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Godless mom strikes a chord with parents
A CNN iReport essay on raising kids without God draws record-breaking number of comments.
January 18th, 2013
06:32 PM ET

Godless mom strikes a chord with parents

By Daphne Sashin, CNN

Deborah Mitchell remembers the time, when her boys were younger, and another mom asked her about her religious beliefs.

Mitchell was raised Catholic but moved away from religion in her early 20s. She told the other mother that she didn’t go to church and didn’t even really believe in God.

Then, she says, the recruiting started.

“She used to call my house and tell me she was praying for me. She’d leave me messages and leave cards in my mailbox with scripture,” Mitchell says. “I do realize that she meant well, but at the same time, I know my views were seen as wrong. I needed to be ‘saved.’”

Mitchell, a mother of two teenagers in Texas who feels “immersed in Christianity,” started a blog about raising her children without religion because she felt frustrated and marginalized. She didn’t want to feel so alone, she says.

This week, she gained a whole new audience and the reassurance that she's not alone. Her essay on CNN iReport, “Why I Raise My Children Without God,” drew 650,000 page views, the second highest for an iReport, and the most comments of any submission on the citizen journalism platform.

It starts:

When my son was around 3 years old, he used to ask me a lot of questions about heaven. Where is it? How do people walk without a body? How will I find you? You know the questions that kids ask.

For over a year, I lied to him and made up stories that I didn’t believe about heaven. Like most parents, I love my child so much that I didn’t want him to be scared. I wanted him to feel safe and loved and full of hope. But the trade-off was that I would have to make stuff up, and I would have to brainwash him into believing stories that didn’t make sense, stories that I didn’t believe either.

Mitchell posted the essay detailing her seven reasons for raising her children without God on CNN iReport because she felt there wasn’t anyone else speaking for women or moms like her. As she sees it, children should learn to do the right things because they will feel better about themselves, not because God is watching. She asks questions like: If there was a good, all-knowing, all-powerful God, why would he allow murders, child abuse and torture?

Lots of people disagreed with her. Tons. They flagged her iReport as inappropriate and criticized CNN for linking to her essay on the CNN.com homepage. But there were plenty of others who wrote thoughtful rebuttals, respectfully disagreeing with Mitchell while not foisting their own beliefs on her. Take, for instance, a Methodist dad, who said faith can be hard to nail down, but “not to avail ourselves of the power of something we don't completely understand is silly.”

Others said Mitchell presented a simplistic view of religion.

“Presentations such as these seem to ignore a substantial percentage of believers - well-educated, compassionate, liberal folk, Christian and non-Christian alike - who, I feel, are able to worship without being blind to the realities of the world, or without lying to their children about their understanding of these complexities,” wrote commenter RMooradian. “I'll be raising my children with God, but I understand those who cannot!”

But Mitchell’s essay also struck a chord with hundreds of like-minded parents raising children in a world where lack of belief puts them in the minority, often even in their own family.

“Thank you for writing this. I agree with everything you say, but I’m not brave enough to tell everyone I know this is how I feel,” a woman who called herself an “agnostic mommy of two in Alabama” posted in the comments. “Thank you for your bravery and letting me know I’m not alone.”

It’s a growing group. One in five Americans is not affiliated with any religion, and that number has grown by 25% in the past five years, according to a survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. Of that group, 88% said they were not looking for religion, although 68% of the unaffiliated said they believe in God. 

Brittany Branyon, an American graduate student and substitute teacher living in Germany, was also compelled to express her thanks to Mitchell. Branyon was raised Southern Baptist in Georgia and Alabama. In high school, when she began to question the theory of creation and befriended gay and lesbian students, she says her mother tried to perform an exorcism.

“She opened all the windows and doors in the house, brought me to the door, held my shoulders and shook me while screaming, ‘Satan, get out of this child!’, ‘Satan, leave this child alone!’.”

After moving away from the South, she and her husband “became more comfortable in our secular ways,” but still take criticism from family members. They are now expecting their first child.

“Though we are elated to welcome our child into the world, we can’t help but dread the religious uproar that is to come from our families,” she wrote in an e-mail.

Such an uproar is familiar to Carol Phillips, a stay-at-home mother in northern Virginia. When she gave birth to her first child, she said her family was shocked that the baby wasn’t baptized. She said her mother-in-law cried and told her the little girl’s soul would not go to heaven.

Then there are the comments from strangers. Last year, Phillips said she and her daughter were at a birthday party when a tornado warning sounded.

“We were all in the basement keeping safe. A little girl was saying baby Jesus will keep us safe. My daughter asked who Jesus was. The rest of the time was spent hearing ‘I'll pray for you sweetie, we can take you to church with us if you want,’” Phillips told CNN.

Commenting on Mitchell’s iReport, Phillips said, “To live out loud and to speak freely about my beliefs brings many clucking tongues. I would think it’s easier to come out as gay than atheist.”

Mitchell said she spent years studying the history of religion and does believe it has “an important place in our community.” She has told her children that she’ll be fine if they decide to join a church when they are older.

She ended her essay:

I understand why people need God. I understand why people need heaven. It is terrifying to think that we are all alone in this universe, that one day we—along with the children we love so much—will cease to exist. The idea of God and an afterlife gives many of us structure, community and hope.

I do not want religion to go away. I only want religion to be kept at home or in church where it belongs. It’s a personal effect, like a toothbrush or a pair of shoes. It’s not something to be used or worn by strangers. I want my children to be free not to believe and to know that our schools and our government will make decisions based on what is logical, just and fair—not on what they believe an imaginary God wants.

After her post ran on CNN, Mitchell said she was encouraged by the number of people who agreed with her, or who disagreed but wanted to have a respectful discussion.

“I’m not saying that everybody should think how I do. I’m saying the people that do should have a place in our society and have acceptance and respect,” she said. “I just want to have children grow up and be able to not be afraid to say ‘I don’t believe that,’ or ‘I’m not part of that.’” 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief • Christianity • iReport

soundoff (15,081 Responses)
  1. ReligionIsBS

    Has anyone else noticed that Rebecca makes bogus posts, then gets destroyed by the rebuttals, and NEVER defends her original post?

    January 22, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      That's because "rebecca" is just the latest in a long line of troll names, the current nom de troll as it were.
      Probably part of the same stupid experiment seeing if people will be nicer to a troll with a female name.
      don't feed the troll.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • E.B.

      wow....pretty harsh wouldn't you say?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • dale

      didnt notice.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • katie

      same thing with dale. I'm sure that's why he didn't notice.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • E.B.

      Katie – I don't like name calling BUT I have to agree....

      January 22, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
  2. Rebecca

    You devils can mock and ridicule all you want.
    That's okay.
    You'll be dead in a few decades.
    You and your wise-cracks will be proven wrong
    God's creation will go on for billions of years well after you are dead, .
    You'll look pretty stupid when God and his creation is left standing for billions of years while you are nothing but bones and dust.
    You won' be able to make your wise-cracks when you're dead.
    Whose side should I choose: a mortal, wise-cracking atheist who lives for a few decades who can't create much of anything (except maybe flatulence), or a God who can create billions of galaxies with billions of stars that will last for billions of years?
    The choice is obvious.

    January 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      So which god did you choose? Thor? Mithra? Zues? Ra? Allah? Horus?

      Let me guess, the god that your parents told you about.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Rebecca,

      Your argument is completely based on fear of your "loving" god. I can honestly say I would not treat anyone the way you claim your god does. That makes me a more loving, merciful and moral being than your god.

      Threats of eternal punishment betray a weak argument.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • E.B.

      Rebecca – I was raised Catholic and I have to agree with ReligionIsBS...ever heard of brain washing?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      I recognize this troll. Different name, same ridiculous claims
      DO NOT FEED THE TROLL

      January 22, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      E.B.

      I was raised catholic too! But its ok, i recovered!

      January 22, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • Roger that

      God's creation will go on for billions of years well after you are dead, .

      Man created god. It's very unlikely man will go on for billions of years much less one of the religions created by man.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
    • dnsbubba

      It isn't mocking or ridiculing you when I state that I don't share your beliefs, due to the lack of evidence for them. It is neither a comment on you personally, nor a comment on the "quality" of your beliefs.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • fred

      Roger That
      Ouch you have that backwards. Man could not have created God and this is fact accepted by all scientists with intellectual integrity. While the question of God and proof for or against Gods existence is debatable the order of creation is not. Consider the basic understanding that there must be causation or first cause. Without doubt man was not that first cause or causation. Scientists who are not believers would say this unknown clearly existed before man.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Fred
      So the unknown existed befoer man...still doesn't say god existed, and since we can only see god in men, and no where else, it is reasonable to conclude that all gods were created by men, There are no records that pre-date man that show the presence of any gods.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • Thomas

      God himself could post a comment here in his own defense, and atheists would still attack him, instead of trying to understand and accept him and his explanations about things.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Thomas
      You have a book written by men in which the men tell you what god is, and does. Nothing more. You don't know if your god exists, and would have no way of knowing what he wants. Grow up.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • Bet

      Man could not have created God and this is fact accepted by all scientists with intellectual integrity.

      Could you provide examples of this?

      While the question of God and proof for or against Gods existence is debatable the order of creation is not.

      I suggest you reread Genesis1 and 2. The order of creation isn't consistent even in your own book.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @fred,

      "Man could not have created God and this is fact accepted by all scientists with intellectual integrity."

      Wow, you want to name just one of these "scientists".

      January 22, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • fred

      Richard Cranium
      “we can only see god in men, and no where else, it is reasonable to conclude that all gods were created by men”
      =>when 56 out of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence stated in that declaration “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” the unanimous position was that our creator was self evident. This is core of your misunderstanding as somehow God or a creator is not self evident to you. Exactly when did you rise above the creation itself? See, we either finds ourselves humbled by the greatness, wonder and awe that surrounds us or contrary to all we see believe we have capacity to know the unknown our way.

      “There are no records that pre-date man that show the presence of any gods.”
      =>I suppose you consider Neanderthals preparation for the afterlife a record of man. The earliest records of man show awareness of God. You have gone to a great deal of cover up in an effort to deny the presence of something you wish not see.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      And fred has the same ridiculous, useless, fallacious, moronic posts that he's had for months now. I guess when you can't think for yourself, then you wouldn't be able to come up with anything else.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • fred

      Bet
      Genesis 1 is the account of eternal God the creator of all things setting down all necessary matter for the introduction of man. Genesis 2 is a continuation with a focus on personal relationship between man and God setting forth purpose and meaning for existence. There is a shift in the Hebrew word used for God that denotes "ok, now here is the personal part". Notice that Genesis 1 God creates this and that whereas Genesis 2 God now formed man with His hands from that which was created.
      This difference by the way is why non beleivers are hung up on proof for God. They some how think we can difine God or measure God by created things (baryonic matter) because that all we know in the absence of Genesis 2. God formed man from the dust with His hands. It is a personal touch setting out a relationship that is apart form the material things of the world that trap us all at some time or another.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
    • fred

      Saraswati
      Take your pick. There have been thousands of man made gods and will continue to be more. If man existed before causation then man would have created all known matter including the source matter for evolution so that 14 Billion years latter that man in the form of man could make up a god that was just like himself.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Yup, it really is the same bullshit. fred are you so incapable of presenting anything that might even be considered a cogent argument?

      January 22, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      Everything you just said is a matter of your personal opinion. I would love to hear just one thing in my post (this thread not a memory fart from last month) that is factually false.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • dale

      @ fred ,aparently since they dont believe in evil deception, every false religion is proof that God is a myth.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      How about that your Declaration post merely is an appeal to authority to people who weren't authorities in logic, science (in most cases), or theology, and does absolutely nothing to actually demonstrate that a god actually does exist. Your position in this "argument", if it even deserves that term, is "Well THESE people say it was self-evident, and I think it is, therefore we're right and if you don't think the same then you're just blinded by yourself because you don't want to and I'm right about that because I am."

      January 22, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • fred

      dale
      I was looking at the curriculum for a comparative religions course and observed that the goal was to show all religions are correct in the faith of the respective believer therefore all religions are false that contain any element of exclusivity. In short only the man made religions founded on relativism are even possibly valid.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      The reference relative to 56 out of 56 great men that made America possible made no statement about their scientific knowledge or anything of that nature. The unanimous opinion of these Great men who were leaders in their community and leaders of the foundation of the greatest superpower ever known to mankind as simply an example that self evidence of God is observable in others. That self evidence was not even seriously questioned until 400 years ago.
      Self evidence exists as to God that is a fact. I never said that simply because God is self evident to 7 billion people over the recorded history of mankind produces the conclusion God exists as that would ring the bell of the ad populum checker.
      So, you are wrong. I am still waiting for one thing I said that was not factually correct.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
    • Bet

      @ fred

      You stated that " God formed man from the dust with His hands. It is a personal touch setting out a relationship that is apart form the material things of the world that trap us all at some time or another."

      Genesis 2:19 states "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky."

      So god created all animals, birds and man out of the dust of the ground. Does god also have personal relationships with each animal and bird, then, since they were also formed by his hand out of the dust of the ground? Does god judge animals and require them to accept god's salvation?

      January 22, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      As to appeal to authority I did no such thing you did.
      My statement was a presentation of facts as to God being self evident. That is not disputable.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      So your amazing refutation is to restate the comment, then just say "you're wrong" because you say so? Yup, pretty standard of you.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:02 pm |
    • fred

      Bet
      In chapter 2 the Hebrew word for God shifted to present the personal touch the personal attribute of God. In 2:19 we are now getting into the setting for why Eve was necessary. God begins by expressing his love for Adam in saying look what I made for you all these animals to name. God saw Adam needed more so Eve was formed for him. The personal part is in the reason for presentation of the animals as to relationship with Adam not relationship with the animals.
      Theologians love all the Hebrew poetry they see in all this which I do not understand.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      No, you added your opinion to a statement of fact and tried to justify your slanderous statement about me personally.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:12 pm |
    • Bet

      The personal part is in the reason for presentation of the animals as to relationship with Adam not relationship with the animals.

      How do you know this?

      January 22, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Oh really? And how was my post slanderous to you? Why don't you try to take me to court over it? I'll give you my info so you can try.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
    • fred

      Bet
      Between Genesis 1 and 2 the word “God” used in our common translations is not obvious unless you go to the footnotes and see that the Hebrew used two different meanings. Now, in 2:19 that personal element is very clear as it is translated the Lord God not just God. The translation Lord God does not do justice to the original word unless you know it. “The Lord God formed………He brought them to the man”
      This bringing to the man is key in understanding the why the Hebrew had a personal God not an impersonal God.
      Another problem is that when the scrolls were translated it was decided to put things into sentences, verses and chapters to make it more understandable. This also truncated the smooth flow.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      You said: "fred has the same ridiculous, useless, fallacious, moronic posts that he's had for months now"

      So, I was just looking at what was "fallacious" as the rest is your personal opinion. You have not come up with any so I guess they are factually correct.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      And I gave a very accurate summary of your argument.
      "Well THESE people say it was self-evident, and I think it is, therefore we're right and if you don't think the same then you're just blinded by yourself because you don't want to and I'm right about that because I am."
      This is your argument fred, and calling it slanderous because you don't like being called on it is pretty sad.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      no, you added to it. I was only expressing a fact that God was self evident to Great men. This is in reply to a post asking what points to god other than stuff men made up.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
    • ¿¿lol

      It's known even to the stars that fred cannot give any evidence of his beliefs. Heresay "historians" – hah! No surprise of course, as there is none to be found. Unknown authors of the gospels, accused, of course in plagiarizing pagan writings. It seems the early apologists could not dispel the obvious conflicts, and since the pagan writings were earlier, they called it a pre-emptive strike by satan; LOL.

      January 22, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      And yet it doesn't point to anything except that those people believed in a concept of a god, not even really your concept, because it doesn't state "god of the bible" or "christian god". It's merely an appeal to authority to people who aren't even authorities in anything relevant, which is what I also pointed out. So how were my posts slanderous again?

      January 22, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • Bet

      @ fred

      How do you know that god doesn't have a personal relationship with all animals?

      January 22, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • fred

      LOL you are living in a world that is upside down !
      Turn it around and say 7 billion people throughout all recorded history worshiped something greater than themselves. They were all wrong but I cannot prove that.
      78% of Americans are nuts because they believe in something I don't even though there is no proof of my world view.
      The awe, beauty and wonder of our world just happened for no reason I can think of at the moment.
      My hope is in an unknown but I know that someday we will know what we don't know, yet I have no proof of such possibility

      January 22, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
    • fred

      Bet
      Given that the Bible makes reference to the sin of mistreating animals we know God has compassion and concern for them. God also referred to his son as the Lamb of God. The new heaven and earth will have the Lion and Lamb together so there is peace. Animals were not harmed until after man broke away from God. This tells me harming of animals was a result of sin not the love of God

      January 22, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Bet

      @ fred

      God also kills animals and commands man to kill them, as in the flood story, the story of Job, the laws concerning animal sacrifice and countless others. God must have a good reason for doing this, right?

      These animals were his creations, formed by him out of the dust of the ground. So again, how do you know that god doesn't have a personal relationship with animals, given that they were created in the same manner and subject to the same judgement as man?

      January 22, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      The onus is not on those rejecting the assertion to prove it wrong. Besides, an unfalsifiable claim like "god done it" by definition cannot be proved nor disproved, and is indistinguishable from the non-existence of what is claimed, and as such is completely useless to posit.

      January 22, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • fred

      Bet
      “God also kills animals and commands man to kill them”
      =>it was not so until after man rejected Gods garden created for the benefit of man. The creation we see today incorporates the knowledge of Good and Evil which is what man wanted rather than continue with God. The Bible reports on that Good and Evil which includes floods, sacrifice and countless others.

      “God must have a good reason for doing this, right?”
      =>yes man wanted it all even though God warned man not to touch the knowledge of Good and Evil.

      “So again, how do you know that god doesn't have a personal relationship with animals, given that they were created in the same manner and subject to the same judgement as man?”
      =>after the fall as evidenced by the flood story God blotted out man who became evil beyond what was permissible (Job story God still limits evil). The animals which were created for the benefit man and a gift to man were washed away with the object of Gods creation (man).
      There are no verses I am aware of where God interacts with animals in a personal way as with Man. Man was created in the image of God which refers to the cognitive and expressive abilities necessary to love God and appreciate the awe, wonder and beauty of goodness. God created man in order to shower him with goodness in all its creative forms. God is goodness and this is the natural outpouring that would flow from that eternal state. The interaction we see between a puppy and a loving soul would not be inconsistent with that outpouring but we do not have any specific reference to it.

      January 22, 2013 at 6:46 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      fred, If the bible had been written by chimpanzees I think the emphasis would have been on chimpanzee/god interaction.

      January 22, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Rebecca, Look up Pascal's Wager to see the folly of your assertion.

      January 22, 2013 at 6:51 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      How convienient that you do not need proof when you say;
      -there is no afterlife we die like dogs
      -ah look natural selection therefore no God needed
      -ah spontaneous creation might be proven someday therefore no God needed
      -just because 7 billion people worship does not there is something to worship
      -God is self evident, but since God is not evident to me it can’t be evident to you
      -there is no soul we are just confused by self awareness
      -animals have the same self awareness as humans
      -language evolved by natural selection
      -we don’t know the purpose of existence but we know it has nothing to do with God
      -we don’t know what we don’t know but know it can’t be God
      -anything is possible given enough time
      -quantum mechanics is illogical but proves no God needed.
      -all of Gods promises have come to pass but that is just coincidence

      January 22, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
    • fred

      In Santa we trust
      Chimps are atheists and would not write about God

      January 22, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      What an utter failure.

      "-there is no afterlife we die like dogs"
      Provide a link to where I have made that assertion. I will say that there is no evidence of a "soul" (in any common usage of the word) or afterlife.

      "-ah look natural selection therefore no God needed"
      There is a purely naturalistic explanation for the diversity of life, so yes a "god" is not needed for that particular issue.

      "-ah spontaneous creation might be proven someday therefore no God needed"
      If you are positing that god spontaneously created everything, then yes you need to prove it first, otherwise you cannot assert that it happened and god did it, nothing about "no god needed", so nice Straw Man.

      "-just because 7 billion people worship does not there is something to worship"
      I assume you meant "does not mean there is something to worship", and I will point out that you would be correct if you are talking about people who believed while they were alive. This being because there are about 7 billion people worldwide, yet there are still atheists so it wouldn't be 100%.

      "-God is self evident, but since God is not evident to me it can’t be evident to you"
      You are asserting that it's self-evident as a way to avoid your burden of proof. No matter who says it's self-evident, that doesn't make it true.

      "-there is no soul we are just confused by self awareness"
      If you are equating soul and self-aware, then a soul exists. Any extra attributes still need to be proven.

      "-animals have the same self awareness as humans"
      Where did I say that? Oh that's right never. Hmm, another Straw Man.

      "-language evolved by natural selection"
      When did I say that? 3 Straw Men fred? You're just on a roll today aren't you?

      "-we don’t know the purpose of existence but we know it has nothing to do with God"
      Are you talking about intrinsic purpose or self-assigned purpose? I reject intrinsic purpose outright because that automatically assumes that "something" gave us purpose, which hasn't been proven. So Straw Man #4.

      "-we don’t know what we don’t know but know it can’t be God"
      Did I ever say that? Sheesh 5 Straw Men in a single post. Are you going for a record or something?

      "-anything is possible given enough time"
      No. It is not possible for me to be made completely out of string cheese and still be alive. Straw Man #6.

      "-quantum mechanics is illogical but proves no God needed."
      When did I say this one? Straw Man #7.

      "-all of Gods promises have come to pass but that is just coincidence"
      A flat out lie. Nebuchanezzer never destroyed Tyre or Egypt, as was prophesied in Isaiah.

      Well fred, I think this qualifies as an example of fractal wrongness if I've ever seen one.

      January 22, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      good gosh sasquatch! My point on factual accuracy was on prior post not this last one I made.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:24 am |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      "-there is no afterlife we die like dogs" I will say that there is no evidence of a "soul" (in any common usage of the word) or afterlife.”
      =>again you add your assumption about soul which was not mentioned. So you admit that your extension of biologic evolution into a world view is self limiting. It has no value in establishing anything that can address that which the Bible addresses or that which Jesus addressed. Knowing that you need to stop pretending that the theory of evolution has any basis upon which to say no god needed. Further, you need to admit that your world view has no more evidence than the Christian world view.

      “There is a purely naturalistic explanation for the diversity of life, so yes a "god" is not needed for that particular issue.
      =>and off you go into philosophical naturalism which is not science.

      "-ah spontaneous creation might be proven someday therefore no God needed"
      =>no, that is the atheist non supported excuse not the biblical which says God is causation.
      If you are positing that god spontaneously created everything, then yes you need to prove it first, otherwise you cannot assert that it happened and god did it, nothing about "no god needed", so nice Straw Man.

      “This being because there are about 7 billion people worldwide, yet there are still atheists so it wouldn't be 100%.”
      =>no there have been 9-11 billion people that have walked the face of this earth over time. 7 billion is the estimated number that worshiped. This is less than 100%

      "-God is self evident, but since God is not evident to me it can’t be evident to you"
      You are asserting that it's self-evident as a way to avoid your burden of proof. No matter who says it's self-evident, that doesn't make it true.”
      =>agreed it does not make it true but it remains self evident

      "-there is no soul we are just confused by self awareness"
      If you are equating soul and self-aware, then a soul exists. Any extra attributes still need to be proven.
      =>ok we do lack proof of extra attributes.

      “"-animals have the same self awareness as humans"
      Where did I say that? Oh that's right never. Hmm, another Straw Man.”
      =>so we are more than animal thus after life may be different for humans than animal.

      Ok, ya got me on the rest they were not thought out.

      January 23, 2013 at 1:43 am |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      "=>again you add your assumption about soul which was not mentioned. So you admit that your extension of biologic evolution into a world view is self limiting. It has no value in establishing anything that can address that which the Bible addresses or that which Jesus addressed. Knowing that you need to stop pretending that the theory of evolution has any basis upon which to say no god needed. Further, you need to admit that your world view has no more evidence than the Christian world view."
      Wow talk about a complete non-sequitur. Do you even know what you're talking about now? You're talking about addressing things that have no evidentiary support when you're talking about what the bible and jesus addressed. It's completely irrelevant. Not to mention apparently in your eyes my entire worldview is based completely on my acceptance of evolution, which is a flat out lie. Don't you fucking dare tell me what my world view is based upon fred, because you have no fucking idea.

      "“There is a purely naturalistic explanation for the diversity of life, so yes a "god" is not needed for that particular issue.
      =>and off you go into philosophical naturalism which is not science."
      Actually science works off methodological naturalism. If you're going to use science, at least know what you're talking about.

      "-ah spontaneous creation might be proven someday therefore no God needed"
      =>no, that is the atheist non supported excuse not the biblical which says God is causation.
      If you are positing that god spontaneously created everything, then yes you need to prove it first, otherwise you cannot assert that it happened and god did it, nothing about "no god needed", so nice Straw Man."
      So you will still try to avoid your buden of proof with your standard "BIBLE BIBLE RAH RAH BIBLE BIBLE RAH", which is still completely useless.

      “This being because there are about 7 billion people worldwide, yet there are still atheists so it wouldn't be 100%.”
      =>no there have been 9-11 billion people that have walked the face of this earth over time. 7 billion is the estimated number that worshiped. This is less than 100%"
      Read my post again you blind moron. That's exactly what I said, that I assumed you meant 7 billion if you're including those who came before! Jeez if you're going to disagree with a comment, at least make sure you ACTUALLY disagree!

      "-God is self evident, but since God is not evident to me it can’t be evident to you"
      You are asserting that it's self-evident as a way to avoid your burden of proof. No matter who says it's self-evident, that doesn't make it true.”
      =>agreed it does not make it true but it remains self evident"
      What the fuck are you talking about? Self-evident would mean it exists, so you're basically saying god exists because I say so, never mind that it's not truly self-evident because then it would be impossible for atheists to exist. How fucking stupid are you really trying to be fred?

      "-there is no soul we are just confused by self awareness"
      If you are equating soul and self-aware, then a soul exists. Any extra attributes still need to be proven.
      =>ok we do lack proof of extra attributes."
      HOLY SHIT AN ADMITTANCE OF LACK OF PROOF! QUICK GET THE HOLY WATER I THINK FRED IS POSSESSED!

      “"-animals have the same self awareness as humans"
      Where did I say that? Oh that's right never. Hmm, another Straw Man.”
      =>so we are more than animal thus after life may be different for humans than animal.""
      That's another non-sequitur. That's like saying a fish is more than a bateria therefore a fish gets a better afterlife. Nevermind the fact that you have still given absolutely NOTHING to corroborate that there even IS an afterlife.

      Were you even trying to make sense fred? You might have been, since there was at least one point on which there is no contention from me. At least you got out of the area of fractally wrong to mostly wrong on almost everything.

      January 23, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      One of us is blind to the things of God while the other is blind to a way of thinking that obscures God.

      I really am trying to see what you see which leads to no God needed (that jump from facts to a world view different than a purpose for existence that is something other than a gift from God). I doubt I ever really saw reality from a position of no God even though I rejected God and certainly religion for an extended period of time.

      Eternity is an element key to my need for an explanation that God is needed. Do you believe there is such a thing as eternity? By that I mean there was no beginning or possibly no end. I like the way C.S. Lewis put it “eternity is a sheet of paper expanding infinitely in all directions while time is a short line drawn on that sheet”.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Are you going to address my post or not?

      January 23, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
    • fred

      “hawaiiguest

      "You're talking about addressing things that have no evidentiary support when you're talking about what the bible and jesus addressed.”
      =>I doubt you really want me to give you list of things the Bible addressed which have evidentiary support. Your response to each would be so what.

      “Not to mention apparently in your eyes my entire worldview is based completely on my acceptance of evolution, which is a flat out lie.”
      =>really? If evolution was proven to be nothing more than a regression analysis that concludes carbon is a building block of life your world view is blown out the window. Without evolution naturalism fails.

      “and off you go into philosophical naturalism which is not science."
      Actually science works off methodological naturalism. If you're going to use science, at least know what you're talking about.”
      =>I hate to quote Wiki but:” This is what separates methodological naturalism from philosophical naturalism – the former is merely a tool and makes no truth claim; while the latter makes the philosophical – essentially atheistic – claim that only natural causes exist.”
      Hint, it is your philosophy not scientific facts that block your ability to see God.

      “If you are positing that god spontaneously created everything, then yes you need to prove it first”
      =>likewise if you are positing an alternative purpose for existence”

      “Self-evident would mean it exists, so you're basically saying god exists because I say so, never mind that it's not truly self-evident because then it would be impossible for atheists to exist.”
      =>correct that is why we are trying to save your soul. If the Creator is self evident to me and not self evident to you one of is wrong as this self evidence is mutually exclusive. You have stated a thousand times you cannot disprove a negative so when it is self evident to you there is no God that awareness must be false.

      “That's like saying a fish is more than a bateria therefore a fish gets a better afterlife.”
      =>thanks, you just confirmed the possibility of afterlife. You have just advanced to the worship level of the Neanderthal who found afterlife to be self evident.

      January 23, 2013 at 6:23 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      "You're talking about addressing things that have no evidentiary support when you're talking about what the bible and jesus addressed.”
      =>I doubt you really want me to give you list of things the Bible addressed which have evidentiary support. Your response to each would be so what."
      How cute.

      "“Not to mention apparently in your eyes my entire worldview is based completely on my acceptance of evolution, which is a flat out lie.”
      =>really? If evolution was proven to be nothing more than a regression analysis that concludes carbon is a building block of life your world view is blown out the window. Without evolution naturalism fails."
      My atheism is not contingent on evolution. You just keep running with that Straw Man, which is kind of sad.

      "“and off you go into philosophical naturalism which is not science."
      Actually science works off methodological naturalism. If you're going to use science, at least know what you're talking about.”
      =>I hate to quote Wiki but:” This is what separates methodological naturalism from philosophical naturalism – the former is merely a tool and makes no truth claim; while the latter makes the philosophical – essentially atheistic – claim that only natural causes exist.”
      Hint, it is your philosophy not scientific facts that block your ability to see God."
      Ah so because I didn't see any evidence of the supernatural and I operate on philosophical naturalism until presented evidence that supports the supernatural that makes me unable to see the supernatural. Can you say confirmatory bias?

      "“If you are positing that god spontaneously created everything, then yes you need to prove it first”
      =>likewise if you are positing an alternative purpose for existence”"
      Purpose has absolutely nothing to do with it! Sweet fucking christ can you possibly get any more fallacious in your posts? I am not positing anything, and even if I were, you STILL NEED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF YOUR ASSERTIONS!

      "“Self-evident would mean it exists, so you're basically saying god exists because I say so, never mind that it's not truly self-evident because then it would be impossible for atheists to exist.”
      =>correct that is why we are trying to save your soul. If the Creator is self evident to me and not self evident to you one of is wrong as this self evidence is mutually exclusive. You have stated a thousand times you cannot disprove a negative so when it is self evident to you there is no God that awareness must be false."
      And that all just assumes you're right. Essentially you are merely continuing to say "It's self-evident because I say so, so there".

      "“That's like saying a fish is more than a bateria therefore a fish gets a better afterlife.”
      =>thanks, you just confirmed the possibility of afterlife. You have just advanced to the worship level of the Neanderthal who found afterlife to be self evident."
      You dishonest little fuck. You specifically leave out what I was responding to, and completely misrepresent what I say. Are you so fucking pathetic that you need to constantly be dishonest merely to make yourself feel better about the fallacious crap you're spewing?

      January 23, 2013 at 6:39 pm |
    • Archibald Smythe-Pennington, III

      hawaii: “If you are positing that god spontaneously created everything, then yes you need to prove it first”

      fred: likewise if you are positing an alternative purpose for existence”

      => Nonsense, fred. One not need *know* the purpose for existence to see the deception and poor support in suggestions man has made on his own to date about such things.

      hawaii: “Self-evident would mean it exists, so you're basically saying god exists because I say so, never mind that it's not truly self-evident because then it would be impossible for atheists to exist.”

      fred: correct that is why we are trying to save your soul. If the Creator is self evident to me . . .

      =>Nonsense again, fred. Well of course, unless you can provide a demonstration to prove your point – otherwise it remains a belief *claim* and not *knowledge* of anything.

      January 23, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
    • fred

      thanks!

      January 24, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      “My atheism is not contingent on evolution”
      =>ok is your atheism based on anything other than you just don’t know?
      Exactly how are you and I any different? You are blinded by Philosophical naturalism to that which you cannot see and reject all those who tell you about the reality of God. The reality of God is that God is not subject to manmade laws and methodology.
      You are demanding God present His reality in a form acceptable to you and God says I have heard that same demand from my creation for thousands of years. The fact you demand God to present Himself to you is reason alone that you would never see such evidence if provided.

      “I operate on philosophical naturalism until presented evidence that supports the supernatural that makes me unable to see the supernatural. Can you say confirmatory bias?”
      =>no, it is a statement of fact is it not?

      January 24, 2013 at 5:45 pm |
    • God's honest truth

      Then chimpanzees are smarter than fred.

      January 24, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • fred

      God's honest truth
      Thank God for natural selection.

      January 24, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      ""My atheism is not contingent on evolution”
      =>ok is your atheism based on anything other than you just don’t know?
      Exactly how are you and I any different? You are blinded by Philosophical naturalism to that which you cannot see and reject all those who tell you about the reality of God. The reality of God is that God is not subject to manmade laws and methodology.
      You are demanding God present His reality in a form acceptable to you and God says I have heard that same demand from my creation for thousands of years. The fact you demand God to present Himself to you is reason alone that you would never see such evidence if provided."
      How ridiculous. I've said before, my atheism is based on THE LACK OF EVIDENCE YOU FUCKING MORON! Are you so damned blind to anything outside your little bubble that you can't even grasp that simple fucking concept? I accept philisophical naturalism because IT IS DEMONSTRABLE! Nothing to do with being "blinded" by anything you illogical moron! I demand EVIDENCE from fucks like you who merely want to go around spouting off whatever the hell you want without any kind of challenge, and when challenged resort to moronic fallacies like confirmatory bias, special pleading, false premesis, etc.! I demand nothing from your "god" because I don't think he even exists!

      "“I operate on philosophical naturalism until presented evidence that supports the supernatural that makes me unable to see the supernatural. Can you say confirmatory bias?”
      =>no, it is a statement of fact is it not?"
      If it were a statement of fact, then it would be fact. CAN. YOU. FUCKING. DEMONSTRATE. IT. YOU. FALLACIOUS. FUCK.

      January 24, 2013 at 6:27 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      That is your statement not mine, so you just called yourself a name I would never use.
      Read your last paragraph again you are arguing with your own statement. What is interesting is when you lose and argument to yourself you even resort to calling yourself names.
      At least you are consistent

      January 24, 2013 at 9:02 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      MORE CHERRYPICKING DISHONESTY FROM FRED THE FUCKING ASSHAT!

      Here's the entire thing that you cherry picked from

      ""“and off you go into philosophical naturalism which is not science."
      Actually science works off methodological naturalism. If you're going to use science, at least know what you're talking about.”
      =>I hate to quote Wiki but:” This is what separates methodological naturalism from philosophical naturalism – the former is merely a tool and makes no truth claim; while the latter makes the philosophical – essentially atheistic – claim that only natural causes exist.”
      Hint, it is your philosophy not scientific facts that block your ability to see God."
      Ah so because I didn't see any evidence of the supernatural and I operate on philosophical naturalism until presented evidence that supports the supernatural that makes me unable to see the supernatural. Can you say confirmatory bias?"
      I was addressing YOUR fallacious fucking idiocy you dishonest pile of shit. How pathetic are you really willing to be fred, where the only thing you can do is cherry pick and be dishonest to keep your own points valid.
      Continue lying for Jesus fred, I'm sure your "god" absolutely loves that.

      January 25, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • fred

      hawaiiguest
      As one who is a fundie of philosophical naturalism you fail to follow your own belief system. If you claim only facts count then stick with the facts otherwise just admit you fail to adhear to your own beliefs.

      January 25, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @fred

      Another Red Herring to avoid addressing what I post? Well I guess if you can be okay with posting 7 Straw Man arguments at once then one in a sentence may even be a step up for you.

      January 25, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
  3. dale

    Bet still there? I am not catholic. how does a priest whatever goes on there, differ from everything going on in the world? this is an immoral world. do the priests kidnap and murder? they are demonically driven freaks, why are they priests i do not know. but they dont represent the Holy Spirit. \thats like saying the gov, because of clinton (lewenski) is what ever......we dont really drag the whole gov. down because of his lying blunder. the devil has done his work in an attempt to pollute the name of Jesus. dont buy in to it. you would be robbing your self. dont go become a catholic, but dont take it out on the Lord. all people deserve redemption. especially children.

    January 22, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      So in other words, god in incapable of defeating the devil. Why do you worship such a lousy powerless god?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      I guess you people do believe in a boggieman.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      He is who he is.
      ?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      The devil is Jesus' best friend. He does all his dirty work. The devil is impotent without Jesus' consent and therefore Jesus approves everything the devil does in your dogma.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • dale

      When jesus departed he said "I go to prepare a place for you", He is preparing heaven, and another reason we wait for this promise is because souls are presently being called into the eternal kingdom.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • Bet

      You still haven't explained why you tell people to go to church, talk to members, and believe in their "experiences" as proof of god, but on the other hand, you dismiss the actions of members of churches when they don't serve your purpose.

      BTW, this isn't limited to the RCC and their pedophile priest cover ups. There are plenty of examples in every religion.

      You continue to push the parts that further your cause and dismiss the ones that don't as "not representing the holy spirit". Convenient.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      So he's making a special place for us in the afterlife, yet he cant fix the problems on earth. What makes you think the devil wont mess up heaven too? If he can defeat god on earth, why wouldnt he be able to do it in heaven?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • dale

      Satan was the most beautiful angel, he was an arch angel like michael, and he turned around and told God to worship Him, and it resulted in a major war. and I dont know why. those questions about why? are tough. and I am not an expert, what matters to me is the fact that the Holy Spirit testifies of Himself. and yes , there is another sense, that you dont believe in yet. faith is a gift, given through the inspiration and power of the Holy Spirit. it isnt a "requirement" its not like that. until you have it, you are spiritually blind and deaf.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      "Satan was the most beautiful angel, he was an arch angel like michael, and he turned around and told God to worship Him, and it resulted in a major war. and I dont know why." So you dont know

      "those questions about why? are tough. and I am not an expert, what matters to me is the fact that the Holy Spirit testifies of Himself. and yes , there is another sense, that you dont believe in yet." So you dont know

      "faith is a gift, given through the inspiration and power of the Holy Spirit. it isnt a "requirement" its not like that. until you have it, you are spiritually blind and deaf." But when it comes to threatening others, you all of a sudden know why!

      January 22, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Bet

      When jesus departed he said "I go to prepare a place for you", He is preparing heaven, and another reason we wait for this promise is because souls are presently being called into the eternal kingdom.

      What is he doing, setting the tables and arranging flowers? Doesn't he have angels to do the grunt work for him?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      "Satan was the most beautiful angel, he was an arch angel like michael, and he turned around and told God to worship Him, and it resulted in a major war"

      Satan, putting god in his place like the little #$%* he is, since the beginning of time.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Dale you believe

      Your god is all powerfull

      Satan exists

      Therefore your god allows Satan to exist AND allows him to do the things he does. Your god is the sourse of any power Satan has.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @Bet

      "What is he doing, setting the tables and arranging flowers? Doesn't he have angels to do the grunt work for him?"

      Funniest thing I've read all morning.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • dale

      ok Bet, my guess is that the priests are not even saved, that their religious appearance is just a religious job. but king david, a prolific man had uriah killed to steal his wife. we know that men will continue to sin. this includes everyone. you have to discern which ministry is good. there are many sham teachers, churches, "prophets". many different denominations. none of them can represent Jesus, or the bible. within many churches are many AUTHENTIC christians. those arent the ones on the front page of the paper. its like the airplane that crash, do they report all the successful flights?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • dale

      no one is condemned, or damned. no one is being threatened. you are all justified.

      why was satan allowed dominion on earth? where we are? as sin and death reigned, our sin was buried with christ in His death, and we will be glorified with him through his resurrection. we no longer die, we are baptised by the Holy spirit and raised from spiritual death into everlasting spiritual life. and the reality of that glofiries us all as sons and daughters of and eternal loving redeeming God. Glory to God

      January 22, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
    • Bet

      ok Bet, my guess is that the priests are not even saved, that their religious appearance is just a religious job.

      Everything you have said so far is a guess.

      There is no proof that a person called King David existed and did all the things "reported" in the Books of Samuel, 1 Kings, and 1 Chronicles. There is some evidence that a royal dynasty called the "house of David" existed, but claims someone named David having a personal relationship with a god or the royal lineage of Jeebus is pure myth.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Dale,

      It makes no difference why Satan was given dominion in your dogma. The choice of your god to do that was immoral. Your god watches while children are r@ped and does nothing about it other than to say "I will punish you later". That god is a monster.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Bandini

      dale,

      I wish I had time to regale you with the tales of the World of Lawn Fairies that are in my yard. Oooh, the battles, failures and triumphs that go on under there are simply amazing. The good fairies try so hard to push up those nice green blades of grass, but are constantly besieged by the little evil ones. The Holy Sprite guides me in witnessing them; and it is truly a world of wonder! BeLeave in garden fairies. They feed the world with their crop managing.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • dale

      well , i never really heard anyone seriously contest the king david, because his son solomon built the temple in Jerusalem, and david wrote alot of the psalms, so bet, i will just pray for you and my friend who is angry at Gods plan. I can understand. i wish i could do more.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Dale,

      You are confusing being angry with god's plan with the realization that the story is bunk.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • OTOH

      dale,
      "david wrote alot of the psalms,"

      No-one knows who actually wrote those psalms. Many are attributed to King David; but as a king, he would have had writers in his court who contributed these verses - like the speechwriters of modern presidents.

      January 22, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • hot ta tas

      @dale

      Is jesus preparing a new heaven and a new earth according to Revelation 21:1?
      If jesus is preparing a new heaven and a new earth, what happens to the people/souls/spirits of the old heaven, old earth, and old hell?
      If jesus is preparing heaven, wouldn't heaven and earth pass away according to Matthew 24:35 & Luke 21:33? "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
      Wouldn't hell pass away with heaven and earth?

      January 22, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Bet

      well , i never really heard anyone seriously contest the king david, because his son solomon built the temple in Jerusalem, and david wrote alot of the psalms,

      Really? A cursory google search will show that there is no archeological evidence of the existence of David or Solomon, nor is there evidence that David authored the psalms of the bible.

      so bet, i will just pray for you and my friend who is angry at Gods plan. I can understand. i wish i could do more.

      Stating that one does not believe in your god does not equate to anger.

      BTW, you still haven't answered my question. Why are church members good examples of "representing the holy spirit" when they agree with you, but bad examples when they don't?

      January 22, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
  4. John

    The longer one lives the less one knows. This is the gift of life.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      John.
      Is that supposed to make sense?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • The Truth

      The longer one lives watching Fox News, the less one knows. This is the gift of cable.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • Roger that

      The Truth,

      very nice

      January 22, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • fintastic

      There once was a man from Nantucket......

      January 22, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
  5. John

    Pride in one's beliefs is nothing but foolish pride.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:57 am |
  6. Rebecca

    Atheists are always saying that the God they don't believe in is cruel, vain, etc.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • lamb of dog

      If he did exist the God of the old testament was a mean mofo.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:59 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      That's funny, your bible says the same thing.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Rebecca,

      It is a way to try and show you believers that the "loving" god you believe in really isn't loving at all. It is a contradiction. We are refering to the character "god". It is like talking about the traits of a movie villan, the character doesn't exist but we talk about him as if he did.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      That's right Rebecca, we say those things to point out that this cruel, (yet somehow loving) god character is contradictory, and thereby more likely invented than real.

      Christians can't imagine someone not believing in a god, and thereby mistake our mere discussion of the fantasy as evidence of belief, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      You might have confused her.
      It's like telling your kids about the boggieman. You know he doesn't exist but your kids don't. So you use him to scare your kids into being obedient.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • Saraswati

      @lamb, and nothing you say to your kids about the bogieman makes a difference, because they just *know* he exists.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Okay, I'll put it this way:

      I think Bart Simpson is an undisciplined brat. That doesn't mean I believe Bart Simpson is real.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Comic book readers are always complaining how evil the Joker is. Does that make the Joker real?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • Roger that

      I'm saying that the god of the Bible is evil. Read it sometime and see for yourself.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
  7. John

    It is best to be humble in all things because as the wise know everything changes.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:55 am |
  8. Rebecca

    My parents don't cease to exist just because I don't like the unfair rules they place on me.
    God is what he his.
    You can stomp your feet, throw a tantrum, and pout about his nature all you want, but it's not going to change it.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • I wonder

      Rebecca,

      And just what is 'his' nature? And how do you know what it is?

      January 22, 2013 at 11:55 am |
    • lamb of dog

      God does cease to exist as soon as you stop believing in the made up man in the sky.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • james

      keep up the good work rebecca

      January 22, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Saraswati

      It's not about the author disliking the rules, but about those rules not being consistent with the supposed nature of god. And all the Christians have to offer in return is that it's a mystery and god knows what he's doing.

      Personally to me the Christian reliance on the outdated notion of free will is the biggest proble, but the authors points are valid as well.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      I am what I am and that's all that I am. Is god Popeye the sailor man?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      How do you know god's intent? There is so much inconsistency in religious adherence to a god – you know its will when it comes to the after-life but you don't when it comes to explaining its inaction – preventing massacres, disease, etc.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      I believe that my parents exist because I've seen them. I don't believe that your god exists, and I didn't cause the creature to not exist just by complaining about how men have painted him.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • Roger that

      Rebecca,

      Perhaps you should move to North Korea so you can get an idea what it will be like to live with an evil dictator. You'll be better prepared than the others going to heaven.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Conversely, stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum about people not believing in your god, does not cause your god to exist.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
  9. lol??

    A&A's have a god known as the "wegod". It's found in mobs everywhere. Ever try and reason with a mob? You will get rolled over by those unholy rollers. Exhibit #1: Sodom and Gomorrah. Demobocracy at its worst. They use "we" a lot and are actually quite dependent. Pun intended.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "lol??", but "Sodom and Gomorrah" are elements of mythology, therefore your assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 22, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • james

      hal? why, because you said so or are parroting another who said so? I will parrot Jesus who said Sodom & Gomorrah were real and a warning to all of us. now I am sure I will hear it but, show me.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • katie

      There is a difference between saying something is not true and that something is unfounded. I don't think James knows the difference.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • james

      katie, I know so much more than you can imagine. if you are serious I will share but i fear you are here like so many others, to criticize and make fun of.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • lamb of dog

      James is an expert on fairy tales. If only you would listen.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
    • OTOH

      james,
      " I will parrot Jesus who said..."

      Trouble is - you only have hearsay about what Jesus might have said (and actually only hearsay about his existence at all). If you are parrotting anyone, it is the claims and fantasies of a group of first century zealots.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
    • james

      otoh, and who do you listen to and follow? I will follow my personal experience along with much study to gain accurate knowledge of the scriptures. not like the priests and pastors of this world's religions teach, and I will take the abuse from those who have not learned what the bible really teaches. when someone came to me with this much conviction I looked into it very deeply despite the ridicule and found what I firmly believe is the ultimate truth. now you may make your comments or maybe just check it out, but millions have done likewise, listened, studied and learned and no one is encouraged or allowed to just accept blindly before becoming a true Christian.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • OTOH

      james,
      "accurate knowledge of the scriptures"

      So what? While there may be some real history of the ancient Hebrew culture in them and some useful morality tales (found in many other places, btw), there is not a shred of verified evidence that these old Middle Eastern fantasies and superst-tions are true.

      January 22, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
    • james

      otoh; when you understand the whole story it makes it so easy to see how it is not a myth but truth. The one who used men to put down in text his thoughts and directions for man in his now imperfect condition will make it known to all soon. The prophet Ezekiel was just one of many who made it clear that the nations will know. Many other men were used to share these and other instructions for our continued existence after God has to clean up this mess we have created. see Rev.11:18 for a little encouragement. Psalms ch. 37 will also help explain the hope.

      January 22, 2013 at 6:54 pm |
  10. E.B.

    Hummm.....why don't all of you who are bashing this mom for her blog to read todays LA Times article releasing more information through a court order concerning pedophile clergy being sheltered by Archbishop Mahoney and his top advisor, Curry (who is currently in Santa Barbara, CA) who both plotted for years to conceal child molestation from police- great "God" huh?

    January 22, 2013 at 11:28 am |
    • dale

      incubus, sucubus go get a dictionary

      January 22, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • lol??

      Why is her girly man hubby approving her message?

      January 22, 2013 at 11:34 am |
    • dale

      what part did God have in the molestation? there again, taking the religious as a bad example doesnt bring Christ off the cross. he wasnt the commando of the crusades.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "dale", but "God", "Christ", "incubus", and "sucubus" are all elements of mythology, therefore your repeated assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 22, 2013 at 11:44 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Dale,

      The part of the christian god that requires "faith" for salvation and thereby gives clergy unquestioned authority and power where it is not deserved. It gives people the false impression that our children are absolutely safe with religious leaders. The occupation of preist, pastor, reverand is a pedophiles wet dream.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:45 am |
    • dale

      i dont defend demonic activity, and if you deny demonic activity you are blind to reality on the earth. you are missing a sense. you are a pawn. you probably someone who likes to talk more about mental illness than evil forces. there is only one cure for evil.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • Bet

      @ dale

      tallulah, if you want proof, you need to get to a church and talk with believers who can reveal all sorts of personal proof, or enrich youself with a whole hearted study of the bible.

      what part did God have in the molestation? there again, taking the religious as a bad example doesnt bring Christ off the cross. he wasnt the commando of the crusades.

      So in one argument, you tell tallulah to consult with members of your cult to get "proof" of their religious experiences, but in another argument, you state that the examples of your cult's members isn't a true depiction of your god. Typical fundies to put forward what supports their cause and to dismiss what is detrimental to their cause.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      And you are one sandwich short of a picnic Dale. I love you you claim your god and your gods enemy (who is really your gods best friend) interact in this world, but you can't demonstrat your cliam or verify it. So you make up a "sense" that has never been demonstrated to prove you can see what others can't. You are a clown.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      One sandwich short of a picnic!?! You are being very kind. The picnic basket is empty, just like his claims and evidence for his imaginary friends.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
  11. dale

    @ RegionalBS. yes exactly what i am saying is that your flesh hates the Lord. your mind , in its natural sinful form, is "a heart desperately wicked and deceitful" . in genesis , the reason for the flood, is that "mans thoughts had become only evil continually" and things are no different today. even christians are helpless .

    January 22, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Mental health professionals should be able to help you with your delusions and self-hatred, and to get you out of your god/jesus death cult.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      step one...lose the bible, it will make you feel like you are worthless.
      step two...seek some professional help to assist in bringing your self-esteem up to a normal level
      step three...enjoy your life free from myth

      January 22, 2013 at 11:28 am |
    • dale

      i understand my total depravity, and my Joy is in the Lord, and his Word which dwells richly in my soul. It is an honor to share the gospel with you all. I stand on the podium and testify, that the Holy Spirit has confirmed itself within me and I am called to proclaim the resurrection of Jesus. we are redeemed.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:34 am |
    • Roger that

      Your god created humans with "natural" sin and that god will then torture those humans in the worse possible way for an eternity for simply not believing some 2,000 year old book full of contradictory information. We don'r treat our worst offenders that way because it would be immoral and inhumane and we are more civilized than that. The level of evil your god is capable of is incomprehensible.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "dale", but "Lord", and "Holy Spirit" are elements of mythology, therefore your repeated assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 22, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      You still didnt answer my question. Why would god make us with flesh that hates him?

      January 22, 2013 at 11:41 am |
    • Saraswati

      @Roger that,

      Very well said.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:43 am |
    • dale

      no he didnt make us that way regional. but the effects of sin were so devistating , now death reigns in our mortal bodies, and immediately cain murdered Abel.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Oh, so you're saying that the devil is more powerful than god. THanks for clearing that up.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
  12. Daniel

    Sophists, those superficial manipulators of rhetoric and dialectic, get a few chuckles by criticizing and ridiculing from the side lines. Whoop dee doo. It doesn't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:21 am |
  13. Daniel

    The existence of matter, including the atoms in your bodies, is evidence of a creator.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • Roger that

      We call them parents.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • lol??

      RT, yes they do practice procreation, not anticreation with abortion.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:17 am |
    • Tod

      Why?

      January 22, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Daniel
      You made the illogical jump from matter exists to god did it in one swift move.
      Unfortunatley the logic fail that accompanied it is much larger.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      The existence of lint in my bellybutton if proof my god can beat up your god.

      Just as valid

      January 22, 2013 at 11:54 am |
  14. lol??

    Cain was "into" vegetables. HHHHhhhhmmmmm.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:07 am |
  15. ReligionIsBS

    You know why god doesnt just defeat the devil and end this silly game? The same reason a super hero never kills its vilian. Because then there would be no story. No reason to be scared. And no reason for you to give your money away to lazy preachers who would rather not get a real job.

    January 22, 2013 at 11:05 am |
    • lol??

      Ignorant rants, typical of antichrists.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • Tod

      The whole story of when Jesus supposedly returns to rule over the earth basically ends with "And they lived happily ever after." That's how you can tell when something's a fairy tale, right?

      January 22, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • Saraswati

      Clergy have one of the highest job satisfaction ratings. Great gig if you can get it.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      How was that ignorant or a rant? Prove me wrong, or what you just said was an ignorant rant. Calling someones post an ignorant rant, and stating nothing further and not giving any explanation, is the definition of an ignorant rant. As far as antichrist, I take that as a compliment.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • dale

      The beautiful thing is Regional BS is as much as you resent it, and as much as you hate the idea of the trinity, that nothing you could do would seperate you from the love of God. you can say one thing today , and still be forgiven .

      January 22, 2013 at 11:18 am |
    • lol??

      BS, vegetables are perfectly content to wait for the cooker.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      And sheep are perfectly content to follow the herd. Whats your point? I dont think you have one, do you?

      January 22, 2013 at 11:39 am |
  16. lol??

    story:"...........Mitchell was raised Catholic............." A vegetable coming out of the Original Gubmint church? What could possibly go wrong there??

    January 22, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • shawn

      What a troll.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:07 am |
    • lol??

      shawn, sticks and stones may break my bones but the A&A's will always try and kill ye.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:11 am |
    • katie

      See what I mean, Shawn? It's best just to ignore him. He never supports his rants anyway.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:16 am |
    • fintastic

      LOL?? = troll = ignore

      January 22, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
  17. ReligionIsBS

    Christians,

    So let me get this straight. God created 2 human beings that didnt know what right and wrong was, because he never told them. THen, he tells them not to eat a piece of fruit, for no apparent reason, other than setting the stage for this story. THen a talking snake convinces the woman to eat the fruit, so she does. This sin apparently is passed on to all of us and we are all born spiritually deformed. So instead of just forgiving us, which even all human beings are capable of, but god isnt capable of this, so he must send himself down to earth to sacrafice himself to himself, so we can be forgiven, instead of just forgiving us in the first place. How do you not feel insane for believing that? I do not beleive in any gods, however, im open to the idea. And if I do ever beleive in a god, it wont be that pathetic version of one. It would be a beleif in a god who is capable of doing things that humans can do (forgive). It sounds to me like you all have very low expectations of what a god is.

    January 22, 2013 at 10:50 am |
    • Damocles

      I'm always tickled when believers are the first to hamstring their supposedly all powerful deity with a list of things it can't do.

      January 22, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • dale

      been through all the emotions and hatred for what seemed insane and sick and unforgiving. and then the revelation of spiritual reality set in. you start experiencing and invisible force. and the truth is, everyone has been forgiven and justifies. there are people who choose not to be. because the "whole story" doesnt appeal to your flesh. the sin is in your flesh. our flesh hates god and righteousness. God is a Holy God. and His glory is being revealed within us. keep struggling. ask for help from the only one who can. it seemes wierd, but approach it as something you have no idea what to do.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:08 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Dale, I think your keyboard just threw up under my original post! What are you even trying to say? Our flesh hates the lord? Didnt the lord create us? Why would he create us to hate him? More christian logic!

      January 22, 2013 at 11:16 am |
  18. Godless mom strikes a chord with non-believers

    surprising? Not!

    January 22, 2013 at 10:46 am |
  19. dale

    You all could find someone, who hated and persecuted christian's like I did. then my eyes were opened up to the devil, and demonic activity, then the started reading scripture seriously because I knew because of the evil , that it had to be true,. then the Holy Spirit began revealing the truth to me through the word in miraculous ways. Unbelievable power of the genius sovereign Holy Spirit. I have all respect and patience for anyone who hates "christianity" , but truth be know you underestimate the glory of Jesus.

    January 22, 2013 at 10:43 am |
    • tallulah13

      I was raised in a christian town. Many of my friends and family are christian. I bear no ill will towards people who choose to believe something I do not (unless they use that faith as an excuse to harm or discriminate against others). However, as there is not a shred of evidence to support the existence of any god, and indeed quite a bit that shows that no god is needed, I just don't have it in me to believe in something that is tantamount to a fairy tale.

      January 22, 2013 at 10:47 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "dale", but the "Holy Spirit" is an element of mythology, therefore your repeated assertions are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 22, 2013 at 10:49 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      Sorry, but you do not have some special power that the rest of us do not. You do not communicate with an invisible being. You may beleive you do, but in reality, you do not.

      January 22, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • dale

      All things were made through Him hal (gospel of John), and the angels who fell came down here are tried to pollute what the knew the messiah would do, so any of this borrowed myth stuff, is an act of the fallen angels civilizing earth before christ came. no more myth borrowing garbage. tallulah, if you want proof, you need to get to a church and talk with believers who can reveal all sorts of personal proof, or enrich youself with a whole hearted study of the bible. if you dont, maybe you prevent the baptism of the Holy spirit from revealing the truth because of unbelief.

      January 22, 2013 at 10:55 am |
    • lol??

      "tallulah13 sayz,
      I was raised......................" Let me guess. A vegetable?

      January 22, 2013 at 10:55 am |
    • shawn

      I see circular logic by dale. And this lol?? nut chirps, but never seems to support any of it's rants.

      January 22, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • tallulah13

      I'm sorry the other gamers won't let you play online with them anymore, Lol. It must be lonely in your mom's basement. Maybe if you apologize and promise not to act like a complete jerk anymore, they'll take you back. It couldn't hurt to try. Then you wouldn't have to annoy people on opinion blogs just for attention.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:03 am |
    • ReligionIsBS

      You know why god doesnt just defeat the devil and end this silly game? The same reason a super hero never kills its vilian. Because then there would be no story. No reason to be scared. And no reason for you to give your money away to lazy preachers who would rather not get a real job.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • katie

      Yes shawn. Iol?? is a troll. He seems to have a problem with women I've noticed.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • tallulah13

      dale, emotional experiences are not proof of god. Every true believer of every one of the thousands of gods ever worshiped could tell you of a personal of experience that proves to them their god is real. Emotional experiences are simply proof that humans are emotional beings.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:06 am |
    • Saraswati

      I've been interested for a while in the psychological theories on this king of trolling. It looks like borderline personality is the most common theory. The problem is the online community can't really do anything to get these people help, and their families probably don't know what they're up to. These folks have a hard time making friendships, so how do we get them help?

      January 22, 2013 at 11:08 am |
    • lol??

      Saraswati, you can always fall back to the ol' standby cure, exile to Siberia, you sicksually confused socie.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • tallulah13

      I think that there's no easy fix, Sara. I wonder how many of them end up homeless and on the street?

      January 22, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • lol??

      "tallulah13 sayz,
      ................. I wonder how many of them end up homeless and on the street?"...........Lookie there folks, liberal love from the commies, lookin' down at their "clients". Ain't gubbermint love wunnerful?

      January 22, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
  20. troutdude

    It would seem to me that if religion is a personal artifact to be left at home, then atheism is really the same thing. Thus, by going public with this, a remarkable inconsistency is shown. By insisting that public life be non-religious, a religious presupposition is being imposed on the culture.

    January 22, 2013 at 10:41 am |
    • dale

      any big fish lately?

      January 22, 2013 at 10:46 am |
    • Saraswati

      There's a big difference between publishing a personal opinion on the website of a privately owned company which people can visit or not and making a long religious prayer in a tax funded stadium of captive school children.

      January 22, 2013 at 10:46 am |
    • tallulah13

      There are some religious people who want our legal and school systems to be informed by their faith. In our recent Presidential election, the candidates were questioned constantly about their faith. Indeed, some politicians and pundits have flat-out lied about President Obama's religion, in an effort to outrage the more religious voters.

      On much smaller, personal scale, I pass by street preachers almost every day, I get religious flyers left at my door, religious content is rife in the media, jocks make a big show of thanking god for victories, signs along the street condemn me for not believing as you do, people knock on my door to share their "good news"... the list goes on, and while I put up with it, it's not welcome.

      These are just some of the reasons why it would be nice if christians would leave their faith in their homes and their churches. This is a secular nation, where we are guaranteed the right to worship or not worship as we choose, therefore this constant christian blitz is presumptuous and self-serving. Does this help clarify?

      January 22, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • Saraswati

      @tallulah, Have you ever had these little comic books left on your mailbox?

      http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0099/0099_01.asp

      That's a link to the Party Girl one I got, but here's the active English collection:

      http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

      These tracts provided my neighborhood with days of entertainment as we tried to figure out if they were assigned randomly or if the distributors tried to give specific people certain messages. I actually felt a bit bad laughing so hard because the people who put them out did so much work putting each on in a little bag with a little string, but they are hysterical. I wouldn't pay for them, but if anyone ever leaves you one do read it...and then collect the others from your neighbors. Funny stuff.

      January 22, 2013 at 11:26 am |
    • tallulah13

      @sara

      There was this guy who used to hand those out on a street corner near where I worked! One of my friends, a gay young man, would always take them with a laugh and gush about how funny they were.

      January 22, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.