-x carries many of the same risks as va-ginal se-x, including human papilloma virus, or HPV. And HPV may now be overtaking tobacco as the leading cause of or-al cancers in America in people under age 50.
"Adolescents don’t think or-al se-x is something to worry about," said Bonnie Halpern-Felsher professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco. "They view it as a way to have intimacy without having 's-ex.'" (It should be called the Bill Clinton Syndrome !!)
Obviously, political leaders in both parties, Planned Parenthood, parents, the "stupid part of the USA" and the educational system have failed miserably on many fronts.
The most effective forms of contraception, ranked by "Perfect use":
– (Abstinence, 0% failure rate)
– (Masturbation, mono or mutual, 0% failure rate)
One-month injectable and Implant (both at 0.05 percent)
Vasectomy and IUD (Mirena) (both at 0.1 percent)
The Pill, Three-month injectable, and the Patch (all at 0.3 percent)
Tubal sterilization (at 0.5 percent)
IUD (Copper-T) (0.6 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Post-ovulation) (1.0 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Symptothermal) and Male condom (both at 2.0 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Ovulation method) (3.0 percent)
Every other method ranks below these, including Withdrawal (4.0), Female condom (5.0), Diaphragm (6.0), Periodic abstinence (calendar) (9.0), the Sponge (9.0-20.0, depending on whether the woman using it has had a child in the past), Cervical cap (9.0-26.0, with the same caveat as the Sponge), and Spermicides (18.0).
Maybe you should do some digging in the dirt and see what was acceptable say, a couple hundred thousand years ago.
Let the digging continue:
"Our spe-cies is an African one: Africa is where we first ev-olved, and where we have spent the majority of our time on Earth. The earliest fos-sils of recognizably modern Ho-mo sapiens appear in the fossil record at Omo Kibish in Ethiopia, around 200,000 years ago. Although earlier fossils may be found over the coming years, this is our best understanding of when and approximately where we originated.
According to the genetic and paleontological record, we only started to leave Africa between 60,000 and 70,000 years ago. What set this in motion is uncertain, but we think it has something to do with major climatic shifts that were happening around that time—a sudden cooling in the Earth’s climate driven by the onset of one of the worst parts of the last Ice Age. This cold snap would have made life difficult for our African ancestors, and the genetic evidence points to a sharp reduction in population size around this time. In fact, the human population likely dropped to fewer than 10,000. We were holding on by a thread.
Once the climate started to improve, after 70,000 years ago, we came back from this near-extinction event. The population expanded, and some intrepid explorers ventured beyond Africa. The earliest people to colonize the Eurasian landma-ss likely did so across the Bab-al-Mandab Strait separating present-day Yemen from Djibouti. These early beachcombers expanded rapidly along the coast to India, and reached Southeast Asia and Australia by 50,000 years ago. The first great foray of our species beyond Africa had led us all the way across the globe."
And if you want to dig into your own past:
For your $199 check to National Geographic's Genographic project and a DNA swab:
"Included in the markers we will test for is a subset that scientists have recently determined to be from our hominin cousins, Neanderthals and the newly discovered Denisovans, who split from our lineage around 500,000 years ago. As modern humans were first migrating out of Africa more than 60,000 years ago, Neanderthals and Denisovans were still alive and well in Eurasia. It seems that our ancestors met, leaving a small genetic trace of these ancient relatives in our DNA. With Geno 2.0, you will learn if you have any Neanderthal or Denisovan DNA in your genome."
See also Nova's recent one-hour docu-mentary about the Neaderthals. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/decoding-neanderthals.html
"The nation's largest abortion provider, Planned Parenthood, reports it received $542 million from government sources in 2011-2012 while performing 995,687 abortions from 2009-2011. In 2011 alone, its clinics performed 333,964 abortions.
"When broken down on an approximate annual basis, that means Planned Parenthood receives around $1,622 in government funds per abortion. From a time perspective, it translates to one abortion every 94 seconds."
If you understood the dynamics of population growth, resource availability, and crime rates, you realize that we need MORE abortions instead of less.
And all of them are legal medical procedures and none of your business. Still.
Great. How many people have died due to overpopulation, rampant disease, and apathy.
Got those statistics handy or just the ones that you think further your cause?
And still government funded and sanctioned murder of babies.
No "babies" are being "murdered", you idiot.
Grow a uterus and we'll talk, dipsh!t.
And how are we doing on the contraception front by the way? You know, getting the pointy hat guy and his contemporaries in the associated club of sky fairydom to officially come out and officially encourage people to use protection so that some of these numbers can be reduced?
Just to be clear, I'd rather people used contraceptives, but if morons who can't take care of babies get pregnant, and they're smart enough to realize what a mistake it would be-–they should have the abortion.
Oh I agree, Moby.
What does having a uterus have to do with it?
My word, you're stupid. If you're not the one carrying a fetus, you don't get a say. You will never face an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy, Gopher. You don't get to tell anyone who is facing one what she should or shouldn't do. And no, just because you pay taxes, it doesn't mean you get to dictate how every dime of your money is spent anymore than I or anyone else does.
Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son
"If you're not the one carrying a fetus, you don't get a say."
Is that why you're putting in your two cents? I doubt it.
"You will never face an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy"
True. I'm married.
"You don't get to tell anyone who is facing one what she should or shouldn't do".
So I can't make a judgment based on morality?
Morality?? Aaaahahahahaha *wipes away a tear of laughter*
Idiot, are you so stupid you don't realize that married women have abortions, too? What a moron. Did you just fall off the turnip truck? You can judge if you want, but you have no say in the matter, Topher.
As for my "two cents", you dip, I believe the choice is up to the person who bears the risks of pregnancy and childbirth, and to no one else. You want to have a say, then you figure out how to carry a fetus yourself.
Topher will now proceed to wail on about the precious "babies" and how no one has the right to yada yada yada yada. Meanwhile, he and his wife haven't adopted any unwanted kids from foster care, nor have they offered their home to a pregnant woman who can't afford to continue a pregnancy and take care of the children she already has.
EVERYONE is "pro-abortion" if things get bad enough.
EVERYONE is "pro-life". It just depends if that life is the mother or fetus.
You're apparently just ANTI-CHOICE.
I'm anti-murder. No matter what.
No, Topher, you are FOR murder when it is your god's will to murder. Your morals are subjective-–subject to change depending on who's doing the "wrong." If it's your god, then you're ok with it.
So is everyone else, you idiot. Abortion isn't murder. Never was. Not even when it was illegal.
Probably right. When God smushes you, you deserve it. When someone murders a baby, that's taking an innocent life.
We're all anti-murder. Murder is a crime. Abortion isn't. (check the law).
If the life of your wife/sister/daughter depended on an abortion to save their life, you'd support abortion, so get real.
A clump of cells is not a baby, and nothing you can say will make it one, Topher. The fact is that you can be opposed to abortion all you like, but it will change nothing. There will, for the foreseeable future, be women and girls who face a pregnancy they didn't plan and don't want and they will end if they choose to do so. They aren't required to get your approval, and they aren't incubators who can provide someone else with a baby just because you think they should.
Keep right on telling women what to do, though. It's in character for you. it's your entire schtick.
Did you really just say that?
So the only question for you is when a baby ceases to be innocent?
If someone could convince you that your deity was allowing all these abortions because all those fetuses would grow up to be bad people, would you be ok with them?
So you see, Topher, you're FOR murder when it matches your ideal. (God is your ideal, and when he murders, you are for that murder). We pro-choice people are for actions that match our ideals. You're against our reasoning when it's the exact same as your own reasoning.
"We're all anti-murder. Murder is a crime. Abortion isn't. (check the law)."
I know what the law says, but how is taking the life of an innocent child not murder?
"If the life of your wife/sister/daughter depended on an abortion to save their life, you'd support abortion, so get real."
In that situation I'd want everything done to save her life without murdering the child. If in that procedure the baby dies, then I'd mourn. But I won't set out to kill the baby.
"In that situation I'd want everything done to save her life without murdering the child. If in that procedure the baby dies, then I'd mourn. But I won't set out to kill the baby"
You're just kidding yourself. The whole point of the operation was to kill the baby to save the mother.
Get honest with yourself. You wouldn't call it murder then..
Not quite true. God can't murder. He could take your life, but as your Creator, He has the right to give you life and take it away.
All I'm saying is that child has done nothing to deserve to have its brains sucked out or any other horrible thing they do to kill it. Why aren't you concerned for the child's right to live?
You don't even know what you're talking about, Gopher. The vast majority of abortions take place within the first weeks of pregnancy. There is no "brain" and there are no pain receptors. You are an ignoramus.
The Bible NEVER mentioned abortion. Read it.
"If someone could convince you that your deity was allowing all these abortions because all those fetuses would grow up to be bad people, would you be ok with them?"
All those babies WILL grow up to be bad people. The Bible says there are none who are good, "no, not one."
Topher, you stupid git, if you allow god to do what you would allow no one else to do then your morality is subjective and not standard--–an action could be bad or good depending on who does it: topher's god or some person. You don't have moral standards, you have an ideal that you appeal to and then you have the arrogance to tell us not to hold to our ideals? You hypocrite.
"The Bible NEVER mentioned abortion. Read it."
I read it every day. And it's true the word "abortion" never appears, it doesn't have to. There are MANY verses where God says how much he loves the unborn and children and that murder is wrong.
Very recently, a woman died due to sepsis in Ireland when the gynecologists refused termination of pregnancy saying it is a Catholic nation! There has been a fury over this incident and most of Ireland's public voted in favor of easier access to abortions.
Ok, so what does it matter if they die before they are born and you can't prove that your deity isn't ok with that as opposed to dying after birth?
God's standards are so far above ours ...
If you read it everyday you know that the Bible is full of commands from God to kill women.
NEVER ONCE does God give a rip if the women he wants killed are pregnant or not.
Who cares, topher? I'm talking about your morality that has no standard because your god can violate it at will and with your approval.
That's very sad, Simran. What happened to the baby?
Can you name a woman God kills in the Bible?
I wont be here for long today. But just wanted to raise another point. The Bible doesnot mention the word abortion. And yet, abortion was being practiced by Greeks and Romans before Bible was written. If it had been such an issue, why did they not specifically mention abortion!
Thought you read the Bible. It's full of commands to kill women: non-virgins getting married, fortune tellers, adulterers, etc.
Are you going to claim that no one actually followed through on that nonsense?
God killed the entire population except Noahand five others, so have of that slaughter is God mass-murdering women. Sodom and Gomorrah too.
Hey, have a good one, dude!
Does it really need to? As I said earlier, there are MANY verses saying that not only are the unborn actually people, but that God loves them and says it is wrong to murder. We can't put these things together?
This is not an isolated incident Topher. There have been several before. The fetus was anyways going to die, because it was not a viable fetus. Still, a medically indicated MTP was not offered and a husband lost his wife too!
A similar incident occured in Dominican Republic also.
When religion (one particular religion) is used to formulate a country's law (I say so bcoz this woman wasnot Christian), Ireland becomes no better than Pakistan!
Considering that Bible was a moral book written for people to understand what is right from wrong, if the practice of abortion was being practiced at the time of its writing, it is surprising why they forgot to mention it – there were herbal abortifacients being used and other methods too...
While the Bible has been explicit about so many other issues, why not this one?
Since no one could think of one, I'll help you out. How about Saphira?
"Considering that Bible was a moral book written for people to understand what is right from wrong"
That's not the point of the Bible. Yes, how to live is in there, but the point of the Bible is to show God's redemptive work ... it's so you can know how to be saved.
"While the Bible has been explicit about so many other issues, why not this one?"
I'd only be guessing, dude. I can give you verse after verse that shows how much God cares about the unborn.
Mmmm yes... follow me or I may just not protect you when I get in a tizzy and decide to murder the world, but I created you so it's not really muder it's a.... hmmm... deity approved ceasation of life function. Ohh that's got a nice ring to it.
"I'd only be guessing, dude. I can give you verse after verse that shows how much God cares about the unborn."
If you want to oppose abortion, that's fine, but don't use the Bible as an EXCUSE.
The Bible says that at one time, God TORTUROUSLY KILLED EVERY pregnant woman, child, baby and fetus on the face of the earth.
And what does the Bible say about WHY He did that?
Was it because ALL (or ANY) of the children, babies and fetuses on the face of the earth had sinned?
So as long as genocide can be justified, it's ok?
Trust me, I'm your deity, those people deserved to die. There's a whole lot of dictators that would love to have you believe that.
Genesis 6:5 "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Gen. 6:11 "Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth."
Man had totally turned away from God. How long should sin go unpunished?
Sorry you missed the question.
What sin did all the children, babies and fetuses on the face of the earth commit that they deserved to be MURDERED?
Once again, you make the mistake of giving God man's attributes. You can't do that. We have some of His, but we're also corrupt. He's perfect, holy, righteous and just.
"What sin did all the children, babies and fetuses on the face of the earth commit that they deserved to be MURDERED?"
Once again, it's not murder. But to answer your question, the whole people group deserved to be wiped out, just like the ones in Exodus. "Unless you repent, you shall likewise perish." Luke 13.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one saying that your deity resorts to the rather human trait of lashing out against those that supposedly wrong it?
Still stumped? Why won't you answer the question? Why did alll the children, babies, and fetuses deserve a slow horrible death? What did THEY do?
Are you saying that they would have had no chance to choose to be good? So much for the apparent lie that God lets everyone choose good or evil.
See if you can answer this time. What did the children, babies and FETUSES do to deserve to be murdered by God?
God ran out of patience and gave the people what they deserve. As far as the babies and the unborn, don't forget that because of the age of accountability, they got to go to Heaven.
Yes, see you have free will unless your deity chooses to.... ummmm... it's not murder murder you before you have a chance to use that free will.
"As far as the babies and the unborn, don't forget that because of the age of accountability, they got to go to Heaven"
So do all chldren, babies, and fetuses that die get to automatically go to heaven?
Oh geez, that's just way too funny. Your eternal deity did a very human thing and ran out of patience. I mean, it's eternal, has all the time in the universe and it runs. out. of. patience. Priceless.
"God ran out of patience???" Are you fu c king kidding me?? Where do you people get this trash?
"So do all chldren, babies, and fetuses that die get to automatically go to heaven?"
Yes. Until they reach that age of accountability.
I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to explain to yourself how a perfect deity can run out of patience.
You have just made the greatest argument EVER in support of ABORTION. Free pass to heaven. NO hassles, No trials and tribulations. No temptations. Just a FAST PASS to heaven. It's the best thing we could ever do for a fetus. So if you really care about your child and want to guarantee them eternity in heaven, abortion is the way to go.,
What do you call it when He lets you go on sinning against Him, rebeling at every turn for hundreds of years, and finally gives you what you deserve? If you've got a better term, I'll consider it.
Really? Are you honestly making that argument? Why don't you think they have to right to life? What did they do to make you want to kill them?
Alright, some of the comments here are getting beyond ridiculous. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just figure you are tired. It's getting late and I'm going to take a break. Talk to you in a bit ...
1) Do you have kids?
2) Do you ever run out of patience with them?
3) If you do run out of patience with them, do you 'it's not murder' murder them?
"Really? Are you honestly making that argument? Why don't you think they have to right to life? What did they do to make you want to kill them?"
What is better? Life on earth or an eternity in Heaven?.
Answer your own questions. I just said the same thing about every child, baby and fetus on the face of the earth and you said it was fine that God killed them.
You are digging yourself deeper and deeper. Logic and consistency are out the window.
Most Christians don't understand that we owe their invented God nothing and when they are confronted by it they can't stand it which is why people Topher whine about other peoples bodies and feels he should get to police what people do in bed. He can only see it from the position of running around telling everyone what they owe his God. Well Topher, I think your doorbell might be ringing with my payment in a paper sack, don't worry if it's on fire, just stomp it out with your slippers...
As a former Evangelical your comments are accurate, but the Christians are far more complex for their reasons for obsessing over other's "sins."
Over the years I've watched their lives and in my own experience know that just beneath the tenuous exterior is a constant psychological (they'd say "spiritual") tumult...Step into any worship service on any given Sunday morning, particularly among the Charismatics and Pentecostals, and read the words to their worship songs they display so everyone can sing along...it is a constant begging for God's forgiveness for their sins (which, oddly enough, their savior died for; one would think the transformative power of their savior would have gotten them past most of them...).
So, in one aspect of their obsession, they have to focus on other's sins in order to distract themselves from their own fears and worries. Kinda like some examples of televangelists or church leaders who are the loudest voices against, say, hom-o se-xuality, but are, in fact, closeted themselves.
Another thing that intrigues me is that it is easy to rail against abortion, contraception, and hom-o se-xuality...it requires very little effort to sit in a pew or behind a laptop and rail against sin...it takes far more effort to actually heed the co mmands of their savior in places like Matthew 6; 25; 28 and Luke 6.
American Christians, in general, are lazy and they need to feel as if they are doing something to account for the blood shed by their savior. I mean, if they really believed in their own message, you'd hit them with your fender on every street corner because they'd be out "preaching the gospel for the end is nigh"....
No fender damage....they're just out shopping at Target or logging into another po rn site...God bless 'em.
topher: you have no authority to speak for god
NONE of the government funding went towards abortion> NOT one cent. Abortions are funded by PRIVATE donations. Although the gov't DID give PP funding, and although PP DID perform those abortions, not one CENT of that money went towards funding abortions. Please stop lying, TOPHER> Remember the 9th commandment, and quit bearing false witness because YOU don't like PP. I will never read another word you say with thinking you're a dishonest LIAR.
Moby. To reduce the malthusian threat to resources please kill yourself.
Please don't post propaganda from the anti-abortion crowd: it's never accurate and may fool some gullible people into believing it's factual. For the record, less than 3% of PP's activities are related to abortion (their federally-required annual report is available online for verification). The other 97% is spent helping women avoid unwanted pregnancies and abortions. Most of their money comes from donations, not the federal government. If birth control was universally available– especially for teenage girls– abortions would become a thing of the past, save for medically-required reasons.
Let's see you backup that BS. what a dufus.
If a woman wants an abortion – it's her body! If she cannot get one legally, she will find a way to have one regardless....
Why doesn't everybody just mind their own damn business? Why are a bunch of old bald white men with framless glasses trying to tell a woman what she can do with her own body? Nobody actually wants an abortion, but if you are in that woman's shoes, maybe that is your only option. It's HER decision.
whats the data on number of unwanted children that churches have taken in and raised until 18 years of age?
I'm just curious – I see you have quite a debate raging here so maybe you've already answered this one. I assume if you're against government sanctioned murder, you're also against the death penalty?
no i dont understand why someone like you isnt put behind a american jail.understan d that new atheist
You don't understand stairs.
Tom Tom's comment made me imagine david on an escalator that breaks down while he is halfway up--–and nearly starves to death waiting on someone to fix it.
Anyone who doesn't accept your fairytails should be imprisoned?
I understand why we seperate our government from religion.
Oh my, that's priceless! LOL
I'm entranced by Moby's vision. I believe I shall dream sweet dreams about david dumdum starving to death on a paralyzed escalator.
Maybe the other believers will say that it was the deity's will that david died on that escalator. Can't fight The Will. Or The Stupidity.
the tela marketer not counselor at the chambers of abortion wants your babydead.doe vs bolton not roe made it possible to torture to death babies,roe just made it possible to murder up to 9 months
please tell me you live in a group home. You need supervision.
Please. Either become literate, or stop posting. One or the other.
I see David DeFrank is still poszting lies masquerading as fact. Fact is, he doesn't know of andclinics that do that. He doesn't know any clinics at all. Every one on the "facts" he has spouted he has made up. And not very well, either.
life is not defined by size.we no it be cause we see it by loretta king prolife advocate daughter of martin.
Conscious life, as we understand it, most certainly IS defined by a range of sizes. If you don't have a brain of a certain type (whether because of your size or some other reason) you're not conscious.
Faith is not a choice. We will not believe something that doesn't make sense.
I do not believe that a single being powerful enough to create the universe would speak to Moses when he was alone, provide him no proof the conversation took place, and send anyone who either didn't accept his message or never heard of him to eternal damnation.
I do not believe that an all-powerful being wouldn't do any better than giving us a bible that was full of contradictions and needed to be edited after a few hundred years.
O also can't believe that the christian god would set Adam up to fail in a garden called Eden, then hold his 'sin' against everyone ever born.
Before I accept any legal argument that their god forbids this, they should have to prove that their god exists. Not just argue that A god must exist, but prove that THEIR god exists.
Without this proof, they should not be allowed to force their beliefs onto their employees.
i take pain when someone kills a child.a wicked generation wants signs.do you new atheist.
I do not want a religion I do not believe in telling American citizens how to live.
can you understand that?
@New Athiest "Faith is not a choice. We will not believe something that doesn't make sense."
@Chad "neither will I"
@New Athiest "I do not believe that a single being powerful enough to create the universe would speak to Moses when he was alone"
How would you have done it?
remember, you cant coerce people into loving you. Love must be freely given.
@New Athiest "provide him no proof the conversation took place, and
clearly you havent ever read Exodus 3, you should start by doing that.
@New Athiest " send anyone who either didn't accept his message"
@Chad "if you dont want to spend eternity with God, He wont make you.
how would you do it differently?
@New Athiest " or never heard of him to eternal damnation."
@Chad "where did you get that idea from? Clearly not the bible.
@New Athiest "I do not believe that an all-powerful being wouldn't do any better than giving us a bible that was full of contradictions and needed to be edited after a few hundred years."
@Chad "contradictions? where?
@New Athiest "also can't believe that the christian god would set Adam up to fail in a garden called Eden"
how would you have done it differently?
@New Athiest "then hold his 'sin' against everyone ever born."
@Chad "we are born into this world because of what Adam did, but we each are separated from God by what we do"
@New Athiest "Before I accept any legal argument that their god forbids this, they should have to prove that their god exists"
@Chad "argument from ignorance.."
@New Athiest " Not just argue that A god must exist, but prove that THEIR god exists.
@Chad "argument from ignorance"
@New Athiest "Without this proof, they should not be allowed to force their beliefs onto their employees."
@Chad "who is forcing anyone, they can get another job, or get their own insurance. This isnt China, North Korea, or any of the other states that have an official policy of state atheism. In the USA, you are free.
you are an idiot. Or so insecure you can't comprehend a valid opinion that is different from yours.
Put what I posted back into complete sentences. Then try to argue against it.
Yes. Chad loves to switch people's words around. It's his favorite pastime.
How many Chads does it take to change a light bulb?
One. Chad holds the bulb and world revolves around him.
chad is a mess of phobias
Put a period after "mess" and you'd be just as accurate in your description.
Actually, I think people like Chad and his idols (like W. Lane Craig) are fairly rare. Smart enough to understand how an argument should works and a general idea of the structure should hold, but zero understanding of reasoning process and logical hierarchy.
actually, all of his words are in exact order I think.. but you werent really going for accuracy anyway were you :-)
no one is going to tell us how they would have done it differently?
If you could have prevented this horrible slaughter would you have done it or would you have just sat around and watched the massacre of children like God did?
Again, Chard, is your god so ineffectual that he might as well not exist? What good does he ever do?
if your wife whom you loved, leaves you, starts drinking, drives drunk and kills herself, how would you feel if someone accused you of sitting around and watching?
The wife in my example, is humanity
The husband is the God of Israel
Just like the wife, humanity went off on it's own, got drunk, and killed itself
and the husband, who dearly loved the wife, is forced (because of the choice the wife made) to watch.
those poor children were in the back of the car, screaming as mom drove off the cliff..
They, like all children, have to live with the tragic consequences of the parents actions.
Again, Chard, is your god so ineffectual that he cannot intervene when the lives of children are at stake due to no fault of their own? If your god is such a vindictive POS that he turns his back on those who have never shunned him, I don't want any part of him or his "love."
Is Chad drunk and trying to draw some parallel from a woman driving off of a cliff to abortion???
Chad, why won't you answer the question.
Okay, you think your analogy that is stupid for about twelve reasons is amazing brilliant. Fine. You're an idiot. Why won't you answer Observer's question? Why?
read the analogy again
are you going to chain your errant wife in the basement? that would have prevented it
are you going to physically restrain her? Drug her?
The husband didnt stop her, even though he could of, because he respected her freedom to make her own decisions
God doesnt stop these tragedies for the same reason.
Don't tell me what to do, Chad. I understood its astounding level of stupidity before I finished the sentence that contained it.
Why won't YOU answer the question outright? Why?
Again, it fails. Yes, I might, as a human of limited capacity seek to keep my wife from harming herself with drastic means. Can an all powerful deity not simply ease her off her self destructive habits with her being aware?
The owner of Hobby Lobby is a Christian and when you go in the store is filled with Christian stuff, Christian music played over the intercom and a bunch over joyous employees that just want to jump out and give everyone a hung. Give the Hobby Lobby guy a break. I spoke with him and he has spent a lot of time helping out those who need it. Seems like the real McCoy.
As to the rest of your stuff you are right on the mark, it doesn’t make sense until you can understand and explain to me how Quantum fluctuations result from bending a weak force.
A few facts may be helpful since you address God as revealed in the Bible:
-God speaking to Moses alone is consistent with what we witness today. The Holy Spirit directly and instantaneously transforms the mind and life of a believer. It is a one on one imparting of the Spirit into man which is way God often communicates. It is actually the main proof we have today by empirical observation that there is a cause and effect relationship when the Gospel is preached.
-I don’t fully understand eternal damnation but that Bible you keep referring to does not say you are eternally damned if you never had the opportunity to accept the Gospel.
-The Bible has said the same thing for 3,400 years. I have no idea what constant editing you refer to every 100 years. Don’t sweat the small stuff we can barely agree on the major points.
-Adam was not set up anymore than you or I were and some (like C.S. Lewis) even think Adam was figurative. We all fall because we have the knowledge of good and evil. In the absence of God we are powerless to separate the two. That is why Jesus is the way the truth and light. We were given a living example on what to do when have the absence of God in our life.
-If you want proof that God exists you need to pick up a red letter edition of the Bible and read the words of Christ written in red from the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Before you begin to read ask Christ for help because without that help we are all just on our own.
I'm not afraid of gays or nothin, but I dont think I want a bunch of mccoys running up to me and giving me a hung.
@Chad – Couldn't the husband just take his drunk wife's keys? Call the police to tell them she's driving drunk like an idiot?
She is no longer his wife, she left him.
Hi New Ath-iest, Read these books: THE CASE FOR CH-RIST (by Lee Stroebel, a former ath-eist who worked for the Chicago Tribune) and THE FALL OF LUCI-FER (by Wendy Alec, co-founder of G-d-TV). I promise you, all of your questions and doubts will be answered-unequivocally. Both available on Amazon. ;)
"The lawsuit says the companies' religious beliefs prohibit them from providing insurance coverage for abortion-inducing drugs."
Since when does a company have relgious beliefs? People have beliefs...maybe even the owners have beliefs, but a company is not a person.
But this goes even further into hypocrisy. Hobby Lobby is argueing that they don't wish to pay for abortion drugs. But all they are required to pay for is medical insurance. What someone does with that insurance is their private business. In this light Hobby Lobby could just as easily argue "Sorry, your paycheck has been withheld because we fear you may use the money to purchase birth control". There is no functional difference.
Especially when the medical insurance is part of the employee's pay package, and not the property of the employer. The company really isn't paying for it; the employee is. It's part of his pay.
Then again, the present Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are people with free speech, and that dollars are forms of free speech, and that corporations may throw as much money as they like at the political process, drowning out any real voice actual humans have, so the whole "corporation has religious beliefs" schtick might play. Let's face it: this Court may as well have been filled withused car salesmen for all the integrity it has shown.
the company has religious beliefs because the owner owns the company.the company is the owner and stock holders.the owner will not buy a pill that kills a baby.get it now atheist.by the way who made the universe???????????you
company's are not people thus they cannot be religious, this actually scares me i know their going to use citizens united to say Corps are peeps and untitled to Protection under the fist amendment.
this scares me because it means that Muslim, Jewish and Christian companies could legally use slavery saying their religion allows it
i just read an article about a fellow who wanted to challenge this in the supreme court so he started his journey by keeping papers of incorporation in his car, driving solo in an HOV lane. When he got pulled over he asserted since corporations are people he actually had enough people in the car to be in the HOV lane. He apparently intends to fight it all the way if necessary to bring that law down. I guess i could google it but i feel lazy.
Actually the 14th amendment grants corporations citizenship and personhood
bingo. can I refrain from having my company paying income taxes and payroll taxes because I opposed the govt's killing of children in afghanistan and iraq? Can i refrain from participating in programs enacted by democratically elected officials because I dont agree with them? negative. our company would be chaos if company owners could pay taxes that are commensurate with their measure of agreement with government policies.
"Twenty-one states offer exemptions from contraceptive coverage, usually for religious reasons, for insurers or employers in their policies: Arizona, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan (administrative rule), Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Rhode Island, Texas and West Virginia."
I will need to talk with God and see if He approves of tax loopholes in the name of righteousness.
I have a craving for a Chick-Fil-A sandwich.
No wonder people are so fat in the Bible Belt.
Eat mor chick-fil-a!
Yay – do the right thing, except as applies to costing us money and then eff 'em all. Christian all the way!
The "easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven" thing doesn't apply to us. Only the Biblical rules that we choose apply, and always to other people.
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19
Thank you for helping us ignore whatever Biblical rules we like, Chad.
Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. 1 Timothy 6
didnt want to interrupt your cherry picking, but did want to point out several things:
1. with man, nothing is possible. Trying to get to God on our own merit (taking a vow of poverty for example), doesnt do it. There is only one way in.
2. it is the love of money, not money itself, that is the root of evil (it doesnt endanger salvation, but it is the root of evil).
Google Hobby Lobby philanthropy
ok, you can go back to un-informed cherry picking now..
Those who cherry pick accusing others of cherry picking? You interpret "all things are possible" to mean you can violate everything your Bible says, including direct rejection of Jesus, and still be saved?
BWA! HA HA! HA! HA! HA!
You just rendered the Bible pointless. You just proved that no rule in the Bible applies.
You are just a joy to read, Chud.
by "“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” I mean just that.
how do you figure that translates into "violate everything your Bible says, including direct rejection of Jesus"
You don't understand, you must have a certain mindset when perusing the scriptures, so as to take things in context. You have to know the secret handshake so you can shake hands with God. Otherwise you're just a migrant farmer of the soul, picking cherries all over hell!!
Thx to Chad for helping create more atheists!
Hahaha! Have you ever seen Chad defend the Bible's account of creation? It's hilarious. "Yeah, but if you realize that all the words means something completely different than any definition you've ever heard of, then it makes perfect sense!!! yay! The bible is proved right again!!"
Actually, the "camel" referred to in this verse is incorrectly translated and misleading. What J-sus was referring to was thick thread made from camel's hair. Akin to putting twine through an average sewing needle.
In keeping with Biblical traditions, we have erected a stoning arena where the high crime of not being a virgin on your wedding night will be punished in a most holy and biblical way. The rebellious teenager stoning pit is already booker through 2068.
It would be a violation of our religious freedom to prevent us from obeying oour most holy religion.
I don't get it. Was that supposed to be funny?
It is our religious freedom and right to deny others their religious freedom of using contraceptives.
That's ridiculous. No one is saying you can't use contraceptives.
The Bible says a betrothed woman who does not cry out during rape must be put to death. It is a violation of our religious freedom to not let us kill her.
I'd be embarrassed to call myself an atheist these days.
You have much to be embarassed about, Tophu.
Delusion, weaselly debate, hypocrisy . . . how's that for starters?
I'm embarrassed that I was ever an atheist. That I denied what my conscience revealed to me. I'm embarrassed that I've lied, stolen, looked with lust and broke every other law God gave. I'm embarrassed that as a teenager I sought out every Christian I knew to call them names, make fun of them and try to break their faith in God. I'm embarrassed that I was such a jerk to co-workers and classmates. I could go on and on.
I heard a vicious rumor that Chik-fil-A is sneaking contraceptives into the breading of their delicious chikn. Keep that stoning pit open and primed for use.
tofu, christianity is just the latest scam you've fallen for. You show a propensity to believe whatever gibberish has the most appealing glitter in that moment.
But you are still doing the same thing now, Topher, in the name of religion. You may have changed ideologies, but you haven't changed behavior.
How am I doing the same things?
You still ridicule those who aren't just like you, Gopher. You dismiss them as inferior. Your behavior hasn't changed–only the excuse you use for it.
I don't know if you were an atheist when you were younger, I doubt it because of the way you try to describe how you were back in the day. Anyone can be a jerk, believer and non-believer alike. It's more than obvious from seeing ALL of the posts on here that they exist on both sides.
I see Tophers and Chads.
They don't even know they're Tophers and Chads.
I haven't ridiculed anyone. I just think they're wrong. And because I care about them, I tell them about the wrath that is to come and about the Gospel.
Topher, you fvcking moron, when you pull stupid sh1t like that "When I were an ape-theist....." crap, it's ridiculing. And just because you might be able to defend yourself here with argument that it wasn't, doesn't mean that you don't know the truth deep down. Don't lie to your Jesus, Topher.
You disingenuous little ass wipe. You continually demean the lives of others with your inane posts about what YOU believe as if it were fact. Grow up. Figure out that you aren't the authority and what you think is irrelevant to anyone who hasn't asked for your input.
Topher.... Topher.... see, you said that when you were young and your heart was an open book... wait... anyway, back in the day you supposedly when around as an atheist telling people they were wrong, now you are a believer doing what? Telling people they are wrong. Now you just feel justified.
I never said "Live and let live (you know you did you know you did you know you did ...) ;)
OK, I see what you are getting at. I suppose I do feel justified. But there is a difference. What I was doing before was because I thought I was better than everyone. Smarter than everyone. It was all about ME!
Now, I want to tell you atheists about the Gospel because of YOU. I don't want you to go to Hell. I care about you. There a lot of atheists here to think they know something about the Bible when they clearly don't. I'm just trying to help some of you at least be able to make a decision based on intelligence, not arrogant lies. If you still reject it, fine. That's your choice.
You still are clueless. You think YOU know what god thinks, what god says, what is absolute truth. YOU DON'T, you arrogant little twerp. If you would just once shut your trap and stop yammering about what you THINK you know, you might find out that you don't know anything.
I can take the same tact and say I'm doing this out of love for you, so you won't be prey to any jackwagon that comes along with a brand new deity. Your faith, your willingness to believe that a deity speaks to people, leaves you dangerously vulnerable to anyone who makes that claim. The conundrum of being faced with a killer who has you under the knife and claims that a deity is telling him or her to do this thing is one that you have no escape from.
I wish you did do it out of love. We'd be able to sit down and have a civil conversation even though we disagree. As you can tell from some of the children who post on here ... not everyone is willing to do that.
What a hoot. Topher impersonating a mature adult!
Start acting like one, Gopher. Stop being the little professor and telling everyone else what they should or should not do.
Thank you for proving my point, Tom Tom.
I'm just as guilty as others for running off on a sarcastic tangent when all else fails. I try to keep it civil, but some people just demand to be whacked upside the head with a tackhammer. Gently, of course.
The only point you have, Gopher, is the one on top of your empty head. You don't get it. Nobody is asking for your help. Nobody needs your advice. If it isn't requested, then shut up.
I'm sure I've asked you before, but what is your official position? What do you believe about the after-life?
The atheists are givin' the agggies a bad name.
The gknow it all gnostics are a hoot, too.
Ah, ah, ah *wags a finger* my posistion shouldn't matter. But, if it really matters to you, my official posistion is, at the moment, sitting down.
OK. You don't have to tell if you don't want to. Just wondering if you atheist or agnostic ...
Are you a good person?
Ahhh you tickle me when you try to go down this road.
I'm glad you're having a good time. :)
So are you?
What a mission statement;
The foundation of our business has been, and will continue to be strong values, and honoring the Lord in a manner consistent with biblical principles,"
Will be shopping at Hobby Lobby.
Biblical principals! Stone the wh0res!!
...wait, help me out...where in the Bible did it talk about contraceptives? I can't remember....
Hobby Lobby is probably importing a shipment of slaves as we speak.
If more businesses had THAT Mission Statement life would be better; people would love others as much as they love themselves; people would know and love God and society would flourish.
And I say, Amen too, Tofu. Bless your heart.
Which lord, though?
Decency costs Nothing, but hypocrisy surely costs plenty. You wouldn't know that, though, as you're the skunk that accuses everyone else of being stinky.
Love all these people blessing themselves.
I thought it was one person blessing himself repeatedly.
Love to shop at Hobby Lobby. Great goods at great prices!
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