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January 17th, 2013
05:54 AM ET

Belief Blog's Morning Speed Read for Thursday, January 17, 2013

By Arielle Hawkins , CNN

Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.

From the Blog:

CNN: Survey: Few religious groups want Roe v. Wade overturned despite belief abortion morally wrong
Forty years after the Supreme Court protected abortion rights in Roe v. Wade, a new survey finds that white evangelicals remain the only major religious group that supports overturning the landmark ruling, even though most such groups find abortion morally wrong.

CNN: As U.S. senators visit, Egypt's president says remarks were not anti-Semitic
Egypt's president says comments he made more than two years ago that are being criticized as anti-Semitic were taken out of context, Egypt's official news agency reported Wednesday. President Mohamed Morsy said the statements, made in 2010, were about Israeli aggression against Palestinians in Gaza, not about the Jewish people, according to a statement published in Egypt News.

Tweet of the Day:

Photos of the Day:

Indian Sikh devotees carry the Guru Granth Sahib (Sikh Holy Book) on a palanquin during a procession from The Sri Akal Takhat at The Golden Temple in Amritsar on January 17, 2013. The procession took place on the eve of the 348th Birth Anniversary of tenth Sikh Guru Gobind Singh.

Foreign devotees participate in a session of yoga on the banks of the Sangam during the Kumbh Mela Festival in Allahabad on January 16, 2013. The Kumbh Mela in the Indian town of Allahabad will see up to 100 million worshippers gather over the next 55 days to take a ritual bath in the holy waters, believed to cleanse sins and bestow blessings

Pope Benedict XVI meets with US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta at the end of the General Audience at the Paul VI Hall on January 16, 2013 in Vatican City, Vatican. Panetta, a Catholic, will meet with defense ministers as part of his week long trip to Europe.

Enlightening Reads:

Washington Post: Leon Panetta to Pope Benedict: ‘Pray for me’
Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta took a break Wednesday from war planning and leading the world’s most powerful military to pay his respects to Pope Benedict XVI, a champion of peace. Panetta, an observant Catholic who proudly wears his Italian American heritage on his sleeve, beamed as he sat in a front row reserved for VIPs during the pope’s weekly general audience in a Vatican auditorium.

The Guardian: Horsemeat-in-burgers scandal prompts food hygiene fears
Religious leaders have expressed concern at DNA from horses and pigs being found in frozen beef burgers. Jewish leaders warned such incidents must not happen again, while the Muslim Council of Britain said it was worried by the whole issue of mis-description of food. John Benjamin, the chief executive of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said: "Observant Jews would only eat certain types of meat, and even then only if the animal had been killed in accordance with the laws of kosher food production.

New York Times: At a Climate Protest, Science and Religion
Science and religion went hand-in-hand on Tuesday as leaders from both worlds gathered in front of the White House to protest what they cast as government inaction on climate change.

Religion News Service: Vatican criticizes European religious freedom ruling
The Vatican on Wednesday (Jan. 16) criticized a ruling from the European Court of Human Rights that affirms employers’ right to limit the expression of religious beliefs in the workplace when it conflicts with equality laws. In an interview with Vatican Radio, Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, the Vatican’s foreign minister, said that on “morally controversial subjects, such as abortion or homosexuality,” people have the right to defend their freedom of conscience.

Quote of the Day:

Because of the protections guaranteed by our Constitution, each of us has the right to practice our faith openly and as we choose. As a free country, our story has been shaped by every language and enriched by every culture. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, Sikhs and non-believers. Our patchwork heritage is a strength we owe to our religious freedom.

Americans of every faith have molded the character of our Nation. They were pilgrims who sought refuge from persecution; pioneers who pursued brighter horizons; protesters who fought for abolition, women's suffrage, and civil rights. Each generation has seen people of different faiths join together to advance peace, justice, and dignity for all.

– An excerpt from the proclamation signed by the President today regarding Religious Freedom Day.

Join the conversation…

CNN iReport: Why I Raise My Children Without God
Deborah Mitchell, a mother of two teenagers in Texas, blogs about raising her children without religion. An avid reader of the Belief Blog, she said she shared this essay on CNN iReport because 'I just felt there is not a voice out there for women/moms like me. I think people misunderstand or are fearful of people who don’t believe in God.'

- A. Hawkins

Filed under: Uncategorized

soundoff (394 Responses)
  1. rehpoT

    Good afternoon, does anyone have any questions today about Satanism?

    January 17, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • JWT

      None whatsoever the satanic bible makes perfect sense.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      Free nuts all around today

      January 17, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
  2. It is Called

    It is called

    BU-LLSH-IT ! Dotors say otherwise so does a PEER REVIEWED paper pub. back in the 90's
    Robert Brown
    We are hard wired for hope, peace, and joy, through our desire for God.

    January 17, 2013 at 2:36 pm

    It is Called

    It is Called take god(s) religion out of it all you have left RB is ethic and politics = dirty money = g factor not god(s)

    another for you RB
    Wont' have peace till we face the facts of life

    @RB This is what is REAL !!!

    Brand new F-35 fighter plane cost over 1 billion dollars for 1.
    What was that made for?
    God9s) did not make it.
    But it will take 1,000's of lives not good.
    No god(s) required

    Or RB who made the F-35 ?????

    January 17, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      It is Called,
      I will agree with you on this much, the root of evil.

      Peace.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
    • It is Called

      Thanks RB

      But fact is humans made the F-35 fighter plane
      Peace

      January 17, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
  3. Live4Him

    @Joey : I used to the the presupposition that the bible was reality, then I really gave it a close read.

    What empirical evidence did you find to change your mind?

    January 17, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      This is just a guess. But it was probably along the lines of lack of empirical evidence to support the bible. And the lack of evidence within the bible to support the god of that bible being a just, good, or loving being.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Gir

      NOW you religionists want to talk empirical evidence? LMAO.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • Nuts Free

      Free buts all around

      January 17, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      All thumbs it is nuts not buts all around OK

      January 17, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
    • The Colosseum is full

      Oh how bout Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the (((circle of the earth))), and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
      written 700 year before Jesus...or the martyrs of Jesus written before them in Revelation 6:9-11...
      and then there's me and every one who believes and have evidence of Jesus resurrection by the very fact that he lives in me..

      January 17, 2013 at 3:12 pm |
    • Basically

      There is no empirical evidence anywhere in the univesre, from the tiniest subatomic particle to the expanses of the cosmos, that even hint at the existence of any deity. Everything ever studied shows natural processes, always, without exception. Never ever has anything supernatural ever been found.

      The evidence against god is that there is no evidence for god. All evidence supports the position that it is all just a natural system doing its thing, which no supernatural intervention.

      No empirical evidence supports religion. All empirical evidence supports atheism.

      The bible fails as evidence as so much in it is obviously wrong. Even their god Jesus was clearly wrong twice, which discredits him as any possible god.

      No evidence is very very strong evidence that something doesn't exist.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      hawaiiguest,

      The empire of global unification needs religious factions of which societal controls may be measured for economic considerations befitting beneficial welfares which dares to be empirically regulated and reined as orderly as is made possible toward unifying the global needs with little un-pleasantries as is made possible.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
    • No

      "the very fact that he lives in me"

      That's just your imagination. People of all religions make that claim, so all gods are true?

      That's just you fooling yourself.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:20 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      Talking to myself himself.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • psych ward staff

      Colosseum: "have evidence of Jesus resurrection by the very fact that he lives in me.."

      some of the patients in the ward have the same kind of trouble understanding what the word "fact" means..lol

      Of course there are theists and atheists who see the Isaiah interpretation as a sham.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Joey

      That is it, I found exactly zero empirical evidence to support the bible. None. So I don't believe it anymore.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:22 pm |
    • Joey

      The Earth is not a circle, it is a sphere.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
    • Larry

      Topher, you do realize that the much lower crime rates of secular Europe totally disproves your biblical quote of the evil of atheists. As does the severe underrepresentation of atheists in the prison populace. Study after study finds atheists to commit less of the crimes you listed than Christians. If your quote was true, it would be radically the opposite.

      Your quote is proven to be false. Are you really so trapped in your circular logic that you cannot accept any outside evidence which contradicts your theology?

      January 17, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
    • ???????

      They are talking to themselves.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @lionly

      More irrelevant idiocy from you?

      January 17, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      hawaiiguest,

      Sorry hawaiiguest, I thought you of all people would grasp my word usage meanings. Alas I am as loner in a world laced with non-intellectuals which tarry about and banters semi-presumptive issues and they dare not raise up their wordage understandings upwards and beyond protrusion commonalities of the same old sameness.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • Gir

      "and then there's me and every one who believes and have evidence of Jesus resurrection by the very fact that he lives in me"

      Why aren't these people being locked up in asylums? Oh, that's right. There's enough people who share this delusion out there for it to be normal. This country is in for a tough future if these religionists don't die out soon.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @lionly

      In other words, you still want to feel smart. Yup, same useless lionly.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
    • Gir

      @ lionlylamb Copying-and-pasting ad verbum from thesaurus.com without bothering to consider context or meaning does not make you an intellectual. It just makes you the deluded, s-e-x-ually deviant faux-pedant that you are.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Gir,

      Jumping on the bandwagon are we now? Someone has to drive though,,, That'd be me of course! I'm quite good at driving bandwagons! I've been doing it for 30 some odd years! The drugs I've been ascribed keeps me quite alert and ever wary of 'pot' holes!

      January 17, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      hawaiiguest,

      I just ooze of intellectual integrities! Your willingness to write nuances of kindness is as a cherished reservoir filled to its brim! Salutations to one and for all!

      January 17, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
    • midwest rail

      You ooze many things, but intellectual integrity is not on the list.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
  4. It is Called

    It is Called take god(s) religion out of it all you have left RB is ethic and politics = dirty money = g factor not god(s)

    another for you RB
    Wont' have peace till we face the facts of life

    @RB This is what is REAL !!!

    Brand new F-35 fighter plane cost over 1 billion dollars for 1.
    What was that made for?
    God9s) did not make it.
    But it will take 1,000's of lives not good.

    January 17, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • Science

      Video below

      PBS NOVA Decoding Neanderthals

      Published on Jan 15, 2013
      Over 60,000 years ago, the first modern humans—people physically identical to us today—left their African homeland and entered Europe, then a bleak and inhospitable continent in the grip of the Ice Age. But when they arrived, they were not alone: the stocky, powerfully built Neanderthals had already been living there for hundred of thousands of years. So what happened when the first modern humans encountered the Neanderthals? Did we make love or war? That question has tantalized generations of scholars and seized the popular imagination. Then, in 2010, a team led by geneticist Svante Paabo announced stunning news. Not only had they reconstructed much of the Neanderthal genome—an extraordinary technical feat that would have seemed impossible only a decade ago—but their analysis showed that "we" modern humans had interbred with Neanderthals, leaving a small but consistent signature of Neanderthal genes behind in everyone outside Africa today. In "Decoding Neanderthals," NOVA explores the implications of this exciting discovery. In the traditional view, Neanderthals differed from "us" in behavior and capabilities as well as anatomy. But were they really mentally inferior, as inexpressive and clumsy as the cartoon caveman they inspired? NOVA explores a range of intriguing new evidence for Neanderthal self-expression and language, all pointing to the fact that we may have seriously underestimated our mysterious, long-vanished human cousins.
      Category
      Education

      January 17, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • It is called

      BU-LLSH-IT ! Dotors say otherwise so does a PEER REVIEWED paper pub. back in the 90's
      Robert Brown

      It is Called,
      We are hard wired for hope, peace, and joy, through our desire for God.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • It is Called

      For RB peer reviewed

      Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says – CNN ...
      religion.blogs.cnn.com/.../heaven-is-a-fairy-story-scientist-stephen-ha...
      May 17, 2011 – By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen ..
      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkEIpBlqazk&w=640&h=390]
      .

      January 17, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
  5. It is Called

    @RB
    Wont' have peace till we face the facts of life!!!

    @RB This is what is REAL !!!

    Brand new F-35 fighter plane cost over 1 billion dollars for 1.
    What was that made for?
    God9s) did not make it.
    But it will take 1,000's of lives not good.
    Remove religion no war all you have left is ethics and politics = dirty money = G factor

    January 17, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • It is Called

      To RB
      Heaven is 'a fairy story,' scientist Stephen Hawking says – CNN ...
      religion.blogs.cnn.com/.../heaven-is-a-fairy-story-scientist-stephen-ha...
      May 17, 2011 – By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor The concept of heaven or any kind of afterlife is a "fairy story," famed British scientist Stephen ...

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkEIpBlqazk&w=640&h=390]

      January 17, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
    • The Colosseum is full

      the gospel of Christ is true... I am a living witness of Jesus' resurrection..

      January 17, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
    • Todd

      "I am a living witness of Jesus' resurrection.."

      The resurrection is a myth.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
  6. truth be told

    CNN is currently running a story on liars and cheats. Those qualities define a perfect atheist.

    January 17, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Really??

      DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

      January 17, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Love those Hypocritical Christians!

      Cool! In sixteen short words, "truth be told" violated the Ninth Commandment (do not bear false witness), "do unto others", "cast the first stone," "turn the other cheek," and a whole bunch of other Biblical rules.

      And he/she/it embraced four of the Seven Deadly Sins: wrath, envy, pride, and sloth.

      Well done!

      January 17, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • niknak

      Hey, it's truth NOT be told, back to do some atheist hating.

      According to you fundies, only god can judge.
      And if I am not mistaken, it is a huge sin to do your own judging.
      Therefore, you have sinned, and your god is not going to be happy with you.

      Enjoy that fiery pit. Better bring some sun screen cause it is gonna be a scorcher where you are going.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • Gir

      The only way to make sense of tbt's comments is to have 'Trololo' playing in the background while reading them.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "truth be told", but your repeated assertions regarding atheism are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 17, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • niknak

      Gir,
      Trololo, band or song name?

      January 17, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      truth be told,

      Only the less aged will be mockers and the most aged will know of wisdom's leveraging. To show others shortcomings allows the fallen to trumpet in the vainness sakes! These ones of vanities will ever be Life's mockeries. Theirs are of silt and lowlife measure-abilities. They are as nothing of noteworthiness issues. Let them be scoffers and leave them to their own devices of selfishness issues.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • sam

      @Gir – LOL! Now it's stuck in my head.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • The Colosseum is full

      it can so be said of many who profess to believe in Christ... as in many false prophets which Jesus said would come...when you have to attack and accuse your enemies you are mis representing Christianity.. which creates more anti- Christs

      January 17, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
  7. lionlylamb

    Harken all that live upon unruly wordage usages meant to scorn and upset the godly whose tempers dare show kindness and are of merciful measures upon those meaning sought ungodliness virtues upon the weaker and bitter! I am not so merciful.

    You lusters after fleshly desires are of Life's worst woes! You who are Harlots need seek repentance from your Life work before it becomes too late and hell can no longer be averted from your travailed path! Also you tramps who are raising and have adolescent ones, I beseech that you do not teach your tendered ones the arts of lovemaking being as a righteous Act outside of wedded bliss for loving moments are for procreation in Life marriages and should ever be shunned by the still unwedded!

    If only you harlots and tramps could turn from lusts of the flesh, then perchance manhood may find and seek a measured change and become ever the more chivalrous natured in the ways of seeking a righteous mate! Alas, it may be too late for societies wholesomeness, yet it may be still found righteous for the adolescent few who dare to know that the lovemaking truths are for marriage and not for courting affirmations sake!

    As for you men who find it advantageous to take advantages of a woman's weakness I have this to say. Why do you being a man tend to willfully subvert a young woman's seediness just for a few moments of passion felt bliss? The true treasures of passionate blissfulness lays not in the waiting of artless moments before being betrothed but lays especially afterwards when married passions can be felt freely and without fearing!

    To you yet young women who have been deflowered and are found having child, I ask that you struggle in righteously teaching said child your woefulness ways for their being born and make them aware of the bitterness that being deflowered at such young an age really means to one's whole Life! Is being deflowered really worth a young woman's wanting to please their potential mate's husbandry desires? Life is so very precious and being deflowered outside of wedlock is passionless lusting!

    January 17, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • psych ward staff

      Uh oh, the admitted child molester has thrown up his word salad again. Clean-up on page 1, pronto!

      January 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Gir

      Extend our greetings to the people in the 10th Century when you go back.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Oh dear

      A guy who abused his siblings, trainwrecked his life and has but a tiny amount of sobriety thinks he is superior in understanding and writing skills.

      Just amazing. Christians are just amazing.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      My repentance from a sinful past is thru proprietary wordage usages meant to soundly avert those willing to know their potential wrongfulness way. My coming clean in public settings makes the generalist public into being mockers of one's truthfulness! My shamefulness seems not enough for the masses of mockers who knows no better and adds insult to injuries long ago made! We are all sinners and lest you forget your sinfulness, I will remind you of mine!

      January 17, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
    • niknak

      Hey, another shout out to another of the boards regular believers, cowardlylion!
      I did not even bother reading your latest rant, still trying to digest your anti woman rant from last night.
      Only so much babble I can take in a 24 hour period.
      No offense Clion, I just don't have the time right now to wade thru your wondering cosmology pontifications.
      I am sure they make sense to you, and they are certainly keeping your shrink happy and employed.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
    • LyinglyLame

      I thoroughly messed up my life, and realized it. Therefore I am holier than thou.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Societal issues of bitterness leveraged against one's self is exactly how social bitterness enraptures the psyche toward imbalances being enamored. Societies sheltering ways keep fashionable the rants and ravings of imbecilic indecencies. Therefore tarry naught upon selfish rants and raves against you and keep one's mind ever on your Life's issues that yield beneficiary needs. Love one's Life mate and seek not to motivations of ensnarement issues made against you or you Life mate. Even in my repented welfares I am scorned by raves and rants of forlorn imbeciles who care only toward idiocies of unleavened natures of which they nurture insidiously. To hell or not to hell for that is all's nurturing natures!

      January 17, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • psych ward staff

      He actually enjoys this. But it's the only exercise the poor beast gets.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • .

      LL is the belief blog pseudo intellect, just laugh and move on, it's not worth reading.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
    • Which God?

      Hey Chucky Milton, alias lionlylamb. Taking your meds? How is the tree you live under? Or was it a rock? Which one did you say it was? I'll remember the town you live in, just give it some time. Folks should know that you truly are a medicated person and quite nuts as well. Still proclaiming that you are the Supreme Wiccan High Priest of All, and the purveyor of knowlege form the sky-fairy you talk to?

      January 17, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
    • Todd

      What's funny is this idiot wouldn't dare talk like this in public places so it comes here to spew their puke.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
  8. SImran

    @ Robert Brown
    Why did god need a different set of rules for the children of Israel and put forth a revised version for us?

    January 17, 2013 at 11:48 am |
    • It is Called

      another for you RB
      Wont' have peace till we face the facts of life

      @RB This is what is REAL !!!

      Brand new F-35 fighter plane cost over 1 billion dollars for 1.
      What was that made for?
      God9s) did not make it.
      But it will take 1,000's of lives not good.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
    • Topher

      Simran

      Do you understand WHY the Jews are God's chosen people?

      January 17, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • SImran

      @ Topher,
      No I can't. Why were they?

      January 17, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
    • SImran

      I found this on the net

      "The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors." (Deuteronomy 7:7-8)

      So, god didnot love his other people? Or didnot love them enough? Why not chose the people of the East? Or Africa maybe?

      January 17, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • Joey

      Topher, that is an easy one. They are God's chosen people because they wrote the story.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • SImran

      Ok, if you are trying to bring in the old vs new covenant argument, may I ask why did the people require the civil laws or ceremonial laws in the first place? And if they did, why don't we require them now???

      Is it possible that as morality evolved over time, people realized how ghastly those laws were and decided to let go of them? Rather than a know-all god calling the shots?

      January 17, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Simran: RE: Why the Jews are God's chosen people

      Salvation History:

      http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/MOSTCAT.htm

      It's 83 pages.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • Ramalamadingdong

      God has done nothing but shit on his chosen people. The ones who don't follow him have generally done much better.

      Almost like god doesn't exist.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • SImran

      Oh come on Chick, who will read through 80+ pages of cra.p to understand meaningless ramblings of some middle eastern men?
      I am sure Topher can give us the bullets.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • Free nuts

      Nuts all around today.
      No peace with all the nuts.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ SImran: "who will read through 80+ pages of cra.p"

      I will. I want to know.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Topher

      Simran

      The Jews were God's chosen people because that's through whom the Messiah would come.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:57 pm |
    • SImran

      @ Chick,
      Well then. go ahead. Do us the honors. And while your are at it, give us the summary too.
      I will be waiting...

      January 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • SImran

      Topher,

      No, that doesnot answer the question. Why were THEY CHOSEN? God could have chosen Africans or Indians or Chinese or Red Indians and he could have sent the messiah to these places very well. Why the Jews? Joey pretty much answered it very correctly above – bcoz the Jews were the ones who wrote the story!

      January 17, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Dancing With The Steers

      Why did god's first set of rule suck so badly? I cannot ever imagine a deity thinking those were moral. They look EXACTLY like the kind of laws a backwards ignorant superstitious Middle Eastern tribe would come up with.

      Hint hint hint.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • Topher

      The problem with that is that the authors weren't all Jews. And remember the covenants God made with Abraham and David.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • SImran

      You mean the old covenant or the new one?
      And what about the covenant of Abraham and David?

      All I can see is one religion evolving into another. Pretty much what happened in the East – Hinduism evolved into multiple fractions and then, when some people didnot see the existing teachings as appealing to their morality, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism began.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • SImran

      "To make of Abraham a great nation and to bless those who bless him and curse those who curse him and all peoples on earth would be blessed through Abraham"

      Indicates that Abraham wanted to intimidate people into blindly accepting his superiority or else they will be cursed!

      To give Abraham's descendants all the land from the river (or wadi) of Egypt to the Euphrates.[Gen 15:18–21] Later, this land came to be referred to as the Promised Land or the Land of Israel, however the land specified by the Abrahamic covenant also includes the modern nations of Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, UAE, and several other nations in the Middle East.

      No wonder there is so much bloodshed in the promised land! I should now blame god – either he is wilfully allowing his promised land to be a scene of hatred and bloodshed or he is impo.tent!

      "To make Abraham the father of many nations and of many descendants and give "the whole land of Canaan" to his descendants." – Again first argument.

      "Circu'mcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants and is known as the brit milah"
      Poor innocent children!

      January 17, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Get Real

      Topher,

      There is no verified evidence that any god, not even one named YHWH, ever spoke to any Abraham or David or ANYONE else... EVER.

      Do you know what ethnocentric chauvinism is? "We da' BEST!"

      January 17, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • SImran

      And it keeps on getting more confusing!!!

      Jews have traditionally seen Jesus as one of a number of false messiahs who have appeared throughout history. Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.

      Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God. Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, a Messianic Age of peace and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth, and since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards, except for the return of many Jews to their homeland in Israel), he is not a candidate for messiah.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • SImran

      Jesus is rejected by many Jewish people as a failed Jewish Messiah claimant. Belief in the divinity of any human being is incompatible with Judaism:
      "The point is this: that the whole Christology of the Church – the whole complex of doctrines about the Son of God who died on the Cross to save humanity from sin and death – is incompatible with Judaism, and indeed in discontinuity with the Hebraism that preceded it."[10]
      "Aside from its belief in Jesus as the Messiah, Christianity has altered many of the most fundamental concepts of Judaism." (Kaplan, Aryeh)[11]
      "...the doctrine of Christ was and will remain alien to Jewish religious thought."[12]
      "For two thousand years, Jews rejected the claim that Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies of the Hebrew Bible, as well as the dogmatic claims about him made by the church fathers – that he was born of a virgin, the son of God, part of a divine Trinity, and was resurrected after his death. ... For two thousand years, a central wish of Christianity was to be the object of desire by Jews, whose conversion would demonstrate their acceptance that Jesus has fulfilled their own biblical prophecies."[13]
      "No Jew accepts Jesus as the Messiah. When someone makes that faith commitment, they become Christian. It is not possible for someone to be both Christian and Jewish."

      January 17, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • SImran

      Yet another article for you Topher:

      Stated simply, the Jewish view of Jesus of Nazareth is that he was an ordinary Jewish man and preacher living during the Roman occupation of the Holy Land in the first century C.E. The Romans executed him – and also executed many other nationalistic and religious Jews – for speaking out against Roman authority and abuses.

      Was Jesus the Messiah According to Jewish Beliefs?

      After the death of Jesus, his followers – at the time a small sect of former Jews known as the Nazarenes – claimed he was the Messiah prophesied in Jewish texts and that he would soon return to fulfill the acts required of the Messiah. The majority of contemporary Jews rejected this belief and Judaism as a whole continues to do so today. Eventually, Jesus became the focal point of a small Jewish religious movement that would evolve into the Christian faith.

      Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine, the Son of God, or the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scriptures. He is seen as a "false messiah," meaning someone who claimed (or whose followers claimed for him) the mantle of the Messiah but who ultimately did not meet the requirements laid out in Jewish beliefs. According to Jewish scripture and belief, the true Messiah (pronounced "moshiach" in Hebrew) must meet the following requirements. He must:

      Be an observant Jewish man descended from the house of King David
      Be an ordinary human being (as opposed to the Son of God)
      Bring peace to the world
      Gather all Jews back into Israel
      Rebuild the ancient Temple in Jerusalem
      Unite humanity in the worship of the Jewish God and Torah observance
      Because Jesus did not meet these requirements, from the Jewish perspective he was not the Messiah.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ SImran: Wow, I'm glad there's no due date!

      January 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ SImran: Actually, Jews for Jesus does. Their mission statement is "We exist to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide."

      http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about

      January 17, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ SImran: Well, for just a quick answer there's this:

      The following section contains information from the Jewish Encyclopedia, originally published between 1901-1906, which is in the public domain.

      According to the Rabbis, "Israel is of all nations the most willful or headstrong one, and the Torah was to give it the right scope and power of resistance, or else the world could not have withstood its fierceness."

      "The Lord offered the Law to all nations; but all refused to accept it except Israel."

      January 17, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • SImran

      @ Chick
      Dont worry, take your time. But if I were you, I wouldn't bother.

      Hmmh... "Jews for Jesus" – You mean the Christian Evangelical cult that basically focu..sses on converting Jews to Christianity! Founded by Martin Rosen. He was on the Jewish side and then had a fall out and started this cu.lt in 1973. Didn't he say that 6 million Jews died in holocaust bcoz they didn't believe in Jesus!

      He aggre.ssively targeted Jews for conversion and is responsible for the and the destruction of thousands of Jewish families. His most deceptive tactic promoted the notion that a Jew can be Jewish and Christian at the same time. However, he simultaneously condemned Judaism as a “false religion” and once said, “The fact is we are not practicing any form of Judaism. We are practicing Christianity.” This didn’t stop him from encouraging the use of rab.binic Jewish practices, like lighting Shabbat candles, or wearing a yar.mu.lke (skullcap) , in an attempt to masquerade Christianity in the guise of authentic Judaism.

      Sadly, as a direct result of Rosen’s pioneering efforts, today there are over 1,000 mis.sionary groups targeting Jews for conversion worldwide. With an annual budget exceeding $275 million, these groups have succeeded in converting hundreds-of-thousands of Jews in recent decades. A recent National Jewish Population Study estimated that more than 600,000 American Jews have converted to, or are affiliated with, a religion other than Judaism, the most dominant faith being Christianity.

      Both Jewish and mainline Christian clergy condemned Rosen’s aggressive and controversial proselytizing methods. In 1990 Reverend David Selzer wrote, “Jews for Jesus is another attempt to deny Jewish ident.ity to Jews… as a Christian I oppose the group.”

      Nope, doesn't count. Have something better?

      January 17, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
    • SImran

      "The Lord offered the Law to all nations; but all refused to accept it except Israel."

      Wow, the Lord did go from door to door with his MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) then... In each country, exactly who did he go to? In the east, he must have gone to the Maharishis I guess, but then Satan must have arrived there before him, bcoz the Rishis told him – look I already have my Vedas now. U can take your MOU some place else!

      I am really having a wonderful time. Go on... Give me some more!

      January 17, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
    • SImran

      And I think I will be waiting for Topher to shed some divine light on this thread for eternity!

      January 17, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ SImran: RE: Jews for Jesus
      I don't know the background on this. I remember seeing advertisements the put in magazines as far back as the '70s but since I'm not Jewish, I never really paid attention to them past the point of noticing they existed.

      RE: "door to door with his MOU (Memorandum of Understanding)"
      Don't be a provocateur. Put on your thinking cap. As a person from the time period, with only the tools and information available as historians, anthropologists and archeologists could explain, how would you suppose one would be able to receive this information. If I had to make a guess, it would be some sort of vision by a shaman or mystic who would then bring it to the attention of his/her tribe or village. Not only did people live like that back then, there are still indigenous people who have similar spiritual experiences today – not that Western culture takes them seriously. Still, who is to say that we westerners aren't the ones missing out by closing off our minds to experiences that don't fit into a preconceived box.

      On that note, I bid you a good night. I've got to get some rest.

      January 17, 2013 at 8:36 pm |
  9. Topher

    Good morning, everyone. Let's continue the conversation from the other day ...

    January 17, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • It is Called

      another for you RB
      Wont' have peace till we face the facts of life
      It is Called

      @RB This is what is REAL !!!

      Brand new F-35 fighter plane cost over 1 billion dollars for 1.
      What was that made for?
      God9s) did not make it.
      But it will take 1,000's of lives not good.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • Wondering

      Topher, you come here day after day after day, and you consistently get your but kicked. Badly.

      I have yet to see you come even close to tying, much less winning.

      So my question is, why do you keep losing and coming back for more when all you are doing is making people certain that what you are saying is wrong?

      January 17, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
    • Topher

      Wondering

      "Topher, you come here day after day after day, and you consistently get your but kicked. Badly."

      Sometimes.

      "I have yet to see you come even close to tying, much less winning. "

      That's certainly subjective. I think I do a pretty good job — for the most part. My job isn't to win an argument. My job is to proclaim the truth and make sure people understand the Gospel. Whether you or anyone else choose to accept that isn't up to me.

      "So my question is, why do you keep losing and coming back for more when all you are doing is making people certain that what you are saying is wrong?"

      Why am I wrong? Because you don't think I'm good at arguing? That doesn't make sense. Something is either true or it isn't. MOST atheists have no idea what they are rejecting and I'm just trying to help them understand as someone who used to be one of them.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      How can you continue a conversation when you don't engage in conversation?

      January 17, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Dancing With The Steers

      Oh Topher, you are lying again. You have clearly stated that you were not really an atheist, that you knew god existed all along, and here you are again claiming you were an atheist. You pull that one a lot.

      How do you believe that god is the source of morality when his followers lie through their teeth here?

      January 17, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Topher

      Call it lying if you want. I'd call it semantics. It's true I was never an atheist by its strictest definition. But I thought I was at the time. I hated God. I thought it all foolishness. I debated Christians and called them idiots. I fought against Him at every turn. On the surface and in my mind I was an atheist. But my conscience told me otherwise. I just ignored that for years. You have to understand, my position is that everyone's conscience reveals there's a god. That goes for you, too. So in a way, I don't believe there's really any atheists. I'm sure I'll take a beating for that, but scripture backs me up.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • Science

      PBS NOVA Decoding Neanderthals

      Published on Jan 15, 2013
      Over 60,000 years ago, the first modern humans—people physically identical to us today—left their African homeland and entered Europe, then a bleak and inhospitable continent in the grip of the Ice Age. But when they arrived, they were not alone: the stocky, powerfully built Neanderthals had already been living there for hundred of thousands of years. So what happened when the first modern humans encountered the Neanderthals? Did we make love or war? That question has tantalized generations of scholars and seized the popular imagination. Then, in 2010, a team led by geneticist Svante Paabo announced stunning news. Not only had they reconstructed much of the Neanderthal genome—an extraordinary technical feat that would have seemed impossible only a decade ago—but their analysis showed that "we" modern humans had interbred with Neanderthals, leaving a small but consistent signature of Neanderthal genes behind in everyone outside Africa today. In "Decoding Neanderthals," NOVA explores the implications of this exciting discovery. In the traditional view, Neanderthals differed from "us" in behavior and capabilities as well as anatomy. But were they really mentally inferior, as inexpressive and clumsy as the cartoon caveman they inspired? NOVA explores a range of intriguing new evidence for Neanderthal self-expression and language, all pointing to the fact that we may have seriously underestimated our mysterious, long-vanished human cousins.
      Category
      Education
      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R00ZT_1JU1g&w=640&h=390]

      January 17, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Dancing With The Steers

      Semantics. Wow, really? You are lying to yourself now.

      "as someone who used to be one of them"
      "It's true I was never an atheist"

      We have clearly told you again and again that "your position" on atheism is totally false and a lying misrepresentation of what we actually believe.

      Lies, misrepresentations, playing spin doctor with the facts . . . you are very weaselly.

      How about you stop lying and slandering and pretending your lies are just semantics?

      Your undestanding of clearly does not make you honest, which is an excellent reason to reject the Christianity. You are counterproductive.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      By your own admission, you were never an atheist.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Jeffrey Hansen

      "Scripture backs you up"? What perfect circular reasoning you have. The reality that atheists are totally different than scripture says cannot invade your circle. You have sealed yourself in a bubble in which no evidence can enter.

      How impressive.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Wow Topher, you remind me of a guy at my college who didn't believe people had movies in their head at night because he never remembered having a dream himself. Your experience is not everyones. The number of people who have told me I couldn't really possibly not believe in free will because a human "can't funtion that way" is more than I could count. Yet here I am. Am I a liar? I remember not believing in lucid dreaming when I was young...so I set to work and tried it. Hey, people weren't lying after all. Not everyone shares your experience...I'm sorry if you interperet the bible to say otherwise.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Topher

      From Romans Chapter 1 ...

      19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

      24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

      26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

      28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Joey

      Quotes from the bible are meaningless and prove absolutely nothing about anything.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • Jeffrey Hansen

      You totally failed to understand my comments.

      Uour Bible's slander of atheists, it's obviously wrong assertions, are yet another reason to reject religion. Lies and slander.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Topher", but "God" is an element of mythology, therefore your assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL".

      January 17, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
    • Johnny Blammo

      Topher is one of our very best recruiters for atheism.

      Well done, Topher!

      January 17, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • JWT

      Haters of god what a strange term since one cannot hate that which does not exist.

      And yes topher there really are atheists.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
    • Topher

      Jeffrey

      Totally possible I misunderstood. And if so, I'm sorry. Please explain to me how scripture doesn't have atheists pegged.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • mark

      Who cares what the fvck the scripture says when the god of abraham has no credibility

      January 17, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Strange, ever since Topher got stomped on

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/15/ireport-why-i-raise-my-children-without-god/comment-page-4/#comment-2104358

      He completely ignores me.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Joey

      That is also an easy one Topher, as an atheist I am not full of envy, murder, malice, spite, deceit. I don't gossip, slander, or hate god. I am not boastful, and always obeyed my parents. I am not foolish, heartless, or ruthless. The only thing the bible got right is that I am faithless, and that is a good thing.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
    • Ayn Rand

      The one where you c&p from the bible to "answer" questions about god? Pointless

      January 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • Joey

      That is also an easy one Topher, as an atheist I am not full of envy, murder, malice, spite, or deceit. I don't gossip, slander, or hate god. I am not boastful, and always obeyed my parents. I am not foolish, heartless, or ruthless. The only thing the bible got right is that I am faithless, and that is a good thing.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • Topher

      Ayn Rand

      "The one where you c&p from the bible to "answer" questions about god? Pointless"

      That's pretty subjective, too. I took grief all weekend because I don't back up my claims with actual verses enough. I wish you guys would get on the same page.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • It is Called

      @Joey
      Well said.
      Thank you.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
    • Polonius

      Joey, this is the part where Topher says that even though you are "not full of envy, murder, malice, spite, or deceit. I don't gossip, slander, or hate god. I am not boastful, and always obeyed my parents. I am not foolish, heartless, or ruthless", the Bible says you are, and therefore your actual behavior is not what you actual do.

      It makes sense to Topher.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
    • Wondering

      It's a good time to repeat myself:

      Topher, you come here day after day after day, and you consistently get your but kicked. Badly.

      I have yet to see you come even close to tying, much less winning.

      So my question is, why do you keep losing and coming back for more when all you are doing is making people certain that what you are saying is wrong?

      January 17, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • Topher

      Wondering

      See answers above ...

      January 17, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
    • Thusly it is

      "I took grief all weekend because I don't back up my claims with actual verses enough. "

      That was when the subject was your assertions, which are not to be found in the Bible. When the subject is Christian theology itself, then yes, you do need to provide support for your statements in biblical quotes. HOWEVER, when the topic include reality, then using only the bible to support your arguments discredits you, as you did here, because you are using the bible to make ridiculous slanders against atheists and sealing your eyes and ears against the massive evidence to the contrary.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • Jerry Lavinson

      Why did you run away from Joey's comments, Topher. His point is very relevant, and it totally rebuts your Bible. Atheists are not at all what that passage says.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • Topher

      Thusly it is

      "That was when the subject was your assertions, which are not to be found in the Bible."

      What have I said that isn't backed up in the Bible?

      HOWEVER, when the topic include reality, ... "

      You're showing your presupposition that the Bible isn't reality.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Topher

      Jerry Lavinson

      "Why did you run away from Joey's comments, Topher. His point is very relevant, and it totally rebuts your Bible. Atheists are not at all what that passage says."

      I didn't run away. I just didn't think it warranted an answer. Obviously I doubt very much that answer. But I don't want to argue with him over it. I don't know him and so he could be correct on some of those. He obviously thinks very highly of himself. But honestly, "always obey my parents" ... really? Your parents never had to tell you to do something twice. You never once had to be reprimanded? Never got punished? Please.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
    • Jesus

      You're showing your presupposition that the Bible isn't reality.

      Facts areen't affected by presuppostions.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Joey

      I used to the the presupposition that the bible was reality, then I really gave it a close read.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Topher

      Joey

      What specifically changed your mind?

      January 17, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
    • Ayn Rand

      Topher, but c&p from the bible proves nothing. There is no proof that any god exists let alone your god. So c&p from the bible is a self-referencing circular argument.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
    • Jesus

      Polonius
      Joey, this is the part where Topher says … you are, and therefore your actual behavior is not what you actual do.

      Topher
      Obviously I doubt very much that answer.

      Nuff said!

      January 17, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      LOL So Tophers AMAZING refutation of the utter destruction of his argument that all people who don't believe as he does are evil people is "NU-UH". Wow, the depth of thought it must have taken for that one is truly astounding.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • Topher

      Ayn Rand

      "Topher, but c&p from the bible proves nothing. There is no proof that any god exists let alone your god. So c&p from the bible is a self-referencing circular argument."

      Maybe no proof, but tons of evidence. And it's not circular. I'm either just telling you what the Bible says or backing up my statements to show agreement.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
    • Jesus

      Maybe no proof, but tons of evidence

      Would you kindly share some of this evidence Topher?

      January 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "And it's not circular. I'm either just telling you what the Bible says or backing up my statements to show agreement."

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Joey

      What changed my mind? The fact that the entire story is absurd on its face.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • Topher

      Jesus

      "Would you kindly share some of this evidence Topher?"

      Sure. Since I hold the Bible to the highest of standards, let's start there. The Bible is a reliable collection of historical docu.ments written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses who claim to experience supernatural events. Basically, the Bible is HIGHLY trustworthy.

      Plus, the conscience reveals there's a God. Creation reveals there must be a Creator. First and Second Law of Thermodynamics. Entropy. Some science. That's just a few things ...

      January 17, 2013 at 3:05 pm |
    • Topher

      Joey

      "What changed my mind? The fact that the entire story is absurd on its face."

      Well, you believed it at one point. There must have been something to make you change your mind to it all being absurd.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • Joey

      Um Yeah, I grew up, and started to think for myself.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      "Plus, the conscience reveals there's a God. Creation reveals there must be a Creator. First and Second Law of Thermodynamics. Entropy. Some science. That's just a few things ..."

      AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
      Oh please, go more on science. It's just waaaay to funny!

      January 17, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Topher

      Joey

      "Um Yeah, I grew up, and started to think for myself."

      Nothing wrong with that. But there must have been something that started to swing your mind in the other direction. What was it?

      January 17, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Larry

      Topher, you do realize that the much lower crime rates of secular Europe totally disproves your biblical quote of the evil of atheists. As does the severe under-representation of atheists in the prison populace. Study after study finds atheists to commit less of the crimes you listed than Christians. If your quote was true, it would be radically the opposite.

      Your quote is proven to be false. Are you really so trapped in your circular logic that you cannot accept any outside evidence which contradicts your theology?

      January 17, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      "First and Second Law of Thermodynamics. Entropy. Some science. That's just a few things ..."

      Please explain how any of these are evidence of your God?

      January 17, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • Joey

      I got a degree in History, and realized that much of what the bible says is not true.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
    • Pete

      Topher thinks the moon proves that the Earth is 6-10 thousand years old, but I am not sure why.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • Topher

      Joey

      "I got a degree in History, and realized that much of what the bible says is not true."

      Interesting. I minored in History and didn't find any problems and have never heard a historian claim a historical error in the Bible. What did you find?

      January 17, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
    • Larry

      "The Bible is a reliable collection of historical docu.ments" – Wow, really? The four totally different and incompatible versions of the resurrection are reliable? Noah's Ark is reliable"

      "written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses" – nobody claims any of the bible is written by eyewitnesses.

      "Basically, the Bible is HIGHLY trustworthy." – no, it is not. No contemporary writing has ever been found to support any claim, even the existence of Jesus. It has EXACTLY the same reliability as the Quran, the Book of Mormon, and Dianetics. You totally fail to support the idea that the Bible is trustworthy.

      Creation reveals there must be a Creator – pure sophistry. For you to be able to call reality "creation", you must prove that it was created. There is absolutely no evidence for that at all. It's not "creation", and it is pure sophistry to use the world "creation" to say that it inherently proves a creator.

      "First and Second Law of Thermodynamics. Entropy. Some science." This has already been massively discredited. The laws of thermodynamics apply to closed energy systems. This is one of the lamest attempts for non-scientists to pervert science to say what it really doesn't say. More sophistry. I guarantee you do not understand the laws of thermodynamics at all. For example, explain to us what entropy is – you will make a fool of yourself trying. It's NOT decay.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
    • Smithsonian

      "I minored in History and didn't find any problems and have never heard a historian claim a historical error in the Bible. What did you find?"

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • Topher

      Pete

      "Topher thinks the moon proves that the Earth is 6-10 thousand years old, but I am not sure why."

      I doubt I have time to give this topic the time it deserves, but yes, the moon does support a young Earth position. We know the moon is receding from the Earth — about an inch and a half per year. Thus we know the moon was closer in the past. If you do the fancy-pants mathematic equation, you find some interesting things. If you go back 6000 years, the moon would have been about 800 feet closer. If you take into account the Earth being 4,000,000,000 years old (or whatever the claim is today) you have big problems. By the math, the moon would have been touching the Earth at only 1.5 billion years ago.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • Pete

      Well for starters the Egyptians never enslaved the Jews, and the plagues couldn't have happened as described in the bible because it would have resulted in the death or relocation of every Egyptian alive at that time, and we know that didn't happen.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • Topher

      Pete

      "Well for starters the Egyptians never enslaved the Jews,"

      Honestly, I don't know if there's evidence for enslavement, but there is evidence for the Exodus, thus it leads me to believe in the enslavement, too.

      "and the plagues couldn't have happened as described in the bible because it would have resulted in the death or relocation of every Egyptian alive at that time, and we know that didn't happen."

      Not sure I understand. Can you explain more?

      January 17, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
    • Pete

      Shall we take them one at a time?

      Water into blood: You can't drink blood, so you have a lose of drinking water. Which means that plants will wither, and animals and humans will die of dehydration. Any animals that live in the water would have died, and animals that ate them would have in turn starved or relocated. However, we see no evidence that any of this happened, and the Egyptians never mention it even though this would have been a huge deal if it happened.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
    • Gir

      @ Topher

      To quote a Republican congressman, YOU LIE!

      The creationist assertion about moon recession does not conform with

      The moon is receding at about 3.8 cm per year. Since the moon is 3.85 × 10^10 cm from the earth, this is already consistent, within an order of magnitude, with an earth-moon system billions of years old.

      The magnitude of tidal friction depends on the arrangement of the continents. In the past, the continents were arranged such that tidal friction, and thus the rates of earth's slowing and the moon's recession, would have been less. The earth's rotation has slowed at a rate of two seconds every 100,000 years (Eicher 1976).

      The rate of earth's rotation in the distant past can be measured. Corals produce skeletons with both daily layers and yearly patterns, so we can count the number of days per year when the coral grew. Measurements of fossil corals from 180 to 400 million years ago show year lengths from 381 to 410 days, with older corals showing more days per year (Eicher 1976; Scrutton 1970; Wells 1963; 1970). Similarly, days per year can also be computed from growth patterns in mollusks (Pannella 1976; Scrutton 1978) and stromatolites (Mohr 1975; Pannella et al. 1968) and from sediment deposition patterns (Williams 1997). All such measurements are consistent with a gradual rate of earth's slowing for the last 650 million years.

      The clocks based on the slowing of earth's rotation described above provide an independent method of dating geological layers over most of the fossil record. The data is inconsistent with a young earth.

      Source:http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE110.html

      The publications from which this information was determined are available at the link.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • Pete

      Death of all Egyptian livestock: Every Egyptian cow, horse, donkey, sheep, and oxen are killed. This would be a major problem. For starters animals were used for all sorts of jobs, many of which would have come to a complete stop if all of the livestock died. The worst problem, however, is that these animals were also sources of food. Keep in mind that all of the fish are already dead, and that since all the livestock is dead that means no baby animals are being born to replenish the now dead animals. The Egyptians now have no water and no livestock, but they don't bother ever mentioning it.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • Ayn Rand

      The Noah's Ark story has no historical evidence in addition to it being logistically impossible.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Ayn Rand

      No one has ever recreated the "miracles" of the bible – water into wine, walking on water, living under water (in a whale), human into salt, human living 100s of years, etc.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
    • Ayn Rand

      Astrophysics, evolution, DNA, etc. show that the Genesis creation story is not true.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • Pete

      Hail: Now hail comes and destroys the crops, and some more animals ( I assume these animals came from other countries as god has already killed all the livestock in Egypt) as well as some servants. So now the Egyptians have no water, no livestock and no crops to eat. People would certainly start to starve or would just up and move.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Topher

      You've made the evidence for exodus claim before, but still have not given the evidence when asked.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • Pete

      Locusts: Now locusts come and destroy the rest of the crops, and nothing green is left. Now there really is nothing left to eat in the entire country, and yet the Egyptians never mention such a thing happening. People are going to start dying in large numbers at this point.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • Topher

      Ayn Rand

      "The Noah's Ark story has no historical evidence in addition to it being logistically impossible."

      I disagree. There's been plenty of groups who have looked deeply into the size of the boat and other things and have shown it completely plausible. In fact, Answers in Genesis is building a life-size replica right now to prove it.

      "No one has ever recreated the "miracles" of the bible – water into wine, walking on water, living under water (in a whale), human into salt, human living 100s of years, etc."

      That just makes sense. They were miracles. If we could recreate them, they wouldn't be miracles.

      "Astrophysics, evolution, DNA, etc. show that the Genesis creation story is not true."

      How?

      January 17, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • Pete

      However the number one reason it couldn't have happened as described in the bible is the simple fact that the bible claims that when Moses parted the Red Sea, and the Egyptian army followed in their chariots they were all drowned. The only problem is that there are not any horses left in Egypt because god already killed them all.

      So to review we have massive death, economic ruin, the entire military killed; basically the destruction of Egyptian society, and yet when reviewing Egyptian history we see no evidence that any of it happened.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • Pete

      " In fact, Answers in Genesis is building a life-size replica right now to prove it."

      Good luck since there are between 3 – 30 million types of animals on this planet and there is no way one man would have been able to get them all on board one boat. It would be impossible. Then account for a the various foods they would need to eat makes it dam impossible. Only a delusional person would believe it's possible.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
    • Pete1

      Ok, I am adding a number to my name to tell the difference between us.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • Pete

      When the answers in genesis ship doesn't float will you admit that Noah's Ark is a myth?

      January 17, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
    • Topher

      Pete

      "Good luck since there are between 3 – 30 million types of animals on this planet and there is no way one man would have been able to get them all on board one boat."

      I would agree, but the Bible doesn't claim Noah put 30 million animals on the boat. It says "kinds" of animals. Thus you wouldn't need to put on a Chihuahua, Lab and Great Dane. You'd only need a pair of "dogs".

      "Then account for a the various foods they would need to eat makes it dam impossible. Only a delusional person would believe it's possible."

      That's exactly what AiG is setting out to show. They are taking into account space, no. of animals, amount of food, what to do with all the poo, etc. etc.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
    • Pete1

      "I would agree, but the Bible doesn't claim Noah put 30 million animals on the boat. It says "kinds" of animals. Thus you wouldn't need to put on a Chihuahua, Lab and Great Dane. You'd only need a pair of "dogs"."

      You are one delusional person, so idiot, think about it, some of earth's countries hadn't even been found yet so Noah would have been the one to find America. Animals are distinct in various habitats and you're trying to sell us that Noah would know how to trap and feed them all. What a joke.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
    • Topher

      Pete

      "When the answers in genesis ship doesn't float will you admit that Noah's Ark is a myth?"

      They aren't going to try to float it. It's on dry ground in the state of "being built" and will be a museum. But are you going to argue that wood doesn't float?

      January 17, 2013 at 5:27 pm |
    • midwest rail

      When AiG is finished with their "experiment", I'm sure they are going to allow reputable people of science to review their "results". ( eye roll )

      January 17, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
    • wicked witch of the west

      Well, God had some help with that task, Petey. He stole one of my secrets. Poppies. Yesss, poppiessss.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Gir

      1. Where on the ladder of classification does "kinds" fall?

      2. Does 'primate' count as a kind? If yes, would Noah and his family count as the primates that were placed on the ark? And if yes, do you accept that man and other primates share ancestors since every other primate would have to have diverged from Noah and his family?

      3. How do you react to the information that baraminology is a failed pseudoscience without scientific basis? (Williams)

      Williams, J. D. (2007). "Creationist Teaching in School Science: A UK Perspective". Evolution: Education and Outreach 1 (1): 87–88.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • Topher

      Pete1

      "You are one delusional person, so idiot, think about it, some of earth's countries hadn't even been found yet so Noah would have been the one to find America."

      First, America would have been under water as well, so no, Noah wouldn't have discovered America. Second, the ark didn't travel that far from its starting point.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • Gir

      @ Topher

      If we can't recreate miracles, we can't prove them, either. So what is the basis of your belief? (Just says it's irrational faith and let's be done with it.)

      And also, take into account the body temperature of the animals. In that tiny space, it would have been enough to burn the entire ark up. How do you account for this? Another unverifiable act of god?

      January 17, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      "When AiG is finished with their "experiment", I'm sure they are going to allow reputable people of science to review their "results". ( eye roll )"

      Any "reputable people of science" can buy a ticket like the rest of us. Besides, they've already done quite a bit of publication on the topic, so they can start there.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • Pete1

      "First, America would have been under water as well, so no, Noah wouldn't have discovered America. Second, the ark didn't travel that far from its starting point."

      That's why the story is a myth, cause of the diversity of the animal kingdom is the evidence that what the bible claims is impossible and didn't happen they way that it was told. Even a 2nd grader can get that.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
    • midwest rail

      So they're going to "prove" their case by not floating it, not allowing their results to be reviewed, and we're supposed to buy the reliability of said results. Yeah, ok, if that works for you.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Topher,
      Noah's Ark story. There is no geological or historical record. Also Noah would have had to travel to the Americas and Australia – then unknown to the "western world" in addition to all places accessible overland. Then return them. And that's not addressing the food and prey issues.
      A life-size replica using the dimensions in the bible would not hold 2 of each animal and bird plus food and mechanisms to separate prey from predators.

      Miracles. Do you trust everyone you meet at their word – so your bank account has your paycheck because the manager says so? Who else do you trust without evidence?

      Creation story. We can see from DNA and the fossil record that humans evolved from common descendents including fish, mammals, and apes.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • Topher

      Gir

      "If we can't recreate miracles, we can't prove them, either. So what is the basis of your belief? (Just says it's irrational faith and let's be done with it.)"

      True, it's faith, but I don't think it's irrational. I said this earlier, but I'll repeat it because it's important. The Bible is HIGHLY reliable. It is a reliable collection of historical doc.uments written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses who claim to have experienced supernatural events.

      "And also, take into account the body temperature of the animals. In that tiny space, it would have been enough to burn the entire ark up. How do you account for this? Another unverifiable act of god?"

      Yeah, I bet it was hot. But the ark had ventilation, so I reject the claim it would "burn the entire ark up." Could God have had a hand in this, too? Sure. But I don't know that.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      "So they're going to "prove" their case by not floating it, not allowing their results to be reviewed, and we're supposed to buy the reliability of said results. Yeah, ok, if that works for you."

      Don't twist my words, dude. Do we really need to prove wood floats? I didn't say they weren't allowing it to be reviewed. Their stuff IS reviewed. I'm just saying if you don't think what they come up with is likely accurate, buy a ticket and check it out.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • midwest rail

      My, you're touchy today. I asked if they were going to allow the results to be reviewed and your answer was that people of science could buy a ticket. That is not a review of their results, it's a viewing opportunity.
      There is a significant difference between throwing a piece of wood into the water and watching it float, versus building a massive ship that is actually stable and seaworthy.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • Ayn Rand

      You keep saying that the bible is highly reliable. Where is the evidence? There is very little in the bible that could be considered verifiably accurate. What else in life do you trust implicitly without any evidence?

      January 17, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      Free Nuts @ topher today runs deep aye top.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
    • The Traveler

      @ Topher

      Dude, I could respect your position if you said "I acknowledge that the bible has some glaring issues, but the overarching theme reaches me on a deep personal level and provides sufficient foundation for my faith in Jesus Christ."

      Your transparent rationalizations, circular reasoning, and intentional ignorance of obvious inconsistency are a shinning beacon of the weakness in your faith. The truly faithful do not need to explain the science and engineering underlying the bible because it is irrelevant to the mystery of faith - you, my friend, are trying way too hard to take the mystery out of the mystery of faith.

      s/ an agnostic /

      January 17, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      "[Ayn Rand sadi]'Astrophysics, evolution, DNA, etc. show that the Genesis creation story is not true.'
      How?"

      Just a couple of points, but there are many more:
      – The Geological record shows a much longer time frame between the beginning of the known universe and the first human beings than the Biblical 6 days. Likewise between the first plants and humans, 4 days and first fish and humans, 3 days
      – The order of life in Genesis is wrong. Genesis has birds before land animals and 'days' before the 'sun' and fruit (flowering plants) before land animals, all of which is contradicted by the Geologic record.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Gir

      Telling us what you believe does not validate your claims. Give us a reason that we can all experience and verify. We cannot all experience your particular brand of faith, and we cannot all reasonably place our faith in miracles for very obvious reasons. Personal experience is not a valid form of evidence because it lacks empiricism.

      The body temperatures of the all the animals on the ark (including every species of dinosaur I presume) would have been enough to incinerate the entire ark unless the ventilation openings were large enough to cause flooding of the ark before incineration could ever have occurred.

      The bible is NOT a reliable source of the history of the earth. There are NO peer-reviewed articles making that claim. It is possible to glean details about the culture of the Israelites from under all that myth and magic, but that's it.

      January 17, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • Topher

      Ayn Rand

      "You keep saying that the bible is highly reliable. Where is the evidence?"

      I've already explained this, but perhaps you need more details. Here's my position on the Bible with more details ...

      The Bible is a reliable collection of historical docu.ments (meaning not one single historical piece of the Bible has been proven wrong. All the kings and leaders existed, the cities existed and in the correct time frame. Even archaeology continues to support this.) written by eyewitnesses (these people actually saw what they wrote about) during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (meaning if the authors told lies or stretched the truth, this second group of eyewitnesses would have called them on it. It's an automatic baloney detector.) who claimed to witness supernatural events. (because we have the afore-mentioned evidence, we can also trust they saw Jesus heal the sick, bring others back to life, walk on water, feed thousands with just a few fish, rise from the dead and so on.)

      "There is very little in the bible that could be considered verifiably accurate."

      The historical evidence alone refutes this.

      January 17, 2013 at 6:03 pm |
    • Billy (7 years old)

      So those giant turtles that live in the Galapagos came all the way from the Middle East where Noah's ark dropped them off?? I don't think so.

      January 17, 2013 at 6:03 pm |
    • Gir

      Let me reiterate what part of what Traveler said. You can't judge the veracity of Biblical claims by citing the bible. That requires the assumption that the bible is true, when what-do-ya-know, that's what we were trying to determine in the first place. In the end, we'd have gotten nowhere in our attempt to evaluate the bible, because the primary question of its validity is still unresolved. That's circular reasoning.

      January 17, 2013 at 6:06 pm |
    • Topher

      The Traveler

      "Dude, I could respect your position if you said "I acknowledge that the bible has some glaring issues, but the overarching theme reaches me on a deep personal level and provides sufficient foundation for my faith in Jesus Christ.""

      But I don't believe there ARE any glaring issues. Granted, there's a few things I don't totally understand or could not answer a question on. But that's why ministries like AiG, Creation Ministries Intl., Ravi Zacharias, and so on, exist. To show not only does the Bible make sense, but it can be backed up by science and reason.

      "Your transparent rationalizations, circular reasoning, and intentional ignorance of obvious inconsistency are a shinning beacon of the weakness in your faith. The truly faithful do not need to explain the science and engineering underlying the bible because it is irrelevant to the mystery of faith – you, my friend, are trying way too hard to take the mystery out of the mystery of faith."

      Nah. I'm just excited that these things back up my faith. All you have to do is read the statements of atheists on this board to learn they know nothing about what they are rejecting and claim there is no evidence and nothing to back it up. I'm here trying to show that's not the case. Do I do a good job of it? Maybe not. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

      January 17, 2013 at 6:19 pm |
    • Gir

      Athens was a real city. Does that mean Athena exists?

      January 17, 2013 at 6:20 pm |
    • Topher

      And for those of you who like to contend that AiG doesn't do peer reviewed work or that there are NO Biblical peer-reviewed works ...

      "Answers Research Journal (ARJ) is a professional, peer-reviewed technical journal for the publication of interdisciplinary scientific and other relevant research from the perspective of the recent Creation and the global Flood within a biblical framework."

      January 17, 2013 at 6:22 pm |
    • ME II

      @Topher,
      AIG is blatantly biased and non-scientific:
      "By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.
      ( http://answersingenesis.com/about/faith )

      January 17, 2013 at 6:28 pm |
    • midwest rail

      That's different than "buying a ticket". Now, does it float ?

      January 17, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      Free nuts topher but g-od dame bolts for the arc are going to cost you

      January 17, 2013 at 6:36 pm |
    • Saraswati

      This is definitely the most entertaining thread I've seen all week. I'm not sure why people on either side of this debate would think it useful to argue about Noah's Ark, but all good stuff nonetheless.

      January 17, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
    • Get Real

      Topher,
      "...written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses who claim to experience supernatural events."

      You probably wouldn't buy a used car from Moses or the rest of those "eyewitnesses" if you ran across them today.

      There are more facts in the the 'testimony' of the Sham-Wow guy than any of them...

      January 17, 2013 at 6:43 pm |
    • Topher

      Saraswati

      It really is an interesting subject, isn't it?

      A couple other considerations on the topic ... the average size of an animals is about the size of a sheep. Noah could have gotten around size issues of large animals (including dinosaurs) would have been to take babies or juveniles. Saves on a lot of space and food.

      January 17, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
    • Gir

      "I believe this, I believe that."

      Who CARES? The purpose of your argument is to CONVINCE THE AUDIENCE, not just to state your beliefs for stating's sake. Give us concrete reasons why WE should believe you. Stop thinking about yourself for a minute, and have some respect for those you are talking to. Give us something, at least an ATTEMPT at presenting empirical evidence.

      January 17, 2013 at 7:16 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Two points I'd like to see addressed :
      1. Merely saying "wood floats" is in no way an indication that this ship will.
      2. AiG's statement that "By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.' is intellectually dishonest.

      January 17, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      " 1. Merely saying "wood floats" is in no way an indication that this ship will."

      What's the reason you think it wouldn't?

      " 2. AiG's statement that "By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record.' is intellectually dishonest."

      I get what you are saying, but that's just correct theology. The Bible is accurate and true. And let's face it ... we can't even figure out who shot JFK but we supposed know what happened thousands or even millions of years ago. And when historical science can't get its story straight, I have no reason to take what it says as gospel.

      January 17, 2013 at 7:46 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Topher – it is irrelevant whether I THINK it will or not. They have to PROVE it will.
      AiG cant claim to be peer reviewed science, and then dismiss the scientific method in their mission statement.

      January 17, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Topher", but your assertion "The Bible is accurate and true" is unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your assertions may represent truths is: "TOTAL FAIL".

      January 17, 2013 at 7:51 pm |
    • It si called

      @ topher
      Take it up with Yale
      Peace
      Have a common sense day OK

      Principles of Evolution, Ecology and Behavior (EEB 122)

      Geology and climate have shaped the development of life tremendously. This has occurred in the form of processes such as the oxygenation of the atmosphere, mass extinctions, tectonic drift, and disasters such as floods and volcanic eruptions. Life, particularly bacteria, has also been able to impact the geological makeup of the planet through metabolic processes.

      00:00 – Chapter 1. Introduction
      02:16 – Chapter 2. The Oxygenation of the Atmosphere
      09:08 – Chapter 3. Evidence of Climate Change
      17:36 – Chapter 4. Geological Impact on Life
      29:37 – Chapter 5. Mass Extinctions
      42:19 – Chapter 6. Earthquakes, Eruptions, and Floods
      46:38 – Chapter 7. Conclusion

      Complete course materials are available at the Open Yale Courses website: http://open.yale.edu/courses

      This course was recorded in Spring 2009.
      Category
      Education

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Dl_Vs-ZkY&w=640&h=390]

      January 17, 2013 at 7:55 pm |
    • Topher

      midwest rail

      "Topher – it is irrelevant whether I THINK it will or not. They have to PROVE it will."

      Fair enough. My opinion doesn't matter either. But when you say "I don't believe that wooden boat will float" I think you need to have a good reason to think it won't in order for them to set out to prove it. I know someone over in Europe tried to float their version, but it sank. The problem was, though, that it wasn't all wood. They used metal bracings and other things not Biblical. They have floated small models, but we both know that's not the same as a full-scale version.

      "AiG cant claim to be peer reviewed science, and then dismiss the scientific method in their mission statement."

      Just because you don't like their methodology doesn't mean they aren't peer-reviewed. There's plenty of creation scientists out there to review this work.

      January 17, 2013 at 8:01 pm |
    • Topher

      I'm going to start a new entry at the top of this board so we don't have to keep scrolling. Please answer there. :)

      January 17, 2013 at 8:03 pm |
    • Billy (7 years old)

      So how did Noah put those bug turtles on the Galapagos. You're just pulling my leg with all this religous junk.

      January 17, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
    • The Traveler

      @ Topher

      Ok. What do you think of faithful individuals that do not accept young earth creationism, the literalism of genesis, the flood story, Jonah and the whale, and the other more incredulous stuff in the bible, but nevertheless maintain strong faith in the gospel of JC?

      January 17, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
    • midwest rail

      I never made a statement as to whether the damn thing will float or not. They have the burden of proving that it will because they are representing it as a valid proof of Noah's Ark being possible. As to their work being reviewed, if only other creationists are reviewing their work, then they are merely confirming it;s conformation to theology, not science. It remains as intellectually dishonest as is possible.

      January 17, 2013 at 8:07 pm |
  10. myweightinwords

    I woke up with a migraine this morning, so I apologize in advance if I speak unfairly or without consideration today. I will endeavor to express myself without spite.

    January 17, 2013 at 11:07 am |
    • just wondering

      Why are you needed at all?

      January 17, 2013 at 11:24 am |
      • myweightinwords

        No one. I'm not saying I am. I come here because I enjoy it.

        January 17, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • SImran

      Jump in the pool myweight. I often do the same, take out my stresses here.
      But I think what you have is not migraine, but a stress headache.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:26 am |
      • myweightinwords

        I know the difference. I've had migraines since I was a teenager.

        This one isn't too bad, not like I can get them. The milder dosage of meds is managing it...as long as I keep the lights down and my shades on.

        January 17, 2013 at 11:37 am |
    • Which God?

      @ just wondering. Ever figure out how you got your head so far up your azz? You do 'speak schitt' very well.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:37 am |
    • Chick-a-dee

      Have you tried Maxalt? I've found it very effective. Feel better soon.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:41 am |
      • myweightinwords

        I'm on my non-prescription coktail today since I'm at work, but my current prescription is Imitrex. It works...for some value of the word work. If nothing else, I can sleep when I take it.

        Thanks.

        January 17, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • Which God?

      @mwiw. Hope you fell better soon. BB.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:44 am |
      • myweightinwords

        Thank you. I'm a little better after getting some breakfast and meds into me. I'd be even better if I didn't have to be at work.

        January 17, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Debra

      "I know the difference. I've had migraines since I was a teenager.

      This one isn't too bad, not like I can get them. The milder dosage of meds is managing it...as long as I keep the lights down and my shades on."

      If you're a woman you should make sure to have your blood pressure checked. One of signs leading to heart attacks in women is migraines. I use to get them but then I got on a regular sleep program, vitamin regiment and now I don't get them anymore.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:57 am |
      • myweightinwords

        My blood pressure is normal, high end of normal, but still normal. Thanks for the reminder though, I do need to check it with the migraine.

        I know what most of my migraine triggers are (high heat and too much sunlight are the biggest, followed by too much dairy and sometimes red wine). This one, however, surprised me.

        January 17, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ MWIW: That's good to hear. My evil insurance company wants me to switch to sumatriptan (imitrex & others). Nice to know that someone is using it with good results.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
  11. Gir

    He boiled for your sins, so that you may enjoy an eternity filled with VD-free s-t-r-ippers, pirate costumes, and a volcano of ever-fresh beer. Why don't you get to know the Flying Spaghetti Monster today?

    I pray that you will be Touched By His Noodly Appendage.

    R'amen.

    How do you rate my proselytizing, fellow religionists?

    January 17, 2013 at 10:44 am |
    • Kev

      Having beer with pasta?

      January 17, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • End Religion

      Gir, most excellent!

      January 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
  12. hal 9001

    If cabin pressure should change, panels above your seat will open revealing oxygen masks; reach up and pull a mask towards you. Place it over your nose and mouth, and secure with the elastic band, that can be adjusted to ensure a snug fit. The plastic bag will not fully inflate, although oxygen is flowing. Secure your own mask first before helping others.

    -Delta Airlines

    January 17, 2013 at 10:37 am |
    • It is Called

      Opps forgot to mention below.
      By the way all doors are off on the helo below
      Bell OH-58c

      January 17, 2013 at 10:51 am |
  13. It is Called

    Fear of yourself !!! Life Science is self.

    For the believers lets go meet your god(s)

    I always had the big bag for newbies but only one person lost it in my bird thank who ever for that.That one person just happened to be a General . He had asked me to take him on the newbie route he had heard about So we proceeded
    up the hill ( flight is NOE all the way last 15 min. at about 110 mph) over the trees down the hill to the jacksters (texas jack rabbit field and there holes) and then I would pick one out keep it away from it's hole for awhile or until the newbie had enough. Then it was back to flight line all noe up the creek by grandma house (old bunker) under bridge (that is where the Gen. lost it) up the hill and land safely at the pad. 15 min of extreme fear for the newbies.

    The true emotions came out on those rides. by the time I made it to top of hill they were calling out for ther other thing in the sky, they never found. Sort of like when you hit thumb with hammer. That phrase was heard alot in those flights. The Strories from long ago. Brings back the chuckles.
    But no god(s) required..

    January 17, 2013 at 10:37 am |
  14. nobody in particular

    @ Primework: I agree with you that many of the laws and regulations that are recorded in the Bible do not make sense to modern societies: they don’t make sense to me either, but many of these laws and regulations that are found in the Bible are designed in accordance with the customs of that day. God must have had to “wink” at these errors, as we see them; I’m not sure all of the laws commanded by Moses were in accordance with the plan of God; however these laws served to keep order in that society of time. Today, in our society, we would deal much differently with this sort of thing. In other countries it may be dealt with in another way—death to the man perhaps.

    January 17, 2013 at 10:29 am |
  15. Banjo Ferret

    I see no story about Ferretianism and the coming apocalypse. This displeases Tim the Destroyer of Worlds. Ferretianism is the one true religion. Repent! (banjoferret d c)

    January 17, 2013 at 10:28 am |
    • Seymour Snifflestein,The Great Overlord of Ferret-Gods and Tim's Boss

      Banjo, you have been deceived! Tim is not the Destroyer of Worlds! He runs aroound making that claim after he sneaks off from work and buys some Van Gogh PB&J Vodka (yes, there actually is a peanut butter and jelly-flavored vodka. You know, for kids). Somewhere during the resulting week-long binge, Tim starts claiming he is Destroyer of Worlds. He also claims he was the guy who shot Wyatt and Billy in "East Rider".

      However, Tim is not the Destroyer of Worlds but the Cleaner Of Port-A-Potties. You see, in the afterlife, if souls have knees and tongues, then they also have bowels.

      We have that "delusions of grandeur" problem with a lot of our minor deities. Jesus, Fluffer of Hotel Pillows and Allah, Wiper of Other Peoples' Bottoms, both go and meth binges and make claims that make Banlo's look quite sane.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
  16. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Pray without ceasing in 2013
    Prayer changes things

    January 17, 2013 at 8:53 am |
    • Jesus

      Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!

      January 17, 2013 at 9:15 am |
    • Gir

      Please don't vote.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:02 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but your repeated assertions regarding atheism and prayer are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 17, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
  17. Robert Brown

    There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food. But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man’s house. He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man’s table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them. The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham.

    The rich man also died and was buried. He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side, he said to Abraham, “Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I’m suffering terribly in this fire.”

    Abraham answered, “My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over.”

    But the rich man said, “Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father’s home. Let him warn my five brothers, so they won’t come to this horrible place.”

    Abraham answered, “Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that.”

    Then the rich man said, “No, that’s not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God.”

    So Abraham said, “If they won’t pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even to someone who comes back from the dead.”

    (Luke 16: 19-31 CEV)

    January 17, 2013 at 8:41 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Good morning, Robert. Hell is apparently a place of eternal torment that is a punishment for temporal acts. You did say recently that hell is a created thing. Is hell evil?

      January 17, 2013 at 8:45 am |
    • ME i

      Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

      Gautum Buddha

      January 17, 2013 at 9:01 am |
    • ME i

      On life's journey faith is nourishment, virtuous deeds are a shelter, wisdom is the light by day and right mindfulness is the protection by night. If a man lives a pure life, nothing can destroy him.

      Gautum Buddha

      January 17, 2013 at 9:02 am |
    • ME i

      I do not care to know your various theories about God. What is the use of discussing all the subtle doctrines about the soul? Do good and be good. And this will take you to freedom and to whatever truth there is....

      Gautum Buddha

      January 17, 2013 at 9:04 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Hell is terrible, it is the ultimate consequence of rejecting Christ, because if you go down without his righteousness you will be judged on you own merit. The good news is your pardon has been obtained and all you have to do is accept it.

      What we mean is that God was in Christ, offering peace and forgiveness to the people of this world. And he has given us the work of sharing his message about peace.

      We were sent to speak for Christ, and God is begging you to listen to our message. We speak for Christ and sincerely ask you to make peace with God.

      Christ never sinned! But God treated him as a sinner, so that Christ could make us acceptable to God.

      (2 Corinthians 5: 19-21)

      January 17, 2013 at 9:10 am |
    • JWT

      No hell, no god, no loss.

      January 17, 2013 at 9:12 am |
    • ME i

      It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.
      Buddha

      January 17, 2013 at 9:15 am |
    • It is Called

      to Robert Brown
      Keep religion out of politics and public schools in US.
      The 3 root causes ,

      Ethics and religion do not make good bed fellas
      Religion and politics do not make good bed fellas either.
      Mix all three and what do we get ?

      Something I do not want ...

      January 17, 2013 at 9:17 am |
    • ME i

      There's a lot of loose talk going around to the effect that Hell exists. It never seems to strike these gabby pundits that not to exist may be precisely the reality of Hell.

      January 17, 2013 at 9:19 am |
    • lunchbreaker

      So, exactly why did the rich man go to hell? And what did Lazarus do to earn salvation? If I remember correctly this tale is OT, meaning the supposed only means of salvation did not exist yet.

      January 17, 2013 at 9:40 am |
    • Primewonk

      Deuteronomy 22: 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and ràpes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

      Wat a sswell god you've chosen to worship. Demanding that young girls who are ràped marry their attackers. Hey Robert, your god demands this, yet I never see you nutters forcing these victims to marry the rapist. Why not?

      January 17, 2013 at 9:41 am |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      One really must be sick in the head to believe the twisted crap such as RB and other believers do.

      January 17, 2013 at 9:49 am |
    • SImran

      Primewonk,

      Will you marry your daughter to a man who ra..pes her?

      January 17, 2013 at 9:52 am |
    • SImran

      @ Primewonk,
      Sorry the question was not for you. It was for RB.

      And this is a question that Robert Brown will ignore for sure... Waiting for his reply.

      January 17, 2013 at 9:55 am |
    • nobody in particular

      @ Robert Brown: This story was told by Jesus and recorded in Lk 16:19-31: so what is your point?
      Christ told this story to iluistrate that men have a choice in life: either to live a rightious life or not, to depend on one's own resorces or to relie on God.

      January 17, 2013 at 9:58 am |
    • Damocles

      I let my mind wander in the gutter there for a minute, but it made me chuckle when Mr. Brown mentioned being judged on your own merit when you go down....

      January 17, 2013 at 9:59 am |
    • Joey

      Sorry Robert, but the bible doesn't even make for a good story.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:07 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Lunchbreaker,
      Yes, I agree, this was the transition from the law to grace. In the KJV, Lazarus went to Abrahams bosom, or a place of rest, not really heaven. The rich man went to a place of torment, nor really hell.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:18 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Primewonk,
      These instructions were for that time and place. In the ancient world and amongst the children of Israel it would be difficult for a girl to be married if she was not a virgin. Also, inheritance of property was through the husband. So, this rule was to protect the girl. If she did not marry the man who violated her she probably would never be able to marry and have a family.

      We are not under these rules today. This was for the children of Israel as a condition for Gods blessing and to remain in the land he gave them.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:21 am |
    • It is Called

      Fear of yourself !!! Life Science is self.
      For the believers lets go meet your god(s)
      I always had the big bag for newbies but only one person lost it in my bird thank who ever for that.That one person just happened to be a General . He had asked me to take him on the newbie route he had heard about So we proceeded
      up the hill ( flight is NOE all the way last 15 min. at about 110 mph) over the trees down the hill to the jacksters (texas jack rabbit field and there holes) and then I would pick one out keep it away from it's hole for awhile or until the newbie had enough. Then it was back to flight line all noe up the creek by grandma house (old bunker) under bridge (that is where the Gen. lost it) up the hill and land safely at the pad. 15 min of extreme fear for the newbies.

      The true emotions came out on those rides. by the time I made it to top of hill they were calling out for ther other thing in the sky, they never found. Sort of like when you hit thumb with hammer. That phrase was heard alot in those flights. The Strories from long ago. Brings back the chuckles.
      But no god(s) required..

      January 17, 2013 at 10:23 am |
    • SImran

      @ Robert
      "These instructions were for that time and place. In the ancient world and amongst the children of Israel it would be difficult for a girl to be married if she was not a virgin."

      So what other instructions stand outdated today? And precisely why would god not allow a woman to be married in a society where he dictated his terms even though she was not at fault?

      BTW, how did they check whether the gril was a vir.gin or not? Did they examine each girl before marriage? Wow, that would require ge.nital examination!

      January 17, 2013 at 10:27 am |
    • Robert Brown

      It is Called,
      That was a funny story, thanks for sharing.

      I had the opportunity to take a few of those rides, but it was before I knew enough to be afraid, knock a few limbs out of trees, feel like you could reach out and touch the ground, more like fun and exciting.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:33 am |
    • Chick-a-dee

      Tom, Tom, This isn't that long and it's not difficult to read or understand. The frequency with which you bring up the topic would lead one to believe that you have an interest in it. Here's the info. Do make wise choices about it.

      IV. HELL

      1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

      1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

      1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

      1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incu.mbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

      Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

      1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

      Father, accept this offering
      from your whole family.
      Grant us your peace in this life,
      save us from final damnation,
      and count us among those you have chosen.622

      Footnotes:
      612 1 Jn 3:14-15.
      613 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.
      614 Cf. Mt 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42,50; Mk 9:43-48.
      615 Mt 13:41-42.
      616 Mt 25:41.
      617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.
      618 Mt 7:13-14.
      619 LG 48 § 3; Mt 22:13; cf. Heb 9:27; Mt 25:13,26,30,31-46.
      620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529):DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.
      621 2 Pet 3:9.
      622 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:34 am |
    • Robert Brown

      SImran,

      The OT tells us a great deal about God, but all of the instructions were to the children of Israel. We can make spiritual application of most anything in the OT and there is a great deal of spiritual truth contained in it. 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

      As for the rest, your guess is as good as mine.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:42 am |
    • Robert Brown

      nobody in particular,
      The point is simple, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand!

      January 17, 2013 at 10:45 am |
    • SImran

      The instructions were for the children of Israel.

      So the children of Israel were what – some other kind of beings who needed a different set of values and morals than us the next generation of humans? They needed to consider the woman their slave, ruling her life, deciding for her as they deemed fit. And you tell me GOD WAS OKAY WITH THAT? No, actually he facilitated that! He could not tell them to kill the bas.tard who ra.pes a woman and then respect the woman bcoz she was not at fault!

      I wonder how many men would have ra.ped women who didnot want to marry them so that they could possess her!

      Sorry, but that is a pretty pathetic image of god you create there.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:51 am |
    • myweightinwords

      @Robert,

      Hell is terrible, it is the ultimate consequence of rejecting Christ, because if you go down without his righteousness you will be judged on you own merit.

      To be completely honest, I would rather be judged on my own merit, on the good and bad I have done, on the lives I've touched, on the change I made in the world, then to have nothing matter beyond what I believe.

      The good news is your pardon has been obtained and all you have to do is accept it.

      It isn't a pardon. A pardon means no punishment. Your own theology says that the price was paid. So it isn't a pardon.

      And, on top of that, what is there to be pardoned for? Being human? I don't think that's my fault.

      What we mean is that God was in Christ, offering peace and forgiveness to the people of this world. And he has given us the work of sharing his message about peace.

      How can anyone be at peace believing that an innocent person suffered and died in their place? How is it forgiveness if someone has "paid" the debt? It isn't. It's just transference. Nothing good or moral about it.

      We were sent to speak for Christ, and God is begging you to listen to our message. We speak for Christ and sincerely ask you to make peace with God.

      I made my peace with "God" a long time ago. It required leaving behind all of the trappings of Christianity and the dogma that made me believe I was worthy of an eternity of suffering.

      Christ never sinned! But God treated him as a sinner, so that Christ could make us acceptable to God.

      Any god that requires blood sacrifice to make me acceptable is not a god I care to be acceptable too.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • It is Called

      THanks RB nickname was tree chopper Mac.
      But RB... what about when you mix all 3 root causes together what happens?

      Is not a bad lay.

      January 17, 2013 at 10:59 am |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Primewonk:

      Answer by Fr. John Echert on 10/14/2000:
      The book of Deuteronomy records:

      22:22 "If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall purge the evil from Israel. 22:23 "If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, 22:24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you. 22:25 "But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 22:26 But to the young woman you shall do nothing; in the young woman there is no offense punishable by death, for this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor; 22:27 because he came upon her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her. 22:28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.

      The commandments and punishments of this section relate primarily to the issue of adultery and secondarily to other considerations. The situations described in verses 22-27 are capital offences because they are acts of adultery and violate the commandment given by God, for even when betrothed a couple was regarded as bound by the fidelity of marriage. Of course, a woman who is forced into intercourse against her will—ra pe—as in verses 25-26 is not subject to punishment for she did not will to commit adultery.

      As to the situation of verses 28-29, though this was an act of violence and possibly against the law of Israel, it was not regarded as a capital offence, for it did not consti.tute adultery. So a standard of justice was applied which was less than a death penalty. The perpetrator was obliged to take the woman as his wife, for having destroyed her virginity she was rendered unsuitable for any other future husband. Today we would not tolerate such behavior by the laws of the United States, however, we must not judge all matters of the ancient world by our present legal system. Marriages in the ancient patriarchal world were arranged in far different ways from today, as we see, for example, in the case of the patriarch Jacob who obtained a wife—ultimately two—from his uncle Laban by working for him for a period of seven years. A woman had few rights and her future outside of her immediate family depended upon a husband, however that came about.

      Christianity has tempered and transformed many of the OT ways which God tolerated, which ways were not intrinsically evil but fell short of the ideal that the human person is called to. And why did we–and do we–fall short? Because of sin: original and personal.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:02 am |
    • Robert Brown

      It is Called,
      The tree tops were fun, but my favorite was when we got down a few feet off the ground going who knows how fast sideways, with my side going forward, what a trip.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • It is Called

      @RB hoovering was the hardest. But what about question below.

      It is Called

      to Robert Brown
      Keep religion out of politics and public schools in US.
      The 3 root causes ,

      Ethics and religion do not make good bed fellas
      Religion and politics do not make good bed fellas either.
      Mix all three and what do we get ?

      January 17, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • Robert Brown

      SImran,

      These rules were also to prevent retribution. This was when an eye for an eye was the rule. I can’t recall off the top of my head where it is but there is a story in there about a r.ape where the brothers of the victim found out and they went and killed the perpetrator and most of his kin.
      If you will be honest I think you can recognize that God dealt with men in their time. This was the custom in those days for the men to take care of the women.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • It is Called

      @RB
      What about the question below
      Thanks for the commenst on story.

      Keep religion out of politics and public schools in US.
      The 3 root causes ,

      Ethics and religion do not make good bed fellas
      Religion and politics do not make good bed fellas either.
      Mix all three and what do we get ?

      January 17, 2013 at 11:16 am |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Lunchbreaker: "So, exactly why did the rich man go to hell? And what did Lazarus do to earn salvation?" Both were governed by Mosiac law. Obviously one kept it and the other didn't. There isn't any docu.mentation to the specifics.

      The Profession of Faith
      Paragraph1:Christ Descended into Hell (632 – 637)

      632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.

      633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" — Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek — because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom": "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell." Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

      634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead." The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

      635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage." Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."

      The Bosom of Abraham

      In the Holy Bible, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found
      only in two verses of St. Luke's Gospel (xvi, 22, 23). It occurs
      in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is
      plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world
      of the dead which were current in Our Lord's time. According to
      the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were
      gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old
      Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings
      (cf. Luke, xvi, 22 in the Gr. xvi, 23). A local discrimination,
      however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their
      mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the
      righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was
      distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or
      compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The
      latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf.
      Matt., v, 29, 30; xviii, 9- Mark, ix, 42 sqq. in the Latin
      Vulgate)- the other, a place of bliss and security known under the
      names of "Paradise" (cf. Luke, xxiii, 43) and "the Bosom of
      Abraham" (Luke, xvi, 22 23). And it is in harmony with these
      Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the
      selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the
      patient Lazarus. In the next life Dives found himself in Gehenna,
      condemned to the most exeruciating tor ments, whereas Lazarus was
      carried by the angels into "the Bosom of Abraham", where the
      righteous dead shared in the repose and felicity of Abraham "the
      father of the faithful". But while commentators generally agree
      upon the meaning of the figurative expression "the Bosom of
      Abraham", as designating the blissful abode of the righteous souls
      after death, they are at variance with regard to the manner in
      which the phrase itself originated. Up to the time of Maldonatus
      (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back to the universal custom of
      parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees,
      their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make
      them rest by their side during the night (cf. II Kings, xii, 2;
      III Kings, iii, 20; xvii, 19; Luke, xi, 7 sqq.), thus causing them
      to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After
      the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children
      after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the
      metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to
      be in repose and happiness with him. But according to Maldonatus
      (In Lucam, xvi, 22), whose theory has since been accepted by many
      scholars, the metaphor "to be in Abraham's Bosom" is derived from
      the custom of reclining on couches at table which prevailed among
      the Jews during and before the time of Christ. As at a feast each
      guest leaned on his left elbow so as to leave his right arm at
      liberty, and as two or more lay on the same couch, the head of one
      man was near the breast of the man who lay behind, and he was
      therefore said "to lie in the bosom" of the other. It was also
      considered by the Jews of old a mark of special honour and favour
      for one to be allowed to lie in the bosom of the master of the
      feast (cf. John 13:23). And it is by this illustration that they
      pictured the next world. They conceived of the reward of the
      righteous dead as a sharing in a banquet given by Abraham, "the
      father of the faithful" (cf. Matt., viii, 11 sqq.), and of the
      highest form of that reward as lying in "Abraham's Bosom". Since
      the coming of Our Lord, "the Bosom of Abraham" gradually ceased to
      designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become
      synonymous with Heaven itself. In their writings the Fathers of
      the Church mean by that expression sometimes the abode of the
      righteous dead before they were admitted to the Beatific Vision
      after the death of the Saviour, sometimes Heaven, into which the
      just of the New Law are immediately introduced upon their demise.
      When in her liturgy the Church solemnly prays that the angels may
      carry the soul of one of her departed children to "Abraham's
      Bosom", she employs the expression to designate Heaven and its
      endless bliss in company with the faithful of both Testaments, and
      in particular with Abraham, the father of them all. This pas.sage
      of the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" from an imperfect and
      limited sense to one higher and fuller is a most natural one, and
      is in full harmony with the general character of the New Testament
      dispensation as a complement and fulfilment of the Old Testament
      revelation.

      FRANCIS E. GIGOT

      January 17, 2013 at 11:19 am |
    • Robert Brown

      It is Called,

      Ethics – Imagine a world where everyone lived by the two commandments that Jesus called the greatest. Simply put, love God and your neighbor as yourself.

      Politics- I believe, so not only do I want to elect folks who I think are good leaders, but I also try to elect folks who I think will represent my ideas. We have a representative government. I don’t want to take away anyones rights, but I don’t want to lose any of mine either.

      The mix is unavoidable because all three involve humans who have beliefs.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • Saraswati

      I would TOTALLY listen to someone who came back from the dead over a random holy book.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • SImran

      "These rules were also to prevent retribution. This was when an eye for an eye was the rule. I can’t recall off the top of my head where it is but there is a story in there about a r.ape where the brothers of the victim found out and they went and killed the perpetrator and most of his kin.
      If you will be honest I think you can recognize that God dealt with men in their time. This was the custom in those days for the men to take care of the women."

      Story where people killed most of the kin??? Really? And why the kin? Did they commit the crime/

      And how did god deal with men? Sorry, but to be really honest, I can't see how?

      So, men were supposed to take care of women. How? By marrying her to the ra..pist? Couldn't the imp.otent god tell them to treat her like a virgin and get married to the man she deserved to?

      January 17, 2013 at 11:22 am |
    • It is Called

      @RB you get WAR plain and simple been proven over time !!!

      Something I do not want.
      Peace !

      Histoey

      January 17, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • It is Called

      to Robert Brown

      It is called wa-r history tells us so fact.

      Thanks thou shall not what.

      Something I do not want war !!

      Peace

      January 17, 2013 at 11:29 am |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ It is called: "Mix all three and what do we get ?"

      Ethics, religion and politics addressed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) in "RELATIVISM: THE CENTRAL PROBLEM FOR FAITH TODAY" May 1996.

      http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/ratzrela.htm

      January 17, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Myweightinwords,
      Your merit won’t do it, the scales of justice are rigged, one bad thing out weighs all the good.

      Transference yes, your account is cleared, it could be called forgiveness, forgiveness of a debt because someone else paid it for you.

      Peace, that is the key. You asked the question on here something to the effect that when you are troubled what brings you peace. Jesus says peace be still. He gives the peace that is beyond comprehension.

      Peace, hope, and joy to you!

      January 17, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • It is Called

      @RB
      Remove god(s) religion from mix all you end up with is dirty money (politics)

      Facts

      January 17, 2013 at 11:33 am |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Saraswati: "I would TOTALLY listen to someone who came back from the dead over a random holy book."

      Cool. Christ's already done that and left plenty of instructions for you to listen to.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • It is Called

      Thanks RB
      But there won't be peace until we face the facts of life.

      By the why it has been proven as fact we are HARD WIRED for HOPE at birth.
      Peace.

      No god9s0 required

      January 17, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Your merit won’t do it, the scales of justice are rigged, one bad thing out weighs all the good.

      Then they aren't scales of justice. Why would you let your god slide on something you wouldn't let a person slide on? I mean, if our "justice" scales worked like that, everyone would be in jail. That isn't justice. That's evil.

      Transference yes, your account is cleared, it could be called forgiveness, forgiveness of a debt because someone else paid it for you.

      Forgiving the debt means no one ever has to pay it. I prefer to pay my own debts.

      Peace, that is the key. You asked the question on here something to the effect that when you are troubled what brings you peace. Jesus says peace be still. He gives the peace that is beyond comprehension.

      His peace comes at the expense of living the life I was born to, the price is my integrity and morality. That isn't peace, it's hiding from life.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:45 am |
    • It is Called

      Brand new F-35 fighter plane cost over 1 billion dollars for 1.
      What was that made for?
      God9s) did not make it.
      But it will take 1,000's of lives not good.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Saraswati

      @Chick-a-dee, Nope, I need to see it for myself. My dead mother comes back in material form (and allows me to take a meaningful video) and I promise I'm a convert to whatever she says.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • It is Called

      @RB This is what is REAL !!!

      Brand new F-35 fighter plane cost over 1 billion dollars for 1.
      What was that made for?
      God9s) did not make it.
      But it will take 1,000's of lives not good.

      January 17, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ It is called: "By the why it has been proven as fact we are HARD WIRED for HOPE at birth."

      Not surprising. We're given the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Each of these perfect certain basic virtues. Hope is one of the basic virtues.

      I guess it's good in some way that someone has come up with "proof" for what we've already been taught for the last however many thousands of years.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Saraswati: Good luck with that.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:06 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      RB, re the kingdom of some god being at hand, are saying soon, as in the next few years?

      January 17, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Chick-a-dee, just saying that's how I would arrange things if I were a god. Nothing says "yes, there is an afterlife" like letting people talk to and docu’ment conversations with their dead loved ones. It helps too if the loved ones give out bank account numbers for that lost inheritance.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Saraswati: I understand what you're saying. You want a guarantee first. That's not the way faith works.

      January 17, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Chick-a-dee, that's what makes the Christian god so uncool.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      1
      Saraswati,
      Jesus came back from the dead, will you believe him?

      January 17, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      SImran

      “Story where people killed most of the kin??? Really? And why the kin? Did they commit the crime”

      Yes really. No, they didn’t commit a crime, well except for the ra.pist. God was angry with them for killing the kin.

      “And how did god deal with men? Sorry, but to be really honest, I can't see how?”

      I meant he dealt with them in their circu.mstances, in the time and place where they lived. This was the culture of that time. A women without a man (husband or father) often had to turn to prosti.tution to survive.

      “So, men were supposed to take care of women. How? By marrying her to the ra..pist? Couldn't the imp.otent god tell them to treat her like a virgin and get married to the man she deserved to?”
      Marriages at this time were commonly arranged between the parents. God was protecting the women in the culture they lived in. The single men would have shunned her because after she had been with a man they consider her somehow damaged goods. She was no longer desirable.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Robert, If he comes and talks to me and lets me video tape it (for verification of my own psychological state) sure. Otherwise that's one lazy and biased god who'll show this evidence to some and not others and then base eternal life decisions on belief status.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      It is Called,
      We all want peace, but we can’t have it, until Jesus comes again and removes sin from the earth.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      It is Called,
      We are hard wired for hope, peace, and joy, through our desire for God.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Myweightinwords,
      God’s scales are not our scales, his are perfect.

      You said you prefer to pay your own debts. As Christians we do, Jesus obtained our reconciliation to God, from then on, when we sin, we pay for them in the flesh, so we don’t have to pay for them for eternity. You reap what you sow.

      To obtain his peace you do have to surrender your will to his. Some who resist do it out of pride.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      It is Called,
      A strong man armed keeps his house.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls,
      The moment you die, eternity for you begins, in effect eternity has begun for a whole lot of people since Jesus said those words.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Get Real

      Robert Brown
      "Jesus came back from the dead, will you believe him?"

      I don't believe that he did come back from the dead.

      Your legendary Doubting Thomas was allegedly given 'proof' of this, right? What am I... chopped liver?

      I do not need to be "more blessed" than that Thomas guy...

      January 17, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry "Robert Brown" and "Chick-a-dee", but "God" is an element of mythology, therefore your assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL".

      January 17, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Saraswati,
      God is a spirit, so I don’t know about the video tape thing. Would you be satisfied with your own personal experience, that you couldn’t record and show others? The effects would be tangible in that you would behave differently and those you know and love would know something had happened. You wouldn’t be able to show them a video tape, but they would see a difference in you. Would that work?

      January 17, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • Get Real

      Robert Brown,

      - An omniscient "God" would know *precisely* what proof is acceptable to each and every one of us individually.

      - An omnipotent "God" would be able to provide it.

      - An all-loving and all-just "God" would do so for all.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Saraswati: Really????? I think it's very cool. It totally releases one from worrying about day to day stuff.

      January 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Get Real,

      Yes, Thomas was given proof. No, you are not chopped liver. Come to him in faith and you can be blessed with whatever you need.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Chick-a-dee

      @ Get Real: Why? Because you want it that way? Because you think that little ol' you can come up with a better way? And that it is better by virtue of the fact that it frees you from those pesky things like humility and obedience? If you had a two year old, would you let him/her come up with the rules and cater to them? Who knows, in the grand scheme of things maybe we haven't even evolved into the equivalent of a two year old on God's scale.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      @Robert,

      God’s scales are not our scales, his are perfect.

      Scales weighted that way are far from perfect, Robert. They are defective. An entire life of good deeds worthless because of a lack of belief in something?

      You said you prefer to pay your own debts. As Christians we do, Jesus obtained our reconciliation to God, from then on, when we sin, we pay for them in the flesh, so we don’t have to pay for them for eternity. You reap what you sow.

      I reap what I sow now. I do good, good things happen. I do bad, punishment follows. No blood sacrifice required. Certainly not for the nebulous "sin" of not believing something.

      To obtain his peace you do have to surrender your will to his. Some who resist do it out of pride.

      I was a Christian for many years. I submitted to what I believed was God's will. I experienced what you consider peace.

      What I have found since then surpasses anything I ever knew then. The love and compassion that fills my life now is astounding. The empathy I have for my fellow human beings is immense.

      My life is well and truly changed. For the better.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
    • SImran

      @ Robert,

      "Marriages at this time were commonly arranged between the parents. God was protecting the women in the culture they lived in. The single men would have shunned her because after she had been with a man they consider her somehow damaged goods. She was no longer desirable."

      Exactly my point Robert – was god so stupid or senseless that rather than standing by the woman, he simply affirmed the belief of the people that she is INDEED damaged goods, and needs to be treated as such!!! Why didn't he tell the people that since this woman was not at fault, she should be treated like a virgin??? How hard would it have been for him?

      January 17, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      So you have to believe to believe, and you have to die to experience the kingdom of god, but there's no proof for any of this.

      And believers think nonbelievers have problems! I don't have any problem telling the sane from the insane. No doubt, believers are mentally ill, liars or both.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Myweightinwords,

      Good for you. I am glad you are happy. If you ever find the path you are currently on no longer satisfies please consider returning to your first love.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      SImran,
      That is a good question, why? I am ok without knowing the answer to that one. Part of it may be that God seems to interfere to keep things going along with his ultimate plan, but doesn’t overrule unless it is necessary to keep his plan on track.

      January 17, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls,
      If all believers are mentally ill and nonbelievers are the only ones who are sane, then I can accept that, but I am not being dishonest with you. What would be my motivation to lie to you?

      January 17, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Robert Brown, I know enough about psychology to know that people often see people who aren't there. I would want some independent verification to check later and have confirmed by outside witnesses. People are also often changed by things that aren't true...believing in ghosts or elves or [pick something you don't believe in that others do]. So seeing a change in me does not, in my mind, offer any convincing evidence. If I thought God came to me and people didnt believe me I would think they were quite sensible, even if they were people close to me. If god were all powerful he could certainly provide me with a video, or a giant gold pyramid...or something to offer as substantial evidence. Not to do so would simply be teasing.

      January 17, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      Mental illness is sufficient to explain delusional believers propagating their delusions. I accuse alleged believers of possibly being liars because there are material benefits to maintaining the religious status quo that some (many?) probably take advantage even though they do not actually believe the god/jesus myth.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Saraswati,
      If that is what you need, I hope you get it. Based on my personal experience if you seek God, believing that he is, you will find him, or more accurately he will reveal himself to you.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls,
      I agree that there are people who use religion to line their own pockets. I am not a pastor, employed, or paid by any religion. So what is my motivation?

      January 17, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Robert Brown, I don't think I'll be taking time to seek out a Christian god among the millions of possibilities of the unknown, but if one decides to reach out to me I'll certainly welcome him. And hopefully have that video camera ready.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Saraswati

      OK, dude or dudete, I hope he provides what you need. I know he is able. Peace.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
    • 0G-No gods, ghosts, goblins or ghouls

      Then it appears you need the help of a meal health professional.

      January 17, 2013 at 5:17 pm |
  18. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Rise up and do your best to help make the world a sustainably better place. Peaceful nil awaits you, hopefully after a long and happy life. Or, if you want, spend your life preparing for an eternity of bliss with a loving God. That seems to work for some. Nil awaits them too.

    January 17, 2013 at 8:11 am |
  19. niknak

    Morning all,
    Winter has arrived in my corner of cyberspace, but it is going to be sunny at least.
    And as always, another beautiful day withuot god(s).

    January 17, 2013 at 7:53 am |
  20. Chick-a-dee

    Rash people, those with excessive confidence, are generally cowards putting on a brave face.

    Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics

    January 17, 2013 at 6:45 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Be humble and even fearful. Innumerable gods know your every thought.

      January 17, 2013 at 7:46 am |
    • It is Called

      Ethics and religion do not make good bed fellas
      Religion and politics do not make good bed fellas either.
      Mix all three and what do you get ?

      January 17, 2013 at 8:40 am |
    • End Religion

      a bad lay?

      January 17, 2013 at 9:29 am |
    • It is called

      That too !
      Maybe a god dame shi-tty war too always happens.

      No god(s) required

      January 17, 2013 at 10:04 am |
    • Saraswati

      I'm going to stick with the DSM and say mania of bipolar disorder or narcissistic personality.

      January 17, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.