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Godless mom strikes a chord with parents
A CNN iReport essay on raising kids without God draws record-breaking number of comments.
January 18th, 2013
06:32 PM ET

Godless mom strikes a chord with parents

By Daphne Sashin, CNN

Deborah Mitchell remembers the time, when her boys were younger, and another mom asked her about her religious beliefs.

Mitchell was raised Catholic but moved away from religion in her early 20s. She told the other mother that she didn’t go to church and didn’t even really believe in God.

Then, she says, the recruiting started.

“She used to call my house and tell me she was praying for me. She’d leave me messages and leave cards in my mailbox with scripture,” Mitchell says. “I do realize that she meant well, but at the same time, I know my views were seen as wrong. I needed to be ‘saved.’”

Mitchell, a mother of two teenagers in Texas who feels “immersed in Christianity,” started a blog about raising her children without religion because she felt frustrated and marginalized. She didn’t want to feel so alone, she says.

This week, she gained a whole new audience and the reassurance that she's not alone. Her essay on CNN iReport, “Why I Raise My Children Without God,” drew 650,000 page views, the second highest for an iReport, and the most comments of any submission on the citizen journalism platform.

It starts:

When my son was around 3 years old, he used to ask me a lot of questions about heaven. Where is it? How do people walk without a body? How will I find you? You know the questions that kids ask.

For over a year, I lied to him and made up stories that I didn’t believe about heaven. Like most parents, I love my child so much that I didn’t want him to be scared. I wanted him to feel safe and loved and full of hope. But the trade-off was that I would have to make stuff up, and I would have to brainwash him into believing stories that didn’t make sense, stories that I didn’t believe either.

Mitchell posted the essay detailing her seven reasons for raising her children without God on CNN iReport because she felt there wasn’t anyone else speaking for women or moms like her. As she sees it, children should learn to do the right things because they will feel better about themselves, not because God is watching. She asks questions like: If there was a good, all-knowing, all-powerful God, why would he allow murders, child abuse and torture?

Lots of people disagreed with her. Tons. They flagged her iReport as inappropriate and criticized CNN for linking to her essay on the CNN.com homepage. But there were plenty of others who wrote thoughtful rebuttals, respectfully disagreeing with Mitchell while not foisting their own beliefs on her. Take, for instance, a Methodist dad, who said faith can be hard to nail down, but “not to avail ourselves of the power of something we don't completely understand is silly.”

Others said Mitchell presented a simplistic view of religion.

“Presentations such as these seem to ignore a substantial percentage of believers - well-educated, compassionate, liberal folk, Christian and non-Christian alike - who, I feel, are able to worship without being blind to the realities of the world, or without lying to their children about their understanding of these complexities,” wrote commenter RMooradian. “I'll be raising my children with God, but I understand those who cannot!”

But Mitchell’s essay also struck a chord with hundreds of like-minded parents raising children in a world where lack of belief puts them in the minority, often even in their own family.

“Thank you for writing this. I agree with everything you say, but I’m not brave enough to tell everyone I know this is how I feel,” a woman who called herself an “agnostic mommy of two in Alabama” posted in the comments. “Thank you for your bravery and letting me know I’m not alone.”

It’s a growing group. One in five Americans is not affiliated with any religion, and that number has grown by 25% in the past five years, according to a survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. Of that group, 88% said they were not looking for religion, although 68% of the unaffiliated said they believe in God. 

Brittany Branyon, an American graduate student and substitute teacher living in Germany, was also compelled to express her thanks to Mitchell. Branyon was raised Southern Baptist in Georgia and Alabama. In high school, when she began to question the theory of creation and befriended gay and lesbian students, she says her mother tried to perform an exorcism.

“She opened all the windows and doors in the house, brought me to the door, held my shoulders and shook me while screaming, ‘Satan, get out of this child!’, ‘Satan, leave this child alone!’.”

After moving away from the South, she and her husband “became more comfortable in our secular ways,” but still take criticism from family members. They are now expecting their first child.

“Though we are elated to welcome our child into the world, we can’t help but dread the religious uproar that is to come from our families,” she wrote in an e-mail.

Such an uproar is familiar to Carol Phillips, a stay-at-home mother in northern Virginia. When she gave birth to her first child, she said her family was shocked that the baby wasn’t baptized. She said her mother-in-law cried and told her the little girl’s soul would not go to heaven.

Then there are the comments from strangers. Last year, Phillips said she and her daughter were at a birthday party when a tornado warning sounded.

“We were all in the basement keeping safe. A little girl was saying baby Jesus will keep us safe. My daughter asked who Jesus was. The rest of the time was spent hearing ‘I'll pray for you sweetie, we can take you to church with us if you want,’” Phillips told CNN.

Commenting on Mitchell’s iReport, Phillips said, “To live out loud and to speak freely about my beliefs brings many clucking tongues. I would think it’s easier to come out as gay than atheist.”

Mitchell said she spent years studying the history of religion and does believe it has “an important place in our community.” She has told her children that she’ll be fine if they decide to join a church when they are older.

She ended her essay:

I understand why people need God. I understand why people need heaven. It is terrifying to think that we are all alone in this universe, that one day we—along with the children we love so much—will cease to exist. The idea of God and an afterlife gives many of us structure, community and hope.

I do not want religion to go away. I only want religion to be kept at home or in church where it belongs. It’s a personal effect, like a toothbrush or a pair of shoes. It’s not something to be used or worn by strangers. I want my children to be free not to believe and to know that our schools and our government will make decisions based on what is logical, just and fair—not on what they believe an imaginary God wants.

After her post ran on CNN, Mitchell said she was encouraged by the number of people who agreed with her, or who disagreed but wanted to have a respectful discussion.

“I’m not saying that everybody should think how I do. I’m saying the people that do should have a place in our society and have acceptance and respect,” she said. “I just want to have children grow up and be able to not be afraid to say ‘I don’t believe that,’ or ‘I’m not part of that.’” 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief • Christianity • iReport

soundoff (15,081 Responses)
  1. dale

    the last two times there were 4 consecutive blood moons in the gregorian c alendar was 1948, and 1967. israel reinstated itself in 48, and 6 days war in 67. the next time that happens is 2014-15 the blood moon is linked to the return of christ, and 2014 is a sabbatical year.

    February 1, 2013 at 8:49 pm |
    • End Religion

      dale, you're a fucking medieval superstitious batshit crazy clodhopper. Have a nice day!

      February 1, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Don't walk under any ladders and do avoid those black cats.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
  2. Vee

    I can not believe the ignorance I am reading, how in the world do think you and your kids got here, do you think man created the sun,the moon and the stars, I am not trying to be mean, I just don't understand what you believe or don't believe, just please buy a Bible and read it ,not just for you,but for your kids too,grabe some John MacArthur books also for some real understanding. May God still continue to bless you and your family.

    February 1, 2013 at 8:35 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Vee

      Do you even realize the level of condescending crap you just spewed out in your fervor to flaunt your self-righteous view?

      February 1, 2013 at 8:38 pm |
    • End Religion

      @vee: hint... your god didn't do it with magic spells!

      February 1, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • Bob

      Vee, seriously, maybe you should take a closer look at your bible yourself. According to what it has your god demanding, he'd be quite the ass hole:
      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.

      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      February 1, 2013 at 9:57 pm |
  3. Science

    Stuck in a cave. the arm of humans not god(s)
    Check your god(S) at the cave enterance before entering.. No god(s) required for studying humans..

    updated 1 hour 55 minutes ago
    Jan. 29 2013

    Scientists have unearthed and dated some of the oldest stone hand axes on Earth. The ancient tools, unearthed in Ethiopia in the last two decades, date to 1.75 million years ago.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50620121/ns/technology_and_science-science/

    Ancient DNA reveals humans living 40,000 years ago in Beijing area related to present-day Asians, Native Americans January 21, 2013

    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-ancient-dna-reveals-humans-years.html#jCp

    February 1, 2013 at 6:00 am |
    • ..

      sciennce, those are a bunch of tools on that website. they look just like native american arrowheads. Again, I have too many things to do right now. However, the strongest positions in my opinion have to do with observable evidences for rapid geologic processes of all kinds. Rapid rock formation, rapid deposition of sedimentary layering with fine lamina, cross bedded sandstones as evidence of rapidly deposition of sedimentary layers. Rapid decay of the earth's magnetic field. Rapid growth of forests, evidences that they are young, as well as the rapid growth of population evidences that the earth is young, or at least the time since humans were created. Rapid petrification, rapid erosion and depositinal processes There are many more, this is just a smattering.

      As I said before, the CMI web site http://creation.com/ is the best for YEC, even though at times they can be a bit fervent in their promotion/selling of products to fincance the organization.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • ..

      accelleration of radioactive decay rates! there was a group of scientists on the website that posted a bunch of various results from different dinosaurs that dated at 20-40 thousand years old. the only point of talking about this, bearing in mind that the catholic church teaches that God is involved in evolution, is that there is no science that should lead you to the deception that you dont have a soul.

      Romans 8:37-39 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

      1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him

      Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

      Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:03 am |
    • End Religion

      all YEC claims debunked: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

      February 1, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
    • Science

      Martian Clay Contains Chemical Implicated in the Origin of Life,

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610220132.htm

      Meteorites and water. made us aye.

      Oops and that carbon – 14 + (U-Pb).............uranium lead dating Austin.

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/06/hear-what-valedictorian-said-for-cheers/#comments

      Better check out that little blue box Austin.

      June 11, 2013 at 8:36 am |
  4. ok

    Principles to Be Learned From the Sin Offering
    It stands to reason that the Sin Offering should teach us something about sin. There are several important principles to learn which relate to sin which are evident in the texts pertaining to the sin offering.

    (1) Sin is that which God defines as evil. Sin is that which is inconsistent with the righteousness of God. Thus, it is only God, who alone is righteous, who can define sin. Leviticus informs us that sin is that which is contrary to God’s revealed Word: “Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘If a person sins unintentionally in any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and commits any of them” (Lev. 4:2, emphasis mine). Sin is whatever God declares to be evil. There are some “sins” which nearly any culture recognizes as sin, and which are thus forbidden. Stealing, lying, and murder, for example, are almost universally defined as evils. These “sins” are also “crimes.” But there are a number of sins which are not crimes. In fact there are a number of sins (by God’s definition) which are considered beneficial by society. Self-seeking, for example, is considered a positive thing. There are other attatudes or actions which, if not commended, are at least accepted with charity (sodomy).

    It is evident that our culture is not particularly interested in what God calls sin. So long as it is legal, it is possible. Sometimes even what isn’t legal (e.g. smoking pt or cheating on income tax) is socially acceptable. Those who are incarcerated in prison are not necessarily more sinful, but have erred by offending society’s standard of what is acceptable (crimes involving the money of others are especially detested).

    I find that a number of the “sins” which are enumerated in the Pentateuch are not really those things which men might consider evil. Eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for example, seemed wise. God’s prohibition seemed unduly harsh, as Satan portrayed it.

    Some have tried to show a good reason for every prohibition. For example, they would try to demonstrate that the “unclean” foods of the Bible were those which would be detrimental to a society which had no refrigeration, or whatever. I think this misses the point. Sin is whatever God says is sin, whether or not we have a good explanation for why it is evil. Obedience is best evidenced by our willingness to do something which we would rather not do, for reasons we don’t understand, simply because God says so. Some sins of the Old Testament are arbitrary, in my opinion, and purposefully so, to teach the people of God to trust and to obey a God whose thoughts are higher than the thoughts of men.

    (2) Sin may be either ignorant or willful; active or passive. The guilt which the Sin Offering atones for is that from a sin which was unintentional and unknown at the moment the sin was committed. This means that we can sin even when we don’t intend to. Our culture tends to condemn only those sins which are intentional. God condemns all sin. Indeed, there is no provision made in the law for intentional sin. The kind of sin for which the Sin Offering is applicable is that which was unintentional.

    We may console ourselves that we are not guilty because we did not mean to hurt another. If, however, our negligence has caused injury to another, we are guilty. If we fail to do what we should have done, we have sinned. Though we may not have intended to hurt a loved one by a harsh word, we have nevertheless done them harm. Sins of inaction or of ignorance are sins. God says so.

    Let me get very practical for a moment. We have made a great deal of the “strong-willed child.” To us, there is nothing more offensive than a child who bows his neck, looks us in the eye, and defies us. I agree, this is sin, and it is offensive to me. But we often fail to recognize that sin also has its passive form. Is the child who says, “No!” any more sinful than the child who says he will obey, only to fail to do so? Is the child who resists to get his way any more sinful than the child who gives in, only to get what he wants? God’s Word informs us that passive sin is sin, that sins of inaction are sins, too, that ignorance is no excuse for wrong-doing.

    (3) Sin results in defilement. Repeatedly in the Old Testament we find that sin brings defilement, not only to the sinner, but to others, and this even includes places.55 After a list of prohibitions, God said to the Israelites,

    ‘Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled. For the land has become defiled, therefore I have spewed out its inhabitants … Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God’ (Lev. 18:24-25, 30).

    “And I brought you into the fruitful land, To eat its fruit and its good things. But you came and defiled My land, And My inheritance you made an abomination” (Jer. 2:7).

    Furthermore, all the officials of the priests and the people were very unfaithful following all the abominations of the nations; and they defiled the house of the LORD which He had sanctified in Jerusalem (2 Chron. 36:14).

    It is most enlightening to take note of those sins which Israel committed which were said to defile the people, the land, and even the dwelling place of God:

    Sxual immorality (Lev. 18:24-30)
    Bloodshed (Num. 35:29-34)
    Occult practices (Lev. 19:31; 20:6)
    Infant sacrifice (Lev. 20:1-5)
    Divorce (Jer. 3:1)
    False worship (Jer. 16:18)

    Most of these defiling sins are summed up in the Book of Ezekiel:

    “For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. Thus they have committed adultery with their idols and even caused their sons, whom they bore to Me, to pass through the fire to them as food. Again, they have done this to Me: they have defiled My sanctuary on the same day and have profaned My sabbaths” (Ezek. 23:37-38).

    (4) Sin is exceedingly costly. A number of years ago our family went to Six Flags with another family from the church. As we sat there watching the rides I turned to my friend and said, “Now here is a beautiful illustration of sin: the price is high and the ride is short.” That is just how it is with sin. When you think of what it would cost an Israelite who wished to maintain his walk with God, it would have been a religion almost too costly to be able to afford. No wonder God promised to prosper this people greatly!

    (5) The only solution for the guilt of sin is blood atonement. In chapter 4 there is a sequence of terms which are repeated. In essence, the sequence is as follows:

    There is sin, resulting in guilt.
    There is a blood sacrifice, resulting in atonement and forgiveness.

    If sin defiles, blood that is shed in accordance with God’s commandments purifies and sanctifies. Thus, it was through the sprinkling of shed blood that the tabernacle, all of its furnishings, and the priests were purified (cf. Lev. 8). The Sin Offering was holy, and what it touched was also made holy: “‘Anyone who touches its flesh shall become consecrated; and when any of its blood splashes on a garment, in a holy place you shall wash what was splashed on’” (Lev. 6:27).

    I agree with those who hold that the principle function of the Sin Offering was to purify those people and things which were defiled by sin.56 Only by the shedding of innocent blood, in accordance with the instructions of God, could one’s sins be atoned for.

    This explains why only the blood and the fat of the Sin Offering were used, while the rest was disposed of. By using the blood and throwing away the rest of the animal, God was demonstrating in a very dramatic fashion that it was only the blood that atoned for Israel’s sin; only the blood cleansed the tabernacle, the priests, the people, and the land from the defilement caused by the sin of the people. In the words of the writer to the Hebrews, “… without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Heb. 9:22).

    (6) The death of Christ, who died once and for all, has made atonement for man’s sin, and assures him of forgiveness. The Old Testament prophecy of Isaiah in chapter 53 spoke of the Messiah, whose shed blood would atone for men’s sins:

    Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him (Isa. 53:4-6, cf. also vv. 7-8, 10-12).

    And so it was that when John the Baptist saw our Lord he proclaimed to the nation Israel, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). The Book of Hebrews demonstrates that the Lord Jesus Christ was the sinless Lamb of God, whose death was vastly superior to that of bulls and goats, thus making atonement for men, once for all:

    But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Heb. 9:11-14).

    With these words the apostle Peter agrees (cf. 1 Pet. 1:13-21). Jesus Christ is the Sin-bearer, who died once for all, that the wrath of a holy God might be appeased and that the defilement of sin might be cleansed. In the words of the hymn writer, “What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus.”

    Conclusion
    From these principles there are several immediate levels of application. The first pertains to the matter of your personal salvation.

    Do you see the value which God has assigned to the blood of an innocent victim, which is shed in place of the sinner? Have you come to personally accept the shed blood of Christ as God’s provision for your sins? The terms “salvation” and “born again” are all too frequently misunderstood because we use unbiblical terminology to define what they mean. We talk, for example, about “asking Jesus into your heart,” a totally unbiblical phrase, and one which completely ignores the shed blood of Christ.

    Liberal theologians, along with countless Americans, who are lost in their sins, want to retain certain things about Jesus, but choose to reject the most important part of His person and work. They want to honor Him as a humanitarian, a healer, a teacher and philosopher, a great example, but they do not want anything to do with His sacrificial death, His shed blood. By God’s definition this is taking the sack, but throwing out the lunch. The essence of Christ’s work for sinful man is the shedding of His blood. I urge you to trust in His blood for your salvation, for the cleansing from your sins.

    The teaching of Leviticus on the Sin Offering has something very important to say to the Christian about personal sanctification. Whenever we sin, we need to remember that it is the shed blood of Christ which God has provided for our forgiveness. Repentance and confession is the means for experiencing that forgiveness and cleansing on a daily basis.

    Knowing the high price which Christ has paid for our forgiveness should also cause us to take sin very seriously. Every sin, no matter how insignificant it may seem, required the blood of Christ to be shed. Let us never forget that while forgiveness is free, it was not obtained cheaply. Here is a motivation for godly living.

    Then, too, let us be reminded of the seriousness of sin. God takes sin very seriously. God takes unintentional sin more seriously than we take willful sin. And God takes willful sin even more seriously than we wish to think about:

    For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:26-29).

    I am not for a moment suggesting that Christians are not eternally saved and secure, but I am suggesting that the willful sin of a wayward saint is a very sobering matter, and one which will not allow that wayward believer to sense any safety and security in what he or she is doing. Let us learn from both the Old and the New Testament how much God hates sin.

    Finally, I must say to you that “ignorance is not bliss,” in spite of those who would have you think so. The Israelites were held accountable for the sins they committed ignorantly. Many contemporary Christians seem to think that if they don’t study their Bibles, if they don’t familiarize themselves with the standards and principles God has given in the Bible, they will not be responsible for their sins committed in ignorance. Not so! The Sin Offering strongly suggests that we had better become careful students of the revealed Word of God, for it is disobedience to His word that constatutes sin.

    January 31, 2013 at 7:58 pm |
    • austin

      53 Who has believed our message
      and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
      2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
      and like a root out of dry ground.
      He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
      nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
      3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
      a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
      Like one from whom people hide their faces
      he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
      4 Surely he took up our pain
      and bore our suffering,
      yet we considered him punished by God,
      stricken by him, and afflicted.
      5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
      he was crushed for our iniquities;
      the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
      and by his wounds we are healed.
      6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
      each of us has turned to our own way;
      and the Lord has laid on him
      the iniquity of us all.
      7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
      yet he did not open his mouth;
      he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
      and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
      so he did not open his mouth.
      8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
      Yet who of his generation protested?
      For he was cut off from the land of the living;
      for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
      9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
      and with the rich in his death,
      though he had done no violence,
      nor was any deceit in his mouth.
      10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
      and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
      he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
      and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
      11 After he has suffered,
      he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
      by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
      and he will bear their iniquities.
      12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
      and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
      because he poured out his life unto death,
      and was numbered with the transgressors.
      For he bore the sin of many,
      and made intercession for the transgressors.
      Footnotes:

      January 31, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
    • WASP

      @ok: so basically all this above, is just a long winded pile of cr/ap unless you were there to see any of these events.
      not to mention thinking you know what a god would consider "sin" seeing you have never met the "god" you bow to.

      sin is the creation of man to prevent certain actions the religious leaders didn't ant followers doing at that time. ie. females without berkas, eating shellfish, etc etc etc

      February 1, 2013 at 6:06 am |
    • Science

      No sin in numbers go figure. so there is no sin !!!

      February 1, 2013 at 7:11 am |
    • Bob

      ok, while you're blabbering about Leviticus, let's look at some of the fine stuff that's there and elsewhere in your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible, both testaments, from your nasty jerk of a god:

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.

      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      February 1, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Bob

      And as for the death of Jesus being any kind of sacrifice by god or Jesus, what a steaming pile of hooey.

      The whole premise of Christianity that the death of the son of god would have been any kind of "sacrifice" and was required to deal with "sin" is utter nonsense. This is a supposed omnipotent being that we are discussing. Christians, think this through a bit: how come your 'omnipotent' creature couldn't do all that supposed saving without the loony son sacrifice bit? And for that matter, how was it a sacrifice at all, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time it wants with less than a snap of its fingers? Pretty feeble god it is that you've made for yourself there.
      Give that some thought and maybe it will help you leave your delusions behind. You will remain a laughingstock otherwise, and the more you dwell in your silly delusion and ancient myths, instead of keeping up with advances in medicine and technology, the more America slips downward relative to the rest of the world in science and other fields.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.

      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      February 1, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • austin

      bob Isaiah 53, the long passage above was written in 700 bc and there are hundreds of messianic sacrifice prophecies in the old testament, the entire ot is a foreshadowing prophecy of Jesus Christ. Period.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
    • Just call me Lucifer

      Say all you want Mr. Sheep, but as with ALL GODS that have been created by men (certainly not women) there is no proof your god or ANY other god has existed. And like every other god, none of them have stepped up to claim the "one true god"
      trophy, even though, supposedly, it would be EXTREMELY easy fort ANY god to do so. Trust me... I'm the devil.

      February 1, 2013 at 3:14 pm |
    • Just call me Lucifer

      Say all you want Mr. Sheep, but as with ALL GODS that have been created by men (certainly not women) there is no proof your god or ANY other god has existed ever. And like every other god, none of them have stepped up to claim the "one true god" trophy, even though, supposedly, it would be EXTREMELY easy for ANY god to do so. Trust me... I'm the devil

      February 1, 2013 at 3:17 pm |
  5. Scott

    1 Cry aloud, aspare not, lift up thy bvoice like a ctrumpet, and dshew my people their etransgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

    2 Yet they aseek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the bordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

    3 ¶aWherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your bfast ye find cpleasure, and dexact all your labours.

    4 Behold, ye fast for astrife and bdebate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not cfast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

    5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?

    6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the abands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go bfree, and that ye break every yoke?

    7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the ahungry, and that thou bring the bpoor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from cthine own flesh?

    8 ¶Then shall thy alight break forth as the morning, and thine bhealth shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy crereward.

    9 Then shalt thou acall, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the bputting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

    10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the ahungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light brise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:

    11 And the Lord shall aguide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in bdrought, and cmake fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a dspring of water, whose waters fail not.

    12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

    13 ¶If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the asabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

    14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the ahigh places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

    January 31, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • Devoted Christian

      Do not puncture a loon
      Oh mouse-like mattress!
      The spleen shrieks.

      Our auctioneers rotate
      Just before the banshee strangles a turbot.
      The butterflies shout "Wow!"
      Terribly.

      False goats are vicious
      Though not really radioactive.
      My bugle-player stupidly
      Garottes the Viking warrior.

      Surely unsound gorillas read newspapers?
      A drenched turbot shrieks.
      My cliche-ridden banshee wobbles indefinitely
      Disguised as a lumpy passer-by.

      Never consult a weasel
      Oh ye auctioneers!
      Surely the anglers plague rubber ducks?

      Our turbot catches a train.
      Loofahs are plump.
      Oysters are bouncy.

      The scarlet policeman nocturnally pummels wicket-keepers.

      January 31, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • ok

      58 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
      Raise your voice like a trumpet.
      Declare to my people their rebellion
      and to the descendants of Jacob their sins.
      2 For day after day they seek me out;
      they seem eager to know my ways,
      as if they were a nation that does what is right
      and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
      They ask me for just decisions
      and seem eager for God to come near them.
      3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
      ‘and you have not seen it?
      Why have we humbled ourselves,
      and you have not noticed?’
      “Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
      and exploit all your workers.
      4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
      and in striking each other with wicked fists.
      You cannot fast as you do today
      and expect your voice to be heard on high.
      5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
      only a day for people to humble themselves?
      Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
      and for lying in sackcloth and ashes?
      Is that what you call a fast,
      a day acceptable to the Lord?
      6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
      to loose the chains of injustice
      and untie the cords of the yoke,
      to set the oppressed free
      and break every yoke?
      7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
      and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
      when you see the naked, to clothe them,
      and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
      8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
      and your healing will quickly appear;
      then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
      and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
      9 Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
      you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
      “If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
      with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
      10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
      and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
      then your light will rise in the darkness,
      and your night will become like the noonday.
      11 The Lord will guide you always;
      he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
      and will strengthen your frame.
      You will be like a well-watered garden,
      like a spring whose waters never fail.
      12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins
      and will raise up the age-old foundations;
      you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,
      Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.
      13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
      and from doing as you please on my holy day,
      if you call the Sabbath a delight
      and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
      and if you honor it by not going your own way
      and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
      14 then you will find your joy in the Lord,
      and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
      and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
      For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.

      January 31, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Scott & ok,

      This wouldn't happen to be the same LORD that prescribed a dead dove's blood anointing and fly-over to cure leprosy, would it?

      This wouldn't happen to be the same LORD that told the guys how to spot an unfaithful wife by having her drink some magic water and then to watch for her belly to swell and her thigh to rot, would it?

      This wouldn't happen to be the same LORD that ordered genocide and the killing of pregnant women and suckling children, would it?

      This wouldn't happen to be the same LORD that didn't know that Orion's belt really isn't a 'belt' when viewed from other spots out in space, would it?

      This wouldn't happen to be the same LORD that said that he kept snow and hail in little storehouses in the clouds, would it?

      I'm tired of typing, but there are many, many other instances in your old book that show that their LORD was no more educated or powerful than the primitive and ignorant Middle Eastern Hebrew men who fantasized about him.

      January 31, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
    • ok

      i will reply in 20 min

      January 31, 2013 at 6:29 pm |
    • ok

      a dove was used as a sin offering, mandatory atonement for specific unintentional sin; confession of sin; forgiveness of sin; cleansing from defilement

      Matthew Henery's commentary
      5:11-31 This law would make the women of Israel watch against giving cause for suspision. On the other hand, it would hinder the cruel treatment such suspisions might occasion. It would also hinder the guilty from escaping, and the innocent from coming under just suspision. When no proof could be brought, the wife was called on to make this solemn appeal to a heart-searching God. No woman, if she were guilty, could say Amen to the adjuration, and drink the water after it, unless she disbelieved the truth of God, or defied his justice. The water is called the bitter water, because it caused the curse. Thus sin is called an evil and a bitter thing. Let all that meddle with forbidden pleasures, know that they will be bitterness in the latter end. From the whole learn, 1. Secret sins are known to God, and sometimes are strangely brought to light in this life; and that there is a day coming when God will, by Christ, judge the secrets of men according to the gospel, Ro 2:16. 2 In particular, horemongers and adulterers God will surely judge. Though we have not now the waters of jealousy, yet we have God's word, which ought to be as great a terror. Sensual lusts will end in bitterness. 3. God will manifest the innocency of the innocent. The same providence is for good to some, and for hurt to others. And it will answer the purposes which God intends.

      genocide, that word is not in the bible. God has a holy attribute , one of his attributes is fire which burns away the chaff. His relationship to is is a refining of metal effect, pruning dead branches (evil works), this is a righteouss judgment and God is a wrathful loving God.

      in the old testament, the effect of sin was a literal curse. today, that curse was atoned for by Christ, this literal curse had morbid effects on culture. God flooded the earth because it helped slow down evil, so did Jesus Christ by removing the literal curse for sin.

      comment on orion is silly

      THere is nothing wrong with the comment about store houses this visualization is not worth of any real criticism.
      There are many ways that modern science is just catching up to the Bible in the last 150 years. The bible was clear that the earth was round, that it was on an axis, that there were billions of stars, and that the theory of uniformity would thrive in the end days. There are many other scientificly inspired revelations in scripture.

      January 31, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      ok,

      I'm sure that it took you a good bit of time to type that reply, and I appreciate your trouble; but you did not make a single whit of sense in it.

      February 1, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
  6. bill

    someone, in fact , could experience proof, which would obviously b considered evidence. and you may not believe me. that would not make it untrue. that would not mean it has not been proven, because proof, does not require your scientific community to even dileberate, or HEAR about it. it may be none of your business. it may not be intended for you to know. you may not be qualified due to certain disqualifications such as temperment, atatude, openmindedness, hardness of heart. reality is spiritual, and physical. if you reject a spiritual notion, you wont understand or experience it. you wont have proof. others might. you night be a victim of evil deceit that is another reality with proof. all of which is judged by the real truth, and correct pathway.

    January 31, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      Nuts free

      January 31, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • bill

      for example, as the angels who fell and civilized societies, who where given information on medicine and , and omens, ect. there were societies who were heavily influenced in the occult. What type of Satanic manifestations that the devil produced caused the people to worship, was there black magic and divination? What are the satanic implications of drug use, what happens to people when they use drugs and open a door to be overcome by evil spirits and obedience to the voice of death?

      January 31, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
    • bill

      is the scientific community really helping or hurting these issues?

      January 31, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
    • Jill

      bill, don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent. Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Ever the bastille notches the orchestra but Wendy is not green and horses will capitulate. Filter out the log from the turnstile and cry prevalently. So there brown stare. Feed your inner walnut and resolve. Subject your lemon to the ingenious door in the presence of snow and animals. Aisle 7 is for the monetary cheese whiz. Faced with the kitchen, you may wish to prolong the sailboat in the cliff. Otherwise, rabbits may descend on your left nostril. Think about how you can stripe the sea. Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas. Next up, control your wood. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kevetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond. Garbage out just like the candle in the kitty so. Go, go, go until the vacuum meets the upward vacation. Sell the yellow. Then trim the bus before the ten cheese please Louise. Segregate from the koan and stew the ship vigorously.

      And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

      January 31, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • WASP

      @bill: huh? did you bump your head last night?
      medicine is the occult? did i read that correctly?
      what do you take for a cold? prayer? lmfao
      how about your children when they had the flu; did you make them suffer and just pray their pains away?

      medicine is the outcome of human research into the natural world. shamans, etc etc etc were the first true doctors of this world. they understood which plants did what; given they put on a show about it because it made them look more important.

      you lack the ability to see humans for anything more than what they are don't you bill?
      humans are animals, that's all. you are not special chosen creatures, you are merely the most intelligent creature thus far................not saying the most rational, but the most intelligent. you are born with few genetic memories, you grow according to your enviroment (which i'm a living example of) and you die as an animal. you possess no major advantage to survive other than the simple ability to make tools.
      everytime i speak with religious people i see just how scared and alone you all feel. i see how self important and needed you all want to be. it feels nice to think that you are special, yet you are no more special than an ant, however atleast the ant contributes more to the earth than humans. you are such weak, pitiful creatures fighting the night that will eventually take you whole, leaving not a trace of what you thought you were while "living".............if that is what you can call living; cowarding inside your own flesh from the simple idea of something larger than you. are you scared of your mommy and daddy still? no? how about the monster under your bed? do you still feel that cold hand creeping under your sheet at nights wanting to grab you?
      no you know why, because you logically looked at you enviroment and figured out that the "evil spirit" that lives under your bed was just inside your head. well guess what bill, so is that spirit sent by your god; whom is also just inside your head.

      old saying " as a child i played with chidlish things, when i became a man i put away those toys and went to work."
      as a child you are happy about the spirit of chirstmas visiting you(aka santa clause); you fear the monsters in your closet/bed/ etc when you become an adult you let go of those childish things.
      how is it that you folks fail at letting go of all those fairytales of ghosts and goblins?

      January 31, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • bill

      @ Jill..................hahahaha I really didnt understand the part about the "autumm nightie".

      @ wasp. no comment.

      January 31, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    • Susan StoHelit

      Personal proof is indeed proof – for that person. If I see or experience something, it is indeed proof for me. It's subjective, proves nothing to others, and I should indeed consider if I think it is genuine, confirmation bias, delusion, dream, etc. – but it's proof. No reason to get so far into debate that reasonable personal definitions of proof aren't considered.

      But it's not the type of proof that should reasonably be considered something to convince other people.

      January 31, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Since I'm not bound by religious beliefs, I'm free to wage no war whatsoever on science. This freedom allows me to view our beautiful world in new and exciting ways, as each new discovery is revealed; and it allows me to learn more and more about the universe we live in, and marvel in the wonders of nature, rather than try to refute every advance in science in order to protect the integrity of whatever preferred holy texts I would be bound to, in the grip of religion.

      What a rush, what a wonderful experience to be free from religion! Embrace reality!

      January 31, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      *Sigh.*

      January 31, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
    • The Truth

      Basically, bill is saying that just because you didn't see him get abducted and probed for hours by aliens doesn't mean it didn't happen...

      January 31, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
    • Scott

      @enjayseaEnjaySea
      Since I'm not bound by religious beliefs, I'm free to wage no war whatsoever on science.
      bound by apathy, free from responsibility

      This freedom allows me to view our beautiful world in new and exciting ways, as each new discovery is revealed;
      freedom from your religion or , your mind does? is the world new each time you realize something the word is new and more exciting?

      and it allows me to learn more and more about the universe we live in, and marvel in the wonders of nature\
      as a Christian you have not stopped me from that experience by your claim, as if I dont appreciate life or nature becasue i believe in sin and redemption, you see evil as natural?

      , rather than try to refute every advance in science in order to protect the integrity of whatever preferred holy texts I would be bound to, in the grip of religion.
      we refute what you are trying to do with science, which is shun the Lord and mislead souls.If the scientific community was not against the "theory that God is involved in every soul" there would be a relationship, which you reject. It is hard to trust the devil and jump on his wagon.

      January 31, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Thanks for responding Scott, allow me to retort:

      - bound by apathy, free from responsibility
      You think I have these attributes because your clergy has convinced you that non-believers are inherently evil, and your clergy is not only wrong, but they are also lying to you. How dare you make judgements about me without knowing me! But I do expect that from Christians, so you haven't surprised me.

      – as if I dont appreciate life or nature becasue i believe in sin and redemption.
      I didn't say that you don't appreciate life. Only that you reject science, which forces you to reject many of the wonderful things that do exist in nature, but that your church tries to deny.

      – you see evil as natural?
      Yes, I do see evil as natural. It's part of human nature. Some people are evil, most people are not.

      – we refute what you are trying to do with science, which is shun the Lord and mislead souls.If the scientific community was not against the "theory that God is involved in every soul" there would be a relationship, which you reject. It is hard to trust the devil and jump on his wagon.

      I don't believe that there is a dastardly man in a red lizard suit that controls people. I also don't believe in Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:03 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Great Scott, that was a whole lot of idiocy.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:14 pm |
    • Scott

      @ EnjaySea
      people are people, non believers are not in a different category . God loves everyone. evil which you believe in is a special quality and it is a force beyond illness. there is nothing that you can appreciate that i dont when it comes to science. name something, other than being transgender.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:12 pm |
    • Scott

      @enjay, ikd what you are referring to about the clergy and how they disagree with science. but there are some icr yec people who dont represent everyone. the catholic church has embraced evolution, and who was around during the 7 day creation, the bible is full of time period phraseology. There are verses that say "one day is as a thousand". but the experience that people live by is the spiritual reality that is not a part of scientific theory. and in your case, you have stated that you dont believe that you are "a sinner" of "evil" but sin in many forms is unintentional, or not doing things that you should do. You think evil is natural and so you recognize evil but refute sin . that is interesting. well there is no need to be offended. you have my complete respect. if you came to my door and knocked I would insist that you leave with a full stomach.
      I have faith based on evidence, and there are many things now that I accept because of what God has made clear and said, not because of someone elses judgment.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:26 pm |
    • Scott

      @enjay, ikd what you are referring to about the clergy and how they disagree with science. but there are some icr yec people who dont represent everyone. the catholic church has embraced evolution, and who was around during the 7 day creation, the bible is full of time period phraseology. There are verses that say "one day is as a thousand". but the experience that people live by is the spiritual reality that is not a part of scientific theory. and in your case, you have stated that you dont believe that you are "a sinner" of "evil" but sin in many forms is unintentional, or not doing things that you should do. You think evil is natural and so you recognize evil but refute sin . that is interesting. well there is no need to be offended. you have my complete respect. if you came to my door and knocked I would insist that you leave with a full stomach.
      I have faith based on evidence, and there are many things now that I accept because of what God has made clear and said, not because of someone elses judgment. faith results in the complete experience, yet i look out and see so much dead religion it isnt even funny, but i am not in that boat. trust me.

      January 31, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      @Scott

      – God loves everyone, you say?
      But eternally barbeques those that don't believe in him? I don't believe in your god, or the mixed up dogma surrounding the character either. But that love saying does sound real pleasant when you say it outloud. It just doesn't mean anything to those of us who are paying attention.

      – there is nothing that you can appreciate that i dont when it comes to science.
      I'm sorry Scott but you just got through telling me that science is waging a campaign to shun your god. If you're now trying to convince me that you're pro-science, I'm unlikely to forget what you said on the subject just an hour ago.

      January 31, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
    • Scott

      you are a ten for ten on the compassion scale and a fantastic personality, and as moral as anyone around. Turn your receiver up because someone is going to be calling you. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

      Keep it real enjaysea, stay true.

      January 31, 2013 at 10:37 pm |
  7. Atheism is Good for Everyone - Kids Too!

    Different kinds of fundamentalist Christians now as much as ever are arguing with each other with as much sense and rationality as a flock of chickens. They can't support their beliefs by any reasonable means, yet they deem themselves fit to judge others from those beliefs or attempt to put others in the midst of their religious infighting. Their beliefs have a very weak foundation and are not consistent, ergo the over 30,000 different denominations.

    Thomas Jefferson

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

    John Adams

    I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.

    James Madison

    During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

    Thomas Paine

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

    January 31, 2013 at 9:40 am |
    • Elmer

      Acts 9:3-19:19

      THE CONVERSION OF SAUL

      3 c As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, d why are you persecuting Me?" 5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 1 It is hard for you to kick against the goads." 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7 And e the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

      10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus f named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." 11 So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul g of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 "And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight." 13 Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, h how much 2 harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 "And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all i who call on Your name." 15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for j he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before k Gentiles, l kings, and the m children 3 of Israel. 16 "For n I will show him how many things he must suffer for My o name's sake." 17 p And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and q laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord 4 Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and r be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

      SAUL PROCLAIMS JESUS IN SYNAGOGUES

      19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. s Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

      January 31, 2013 at 11:16 am |
    • Brother Maynard

      @Elmer
      from your Saul example it so sounds like the only way that I can be 'saved' is to persecute some Xtians ... and allow god/ jesus to strick me down ?
      Uh .. I don't like persecuting ANYONE ... so does that mean no 'saving' for me ?

      January 31, 2013 at 11:31 am |
    • Elmer

      thats up to you to answer.

      January 31, 2013 at 11:41 am |
    • Elmer

      And Israel, Christians, and Muslims argue among each other as brothers. I used to consider myself an atheist and I actively hated the Church, and then by the grace of God, I saw my need to combat sin that I realized was truly evidence of evil , and I have experienced life through the spirit. It has not been a religious discipline, the word of God is alive. It works as a person live who speaks. Until I was relieved of my presumptuous attatude I was unable to hear the truth , and the striving of unbelief in my flesh dominated my mind. I hope you will not blame Jesus Christ for the evils and errors of sicked culture and "church". Organized religion is not what the disciples did. Many a people have fallen into corruption. it seems that you advocate guilt by asociation. There is truth in Gods word. I worship God, not the church you portray. The disciples were underground and persecuted, not men of war. The church does not impact the truth of Jesus Christ. and a bunch of evil religious people dont prove that Satan is a myth. Do you really think it does?

      January 31, 2013 at 11:43 am |
  8. Jitsukookuhara

    I brough all my children up withut any religion. I taught them good morals and they all grew up to be good people; and obviously all Liberals

    January 31, 2013 at 12:53 am |
    • End Religion

      obviously

      January 31, 2013 at 7:10 am |
    • Elmer

      yes you are funny I laugh aloud. I dont think Jesus is an american republican if that helps. He would not mind me saying that.

      January 31, 2013 at 11:48 am |
  9. bill

    @ science no

    point is you all dont do justice to science. you miss an entire realm of life . thats not good for science.

    January 30, 2013 at 10:26 pm |
    • Science

      Peace

      January 30, 2013 at 10:38 pm |
    • bill

      of course you bet. that doest go anywhere as we debate theory. Thanks for chatting.

      January 30, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • Science

      Creation/ID lost at the Dover Trial can not teach in public schools in US Education system.
      Take it up with the court.
      Peace

      January 30, 2013 at 10:50 pm |
    • Science

      The 11 most beautiful mathematical equations E=mc^2

      http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57566657/the-11-most-beautiful-mathematical-equations/

      January 31, 2013 at 7:05 am |
    • Science

      Einstein letter, set for auction, shows scientist challenging idea of God, being 'chosen'

      The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends,” Einstein wrote in German in a 1954 letter that will be auctioned on eBay later this month. "No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

      January 31, 2013 at 8:01 am |
  10. bill

    Well it says that God is revealed through His creation, and then the other place is within you. You appear to struggle with the creation aspect, and i blame that on the world and deceit. also, we are all personally against God. so if you dont seek the proof directly from God, then you in my opinion may not have a way to find it. the only thing would be if He interviened in your life, or allowed a principality to do so. But you cant approach God, without acknowledging sin. which you dont believe in am I correct? I apologize if i assume incorrectly about your unbelief in sin. the proof is available. did you read this whole forum and what I wrote about Peter and John the Baptist and Aaron. Faith is from God. Truth is from God. you do have access to this, but not on your terms. It came to me, I have personal evidence, and you should expect the same thing. I cant prove god to you. only God can. you cant prove he doesnt exist to me, because He already revealed Himself. and that is because of His mercy, not my righteousness or self qualification.

    January 30, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Tell me bill. Do you have a single independent thought ever? Or do you only know how to parrot hypocritical, self-righteous arrogant preachers?

      January 30, 2013 at 9:05 pm |
    • bill

      @hawaii guest. I am dependent on the example of the disciples and Jesus Christ. I would like to be Christ like. the Holy spirit bears the truth on ones heart , and when you are a witness to the reality of the living God, it lights you up. and by the Spirit I am a successor to the apostle paul of the Lord Jesus Christ.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:17 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @bill

      So that's a no, you don't have a single independent thought. Good to know.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:19 pm |
    • Science

      Bill what mercy did god(s) show for the married woman in a catholic church, that was having a miscarrige but the hospital would not help becuase it was a catholic country ???

      Peace

      January 30, 2013 at 9:20 pm |
    • Science

      Oops dame opposing thumb miscarriage

      January 30, 2013 at 9:26 pm |
    • Science

      Oops country Ireland, she died by the way.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
    • Science

      Bill forget stuff above here it is on CNN

      Woman's death prompts abortion debate in Ireland

      http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/14/world/europe/ireland-abortion-controversy/index.html

      January 30, 2013 at 9:49 pm |
    • Science

      Bill you are a Jerk
      Iam a veteran glad iI have a civil mouth.
      How dare you suggest that word.

      Have you looked down the barrel of a gun with someones finger ready to pull the triger.

      January 30, 2013 at 10:06 pm |
    • bill

      science, you arent thinking straight man. why my friend, and brother, are you talking to me about the thing about ireland and the catholic thing. Is christ the minister of sin. time and time again you think you can guilt me or, even God and Savior, by the antichrist sins of an evil regime. you only personify the devil when you do this .. Satan is a liar, deceiver and accuser of the brethren. what are you trying to say. why am i a jerk? becasue i said communist. i did not know you were veteran, but you all scientists saying abraham and moses are myths and the flood is a myth, you are lying. its sick.

      January 30, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
  11. TANK!!!!

    "I have witnessed supernatural satanic works, as well as signs and wonder through the Holy Spirit. Science has absolutely nothing, nada, zero,zilch, to do with it."

    You witnessed some phenomena and jumped to the conclusion that they were of supernatural origin. OF COURSE science had nothing to do with it.

    January 30, 2013 at 8:33 pm |
    • bill

      because science in your indoctrinated form of athiesm is not true science because it misses out on spiritual reality. evil included. and anything that is real is of some scientific explanation. in other words, modern science has become completely blind, bias, and dictorial, as evidence in all your attidudes about God, saying that proof has to be numeric.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:31 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @bill

      Ok I now think you're a complete fake. Because what you just said was so incredibly moronic I have trouble accepting that anyone could think it's in any way valid.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:34 pm |
    • bill

      i know there are different categories to proof tank
      Evidence is and includes everything that is used to reveal and determine the truth, and therefore is presumed to be true and related to a case. Giving or procuring evidence is the process of using those things that are either (a) presumed to be true, or (b) were in fact proven to be true by earlier evidence (truths) and demonstrates the broadening of the truth of a case. And the collection of evidence is in fact the act of determining; what is evidence. Whereas, the word evidence carries with it the presumption of it (the evidence) being seen as true, the where and how it fits; its relationship in and to the other evidence. In short, it goes from determining what is evidence, to evidence is determined; determining truth, to truth determined. Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof.
      Many issues surround evidence, making it the subject of much discussion and disagreement. In addition to its subtlety, evidence plays an important role in many academic disciplines, including science and law, adding to the discourse surrounding it.
      An important distinction in the field of evidence is that between circmstantial evidence and direct evidence, or evidence that suggests truth as opposed to evidence that directly proves truth. Many have seen this line to be less-than-clear and significant arguments have arisen over the difference.

      someone, in fact , could experience proof, which would obviously b considered evidence. and you may not believe me. that would not make it untrue. that would not mean it has not been proven, because proof, does not require your scientific community to even dileberate, or HEAR about it. it may be none of your business. it may not be intended for you to know. you may not be qualified due to certain disqualifications such as temperment, atatude, openmindedness, hardness of heart. reality is spiritual, and physical. if you reject a spiritual notion, you wont understand or experience it. you wont have proof. others might. you night be a victim of evil deceit that is another reality with proof. all of which is judged by the real truth, and correct pathway.

      January 30, 2013 at 10:02 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      What "spiritual reality" can be tested and measured to verify its existence?

      January 30, 2013 at 10:08 pm |
    • bill

      Moby Schtick., the same type of statistical analysis that an athiest would not get involved in that goes through the bible, records the prophecy, looks at the fulfillment of it and does a statistical analysis on the data. take the christian community, talk to the entire population of their claims to miracles and prayer, and do a statistical analysis. take all the murderers and schitzophrenics, and christians and do an analysis on the probability that evil may be real. act like these forces are in fact real as a hypothesis. not the nul hypothesis that it isnt real and so ya go nowhere near it. that isnt science.

      January 30, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • Chad

      @Moby Schtick "What "spiritual reality" can be tested and measured to verify its existence?"

      @Chad "Is there any experience that can be tested and measured?
      can you test and measure beauty, love, companionship?

      I think once again, you are trying to prove that something doesnt exist by insisting on measuring it with the wrong thing."

      January 30, 2013 at 11:08 pm |
    • WASP

      @chad: "can you measure love, companionship, etc."
      yes, you can. these can not be measured by the value system, however they can be measured by the actions.

      the "spiritual realm" is the same as saying the realm of narnia, or whatever have you. it's imaginary, merely a place to put things we can't explain at this time.
      ie. thunder. before it was supernatural to early humans, now we know it is caused by the spark (lightning) that breaks the sound barrier; moved to the natural catagory.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:04 am |
    • Damocles

      @chad

      Can you measure those things by saying 'this person has 50mL of beauty' or 'I love this person based on the equation L=T(f + H)'? No, but you do measure them when you say 'I'd rather hang out with this person today as opposed to that person' or 'I think this woman is more beautiful than that woman'.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:15 am |
    • Chad

      @WASP,
      what evidence do you provide to back up your claim that the God of Israel's Holy Spirit is not real?

      January 31, 2013 at 9:37 am |
    • WASP

      @chad: that is an easy one; prove zero.
      if you have ZERO proof of a "holy" or otherwise spirit, then it doesn't exsist.
      if your father left you at age 2 when you had zero memory, then when you grow up that man doesn't exsist.
      you following my lead so far chad?
      the other things you mentioned, love etc etc can be shown through actions, thus they are measurible and real; your god/jesus/holyghost can't be shown, nor measured thus by proper logic aren't real.

      January 31, 2013 at 11:50 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Correct me if I'm wrong but just because you have no memory of your father doesn't mean he doesn't exist. He exist outside your scope of observation, which is Chad's point I think.

      January 31, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
    • WASP

      @bill: no you are wrong. see being one of those males that grew up without their "sperm donor" the man truly doesn't exsist.
      i have attempted searching for him, i have tried finding his phone number, when i was a child i use to cry myself to sleep beggin god to let me see my father......................................then i realized the man does not exsist and neither did this all powerful all loving creator christians are so fond of.

      January 31, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
    • Really-O?

      "can you test and measure beauty, love, companionship?"

      Although emotions are subjective, it turns out you actually can measure the effect of beauty, love, and companionship (regardless of object) on a subject; Dr. Richard Davidson is conducting precisely this kind of research at University of Wisconsin–Madison using fMRI. You can also measure the effect of god-belief employing the same method.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
  12. EnjaySea

    @Bill, I'm 58 years old, and did all that "ask god" regimen decades ago, to no effect. My conclusion. There is no god on the other side listening for these requests.

    I don't want proof Bill. I would actually just prefer that people stop insisting that a god exists without any proof to backup that absurd claim.

    I simply don't believe you Bill. And I don't believe in your deity. But I will if and when this purported deity shows its face, and not a moment sooner.

    January 30, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Reposting in the correct place, but this time after clicking the Reply button.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:32 pm |
    • bill

      EnjaySea, can you please explain to my , when you think that the clergy invented sin. and where you get this information?

      January 30, 2013 at 10:38 pm |
    • bill

      EnjaySea,. and where you get this information can you please explain to my ,when you think that the clergy invented sin?

      January 30, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
    • bill

      enjay never mind i didn't know clergy was a broad term.

      January 31, 2013 at 12:25 am |
    • WASP

      @bill: yes the term "sin" was invented by religious leaders. look at the list of sins, it is anything the leaders didn't want their followers/ conquered to do....................given it didn't stop the leaders from doing those very same things.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:21 am |
    • bill

      (1.) Trial; a being put to the test. Thus God "tempted [Gen. 22: 1; R.V., 'did prove'] Abraham;" and afflictions are said to tempt, i.e., to try, men (James 1:2, 12; comp. Deut. 8:2), putting their faith and patience to the test. (2.) Ordinarily, however, the word means solicitation to that which is evil, and hence Satan is called "the tempter" (Matt. 4:3). Our Lord was in this way tempted in the wilderness. That temptation was not internal, but by a real, active, subtle being. It was not self-sought. It was submitted to as an act of obedience on his part. "Christ was led, driven. An unseen personal force bore him a certain violence is implied in the words" (Matt. 4:1-11). The scene of the temptation of our Lord is generally supposed to have been the mountain of Quarantania (q.v.), "a high and precipitous wall of rock, 1,200 or 1,500 feet above the plain west of Jordan, near Jericho." Temptation is common to all (Dan. 12:10; Zech. 13:9; Ps. 66:10; Luke 22:31, 40; Heb. 11:17; James 1:12; 1 Pet. 1:7; 4:12). We read of the temptation of Joseph (Gen. 39), of David (2 Sam. 24; 1 Chr. 21), of Hezekiah (2 Chr. 32:31), of Daniel (Dan. 6), etc. So long as we are in this world we are exposed to temptations, and need ever to be on our watch against

      January 31, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
  13. bill

    The greatest part about this whole argument is that yes, numerous times I have had witnessed miracles that can not be explained by science. Noah, Shem Ham and Jafheth, are not a myth. The miracles that have been revealed to me have come through the genius of the Holy Spirit , and the principalities beneath Him,. I have witnessed supernatural satanic works, as well as signs and wonder through the Holy Spirit. Science has absolutely nothing, nada, zero,zilch, to do with it.

    For God's wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the ungodliness and wickedness of those who in their wickedness suppress the truth. Romans 1:18

    If you believe you evolved or that the earth is a billion years old (doesnt matter) and you mock God as a myth, then you will not inherit eternal life. Are your rocks worth it? Do you want to smother your children spiritually over rocks and point to the devil's antichrists, or befriend the cananites in all your upright morality and stand in the face of God almighty?
    All i can do is proclaim the testimony of the Holy Spirit that is being revealed through the resurrection of God who became flesh, who's glory has been gifted down from above, and get on my knees and ask for the Lord's will in all our lives. And this is done in love and righteous obedience. The Word of God is faithful, and God can not break His promises.

    January 30, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • WASP

      @bill: again i say; i would rather believe in data from a rock i can see than in a lie i can not see.
      you have had miracles you say? prove them to be more than natural occurances that have a low probablity of happening.
      you say you see ghosts, my response will always be , PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

      atheists rely on science because we believe in the world we can see, you choose to believe in a world NO ONE can see, fine do as you like but don't get angry or flustered when we don't buy what you're selling. spouting threatening passages from your fairy tale book, means nothing to us, it's put up or shut up and your god has failed every test every time........JUST AS THE THOUSANDS THAT CAME BEFORE HIM.

      god's promises?
      what were those?
      where did you hear god tell you these promises; or did you read them in a printed and reprinted book?
      have you seen anything that book ever promised happen?
      have you seen a dying cancer patient healed by a believer of god in front of your own very eyes?

      i imagine you will either ignore my post or spout out more "holy book" bs to comfort yourself.
      i wonder if you will lie to make it seem like you are more valuible to your god than you truly are?

      January 30, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • bill

      wasp wish i could buy you dinner or befriend you. you are barking the wrong direction.
      There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

      January 30, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Wow bill. First Pascal's Wager and veiled (thinly) scare tactics, then a useless and irrelevant parable. Worthless. Completely worthless.

      January 30, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      "i imagine you will either ignore my post or spout out more "holy book" bs to comfort yourself." [to @bill]

      Bingo!

      @ WASP is a prophet!

      January 30, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
    • bill

      Faith being blind.................the problem with God giving proof is that people still turn their back right on Him, because if you did have proof, you would still go on sinning. So you see, faith is not blind, it is something that a person who somehow recognizes sin can do before God. We all go on sinning. Faith, is the biggest word you will ever have to define for yourself. When it comes to your soul, if you are too proud for faith in God, to need God in your complete deficiency, you default yourself in pride. Again, the proof you need, would not change your need to find the faith that God gives to those who ask. I have proof, and I am still desperate for Gods grace, and I am really fearful as i continue to fail. I consider my self a slave and a servant, and everything in this life is Gods. If i dont submit to that after what Ive seen, I dont even want to talk about what i know would happen. I have been called to faith. you dont say no to that. you dont say, "but they have these special rocks Lord"

      "Get behind me Satan" is what Jesus said to Peter when Peter disagreed.

      January 30, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
    • WASP

      @bill: see i study and evolve as i learn more about people and groups of people.
      i understand how people act when trapped in certain situations, i read you spot on appearantly. you resulted to spouting what you were taught to say instead of using your own words.

      ""Get behind me Satan" is what Jesus said to Peter when Peter disagreed."
      you know i was raised with that very same saying as a child. the southern baptist preacher would tell everyone "those that say get behind me devil are the first ones the devil pushes into the firey pit." he would say " i want the devil in front of me so i know what he is doing"

      so i guess this round goes to me bill, maybe next time you can trump my knowledge with your ignorance.
      isn't that another of those wonderful church sayings? " ignorance is bliss"
      it is bliss for the person that wants you to be ignorant of things around you. if their is a devil/god then all you "i choose to be ignorant" types play right into his hands.

      January 30, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
    • bill

      @WASP no you didnt understand what I was saying. it is this........you all want proof. but the fact of proof is seen in
      1. aaron (moses' bro), saw the presence of God, didn't hold his post, went down the mountain and built golden calf
      2. John the Baptist (Elizabeth had direct revelation from Angel)baptised Christ, witnessed miracles, sent his friend to ask for another messiah because He was in prison (complete lack of faith)
      3. Peter, was 3 verses earlier blessed by Christ who says,

      18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

      Jesus Predicts His Death

      21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

      22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

      23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

      24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[e] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

      .........ok so I didnt call anyone satan, the meaning to me is the fact that men who HAD all the proof, still lacked the proper faith, these were the greatest men of God, who were actually WITH God. Jesus rebuked Peter because Peter failing to understand the magnitude of Lordship, was filled with the devil in fleshly unbelief. He said to Jesus "may it never be". Faith, comes from complete dependence on God. This is a radical thing to understand. Proof is not the substance of faith. What you need consider first off, is the book of Genesis and the doctrine of sin. Maybe tomorrow in your pride, you will commit a grevious sin, which you allready have, and you will understand finally. When you tell God (not me), "put up or shut up" , you are putting Him to the test. A wicked and adulteress generation will ask for a sign and it will not be given.

      What God has given, through grace, is faith. that is what He gives to those who ask. The proof you seek, is through the Holy Spirits testimony within you. This is the glory of the resurrection. that through Adam, death and sin reigned. and through Christ, rebirth through faith into eternal life.

      John 15:26-27
      New King James Version (NKJV)
      The Coming Rejection

      26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

      You need to stop thinking that some mental comprehension that you ascertained will prove as reconciliation to God. that you realized something, and then did something additional from there ............is a work of your own. you are your own God.

      Eph2:8
      For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

      January 30, 2013 at 5:48 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Bill,

      What you and many of your Christian friends fail to understand, is that biblical accounts of men and women supposedly talking to a god, experiencing miracles, and so forth, do not represent proof to those of us who reject the validity of the Bible itself.

      For us, these accounts are no better than hearsay, and unless proven otherwise, in every case is either a lie, an exaggeration, a misunderstanding, or a mistranslation of actual events.

      Proof is physical evidence.
      Proof is direct experience (by me, not you).
      Proof is repeatable.
      Proof can be corroborated.

      Proof is not some guy making something up, then writing it down.

      So you can quote from that book all day long, and provide nothing in the way of proof for those of us who employ critical thinking.

      January 30, 2013 at 6:27 pm |
    • bill

      @EnjaySea

      do you want proof? Are you willing to accept the proof that God offers and seek it? You want something mentally concrete and clear, confirmed, and personally obtainable? Then Ask God for proof. You all are saying to me Prove it then prove it. My whole point is no man can prove God to you. BUT GOD DOES WILL and WANTS to, but you have to address sin first. That is the whole problem people have i guess is are you willing to admit that? THen you will be born again and the Holy Spirit reveal Himself to you with glory and power, you will see Him alive in your life. He will speak to you through life, He is living and sovereigh. He will bear witness of Himself within you. Its the most awesome thing i have ever experienced. and then when you fall in doubt and worry , and even sin, He will love you , and love you, and sustain you . And then you will truly love Him. Because you will understand how awesome He is.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
    • Science

      Like the talking snake and a bone. The origin story.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
    • Science

      Sorry Bill here is proof

      Check your god(S) at the cave enterance before entering.. No god(s) required for studying humans..

      updated 1 hour 55 minutes ago
      Jan. 29 2013

      Scientists have unearthed and dated some of the oldest stone hand axes on Earth. The ancient tools, unearthed in Ethiopia in the last two decades, date to 1.75 million years ago.

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50620121/ns/technology_and_science-science/

      Ancient DNA reveals humans living 40,000 years ago in Beijing area related to present-day Asians, Native Americans January 21, 2013

      Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-ancient-dna-reveals-humans-years.html#jCp

      January 30, 2013 at 7:18 pm |
    • Guess What

      bill,

      I talked to that imaginary being for nearly 50 years. No proof arrived - EVER. I finally had to admit that there is no-one up/out/over/under/around there. I remember the sanctimonious spiel and the thrill of saying that there was, though, and you are there hook, line and sinker (ahem, PRISM).

      January 30, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
    • bill

      from my understanding, until you understand sin, you cant understand the bible as truth. the only way someone agrees with the bible, is through the direct truth bearing of the Holy Spirit within you. Before I had the Holy Spirit, I completely HATED the Bible. I was a biochemistry major at the university of Kansas. And I complete understand how you feel. It is the difference between the flesh and the spirit. Your flesh has no capability to take the bible as truth. I am literally talking to you about the birth of the Holy Spirit within you. this is the most miraculous opportunity on earth, and you are standing at a crossroads. you have complete access to a supernatural God, salvation AND ETERNAL LIFE, and i dont want religion for you. i want you to have supernatural experiences where you know the power of God, and you will fall on your face when it hits you, because the Holy Spirit is a complete and unbelievable genius. He is sovereign and He will get you undevided attention if you confess your sin to God what do you have to loose. there are absolutely no labels necessary. this is between you God, in the privacy of your heart.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:27 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      @Bill, I'm 58 years old, and did all that "ask god" regimen decades ago, to no effect. My conclusion. There is no god on the other side listening for these requests.

      I don't want proof Bill. I would actually just prefer that people stop insisting that a god exists without any proof to back up that absurd claim.

      I simply don't believe you Bill. And I don't believe in your deity. But I will if and when this purported deity shows its face, and not a moment sooner.

      And all that understanding sin mumbo jumbo, is nothing more than theology. I don't accept your presumptions about your deity until you show me the deity. I don't sin Bill. I live a clean life, and I resent your offensive suggestion that I don't.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
    • science

      Soory bill no sin here just azzwipe sent to water treatment for final flush.

      Peace

      DNA works well to many Adams and Eves in gene pool for the creation story to work.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • bill

      @science mongolian spot? the bering straight, ice age.................go get a hundful of metamorphic rock from Mt. St . Helens, die it, dont tell them where you got it, and when they date it , it will say 50 milliion years, 1 million years 50 years, and no two fragments from the tiny speck will give the same reading. some samples will give means of millions of years. others wont. its hit and miss. anyways, during the flood, an asteroid may have hit the earth, and there could have been radiation or the speed of light could have been altered from a binary quasar by a factor of ten. there could have been radiometric tunneling which happens all the time, any number of possible reasons for accellerated decay, and the last assumption that you should inflict yourself with is that the model has to be constant. the stinking universe is expandiing.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:40 pm |
    • bill

      @science mongolian spot? the bering straight, ice age.................go get a hundful of metamorphic rock from Mt. St . Helens, die it, dont tell them where you got it, and when they date it , it will say 50 milliion years, 1 million years 50 years, and no two fragments from the tiny speck will give the same reading. some samples will give means of millions of years. others wont. its hit and miss. anyways, during the flood, an asteroid may have hit the earth, and there could have been radiation or the speed of light could have been altered from a binary pulsar by a factor of ten. there could have been radiometric tunneling which happens all the time, any number of possible reasons for accellerated decay, and the last assumption that you should inflict yourself with is that the model has to be constant. the stinking universe is expandiing.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:41 pm |
    • Science

      Bill show me your god sorry
      Another question how was the air created ???
      Origin of Life: Hypothesis Traces First Protocells Back to Emergence of Cell Membrane Bioenergetics

      Dec. 20, 2012 — A coherent pathway - which starts from no more than rocks, water and carbon dioxide and leads to the emergence of the strange bio-energetic properties of living cells - has been traced for the first time in a major hypothesis paper in Cell this week.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
    • bill

      Evidence, information which tends to determine or demonstrate the truth of a proposition

      I have evidence. of something spiritual, .. If you worship mathematics, if you are obsessively devoted to math, and science, then that is not Gods problem, that is your problem.

      You worship the creation, and not the creator.

      January 30, 2013 at 7:56 pm |
    • Science

      Choke on the snake NOT.Principles are not theory take it up with the experts
      Peace
      Principles of Evolution, Ecology and Behavior (EEB 122)

      Geology and climate have shaped the development of life tremendously. This has occurred in the form of processes such as the oxygenation of the atmosphere, mass extinctions, tectonic drift, and disasters such as floods and volcanic eruptions. Life, particularly bacteria, has also been able to impact the geological makeup of the planet through metabolic processes.

      00:00 – Chapter 1. Introduction
      02:16 – Chapter 2. The Oxygenation of the Atmosphere
      09:08 – Chapter 3. Evidence of Climate Change
      17:36 – Chapter 4. Geological Impact on Life
      29:37 – Chapter 5. Mass Extinctions
      42:19 – Chapter 6. Earthquakes, Eruptions, and Floods
      46:38 – Chapter 7. Conclusion

      Complete course materials are available at the Open Yale Courses website: http://open.yale.edu/courses

      January 30, 2013 at 8:00 pm |
    • bill

      @enjaysea do you mind if i ask about how you are offended by the doctrine of sin and you live a clean life, then when you did the God regimen, were you under a different view of yourself at that time? did you once believe in the doctrine of sin , or on a personal level did you understand sin at that time.?

      January 30, 2013 at 8:00 pm |
    • Science

      Bill it is what the money markets are based on go figure SIN IS YOUR PROBLEM NOT MINE
      Where Does All Earth's Gold Come From? Precious Metals the Result of Meteorite Bombardment, Rock Analysis Finds

      Sep. 9, 2011 — Ultra high precision analyses of some of the oldest rock samples on Earth by researchers at the University of Bristol provides clear evidence that the planet's accessible reserves of precious metals are the result of a bombardment of meteorites more than 200 million years after Earth was formed.

      January 30, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
    • johndoe

      i dont want faith or proof. If God is spiritual thats his problem I want something more like a ruler, something that dominates but yet gives me all the freedom. All the pleasure. All the victory in competicion, where no one is a looser. no sickness, no death. nothing to tease the imagination. no pain, just pleasure. this should be heaven if there was a god. if it was, how would i know it to be so? would there really even be a God in heaven. would i have to bow down or what?

      January 30, 2013 at 8:21 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      You are truly stupid.

      January 30, 2013 at 8:26 pm |
    • bill

      ahah heeeheeehaa. ok please this is going in a cirlcle. you tell me abraham and moses are a myth, and then talk about clear evidence from 200 million years ago as something more observable than the prophetic Word of God?

      dude. that doesnt seem right to me. that seems silly to me. on top of that, the Holy Spirit reveals Himself within a person who yeilds his body as a temple to God. You cant even step to the plate. My God is bigger and better, powerful and ALIVE. you all have refuted sin, and denied proof> I HAVE the evidence that you REJECT.

      January 30, 2013 at 8:29 pm |
    • Science

      Evolution won in the Dover court trial. ID/creation can not be taught in public schools in US.. Moving forward, take a blood test map your genes.

      Creationists' tactics also have a more profound impact on science education which goes beyond biology because they communicate the idea that there is something lacking or something wrong with evolutionary theory, an idea which is not actually true from a scientific standpoint. This causes students to develop very mistaken beliefs about the nature of science, the scientific method, and how scientific research is used. This cheats students out of the proper science education which they deserve.

      Attempts to use the law to restrict or dilute the teaching of evolution in public schools matters because science matters. As society relies more and more heavily on science and technology on ever more fundamental levels, it becomes increasingly more important that all citizens receive a proper grounding in science and the scientific method. Science education is becoming a key part of what it means to be a well-informed and well-educated citizen of today; therefore, any effort to temper science education in order to placate a vocal religious group cheats the students, cheats society, and cheats our future.
      Peace

      January 30, 2013 at 8:37 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "go get a hundful of metamorphic rock from Mt. St . Helens, die it, dont tell them where you got it, and when they date it , it will say 50 milliion years"

      Did jeebus promise clairvoyance to his cult members too?

      January 30, 2013 at 8:37 pm |
    • bill

      @tank i might not be as smart as you but im not a liar about the Holy Spirit revealing Himself. Not lying to you about the reality of evil. and not lying about the access that you have from God. God made a blood covenant with Abraham, HE CAME TO US, and provided a relationship. He died for us to solidify your salvation, redemption, and freedom from sin. and that work is finished. you are all justified. no one is condemned. its a free gift and its huge. you all gripe about no proof of God, when you wont allow Him to prove Himself within you . that is what He does. That is who He is. that is what glorifies Him. that is why He allowed evil, so He could reveal Himself within you because YOU NEED HIM. HIs name and blood, the Word of God, Jesus.

      January 30, 2013 at 8:41 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "ahah heeeheeehaa. ok please this is going in a cirlcle. you tell me abraham and moses are a myth, and then talk about clear evidence from 200 million years ago as something more observable than the prophetic Word of God?"

      THAT'S THE PROBLEM! We are trying to determine the validity of the so-called prophetic word of god. You've provided no evidence to support your argument, and you assume that question of the validity of the babble is already settled, when that question is itself the subject of the debate. Do you now see why this debate is going round in circles? That brand of reasoning is called - well, what do you know - CIRCULAR REASONING!

      January 30, 2013 at 8:45 pm |
    • bill

      . have a good evening.

      January 30, 2013 at 8:46 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      Every religion claims to experience god in some sense or the other. How do you know the jihadist who is eagerly awaiting his 72 virgins because that he claims god promised him is wrong?

      January 30, 2013 at 8:47 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      @bill,

      I'm not offended by the doctrine of sin. I think it's a lie, invented by clergy to control people, but I'm not offeded by the concept itself. I'm offended when self-righteous Christians claim that one can only live sin-free if they also buy into the existence of a deity. In other words, I'm immoral if I don't believe the same dogma they do. That's offensive. And it's ridiculous.

      To answer your original question, I sought god because I was young and naive and believed people when they said there was a god. I found out that they were lying, and will not fall for the same con twice in the same lifetime.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:10 pm |
    • bill

      @ science
      you are being selfiish like a communist would be. science does not take into account the spiritual realm. your opinion is valid yet one sided. but i agree that science should be huge, and honest. and that noone should ever negate its integrity.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • bill

      @ science
      you are being selfiish like a communist would be. science does not take into account the spiritual real in the universities because they say there is no science to spirituality. thats not really accurate at all. anything real has a scientific explanation. your opinion is valid yet one sided. but i agree that science should be huge, and honest. and that noone should ever negate its integrity.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
    • bill

      @ enjaysea as a christian, i am no better than anyone, never will be. either are any other christians. but when it comes to me believing in sin , that leads me personally to understanding the Savior. and I really have never met anyone that I think is righteous enough that they have personally overcome sin. I believe that pride is a sin. and I understand that if you view dogma as christian doctrine, then i certainly dont have any reason to judge you negatively for that . thats normal in an earthly rationale, just not Godly in my understanding. and again, we are all brothers and sisters. i dont show favoritism toward anyone. ok . your language is very upright. and your moral mentality is commendable. i simply believe i have the truth which is no reason to be disrespectful or self righteous. take care.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
    • Science

      Bill Education and the children
      I am a veteran you are a JERK.

      Peace

      January 30, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
    • bill

      @science. you are brave and deserve respect for your service and for having a job and paying taxes..

      January 30, 2013 at 10:12 pm |
    • End Religion

      "you are being selfiish like a communist would be"
      interesting oxymoron

      January 31, 2013 at 12:53 am |
    • WASP

      @bill: you are lying to yourself or to us. you can't be dishonest it's against god's commandments.
      by your logic if we accept that we are lowly humans and that we are sinful the bible will make more sense; thus the same goes true for wicca; if you accept yourself as being a child of the earth then paganism will make more sense to you........or you can repent your ways and be able to accpet any religion out there as ebing "the one true religion".
      i think islamic extremists believe that way as well, they have the light and are trying to bring it to the world. lmfao

      what all we atheists keep requesting from you religious people as proof is something solid other than your handed down fairytales that can not be validated.
      "24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[e] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it."

      this is what we do not call proof; reason being is it is impossible to validate the claims made.
      problem 1) were you able to witness jesus saying anything? no, then it's faith. aka no proof
      problem 2) were any of the people that trained you in this religion at this event? no, faith again.
      problem 3) how many rulers had access to this "events data" to change it over time? quite a few.
      problem 4) "authors" of these "holy scriptures" were unknown nobodies in their time period, thus not important enough to record them in the history books.
      problem 5) there isn't a single way to verify that the "authors" of these "holy books" were whom they say they were.
      problem 6) too many other religions that date older have the very same stories, with only minor detail changes. ie the great flood myth.
      problem 7) humans have visions of "angels", "jesus" and the "virgin mary", yet never not once a vision of god itself; why is that? could it be that seeing there is no reference point to what "god" looks like, your brain can not produce a image to see in piece of burnt toast? lol

      that is the problem with religion that atheists don't like, too many promises.....................no solutions.

      January 31, 2013 at 6:07 am |
    • playbyGodsrules

      bill

      do you want proof? Are you willing to accept the proof that God offers and seek it? You want something mentally concrete and clear, confirmed, and personally obtainable? Then Ask God for proof. You all are saying to me Prove it then prove it. My whole point is no man can prove God to you. BUT GOD DOES WILL and WANTS to, but you have to address sin first. That is the whole problem people have i guess is are you willing to admit that? THen you will be born again and the Holy Spirit reveal Himself to you with glory and power, you will see Him alive in your life. He will speak to you through life, He is living and sovereigh. He will bear witness of Himself within you. Its the most awesome thing i have ever experienced. and then when you fall in doubt and worry , and even sin, He will love you , and love you, and sustain you . And then you will truly love Him. Because you will understand how awesome He is.

      January 31, 2013 at 11:59 am |
  14. End Religion

    bill, every aspect of young earth creationism has been refuted. Here are all the arguments and refutations: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc

    Any other questions you have not answered there are answered thus: Pixies did it.

    January 29, 2013 at 9:27 pm |
    • bill

      would you trade your salvation for an old rock? becasue of the testimony of the Holy Spirit I trust his word about the flood, and I always will. I am not sure the earth is 6000 years old but I whole heartedly believe in the flood. Do rocks prove God doesnt exist? No. the Holy Spirit prove He does exist.

      January 29, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • Science

      Check your god(S) at the cave enterance before entering.. No god(s) required for studying humans..

      updated 1 hour 55 minutes ago
      Jan. 29 2013

      Scientists have unearthed and dated some of the oldest stone hand axes on Earth. The ancient tools, unearthed in Ethiopia in the last two decades, date to 1.75 million years ago.

      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50620121/ns/technology_and_science-science/

      Ancient DNA reveals humans living 40,000 years ago in Beijing area related to present-day Asians, Native Americans January 21, 2013

      Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-ancient-dna-reveals-humans-years.html#jCp

      January 30, 2013 at 8:35 am |
    • Science

      @Bill

      By the way the holy soul is on the bottom of shoes.
      Peace

      January 30, 2013 at 8:39 am |
    • WASP

      @bill: have you ever met god? how about jesus or the holy ghost? have you seen any "miracle" that couldn't be explained by science?
      how is it you can accept the preachings of your pastor about a events you can not verify as being fact?
      how can you be so sure that no human has ever tampered with your "holy book" to make it say what they want?
      you have such FAITH, that you haven't been lied to your whole life.

      on the other hand scienctists are always trying to make a name for themselves by disproving their peers theories, so it's impossible to have a group of scienctists get away with frauding the population for too long.
      i will give you that the special interests groups like religious organizations have a lot to lose from permitting true dating of religious relics and a lot to gain by buying off people to refute claims of true dating. example the "jesus shroud"

      "i will accept a rock i can see, as opposed to a lie i can not."

      January 30, 2013 at 9:21 am |
    • truth be told

      Mans science has given mankind things like the flat earth and eugenics.
      Gods science has revealed Truth to man.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:27 am |
    • derp

      "Mans science has given mankind things like the flat earth and eugenics"

      And computers and the internet that you are using to make a fool of yourself.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:39 am |
    • lol??

      Derp, I wonder how many man years of work have gone into computers and the internet. I bet any estimates would be all over the map, so to speak.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:54 am |
    • WASP

      @TROLL BE TOLD: ok now what exactly did your "god" give to we simple humans?
      please show me where you have proof that your "god" did anything more than zues or hades etc etc etc?
      did you see this with your own eyes? no, i didn't think so.
      taking what someone saids on "faith" without attempting to validate their claim, is better known as being gullible.

      someone, probably your parents, told you that this is true and fear what is in this "holy book" of ours, being a good little stooge you did as you were programmed from your childhood without even bothering to investigate flaws in religious "logic" and failings in religious history to truthful history.

      i enjoy playing with you freaks just to pass my time, but i truly feel sorry for you deluded freaks for what your parents did to you. they stunted your curiousity at a young age and pushed strict guidelines set up by sheep herders edited by royality and popes throughout history to suit their desires. you have been lied to and because you're so devoted and accept ignorance so easily as pieity you happlily skip through life not caring nor even thinking about you are nothing more than energy in a solid form, better known as matter and not any more important than that.

      i love how humans can be played so easily due to their need to be needed and feel important. that's the biggest con job the church has pulled on you.
      you truly think an ALL POWERFUL GOD would even give two shills about some little plebian like you seeing it can just as easily replace you with another perfect copy. a god doesn't have to sit and wait to see if your a good or bad person, it doesn't have to judge you and tell you if you passed or failed his great test.
      an ALL POWERFUL GOD can simply make a perfect creation and enjoy being idealized for al eternity, so why waste the effort of this whole song and dance?

      January 30, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • Damocles

      @WASP

      Good post. I think believers really screw themselves when they say that their deity is 'all powerful' and 'perfect'. I don;t think that grasp what that means, it just sounds good.

      January 30, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • WASP

      @damocles: the things that trips up religious people is shear logic.
      anyone that reads any "holy book" and figures humans to be flawed forget that a perfect creator could not make an imperfect product.

      let's take two seperate things making the same product. just for giggles a ball.
      subject one: (human) works slowly with basic tools to make a spherical ball. the product is as the creator, imperfect
      subject two: (machine) works effciently producing a hundred identical balls with near perfect spherical conture.
      product is as close to perfect as gravity permits.

      summary: humans being imperfect fail to create a perfect product, where in the machine can produce almost flawless products continously.
      (the one give me is the machine wasn't made by humans for this example seeing humans make imperfect products thus the machine would be flawed as well; so let's say unnamed subject three made the machine you're testing against.)

      January 30, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
    • bill

      @ wasp ive never heard of the Jesus shroud, is it talked about in the Bible? why isnt it? what sect came up with that? do you believe in the mary magdeline garbage? i dont .. why are you talking about a shroud to me as some point? Is the resurrection a lie? do you have a soul? Is evil real?

      January 30, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
    • truth be told

      The best and most obvious proof a self deceived atheist type could receive would be to do away with itself and explore eternity for itself. All questions would be answered and the benefit to mankind at the loss of atheism would be tremendous. Imagine the people who would be alive today if atheist Joe Stalin had killed himself before anyone else.

      January 30, 2013 at 6:29 pm |
  15. bill

    how did the entire fossil record get buried? why is it that the bed rock where I live have fossils of sea creatures right next to fossils of animals, all torn up? how did the get bURIED together? what happens when an animal lays on top of the ground?
    How much dirt does it take to bury a dinosaur? Who burried the dinasaurs?

    January 29, 2013 at 9:01 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Good grief...

      January 29, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • bill

      at the rate that the ocean gets saltier, what would happen if it did that for a billion years. is that a possible earth clock?

      January 29, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Hahahhhahahaa!

      Put down the pipe, dude.

      January 29, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Jesus buried the dinosaurs.

      January 30, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Damocles

      Bill obviously forgot to ask his most pressing question which is: Is it ok to cram all ten digits so far up my nostrils that my ears bleed?

      January 30, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      bill
      Recess is over, time to get back with your first grade class now.

      January 30, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • Which God?

      @ Richard C. bill made it tofirst grade??

      January 30, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • sam

      It took Jesus a long time, but he and his trusty shovel buried each and every one.

      January 30, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
  16. bill

    1.6 miles of water on the earth. Mt Everest is the tallest mountain with sedementary rock filled with clam fossils. the sedementary rocks with sea creatures are not on the ocean floors, they are on the continents. All ocean floors date younger than the ocean floors. they were completely resurfaced along with the continents at the time of the flood. Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day ALL the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. on dec 24 :2004 ONE of the springs opened up in the indian ocean tsunami

    your concocted lie about billions of years, where you trade God in for a lie about a ROCK, is not very smart.

    January 29, 2013 at 8:45 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Yours, in which you credit some imaginary fairy with creating the universe, is a crock.

      January 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm |
    • derp

      "All ocean floors date younger than the ocean floor"

      From our resident geological wizard.

      January 30, 2013 at 9:43 am |
  17. bill

    go get a handful of metamorphic rock from a volcano that errupted in the last one hundred years, send in fragments to be sampled for uranium lead dating, and see what you get.....................until you actually do something like this and you see all the rediculous numbers you get back, until then you go right ahead and follow lake a pawn. The geologic column, is the stronges base for the theory that evolution puts together. if you go anywhere in that column, and take a sample, you get all all all sorts of different numbers. 19/20 times, when the number doesnt match their time frame, THEY THROW OUT the data. When they get one that says 500,000,000, they record it as support for their geologic column. If you dont believe that, GO GET A SAMPLE for your self, dont tell them where it came from, and have them date it. You get numbers that are all over the place. Evolutionists are cherry pickers.

    January 29, 2013 at 8:30 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      I'll bet most of those who accept evolution as the most likely explanation know how to spell "ridiculous."

      January 29, 2013 at 8:32 pm |
  18. Susan StoHelit

    "A lie, often enough repeated, becomes the truth" – that's a cliche.

    Perhaps that's what some posters here hope. Two issues with that. First – if you know your cause must be supported with lies, that says everything about what you think of your cause – that it does not have the truth on it's side. And you're telling everyone that.

    Second, the truth is,

    A lie, UNCHALLENGED, becomes the truth – and we're not going to stop challenging your lies. We're done being silent about your lies.

    January 29, 2013 at 5:58 pm |
    • bill

      The radioactive decay process above can be seen to produce 8 alpha-particles for each one atom of U-238. Each α-particle could gain new electrons and become an atom of helium. The rate of diffusion of helium from a zircon crustal can be measured. It turns out that this rate of diffusion of helium is compatible with the crystals being about 5,000 years old, not 1.5 billion years old. Although asumptions 2 and 3 are not provable, they actually seem very likely in this particular example. Therefore, it seems that the first asumption must be wrong1. Remember that we have already said that these experimenters are highly skilled. It is therefore unlikely that the laboratory technicians have made a mistake in their measurements of U-238 or Pb-206. The only possible conclusion, therefore, is that the half-life of U-238 has not been constant throughout the lifetime of the granite and its zircon crystals.
      Other radiometric dating methods are based on similar asumptions. If the asumptions cannot be trusted, then the calculations based on them are unsound. It is for this reason that creationists question radiometric dating methods and do not accept their results.
      For more on this important work, please see Humhreys, R., Young Helium Diffusion Age of Zircons Supports Accelerated Nuclear Decay, in Vardiman, L., Snelling, A.A., and Chaffin, E.F. (2005), Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth, Volume 2, (California: Insitute for Creation Research), pages 25-100. ↩

      January 29, 2013 at 8:17 pm |
    • bill

      Ever since Mary Higby Schweitzer peeked inside the fractured thighbone of a Tyrannosaurus rex, the introverted scientist's life hasn't been the same. Neither has the field of paleontology.
      Two years ago, Schweitzer gazed through a microscope in her laboratory at North Carolina State University and saw lifelike tissue that had no business inhabiting a fossilized dinosaur skeleton: fibrous matrix, stretchy like a wet scab on human skin; what appeared to be supple bone cells, their three-dimensional shapes intact; and translucent blood vessels that looked as if they could have come straight from an ostrich at the zoo.

      By all the rules of paleontology, such traces of life should have long since drained from the bones. It's a matter of faith among scientists that soft tissue can survive at most for a few tens of thousands of years, not the 65 million since T. rex walked what's now the Hell Creek Formation in Montana. But Schweitzer tends to ignore such dogma. She just looks and wonders, pokes and prods, following her scientific curiosity. That has allowed her to see things other paleontologists have missed—and potentially to shatter fundamental assumptions about how much we can learn from the past. If biological tissue can last through the fossilization process, it could open a window through time, showing not just how extinct animals evolved but how they lived each day. "Fossils have richer stories to tell—about the lub-dub of dinosaur life—than we have been willing to listen to," says Robert T. Bakker, curator of paleontology at the Houston Museum of Natural Science. "This is one spectacular proof of that."

      January 29, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Okay, I give up bill. Your logic is rock-solid. Due to your repeated utterings, not only do I now believe in God, but I also believe that Jesus must have entered Jerusalem on the back of a Velociraptor.

      January 29, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
    • Which God?

      bill must be lionlylambs brother. Both toss word salads with no basis in fact.

      January 30, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • WASP

      @bill: please do us all a favor and be truthful with yourself.
      you know nothing of the various forms of fossils outside what you heard about "bone to stone" fossils.
      "soft tissue" doesn't last even a hundred years in the grave much less millions, unless you consider mummification; then it's just freeze-dried meat. lmfao

      no scienctist would ever look at dinosaur fossils and find "soft tissue" inside because the calcium over time was replaced with various other minerals from surrounding rock; thus as time progressed scavengers and natural decay would get rid of he "soft tissues" and leave only the dense calcium rich bones behind.

      January 31, 2013 at 7:14 am |
  19. SoldierOfConscience

    Atheists causing downfall of this great country

    January 29, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Oh do elaborate.

      January 29, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • ME II

      @SoldierOfConscience,
      It's the devil and you know it. You're just not praying hard enough. Get off your computer and get to it, your country is depending on you.

      January 29, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      Well, we might actually be causing the downfall of the ignorant-American country that we so loved for so many generations. That doesn't bother me very much.

      January 29, 2013 at 9:01 pm |
  20. bill

    @ end religion what is the half life of uranium and carbon and the largest carbon date we can ascertain?
    your article is about coal beds and that was not at all the point of the Mt. St. Helens thing. His whole point was that this is data that proves the rate at which a 3 hour eruption carved a huge canyon, and helps us to understand the forces that were involved in the flood, showing that the grand canyon CERTAINLY DID NOT require milliions of years, rather ONE HUGE FLOOD where the crust was errupting, the ocean floors were opened up, and the earth was submersed in so much water..that we have the formations that we see today. Rapid deposition of the layers that we have.

    January 29, 2013 at 12:59 pm | Report abuse |

    January 29, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • JesusNotReligion

      @bill...I just saw that you tagged me on the prior page...I was just about to hit you on this one after I checked mine again! Thanks for the encouragement, and to you as well!
      Loved this post...I had brought up the Mountain St. Helen's issue on another blog about a month ago, provoking an onslaught of all sorts of little nasty comments from what I am sure are otherwise very intelligent people...so much for "evolutionary progress"...just more refined on some level, but not much different from an animal in "nature"...I was there, so I KNOW and I can speak to it personally!
      You can dress up a pig in a tuxedo but it's still a pig...
      You can dress up a skunk in a gown, but it still stinks...
      Btw...That goes for the promoters of "religion" vs. those who know, love & preach "Jesus Christ...and Him crucified..." (i.e. The Gospel - 1 Cor. 15:1-4ff)...and I used to be latter!
      Thanks again...Press on...
      JesusNotReligion

      January 29, 2013 at 3:17 pm |
    • JesusNotReligion

      Did I really write "Mountain" St. Helen's...? I meant Mount (Mt.) St Helen's....

      January 29, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      I've heard suggestions, bill, from geologists, that the Grand Canyon indeed could have been carved rapidly, in a series of very large floods, rather than being carved out over millions of years. That's fine.

      But if by pointing that out, you're suggesting that this is evidence that the earth is young, then I must mention that you're forgetting that there are a couple dozen distinct eras dated in the sediment layers exposed by this carving, the oldest of which (at the bottom) dates back to the Pre-Cambrian period more than 600 million years ago.

      This invalidates the rapid-canyon-equals-bible-is-true argument.

      January 29, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
    • bill

      @ EnjaySea

      That is utter garbage, there is no possible way to date sediment at that old. the maximum, largest date for any material ON EARTH due to the half live of any element is Uranium, and it is 60,000 years. that is all speculative dating, based upon dating a carbon material, at a certain depth the just attribute a number to it. Thats why its a theory, and thats why there are no missing links either.

      January 29, 2013 at 5:04 pm |
    • ME II

      Apologies for the copypasta, but these things get so tiresome.

      "The sediments on Mount St. Helens were unconsolidated volcanic ash, which is easily eroded. The Grand Canyon was carved into harder materials, including well-consolidated sandstone and limestone, hard metamorphosed sediments (the Vishnu schist), plus a touch of relatively recent basalt.

      The walls of the Mount St. Helens canyon slope 45 degrees. The walls of the Grand Canyon are vertical in places.

      The canyon was not entirely formed suddenly. The canyon along Toutle River has a river continuously contributing to its formation. Another canyon also cited as evidence of catastrophic erosion is Engineer's Canyon, which was formed via water pumped out of Spirit Lake over several days by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

      The streams flowing down Mount St. Helens flow at a steeper grade than the Colorado River does, allowing greater erosion.

      The Grand Canyon (and canyons further up and down the Colorado River) is more than 100,000 times larger than the canyon on Mount St. Helens. The two are not really comparable."
      ( http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH581_1.html)

      January 29, 2013 at 5:07 pm |
    • bill

      I was referring to carbon, at 60,000 years old. more like 5,000 +- 40,000

      January 29, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • ME II

      Around 99.284% of natural uranium is uranium-238, which has a half-life of 1.41×1017 seconds (4.468×109 years, or 4.468 billion years)
      ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-238)

      others at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_radioactive_isotopes_by_half-life

      January 29, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
    • bill

      http://www.creationtoday.org/radiometric-dating-is-it-accurate/

      January 29, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
    • ME II

      Radiocarbon dating is only accurate back 60,000-100,000 years, but other isotopes go back much further.

      argon-argon (Ar-Ar)
      iodine-xenon (I-Xe)
      lanthanum-barium (La-Ba)
      lead-lead (Pb-Pb)
      lutetium-hafnium (Lu-Hf)
      neon-neon (Ne-Ne)
      rhenium-osmium (Re-Os)
      uranium-lead-helium (U-Pb-He)
      uranium-uranium (U-U)
      ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating )

      January 29, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
    • ME II

      @bill,

      "We believe that the great Flood in the days of Noah was a literal worldwide flood exactly as recorded in Genesis 6-8."
      ( http://www.creationtoday.org/about/statement-of-faith/ )

      "No apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and science, can be valid if it contradicts Scripture."
      ( http://www.creationtoday.org/about/statement-of-faith/ )

      How do you trust the logic or evidence of a site that blatantly states basically that it considers some evidence invalid?

      January 29, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
    • Susan StoHelit

      Ah, time for the Gish Gallop.

      It's this fun tactic, where they start copying and pasting this and that, and when you get close to finally explaining a subject down to an elementary degree – they change the target to another copy and paste of a new creationist blurb, running along until you're wiped out, and they've done little work. Personally, I do as much work as they do – if it's asserted without evidence, it's dismissed without evidence. If it's a cut and paste from a website, I point them to another website, where they can do their own research – if they can ask their own question after reading that shows comprehension and an actual desire to understand, THAT I'm willing to work with.

      January 29, 2013 at 6:04 pm |
    • ME II

      @Susan StoHelit,
      Actually, I started the copypasta to rebut young earth claims. My apologies.

      January 29, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • Susan StoHelit

      I've no issue with copy paste – just with a full Gish Gallop – where wall of text that is not understood by the person pasting it is dropped on, and there's no interest nor understanding of the answers.

      January 29, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      I'm sorry to disappoint you bill, but potassium-argon dating can date rocks back as far as 4 billions years old. I'm sure your creationist friends will just simply say. "Oh, no, that's not true. It's just not true. We say it is not true, therefore it is not true."

      But your proclamations do not actually change reality, and also don't change the minds of most educated people either.

      January 29, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
    • Gir

      I don't understand. Just googling ANY of these creationist claims brings up a page full of objections, and maybe one or two articles from pseudoscientific-endorsing propaganda pushers like ICR. Why do you creationists not read rejoinders to creationists? And why do you post your filth here without doing so? Do you think we're stupid?

      January 29, 2013 at 7:15 pm |
    • End Religion

      Gir, it is a time-honored profession; peddling snake oil. And the time-honored 27% of the population who are complete rubes. They may be rubes but if you dangle something shiny in front of them they will open their wallets for you.

      January 29, 2013 at 9:57 pm |
    • bill

      lime stone isn't hard.

      January 29, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
    • ME II

      @bill,
      "lime stone isn't hard."
      This is your response?

      Limestone is not hard compared to other stone, you are correct. However, when compared to "...landslide and pyroclastic debris..." it is extremely hard. That is the material that was eroded in the "little 'Grand Canyon of the Toutle River'"
      ( http://www.icr.org/article/mt-st-helens-catastrophism/ )

      Additionally, are you claiming that sandstone, the Vishnu schist, and basalt are not hard?

      January 30, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • WASP

      @bill: yes it is possible the grand canyon happen over a short amount of time;geologically saying.
      during the last ice-age glaciers were known to have areas with huge amounts of melted water held back by walls of ice.
      when these walls of ice were worn away over time they would "pop" gushing out tens of millions of gallons of water.
      which also explains HUGE boulders found in the mid-west that were of a different sedimentary content than the near by rock. these boulders were carried in huge gushes of water just like a pebble is carried down a stream.

      it is surmized that these very events are what caused the "flood myths" passed down from generation to generation. researchers found at the bottom of the mediterrainian that the water level was much lower thousands of years ago as opposed to the sea level at that time; given the appearence of the "rock of gibraltor" a natural dam between the much higher ocean and much lower mediterrainian would indicate that the nature dam burst and the lower valley flooded rapidly. the natives of the surrounding area would have panicked and blamed gods for this event, not understanding that it was a natural event, not supernatural. as these natives moved out and traded with other natives these stories would have become more colorful and exagerated over time to become THE GREAT FLOOD myths of today.

      history has alway debunked tribal myths from ages ago.

      January 30, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.