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January 23rd, 2013
05:17 AM ET

Belief Blog's Morning Speed Read for Wednesday, January 23, 2013

By Arielle Hawkins, CNN

Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.

From the Blog:

CNN: Obama thanked for living in 'glass house' at National Prayer Service
On the day following his ceremonial inauguration, President Barack Obama received warm praise Tuesday while attending an interfaith prayer service at the National Cathedral. Rev. Adam Hamilton, senior pastor at the United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in Kansas, said Americans should "more often" give thanks to Obama and those who serve in higher elected office.

CNN: Group: U.S. pastor is shut out of his trial in Iran
An American Christian pastor being tried in Iran for his religious beliefs was "shut out" of his own trial Tuesday, a religious group said. The attorney for Saeed Abedini also was kept from appearing in the Iranian court, said the American Center for Law and Justice. Abedini, who was born in Iran and now lives in Idaho, has been jailed since September, the group said.

Tweet of the Day:

Belief on TV:

Photo of the Day:

Thai and foreign Buddhist monks light candles while chanting at Buddhamonthon in Nakorn Pathom province on January 22, 2013. 1,128 Buddhist monks from Dhammakaya temple lit candles in homage of Lord Buddha.

Enlightening Reads:

BBC: Homophobic 'vigilante' video appears online
A video has appeared online showing men shouting homophobic abuse at another man in east London, telling him to "get out of here" as "it is a Muslim area". Last week, the East London Mosque condemned men shown in another video posted on the internet claiming to be "patrolling" Whitechapel.

Los Angeles Times: Clergy abuse victims: 'We demand justice'
Standing a few feet outside the doors of the Los Angeles Archdiocese headquarters, clergy abuse victims who settled with the church in a landmark $660-million settlement called for the release of the documents it agreed to make public in 2007. The demands come in the wake of internal Catholic church records released Monday in a separate claim. Those memos, written in 1986 and 1987 by Archbishop Roger M. Mahony and Msgr. Thomas J. Curry, then the archdiocese's chief advisor on sex abuse cases, displayed a concerted effort by officials to shield abusers from police.

New York Times: Therapist Sentenced to 103 Years for Child Sexual Abuse
An unlicensed therapist and respected member of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish community in Brooklyn was sentenced on Tuesday to 103 years in prison for repeatedly sexually abusing a young woman, beginning the attacks when she was 12.

JTA: Likud leads, but rise of Yesh Atid, Jewish Home bode bumpy road ahead for Netanyahu
His party shrunk, his opponents grew and his challengers multiplied. But with the results in, it seems Benjamin Netanyahu survived the Knesset elections on Jan. 22 to serve another term as prime minister. A political newcomer, Naftali Bennett, is likely to push Netanyahu to the right on security issues. His Jewish Home party, a successor to the National Religious Party, quadrupled its representation from three to 12 seats.Together with the Sephardic Orthodox Shas party and the haredi Orthodox United Torah Judaism, the right-wing Knesset bloc will hold 62 of the Knesset’s 120 seats – a slim majority.

BBC: Why are there seven days in a week?
The popularity of the seven-day week – and its prominence in modern calendars – can be traced to its adoption by the Romans. They named the days of the week after the pagan gods of Rome, the Sun and the Moon. Roman Emperor Constantine formally adopted the seven-day week in AD 321, it had been in use informally since the first century BC. A Christian convert Constantine made Sunday – the Christian Sabbath – the first day of the week, and Saturday – the Jewish day of rest – as the last.

Quotes of the Day:

God has given you a unique gift, Mr. President. Unlike any other president that we've had, you have the ability to cast vision and inspire people. You should have been a preacher.

– Rev. Adam Hamilton – Sr. Pastor at United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in
Leawood, Kansas – speaking at the National Prayer Service on Tuesday, January 22, 2013.

Let us join together in prayer. Dear God in this room stand women and men of different beliefs, different understandings of how you reveal yourself, how you reveal your will and your desire to us. Yet at this moment our nation joins with us in prayer and supplication that despite political differences within these chambers, and despite the fact that at times we may take for granted things that are unique to our American democracy, that we be united in hope and aspiration for the future of our nation… Our nation prays with us as we ask that our leaders be endowed with wisdom. That they may know at which path they should move our nation. With courage that they may go against their own for the necessary of the common good of our beloved America. With resolve that their not tired but move unrelenting toward that common good.

– excerpt from Rev. Luis Cortes Jr. prayer at the Inaugural Luncheon on January 21, 2013. Rev. Cortes Jr. is the President of Esperanza USA, the largest Hispanic faith-based community-development corporation in the country.

Join the conversation…

My Take: Obama delivers Lincoln's Third Inaugural
Stephen Prothero, a Boston University religion scholar and author of "The American Bible: How Our Words Unite, Divide, and Define a Nation," labeled President Barack Obama’s second inauguration as “Lincoln’s Third Inaugural” becuase “the words of our 44th president were animated throughout by the vision of our 16th.”

- A. Hawkins

Filed under: Uncategorized

soundoff (239 Responses)
  1. lionlylamb

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaGOh0d8hM&w=640&h=390]

    January 23, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • Sideways progress

      LaLa has gone from long pointless posts to long irrelevant videos.

      January 23, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
  2. truth be told

    So called atheists lie all the time. Knowing this morally decent people can relegate atheist type comments to the waste bin of unnessesary language,where they belong. There is no use for an atheist in this world or the next.

    January 23, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
  3. Live4Him

    @hawaiiguest : Nowhere in the report did I see that. By the way, are you going to address my point on DNA extraction?

    Then perhaps you should keep reading. The information is out there. I don't know what your point was (don't remember), so I'll attempt to address it here. Goggle 'dino soft tissue genetic sequence'. Scientists often use the latter term as a subsitute for DNA.

    January 23, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • sam

      You may need to seek help with your obsession. Or, your inability to realize you're just wrong.

      January 23, 2013 at 5:41 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      @sam
      Secound that.

      January 23, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • Free Nuts

      Oops dame thumb second

      January 23, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      If it's out there, then link to it. I haven't seen it in the reports, and you just saying "IT'S THERE IT'S THERE" doesn't actually accomplish anything. And as for DNA extraction, we are able to extract and sequence the DNA from fossils up to 100,000 years old.

      January 23, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
  4. Live4Him

    @myweightinwords : As a writer, I like to focus word usage so that it is accurate. Mythology shouldn't be offensive

    Mythology implies a known fal.sehood, so it is offensive.

    --

    @myweightinwords : Religion isn't accurate, because multiple religions share the basic mythology.

    There are more than a 1000 religions out there and we're not specifying which one, so religion is accurate.

    --

    @myweightinwords : But, are you saying that you didn't believe in god because you wanted to keep having s.ex? (side note: I hope you were using protection)

    I'm saying that I knew that my behavior was wrong (not just s.ex) and I didn't want to admit it.

    --

    @myweightinwords : What evidence did you examine? And I was more interested in why you decided god didn't exist than why you decided Christ did.

    Honestly, I didn't do any research. I just couldn't reject the Bible without cause (yes, I know). I've since learned many other sources (beyond the Bible, including from those op.po.sing Christianity), but this didn't factor into my in.itial dec.ision. How many people are really rational at this stage in life?

    --

    @myweightinwords : At 15-16-17 you were thinking about a final judgment?

    Final judgment means that all actions are graded. I wanted to pretend the actions I was doing THEN would not be con.de.mned later. I wanted to believe I was living right. No one wants to commit an act KNOWING in advance that action is wrong.

    BTW – I'm heading out soon.

    January 23, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
    • .

      Live4Him = Topher

      January 23, 2013 at 5:38 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Mythology implies a known fal.sehood, so it is offensive.

      I'm sorry to keep harping on it, but you are wrong. The dictionary definition is:

      1) A collection of myths, esp. one belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition.
      2) A set of stories or beliefs about a particular person, institution, or situation

      And a myth isn't a lie. The dictionary definition is:
      1) A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically...
      2) Such stories collectively.

      There should be no offense. There is none meant.

      There are more than a 1000 religions out there and we're not specifying which one, so religion is accurate.

      Then Roman Catholicism is the same religion as Jews? The Mormons are the same religion as the Seventh Day Adventists? Quakers are the same religion as Pentecostal snake handlers? Muslims are the same religion as the Episcopalians?

      They share a commonality, to be sure, but they are different religions.

      I'm saying that I knew that my behavior was wrong (not just s.ex) and I didn't want to admit it.

      But the question becomes then, was your behavior wrong because you'd been raised within the Christian thought that it was wrong? Or is it objectively wrong?

      Also, as someone who believes very different from you, but firmly believes in right and wrong, I find that when I do something that I know is wrong, I do not enjoy it. I do not want to continue to do it. I want to correct the wrong, make amends if needed and learn from the experience.

      If you honestly believed that what you were doing was wrong, why would you want to continue to do it?

      Honestly, I didn't do any research. I just couldn't reject the Bible without cause (yes, I know). I've since learned many other sources (beyond the Bible, including from those op.po.sing Christianity), but this didn't factor into my in.itial dec.ision. How many people are really rational at this stage in life?

      Depends on the kid, I guess. At 17, I was seriously studying for the ministry, immersed in studies of the bible and hungry for more information. I studied archaeology and Greek and Hebrew (never enough to really master the languages, mores the pity, but I wore out my Strong's concordance and went through two Greek lexicons and a Hebrew text book). Unfortunately, all of my books were chosen for me by the pastor I was studying under, so none of them ever challenged what I believed, just lead me deeper down the path.

      It wasn't until I was nearly 20 that I discovered oppositional thought that challenged me.

      Final judgment means that all actions are graded. I wanted to pretend the actions I was doing THEN would not be con.de.mned later. I wanted to believe I was living right. No one wants to commit an act KNOWING in advance that action is wrong.

      I have to go back to my previous point then. If it was WRONG, how could you like it? Forget the bible, forget apologetics, forget dogma. How does doing something your gut tells you is wrong feel good?

      See, for me, it was while I was a Christian, while I was teaching the faith, witnessing, telling people that they were going to die in their sin unless they repent, telling them that what they were doing was wrong, challenging their belief in science and their support for abortion and homosexuality and promiscuity and rock music...I knew deep, deep down that what I was doing was wrong. I could feel the pain I caused people, the confusion and anger.

      And it hurt me. It left deep, spiritual scars on me. And I couldn't keep doing it. I had no choice but to walk away.

      BTW – I'm heading out soon.

      I hope you have a good evening.

      January 23, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Myweightinwords,

      Being a former student of the word you should know that s.e.x. within marriage is not wrong. So, of course the act feels good and right, God made it that way.

      Now I know the humanist philosophy is that as long as it is two consenting adults then it is ok, but I think there are several reasons God made these rules.

      The first one that comes to mind is the potential result of the act, children. If we go around doing it with anybody we want and then here comes a child. God wants the biological mom and dad to raise the child, not strangers. Now I know a loving person can love a child who is not their biologically, but if you have children of your own then you also realize that there is a superior bond involving flesh and blood.

      Another is, the intimacy involved insures the couple will stay together not only for the benefit of their offspring but for each other as well.

      God judges sin. We don’t like to talk about it, but it is true. God’s judgment on the act outside of marriage is easy to recognize. Consider the unwanted pregnancies, abortions, diseases, and emotional distress of jilted lovers. I noticed you mentioned protection, did you know that most women who have an abortion used protection?

      So, you can make the humanist case, that there is nothing wrong with promiscuity, but I hope you can also see that God had our best interest in mind when he told us it was wrong.

      January 23, 2013 at 7:54 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Hi Robert, I hope you are well.

      Being a former student of the word you should know that s.e.x. within marriage is not wrong. So, of course the act feels good and right, God made it that way.

      I know that the book is interpreted that way, yes. I also know that the definition of "marriage" in that book includes many things that we today find to be wrong.

      And if we're going with the "god made it feel good" line of argument, why is it that a man's prostate, located inside his anus, produces some of the strongest orgasms when stroked if god meant for homosexuality to be wrong?

      Now I know the humanist philosophy is that as long as it is two consenting adults then it is ok, but I think there are several reasons God made these rules.

      Your god, your rules. My gods don't have a problem with it.

      The first one that comes to mind is the potential result of the act, children.

      Which is why condoms and birth control need to be easily and readily available, so that those who are not ready for children, but are clearly ready for sexual activity can be responsible for themselves.

      If we go around doing it with anybody we want and then here comes a child.

      Not if you are using redundant birth control properly.

      God wants the biological mom and dad to raise the child, not strangers. Now I know a loving person can love a child who is not their biologically, but if you have children of your own then you also realize that there is a superior bond involving flesh and blood.

      I do not believe that. Of course, I don't have kids of my own (despite the fact that I've had sex, because I'm responsible for my actions and always use protection). When an adult takes a child into their life voluntarily, when they bring a child into their family, they are performing an act of love that far surpasses an accidental failure in responsibility that results in a child they didn't want and aren't ready for.

      Another is, the intimacy involved insures the couple will stay together not only for the benefit of their offspring but for each other as well.

      Intimacy? In my experience intimacy does not come from sex. And sex can happen (and be satisfying) without intimacy. Real intimacy, the kind that ensures that couples will stay together, is emotional. It is about exposing and sharing vulnerability, about opening up parts of yourself that no one else will get to see. It takes trust and courage.

      And intimacy doesn't have to lead to sex either.

      God judges sin. We don’t like to talk about it, but it is true. God’s judgment on the act outside of marriage is easy to recognize.

      Again, your god. Your sin. Not mine. I don't know why you say you don't like to talk about it. On these boards, and in my real life, I'm surrounded by people who do like to talk about it. Usually while telling everyone who isn't them that they're going to hell.

      Consider the unwanted pregnancies, abortions, diseases, and emotional distress of jilted lovers. I noticed you mentioned protection, did you know that most women who have an abortion used protection?

      Do you have statistics to back it up? In most of the cases I am aware of, the women only used one form of birth control and there was a failure. Birth control pills are effective, but can be interrupted. Condoms can fail. It is a lack of education that causes unwanted pregnancy (and thus abortion) in these cases, not promiscuity. Both partners need to take responsibility for protecting against STDs and pregnancy.

      I promise you that if my niece wasn't a lesbian, she would already have an IUD in place and a box of condoms, and she would know how to use them and know to never have sex without one.

      I have theories about the "emotional distress" but this isn't the time or place for them. That just leaves the diseases portion. And again, proper use of condoms and regular medical check ups would curb that problem as well.

      So, you can make the humanist case, that there is nothing wrong with promiscuity, but I hope you can also see that God had our best interest in mind when he told us it was wrong.

      Did I actually say that there is nothing wrong with promiscuity? I don't recall saying that. I did say that simply having sex outside of marriage wasn't promiscuous. Words have meanings. I like to be precise with words.

      January 24, 2013 at 10:49 am |
  5. lunchbreaker

    Anyone curious about the whole dinosaur "soft tissue" issue, read it from the horses mouth. Then you can see how fundies have cherry picked, basically lied, about the facts. Well maybe lie is a bit harsh, misunderstood.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1685849/

    January 23, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • sam

      Science and reason are pretty hard for some...

      January 23, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      I'm not a fundie.

      I embrace science and reason. Possibly more than you do. I don't know what your career is, but I think I embrace those things more than most people.

      And I believe in God. And try to follow Jesus Christ.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:49 pm |
    • New Athiest

      @Wild_Thang
      Can you address any of this? It seemed to scare Lionlylamb away:

      I do not believe that a god as worshipped by the Christians would condemn so many people.
      For example: Anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus, get baptized, and worship no other god is damned. The majority of the planet is not Christian and in trouble. So are all the people throughout history who never heard of Jesus.

      I also cannot believe an all-powerful god:
      1) Would give us a book that had so many errors and contradictions
      2) Would set Adam up for failure in a garden named Eden, and hold his sin against everyone ever born.
      3) Would only reveal himself to Moses, and not all of his chosen people.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      > I do not believe that a god as worshipped by the Christians would condemn so many people.

      > For example: Anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus, get baptized, and worship no other god is damned. The majority of the planet is not Christian and in trouble. So are all the people throughout history who never heard of Jesus.

      This is not what I believe.

      I think God loves his creation. Not just those who accept Jesus, get baptized and worship no other god.

      God has a plan of salvation for his whole creation. Not just my part of it.

      He is a god of grace and mercy. That is what Jesus has shown me.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
    • Johnny Blammo

      They do that with all "science" they put forward to claim science proves God. It's always severely distorted, cherry-picked, and misstated. I am never sure it it is because they are so unqualified and intelectually challenged that they are flailing to make sense of things beyond them, or if they are such zealots that they will pervert anything to support the unsupportable.

      But yeah, when lionyloser and Chud start flinging out the science, you know that you are getting the severely mangled misrepresentation of something their lint-brains cannot comprehend . . . but their arrogance makes them believe they do understand it.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
    • New Athiest

      Thank you Wild_Thang,
      I appreciate an honeest reply to difficult questions.

      UNLIKE the distorted crap some other people want to post in totally different/wrong context.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      Good afternoon Wild_Thang, what does a person's field of work have to do with thier embracing science and logic, and why so presumptious as to question some one when you even cleary stated "possibly" and "I think". To be clear I think the use of the evolution debate is pointless in theology. Whether or not evolution is true does not prove or disprove any particular God. And last time I checked accepting Christ as your savious was the only recquirement to be a Christian, belief in evolution is irrelavent to that.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      Good afternoon to you, too.

      I was being presumptious that it was a cheap shot at people who believe in God when the person who posted "Science and reason are pretty hard for some..."

      I've been in debates with non-believers who seem to think that people who believe in God ignore science, reason and logic.

      Which is not the case.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • sam

      Creation should not require salvation, from anything. That inherently assumes something is wrong with us. The only reason salvation would be required is if someone/thing set up ridiculous rules with loopholes and then forced us to dance. It's a foolish mindset.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      Parts of God's creation includes salvation. It is not required. You can reject it.

      Unless you are perfect, there is something wrong with you. We all fall short of good.

      That is not the only reason for salvation. I can think of other reasons why I would want protection from harm.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @New Athiest : I do not believe that a god as worshipped by the Christians would condemn so many people.

      Which is better, to allow people to choose living apart from God (i.e. love) for eternity or forcing them to live with Him?

      January 23, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      Too bad the god of the bible is not a loving being at all.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • years

      My kids get mad when I have to discipline them. They act selfishly and only think of themselves. I have to make them go into time out. Sometimes I have to sp.ank them. They accuse me of being unloving and mean. It is not easy. But I know I need to discipline them. I am doing this out of love. Maybe our heavenly father is doing something similar?

      January 23, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
    • sam

      >>"Unless you are perfect, there is something wrong with you. We all fall short of good."

      It's this kind of thinking that is screwing up societies all over the planet. What is 'perfect'? There is no such thing. And 'good' is relative.

      January 23, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      You orginally said:

      "That inherently assumes something is wrong with us."

      Do you think there is not inherently something wrong with us?

      Aren't we imperfect beings?

      Nobody is capable of being 100% good. It hasn't happened.

      I would define being 'good' as how God wants us to act.

      Unselfish, giving, loving and caring.

      January 23, 2013 at 5:58 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      Q. What is 'perfect'?

      A. Somebody who does not need God.

      January 23, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Bob Enyart

      Hi lunchbreaker, when you say that we fundamentalists lie/misunderstand the dinosaur soft tissue matter, you reference one of the oldest of the MANY peer-reviewed journal papers that have repeatedly confirmed the existence of original biological material and even endongenous soft tissue (blood vessels, hemoglobin, cartilage, osteocytes, blood cells, etc.) in many different dinosaurs, including tricertatops, T. rex., hadrosaur, and even in archaeopteryx, etc. For a complete catalog of all the primary papers (including the single anti-soft-tissue, 2008 biofilms paper now roundly falsified), just google: dinosaur soft tissue, and you'll find that catalog at the kgov site. (See also there the short-lived Carbon-14 and left-handed amino acids in dinosaur-layer and lower strata!)

      January 24, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • End Religion

      Is this the same Bob Enyart that abuses children and claims their "hearts are lifted" by it?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Enyart

      Is this the same Bob Enyart who was sued and had to change his show's name because people were mysteriously confusing it with an actual science show on NPR?
      http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_22371596

      Really sounds like he was doing Christ's good works there. He apparently doesn't see he helps create more atheists every day.

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ilFvqxtWY&w=640&h=390]

      February 19, 2013 at 5:22 am |
  6. New Athiest

    Belief is not a choice. If it doesn't make sense, you won't believe it.
    Going to church is a choice, as is which church you go to, but if what they tell you there sounds like mythical BS you will not believe in that god.

    January 23, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      1Corinthians 8:5. “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)” 6. “But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.”

      January 23, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
    • New Athiest

      So, there is more than one god. Major contradiction from what the christians teach.
      Thank you for helping me show what BS it is you are preaching.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @New Athiest : Belief is not a choice. If it doesn't make sense, you won't believe it.

      So, do you accept that dino soft tissue falsifies the millions of years since dinosaurs lived?

      January 23, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      You know, you continue to point to the soft tissue, but fail to address the study you're talking about is actually remnants of soft tissue instead of fossilized insides of the bone, which is rare but not unheard of, and does not actually disprove the confirmed fact that the earth is billions of years old. I pointed this ut to you yesterday, and you stopped commenting when I kept pointing out your errors.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
    • New Athiest

      I do not believe that soft dino tissue proves the existance of your god.
      I also do not believe that a god as worshipped by the Christians would condemn so many people.
      For example: Anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus, get baptized, and worship no other god is damned. The majority of the planet is not Christian and in trouble. So are all the people throughout history who never heard of Jesus.

      I also cannot believe an all-powerful god:
      1) Would give us a book that had so many errors and contradictions
      2) Would set Adam up for failure in a garden named Eden, and hold his sin against everyone ever born.
      3) Would only reveal himself to Moses, and not all of his chosen people.

      Additionally, In my opinion, the fact that so many different religions have come and gone invalidates them all.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @New Athiest : So, there is more than one god.

      You obviously don't know the meaning of god in scripture. Let me translate for you: god is ruler. Lord is another translation. So, there are many gods, but only one God of gods (or "Lord of lords" according to traditional Christian sayings).

      January 23, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @hawaiiguest : fail to address the study you're talking about is actually remnants of soft tissue instead of fossilized insides of the bone, which is rare but not unheard of, and does not actually disprove the confirmed fact that the earth is billions of years old.

      That IS my point – it is elastic soft tissue, rather than fossilized remains of soft tissue. It isn't rare, but it would be impossible if dinosaurs died out 65+ millions of years ago. The scientific evidence shows DNA / soft tissue internal chemical bonds would breakdown within 10,000 years in a temperate environment. Since we see this tissue, it proves than some dinos lived less than 10,000 years ago. Therefore, from an objective viewpoint, the earth could be billions of years ago, but the millions of years of evolution have been falsified.

      Second, the scientific method does not "confirm" any facts. It can only falsify the theory that the earth is billion of years old. And there is plenty of evidence that the earth is not billions of years old.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • New Athiest

      @lionlylamb
      I'm still waiting for an answer to some harder questions instead of just hiding behind science you don't understand to disprove a point I didn't make.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @New Athiest : Would give us a book that had so many errors and contradictions

      God provided the original information, but man transmitted it over the ages. This has resulted in over 200,000 scribal errors like the following:

      1) Paul the Apostle vs. the Apostle Paul
      2) He said vs. He did say
      3) his honor vs. his honour

      These don't impact the meaning of the text and therefore the errors are insignificant.

      ----

      @New Athiest : Would set Adam up for failure in a garden named Eden, and hold his sin against everyone ever born.

      You've got several misconceptions. First, you've presumed that God did this with evil intentions. This is like the saying "You cannot make an omlet without breaking the eggs." And you cannot give mankind freewill without giving him the chance to make an error in his decisions.

      Second, original sin is selfishness. Do you know anyone who doesn't act selfish occassionally?

      ----

      @New Athiest : Would only reveal himself to Moses, and not all of his chosen people.

      God has revealed Himself to many people, not just the chosen people.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      I also cannot believe an all-powerful god:
      1) Would give us a book that had so many errors and contradictions
      The Bible is a collection of stories, history, personal letters, poetry, songs, testimonies and geneology. The Bible is not perfect. It can't be. What is important is what it points to: God.

      2) Would set Adam up for failure in a garden named Eden, and hold his sin against everyone ever born.
      That is not how I understand the story. It is a creation story, all civilizations have them. For me it illustrates why humanity seems cursed. But there is hope.

      3) Would only reveal himself to Moses, and not all of his chosen people.
      He needed 1 leader. You had to be pretty remarkable to do what God had planned. And Moses failed in the end. He wasn't allowed into the promised land.

      > Additionally, In my opinion, the fact that so many different religions have come and gone invalidates them all.

      This fact does not change what the gospel of Jesus Christ says to me.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:02 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      Do you even know what you're talking about? It wasn't elastic, soft, or pliable tissue. It needed to be treated first, kind of like rehydrating powdered milk. You're misrepresenting the actual study and facts to fit what you want it to. It was tissue which did not undergo the reminiralization process. If it was as you present it, then we would be able to extract DNA from it, like we can from remains that we date less than 100,000 years old.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • New Athiest

      @lionlylamb
      Good try. Sort of.
      1) I'm not talking typos or grammer. The bible says the world is flat, jesus would return before Paul's death, and the 4 gospels don't all say the resurection happened 3 days after the crucifiction.
      2) No. You're wrong. Original sin is the sin Adam commited. Look it up – try Google maybe?
      3) wrong again – in correct context anyway. God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. Moses had to deliver the message to the rest of the world. Satan, Alah, Thor, Ra, ghosts, Odin, and a whole slew of other 'gods' have revealed themselves to people. If you accept this as true, your entire philosophy is wrong.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      New Atheist,

      MY understanding upon the triune cosmologies of materialized fundaments is basic simplicity. Your bred ineptness roosting within unwilling jargon understandings against such fundamentalisms around cosmologic orders of triune manifestations is of your subversively rancid stupidities found within a fool's materialized interconnected nomenclatures born from your own selfishness agendas regarding your psychic rationale being of a lowered IQ. I may be a fool but I am not foolish enough to doubt and see baron foolhardiness concernments.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      New Atheist,

      If you are insisting on crucifying the Gospels go to blueletterbible.com and quote by copy-N-paste reasoning for you to make confronting issues instead of making unmarked innuendoes without real substance!

      January 23, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @hawaiiguest : It wasn't elastic, soft, or pliable tissue. It needed to be treated first, kind of like rehydrating powdered milk.

      You're either being deliberately obtuse or decieving. Yes, it needed to be "treated" by a demineralization process. Once freed from the surrounding mineral compounds, it was elastic. There are even pictures of the tissue being stretched.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Live

      Nowhere in the report did I see that. By the way, are you going to address my point on DNA extraction?

      January 23, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @New Athiest : @lionlylamb

      I think this was directed to me, so I'm answering it.

      --

      @New Athiest : The bible says the world is flat, jesus would return before Paul's death, and the 4 gospels don't all say the resurection happened 3 days after the crucifiction.

      First, the Bible DOES NOT say the world is flat. Rather, people interpret it in that manner. In Job 26:10, it depict a spherical earth very clearly.

      Second, the Bible DOES NOT say that Jesus would return before Paul's death. It states that He would return before the ge.ner.at.ion who witnessed the end-time signs would pass away.

      Third, they reference a specific day of week: i.e. Sunday, the first day of the week.

      --

      @New Athiest : Original sin is the sin Adam commited. Look it up – try Google maybe?

      Again, you lack understanding. Adam passed on this original sin (i.e. selfishness) to his offspring. We all have it. None of us have a different sin.

      --

      @New Athiest : God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. Moses had to deliver the message to the rest of the world.

      Moses only delivered PART of the message. Each of God's messengers had God revealed to that person.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
  7. Stating the obvious

    I see the Christian robots are cut and pasting their same old schtick verbatim again today. No matter how thoroughly debunked, discredited, and humiliated their nincompoop cliches are, they will happily put them up again the next day.

    For the lie told many times . . . passes for truth if you are Christian or conservative. And tehre is no lie too obvious or absurd for them not to believe

    January 23, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      Nobody on here has caused me to not believe in God. Or to not invite him into my life each morning. It works for me.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • Stating the obvious

      Well of course you haven't changed your belief. That's what zealtory is – no matter how absolute the absense of any evidence to support anything you believe, you still believe it. No matter how many flaws, contradictions, and outright falsehoods are in the Bible, you still believe it.

      That's what narrow-mindedness is: a refusal to consider any and all information that disagrees with an existing opinion.

      Were someone to actually come up with credible evidence proving or implying the existence of a god, I would take it in and adjust my understanding. Religious people generally refuse to do that.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      You kind of sound narrow-minded. You seem to know what all religious people believe.

      I strive to be open-minded. I didn't trust in God until I became more open-minded.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
  8. lionlylamb

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFFl9S39CTM&w=640&h=390]

    Universe The Cosmology Quest Part 1 of 2.wmv

    January 23, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
  9. Live4Him

    @myweightinwords : Tell me about that first personal experience when you believed. Don't worry about the logic, forget about sounding crazy

    Okay, but I'm SURE you will think I crazy then. I'll skim some areas, which aren't important, to give some context. I apoligize in advance for the long, long post.

    Early years:
    I was raised in a Christian home, baptized when I was 6 and later again when I was 11 because I didn't remember the first one. I lead a person to Christ at scout camp when I was 12.

    Teen years:
    I began questioning the existence of Jesus/God when I was in my mid-teens. I was promiscuous, too. Late in my 17th year, I finally concluded that God didn't exist and Jesus did exist but was just an ordinary man – albeit a wise/good person. This is where it starts sounding crazy, so bear with me. (The other atheists can laugh all they want, cuz I'll ignore them.)

    I distinctly remember "hearing" the the words "That's not good enough for what I have planned for you.". I say hearing, but it wasn't with my ears. It was like a dream, where you hear someone say something to you and when you wake up you feel like it WAS said to you in reality. At the time, I was wide awake, driving alone in my car, so this was kind of creepy. Like many atheist on these forums would do, I quickly dismissed this event as a day-dream. Yet, it persisted. Things began to get even crazier in my life. I started seeing minor future events – like the cop coming over the hill ahead and other minor events to anyone except my own life. This continued for about three years, until I was so over-whelmed that I cried out "Enough, I believe in you. You don't need to keep showing me these visions." I also remember His response: "Okay, but I'll always be with you, even if you don't feel it." I haven't had these visions since then, but the impact was significant on my life.

    Adult years:
    I continued to live my life enjoying all the pleasures, while knowing that God was real. I accepted both abortion and ho.mo.s.ex.uality without a problem. I had some conflicts on these issues with other Christians, but I still didn't see any issues. As time passed, I joined a forum which challenged these beliefs in light of traditional Christian views. As I defended my position, I was forced to move to the right slowly.

    I am not a person who could argue a point subjectively. So, I wanted to know the truth. What was the evidence? I searched and searched. I met many fake experts on the forums. Unfortunately for them, I DID have the scientific background in engineering and statistics – even though I normally don't claim this background. So I was able to decimate their arguments on scientific grounds – as long as I have the underlying facts to support me. I also studied every issue within the scriptures to reason out their meanings, taking it to the original Greek and Hebrew (and Aramaic) words. Nothing was going to prevent me from finding the evidence / truth.

    The quest for these facts forced me to reevaluate my positions on Biblical accuracy, abortion, gays, and similar contentious issues surrounding Christianity. I have probably forgotten more facts on these topics than most of those on the forums even know. But the experience has grown me as a Christian and forced me into being a conservative Christian. I, for one, vowed to follow the facts regardless of where they led, and I continue on these forums to find out if there is any new evidence that I need to consider. I also am now teaching Christian Apologetics to others.

    So, this is a long and crazy story, but its the story of my life.

    January 23, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Live4Him,

      Very good testimony, I also went through a time of rebellion and doubt. I think a lot of Christians do. I love to hear the testimonies from those who were converted early in life and never looked back, but it isn’t mine either. For those who will be honest, search, and research, doubt can actually be the biggest faith builder.

      The key for me was also personal supernatural experiences. So, what would be your suggestion for some of those who are now in doubt, who have yet to have their faith reaffirmed by an experience with God, because there are many on here who are at that point, or something similar to it?

      January 23, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Christianity is a form of SEVERE mental illness

      There is help out there.

      January 23, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
    • Live4Him

      Robert Brown : So, what would be your suggestion for some of those who are now in doubt, who have yet to have their faith reaffirmed by an experience with God, because there are many on here who are at that point, or something similar to it?

      I don't know. I do know that any number of facts won't amount to a hill of beans unless the person is willing to change their views. However, for those who are willing to change, an in-depth review of the facts would certainly help. After all, several avid atheists went down the road to prove Christianity to be wrong, only to convert to Christianity (CS Lewis, Josh McDowell, etc.). But this road does mandate objectivity – which most people don't have. I think my early life, where I was frequently criticized, forced me to be highly objective (overly, in fact). But, most people don't have that background / defense mechanism.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      Thanks for sharing. God helped me overcome a nasty addiction problem; I heard a voice, not audible – let me know he was there. I wasn't instantly cured of my addiction, but I started to find an inner strength that has kept me clean for 2 years now.

      God is so good.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • What IF

      I heard a voice too - it whispered my name and said, "It's NOTHING like they say. They are all wrong. Live your life as best as you can and do not worry about it."

      January 23, 2013 at 3:02 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      First, thank you for sharing. On this forum it isn't always easy to speak about the spiritual side of your belief. I am going to address some of your post, and I want you to know that I am not attacking, I am not trying to prove anything or take anything away from you. I'm looking for understanding...of you, of what you believe and why.

      And for the record, I'm not an atheist. I am a theist of some kind....though I'm not comfortable with many of the labels out there...my belief about deity is complex and includes some aspects of animism, polytheism, pantheism and panentheism. For ease in most conversations I say I'm Pagan.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Wild_Thang : I started to find an inner strength that has kept me clean for 2 years now.

      Its not an easy path, but it is the most rewarding! Comments like this also encourage me in my walk.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      @Live4Him,

      Okay, but I'm SURE you will think I crazy then. I'll skim some areas, which aren't important, to give some context. I apoligize in advance for the long, long post.

      Like I said, ignore them. Only you can judge that which only you have witnessed.

      Early years:
      I was raised in a Christian home, baptized when I was 6 and later again when I was 11 because I didn't remember the first one. I lead a person to Christ at scout camp when I was 12.

      So, this is the mythology (not meant to be derogatory, simply meaning a collection of stories/ideas/beliefs) of your first education then. I suspected that much.

      Teen years:
      I began questioning the existence of Jesus/God when I was in my mid-teens.

      Here is an example of where you go too fast, jump from a simple statement into a complex swirl of explanation. My interest doesn't lie in your behavior, but in your belief. What led you to question the existence of god? How old were you?

      I was promiscuous, too.

      I'm not sure what that has to do with the rest, but your inclusion of it here interests me. Can you define promiscuous to me? I'm betting our definitions don't exactly match.

      Late in my 17th year, I finally concluded that God didn't exist and Jesus did exist but was just an ordinary man – albeit a wise/good person.

      What made you decide that? Was it driven entirely by teenage rebellion? Was it something you spent time studying? Was it influenced by the people in your life?

      This is where it starts sounding crazy, so bear with me. (The other atheists can laugh all they want, cuz I'll ignore them.)

      Like I said, forget them. I asked the question and I don't consider your answer crazy.

      I distinctly remember "hearing" the the words "That's not good enough for what I have planned for you.". I say hearing, but it wasn't with my ears. It was like a dream, where you hear someone say something to you and when you wake up you feel like it WAS said to you in reality. At the time, I was wide awake, driving alone in my car, so this was kind of creepy.

      Any time a voice says something about plans for you it can be creepy. Even if the voice is coming from an actual person standing in front of you. In my experience.

      Like many atheist on these forums would do, I quickly dismissed this event as a day-dream.

      I think most people, regardless of belief always brush off the first experience...unless it is so profound that they can't.

      ...TBD...

      January 23, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @myweightinwords : I'm looking for understanding...of you, of what you believe and why. ... I am a theist of some kind....though I'm not comfortable with many of the labels out there...my belief about deity is complex and includes some aspects of animism, polytheism, pantheism and panentheism. For ease in most conversations I say I'm Pagan.

      Unless you are willing to change, do not go down this path. Because if you search for the truth, you'll find it. If you find it, you will be uncomfortable or worse until you change. And you're right, forums are not the place to do soul-searching. You'll be mocked and ridiculed if you even APPEAR to be a Christian. Once, I was where you are now.

      However, if you really want to go down this path, I'll be glad to point you to many of the facts.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
    • Topher

      Thanks for sharing, everyone. It's good to know I have brothers and sisters in Christ here on these message boards.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @myweightinwords : So, this is the mythology (not meant to be derogatory, simply meaning a collection of stories/ideas/beliefs) of your first education then. I suspected that much.

      Mythology IS offensive. Lets use religion instead. After all, the definition is "a set of beliefs".

      ---

      @myweight : What led you to question the existence of god? How old were you?

      I honestly don't know. I know that I began to doubt early in my teens or maybe even pre-teen. But, I didn't become conscious of this doubt until I was 15 (or at least admit to myself that I was doubting). I think the reason I began to doubt was the behavior of my parents – but this is just speculation.

      ---

      @myweight : Can you define promiscuous to me? I'm betting our definitions don't exactly match.

      S.ex (including petting) outside of marriage – i.e. without commmitment. The reason I mention it is that I was behaving in a "worldly" manner and desired to justify my behavior, rather than condemn my behavior.

      ---

      @myweight : What made you decide that? Was it driven entirely by teenage rebellion? Was it something you spent time studying? Was it influenced by the people in your life?

      There is plenty of evidence that Jesus, the man, existed. I couldn't ignore this evidence. However, this didn't necessarily mean that Jesus was God. So, I compromised – He was a good man. Again, I wanted to avoid condemning my own behavior. If there was no Final Judgment, then I wasn't doing anything wrong.

      ---

      @myweight : Any time a voice says something about plans for you it can be creepy. Even if the voice is coming from an actual person standing in front of you.

      Try driving down the road with no one in the car with you. :) "Oh – sh.. What did I get myself into? He cannot be real!" That was my immediate thought.

      ---

      @myweight : I think most people, regardless of belief always brush off the first experience...unless it is so profound that they can't.

      Even when it is "so profound" they can. I did for almost two years before I started thinking that the experience might be real. After all, what would a "Supreme God" want with me? What could I contribute to Him? Nada.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Yet, it persisted. Things began to get even crazier in my life. I started seeing minor future events – like the cop coming over the hill ahead and other minor events to anyone except my own life. This continued for about three years, until I was so over-whelmed that I cried out "Enough, I believe in you. You don't need to keep showing me these visions." I also remember His response: "Okay, but I'll always be with you, even if you don't feel it." I haven't had these visions since then, but the impact was significant on my life.

      If I may, what led you to believe that these things were proof of god? Did these visions allow you to help others? Did they have a meaning beyond driving you crazy?

      How did you know it was the Christian god? Or did you assume it was because that was the framework that you understood?

      Again, I mean no disrespect. I am genuinely curious.

      Adult years:
      I continued to live my life enjoying all the pleasures, while knowing that God was real.

      What does this mean? Sorry, it's just really vague. Were you going to church? What, exactly, did you believe about this god you believed was real? Did you ever consider he might not be the Christian god you expected him to be?

      I accepted both abortion and ho.mo.s.ex.uality without a problem. I had some conflicts on these issues with other Christians, but I still didn't see any issues.

      Were you a Christian? Or were you considering yourself one because it was all you really understood? If you did consider yourself Christian, how did you reconcile your stands on abortion and homosexuality with what others believed? (there is, of course a further conversation that follows that, as to how you now reconcile your different opinion with those Christians who support abortion and homosexuality...but let's leave that for now).

      As time passed, I joined a forum which challenged these beliefs in light of traditional Christian views. As I defended my position, I was forced to move to the right slowly.

      Forced? By what? What did you study? How did it affect what you believed? How much were you influenced by other believers? Did you ever actually talk to anybody in the LGBT community? Particularly LGBT Christians? What about women who had abortions and were in better life positions because of it?

      I am not a person who could argue a point subjectively.

      Ah, but sometimes subjectivity is all we have, especially when we're talking about religion, politics and morality.

      So, I wanted to know the truth. What was the evidence?

      Evidence for what?

      I searched and searched.

      What were you looking for? Where were you looking? How did you verify whatever facts you found? How did they change you and what you believed?

      If you were presented with evidence that contradicted what you believe today, would it change your beliefs?

      I also studied every issue within the scriptures to reason out their meanings, taking it to the original Greek and Hebrew (and Aramaic) words. Nothing was going to prevent me from finding the evidence / truth.

      I'm curious how it is you decided that the scriptures were right, that they were scripture at all. We seemed to have glossed over that. If you put the bible in a place of authority of some kind, why? What convinced you it was more than a collection of faith stories of a people who lived a long time ago in a place far away?

      The quest for these facts forced me to reevaluate my positions on Biblical accuracy, abortion, gays, and similar contentious issues surrounding Christianity.

      I went on a similar quest in my mid twenties.

      I have probably forgotten more facts on these topics than most of those on the forums even know.

      You might be surprised. Take the time to actually converse with people around here, not just hurl theology at them. Listen to them, don't just look to tear their arguments apart. You might be surprised to find out just how much others have studied and learned.

      But the experience has grown me as a Christian and forced me into being a conservative Christian. I, for one, vowed to follow the facts regardless of where they led, and I continue on these forums to find out if there is any new evidence that I need to consider. I also am now teaching Christian Apologetics to others.

      It always intrigues me when I find someone with whom I share a lot of "early years" similarities, who seems to have studied the same as I have, and yet have ended up in a very, very different place.

      So, this is a long and crazy story, but its the story of my life.

      Again, thank you for sharing. I hope you will answer my questions and engage in further conversation.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • Wild_Thang

      > Its not an easy path, but it is the most rewarding! Comments like this also encourage me in my walk.

      Life is still a struggle, but I have serenity in my life now. I didn't have it before. Best to you.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      @L4H,

      Unless you are willing to change, do not go down this path. Because if you search for the truth, you'll find it. If you find it, you will be uncomfortable or worse until you change. And you're right, forums are not the place to do soul-searching. You'll be mocked and ridiculed if you even APPEAR to be a Christian. Once, I was where you are now.

      However, if you really want to go down this path, I'll be glad to point you to many of the facts.

      Ah, you have misunderstood my purpose. I am very secure in what I believe to be true, and I examine it regularly against my experience and the evidence/truth I find on my journey.

      I am looking to understand you and how it is you ended up somewhere very different than I did when we have some very similar backstories and have studied the same issues/materials/etc.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      @L4H,

      Mythology IS offensive. Lets use religion instead. After all, the definition is "a set of beliefs".

      As a writer, I like to focus word usage so that it is accurate. Mythology shouldn't be offensive, unless you are applying a meaning to it that isn't meant. Religion isn't accurate, because multiple religions share the basic mythology. If you can think of another accurate word I would gladly use it.

      I honestly don't know. I know that I began to doubt early in my teens or maybe even pre-teen. But, I didn't become conscious of this doubt until I was 15 (or at least admit to myself that I was doubting). I think the reason I began to doubt was the behavior of my parents – but this is just speculation.

      Fair enough. That time in our lives is kind of a mess of hormones, changes, weird body stuff and all the rest. Easy to lose specific thoughts and influences in that.

      S.ex (including petting) outside of marriage – i.e. without commmitment. The reason I mention it is that I was behaving in a "worldly" manner and desired to justify my behavior, rather than condemn my behavior.

      Ah, I suspected at much. To me the word "promiscuous" has a meaning well beyond just having sex. And, I don't include petting in sex.

      But, are you saying that you didn't believe in god because you wanted to keep having sex? (side note: I hope you were using protection)

      There is plenty of evidence that Jesus, the man, existed. I couldn't ignore this evidence.

      What evidence did you examine? And I was more interested in why you decided god didn't exist than why you decided Christ did.

      Again, I wanted to avoid condemning my own behavior. If there was no Final Judgment, then I wasn't doing anything wrong.

      At 15-16-17 you were thinking about a final judgment? I think it would be more accurate to say that you were NOT thinking about a final judgment, as most teenagers.

      Try driving down the road with no one in the car with you. "Oh – sh.. What did I get myself into? He cannot be real!" That was my immediate thought.

      I've had my own experiences with voices and what have you. So, I get it.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      My lunch is over and I need to get back to work, but I'll try to check in again later.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:04 pm |
  10. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Why must non-human animals suffer and die?

    Topher- "In what context? In that ALL things die? Or do you mean in the sacrificial way?"

    In the ordinary way. Why do animals suffer and die as we do? This is a question on Christian theology.

    Sorry about the flu. Hope you and your wife get well soon.

    January 23, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • Topher

      Tom, Tom, the Other One

      "Why must non-human animals suffer and die?"

      First, thanks, dude.

      Simple answer: because of the fall. When God created everything, there was no death or suffering. But when Adam sinned, death entered the world as part of the curse. Genesis Chapter 3 says even the ground is cursed.

      Romans 8 says ... "For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now."

      January 23, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Creation covers a lot of territory. Suffering and death everywhere in the Universe are the results of our sin?

      January 23, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Topher

      Tom, Tom, the Other One

      "Creation covers a lot of territory. Suffering and death everywhere in the Universe are the results of our sin?"

      Yes.

      January 23, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      The God of Israel's logic, I suppose, that all suffering and death everywhere should wait on his ability to correct our sin.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
    • Topher

      This will all be fixed, yes, if that's what you mean. After Christ's return, He will create a "new heaven and a new earth" and things will be as before the fall.

      January 23, 2013 at 4:11 pm |
  11. Topher

    Good morning, everyone! Any questions on Christian theology?

    January 23, 2013 at 11:33 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Good morning, Topher. I hope all is well with you.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:44 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Why must non-human animals suffer and die?

      January 23, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • Topher

      myweightinwords

      Fighting the remnants of the flu, but I'm doing better than I deserve. :)

      Hope you are well.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • Topher

      Tom, Tom, the Other One

      "Why must non-human animals suffer and die?"

      In what context? In that ALL things die? Or do you mean in the sacrificial way?

      January 23, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
    • midwest rail

      The flu bug that is going around seems to be particularly nasty this year. Feel better.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:06 pm |
    • Pete

      The flu, now there is evolution in action.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Well if they have any, you'd be the LAST person they should be asking.
      Where did you get your degree in Theology ?
      Theology is, (as they say), for those who are too dim-witted to study Philosophy.
      Why is it, any belieber thinks they are competent to "teach" Theology ?

      January 23, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      I do have a question. Why did an ancient po'd deity require his son to die so he could feel better ? Why not just say "I forgive you" ?

      January 23, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • Science

      Should have gotten his flu shot, works better than...... at least it works around 59% of the time .

      January 23, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      @Topher

      Fighting the remnants of the flu, but I'm doing better than I deserve.

      The flu this years seems to be an ugly one. And it doesn't let go easily. I know someone who thought she was over it, relapsed and ended up in the hospital. Be careful.

      Hope you get to feeling better soon.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • Akira

      Oh, that flu is nasty! It won't go away!
      It just lingers and lingers and lingers...I feel miserablle!!

      January 23, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
    • Topher

      myweightinwords

      Yes, my poor wife had it so bad last week ... we twice saw a doctor at the clinic before we ended up in the ER.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • Topher

      Akira

      Feel better!

      January 23, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
    • Akira

      Thanks, Topher, I'm trying!

      January 23, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • Henry Jones Jr.

      "Any questions on Christian theology?"

      Same one I always have. How can people be so stupid and deluded to actually believe it is true?

      January 23, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
  12. myweightinwords

    Live4Him,

    Let's try this. Forget for the moment creation, forget logical arguments.

    Instead, tell me about you. Tell me about that first personal experience when you believed. Don't worry about the logic, forget about sounding crazy (and ignore the others who will likely razz you over it...no one can deny your personal experience, they weren't there), don't try to paint it in intellectual terms.

    January 23, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • Live4Him

      Sure, give me some time to pull it together.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:38 am |
  13. lionlylamb

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh_IbZo7_VI&w=640&h=390]

    January 23, 2013 at 10:52 am |
    • Brian

      This is interesting. It certainly makes one wonder about how everything is connected.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
  14. Live4Him

    For the sake of this post, I'll presume that there is emprical evidence against Christianity and naturalism. These are:

    1) Discovery of an ossuary inscribed with the words : "Jesus, son of Joseph, crucified by Pontus Pilate"
    2) Discovery of dinosaur soft tissue.

    A biased person would ignore one of these while proclaiming the opposing religion to be falsified. This person would spout off endless excuses of why the evidence against their religion is not valid, while trumpeting the opposing evidence.

    An objective person would declare that both religions would be falsified by the above evidence – after the evidence had been validated.

    However, only one of the above presumed evidence is an actuallity. Dinosaur soft tissue has been found and announced by the paleological community, appearing in every major news source and been validated multiple times.

    As Obama once stated : "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig." And you can present logical evidence against naturalism, but an atheist will still support evolution.

    January 23, 2013 at 10:48 am |
    • midwest rail

      " Dinosaur soft tissue has been found and announced by the paleological community, appearing in every major news source and been validated multiple times. " False, but you already knew that. You just choose to ignore the reality of the debate.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:51 am |
    • tallulah13

      I can't seem to find any reference to such an ossuary actually existing. Please site your source. And while the discovery of dinosaur soft tissue is amazing, the only thing it proves is that dinosaur soft tissue has been found.

      I get that you will try to twist anything into proof of your god. I guess you have to, as there isn't any actual, verifiable evidence.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • myweightinwords

      What two religions are you talking about here?

      If this "dinosaur soft tissue" discovery is such a major find and covered by "all the major news networks" why is it you bringing it up the other day is the first I've heard of it?

      January 23, 2013 at 10:59 am |
    • tallulah13

      myweight:

      It's still disputed and not universally accepted. The techniques the discovered used are controversial, and there is some suspi.cion that the sample was contaminated.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:03 am |
    • Live4Him

      @midwest rail : False, but you already knew that. You just choose to ignore the reality of the debate.

      It's really sad that in today's information culture you can still find someone who doesn't know how to use a internet search engine like google.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:06 am |
    • Live4Him

      @tallulah13 : I can't seem to find any reference to such an ossuary actually existing. Please site your source.

      Please reread my post. – I presumed such an existence and then stated that it didn't exist.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • LMAO

      L4H is using creation wiki, LMAO!

      January 23, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • midwest rail

      What's truly sad is someone who uses it to advance an agenda without the reading comprehension skills necessary to evaluate the information dispassionately. You skipped the parts that clearly state the results are still under review, and that in no way is there a consensus on whether the "tissue" found is actually dinosaur soft tissue. But you already knew that, and continue to post merely to goad reaction. Now that is truly sad.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • myweightinwords

      tallulah,

      I haven't gone digging for the info, but I will when I have a little time this weekend. I read a fair amount of news online, and I honestly haven't heard anything about it...thus my questioning of L4H's claim that it was covered by all the big news outlets.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • Live4Him

      @myweightinwords : If this "dinosaur soft tissue" discovery is such a major find and covered by "all the major news networks" why is it you bringing it up the other day is the first I've heard of it?

      I don't know. You tell me. Perhaps you didn't watch/read the news sites back in 2005 and since? Perhaps its a selective memory issue. Only you would know. I've known about it since its first discovery and even read it on MSNBC – which surprised me!

      January 23, 2013 at 11:14 am |
    • Pete

      "You tell me. Perhaps you didn't watch/read the news sites back in 2005 and since? Perhaps its a selective memory issue. Only you would know. I've known about it since its first discovery and even read it on MSNBC – which surprised me!"

      Really? Provide the link to the article.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:17 am |
    • Live4Him

      @midwest rail : You skipped the parts that clearly state the results are still under review

      And the atheist starts squawking. Sure, it will be under review until Christ returns – since it undermines the evolutionists "millions of evolutionary years" concept. This doesn't mean that it hasn't been validated independently, because it already has been validated independently.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:20 am |
    • Todd

      There's an article in 2008 that states "Scientists question dinosaur soft tissue find tissue discovered in bone may actually be bacteria, palentologists said"

      January 23, 2013 at 11:22 am |
    • lunchbreaker

      If you google Mary H. Schweitzer you will find articles about the "soft tissue".

      January 23, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • midwest rail

      And the Christian apologist conveniently ignores the meat of the post. I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • Live4Him

      @myweightinwords : I read a fair amount of news online, and I honestly haven't heard anything about it...thus my questioning of L4H's claim that it was covered by all the big news outlets.

      Go to Google.com, next enter "dino soft tissue". Count the number of different scientific or news sites. It's EASY to verify.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • Terri

      It's just creationists cherry-picking and misrepresenting the scientific research of others.... A shocking development?

      January 23, 2013 at 11:26 am |
    • Terri

      "If you google Mary H. Schweitzer you will find articles about the "soft tissue"."

      And you'll find websites disputing her findings as well. So, it's not actual fact.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:29 am |
    • myweightinwords

      2005? The way you've been going on about it made me think this was something new. No wonder I haven't seen anything recently.

      When I have a little time to research (probably the weekend, since I'm at work and a lot of stuff is blocked by our network) I'll dig into it, but the little I've seen tells me that you're blowing it way out of proportion and omitting key facts. If it were the end of all arguments, it would be more widely used by those trying to make whatever point it is you're trying to make.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:37 am |
    • Science

      L4H Facts with link please read OK

      January 21, 2013
      Ancient DNA reveals humans living 40,000 years ago in Beijing area related to present-day Asians, Native Americans

      Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-01-ancient-dna-reveals-humans-years.html#jCp

      January 23, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • tallulah13

      Sorry, Live. I guess I was confused because neither of you references panned out. Perhaps you should just accept that your belief simply faith-based and stop trying to put lipstick on erroneous pigs.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • Which God?

      L4h. Ossuary claim has been falsified and debunked. 'Nuff said

      January 23, 2013 at 11:41 am |
    • Terri

      from a science site, can't post link.

      "Using an electron microscope, the researchers saw coatings on the vascular canal walls that contained gas bubbles, which they associated with the presence of methane-producing bacteria. In addition, they examined what looked like tiny cracks within the vascular canals and found that they were actually small troughs, or channels. Study at high magnification revealed the channels had rounded bottoms and bridged each other, indicating they were organically created, likely by bacteria moving in a very thick solution.

      From this evidence, we could determine that what had previously been reported as dinosaurian soft tissues were in fact biofilms, or slime."

      January 23, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • lunchbreaker

      What you will also find if you read enough about Mary H. Schweitzer, is that she is a devout Christian who is disgusted that the fundamentalists are using her research to disprove evolution. And that's the funniest part of the evolution debate, some Christians believe in evolution, so people like Liv4him basically call thier fellow believers stupid for believing it.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
  15. Science

    @l4H
    One way to move it out of the way, do you know anything a patent law ?

    Supreme Court to Decide if Human Genes Can Be ... – Reason Online

    reason.com/24-7/2012/.../supreme-court-to-decide-if-human-genes-c

    Nov 30, 2012 – The justices' decision will likely resolve an ongoing battle between scientists who believe that genes carrying the secrets of life should not be exploited for commercial gain and companies that argue that a patent is a reward ...

    January 23, 2013 at 10:40 am |
    • Science

      about patent law?

      January 23, 2013 at 10:49 am |
    • New Athiest

      I still cannot believe that an all knowing, and all powerful god wouldn't provide us with a book that wasn't full of mistakes and contradictions.
      I also don't believe that such a god would speak only to Moses to get his worship started.
      I also don't believe that the creator of the universe would condemn the vast majority of people to permanent torture.
      And let me finish today with: where is there any justice in setting Adam up to fail and then cursing every person who ever lived with that original sin?

      January 23, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
    • Science

      To many Adams and Eves in the DNA gene pool for the creation story from the bible to work

      Blood test works best.

      January 23, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
  16. myweightinwords

    I once heard a story.

    There is a man in a boat and all around him he sees people drowning. Frantically, he throws out life preservers and tries to drag the people to safety in his boat, but they fight him and do not seem to want to be saved. He doesn't understand this and continues his efforts endlessly, determined to save as many as he can.

    Meanwhile, the people he is trying to save are standing on solid ground, watching him in his boat on dry land, yelling out about being saved and wondering what in the world he's talking about, and getting irritated with his ropes and life preservers hit them in the head.

    Thoughts? Comments?

    January 23, 2013 at 10:20 am |
    • tallulah13

      A very lovely ana.logy for the proselytizing done by christians.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:05 am |
  17. Robert Brown

    God gave Jesus to die for our sins, and he raised him to life, so that we would be made acceptable to God.

    January 23, 2013 at 9:22 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Thats what your book of myths says anyway.

      January 23, 2013 at 9:26 am |
    • Science

      @RB
      One way to move it out of the way

      Supreme Court to Decide if Human Genes Can Be ... – Reason Online

      reason.com/24-7/2012/.../supreme-court-to-decide-if-human-genes-c

      Nov 30, 2012 – The justices' decision will likely resolve an ongoing battle between scientists who believe that genes carrying the secrets of life should not be exploited for commercial gain and companies that argue that a patent is a reward ...

      January 23, 2013 at 9:36 am |
    • Actually

      "and he raised him to life"

      It should be remembered that for the first 40 years of Christianity after Jesus' cru cifixion, there was no detailed written account of Jesus' resurrection from the tomb and his appearances to certain women and disciples. Consequently, for the first four decades of Christianity, the resurrection of Jesus was described in sparse terms with an emphasis on a resurrected spiritual body exalted into the heavens. It was the essence of the Christian faith: "If Christ was not raised, then our gospel is nu ll and void, and so is your faith.

      Three hundred years before Jesus, the pagan mysteries had produced a composite myth of the god-man whose biography had these (and other) elements:
      -He was god inca rnate,
      -Born of a virgin around December 25 or January 6 in a cave or stable, sometimes with shepherds present;
      -He is the son of a god and a savior;
      -His followers can be born again through baptism;
      -He turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony;
      -His death in the Spring is a sac rifice for the sins of mankind;
      -After death he descends to the place of departed spirits and then rises to heaven on the third day;
      -His followers then await his return in glory to be the judge of man kind at the Last Days;
      -His memory is celebrated by his followers through a ritual meal of bread and wine or water which represent his body.

      Note that biblical scho lars have concluded that the final verses describing appearances of the risen Christ (Mk. 16:9-20) are an interpo la tion (a polite term for "for gery"). These verses are not found in the earliest copies of the gospel and the writing style is different. Christian scribes, who were dissatisfied with the abru pt ending to Mark, added them later. Many biblical exe ge tes think that the last chapter of John (21) is an interpo la tion as well, added early in the second century.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:27 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Richard Cranium,

      The word of God is powerful.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Science,

      We are fearfully and wonderfully made.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:09 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Actually,

      The so called bible scholars who deny the accuracy of the word of God are not believers. What else would they do but try to cast doubt on the word of God? They can’t help it. They are of their father…..

      January 23, 2013 at 11:10 am |
    • OhPlease

      "The word of God is powerful."

      No, it's not. More and more people are leaving your religion because they know it's false. Something that is false is not powerful.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:11 am |
    • Science

      @RB

      Do you know anything about patent law ?
      They are going to patent the sercet. Life that is US .

      January 23, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • Which God?

      RB, do you realize how absurd that sounds? Even worse in print. Your god made us, supposedly in its image, and we aren't acceptable? Why did it make us so flawed in the first place? Your god is a total fukk up.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Robert Brown

      OhPlease,

      People are saved by the power of God every day. His holy word reveals to them their need, based on that alone it is powerful.

      January 23, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Science,

      That is neat. Let us know when they make their own critter from scratch.

      January 23, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Which God?,

      Oh, I don’t know, he could have made perfect robots, but instead he made intelligent living breathing beings with the freedom to make decisions and choices. He gave us the capability to rebel and we did, but he loves us, he made a way that we can be reconciled to him.

      January 23, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
    • Science

      @RBThey can mahe us from from scracth !!!

      Where’s Fred Flintstone when you need him?

      A professor of genetics at Harvard’s Medical School believes he’s capable of bringing the long-extinct Neanderthal back to life - all he’s lacking is the right mother.

      "I can create a Neanderthal baby, if I can find a willing woman," George Church told German newspaper Spiegel Online. The DNA of the Neanderthal, a long extinct relative of man, has been more or less rebuilt, a process called genetic sequencing.

      Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/01/21/scientist-seeks-adventurous-woman-to-have-neanderthal-baby/#ixzz2IpGjLeTw

      January 23, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Science

      @RB
      Science by the way is CREATING ears already for transplant onto humans.

      January 23, 2013 at 6:19 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Science,
      I saw a show a couple of months where a guy figured out how to melt the flesh off a heart I think, then use the tissue from another and regrow the heart for transplant. Then later on they were working on lungs. They thought that someday whenever an organ fails they will have all these framework organs ready and if you need one they just take some of you and grow it. No more rejecting transplants. This is super neat stuff. I thank God for the intelligence he gave some of those scientists.

      January 23, 2013 at 7:32 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Robert

      How about you thank the scientists that went to school and studied hard to gain actual knowledge instead of merely accepting "god god bible bible" as the answer to everything like you do.

      January 23, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
    • Science

      Sure glad that can't teach your god(s) in public schools in U.S. Creation/bible does not work accordig to the courts.
      Peace

      January 23, 2013 at 7:42 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Hawaiiguest,
      I am sure they worked hard. I started out in a pre major that required lots of math, chemistry, biology, loved it, made straight A’s. After a while I got bored of school and just wanted a degree and a job, so I switch majors. I know they worked hard. I am thankful for their sacrifice and enjoy hearing of their exploits. Peace.

      January 23, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Science,

      You don’t have to deny God to enjoy science and peace to you as well.

      January 23, 2013 at 8:09 pm |
    • Science

      @RB
      Say you mentioned watching TV, what digit do you use on your remote control ?

      Maybe for a little humor use your remote and watch The Big Bang Theory on CBS or reruns on TBS .
      Pig valves are the base plus STEM cells to manufacture heart valves for transplant.
      Peace

      January 23, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
  18. Archibald Smythe-Pennington, III

    It's near zero degrees in many places in the U.S. this morning. A little love music from the south is in order.
    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPiy2PP1hmM&w=640&h=390]
    About the location: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantanal
    https://www.google.com/search?q=pantanal&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=HmM&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Cuv_UMSVN8HE2wWWjYG4BQ&ved=0CFcQsAQ&biw=1448&bih=1138
    This song is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantanal_%28telenovela%29
    About the artist: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/marcus-viana-mn0000673318

    January 23, 2013 at 9:10 am |
    • meifumado

      What a boring song and horrible video

      January 23, 2013 at 10:47 am |
    • Brian

      This video is old, but the music is quite beautiful. Thanks for the links. I had not heard of this place before.

      January 23, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
  19. Live4Him

    Here are the premises that I base my conclusion upon for the Biblical God / Jesus.

    Necessity of a supernatural being
    a) Given the lack of natural explanation to create matter, energy and time,
    b) Given the lack of natural explanation to create life,
    Therefore, this implies some supernatural being / God is necessary, but not necessarily the Biblical God.

    Which God Did It?
    a) Given the Biblical account that begins with the creation of matter, energy and time,
    b) Given no other religions (other than the Abrahamic branches) begins with the creation of matter, energy and time,
    Therefore, this implies that only the Abrahamic religions are worthy of consideration for identifying this supernatural being.

    Did the Judaism God Do It?
    a) Given accurate transmission of the Jewish Bible,
    b) Given the fulfillment of foretold specific prophecies (incl: Eze 37) in the Jewish Bible
    Therefore, the God of the Jews is a viable contender for this supernatural being.

    Did the Islamic God Do It?
    a) Given inaccurate transmission of the Koran Bible,
    b) Given the factual inaccuracies (i.e. members of the Trinity)
    c) Given the lack of specific prophecies in the Koran
    Therefore, the God of the Muslims is not a viable contender.

    Did the Christian God Do It?
    a) Given accurate transmission of the Christian Bible (i.e. Jewish / OT and NT),
    b) Given the fulfillment of foretold specific prophecies (incl: Eze 37, Rev 13) in the Christian Bible
    Therefore, the God of the Christian is a viable contender for answering the Which God question. Since it includes the Jewish beliefs as well, it is the best answer.

    January 23, 2013 at 9:09 am |
    • End Religion

      If a creator exists it would be pantheistic. The Biblical god is your wish fulfillment. Since it has specific attributes, if it exists, it must be a subset of the pantheistic creator.

      January 23, 2013 at 9:24 am |
    • Smithsonian

      "a) Given accurate transmission of the Jewish Bible"

      The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12, such as the flood story, the record is quite different: the time period under consideration is much more ancient. The factual bases of the stories are hidden from our view archaeologically. The stories remain a part of folk traditions and were included in the Bible to illustrate and explain theological ideas such as: Where did humans come from? If humans were created by God (who is perfect and good), how did evil among them come to be? If we are all related as children of God, why do we speak different languages? It must be remembered that the Bible is primarily a book of religion, a guide to faith. it was not a book of history, poetry, economics, or science. It contains all sorts of literary genre, which are used to teach about the relationship between God and mankind. Even biblical history is edited history: events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible. The Biblical writers did not pretend they were giving a complete history; instead they constantly refer us to other sources for full historical details, sources such as "The Annals of the Kings of Judah" (or Israel).

      It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of checking its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship? In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document.

      January 23, 2013 at 9:29 am |
    • Science

      @L4H
      One way to move it out of the way

      Supreme Court to Decide if Human Genes Can Be ... – Reason Online

      reason.com/24-7/2012/.../supreme-court-to-decide-if-human-genes-c

      Nov 30, 2012 – The justices' decision will likely resolve an ongoing battle between scientists who believe that genes carrying the secrets of life should not be exploited for commercial gain and companies that argue that a patent is a reward ...

      January 23, 2013 at 9:35 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Your basic premise is flawed, the conclusions are flawed.

      You say "given the lack of natural explaination" which means we do not know. You then say because we do not know, there must be a god.

      TOTAL LOGIC FAIL.
      You have posted this before, but it makes no sense, any student of logic would be able to shred it. You should delete that cut and post, and never post anything so inane again.

      January 23, 2013 at 9:36 am |
    • ¿¿lol

      Also the subject of authorship for the gospels has always been contested. Various early church writers, such as Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons; circa 120 CE to ?) Justin Martyr (Christian apologist; 100 to 165), Tertullian (Christian theologian; circa 160 to 220 +) concluded that the Pagan/Christian similarities were a Satanic attempt at "diabolical mimicry." Satan was said to have use "plagiarism by anticipation." That is, the Devil made a pre-emptive strike against the gospel stories centuries before Jesus was born. The reason was to confuse the public into thinking that Jesus was merely a copy of previous god-men. The goal was to demolish the credibility of Christianity in the people's eyes.

      So that's the best they could do to defend accusation of plagiarism? By saying it was a pre-emptive strike by satan?? And still not being able to say exactly who the authors of the gospels were?

      January 23, 2013 at 9:36 am |
    • lunchbreaker

      Nice cut and paste, I see you still have not corrected transmission to transcription. Would only take a second, and make your post a bit more accurate.

      January 23, 2013 at 9:44 am |
    • Live4Him

      @End Religion : If a creator exists it would be pantheistic.

      This universe is composed of matter, energy and time. Since a creator couldn't exist prior to time, this creator couldn't create itself. Therefore, it stands to reason that this creator is outside of matter, energy and time – and thus not pantheistic.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:03 am |
    • ¿¿lol

      OK, so it's a whacky conclusion based on scientific theory, wild leaps to a very contestable god among many that man has created, and a story with mostly unknown authors charged with plagiarism. At least you're not trying to say you have proof of anything. That would be laughable.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:10 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      L4H
      Now, not only have you tried to say we do not know therefor god must exist, but you now say god exists outside of everything.
      There is no logic to your statements whatsoever. You have nothing to back up these wild theories you have of a god.
      Your posts are pointless, except to show you haven't got a clue.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:11 am |
    • meifumado

      What a pig-headed post, Any other religious fool could make the same inane conclusions.
      You really need to get out more and maybe pick up a few science books

      January 23, 2013 at 10:17 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Smithsonian : The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12

      Two logic fallacies – Dismissed!
      1) Appeal to Authority
      2) Ad Nauseam

      January 23, 2013 at 10:19 am |
    • Smithsonian

      "@Smithsonian : The stories found in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 1-12

      Two logic fallacies – Dismissed!
      1) Appeal to Authority
      2) Ad Nauseam"

      Try using that argument at the world's largest research center. You'd be laughed at for your stupidity.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:23 am |
    • myweightinwords

      You keep posting this, and yet have no interest in actually stepping through the logic of it and identifying the flaws.

      It would be more believable and understandable for you to simply say that you believe due to personal experience.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:24 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Richard Cranium : Now, not only have you tried to say we do not know therefor god must exist

      Logic Fallacy: Strawman – Dismissed!

      My posit is that we KNOW that matter, energy and time exist. We KNOW that (to date) there isn't a natural explanation. We KNOW that the Bible begins with their creation.

      And yet you felt compelled to twist it into a strawman. Spells desperation!

      January 23, 2013 at 10:24 am |
    • Live4Him

      @myweightinwords : You keep posting this, and yet have no interest in actually stepping through the logic of it and identifying the flaws.

      you haven't identified any flaws, so there are none to discuss.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:26 am |
    • myweightinwords

      you haven't identified any flaws, so there are none to discuss.

      Which is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I can't hear you" over and over again.

      Your logic is deeply flawed. Your "conclusions" require huge leaps of faith and show very little to no research.

      This is not a list of the reasons you believe. It is a list of things that you believe.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:29 am |
    • Live4Him

      @¿¿lol : That is, the Devil made a pre-emptive strike against the gospel stories centuries before Jesus was born.

      You've misread (possibly deliberately) their writings. There was nothing preemptive about it. When you take an pagan god prior to Christ and blend it together with attributes associated with Christ in 125-175 AD, this is not pre-emptive.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:32 am |
    • Live4Him

      @myweightinwords : Which is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I can't hear you" over and over again.

      You keep repeating that there are flaws, but never present them.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:36 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      I have created no strawman, do you not understand that either.

      YOUR post:
      Necessity of a supernatural being
      a) Given the lack of natural explanation to create matter, energy and time,
      b) Given the lack of natural explanation to create life,
      Therefore, this implies some supernatural being / God is necessary, but not necessarily the Biblical God

      This says we do not know therefore there must be a god. I haven't changed your argument at all. The problem is a COMPLETE lack of logic. You jump to a conclusion based on NO facts.

      Why don't you get your nose out of your book of myths and get an education.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:46 am |
    • myweightinwords

      You keep repeating that there are flaws, but never present them.

      Yes, I have. More than once.

      I'd rather have an honest discussion about what and why you believe than watch you continue to cling to this list, trying to use it as a means to cudgel non-believers.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:49 am |
    • .

       hawaiiguest
      @Live
      Still posting this shit? Why post it if you aren't willing to defend it when challenged? Oh that's right, self-righteousness, and the superiority complex. Got it.
       niknak
      Pretty weak, even by your low standards die4him.
      What you are saying is that if there is not an explanation for something, then it must be god.
      So, when a child is born with cancer, that must be god's work, right?
      And what happens when something that previously had no explaination but now does have one?
      You religious types back in the day used lightening, and solar ecclipses and earthquates as your "proof" of god.
      We now know god has nothing to do with those natural events. Does that mean god does not exist now?
      Keep up that bad work, and keep wasting your time with your fairy tale.
       niknak
      Don't know what you are reading, but every religion that has ever existed has a creation story.
      In fact, your religion ripped off it's creation story from other older religions that existed in that region.
      Plus, most other religions have much more colorful creation stories then whats in your creepy book.
      Christianity is not only wrong, it is mindnumbingly boring.
       hawaiiguest
      @Live
      Your entire list begins with an Argument from Ignorance. The lack of a naturalistic explanation that you accept (We have no evidence that matter and energy didn't exist at some point. And time would depend on which definition of time you're using. We have also shown within a lab that the building blocks of life, amino acids, can arise through purely naturalistic means.) means absolutely nothing for your assertion of "therefore god".
      This is standard apologetics, and built on a fallacy.
       niknak
      Sure, even the naturalist have a creation story  The Big Bang. However, only ONE begins with the creation of matter, energy and time
      Sigh........
      I am glad we have actual scientists who figure things out and not you die4him.
      Cause if it was only up to you, we might still be living in caves.
      But go ahead and enjoy all the comfort and security that scientific discovery has provided you with to make your life easier.
      I am sure god would have gotten around to it eventually.
       hawaiiguest
      @Live
      That's just ridiculous. You cannot take the bible as an authority without actually establishing credibility. You are also assuming creation to prove creation. That's just circular reasoning.
       Gir
      "Lack of a natural explanation for matter, energy, and time."
      Just because you shut your eyes to the evidence does not mean it doesn't exist.
      Even babies develop object permanence at some point. Yet religionists lack it.
       Gir
      How many religions have you researched, Live4him? How do you know the Fulani ethnic group of West Africa or the Maoris of New Zealand don't posit their own supernatural explanation of "matter, energy and time?"
      And this Natural explanation vs Supernatural explanation nonsense is an example of a False Dilemma. What is your basis for claiming that a SUPERNATURAL, untestable mumbo-jumbo explanation is a viable, and indeed, the ONLY alternative to a NATURAL explanation for a NATURAL universe?
       WASP
      @him: physics explains energy, that one you learn in grade school.
      "energy can not be created nor destoryed"
      thus all the energy in the universe now, whether in solid form as matter , pure form as plasma or in it's original form just energy; it has always been the same and will remain so forever.
      no god needed to create/ run the universe.
       SImran
      Is God Necessary?
      Why is there a need for supernatural here? What we donot understand today may well be explained naturally tomorrow, just like so much already has been. Supernatural / unnatural is only one hypothesis, definitely not a need!
      Which God Did It?
      How many religious cosmologies have u read to state that only Abrahamic religions begin with creation of matter etc.. If you read even briefly the concept of Hinduism or Sikhism, you will be astonished how close their descriptions are to what scientists are finding  something like a big bang is actually described in Vedas!
      How stupid can you be to claim that only Abrahamic religions are worthy of consideration!!! Get out of your rabbit hole man!
      Did the Judism God Do It?
      Prophecies? Really? Have you ever read how each prophecy has been bu.sted?
      Did the Islamic God Do It?
      The followers of the Islamic God say the same about Biblical God as you do about theirs!
      Did the Christian God Do It?
      Given the inaccuracies of the Bible, the Christian God certainly did not do it!
       ME II
      @Live4Him,
      You said,

      Is God Necessary?
      a) Given the need for a supernatural action to create matter, energy and time,
      b) Given the need for a supernatural action to create life,
      Therefore, this implies some God is necessary, but not necessariuly the Biblical God.

      As I've said previously, you have not show any basis for points a) and b). I.e. you say there is a "need", but have not shown such a "need".
       ???????
      Wonder if l4h understands we are made out of carbon

       ME II
      "a postulate stands unless one or more of the supporting premises is shown to be false"
      I disagree. You are definitely not correct unless proven wrong.
      The person making the claim has the burden to show their claim is true, a.k.a. the 'burden of proof'. In science, I think this is known a a null hypothesis.
       SImran
      @ L4H,
      Now speaking of Sikhism:
      Guru Granth Sahib states that, There are planets, solar systems and galaxies. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end. There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation. As He commands, so they exist. He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices. Nanak says, to describe this is as hard as steel!
      The holy text continues to state: "The limits of the created universe cannot be perceived. Its limits here and beyond cannot be perceived. Many struggle to know His limits, but His limits cannot be found. No one can know these limits. The more you say about them, the more there still remains to be said."
      According to Guru Nanak, there was darkness and chaos for millions of years. There was only God and nothing else  no mists, no clouds, no vapours, nothing. None existed except God. Guru Nanak says:
      "There was darkness for countless years.
      There was neither earth nor sky; there was only His Will.
      There was neither day nor night, neither sun nor moon.
      He (God) was in deep meditation.
      There was nothing except Himself." (SGGS p1035)
      Guru Amar Das, the third Nanak further clarifies and reinforces this concept in the following lines found in the Guru Granth Sahib:
      He created Himself  at that time, there was no other.
      He consulted Himself for advice, and what He did came to pass.
      At that time, there were no Akaashic Ethers, no nether regions, nor the three worlds.
      At that time, only the Formless Lord Himself existed  there was no creation.
      As it pleased Him, so did He act; without Him, there was no other. ||1||" (SGGS p509)
      Then God willed the creation of the universe. He became manifest: Sargun. He diffused Himself in nature. Guru Nanak says:
      "Thou created all Thy Universe to please Thyself, to enjoy the spectacle, the reality, which is the light of Thy own Reality-self."
       SImran
      Now did I talk of failed Bible prophecies that u quote as evidence for the truth of Biblical God? Yeah, I like asking questions, you dont seem to like answering them!
      Do you want me to paste the entire wiki article here, or would the link suffice for your reference? (Another question!)
      http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies
       myweightinwords
      Begin at the beginning.
      Is God Necessary?
      a) Given the need for a supernatural action to create matter, energy and time,
      b) Given the need for a supernatural action to create life,
      Therefore, this implies some God is necessary, but not necessarily the Biblical God.
      Stop with a first. Why is a supernatural action required for a natural process? You make the assumption first that there is a "beginning" that matter and energy have not always existed. Time is a human construct used to help us understand our world. Because we have created time we assume it must have a beginning.
      Establish first that a beginning is required, that matter and energy are not simply existent, without external action.
       ME II
      @Live4Him,
      ps
      in Logic, even if your form is correct, i.e. logically valid, it still does not mean that your conclusion is true. The conclusion is only true, if the logic is valid and all premises are true.
      You have not shown that your premises are true.
      Additionally, I don't think your logic is correct either.
       ME II
      e.g.
      Socrates is a man.
      All men are gods.
      Therefore Socrates is a god.
      Logically valid, yet untrue because the second premise is not true.
       SImran
      @ L4H,
      "When I provide a postulate, it stands as fact unless one of the supporting premises is shown to be false  much like the way science works."
      Dear L4H, I may not be a philosopher, but I am a science person. In science, when you provide a postulate, unless it is proven, it remains just that  a postulate! It doesnot become a fact. The proof of burden really is on the one postulating!!!
      And of course, you were blind to see that while I was asking those questions, I was actually providing evidence of how your postulates were incorrect!
       SImran
      "Of course not. I just thought we were in a philiosophical setting, not a classroom setting where one party does all the asking and the other party does all the answering. I've got the answers and you obviously do not."
      And what are the questions to which you have the answers? You simply state that there is a NEED FOR SUPERNATURAL (based on what premise?), that the supernatural has to be the Abrahamic God (in which case you show obvious bias for the same without looking into the claims of other religions of the world)!
      So, as per you a twisted story of Adam created from mud and Eve from his rib is more reliable than the accounts I provided above. Well, you do seem to have all the answers, don't you?
       SImran
      "In logic, it is YOUR responsibility to falsify my premise(s). If you fail to do so, they are assumed to be true (since the stated premises are generally accepted by all)."
      Let me get this straight. You suggest that your premises are to be considered true bcoz they are generally accepted by all!
      Point number one  you are sadly mistaken by the idea that generally all accept your premise. Well, 2/3rd of this world's population doesnot accept your premise! They do not accept the Biblical God!
      Point number 2  Your premises have already been shown to be untrue. You base your argument on the prohecies and creation stories, both of which have been shown to be untrue!
      Saraswati
      "In logic, it is YOUR responsibility to falsify my premise(s). If you fail to do so, they are assumed to be true (since the stated premises are generally accepted by all)."
      First, logic is just a set of rules, like mathematics. There are no "responsibilities" assigned. Perhaps what you meant is in formal debate or something? Either way, do you really want to argue that anything generally accepted by "all" is true? If something were accepted by "all" who would be arguing on the other side? Or do you have a lower threshold (didn't reall mean all)? In this truth by democracy is 50% good enough? 2/3? 90%?

      January 23, 2013 at 10:52 am |
    • Live4Him

      @lunchbreaker : I see you still have not corrected transmission to transcription. Would only take a second, and make your post a bit more accurate.

      You mean less accurate. You don't transcribe a package over the decades, but you DO transmit the package over the decades.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • ¿¿lol

      ". . There was nothing preemptive about it. When you take an pagan god prior to Christ and blend it together with attributes associated with Christ in 125-175 AD, this is not pre-emptive."

      So that's all we need to validate the gospels – a heavy-duty blender.

      January 23, 2013 at 10:57 am |
    • Terri

      From a science website.

      Using an electron microscope, the researchers saw coatings on the vascular canal walls that contained gas bubbles, which they associated with the presence of methane-producing bacteria. In addition, they examined what looked like tiny cracks within the vascular canals and found that they were actually small troughs, or channels. Study at high magnification revealed the channels had rounded bottoms and bridged each other, indicating they were organically created, likely by bacteria moving in a very thick solution.

      From this evidence, we could determine that what had previously been reported as dinosaurian soft tissues were in fact biofilms, or slime.

      January 23, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • End Religion

      Thank goodness after all this we still know your god and his son never existed, and that the bible is a fraud.

      January 23, 2013 at 6:06 pm |
  20. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Pray without ceasing in 2013
    Prayer changes things

    January 23, 2013 at 8:01 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Leave a Reply to Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but your repeated assertions regarding atheism and prayer are unfounded.

      Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "CHRONIC TOTAL FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      January 23, 2013 at 8:05 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Hal

      Your suffering from a delusion. Go back to your fictional world.

      January 23, 2013 at 9:07 am |
    • Jesus

      Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!

      January 23, 2013 at 9:27 am |
    • gary

      "Your suffering from a delusion"

      I think you mean "You're suffering from a delusion"

      If someone writes poorly, then it's fair for anyone else to wonder how well that person is comprehending what they are reading; what they are able to verify.

      January 23, 2013 at 9:53 am |
    • gary

      (@Live4Him)

      January 23, 2013 at 9:54 am |
    • meifumado

      If you prey without ceasing, when will there be time time to do things that matter?

      January 23, 2013 at 10:43 am |
    • lionlylamb

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gBna3zozRo&w=640&h=390]

      January 23, 2013 at 11:10 am |
    • End Religion

      just when you thought Lamb couldn't get any crazier...

      January 23, 2013 at 6:22 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.