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January 15th, 2013
08:28 AM ET

iReport: Why I Raise My Children Without God

Editor's Note: Deborah Mitchell, a mother of two teenagers in Texas, blogs about raising her children without religion. An avid reader of the Belief Blog, she said she shared this essay on CNN iReport because 'I just felt there is not a voice out there for women/moms like me. I think people misunderstand or are fearful of people who don’t believe in God.'

By Deborah Mitchell, Special to CNN

(CNN)–When my son was around 3 years old, he used to ask me a lot of questions about heaven. Where is it? How do people walk without a body? How will I find you? You know the questions that kids ask.

For over a year, I lied to him and made up stories that I didn’t believe about heaven. Like most parents, I love my child so much that I didn’t want him to be scared. I wanted him to feel safe and loved and full of hope. But the trade-off was that I would have to make stuff up, and I would have to brainwash him into believing stories that didn’t make sense, stories that I didn’t believe either.

One day he would know this, and he would not trust my judgment. He would know that I built an elaborate tale—not unlike the one we tell children about Santa—to explain the inconsistent and illogical legend of God.

And so I thought it was only right to be honest with my children. I am a non-believer, and for years I’ve been on the fringe in my community. As a blogger, though, I’ve found that there are many other parents out there like me. We are creating the next generation of kids, and there is a wave of young agnostics, atheists, free thinkers and humanists rising up through the ranks who will, hopefully, lower our nation’s religious fever.

Read Mitchell's 7 reasons she's raising her children without God

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Opinion

soundoff (1,688 Responses)
  1. Bootyfunk

    why would anyone worship the chrisitan god? yahweh is a maniac. just take his great flood for example. god drowned every human on earth but one family. that means he drowned babies. read that again: BABIES. not only babies, but the elderly, infirm, mentally challenged, physically challenged, etc. what kind of a sick monster can fill an infant's lungs with water and call it divine justice? there is no excuse for infanticide. how can anyone worship a baby killer?

    that's why this lady is raising her kid atheist. so her child doesn't believe in the atrocious fairy tales of the bible. worshiping a baby killing deity that doesn't actually exist is not good for you. a million hands in prayer aren't worth a single pair of hands hard at work. unclasp your hands. get up off your knees. think for yourself. go outside and help your brothers and sisters. congratulations - you're now a better person.

    January 15, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Believe in me or burn for eternity. Sound just to me. NOT! What a great all loving creator we have.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
  2. Correctlycenter

    Typical atheist parent who chooses to deny the reality of God and lie to their children with a bunch of "made up stuff". If you do not properly teach your children, someone on the street or on the internet will. And the second option never turns out too well...The bible is God's absolute true word, why deny your children the truth?

    January 15, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "The bible is God's absolute true word, why deny your children the truth?"

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      You have ABSOLUTELY no evidence that your point of view is correct. NONE.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Not to mention that the world is NOT a circle or held up by pillars as the bible says. And all of the other hundreds of contradictions in that book of multiple guess.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • Really??

      SAme troll different name
      TBT, Buster etc. just trolling for responses.
      do not feed the troll.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      god is not the truth - god is a fairy tale. your god is no different than zeus, ra or odin. the bible is a collection of stories plagiarized from other cultures/religions. she's raising her child to be a free thinker - something you know nothing about.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • SImran

      @CC,
      In truth, if you do not teach your children to have an open mind and question their beliefs, it is much more likely that someone else on the street or internet will!
      This is the age of information, and all of it is out there.
      Several atheists on this blog have been raised in Christian families, they have been TAUGHT the so-called truth about God!

      January 15, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      The Bible is BS.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
  3. Science

    PBS Nova Decoding Neanderthals doc-umentary

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nH1fqd0Ryo&w=640&h=390]

    January 15, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
    • Science

      Brand New Must watch if you do not want to explain to your kids where god was 60,000 years ago please go for it

      January 15, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
  4. Wie Yu So Dum

    Child: I don't think the earth is round because I don't have any proof.
    Adult: Dear child, we trust people who went out into space or sent cameras into space to take pictures of it and we just believe what they say without prooving it.
    Child: Thank you.

    January 15, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Who you gonna call? Dingbat Busters!

      Another stupid Christian.

      The sun rises every day and arcs across the sky. Not faith but evidence.

      If you stand on a shore, you see the top of a ship come over the horizon firs then the middle, then down to the waterline. Evidence of curvature, not faith.

      Didn't need a spaceship, idiot. The Greeks accurately measres the circumference of the Earth 200 years before Jesus was born.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      The pictures alone are proof without the aircraft and ships that circumnavigate the earth.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Wei Yu So Dum

      @Who you gonna call? Dingbat Busters!

      There is no evidence that greeks prooved it. I have no proof that they even existed. I think someone made that up. What is your source? Its a fairytale. I've never seen a ship come from the horizon. Why should I trust you? I trust moral people who have moral values. Why should I trust anything what the immoral gay Atheists have to say? I think Darwin never existed either. There is no evidence for it. BTW, I am not a idol-worshipping Christian. Jesus was not God.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      Child: i think the earth is round because there are mountains of proof to show it is.
      Adult: Wrong. The bible says the earth is flat, so it's flat.
      Child: You're an idiot. You should read a science book and put the bible down - it teaches you to be stupid.
      Adult: Amen.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • A nice gentile boy

      Answer the question in your handle

      January 15, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
  5. Huh?

    "You will be tortured as punishment for breaking the laws. You deserve it. That makes it just. You earned it for itself. You can't blame the judge if YOU commit the crime. It doesn't work that way."

    You really think that torturing someone for eternity is just? Really? Then that further proves how evil your religion is. I would call it entrapment and that is not just.

    January 15, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • Huh?

      Ok working on issue with the reply button. posted again in wrong place. LOL! GRRRR!

      January 15, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
  6. Science

    18. Major Events in the Geological Theatre
    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Dl_Vs-ZkY&w=640&h=390]

    January 15, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Science

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nH1fqd0Ryo&w=640&h=390]

      January 15, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
  7. myweightinwords

    My niece and nephew grew up in a house where the three adults in it were 1) Atheist with Buddhist leanings, 2) non-practicing Catholic and 3) Pagan.

    When they inevitably asked the questions about god and heaven and all the rest, we answered them as best and honestly as we could, based on their age level and understanding. We would offer them "some people believe this and others this" rather than telling them what to believe. They would, of course, ask us what we believed, and they would generally get three different answers. I think it really helped them to understand that answers weren't going to be given to them, they were going to have to figure out what they believed on their own.

    When they asked to go to church with a friend, we'd let them go, and answer questions when they came back.

    My niece is 17 now, and went through a religious phase between 13 and 15 or so, not surprisingly because she was interested in a young man who went to the church and was religious. When she realized that the church she was attending (and the boy) condemned her for who she was (not that she had said anything to anyone), she started to back away and examine what she believed and what she knew.

    Today, I believe that she still believes in some form of higher power, but she no longer attends church and is secure in who she is, which is more than a lot of seventeen year olds can say.

    January 15, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
    • New Athiest

      Why is it so hard to say, "I don't know"?
      If you don't have all the answers just say so.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        I'm not sure I understand what makes you believe I ever said I had all the answers.

        When discussing matters of belief we always stress that no one knows for certain and that each of us can only believe what our experience tells us.

        January 15, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
  8. Renee

    If your family does not believe in God, how did your child know to ask about heaven? You have every right to raise your child as you choose, but isn't there something to be said about a child's inherent curiosity about the soul? And also that the hope of heaven and an afterlife brings comfort? Where do you think those feelings originate? I think you may be more of a believer than you realize! Why not look into it?

    January 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • meifumado

      They live in Texas, im sure her child is bombarded with religion every time they leave the house

      January 15, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • Johnny Blammo

      What a stupid question. Because all the other children whose parents are already propagandizing their children with indoctrination run around asking others about it.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Do you honestly believe that any Atheist hasn't "looked into it"?

      Most of them have, more thoroughly than most believers.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      all children are born atheists. it's not until parents indoctrinate their children into the cult that they start to believe in an invisible sky-fairy.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
  9. Honey Badger Dont Care

    What a great parent Deborah is (NOT!). Just lie to your kids. What a bunch of B S.

    I’ve always been open and honest to my kids about religion. And when my girls come home from the xtian daycare we go over what they learned from a truly open and honest point of view. It’s really fun when they go back to the daycare and talk about what they learned. LOL

    Religion is so easy to destroy.

    January 15, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • ME II

      I think she was saying that she decided NOT to lie to her children and NOT teach them to believe in god, heaven, etc.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • meifumado

      I wish religion was easy to destroy

      January 15, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • Mom of 4

      Honey Badger,

      It looks like you didn't read the article...

      January 15, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Religion is easy to destroy. It is the religious delusional fools who are impossible to change.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • Really?

      Careful: by putting your child in a school filled with delusional fools, you are playing with fire. At that age, confoming to the group is FAR more important that ideas and theories. And sooner or latere, your child will be shunned, being the extreme minority, as the other parents tell their kids not to associate with your child. That's how they are – been there, done that.

      And the teachers, kids, and parents WILL make it their mission to "save" your child from your satanic ways, and that imaginary hellfire is much more believable to a very young child.

      Sending your child to an indoctrination center for a belief you strongly reject is not a good idea. It's a strange thing to do, actually.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Mom of 4,

      "For over a year, I lied to him and made up stories that I didn’t believe about heaven."

      Hmmm... Guess you're wrong.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Really?

      Unfortunately these indoctrination centers are the only affordable care where I'm located.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Really?

      I figured that, actually, but they do spend part of your child's day doing religious indoctrination.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
  10. Huh?

    "He created you so He could be glorified. If you choose to reject Him and His offer, He'll be glorified for being just. "

    It already knew before the person was born that it wouldn't accept his offer and the it's going to torture that person for eternity. That is NOT the definition of just.

    I am laughing hysterical at your excuses for your God.

    January 15, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
    • Huh?

      Opps posted in wrong place.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
  11. AtheistSteve

    Here's a link to that NOVA episode. Judgment Day – Intelligent Design on Trial.
    I hope it works this time.

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HZzGXnYL5I&w=640&h=390]

    January 15, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Wow. Poltergeist actually learned how to spell.

      I suppose he'll credit god.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      Anyone have a link to the ID(idiots) successful rebuttal?

      January 15, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
  12. Poltergeist

    '...I think people misunderstand or are fearful of people who don’t believe in God.'

    Good luck promoting understanding when a bunch of Athiest on the blog are busy starting religious arguments below you.

    January 15, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
  13. Eric Vest

    Deborah Mitchell. Was so fun and entertaining to see how you conform to your last name; and first name. Let me break down your name (the way you break apart other's belief in good and bad). I'll relate this to your lack of belief; which is perfectly fine in my good book; as those of you who don't believe in goodness within religion have no place in the world in which I live and choose to embrace the good in all people who understand what religion IS behind the obvious written word. Here's your name: DEBORAH = DE = The / BOR = bore...AH = *yawn* (Other words, you're opinion lacks any depth or care...a thing religious people call a "soul or spirit.") Your last name...(again, interpreted this way due to the posting you have above)....MITCHELL = MIT = might / C = see / HELL = hell. *** I'm sorry you believe telling good stories to children as a way to awaken their hopes and dreams is an impractical thing. But, most boring boars in Chinese Astrology are known to only favor the most practical and dirtiest things in life. SO; Mrs. Mitchell.....You happily can rest assured, from your own personal comments above that the spirit of which enjoys all these things here on Earth you choose to enjoy; will see hell. My first and last name is above. Bullet proof; (when it comes to your ugly words); and spiritual when it comes to placing on of "vestments"....and rather loving of those who embrace any religion as a way to make your own personal day to day life a little more bearable. Enjoy your choice; but, IF there is a heaven.....there is certainly an opposite place.....And...it's never described as a "land of Freedom to say what you wish"......I'd truly hate to be in your mind; thinking at death NOTHING happens after. I repeat: boring.

    January 15, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • midwest rail

      I've read a lot of posts on these blogs, and this is possibly the most childish nonsense ever. Did you stick your fingers in your ears and sing-song "nyah nyah nyah na na " afterward ?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • tallulah13

      Wow, Eric. That must be a real hit with all the other second graders.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • Johnny Blammo

      Stupid, abusive, illogical, infantile . . . Eric's writing has all the hallmarks of Christian "logic."

      And he violates Biblical rules like the Ninth Copmmandment (bearing false witness), doing unto others, judge not lest thou be judges . . .

      I just love watching Christians be total hypocrites.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
  14. Live4Him

    There is no natural explanation for the creation of matter, energy and time.

    Atheist response: I believe that scientists will answer this issue some day in the future.

    Christian response: God created them through supernatural means.

    January 15, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • ME II

      @Live4Him,
      "There is no natural explanation for the creation of matter, energy and time."
      In other words, we don't know.

      Atheist: We don't know.
      Theist: I know, because this book tells me so.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • kirk1

      i came across a beautiful house in the middle of the desert, it had food, air conditioning, heat, gardens, water, what a beautiful home i said. walking on i saw someone and inquired about the house, they told me that they were aware of its existence so i asked who built it, they replied "no one, it just happened to appear, maybe a bunch of slime came & built it or maybe just maybe lightening hit." i was amazed that they were trying to explain that the house wasn't built by anyone, so i looked up at the starry sky, pondered over how much more complex the universe is then a house, come on really, it just happened by accident?

      January 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • Origin of Life

      @l4h
      Where are the fossils of Eve or Adam or the skins of the talking snaske?

      Have bones for a hobbit too!

      Origin of Life: BRAND NEW !
      Hypothesis Traces First Protocells Back to Emergence of Cell Membrane Bioenergetics
      Dec. 20, 2012 — A coherent pathway – which starts from no more than rocks, water and carbon dioxide and leads to the emergence of the strange bio-energetic properties of living cells – has been traced for the first time in a major hypothesis paper in Cell this week.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • ME II

      @kirk1,
      The first "homes" were caves.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • SImran

      @ L4H,

      What causes Consumption (read tuberculosis)?

      Biible Reader: The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.

      Atheist 100yrs ago I don't know, but people are trying to figure out...
      Atheist now: Mycobacterium tuberculosis, and they can treat it too.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • Fan2See

      kirk1

      "i came across a beautiful house in the middle of the desert ..... come on really, it just happened by accident?"

      Silly boy... of course it just had to have been built by a horde of invisible leprechauns, fairies, gnomes and elves. And they love you.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • Science

      @l4h Still waiting on the fossils of Eve.
      They even figured out where the air came from that you enjoy for free.
      see video above for air.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
  15. Reality

    For this "tough-love", honest Mom, a modern-day prayer/creed:

    The Apostles' / Agnostics’ Creed 2013 (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
    ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen
    (References used are available upon request.)

    January 15, 2013 at 11:45 am |
  16. nonprophetadam

    Parenting as an atheist is the new pioneer! Keep up the good work.

    nonprophetadam.wordpress.com

    January 15, 2013 at 11:41 am |
    • Which God?

      Oops. Typo. Disengenuous.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:45 am |
  17. Live4Him

    @Doc Vestibule : Lack of belief is not a belief in and of itself.

    Is this decision only based upon provable facts or some facts and some belief? It's the latter and therefore a religion.

    January 15, 2013 at 11:26 am |
    • sam stone

      Live4Him: It is not a religion.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Where's that "set of beliefs," LiverDoneFailed? You've been blabbering your crap all over the boards and yet you can't answer that question. Why not?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:35 am |
    • Live4Him

      @sam stone : It is not a religion.

      Why not? Because you don't want to acknowledge it as such.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:37 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Live4Him
      You're being obtuse.
      What disease did you doctor say you have when you told him you're asymptomatic?
      Is an apolitical person a Republican or a Democrat?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • Which God?

      live4him. You are a disingenuious little schitt. Stupid too. You believe you gave an answer? I 'believe' that the sun will rise tommorow. Does this make me a sun worshipper?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son : Where's that "set of beliefs"

      Can you PROVE there is no god? No, you just believe it.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • niknak

      It is funny how you fundies STILL have problems with the definition of atheist.
      We don't believe in god(s), therefore we have no religion.
      We believe only in what is provable by facts.
      God is not provable by facts, which is why it is called faith, and not fact.

      I guess in your world, someone who does NOT collect stamps still can call that a hobby the same as the person who does collect them.

      Face the facts bro, you bought into a big lie.
      The sooner yout cut your loses, the better it will be.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:43 am |
    • niknak

      OK livenot4him, prove that space aliens don't exist.
      YOu can't, so by your definition, they then must exist, right?
      Same with bigfoot, and the loch ness monster.

      Not only do you have issues with what an atheist is, you have issues with how basic hypothesis work.
      It is you, the believer, who has made a claim of fact, which is god is real.
      Therefore, the burden of proof lies with you to provide proof of you hypothesis.
      If you can't, then it is called an unproven hypothesis, and then considered false.

      It is not our burden to disprove it.
      Can you undertand that concept?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:48 am |
    • Eric Vest

      For the reply about a non believer not being a religion. Non-believers may not have a building they congregate in to worship....They simply have other things call war ships in which they force other believers to go do the dirty work that a non-believer (who, is a coward of sorts) is too afraid to go do him/herself.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Eric Vest
      Very little of your statement makes any sense.
      Is it your assertion that
      1) Atheists are all cowards
      2) Atheists have built a sea-going armada
      3) The ships in this armada run on slave labour
      4) The labourers are all believers who have been enslaved by said atheists

      January 15, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Sense0326

      It's only a belief in the same sense that I don't believe in the tooth fairy or Easter bunny. Scientifically, it's nearly impossible to prove a negative.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Nope. I never said I believed any such thing. Now, do you want to try again, or just admit you're completely full of manure?

      Atheism doesn't entail a set of beliefs. It is not a religion.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
    • Poltergeist

      If scientifcally impossible to prove a negative, why do Athiest keep bringing science up?

      January 15, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
    • ME II

      re·li·gion [ri-lij-uh n]
      noun
      1.
      a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
      2.
      a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
      3.
      the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
      4.
      the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
      5.
      the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

      (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion)

      A lack of belief in god(s) does not entail any "set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe", "specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices", "particular set of beliefs and practices", nor "ritual observance of faith".

      January 15, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • ME II

      @Poltergeist
      "If scientifcally impossible to prove a negative, why do Athiest keep bringing science up?"
      Usually because some theist makes a claim that contradicts known science, e.g. ID/Creationism, world-wide floods, same-se.x relationships being unnatural, etc.

      p.s. "nearly impossible"

      January 15, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • Sense0326

      Poltergeist, because that is why the null hypothesis (in this case that there is no god) is considered true until evidence to the contrary comes to light. Do a little reading.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
  18. Zaxximus

    idk how evolution ever came to be haha man was made from the dust of the ground. you seriously belive we evolved from primates. im sorry but you are so lost. just as lost as this woman who doesnt raise her children up in the Lord. behind every non-believer there is a reason why they have hardned thier hearts toward God and blame God for not winning the lotto or a brand new car or even the recent school shooting. i can get on a spiritual level but you wouldnt be able to comprehend. you took him out of your schools, our government and lives. he sitting in heaven saying dont point the finger at me, you wanted me out. Do not think as the world thinks. do not set your mind on things on earth but on things in heaven above. its not going to be too late once the abomination of desolation comes, youll have 7 years. ill be waitng, peace be with you. oh and just a little scripture, 2 chronciles 7:14

    January 15, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • Bigot

      Please prove your god exists. You cannot.

      Also research your religion and the book you call the bible. All written and edited by men, not god.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:29 am |
    • niknak

      And you seriously believe that some supreme power fashioned men out of clay, then made a woman for one of his rib bones?
      Even a child with no science background would laugh at that idea.

      But go ahead and keep believing in your stone age myth, yet all the while availing yourself on the progress science has made in making your life so much better and confortable.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • myweightinwords

      idk how evolution ever came to be

      Clearly.

      haha man was made from the dust of the ground. you seriously belive we evolved from primates. im sorry but you are so lost.

      So, you would rather be dirt than ape? I'm not sure how that makes me lost. It is fairly clear that you do not understand what evolution IS, so I doubt I'm going to listen to your opinion on the origin of man.

      just as lost as this woman who doesnt raise her children up in the Lord.

      She sounded pretty level headed in what I read. Seems to be raising good kids too. That's a lot more than many can say, Christian or not.

      behind every non-believer there is a reason why they have hardned thier hearts toward God and blame God for not winning the lotto or a brand new car or even the recent school shooting.

      How many atheists or agnostics do you actually know? I know a handful of people who left Christianity over some pretty awful things that happened to them (molestation, either by a minister/priest or by someone else in the church, failure of the church to help them out of an abusive situation, etc), but all of but one of them turned to other religions, they didn't become atheists. Most atheists I know studied the Bible in depth, often beginning as a believer, and the more they learned and studied, the less they believed. No trauma, real or imagined, required.

      And trivializing someone's lack of belief as you did is childish at best.

      i can get on a spiritual level but you wouldnt be able to comprehend. you took him out of your schools, our government and lives.

      No one took god out of anything. God is supposed to be in your heart, and if that is true, God is wherever you are.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • meifumado

      You dont know how evolution came to be?

      Go to school pick up a book

      January 15, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
  19. Robert Brown

    God help those poor kids, to be raised without knowing the living and true God. She is better off not lying to them. If she doesn’t believe she sure shouldn’t say anything about God. They need to hear the truth from a believer.

    January 15, 2013 at 11:20 am |
    • Bigot

      Talking to yourself again?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Can you show any reason why, Robert? Any evidence that children who are raised in religious households commit fewer crimes? Have fewer out-of-wedlock babies? Fewer abortions?

      Show evidence for your claim that those children "need" something that mother isn't providing for them.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Rick

      How is she lying to her kids?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      And there's your prime example, Robert, right below. You claim those children are being harmed. The Gopher was raised in a non-religious environment and you seem to kiss his ass every chance you get.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son,

      Are you loved?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Rick,
      She said she was lying to her kids.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:28 am |
    • Topher

      What those kids are missing is the same thing I was missing — the truth of the Gospel. If those kids grow up and die in their sins, they'll have a debt they cannot pay. But they also need to know their fine has been paid by Christ, and so if they repent and trust in Him, they will be forgiven and seen as righteous on Judgment Day and get to go to Heaven.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:29 am |
    • niknak

      The truth Robert Brownstreak?
      What truth would that be?
      You still have not provided ANY proof of you god, even after we have asked nicely for it.
      Your god is no different then santa claus, except santa claus is for children and the grow out of believing in it.
      You fundies keep right on believing in your god even after becomming adults and having zero proof that it(they) exist.

      It is cute when a child believes in santa claus, but it is really creepy when an adult does......

      January 15, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • sam stone

      Robert: And you know of the "living and true god" better than other people? How pompous can you be? Oh, that's right, you're a christian....the sky's the limit

      January 15, 2013 at 11:33 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      If people like you inhabit Heaven, Gopher, I'd rather go anywhere else.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:33 am |
    • sam stone

      Gopher: Judgement Day is a bad joke, and you are a one trick pony

      January 15, 2013 at 11:34 am |
    • meifumado

      You say these kids need to hear the truth from a believer.
      In order for something to be true it must be a fact.
      Believers do not know what the meaning of truth is.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      RB, just after you prove that your unproven myths are the truth, I'll arrange for you to speak with my children.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Niknak,
      I know you guys keep saying prove it and I keep saying you have to get your own proof. It is available I think some of you have may be afraid of what you will find if you give God a try.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      sam stone,
      No, I don’t know him better than other people. I don’t know much. I want to know more, but either way he has shown me enough.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Meifumado,

      God is a fact, you are living in denial of the truth.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls,
      I think we discussed proof the other day. You ready to get yours?

      January 15, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • Bob

      Robert, present the evidence for your "god". We're still waiting for any. Bible myths don't count. And if you are going to cite personal experiences, do present the details. We're still waiting for those too.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Toby

      "God is a fact"

      Really other than the bible what proof do you have it's a fact?

      January 15, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Robert

      Oh let me guess, believe then ask for evidence, then you'll have an experience that you can then attribute to your prior belief, completely ignoring the confirmatory bias. "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN"

      January 15, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Bob

      Robert, the facts, such as we have them, contradict the mythbook about your god many times.

      Perhaps you actually critically examine your beliefs for a change. It gets tiresome to hear you spouting the same old unsupported dogma here over and over again, although it can be fun to watch you squirm when you get called out for having no real arguments, nor any evidence, to support your claims with.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • sam stone

      "No, I don’t know him better than other people"

      Yet you feel the need to preach to others

      January 15, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • HA....

      @ Robert Brown

      Get em while they re young huh?..... why couldnt these kids hear about God as adults and make an informed decision?

      the churches really cringe when trying to convert an adult because they have a much better chance at recognising Faith as the load of crap that it is perhaps?

      Targeting children is just wrong....and they dont just try to jam the Dogma down their throats do they? sometimes it goes alot further than that...

      January 15, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      RB, you proved nothing – just provided a bunch of mumbo jumbo that can b boiled down to "you have to believe to believe."

      I am not claiming the existence of any supernatural being – you are so the burden of proof is entirely on you. And you, and every other believer, have failed. You are either delusional (mentally ill), lying or both.

      January 15, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
  20. Topher

    Good morning, everyone. I'd be happy to continue last night's discussions if anyone is interested.

    January 15, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Good morning Topher, keep up the good work.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • Topher

      Thanks, dude!

      January 15, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • sam stone

      How does an immortal being die?

      How do you reconcile an omnicient god with free will?

      Why do you feel that you know about god any more than any other person?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • niknak

      What discussion would that be?
      That you keep right on believing in a 2000 year old fairy tale, even after every single thing science has ever discovered proves that your god does not exist?

      I would be happy to discuss that with you AFTER you provide some proof of your fairy tale.
      We non believers have been waiting for that proof since like forever.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:32 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You and the rest of the thumpers spend your time here patting yourselves on the back and telling each other "atta boy." What is it that any of you are or do that would convince ANYONE to follow your example? You aren't doing much of a favor to your god at all.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      "How does an immortal being die?"

      I suppose you mean Jesus. Remember, He was fully God and fully man. Man dies. All of us will ... we're all part of the ultimate statistic — 10 out of 10 will die. But Jesus did something that no one but God could do ... defeat death and rise from the grave three days later.

      "How do you reconcile an omnicient god with free will?"

      I have no problem with this whatsoever and I'm not sure why you do. Omniscience basically means God has all knowledge. So He knows what will happen ... what choices you will make.

      "Why do you feel that you know about god any more than any other person?"

      I don't. But I have the Bible and hold it in the highest regard.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • meifumado

      Why is your monotheistic god the true god and the Hindu's gods are wrong?
      How do you know they are not right and your wrong?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:39 am |
    • Huh?

      "So He knows what will happen ... what choices you will make."

      Which means it creates human being that he know will end up in hell and he will torture them for all eternity. That is not a loving god, but a monster.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • sam stone

      "Omniscience basically means God has all knowledge. So He knows what will happen ... what choices you will make."
      If he knows what will happen, and cannot be wrong, there is only way to choose. Hence, no free choice.

      It is obvious you hold the bible in high esteem. What makes you think that those who wrote, translated or edited the bible had any more knowledge of god than the average schmoe walking the street today?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:43 am |
    • Smithsonian

      "Bible and hold it in the highest regard."

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:44 am |
    • sam stone

      "Why do you feel that you know about god any more than any other person?"

      "I don't."

      Yes you do. You preach as if you had some authority

      January 15, 2013 at 11:44 am |
    • Topher

      meifumado

      For many reasons! Like Christianity is the only "religion" that has an answer for the sin problem. And because I believe the Bible is true. You can believe it because it is a reliable collection of historical docu.ments written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (automatic bull detector) who claim to see supernatural events.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Topher

      Huh?

      "Which means it creates human being that he know will end up in hell and he will torture them for all eternity"

      Then those people should repent and trust Him, then they have nothing to worry about.

      "That is not a loving god, but a monster."

      Ridiculous. You ignore the fact that He left His throne, came to earth to die, taking the punishment you deserve so that you can be seen as righteous. He paid your ransom. There's nothing monsterous about this act. It is the ultimate kindness and love.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • Huh?

      "

      "That is not a loving god, but a monster."

      Ridiculous. You ignore the fact that He left His throne, came to earth to die, taking the punishment you deserve so that you can be seen as righteous. He paid your ransom. There's nothing monsterous about this act. It is the ultimate kindness and love."

      That's ridiculous. You made the claim your god knows what everyone will choose. It already knows people will not choose him before they are born, otherwise it's not all knowing now is it. Yet, knowing that it will torture it for choices it already knows they will make for eternity, is not love but a monster. True love would forgive and not torture something for eternity.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      "If he knows what will happen, and cannot be wrong, there is only way to choose. Hence, no free choice."

      No, it's still your choice. He just knows what choice you will make. For instance, I changed my mind eventually. He knew I'd come around.

      "It is obvious you hold the bible in high esteem. What makes you think that those who wrote, translated or edited the bible had any more knowledge of god than the average schmoe walking the street today?"

      Well, I answered the part about the authors a few comments ago. We can trust it. As far as translations go, we have VERY early copies in the original language, so we know what few changes there are (like some of the books got split into two books). And as far as our knowledge of God, we've got 66 books that reveal Him to us.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • sam stone

      "Which means it creates human being that he know will end up in hell and he will torture them for all eternity"

      "Then those people should repent and trust Him, then they have nothing to worry about."

      Yet he knows from the beginning that they will not accept Jesus as a savior(omniscient, remember?) and he creates them anyway.

      "You ignore the fact that He left His throne, came to earth to die, taking the punishment you deserve so that you can be seen as righteous. He paid your ransom. There's nothing monsterous about this act. It is the ultimate kindness and love."

      You have a real problem confusing opinion for fact

      January 15, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      "Yes you do. You preach as if you had some authority"

      My only authority is the Bible.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Topher

      Huh?

      He WILL forgive you if you repent and trust in Him. Otherwise, you'll get exactly what you deserve for breaking His laws. If He just lets lawbreakers go free, that doesn't make Him just.

      January 15, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • sam stone

      "No, it's still your choice. He just knows what choice you will make. For instance, I changed my mind eventually. He knew I'd come around."

      So, if he knew you'd come around, and he cannot be wrong, where is the free choice?

      January 15, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • Huh?

      "If He just lets lawbreakers go free, that doesn't make Him just."

      Explain how something is loving when it creates it so it can torture it for eternity and how is that just?

      January 15, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
    • NClaw441

      I am not convinced that an omniscient and omnipotent God must know everything that WILL occur, if He made man with truly free will (something an omnipotent God could do) then it is reasonable to assume that he would not know what those free decisions would be. That doesn't detract from omniscience, properly defined as knowing all that can be known.

      On the definition of omniscience, it means knowing all that can be known. One would not fail to be omniscient if he did not know something that could not be known. For example, I have 2 children. I have no others. An omniscient being cannot tell me the name of my third child, since I have only 2. That does not make the convert the omniscient being into something less than omniscient.

      So if God made us with true free will, He may (or may not) know what decisions we will make in the excericse of that free will. Of course, even if He does not know, He probably has a pretty good idead of what we will choose. Think of a baby crawling on the floor. Put something interesting down nearby and he will crawl towards it– of his own free will. That we know what he will do doesn't convert that to anything less than free will.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
    • sam stone

      "My only authority is the Bible."

      The authority applies only to those who accept it's authority

      January 15, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
    • sam stone

      "you'll get exactly what you deserve for breaking His laws"

      perhaps they are not the laws of god, rather they may be the laws of iron age sheep molesters

      January 15, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      So, if he knew you'd come around, and he cannot be wrong, where is the free choice?"

      I honestly don't see the problem. Whatever your choice, He knew that's the one you'd make. But He didn't choose it for you. You have a mind of your own and draw your own conclusion. Thus free choice. He just knows which you will choose.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • Topher

      Huh?

      "Explain how something is loving when it creates it so it can torture it for eternity and how is that just?"

      He created you so He could be glorified. If you choose to reject Him and His offer, He'll be glorified for being just. If you choose Him, He'll be glorified for saving a sinner such as you.

      Now, knowing you would sin (as we all do) and thus can do NOTHING to earn our way to Heaven, He sent the Son to take your punishment because He LOVES you. That's how loving He is.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • Topher

      sam stone

      "The authority applies only to those who accept it's authority"

      That's not quite true. IF the Bible is true (I know, that's a big 'if') it is true whether you accept it or not. So you're still subject to the laws and gifts it reveals.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Why does a perfect being need fallible beings to "glorify" him? Why create imperfect creatures to populate a world purely so they can worship some creature that will cast them into hell if they don't believe in him?

      January 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      What "sin problem"? Only those that believe in a nonexistent god and an insane book of fiction (yes, The Babble) have a sin problem – the sins of being gullible to the point of mental illness and/or being a conscious liar being among them.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • Huh?

      "He created you so He could be glorified. If you choose to reject Him and His offer, He'll be glorified for being just. "

      It already knew before the person was born that it wouldn't accept his offer and the it's going to torture that person for eternity. That is NOT the definition of just.

      I am laughing hysterical at your excuses for your God..

      January 15, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
    • Topher

      Huh?

      "It already knew before the person was born that it wouldn't accept his offer and the it's going to torture that person for eternity. That is NOT the definition of just."

      You will be tortured as punishment for breaking the laws. You deserve it. That makes it just. You earned it for itself. You can't blame the judge if YOU commit the crime. It doesn't work that way.

      "I am laughing hysterical at your excuses for your God."

      I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling you what the Bible says. And I tell you this with all sorrow ... you won't be so jovial come Judgment Day. Dude, please think about this stuff and turn to God. None of us are promised another day and we never know how soon we will face the Righteous Judge of the World.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • sam stone

      "He created you so He could be glorified"

      What a pr1ck

      January 15, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • meifumado

      @Topher

      You did not answer my question, All you did was lie and say the bible is a reliable historical work, Which any historian would laugh at!
      Why is your book true and theirs not? I'm sure Hindu's feel the same way you do.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • Topher

      meifumado

      First, I reject your claim I lied. Nothing I said was untrue. Second, no historian has shown one single verse to be historically inaccurate. Not one.

      Third, I told you why the Bible is true. So if the Bible is true (with its claims of Jesus being the ONLY way to God) then no others can be. Law of Non-Contradiction. If the Bible is true, the Hindus are WRONG.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • Mom of 4

      Topher,

      The Bible has some history of early Middle Eastern Hebrew tribes, including their fantasies and superst-itions. That's it.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • Topher

      Hi, Mom of 4

      "The Bible has some history of early Middle Eastern Hebrew tribes, including their fantasies and superst-itions. That's it."

      And that would certainly go toward the historical accuracy, wouldn't it. Now what about the eyewitnesses who wrote the books? The second eyewitnesses who would back up the claims? And then the supernatural events? The Bible is very trustworthy. Please consider these things before you just toss it aside.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Huh?

      "You will be tortured as punishment for breaking the laws. You deserve it. That makes it just. You earned it for itself. You can't blame the judge if YOU commit the crime. It doesn't work that way."

      You really think that torturing someone for eternity is just? Really? Then that further proves how evil your religion is. I would call it entrapment and that is not just..

      January 15, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "And that would certainly go toward the historical accuracy"

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Topher

      Huh?

      "You really think that torturing someone for eternity is just? Really? Then that further proves how evil your religion is. I would call it entrapment and that is not just."

      Yes, I do. And here's why:

      If I lie to a child; nothing will happen to me. If I lie to my wife; I'll be sleeping on the couch. If I lie to my boss; I'll be fired. If I lie to the president; I'll be thrown in prison or even killed for it. What's the difference? Same action, different punishments, right? So how much more so should I be punished if the action is against a perfect, holy, righteous and just God? You see, when you and I commit transgressions against each other, we might not consider it that big a deal. But God does. His standard is FAR above ours.

      Dude, I truely hope you won't be punished. It will be an awful thing. So you should know your fine has been paid and you don't have to go to "prison." All you have to do is repent and trust in the Savior.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      How can eternal torture and punishment ever be just?
      Even the worst crimes don't justify unending torture.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • Huh?

      "But God does. His standard is FAR above ours."

      Torturing someone for all eternity for not loving it is beneath our standards. To be "just" is about being fair, impartial, evenhanded, candid, or reasonable. The punishment doesn't fit the crime in your god's case. You really think that not loving something deserves a punishment of torture for eternity, that's sick. Hitler was evil but your god is far worse than even Hitler.

      January 15, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Topher

      Huh? and ME II

      I just explained how eternal torture is just. You've committed sins against perfection, which is the standard. You can complain about this if you want to, but the problem is there's a way out of that torture, but you choose to not accept it. And Huh?, you'll be punished because of your sins. You broke the law. It's not because you didn't love God. Though if you do love Him, he'll let you go because He's already paid your fine. Saying God is worse than Hitler is just ridiculous and blasphemous.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Topher

      Huh?

      "Torturing someone for all eternity for not loving it is beneath our standards."

      Completely agree. It is not our standard. But our standard doesn't matter. We often compare ourselves to the guy next door or to Hitler and conclude we're not as bad as those people. But the problem is we need to compare ourselves to God. His standard is perfection. It's WAY above ours. That's why we continue to fall short. God says "there are none who are good. No, not one." But He knew we couldn't measure up, so He provided a way to still be seen as righteous.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Huh?

      "You've committed sins against perfection, which is the standard. You can complain about this if you want to, but the problem is there's a way out of that torture, but you choose to not accept it. And Huh?, you'll be punished because of your sins."

      Dude your bible says you are all born sinners, so it doesn't matter. Your god is creating people so he can torture them for all eternity that's the bottom line. That's not just nor is it loving no matter how many excuses you come up with or try to spin it. We as human know that Hitler was an evil monster for doing that very same thing and so is your god.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • Huh?

      "And Huh?, you'll be punished because of your sins"

      A sin in your bible is not loving it. So my point still stands.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • William

      Topher, the point is that it is your "god" according to your bible, that threatens torture. As many others have said here, that is human rights abuse, and not something to be looked up to. Threatening torture is not perfection; it is a crime, a form of assault, to put it plainly and simply. I reject your horrid god fables. You should consider doing the same.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      Thank you for proving that you are better than your god, even though tried to justify your gods evil nature away.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Huh?

      "His standard is perfection. '

      LMAO! That's why it made mistakes, that's why it had to create a son to sacrifice, more mistakes. LOL! If you really think about it the god in your bible is pretty dumb.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Topher

      William

      According to human standards it might be abuse. But as I said, we need to understand God's standard. It is not a crime to punish someone for breaking the law. Would you tell a judge in a courtroom that you reject his sentence because it is a "crime" and you think it's too severe? How ridiculous.

      You should consider the Gospel. Yes, you and I deserve Hell, but God DIED taking the punishment you deserve. Why can't you see how loving and kind that is?

      January 15, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      Eternal punishment is not proportionate to a finite crime. Not is it equivalent to a finite crime.
      Even in the Bible's brutal 'eye for an eye' ethics, it is not just.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • Huh?

      "Would you tell a judge in a courtroom that you reject his sentence because it is a "crime" and you think it's too severe? How ridiculous."

      Actually we have, time and time again we have proven that not all laws are just or right. Especially laws that have been made by Christians.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • ME II

      Not -> Nor

      January 15, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Topher

      Huh?

      "That's why it made mistakes, that's why it had to create a son to sacrifice, more mistakes"

      No mistakes were made and no son was created to sacrifice. How sad it is that you are willing to reject something you clearly know nothing about.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Pete

      "How sad it is that you are willing to reject something you clearly know nothing about."

      Another lie from the xtians – 107!

      January 15, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • SImran

      Topher's argument:
      According to human standards, it is wrong. But according to God's standards???

      Now, of course, we cannot understand God's standards, since Topher thinks we don't deserve to, and you think there is no God. So, Topher wins! End of discussion.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Willam

      We seem to have some movement here from Topher. Let's verify that:

      So, Topher, do you admit that your "god", according to your bible, considers eternal torture to be fair and appropriate punishment for certain crimes committed by a human being during a short mortal life? Yes or no answer, please.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • JustForFun

      Created female counterparts for all the males of each species, yet forgot to make a female human until (at the least) a day later. Because Adam was sent around to every animal God had created and told to name them, and clearly noticed that his was the only race without a female, he may have been tempted towards acts of bestiality.

      Proceeding to create Eve out of Adam's rib, rather than out of thin air like his omnipotent self. First, the poor guy's missing a rib for the rest of his life. Second, Eve was then made out of Adam, so all love from then on out was reduced to narcissism, and all human sex and procreation reduced to masturbation.

      God couldn't find Adam in the Garden of Eden. He also didn't realise that Adam and Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit until they complained that they were naked. Evidently, this God doesn't know everything.

      He also had to ask Cain where Abel was. Omniscient, indeed.

      Letting things on Earth get so out of hand that he had to wipe the slate and start over.

      While he's wiping the slate, He simply refuses to wipe the slate totally clean. He has to save Noah and family for the next round of inbreeding, instead of re-creating humanity from scratch. This leads to the next round of wiping the slate known as the tribulation.

      Due to that aforementioned wiping of the slate, the unleashing of an ecological holocaust unlike anything the earth will ever see again.

      Going nuts because of the Tower of Babel, but doing nothing about this tower, topping at 2,684 ft.

      The inability to tell the first-born Hebrew kids from the first-born Egyptian kids, requesting a slap of blood on the doors as a friendly reminder.

      Fathered a son through an engaged virgin, (secretly, and without any prior notice to her fiancé) in open defiance to the laws he himself set back in Deuteronomy 22:25, and expected her to be honored. Note: she was a virgin. Result: the most painful childbirth in history, where the hymen was broken not by being pushed in, but by being pulled apart by the expansion of the uterus.

      Wrote the Old Testament and then had to send his Only Begotten Son down to revise it, leaving everyone thoroughly confused.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      Why is it that you constantly say you want discussion, but never engage in discussion?

      January 15, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • JA

      Topher

      Just want to say you do a great job at explaining things. Even things I have pondered over for years. Keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing more posts of yours.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @JA

      Really? I can sum up all of Tophers arguments into one sentence.
      "Don't question it under pain of eternal torture".
      Sorry, but that kind of crap doesn't fly to those who actually care whether what they believe is true.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • Ayn Rand

      JA, Then you have a pretty low threshold for what is convincing explanation.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • ME II

      @Just for Fun,
      "God couldn't find Adam in the Garden of Eden. He also didn't realise that Adam and Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit until they complained that they were naked. Evidently, this God doesn't know everything.

      He also had to ask Cain where Abel was. Omniscient, indeed."

      To be fair, the Bible states that God asked "Where is/are ...?", not that that God didn't know, just that he asked.

      January 15, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
    • Bob

      JA=Topher.

      January 15, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Topher

      hawaiiguest

      "Why is it that you constantly say you want discussion, but never engage in discussion?"

      Right. Cause I wasn't on here for almost 2.5 hours earlier discussing this stuff.

      January 15, 2013 at 2:52 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.