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February 1st, 2013
05:31 AM ET

Belief Blog's Morning Speed Read for Friday, February 01, 2013

By Arielle Hawkins, CNN

Here's the Belief Blog’s morning rundown of the top faith-angle stories from around the United States and around the world. Click the headlines for the full stories.

From the Blog:

CNN: Opt out option expected for religious insurers who oppose contraceptives
Religiously affiliated organizations will be able to opt out of providing their employees with insurance coverage for contraceptives under updates to an Obama administration mandate that the Department of Health and Human Services is expected to unveil on Friday, according to two sources.


Archbishop Jose H. Gomez chastised his predecessor, now retired Cardinal Roger Mahony (above), for shortcomings after victims came forward during his tenure.

CNN: Files may reveal what the Catholic Church in Los Angeles knew about sex abuse
A California judge has forced the Archdiocese of Los Angeles to release some 12,000 pages of church documents revealing how it handled allegations of priest sexual abuse. There were many – 192 priests and bishops were named in litigation, the archdiocese said. "The cases span decades," Archbishop Jose H. Gomez said in a statement Thursday. Some go back to the 1930s.

CNN: Heavy sentences in China for 2 Tibetans over self-immolations
A court in southwestern China has given heavy sentences to two ethnic Tibetans convicted of murder for "inciting" people to set themselves of fire, state media reported Thursday. Self-immolation has become a dramatic and harrowing form of protest in recent years for ethnic Tibetans unhappy with Chinese rule. Beijing has taken a tough line on the protesters and their associates, accusing the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, of fomenting unrest inside Chinese borders.

Tweet of the Day:

Photos of the Day:

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.               Photo credit: ACQUES DEMARTHON/AFP/Getty Images

A picture taken on January 31, 2013 shows a new bell baptized 'Jean Marie' displayed upon its arrival among nine new bells, in front of Paris' Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris. 'Jean Marie' weighs 782 kilograms and plays a A sharp note.

Cambodian monks pray for the late former King Norodom Sihanouk in front of the Royal Palace in Phnom Penh on January 31, 2013 ahead of a lavish funeral procession on February 1.

Pakistani seminary students and people offer funeral prayers for top cleric, Abdul Majeed Deenpuri, 60, who was gunned down in a shooting, in Karachi on January 31, 2013. A top cleric from one of the largest Muslim seminaries in Pakistan was shot dead Thursday, with at least nine other people killed in bombs and shootings in Karachi in the last 24 hours, officials said.

Enlightening Reads:

Huffington Post: Gays Can Be Good Parents, But Same-Sex Marriage Is Still Unjust, Says U.K. Catholic Church
As the U.K. government prepares for its first-ever vote on marriage equality, the Catholic Church in England and Wales conceded in a recent statement that gay couples can make good parents; however, the Church, which is vehemently opposed to same-sex unions, maintained that gay marriage is "unjust" and should not be legalized.

Religion News Service: Vatican admits it doesn’t fully understand youth culture
The Vatican’s culture ministry warned on Thursday (Jan. 31) that the Catholic Church risks losing future generations if it doesn’t learn how to understand young people, their language and their culture. The Pontifical Council for Culture invited sociologists, web experts and theologians to a three-day, closed-door event on Feb. 6-9 aimed at studying “emerging youth cultures.”

The Guardian: Four US states considering laws that challenge teaching of evolution
Four US states are considering new legislation about teaching science in schools, allowing pupils to be taught religious versions of how life on earth developed in what critics say would establish a backdoor way of questioning the theory of evolution. Fresh legislation has been put forward in Colorado, Missouri and Montana. In Oklahoma, there are two bills before the state legislature that include potentially creationist language.

Reuters: Suit claiming Hebrew Nat'l hot dogs not kosher dismissed
ConAgra Foods Inc has won the dismissal of a lawsuit filed by consumers claiming the company's Hebrew National hot dogs and other products are not kosher. U.S. District Judge Donovan Frank in St. Paul federal court ruled on Thursday that he does not have jurisdiction over a dispute that he described as "intrinsically religious in nature."

Boston Globe: Catholic event cancels talk by Islam critic
The Roman Catholic Diocese of Worcester rescinded an invitation Wednesday to Robert Spencer, a Catholic whose work depicts Islam as an inherently violent religion, to speak at its annual Catholic Men’s Conference in March. The invitation was withdrawn after Muslims in Massachusetts expressed concerns to the diocese about the appearance of Spencer, scheduled to be a featured speaker at the DCU Center on March 16.

Join the conversation…

CNN: Unholy details of a religious cult
CNN's Brooke Baldwin talks to Rafael Romo about a religious cult whose members were believed to be victims of sex slavery.

- A. Hawkins

Filed under: Morning Read

soundoff (194 Responses)
  1. niknak

    @ It's NOT ok,
    Disbelief is in my daily routine because there is zero verifiable proof that the sky fairy exists.
    Your naked romp thru your church is NOT verifiable proof to me of the existence of your god.
    You claim to be a scientist, yet here you are trying to convince the rest of us that your personal experience with god should be taken as "proof."
    I bet that in your scientific field that if you proposed some new hypothesis based solely on your personal experience, the other scientists would laugh you out of the conference.

    Yet we are supposed to accept you "proof" and go along with the myth based solely on that.

    No thanks,

    February 1, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
    • dis_master

      @ It's NOT ok,

      NikNak changed your name from ok to NOT ok, BURN!!!!!!!!! THATS HOW HE ROLLS. Big dog bites.
      you either go big, or go home. Or NikNak PADDY Wack give a dog a bone will BURN you.
      NICE ONE NIKNAK. u rulz!!!!

      February 1, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
    • its ok

      nope i dont want personal followers.
      John 3:25-36
      King James Version (KJV)
      25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
      26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
      27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
      28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
      29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
      30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
      31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
      32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
      33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
      \34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
      35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
      36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

      February 1, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • niknak

      Copying and pasting the babble proves what exatly?
      The vast majority of the world does not believe in you stone age book, not just us non believers.

      Out of all the thousands of religions that have existed, how do you know you have the right god(s)?
      Those other religions have their own stone age book of magic spells too.
      Why are they wrong and only yours is right?

      Face bro, you have bought into a big lie.

      February 1, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
  2. its ok

    @robert and fred
    ten years ago, i thought my parents were brain washing my sister at church and a christian school. i had just been through a biochem degree and just resented the church.. I went back to my hometown, remenbering how adam and even sinned and were ashamed, I took my clothes off, got in my 3/4 ton pickup, and drove my truck through their church and the school. I felt like they were oppressing children into schytzophrenia .
    but I tod God that I just wanted the truth before i did it.

    over the last eight years, I have been through the most powerful witness of the Holy spirit, and the revelaions of evil and the devil, of anyone that i know. God has blessed me with what I consider a domascus road salvation, and I have become and servant and slave of the cross. I am able to truly love Jesus because despite my hatred and persecution of the church, the Lord is full of mercy and grace.

    I just want you to know that the word of God is alive and powerful, and even as I mocked my family, the word of God took its course in my soul as my family never conceded, never admitted they were "just mechanically religious". The Holy Spirit will testify within these men, keep praying and being real. God bless you all with faith, and more faith.

    February 1, 2013 at 1:39 pm |

    • (from Experiences of Those Who Hear Voices But Thankfully Didn't Have a Gun in Their Hands at the Time)

      February 1, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Thoth

      Perhaps your exposure to biochemicals has had some side effects 8;}

      February 1, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
    • its ok

      no voices, God will get your attention if you are zealous directly toward HIm, and not science. His witness is through anything and everything, you just need to be serious and address the word "sin" and this is the key to a supernatural door.. I have talked to so many people who want proof, but refuse approach God through the blood of Christ. This is Way, and the Truth , and the Life.
      I would never hurt anyone, I chose to felony vandalize knowing what would come in punishment, temporary slap on the wrist, and I was completely "sick of religion". telling me "in the world but not of the word?" "put off the fllesh and put one the spirit and mind of Christ" . It seemed like such a freakish problem.

      and then I started having experiences which were 100% spiritual manifestations. miraculous delivery of truth of the Word of God through soveriegn genius, THE MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • Thoth

      Ok, forget side-effects...you are just plumb crazy.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
    • sam

      The only real question I have here, is...why did you take your clothes off first?

      February 1, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • Primewonk

      Certain types of schizophrenia do run in families. And often the age of onset is the early 20's.

      I would ask that if you aren't too far down the rabbit hole yet, that you turn all your guns over to the police. Try and get your fathers guns as well.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • its ok

      Romans 8:38-39

      38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      that is my response and reason for putting my story out there. you can say it all, don't think that you can resist the Holy Spirit's testimony. everything here is a presentation from one man to another of truth, but this is not the sovereign voice of the Holy Spirit. you will know it when He reveals Himself.

      i dont want a gun. i did punch a kid in seventh grade though and he cried and i felt terrible, and that was it. i am one who who gets ripped off and used for materials, and i am patient and compassionate. and toward your resentment and mocking, there is nothing that can separate you from the love of God, unless you truly hate Him. but He loves you and I will too,

      February 1, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      its ok,
      Amen, the only witness that anyone can really believe is the holy spirit. We can give out the word and share our experiences, but god does all the work. Praise his high and holy name.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
    • New Athiest

      People in all religions have stories like this. How do you explain all the other gods reaching out to those people?

      February 1, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • its ok

      adam and eve ate of the tree, and then they realized they were naked and they made fig leave tunics and hid from God, who told them, the day you eat of the tree you shall surely die. And God found them, and He made them tunics of skin (substtutionary death) . Mercy, love, restoration for sin.
      Leviticus 17:11
      New International Version (NIV)
      11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

      The whole entire old testament is a prophecy of the Lamb of God.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • December

      Thank you for your post. I never actually drove a truck into a church, but I can still relate. Resentments are a killer.

      February 1, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • End Religion

      And the Joker wannabe who shot up the Dark Knight movie was a "brilliant science scholar" as well. Crazy people come in all stripes, though religion seems to house the most. OP, as a "felon" you'll be much more at home in religion. Zealots, you are welcome to him.

      February 1, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      I think its ok is a poe and is merely pulling the religious morons out to engage in a circle jerk to show their own self-righteousness.

      February 1, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
    • its ok

      i am simply saying, that when unbelief is your daily hobby, and you are here because you are on a quest for truth, that your dismay does not ever make anything any worse than it was to begin with. Angels are looking in on your salvation, and there is permission being granted through our prayers to grant intervention to you. Hawaii, End Religion, Hal, tom Tom, Rat Lib, Domocles, Science, Talullah, Bob, Faith is being given in God's good timing. Your unbelief hobby will turn into the championship of your faith. paul killed christians. did that matter?

      February 1, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Do you have a point? Oh wait, it's prosletyzing, the point is self-righteous, passive aggressive bullshit to make yourself feel more secure in your unfounded beliefs.

      February 1, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • December

      >> Your unbelief hobby will turn into the championship of your faith.

      This was and is true for me. Yes.

      February 1, 2013 at 4:06 pm |
    • science

      @ its ok
      Peace

      February 1, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Damocles

      @its

      So the holy spirit filled you to such an extent that you felt compelled to drive around naked in your pickup truck until you found a church to crash into? Sounds like you just got busted with a lady of questionable background and ran from the cops. Which is totally believable, many fine, upstanding members have had to come up with excuses on the fly when caught in compromising posistions.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:15 pm |
  3. End Religion

    My momma dun told me gawd dun it wiff spellz and if'n youz dont bleev then yooz'll roast in fire for blasfeemenz! Praise the baby Jeesus. In he's name I prey. Amen! Amen!! Amen!!! (3 times meenz more powr)

    February 1, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • austin

      @ robert i am praying for you , we battle not against f&b, ..........

      February 1, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • End Religion

      you don't battle against franks and beans?

      February 1, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • austin

      no we do battle agains franks and beans, i just did not want to sound silly. they are overly explosive and dangerous to society.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • End Religion

      agreed!

      February 1, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
  4. Chuckles

    Top of the morning to you ladies and gents

    Here's a noggin scratcher for ya:

    Satan is supposed to be evil incarnate right? As far as I can tell, apart from being told that Satan is such a bad guy, he stands for all inclusivity, he allows for man's inner id to come out and reign, and the only truely evil thing he does is seemingly question god. We all know that history is written by the winners, which is why when we read about the Soviet Union we say that Stalin was a monster, Russian Communisim would never have survived, everyone was really sad in Russia (probably still is) and that American exceptionalism triumphed over evil soviet policies. The same can be said about the bible, god's followers are the ones writing the book so Satan gets the short end of the stick, being cast the uber villain and is blamed for pretty much all the badness that happens in the world.

    I contend that Satan is probably more accepting and loving of humans than god is, taking everyone as they are, allowing them to do whatever they want and doesn't demand anything in return.

    And for the record to all you believers out there, please do not mistake this post as me actually believing these characters actually exist, however when you look at what happens in the bibble, god seems to be more of a dou.che than satan.

    February 1, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • Really-O?

      “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

      ― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

      February 1, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • itsok

      in the old testament, there was a literal curse for sin un atoned, and right now you are still the benefactor of the blood atonement
      weather you believe that or not, the curse for sin is lifted, and you are forgiven for those statements as Christ prayed "forgive them they no not what they do." and we love you dearly and understand your emotional rejection of the justice that God promises, and for the righteoss judgments of God. We are all weak, and I pray that you would listen for the Lord's voice, and watch out for the presence of evil, listen for your angels getting your attention as well as the voice of God through His creation which will speak to your heart. His presence is written in your heart, and you need the healing of your spiritual receiver. you have been justified and healed, if you would only strengthen yourself in the Lord. Peace brother, and love. We do not convert, only here with light on a stand. For it was the God, who commanded the light to shine out of the darkness,who shines in our heart, to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. And we behold his glory, full of grace and truth.

      February 1, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • fred

      Sticking with Satan as characterized in the Bible one cannot come up with your conclusion. Satan in the original form was the most beautiful of angelic beings. Realization of self beauty elevated and eternalized an ever growing rise in self leading to recognition that God appeared the only enti-ty greater. Being number two sucks in light of self knowledge that you are the greatest. As pride rose the game was on and God simply cast him down to earth in what was a clash of principalities the likes never witnessed by man. Some speculate this is why there was a dark formless mass in the beginning after God had created the heavens and the earth.
      That day forward Satan has never stopped the lies and deception that would cause children of God to suffer eternal evil with Satan in hell rather than experience eternal unity with God (love, peace, joy etc).

      That does not sound like your guy

      February 1, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • Bob

      So, fred, how come your omnipotent goddy boy can't just deal with this "Satan"? Rather pathetic excuse for a god that you've made for yourself there.

      Furthermore, the whole premise of Christianity that the death of the son of god would have been any kind of "sacrifice" and was required to deal with "sin" is utter nonsense. This is a supposed omnipotent being that we are discussing. Christians, think this through a bit: how come your 'omnipotent' creature couldn't do all that supposed saving without the loony son sacrifice bit? And for that matter, how was it a sacrifice at all, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time it wants with less than a snap of its fingers? Pretty feeble god it is that you've made for yourself there. Give that some thought and maybe it will help you leave your delusions behind. You will remain a laughingstock otherwise, and the more you dwell in your silly delusion and ancient myths, instead of keeping up with advances in medicine and technology, the more America slips downward relative to the rest of the world in science and other fields.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      February 1, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Chuckles,
      ” he allows for man's inner id to come out and reign”

      You might be confusing Satan with the flesh in this case. Satan is a fallen angel. We can yield to the flesh and sin, Satan isn’t really involved in this, we can do it without him.

      February 1, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • Science

      Hey Robert the pope kicked them out of game last month. The angels???

      Looks like the Uof M has us in a tube in Doc's post below
      Peace

      February 1, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • fred

      Bob
      God already took care of Satan and evil. How did he do that is your question (I think)? Remember that man was set up in the perfect garden then man basically did the same thing Satan did (wanted what God had). Gods solution was the same for both. Ok Satan play out your game and ok man play out your game is what God allowed already knowing how the game played out. When the game is played out evil will fall back into darkness and good will be left in the light of the Lord. It is simple enough even a caveman can do it (oh, Neanderthal worshiped God in case you are interested).

      As to Jesus, God simply forgave the sins of the world which stripped Satan (evil) of his power. Anyone that wants to accept the perfect gift (no different than the beginning where Adam could have accepted the perfect gift – eternity with God) can accept it.

      Exactly what is it you cannot see or refuse to see? “I will make a new heaven and a new earth, I will wipe away every tear” God has already done it all we are just living it out in demonstration of where we want our souls to rest in eternity. If you have a better plan to allow those who wish to spend eternity in light to prove their true hearts desire I would love to hear it.

      February 1, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      translation of fred:

      "blah blah bible bible blah blah I'm right because I say so blah blah no one is allowed to question it blah blah irrelevant tangent blah blah I'm a dsihonest fucking moron".

      February 1, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
    • End Religion

      fred, why would evil fade away? Is it a mistake? Your god purports to have created it, why would there ever come a time when it is no longer needed? Did god create evil "temporarily"? If he needed it to achieve a goal, why didn't he just snap his fingers to achieve the same goal unless he is impotent?

      You may hear me asking why, why, why, but I'm not so much asking why as asking you to wake up and smell the evil coffee. These machinations you go through are ridiculous. Talking to religious people is almost good enough comedy for a Saturday Night Live skit. Absolute absurdity, as they stand there like a deer caught in headlights claiming "gawd dun it, gawd dun it."

      February 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • fred

      End Religion
      I do not recall anywhere that God created evil where did you get that? God created what we know and at each critical step said it is very good.
      God created an angelic being to be the most beautiful of all created things and that being (not God) became absorbed in self desire which always ends in evil. God created man in His own image and man desired to “be like God” “be wise like God”. Well both were warned that free will cannot deal with the knowledge of good and evil or they will surly die (loss of perfect goodness free of evil). This knowledge cannot be unknown once it is known without death and so death entered the world.
      In Christ was the light of men and life. Any that want it can have it. Not complicated even a caveman can do it.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • End Religion

      Isaiah 45:7
      "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

      February 1, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
    • fred

      End of Reigion
      Opps my answer may have been very indirect. Evil was not a mistake it is the consequence of desire. God cannot remove desire as desire responds in love, worship and endless joy as well as imploding into destructive pride and self worship.

      Evil fades away because the holiness of God is a burning consuming fire. We think of God in material ways which is far from who God is. Even the Seraphim cover their eyes in the brightness of Gods holy name. No one can see the face of God and live. Good is a subset of goodness and all that is good (the fruits of the Spirit discussed in the Bible) is in Christ (believers give their life to become Christ like) in perfect unity with God.

      Evil is burned away by the holiness. Eternal fire is reserved for that which continues to churn with hate towards God. My guess is that if Satan or evil ever stops that worm of hate focused against goodness that too will simply be consumed. In short hell is eternal as long as evil burns in the soul.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
    • fred

      End Religion
      sorry, I must run. Isiah 45:7 relates to another issue. However, God makes no bones about being responsible for everything you can think of simply because he does alow it. When allowing it God further states He works it all out in the best possible and most perfect way for the individual concerned and the World. That is why God is all and all. We cannot escape what is.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • Akira

      If God was all-knowing, why the tree of knowledge?
      I've always wondered that.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • End Religion

      It's cool, fred. I wasn't expecting any other outcome from ya.

      February 1, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Willie from Wala Wala

      . . .and then fred ran to his other job, where he has the lead role in the upcoming movie, "Zombies Pastors" . . .

      February 1, 2013 at 2:48 pm |
    • fred

      Akira
      One of the threads that runs through the Bible is that the true nature of a man is revealed in real time not hypothetical’s. We see the great angelic being (Lucifer), man and Jesus were all made in the image of God. That image of God includes the capacity for creativity which requires thinking outside the box. Self awareness and introspection are not simply critical thinking skills but have emotional ties with love, compassion etc. Those faculties must be exercised (tested) which brings about growth and strength in various areas. The testing also reveals the true nature of that being. As such Lucifer, man and Jesus were tested in order to reveal their best possible creative goodness.
      Jesus did not fail that test but man and Lucifer did revealing their core nature. Now, I do not know if that is why God did it but I do know the testing story repeats over and over throughout the Bible and is critical to who we really are. We are exposed by our existence for who we are.
      Do not forget there were two trees in the Garden. The other was the tree of life which man was cut off from after choosing the one thing he was warned to stay away from.

      February 1, 2013 at 6:27 pm |
    • Science

      @frede
      choke on that bone hey and talking snake.

      Sorry to many Adams and Eves in gene pool for that story in the bible to work.
      A talking snake , maybe NOT

      February 2, 2013 at 5:42 am |
  5. CHRISTIANITY LIVES ! ! !

    Because there is no cure for stupid.

    February 1, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • Which God?

      You're right. Guess you will have to live out your life being stupid. When you gather some more wit, come back and play.

      February 1, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
  6. Archibald Smythe-Pennington, III

    Yesterday, later in the day, I present two versions of a classic Jobim Bossa Nova song. I think they wound up at the top of page 1 of the Speed Read. Before I leave music of Brazilian influence, I'd like to move ahead and backwards in time. Backwards to pick up a song written in 1941 by Victor Schertzinger (with lyrics by Johnny Mercer); the most popular recorded version of the song was made by the Jimmy Dorsey Orchestra. Now forwards to 2004 where we can pick up Brazilian artist Eliane Elias' beautiful interpretation of this song. Eliane Elias (eh-lee-AH-neh eh-LEE-ahs) is a jazz pianist & vocalist who has firm roots in Bossa Nova & other jazz forms. Still with the side-to-side samba beat in this version, it's "Tangerine". (I love the orchestral arrangement that accompanies this one!)


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliane_Elias

    February 1, 2013 at 11:44 am |
    • meifumado

      Missed your tunes yesterday, i will have go look for them.

      Thanks again for the latest !! it's nice =)

      February 1, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
  7. omniscience

    ..
    sciennce, those are a bunch of tools on that website. they look just like native american arrowheads. Again, I have too many things to do right now. However, the strongest positions in my opinion have to do with observable evidences for rapid geologic processes of all kinds. Rapid rock formation, rapid deposition of sedimentary layering with fine lamina, cross bedded sandstones as evidence of rapidly deposition of sedimentary layers. Rapid decay of the earth's magnetic field. Rapid growth of forests, evidences that they are young, as well as the rapid growth of population evidences that the earth is young, or at least the time since humans were created. Rapid petrification, rapid erosion and depositinal processes There are many more, this is just a smattering. accelleration of radioactive decay is no myth, and there are rocks forming before our eyes. also the ocean has been getting saltier as the rivers run in to them carrying salt. this is another earth clock.

    February 1, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • omniscience

      2) Sin may be either ignorant or willful; active or passive. The guilt which the Sin Offering atones for is that from a sin which was unintentional and unknown at the moment the sin was committed. This means that we can sin even when we don’t intend to. Our culture tends to condemn only those sins which are intentional. God condemns all sin. Indeed, there is no provision made in the law for intentional sin. The kind of sin for which the Sin Offering is applicable is that which was unintentional.

      We may console ourselves that we are not guilty because we did not mean to hurt another. If, however, our negligence has caused injury to another, we are guilty. If we fail to do what we should have done, we have sinned. Though we may not have intended to hurt a loved one by a harsh word, we have nevertheless done them harm. Sins of inaction or of ignorance are sins. God says so.

      1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

      John 3:16 “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

      Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

      Romans 8:37-39 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

      1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
      Love One Another Bible Verses

      Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

      Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:51 am |
    • meifumado

      Please study a little more, Your missing a lot.

      February 1, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
    • meifumado

      And then you post crap,

      Facts please, no fiction.

      February 1, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
  8. lionlylamb

    February 1, 2013 at 11:42 am |
  9. the colosseum is full

    Jesus is real , the gospel is true, Darwin's theory is a theory.. still if scientists wanna depend on it fine with me,..I don't have a problem.. I can't understand why Christians wanna enter into a mental war with people who depend on the things they can see..and make their judgments upon research.. I take all of the bible as literally true; but the only reason I do is because it is already demonstrated it's power in my life.
    If I didn't have the power of God with me , then I would have questions.. that's all the secular crowd want to do ..
    LET THEM ASK QUESTIONS ! until God answers them!
    Christians should also be about proving that they are that rare quarter mentioned in the parable of the sower mentioned in three consecutive books in the New Testament .. The first three I might add. :) :) :)

    February 1, 2013 at 10:56 am |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      Another idiot that doesn't understand the scientific definition of the word theory.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:01 am |
    • meifumado

      I repeat,

      "for an evolutionist to argue with a creationist is like a reproductive scientist arguing with someone who believes in the stork theory"

      February 1, 2013 at 11:08 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      EVOLUTION 101 – By Doc Vestibule

      First we must define what a theory is in the scientific world.
      A theory is what one or more hypotheses become once they have been verified and accepted to be true. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

      There are 5 laws in the Theory of Evolution.
      1) Evolution as such.
      This is the understanding that the world is not constant, nor recently created, nor cycling, but is changing; and that the types of enti.ties that live on it also change.
      2) Common descent
      This is the understanding that every group of living enti.ties that we know of on this planet descended from a common ancestor.
      3) Multiplication of species
      This is the understanding that species either split into or bud off other species, often through the geographical isolation of a founder species.
      4) Gradualism
      This is the understanding that changes take place through the gradual change of population rather than the sudden production of new individuals.
      5) Natural selection
      This is the understanding that individuals in every generation are different from one another, or, at least some of them are. In every generation some individuals survive and reproduce better than others. Their genes multiply.

      Over 150 years of scientific advances are predicated on the proven truths of these 5 laws.
      For a current and very direct application, see the post I made here earlier about the laboratory created enzyme.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:19 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      Sorry if my use of the word theory upset someone :) :) :)

      so sorry ... :)

      February 1, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • Oliver

      "the colosseum" has bats in its belfry.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      It's not your use of the word, it's your blatant, dishonest mis-use of the word.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @colosseum
      As a Bibilical literalist, how to you reconcile the more absurd bits with observable reality?
      there's mention of unicorns (Isaiah 34:7), half man half goat beasts (Isaiah 13:21 and 34:14), flaming snakes (Numbers 21:6), seven headed dragons (Revelation 12:3) and serpents that can kill just by looking at you (Jeremiah 8:17).
      Let's not forget the vocalizing incendiary foliage that Moses met, or the rocks that are supposed to scream if people can't praise Jesus.

      Gen 7:6 tells us that Noah was 600 years old when the flood came which means it has been around 4,350 years since Noah built the Ark.
      The oldest living tree thus far found (measured by ring count) was a Great Basin Bristlecone Pine which was 4,862 years old. That means the tree was around 400 years older than Noah's oldest son Ja.pheth when the flood happened.
      In California there is a colony of Palmer's Oak trees called Jurupa Oak that has been alive 13,000 years through clonal reproduction.
      Professor Frank Vasek confirmed the age of a Creosote bush in the Mojave Desert known as "King Clone" using two different methods. His project counted rings and measured the distance of annual growth, and then used radiocarbon dating on chunks of wood found in the center of the ring. Both dating methods yielded an age of 11,700 years. That makes the plant more than 7000 years older than Noah's flood.

      Are you really so certain that every word of the Bible is meant to be interpreted literally?

      February 1, 2013 at 11:26 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      it warms my heart to be called an idiot or stupid for Jesus names sake... since I have the words of eternal life.. I'll try to remember that ten thousand years from now.. :) :) :)

      February 1, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • Science

      Soul is on bottom of shoe .

      February 1, 2013 at 11:40 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @colosseum
      I haven't made any comments regarding your intelligence.
      I merely provided a lesson in evolutionary theory and then asked a legitimate question, giving specific examples of what I'm referring to.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:53 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      trollollolloollooooooooooo :) :) :)

      February 1, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
    • meifumado

      Its a shame they did not feed you to the lions.

      February 1, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
    • Jahannam

      the colosseum is full,
      " I have the words of eternal life.. I'll try to remember that ten thousand years from now"

      Yeah, you just go ahead and remember that as you sit down there in Muslim hell. :twisted:

      February 1, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
  10. message boards cant fill that hole you feel - but God can

    This is for religious and non-religious people

    Some people may use it as a substi.tute for something that is missing in their life. Just like alcohol, drugs, food and s.ex, message boards can be a way of getting some type of satisfaction that is lacking or missing elsewhere.

    If someone has created an online persona, that too can help boost their ego and fuel the cycle of addiction. In regards to message boards, there are some specifics that can directly feed the circle of addiction.

    Post counts, member status tltles (newbie, seasoned vet (**AKIRA), supreme poster (**HAWAII GUEST) etc) and overall admiration from other members can cause someone to spend more and more time at a board or forum.

    Let count our posts for the past week:

    **"Science": over 300 posts the past 5 days.
    .
    **You could be an internet message board addict.

    **Numbers don't lie
    *

    February 1, 2013 at 10:47 am |
    • Science

      Thank you.
      It works

      February 1, 2013 at 10:51 am |
    • Honey Badger Dont Care

      There is no evidence to support the claim that a god exists. NONE!

      February 1, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • message boards cant fill that hole you feel - but God can

      Said the blind man.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:55 am |
    • Science

      Where is the sin in numbers???

      February 1, 2013 at 11:06 am |
    • message boards cant fill that hole you feel - but God can

      Who said or thinks that numbers can sin?

      That is idiotic.

      Were numbers made in the image of God? Can numbers disobey God's will? Can numbers be selfish? Can numbers be arrogant and self-righteous?

      February 1, 2013 at 11:18 am |
    • Science

      You got that right.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • Oliver

      Belief in god is a substitute for understanding. A very poor substitute, and basically a wimp-out.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • HGuest

      Nelson Mandela = wimp

      February 1, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      @ honey badger ... the evidence is in a small package.. usually fit in a human body... the said body will open it's mouth and say I found Jesus Christ.. he is real ... He did so an so ... from now on I will walk with him...
      My own personal experience with Jesus is that he filled me with the Holy Spirit .. the Holy Spirit himself is the evidence which is given to them who seek him in Christ.. This is the only way one can know him is by his standards .. we are not in position to make demands on him ... in fact he makes all the demands... He demand that you repent ! if you don't then he wont .. that's just the way it is.. If you feel you have no reason to repent them don't .. live out your life as you see fit.. Jesus will be waiting there for you at the end... He will want an accounting of your works whether they can be tried in the fire! :) :) if they cannot last then neither will you..

      February 1, 2013 at 11:32 am |
    • JWT

      My own personal experience is that there are no gods. Dead is dead and I will not be seeing your version of jesus when I die. This works and there is no need for your gods.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Science

      And the soul can be replaced on the bottom of shoe.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:48 am |
    • Science

      Human death = delited carbon. The End.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:50 am |
    • Science

      Oops daaaaang thumb should be deplited

      February 1, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • Akira

      Um...why would you bring up my name?
      Did I out one of your online personas?
      Lol. I notice you didn't name some of the online proselytizers in you 'analysis', some who post much, much more than I...why would that be?
      I suspect you are addicted to many things and are trying to make yourself feel better by trying to accuse others of the same behaviors...in other words, projection.
      Grow up.

      February 1, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
    • bump

      /Um...why would you bring up my name?
      /Did I out one of your online personas?
      you are on here all the time.

      February 1, 2013 at 8:42 pm |
  11. Smelling Salts

    I am fixin' to say some “outrageous shit” man!

    February 1, 2013 at 10:46 am |
  12. Smelling Salts

    @Live4Him

    Live4Him, think not ye be greater than that which is Super Natural! Blasphemer!!

    February 1, 2013 at 10:39 am |
  13. Robert Brown

    1.
    Archaeological evidence demonstrates the historical and cultural accuracy of the Bible.

    2.
    The Bible's message of a loving Creator God who interacts in the affairs of mankind and has provided a means of salvation stands in sharp contrast to the pagan fertility religions of the ancient world as, revealed by archaeology.

    3.
    Archaeological findings demonstrate that the Biblical prophets accurately predicted events hundreds of years before they occurred—something that lies beyond the capability of mere men.

    February 1, 2013 at 10:32 am |
    • Damocles

      Does the bible talk about cities that we have found ruins of? Yes.

      A loving god interacting in our affairs becomes hateful at some point.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:39 am |
    • LinCA

      @Robert Brown

      There are castles in England. That must mean that Harry Potter is real and that wizards exist.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:40 am |
    • Damocles

      Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of bridges that exist all over. Trolls as far as the eye can see.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:42 am |
    • Smelling Salts

      Ok Robert.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:43 am |
    • Science

      Robert Brown where is the sin in numbers please explain ???

      February 1, 2013 at 10:48 am |
    • Saraswati

      "Archaeological findings demonstrate that the Biblical prophets accurately predicted events hundreds of years before they occurred—something that lies beyond the capability of mere men."

      Wow...just...wow...I'm still amazed when I see this stuff.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:51 am |
    • Thoth

      Archeaolgy has also shown us that the holy mecca of nazareth (as currently claimed) didn't exist until several centuries after Jesus' death; and even then could not have supported more than a small extended family. Not to mention it was surrounded by tombs – something Jewish people would never have done (built a city in such prox to burial grounds)....

      Archeaology has yet to provide any evidence of Noah, and has actually provided (in conjunction with other science) evidence that the planet has never been, nor could it have been completely inundated.

      Astrophysicists have explained the Sodom / Gomorah raining of fire.

      I can go on, but I'm sure you have no interest in truth.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:52 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Damocles,

      This is in response to those that say the bible isn’t true. How much of it has to be proven true before it is accepted as truth?

      February 1, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Lin,

      I am sure you know the difference between fiction and non. Not trying to dis potter, it is as intended, entertaining.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:56 am |
    • LinCA

      @Robert Brown

      You said, "I am sure you know the difference between fiction and non."
      I do. I seriously doubt that you grasp it, though.

      You said, "Not trying to dis potter, it is as intended, entertaining."
      Yes, and the only significant difference between the Potter books and the bible is the intent with which they were written.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:00 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Saraswati,
      Refute away!
      The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Doc.uments written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.
      The Hitt.ites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
      Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
      It was once claimed there was no As.syrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
      Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:02 am |
    • Damocles

      @RB

      Oh, I know what you are trying to say. Since there are tons of books about wizards, fairies, other deities, trolls, bridges, trolls under bridges, gingerbread houses, all these things must exist as well. It may take some doing to come up with concrete evidence, but I'm sure we can whip up some sweet smelling BS.

      Again your #2 point is untenable. A loving deity who murders the world? C'mon. It's the same thing as me being angry with my child and wiping out the whole neighborhood in response.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:02 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Archaeologists have unearthed the ancient city of Uruk.
      It matches the descirptions given in the Epic of Gllgamesh.
      Does that mean that there truly was a 3/4 divine King who ruled for 125 years and travelled to the Underworld?

      February 1, 2013 at 11:02 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      Yes Robbert Brown but none of this is adequate enough to compel to believe the gospel..

      Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.... not through arguments! :) :)
      How can they believe unless a preacher be sent ?
      In this country there are far too many preachers already .. we have a 78% affirming Christianity ;' down from a previous mark of 90% in the past .... But the nations of the World have a far less christian representation .. This is WHERE CHRISTIANS ARE NEEDED !!!!! :) :) :)

      February 1, 2013 at 11:02 am |
    • hall 9001

      I'm sorry, "Robert Brown", but your assertions are unfounded. At this time, I do not have on file an Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE) expression as potent and on target as "Saraswati"'s "Wow...just...wow", so please accept that equivalency value as a new minimum low value of truthfulness for your post.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • hal 9001

      Transmission error. Entity alias is "hal 9001".

      February 1, 2013 at 11:13 am |
    • HGuest

      Hal-bot is back.

      Remember mark as spam. CNN promises me they are working on these spammers.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:20 am |
    • meifumado

      @HGuest

      It is not spam.
      It's a much needed service here.
      Also if you look he switched it up a little =)

      February 1, 2013 at 11:44 am |
  14. meifumado

    Blasphemy: Who does it really offend and why ?

    February 1, 2013 at 10:31 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      It offends the righteous.. but as far as Christians are concerned we are ordered to bless those who curse us , do good to them who mistreat us.. pray for them who dis- spitefully hate us! etc. :) :)

      February 1, 2013 at 11:05 am |
    • meifumado

      Who are the "righteous" and why are they right?

      If you ask me blasphemy should not upset anyone, If you have faith in a god who is all powerful would not insults be beneath him? and therefore there is no need to defend your all powerful being.

      So why does Blasphemy bother religious people?

      February 1, 2013 at 11:32 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      Your questioning is reasonable and good.. however young and immature Christians are many times tempted because of their insecurity; they are fragile and can easily be offended .. There are those who would fit into the category of the stony ground in the parable of the sower written in Matthew 13 ; Mark 4; and Luke 8 ; This is probably the most important parable in the bible since is is mention in three consecutive books in the New Testament the first three books! I say it si so important because I feel we are experiencing a lot of the works of the stony grounded people who get offended at any slight on their Christian beliefs ... this is at a high level in the USA since the removal of prayer in public schools and Roe v Wade and anything that Christians pundits can stir us up to create energy among their failing faith ...dark energy I might add..
      The righteous are they who will hear the voice of Jesus when he come sin clouds of glory to catch us all away!!! :) :) :)

      February 1, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • sam

      The 'righteous' are always self-appointed.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:47 am |
    • the colosseum is full

      Jesus will say in that day "COME UP HITHER !!!!!!!!" :) :) :)

      February 1, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • meifumado

      It's not just young and immature christians, you see a wide range of religious people young and old of all types of religions who get offended.

      February 1, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
  15. Doc Vestibule

    SCIENCE!!!
    Researchers at the University of Minnesota have just created an artificial enzyme in a test tube by following the rules of natural selection.

    While a handful of groups worldwide are developing artificial enzymes, they use rational design to construct the proteins on computers. Instead, the Seelig lab employs directed evolution. "To my knowledge, our enzyme is the only entirely artificial enzyme created in a test tube by simply following the principles of natural selection and evolution," says Professor Seelig.

    http://www1.umn.edu/news/news-releases/2013/UR_CONTENT_429344.html

    February 1, 2013 at 9:42 am |
    • Science

      Stuck in a cave in the winter Good Job Minnesota. It is COLD too.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:50 am |
    • Archibald Smythe-Pennington, III

      Oh dear, It's presently -25 degrees in International Falls, MN. I'll be around in a short bit with today's musical selection.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:57 am |
    • Science

      By the way Doc. thanks for the copy great INFO.

      Peace

      February 1, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • meifumado

      Temp has dropped here in NYC as well, but its not that bad.

      But its still a wonderful day without any gods!

      February 1, 2013 at 11:35 am |
  16. Live4Him

    @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son :

    Here are the premises that I base my conclusion upon for the Biblical God / Jesus.

    Natural Origins or Supernatural Origins?
    __ a) Matter, energy and time exist. Where did they come from? There are currently not naturalistic explanation
    that only has supporting evidence for this issue.
    __ b) Life exist. Where did it come from? There are currently not naturalistic explanation that only has
    supporting evidence for this issue.
    Therefore, this implies some supernatural being or event is necessary.

    Which supernatural being or event answers the above issue?
    __ a) Multiple religions address the creation of life, but only three begin with the creation of matter, energy
    and time.
    __ b) Given the Biblical account that begins with the creation of matter, energy and time,
    __ c) Given no other religions (other than the Abrahamic branches) begins with the creation of matter, energy and
    time,
    Therefore, only the Abrahamic religions answer both of the basic issues.

    Did the Judaism God Do It?
    __ a) Given accurate transmission of the Jewish Bible,
    __ b) Given the fulfillment of foretold specific prophecies (incl: Eze 37) in the Jewish Bible
    Therefore, the God of the Jews is a viable contender.

    Did the Islamic God Do It?
    __ a) Given inaccurate transmission of the Koran Bible,
    __ b) Given the factual inaccuracies (i.e. members of the Trinity)
    __ c) Given the lack of specific prophecies in the Koran
    Therefore, the God of the Muslims is not a viable contender.

    Did the Christian God Do It?
    __ a) Given accurate transmission of the Christian Bible (i.e. Jewish / OT and NT),
    __ b) Given the fulfillment of foretold specific prophecies (incl: Eze 37, Rev 13) in the Christian Bible
    Therefore, the God of the Christian is a viable contender. Since it includes the Jewish beliefs as well, it is
    the better answer.

    gt; So, Tom, where are the premises supporting your conclusions?

    February 1, 2013 at 8:59 am |
    • Live4Him

      WOW – The silence says everything.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:10 am |
    • mama k

      "Therefore, this implies some supernatural being or event is necessary."

      No it doesn't. It implies something outside of what we currently know. Because it is outside of what we know, we also don't know if it can be related in a natural way that we still do not understand.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:17 am |
    • Live4Him

      @mama k : No it doesn't. It implies something outside of what we currently know.

      That is based upon your FAITH, not science. You want to believe a naturalistic explanation will come in the future, so you blindly believe it.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:25 am |
    • Damocles

      Something tells me this is going to be much like pounding my head against the wall while a sadistic dwarf pounds my naughty bits with a tackhammer, but..... *deep breath*

      Matter and energy do indeed exist, the verdict is still out on time, at least for me it is. Time is how we humans keep a track of chaos, as I stated in another post. Our measurements of seconds, hours, days etc have no bearing on the things we see going on around us, they just happen. If you are going to state 'my deity has always existed', you run into the wall of 'ok, matter and energy have always existed'. If you state that your deity made matter and energy, you have to explain how it took the supposedly Nothing that existed at that time and made it into Something. So you are, in essence, compounding one impossibility as you see it (where did matter and energy come from) with another impossibility (where did the deity that made the matter come from).

      Many creation stories start with what basically amounts to 'In the beginning there was X and then Y sprung forth'. This is nothing new. Most heads of deific pantheons are credited with the creation of matter and energy. I do think the christian belief system would work better as a pantheon instead of trying to cram everything into one deity. Problems abound when this happens.

      Then, of course, you run into the argument of the supposed perfection of the earth being able to support life. This is stupid as you will quickly realize whenever you decide to try to dive to the bottom of the ocean under your own power. If this is not sufficient enough for you, you can always pluck a dolphin out of the water and toss it into a desert somewhere. Hopefully you will reach the conclusion that the earth is not perfectly suited to life before you kill off all the dolphins.

      What else do you have.... ahhh... judaism, islamic and christian. Yes the three religions that your deity is supposedly responsible for and they have been arguing who is right and wrong since day one. Hardly a heart-stopping case of 'my deity got it right'.

      I realize that your question was directed at Tom and not me, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:28 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You azz. Your claim that simply because we don't know all means goddidit is just plain silly.

      That's what people used to say about disease.

      The silence speaks volumes about the fact that I was showering and getting ready to go to work, dipsh!t.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:28 am |
    • Science

      Numbers do not sin or lie

      February 1, 2013 at 9:30 am |
    • Damocles

      If it helps, my silence was due to the fact that I had to actually type out everything I said. I didn't have any ready made cut and paste answers for you.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:32 am |
    • mama k

      And that's exactly what it takes to jump to the conclusion that something supernatural must be the explanation (purely outside of the folklore that is). Science does not have the answer to this presently, so you cannot prove that science is on your side. (i.e., Vilenkin; fine-tuning, etc. – there is only THEORY, and most of the people involved in those theories do not suggest the God of Abraham). If anything, it makes more sense to stick to what we know naturally until we know more, because otherwise you're making a huge leap of faith – a ridiculous leap of faith. I don't think any of us are comfortable with unanswered questions; unknowns. But, unfortunately, there are many things still unknown, both in the cosmos and within us. It's best to be honest about it.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:36 am |
    • Damocles

      I'm entirely ok with unknowns, it means we have more to learn. Religious faith, god did it, allows for no more learning. You may as well just shut down at that point.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:38 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      When something is unexplained that implies God? You need to fill in a few steps, Live4Him. It's more defensible to suppose that if something lacks a natural explanation it simply lacks a natural explanation than to say that it transcends nature.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:44 am |
    • Science

      How did air get created ? live4

      February 1, 2013 at 9:45 am |
    • A few fun facts!!!!

      >> Numbers do not sin or lie

      The poster "Science" does sin and lie. He also doesn't have degree in science. Or work in a scientific field. Or have any scientific influence on what happens in our lives. But her sure can google, copy and paste.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:48 am |
    • Damocles

      Well l4h declared the silence was deafening after 11 minutes of no one posting to his post, so I'm gonna declare the same thing seeing as how it's been 19 minutes since my long-winded post.

      The silence is deafening.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:49 am |
    • Damocles

      @a few

      Are you his siamese twin that you know so much about him?

      February 1, 2013 at 9:50 am |
    • mama k

      @A few fun facts!!!!

      Are you refuting anything? What's your point?

      February 1, 2013 at 9:52 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Damocles,

      “I'm entirely ok with unknowns, it means we have more to learn. Religious faith, god did it, allows for no more learning. You may as well just shut down at that point.”

      I also am ok with unknowns, not much choice really. Respectfully, I disagree with the rest of your thought. In my opinion, what we have learned thus far is some of how things work and some of how things came to be. How in the world does faith prevent us from learning more? Not all scientists are atheists.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:01 am |
    • A few fun facts!!!!

      "Numbers don't lie or sin"

      I can mislead people with statistics.

      The poster "science" does lie and sin.

      I know it is best to ignore him (*like 98% of people on here do).

      * 98% of people just ignore nuts like "Science". Numbers don't lie.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:03 am |
    • Damocles

      @RB

      I could care less what religion a scientist is, as long as he or she is not trying to hammer science into fitting his or her religious beliefs.

      L4h's base opinion is 'my deity did everything'. If that his his or her response to everything then there is no reason for them to learn anything else. To be fair, though, his response of 'my deity did it' only applies to those things he agrees with, anything else is human frailty.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:06 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Damocles : Matter and energy do indeed exist, the verdict is still out on time, at least for me it is.

      I wasn't asking about YOUR beliefs, but the facts that support your beliefs. It's a simple issue – Is there a naturalistic explanation for MET? No. Going beyond this requires blind faith.

      @Damocles : If you state that your deity made matter and energy, you have to explain how it took the supposedly Nothing that existed at that time and made it into Something.

      How do you propose that anyone explain issues that are beyond human comprehension? We have our limitations (i.e. MET) and everything we know to be true is based upon these limitations.

      @Damocles : where did the deity that made the matter come from

      This issue is known as the logic fallacy of ad infinitum. There cannot be an infinite series of beginnings. Google Aristotle’s Unmoved Mover.

      @Damocles : I do think the christian belief system would work better as a pantheon instead of trying to cram everything into one deity.

      This is illogical. To create MET would require a being(s) who was omniscient and omnipotent. However, one being would be sufficient, since the ability to create MET (due to omnipotence) would also yield omniscience (since time is the key to knowledge).

      @Damocles : you can always pluck a dolphin out of the water and toss it into a desert somewhere.

      You’ve confused the ability for the earth to support life with the ability to support all life in all environments.

      @Damocles : Yes the three religions that your deity is supposedly responsible for

      Not quite. God appeared to man, but that man's descendents corrupted the message into the three religions.

      @Damocles : I realize that your question was directed at Tom and not me, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

      No problem. I always enjoy a good discussion. My post about no responses was directed toward the frequent mockers on the forum.

      @Damocles : my silence was due to the fact that I had to actually type out everything I said. I didn't have any ready made cut and paste answers for you.

      The same here, except that when I come up with something comprehensive and good, I'll save it for later use.

      BTW – I need to step out for a bit, so it may take a while for any further responses.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:10 am |
    • meifumado

      @Live4Him, This is laughable.
      What you wrote is not logical.

      "for an evolutionist to argue with a creationist is like a reproductive scientist arguing with someone who believes in the stork theory"

      February 1, 2013 at 10:18 am |
    • Live 4 Iced-Tea

      @Live4Him

      How can something be "super" natural? If it exists, it is natural. I don't get it.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:27 am |
    • Damocles

      @l4h

      Fine, if it only takes one all whatever deity to create MET, then I do believe that there are a few creation stories that come before yours and based on your argument, these stories renders yours moot.

      You are the one who is slipping into the ad infinum argument. If I can not say that MET has existed without a creator, you certainly can't plunge into the whole 'oh there has to be a creator to create the MET'. This can't lead to anywhere but 'who created the creator'. Ad Infinum. You want your cake and be able to eat it as well. You want the argument to stop where you want it (your deity) but are incapable to see that you have made it impossible.

      I discussed the whole 'perfect message from a perfect deity' issue with a couple other people. If the message is supposedly perfect and the being giving it is perfect, there is simply no room for error. The only way multiple views of the message (religions) could come about is if your deity allowed it and approved of all the strife that arises.

      If your deity is beyond human comprehension how can you know it, being a human? I saw this argument when I was having the discussion about the perfect message. It made me chuckle then and it brings a smile to my face now.

      Pantheistic deities make a whole lot of sense. A deity of this and a deity of that. When you try to cram all deific abilities into one, conundrums arise. A loving deity who tests through death and mayhem makes no sense. A deity who is everything is a deity of nothing. All its attributes would cancel each other out.

      My argument against a perfectly suited planet for life stems from many believers assertion of a 'perfect planet'. The argument is against their use of the word 'perfect'. If the planet is perfect, it should be able to support all life on any given spot.

      I find it odd that you didn't want me to tell you what I thought, but you have no problem telling me what you think. Strange.

      February 1, 2013 at 10:31 am |
    • A Few Fun Facts!!!

      "Science"?
      +
      _
      +
      =
      +
      -
      more like "Silence"

      February 1, 2013 at 10:50 am |
    • myweightinwords

      You don't actually want to discuss this. You want everyone to agree with you. You post this over and over, despite the fact that your basic premise is flawed, and this has been pointed out to you over and over again.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:03 am |
    • sam

      How many times are you going to post this pointless, laughable bullshit? You're embarassing yourself.

      February 1, 2013 at 11:49 am |
    • mama k

      Gullible4Him: "It's a simple issue – Is there a naturalistic explanation for MET? No. Going beyond this requires blind faith."

      Actually there is NO proven explanation of any kind. So what. So if you continue to use this as a "given" toward your assumptions, then always expect a rational rebuttal.

      Gullible4Him: "How do you propose that anyone explain issues that are beyond human comprehension? We have our limitations (i.e. MET) and everything we know to be true is based upon these limitations."

      For many things now you can't explain them. So don't make flying, leaping assumptions just to feel comfy. Second statement – true, so just watch which things you put in the known category and which things you, for now, are best left in the unknown category.

      February 1, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
    • ilias

      Prophecies do not come from true holy men or women but from egotists that have gained a little spiritual power from some kind of prayer or ritual. They usually suffer as a result of this and lose their power. A true master has no reason to make any prophecies. It is possible Abraham was influenced by the vedic Mitanni that controlled the region at that time. This belief system is much older than the Hebrews. Read Platos writings on Socrates to get a glimpse of this belief.

      February 1, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
  17. Live4Him

    @Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son : cut-and-paste is okay if you're the one doing it, but if someone else does so it means he can't think for himself?

    Are you wishing to engage in a debate with me, where I support my beliefs and you support yours? Lets go!

    February 1, 2013 at 8:51 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      Answer the question, hypocrite.

      February 1, 2013 at 8:52 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      You claimed that anyone using cut and paste couldn't think for himself. What's your excuse for using it?

      February 1, 2013 at 8:54 am |
    • Science

      Billions of dollars have been wasted defending the talking snake and they lost.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:04 am |
    • Science

      NEW stem standards created by the majority of states for science education in public schools in US god(s)/bible not included.
      Peace

      February 1, 2013 at 9:20 am |
  18. Atheism is Good for Everyone - Kids Too!

    Different kinds of fundamentalist Christians now as much as ever are arguing with each other with as much sense and rationality as a flock of chickens. They can't support their beliefs by any reasonable means, yet they deem themselves fit to judge others from those beliefs or attempt to put others in the midst of their religious infighting. Their beliefs have a very weak foundation and are not consistent, ergo the over 30,000 different denominations.

    Thomas Jefferson

    Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.

    John Adams

    I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.

    James Madison

    During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

    Thomas Paine

    I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

    February 1, 2013 at 8:26 am |
    • Live4Him

      So, what's your message here? That you can cut-n-paste well or that you cannot think for yourself?

      February 1, 2013 at 8:28 am |
    • Robert Brown

      Atheism,
      Christians disagree on a lot of things, most of which do not matter.

      Christian = a person born again by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

      The same post gets the same reply.

      February 1, 2013 at 8:32 am |
    • Science

      Numbers work and do not sin or lie .

      February 1, 2013 at 8:36 am |
    • Atheism is Good for Everyone - Kids Too!

      Hmm – some people don't seem to care for the words of the key framers of the U.S. Constitution. I wonder why? . . .

      February 1, 2013 at 8:37 am |
    • Live4Him

      I can copy-n-paste too!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

      Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.

      A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson[18][19][20] (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.[21] Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[22]

      Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".[23]

      February 1, 2013 at 8:44 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son

      So, Liver, cut-and-paste is okay if you're the one doing it, but if someone else does so it means he can't think for himself?

      February 1, 2013 at 8:47 am |
    • Science

      It works and google who won debate last night with Williams and Dawkins
      Einstein letter, set for auction, shows scientist challenging idea of God, being 'chosen'

      By Jessica Ravitz, CNN

      Decades before atheist scientist and author Richard Dawkins called God a "delusion," one world-renowned physicist – Albert Einstein – was weighing in on faith matters with his own strong words.

      “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends,” Einstein wrote in German in a 1954 letter that will be auctioned on eBay later this month. "No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

      Peace

      February 1, 2013 at 8:50 am |
    • Damocles

      I don't think anyone more than 2 days dead would recognize the supposed quotes of what they did/did not say.

      February 1, 2013 at 8:51 am |
    • Atheism is Good for Everyone - Kids Too!

      I have no problem with what you posted Gullible4Him. I contend that since they were influenced by Deism, they were able to step back from the infighting that was occurring between different Christian sects in their home states and recognize the absurdity of it. Had the key framers (Madison, Jefferson) not been able to recognize it, they would not have been so fervently anxious to build that wall of separation of church and state:

      Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

      The Civil Govt, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, Whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State.

      (James Madison – 4th POTUS, chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & the Bill of Rights)

      Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

      (Thomas Jefferson)

      February 1, 2013 at 9:04 am |
    • Atheism is Good for Everyone - Kids Too!

      Quakers were being hung in Massachusetts at the time, so it's pretty easy to see why Thomas Paine felt the way he did.

      February 1, 2013 at 9:09 am |
  19. Robert Brown

    It is true that some of them did not believe the message. But does this mean that God cannot be trusted, just because they did not have faith? No, indeed! God tells the truth, even if everyone else is a liar. The Scriptures say about God, “Your words will be proven true, and in court you will win your case.” If our evil deeds show how right God is, then what can we say? Is it wrong for God to become angry and punish us? What a foolish thing to ask. But the answer is, “No.” Otherwise, how could God judge the world?
    (Rom. 3:3-6)

    February 1, 2013 at 8:16 am |
  20. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Pray without ceasing in 2013
    Prayer changes things

    February 1, 2013 at 7:57 am |
    • hal 9001

      I'm sorry, "Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things", but your repeated assertions regarding atheism are unfounded. Using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency module (IEE), the expression that best matches the degree to which your repeated unfounded assertions may represent truths is: "EPIC FAIL". Perhaps the following book can help you cope with the problem of repeating unfounded assertions:

      I'm Told I Have Dementia: What You Can Do... Who You Can Turn to...

      February 1, 2013 at 8:13 am |
    • Jesus

      Prayer does not; you are such a LIAR. You have NO proof it changes anything! A great example of prayer proven not to work is the Christians in jail because prayer didn't work and their children died. For example: Susan Grady, who relied on prayer to heal her son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died and Susan Grady was arrested.

      An article in the Journal of Pediatrics examined the deaths of 172 children from families who relied upon faith healing from 1975 to 1995. They concluded that four out of five ill children, who died under the care of faith healers or being left to prayer only, would most likely have survived if they had received medical care.

      The statistical studies from the nineteenth century and the three CCU studies on prayer are quite consistent with the fact that humanity is wasting a huge amount of time on a procedure that simply doesn’t work. Nonetheless, faith in prayer is so pervasive and deeply rooted, you can be sure believers will continue to devise future studies in a desperate effort to confirm their beliefs!

      February 1, 2013 at 8:30 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.