home
RSS
January 11th, 2013
03:40 PM ET

Hobby Lobby finds way around $1.3-million-a-day Obamacare hit - for now

By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Editor

Washington (CNN) - By Friday, Hobby Lobby would have racked up $14.3 million in fines from the Internal Revenue Service for bucking Obamacare. But in keeping with the great American tax tradition, they may have found a loophole.

The company is facing $1.3 million a day in fines for each day it chooses not to comply with a piece of the Affordable Care Act that was set to trigger for them on January 1. The craft store chain announced in December that, because of religious objections, they would face the fines for not providing certain types of birth control through their company health insurance.

The penalty was set to go into effect on the day the company's new health care plan went into effect for the year.

Peter M. Dobelbower, general counsel for Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. said in a statement released through the Becket Fund that, "Hobby Lobby discovered a way to shift the plan year for its employee health insurance, thus postponing the effective date of the mandate for several months."

The statement continued that "Hobby Lobby does not provide coverage for abortion-inducing drugs in its health care plan. Hobby Lobby will continue to vigorously defend its religious liberty and oppose the mandate and any penalties."

Follow the CNN Belief Blog on Twitter

Last month Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor rejected the company's appeal for a temporary relief from the steep fines while their case made its way through the lower courts.

Hobby Lobby announced a day after the ruling that it "will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees. To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs."

In September, Hobby Lobby and affiliate Mardel, a Christian bookstore chain, sued the federal government for violating their owners' religious freedom and ability to freely exercise their religion.

The lawsuit says the companies' religious beliefs prohibit them from providing insurance coverage for abortion-inducing drugs. As of August 2012, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, dubbed Obamacare, requires employer-provided health care plans to provide "all Food and Drug Administration approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and patient education and counseling for all women with reproductive capacity," according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

Churches and houses of worship are exempt from the regulation and a narrow exemption was added for nonprofit religious employers whose employees "primarily share its religious tenets" and who "primarily serve persons who share its religious tenets."

The Internal Revenue Service regulations now say that a group health care plan that "fails to comply" with the Affordable Care Act is subject to an "excise tax" of "$100 per day per individual for each day the plan does not comply with the requirement." It remains unclear how the IRS would implement and collect the excise tax.

A spokesperson for the Justice Department declined to comment on the high court's move last month.

White House officials have long said they believe they have struck an appropriate compromise between religious exemptions and women's health. The White House has not commented specifically on the Hobby Lobby case.

CNN’s Belief Blog: The faith angles behind the biggest stories

The Oklahoma City-based Hobby Lobby chain has more than 500 stores that employ 13,000 employees across 42 states, and takes in $2.6 billion in sales. It is still privately held by CEO and founder David Green and members of his family.

"The foundation of our business has been, and will continue to be strong values, and honoring the Lord in a manner consistent with biblical principles," a statement on the Hobby Lobby website reads, adding that one outgrowth of that is the store is closed on Sundays to give its employees a day of rest.

MORE BACKGROUND: Hobby Lobby faces millions in fines for bucking Obamacare

The Hobby Lobby case is just one of many before the courts over the religious exemption aspects of the law. The case represents by far the biggest for-profit group challenging the health care mandate.

Part of the reason Sotomayor rejected their appeal to the Supreme Court she wrote was because their case is still pending in the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver.

A spokesperson for the Becket Fund said on Friday a date has yet to be set for the case to be heard in the 10th Circuit.

- CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

Filed under: Belief • Church and state • Courts

soundoff (4,609 Responses)
  1. longchamp uk

    Our pool should really be fed through those photopages that you simply consider well worth becoming an area of the "Best Thought Collection". longchamp uk http://bagslongchampuk.webs.com/

    April 15, 2013 at 1:41 am |
  2. Home Care

    Oh my goodness! Incredible article dude! Thank you so much, However I am going through issues with your RSS. I don’t understand why I can't subscribe to it. Is there anybody getting the same RSS problems? Anyone that knows the solution can you kindly respond? Thanx!!

    April 12, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
  3. Home Care

    Greetings! Very useful advice in this particular article! It's the little changes that will make the largest changes. Many thanks for sharing!

    April 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
  4. tree removal services,alpharetta tree service,atlanta tree services,stump grinding marietta,atlanta tree cutting,atlanta tree removal company,atlanta tree stump removal,tree cutting atlanta

    After exploring a few of the blog posts on your blog, I honestly like your technique of blogging. I bookmarked it to my bookmark site list and will be checking back soon. Please check out my web site too and tell me how you feel.

    April 3, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
  5. James Willson

    After looking over a handful of the articles on your website, I seriously like your way of writing a blog. I book marked it to my bookmark webpage list and will be checking back soon. Please visit my web site too and let me know how you feel.

    March 28, 2013 at 11:51 am |
  6. Connie Saunders

    I applaud Hobby Lobby in taking a stand. I will continue to support your business and your principles! America has always been about choice – The Health Care Act is removing many of those choices.

    March 21, 2013 at 9:05 am |
  7. John

    Religion is a business, I expect the courts to enforce the law regardless of the story why the law doesn't apply to these clowns who hide behind bibles.

    March 20, 2013 at 5:33 pm |
    • John is a clown

      John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John is a clown John Is a IDIOT

      April 2, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
  8. CHAT

    Excellent website. Lots of useful info here. I’m sending it to several friends ans also sharing in delicious. And of course, thanks for your sweat!

    March 19, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
  9. http://thehealthtips4u.com

    This is the perfect website for anyone who wishes to find out about this topic. You realize so much its almost hard to argue with you (not that I actually will need to…HaHa). You certainly put a new spin on a topic that has been discussed for ages. Great stuff, just great!

    March 10, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
  10. Jcube

    To me this is an unnecessary battle. In Dueteronomy 14:21 it says "Do not eat anything you find already dead. You may give it to an alien living in any of your towns, and he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner. But you are a people holy to the Lord your God." It was wrong for Jews to eat anything found dead, but for them to provide it to someone with a non Jewish background it was not wrong, they could even sell it for a profit!!! You see, if these companies have to pay for contraception, they themselves are not being forced to use it, so there is no reason to worry about recieving a Judgemnt from God for doing so. Hobby Lobby does have the option of not running thier own health insurance and having some other company like Anthem, Blue cross, United Healthcare among others do it.

    March 6, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • Jerk

      Let me know when you grow a uterus. Right now I have cramps and feel sick. Like I said, when you get a uterus and can carry a child, let me know! I would like to know how you like it!!

      March 7, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
    • Jerk

      Tonight I'm gonna take plan B then eat a possum that I hit. Or wait, did you want to pay for that baby?? That'll be $30,000.

      March 7, 2013 at 7:13 pm |
    • Jerk

      Awesome decision! If you aren't ready to have a kid than I applaud you to not!!!

      March 7, 2013 at 7:18 pm |
  11. getridofobummer

    Hotairace, were you answering my question. If so...call me stupid if u will, but in made no scence to me. It seemed contradicting. I am not trying to be difficult. But it seems if u r pronounced dead when your heart stops beating, the on that same principal you should be alive when your heart starts beating and yet according to the beliefs of the people here that is not so. I wonder why.

    February 8, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
  12. getridofobummer

    What nobody can come up with an answer?

    February 8, 2013 at 12:08 am |
  13. getrideofobummer

    Why is it you are pronounced dead when your heart stops beating, but you're not considered alive when your heart starts beating????

    February 7, 2013 at 11:02 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      In. word, viability. A fetus is not viable outside the womb just because it has a heartbeat. Without a heartbeat, no one is viable.

      February 8, 2013 at 12:12 am |
    • phoenix1920

      You can be pronounced brain-dead with a beating heart. Again, unless your body can sustain life on its own, is it life?

      February 9, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
  14. Robert

    In order to understand this you need to see that there is an agenda to bring "Free Wheeling America" under "submission" to Islam and the NWO. It is coming into full swing, this is only an opening salvo. Pray more than ever before we loose our freedom to serve God freely.

    February 5, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Now tell us how the aliens stuck something up your ass.

      February 5, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @robert.........................When will you finally get over the fact your guy lost the election? Pleeease move on.

      February 5, 2013 at 5:09 pm |
    • Robert

      My Guy is Not an elected official, He is an appointee with a never ending term of office!

      February 7, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • For the love of

      You typed in the website wrong. You're looking for worldnetdaily or infowars. Please go be a rapture loving hump over there.

      February 7, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @robert.................Are you saying your guy is a never ending azzhole?

      February 7, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
    • Robert

      It seems that there are too many who don't understand His purpose or agenda. Try Bible, New Testament, Book of John 12:48-50

      February 8, 2013 at 7:44 am |
    • Ken Margo

      Oh we understand his purpose. He has no purpose. Your purpose on the other hand is live a delusional life.

      February 8, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
  15. ohmuhguhfood

    Isn't it amazing that following their religion would save them a lot of money? And when following their religion instead of the law starts to cost money they decide that the law isn't fair, instead of paying the fine and deciding that's the price of their faith? Want to prove your faith, Mr. Green? Pay the fine with a smile. Tell everyone that following God's will is worth more than money.

    February 3, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Refusing to buy birth control doesn't save anyone money and actually raises the insurance company's costs. They just don't pass it on because it's bad PR. But what will happen if we let this pass is that employers will realize that morally objecting to expensive treatments *can* save them money.

      February 5, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
  16. Joni

    Good for you Hobby Lobby. keep on fighting for what you believe in and don't let that self appointed "King" put you out of business!

    January 31, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • End Religion

      What is with the right's "talking points"? You all parrot the same hyperbole. If monarchies are so awful be sure to stop practicing your religion since it likely involves worshiping a King.

      January 31, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
    • Kathi

      End Religion, the answer to worshiping a King is the King we worship is a benevolent leader and humans cannot be counted on to be honorable benevolent leaders. And if a King turns out to be a bad leader there's nothing you can do to remove them.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:33 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Joni and Kathi...........You both need to grow up. Plan B PREVENTS the need for abortions. Why cant simpletons like you gals understand that? I've stated before. If HL employees pay for plan b out of their own pocket. HL still provided the pay. So the money is still coming from HL NO MATTER WHAT! As 2 women (I ASSUME) you should understand the need for birth control.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
    • Kathi

      HL isn't arguing against birth control. They're arguing against medical coverage that leads to abortion. Medicinal or procedural. I have used birth control but I have a problem with people that see nothing wrong with killing a living thing because of the inconvenience of the next 9 months. When you get pregnant and think killing their baby is more acceptable than carrying the baby to term and then putting him/her up for adoption then you have something wrong with you. I've already addressed harm to the mother in other posts and all the unwanted kids not adopted so feel free to scan the posts for my explanation. I don't feel like repeating it over and over. And as for abortion vs death penalty, baby=innocent, death penalty for inmate=not innocent. I feel quite ok about killing a person that murdered someone.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Ken

      There's no reason to point out anything to Joni or Kathi. The consistent and obvious theocratic talking points cannot be argued against because it's based on nothing but "preacher and Rushie said it".

      January 31, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Kathi – "baby=innocent"

      So, I take it you don't believe in the "fall of man" and, therefore, are not a Christian. I'm relieved you don't believe in that sort of tosh.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
    • Kathi

      Really-O, no I'm not a born again Christian. I am a member of the LDS church. I believe that we are all responsible for our own sins. Our interpretation of the rest is a little much to go into here. Yes I believe that at age 8 we become responsible for the choices we make. We don't baptize anyone younger than 8 years old.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:14 pm |
    • Jen

      Kathi,
      The morning after pill has nothing to do with abortions in any way. Maybe you should have some idea of what you are talking about before you post.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:15 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @hawaii.................What scares me is Kathi repeating ignorance. When someone lies to make a point. They have no point. She has no problem with killing (EXECUTIONS) AFTER someone is born. Despite the FACT that the death penalty has been applied to the poor and minorities with more frequency. The innocents projects has FREED 18 people who were on death row, but none of that has any meaning to kathi.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:19 pm |
    • Kathi

      Ken, according to the story above 'The statement continued that "Hobby Lobby does not provide coverage for abortion-inducing drugs in its health care plan'.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:20 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Kathi -

      Forthright answer, thank you.

      You do realize that Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius has stated in a congressional hearing that PPACA will not require insurance plans to cover any abortifacients (which cause the death of a human embyro), right? If so, Hobby Lobby is tilting at windmills (and, perhaps you are also) and they should not be surprised if/when they are slapped with a hefty fine.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:22 pm |
    • The Truth

      Kathi, it's your definition of abortion that is at issue. Most pro-choice persons accept the legal definition of when an embryo is considered a human and thus bearing human rights and all that entails. This is set at the point when the child is able to survive outside the womb or about 22 weeks. Most "pro-lifers" or "anti-abortionists" are those who feel that this should occur earlier, with many claiming they should get human rights at the moment the egg and sperm meet. The majority of those claiming this do so based on their religious belief that some invisible, undetectable and, even stranger, immortal spirit called a soul is created by their all powerful deity at the moment of conception and thus we have a responsibility to see that deities will through, regardless of whether it was conceived by r a p e or if that deities plan was to miscarry anyway. That is the crux of our issue. If I do not believe in your God then I have no responsibility to see your deities will carried out and I do not believe it has a soul thus it's not a person until the law says it is and the morning after pill is 22 months away from encroaching on any human rights, though to deny a woman the right to use it based on your belief in an invisible spirit creature is, to put it mildly, insane.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:23 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      I'm telling you guys, there's no use citing facts here. Kathi obviously doesn't care to understand exactly what an abortifacent is, and is happy parroting the anti-choice theocratic talking heads.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:25 pm |
    • Jen

      Though Hawaii is probably right, that's not even the definition I'm using Truth. An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. A woman is not pregnant until implantation. The morning after pill does not cause abortions. Hobby lobby is making up their own definition of abortion by calling the morning after pill abortion inducing.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:34 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Jen -

      While your definition of pregnancy is correct, If one believes that a soul is infused at the moment of conception – which many Christians do., without, of course, any evidence- then fertilization is the "acid test" for them, not implantation. That said, "morning after pills" do not cause abortion by either measure as they prevent fertilization. Hobby Lobby deserves a whopping fine if for no other reason than their willful ignorance.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • End Religion

      @kathi: "the King we worship is a benevolent leader and humans cannot be counted on to be honorable benevolent leaders"

      Ummm.... hello? Benevolent? According to the bible your King decimates entire peoples on a whim. If you buy the flood, he KILLED THE ENTIRE PLANET except those on his magic boat. It appears humans aren't the only ones who can't be counted on to be honorable, benevolent leaders.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
    • Jen

      I agree really-o though it is possible for conception to have already occurred with the morning after pill (it prevents ovulation but if ovulation has already occurred it can block implantation).

      My issue is Hobby Lobby calling it abortion inducing. That is wrong – period. They can call it a drug that blocks implantation, they can even call it a drug that ends a newly fertilized life if they so choose. Don't call it abortion when it's not one. They use the word abortion simply because of the emotion that word stirs in people.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      Life starts when that baby comes out period. When babies are born nobody says they are 9 months old! They are called zygotes, embryos and fetuses for a reason. THEY ARE NOT A BABY. Pro lifers like to "age" the fetus to fit their argument. If you allow people to "age" things to fit their argument. Then a child molester can call a child a "consenting adult" when they molest them. Now fetuses have "souls" That's a new one to me. Next they'll have a high school diploma when they come out!

      January 31, 2013 at 8:51 pm |
    • Kathi

      Truth, I'm not forcing you or any other person to live by my code or religious belief. I'm putting my foot down to allow others that belive as I do to stand for their beliefs and not be force to participate in somthing that is against their belief. I vote against abortion but in the event that I am out voted I and those that I align myself with will not riot or cause harm to another human being.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Jen -

      You're on completely solid ground Jen. It is, however, important that we all say loud-and-clear that the probability of the medical evidence indicates that FDA approved emergency contraceptives prevent fertilization, not implantation. If this isn't pointed out ad nauseam, those with a bend similar to Hobby Lobby will keep believing and repeating nonsense.

      Cheers

      January 31, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Kathi

      1) Voting to outlaw abortion IS attempting to force others to conform to your beliefs.
      2) Have you not been paying attention to the people outside clinics assaulting people, barring entrances, and even trying to harm the doctors?
      3) If the employees use their wages to get the morning after pill, it's the same as if the insurance company HL uses to insure their employees providing it.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Kathi......Please, spare us the crap. Your belief is garbage. Where is your belief when the baby is hungry, needs food, clothes, healthcare. Your phony sorry AZZ is no where to be found. I know your type will feed YOUR ego by talking about how you donate to this or that, or volunteer here or there. Bottom line you have to help THEM ALL. So your Mutt Romney/republican philosophy of helping only the ones YOU feel deserve the help wont fly.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @hawaiiguest -

      While I certainly don't agree with Kathi, her posts seem to be quite restrained and, if not necessarily well reasoned, at least consistent. I admit this is my first exposure to Kathi's posts so it is certainly within the realm of possibility that I'm missing something or this thread is out of character. Lord knows even Chad has moments of candor and reason.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:17 pm |
    • Kathi

      I don't pretend to know when the spirit is in the body of the fetus but when I was working in the maternal child unit I had the opportunity to use the "doppler" to listen to the heartbeat of fetuses. In the first trimester the baby was already moving to get out of the way of it. I would rather err on the side of caution to protect the innocent. We don't have absolute knowledge when the spirit is there. I will not have an innocent life on my hands. My first experience with someone I knew faced with abortion was a coworker being coerced by her husband to have it. And in many other situations it was the man in the life that was pushing for it. It seems to me that abortion is pushed more by men that feel nothing for the "fetus" and therefore want the choice to be free to live without the obligation for a life. Otherwise why wouldn't adoption in the event of an "oops" be considered a better option.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:18 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...I should have said, "While I certainly don't agree with all of the positions articulated by Kathi", not "While I certainly don't agree with Kathi". I do, actually, agree with some of Kathi's stated positions.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Kathi, Plan B does NOT cause abortion.

      What you think of someone else's personal medical decisions is completely irrelevant. They aren't your decisions to make.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:26 pm |
    • Jen

      I stand corrected really-o. I just looked it up and see that the studies support this. For some reason the FDA is not allowing the manufacturer to take the implantation warning off the label (and the label information is what the pro lifers keep posting on here over and over).

      Thanks for the info!

      January 31, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son – "...Plan B does NOT cause abortion."

      Testify! This cannot be said too frequently – the probability of the medical evidence indicates that FDA approved emergency contraceptives prevent fertilization, not implantation.

      Cheers

      January 31, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Jen -

      My pleasure.

      Cheers

      January 31, 2013 at 9:31 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Really-O?

      Her posts may seem reasonable, but they are all still dishonest. Case in point, I put 3 points, all of which without any pulemic language, and she chooses to ignore it because it points out her own inconsistencies. She has also studiously ignored every single point that shows how Plan B is not an abortifacent, which is what this article is about, and continues to exercise her ability to not engage in anything resembling honest discourse. People like her make me sick to my stomach.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @really......................That's the problem. She like others that think like her are NOT well reasoned. Why doesn't Kathi and her god give us a solution to the hungry, homeless, sick and suffering that is going on RIGHT NOW. The #1 reason women have abortions, take plan b or birth control is that they cant afford the kid. Kathi makes giving birth seem like a piece of cake. Just have the child and put it up for adoption. No big deal. Kathi fails to realize maybe they don't have insurance and don't have the money to give birth at the safety of a hospital. Maybe the mother already has a health issue or mental issue. Logical reasons to terminate a pregnancy. People like Kathi, Joni, chad and others ALWAYS leave out the issues that are just as important as having the baby itself.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:34 pm |
    • Kathi

      Ken, first of all babies are a precious few. There are more parents that want to adopt than there are babies to be adopted. As for older children, the social services are always in the business of those trying to adopt. I know many who have adopted older children or who have tried. The parents of older children, not babies, who are on drugs or neglegent are given chances over and over to get their act together, messing with the children every time they go back and forth. The prospective adoptive parents get to the point that they stop believing they'll ever get them. A friend of min recently was trying to adopt a 6 year old. She and her husband have 3 of their own girls. Because of the screwtiny they went through for the adoption they were about to lose the 3 of their own. Another friend was a foster mother. One of the sweetest women I ever worked with at my kids' school. As a result of the accusations from the foster kids because they lost privileges they started to consider taking their kids away. If government would change the laws to get the kids away from clearly bad parents and stop persecuting good ones trying to make things better then there would be more children adopted.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Kathi's posts may seem restrained, but she repeats the canard that pregnancy is just an "inconvenience" that lasts for 9 months. That is simply absurd. It is not just some "inconvenience" for a teenage girl who is still in high school. It is not just an "inconvenience" for a woman who has 3 children already and cannot afford to feed another. It is not just some "inconvenience" simply because that's how Kathi views it.

      For someone to claim that being pregnant is just a minor inconvenience is insulting to women who may face lives and situations that Kathi and her ilk can't begin to imagine.

      You don't know what anyone else is facing. You don't have a right to tell any woman what is best for her. Mind your own business and stay out of others' personal decisions.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:40 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Kathi, women aren't incubators for those who want to adopt. There is no reason any women must continue a pregnancy if she doesn't want to. Your feelings about it are only pertinent to your life.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @hawaiiguest – I have quite a bit of exposure to your posts so I'm inclined to trust your judgement. We all know how frustrating and infuriating dishonesty can be (can I get a "Chad"? Whoop whoop). I have also informed Kathi that Plan B One-Step is not an abortifacient, a fact upon which she has not commented.

      @Ken Margo – I concur.

      @hawaiiguest & @Ken Margo – I'm in your corner with regard to Roe v Wade. I do, however, believe that the "abortion issue" is mired in extremism on both sides. As I see it, the real debate should be centered on suffering and when a fetus becomes sentient (hint: The current probability of the evidence indicates this is not before 26 weeks).

      January 31, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @kathi................"Ken, first of all babies are a precious few". There are over 3 million kids born every year in the US. So I wouldn't call it a precious few. You didn't offer any solutions to situations I presented. I'm not really surprised. So keep your head in the sand when it comes to dealing with REAL LIFE. And finally, when somebody wants an abortion, please put your head back in the sand.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:47 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Kathi – "There are more parents that want to adopt than there are babies to be adopted."

      This isn't accurate. In the united states the demand for white infants is greater than the supply of white infants. There is no queue waiting to adopt HIV positive minority infants, children with cleft lip and palate or any number of other congenital disorders, or 4+ year old children. You need to keep this honest.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:53 pm |
    • The Truth

      "when I was working in the maternal child unit I had the opportunity to use the "doppler" to listen to the heartbeat of fetuses. In the first trimester the baby was already moving to get out of the way of it. I would rather err on the side of caution to protect the innocent. We don't have absolute knowledge when the spirit is there."

      I'll bet you will hear the same sounds if you "doppler"ed a pregnant pig and yet i'm guessing you still eat bacon, yes? Or it's different because you know somehow the pig fetus is never given a soul but the human fetus get's their invisible, undetectable immortal soul at some point during the sausage making...

      January 31, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @really...............The abortion issue shouldn't be mired in "extremism" If you don't believe in abortions, fine don't have one. People need to mind their business. If my wife and I wanted a abortion, and kathi happen to get wind of it and wanted my wife to have the child. I would ask kathi some simple questions.

      Are you going to feed it?
      Are you going to buy clothes for it?
      Are you going to pay for healthcare?
      Are you going to provide shelter for it?

      I guarantee her answer would be NO NO NO NO. THAT IS WHY PEOPLE LIKE KATHI SHOULD MIND HER BUSINESS. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Ken Margo -

      Again, my lawn chair resides on your side of the fence. However, as point of illustration with regard to extremism, I can't imagine that you would find it ethical to rush your 9-month pregnant wife to Planed Parenthood when her labor starts and demand an abortion because the fetus has not yet been delivered...right? You see, that would be a glaring example of an extreme position. There is common ground to be found, at least for the secular, with regard to the discussion about the ethics of abortion.

      January 31, 2013 at 10:03 pm |
    • Really-O?

      Planned Parenthood, not Planed Parenthood. I really hate careless typos.

      January 31, 2013 at 10:04 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Really...............If my wife's health was at risk. I would encourage her to abort the pregnancy even at 9 months. We could always try again. I cant try again if she is dead. If the decision is mine because she couldn't speak, i would abort the pregnancy! NO DOUBT! My wife and I are fortunate. We have healthcare. My wife would be getting all the prenatal care she needs to have a healthy baby. Unfortunately a lot of people aren't as fortunate. Does this sound extreme? I don't think so. This is why people need to mind their business when it comes to decisions like this!

      January 31, 2013 at 10:12 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Ken Margo -

      Again, we're in the same camp. You do, however, realize you changed arguments mid-stream by introducing the ethical dilemma of the fetus putting your wife's life at risk, right? Look, from an ethical standpoint, abortion should be freely available under any circumstances up until the time the fetus is sentient (and we don't currently have a definitive answer on when this is, but it is most probably well after the 26th week) and freely available any time the woman's health or life is in jeopardy. Those seem pretty reasonable, right? (that's not a trick question).

      January 31, 2013 at 10:20 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Really..............That's why it should be a personal decision. I'm not for abortion. I don't celebrate abortions. I feel each individual has to make the best decision for themselves. Let the patients make that determination.

      January 31, 2013 at 10:28 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Ken Margo -

      Reasonable common ground. Now, if we could only get the religious fanatics to come to their senses.

      Cheers

      January 31, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
    • Jen

      Really o, I'm not aware of any state that allows abortions for women in the third trimester if they are healthy. Are you?

      Actually, I'm originally from Canada where there are no legal restrictions on abortions. However, you won't find a doctor that will perform one at nine months. So, I don't think we need to debate it if it's not happening.

      January 31, 2013 at 10:34 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Jen & Really..................Hello Jen, Women that carry that far along have every intention of having the baby. I'll go as far as to say NO WOMAN would consider a abortion after carrying for 9 months. My example was an extreme example in my belief of choice.

      January 31, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Jen -

      Hi Jen. My "abortion at nine months" scenario was simply to make the point that extreme positions on both sides of the abortion issue are liable to be logically unsupportable. And no, I'm not aware of any U.S state that permits abortion at nine months. Do you ever miss Canada? In many ways it seems Canadians are more socially evolved than we Southern-Americans.

      January 31, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...perhaps that should be "Southern-North Americans".

      January 31, 2013 at 10:47 pm |
    • Really-O?

      ...and also should be "And no, I'm not aware of any U.S state that permits abortion in the third trimester".

      January 31, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • Really-O?

      And I do love me some Bob and Doug...
      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3DYbE44OIE&w=640&h=390]

      January 31, 2013 at 10:56 pm |
    • brenda

      Joni, my sentiments exactly. How dare him try to legislate his sorry morals on anyone. The one who thinks himself king will be judged by the true King.

      You go Hobby Lobby. Keep as you are.

      February 1, 2013 at 12:43 am |
    • Jen

      Love it really o – thanks for posting! I really miss Canada but I love the US. You live in the south? I'm in MA. Don't think I would make it in the south (no offense because obviously there are many great people that live there). I've been to Texas and met some great people but the politics there actually scares the sh-t out of me.

      Only two things I hate about the US – politics and health care. Ironic no? I miss the non-extremism of Canada, that you are
      talking about. Nobody gives a crap about your religion or lack thereof, etc. If you're nice is the only thing that matters.

      February 1, 2013 at 3:18 am |
    • Really-O?

      @Jen -

      Actually, my "Southern-North American" was referencing the states – Canada would be "Northern-North America" (or, as a friend says to tease his Canadian wife, "Canada is America's hat". Not quit sure what that means, but it irritates her). I live in the most south-west bit of the continental states. I've traveled to both southern Canada (west – east) and MA – both are beautiful (although MA does have quite a few flying critters in the summer, as I remember),

      Nice chatting with you.

      February 1, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      Does the school system in the US teach people to be idiots or does the US do the best job of creating them? Brenda has now joined the fringe.

      February 1, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
    • For the love of

      To my knowledge they do not have the tax-exempt status the renders them a recognized religious authority where in those who manage the services and payroll get to tell the staff what treatments cannot be covered, as per scriptural doctrine. As such while the business is welcome to operate with a Christian ethos they do not have the right to impose restrictions based on said doctrines even if the employee belongs to the same faith.

      It is the duty of the church to tell it's flock do this or don't do that and have faith they will follow, not to lobby to regulate in a manner that holds a singular religious view higher than another through governmental authority, that is a theocracy.

      PS he won in a election, electoral and popular get over it.

      February 7, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
  17. Truther

    Liberals like to compare apples and oranges. A blood transfusion is far different than causing the murder of a helpless unborn baby. Maybe the owners of Hobby Lobby like to be able to sleep at night, knowing they are not contributing to a baby's death.
    I hate the idea that one thin dime of my tax money is going to Planned (Un) Parenthood. If these simpleminded bimbos
    were smart enough to take "the pill" everyday, they would not need the morning after pill.

    January 27, 2013 at 1:46 am |
    • ¿¿lol

      There are other situations where using the morning after pill as back-up is warranted. Perhaps one is normally careful, has side-effects from the morning after pill and a rubber breaks or she is raped for instance.

      January 27, 2013 at 1:49 am |
    • Ken Margo

      Please stop with the liberal crap. The reason pro lifers have zero credibility on this issue is because we have the death penalty in this country. In other words life is important until we want to kill you. We cant get REASONABLE gun control in this country because of pro life republicans (Please don't take them guns) . Republicans are against Health care reform. (The nerve of people wanting to see a doctor.) Children are homeless, hungry, not graduating high school, autism etc. The gap between rich and poor is growing by the second. YOU don't care about the kids that are here already, so why should we believe you care about the kids that aren't here yet.

      January 28, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
    • A Moralist

      Agreed.
      And is there any age limit to how old you can be to get these contraseptives or should businesses that have young people working for them be giving condoms to 15 year olds.

      January 28, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      15 yr old's should be under the parents insurance. Not the business he/she works part time for.

      January 28, 2013 at 9:53 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      Remember. It's NOT the business that provides the contraceptives. It's the INSURANCE CO.

      January 28, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Another moron who can't figure out that Plan B doesn't have a thing to do with abortion, other than that it prevents the need for one.

      Grow a friggin' brain. You're too stupid to have an opinion on this issue.

      January 28, 2013 at 9:55 pm |
    • CoFl;yBoy

      I wish your mother had take "the pill". We wouldn't have to read your mindless drivel on this forum.

      January 29, 2013 at 1:06 am |
    • Kathi

      No Ken, it's not the insurance company. It's the company paying for the insurance.

      January 31, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • sam

      Just say what you really mean. C'mon, you know you want to. "If these whores would keep their legs together, all these problems would be solved."

      Idiot fundies.

      January 31, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @kathi.................Employee and employer ARE BOTH PAYING INTO THE INSURANCE NOT JUST THE COMPANY. Once HL pays it's premium, it's no longer their money. So their position doesn't have merit. Some have said the employee should pay out of their pocket. The fault with that logic is, the pay is coming from HL. So HL money is involved either way you look at it.

      January 31, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
    • End Religion

      any moniker with "truth" in it seems invariably not.

      January 31, 2013 at 6:51 pm |
    • Kathi

      Ken, I don't agree. Once the money is in the hands of the employee it no longer belongs to HL. The employee has the option to do as they please with it. No matter what portion the empoyer pays they have a right not to pay for something that leads to abortion.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @kathi....................You cannot have your own facts. PLAN B PREVENTS ABORTIONS.

      Pls explain the difference between employee using pay from HL to buy plan b OR HL paying ins. company and then the ins. company provides plan b to employee? The money isn't in HL hands in either case!

      Please deal with reality!!!!

      January 31, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • Really-O?

      @Ken Margo -

      Well reasoned arguments.

      Cheers

      January 31, 2013 at 7:51 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Really...............I'm more concerned about the responses!

      January 31, 2013 at 7:53 pm |
    • The Truth

      "No Ken, it's not the insurance company. It's the company paying for the insurance."

      Kathi, take a look at your auto insurance policy. Check out that section on uninsured motorist bodily injury liability. You are likely paying to insure someone else if they hit you and didn't have any or enough bodily injury liability to cover your injuries. That person might have had several abortions or might be a mass murderer or worse, gaaaaaaaay!! Oh no! You pay money to your insurance company which could be used on behalf of people you disagree with!! SHOCK!!

      January 31, 2013 at 10:13 pm |
  18. Catholic hospital: fetus is not a person

    such HYPOCRISY by religious extremists is RAMPANT

    (story on page 1)

    January 26, 2013 at 7:41 pm |
    • Kathi

      Why is it hypocrisy not to want to pay for something you don't agree with? They're not trying to make the drugs illegal. They're not saying they can't work there if they pay for them themselves. They're saying they don't want to foot the bill for killing babies.

      January 31, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • sam

      Kathi...your response has zero to do with the story the OP was referencing.

      January 31, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • Kathi

      Sam, yes my comment has everything to do with the story. If you disagree please explain.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:38 pm |
  19. Jim Forester

    I would fire the democrates. If I had to pay for this against my will, being forced to heel, than the people that put
    this swine in are paying for it with there jobs. Other wise close the stores. Obama will take care of everyone he knows
    what's best for us.

    January 26, 2013 at 6:10 pm |
    • End Religion

      We may be able to discuss this if you'd speak English.

      January 26, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      Why do I get the odd feeling that you're not and will never be in a position to fire or hire anybody?

      OH MY GOODNESS! GOD IS SPEAKING TO ME! I FEEL IT!

      January 26, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • Jen

      Ha ha! Thanks for the laugh tank and end religion!

      January 26, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
  20. Mother of 3

    Jen

    I don't really understand why you aren't okay with an employer paying for birth control but you are okay with going to a free clinic where you as a taxpayer pays for it....

    No answer on my question...no? Didn't think so.

    Jen- I'm ok with going to a free clinic where we as taxpayer pays for it because I like that the services are available for people to have other choices.
    ("I don't really understand why you aren't okay with an employer paying for birth control") Because they are being fined $1.3 million a day because they made a choice that this didn't fit into their beliefs and stood by it. I respect that. It is after all their company, their dream, their vision. Shame on others for condemning them for their choices and then argue peoples right to choices.
    I chose to debate on this thread regardless of my personal beliefs about birth control because I believe this an injustice. Any good debater can argue both sides of any issue. I could sit here and debate from your side, but I sympathize for theirs. They are being told to conform to a belief system not their own. As a mother of 3 I teach my children to stand up for their beliefs, now the law is showing them they can't because their freedom is being taken from them. My daughter showed me this article and was very upset. So here I am.

    January 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So what if you believed whole-heartedly that blood transfusions were an abomination? Would that make it okay to deny your employees a health insurance plan that covered them? HL is basing its objection on a belief that has NO foundation in fact. None.

      January 26, 2013 at 7:33 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      There are many beliefs out there. Just because someone is willing to stand for them does not make them valid.

      January 26, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Nor do those beliefs exempt them from obeying the law.

      I fail to understand why in the world your kid is all upset about this. I smell BS all over your post.

      January 26, 2013 at 7:38 pm |
    • tallulah13

      A for-profit business is subject to the laws the govern for-profit businesses, no matter the religion of the owners. If Hobby Lobby does not wish to obey the law of the land, they should either cease operation or stop complaining when they face the same punishment that a business owned by a non-religious person would face.

      January 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm |
    • Jen

      I think everybody here covered it for me. You are not exempt from the law because you don't believe in things. I don't believe in war – that doesn't mean I can opt out of paying taxes for them.

      January 26, 2013 at 9:12 pm |
    • DERP

      There is no limit then to who can get them so then they could be giving condoms to your 15 year old son who works at hobby lobby. Do you have any moral problems with that?

      January 28, 2013 at 9:02 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      No, I don't have a problem with a 15-year-old boy getting a con dom, idiot. Especially if it's YOUR kid. Who'd want any more of your genes in the pool?

      You're a moron. A 15-year-old working at HL part time isn't going to be getting his health insurance from them. Are you really that stupid? Fifteen-year-olds are covered under their parents' insurance, and regardless, con doms aren't being handed out anyway.

      Jesus, what a dumfvck.

      January 28, 2013 at 9:59 pm |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61

Post a comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.