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A killing, a life sentence and my change of heart
Jeanne Bishop, left, and her sister Nancy visit Scotland in 1990, the year before Nancy's murder.
February 2nd, 2013
10:00 PM ET

A killing, a life sentence and my change of heart

Editor's note: Jeanne Bishop is the sister of Nancy Bishop Langert, who, along with her husband and their unborn child, was shot to death by a juvenile. Since the murder of her family members, Jeanne Bishop has been an advocate for gun violence prevention, forgiveness and abolition of the death penalty. She is a criminal defense attorney in Chicago.

By Jeanne Bishop, Special to CNN

(CNN) - I have been paying close attention to the changes coming since the U.S. Supreme Court struck down any mandatory life sentences for juveniles who kill.  A teenager killed my sister.

He killed her dream, too. She wanted to be a mom.

My sister Nancy married young.  She was overjoyed when she got pregnant at age 25.

That dream died three months later, when she and her husband walked through the front door of their home and found their killer waiting for them.

He was a 16-year-old with a history of violence.  He wanted to see what it was like to kill someone. He found out when he broke in and shot Nancy, Richard and their unborn baby and left them to die on a cold basement floor.

When the killer was arrested, details emerged that turned my stomach. He had joked about murdering my family members, even attended their funeral.

When he was convicted of the murders, he was remorseless. When he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, I was glad.

After sentencing, my mother turned to me in the courtroom and said, “We’ll never see him again.” I was glad of that, too.  I wanted to wipe him off my hands like dirt.

I never spoke his name. I wanted his name to die and Nancy’s to live.

When a coalition of people (including law professors such as Bernardine Dohrn and Randolph Stone whose advocacy on behalf of children I have always admired) launched efforts to abolish juvenile life sentences, I was appalled. The last thing I wanted was to attend parole hearings year after year, to beg bureaucrats not to release the person who had slaughtered my loved ones.

So I publicly fought any change in the sentence.  I told myself that fight was not just for my family, but for other family members of loved ones murdered by juveniles who would be affected.  I was like Saul early in the Book of Acts, the righteous one with a zeal for justice, before he was struck down and humbled and given a new name: Paul.

Then, I repented.

My road to Damascus moment didn’t come in a blinding light or a voice from heaven. The voice that changed my heart was that of a Mississippi-born, Vietnam veteran, Yale-educated  Southern Baptist pastor and academic named Randall O’Brien.

O’Brien told me something true - that Nancy’s killer and I are both children of God, equally beloved and equally fallen. O’Brien reminded me of Jesus’ example on the cross of what to do with those who have harmed us: pray for them.

I had never prayed for the person who killed my loved ones; I had never even uttered his name.

I say it now: David Biro. I began praying for him in the only place I could: the garden where Nancy and Richard and their baby are buried. I dropped to my knees and asked God for something I never could have imagined, that Nancy’s killer get well enough to get out someday.

I don’t know that he will; he is not there yet.  But I do know that no one, including him, is beyond the forgiveness and redemption and purpose of God.

My two young sons taught me that. We were talking about loving your neighbor as yourself.  Stephen asked, “What about the person who killed Aunt Nancy?”

Brendan replied, “We can’t love what he did. But we have to love him, because God made him for a purpose.”

Brendan is right. God made each of the juveniles serving life sentences for a purpose.  I can no longer support a sentence that says never.

Repenting privately would be cowardice, since my past support for locking up some juveniles forever has been so public.  So when lawmakers in my state of Illinois consider bills next month that would abolish juvenile life sentences, I will be there to speak in favor of the mercy of a second chance.

Dr. Marcus Borg, a biblical and Jesus scholar, notes that the roots of the Greek word for “repentance” mean “to go beyond the mind that you have.”

My mind is changed; my heart is remade, and a new task lies ahead.

- kramsaycnn

Filed under: Belief • Guns • Violence

soundoff (1,981 Responses)
  1. Ruzmarin

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    February 3, 2013 at 6:05 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I made a bundle using my 3200 core computational cluster. It really, really works. Go out, get a job, and get your employers to buy you one.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:51 pm |
  2. Austin

    , the strongest positions in my opinion have to do with observable evidences for rapid geologic processes of all kinds. Rapid rock formation, rapid deposition of sedimentary layering with fine lamina, cross bedded sandstones as evidence of rapidly deposition of sedimentary layers. Rapid decay of the earth's magnetic field. Rapid growth of forests, evidences that they are young, as well as the rapid growth of population evidences that the earth is young, or at least the time since humans were created. Rapid petrification, rapid erosion and depositinal processes There are many more, this is just a smattering.

    there are many forms of accelleration of radioactive decay rates! there was a group of scientists on the website that posted a bunch of various results from different dinosaurs that dated at 20-40 thousand years old.

    based on my personal experiences , and data, I have trust worthy experiences involving both the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and the presence of demonic evil. Therefore I have no issues assuming that
    Radiometric dating is calibrated based upon the fossils found nearby, which is then used to date the fossils themselves, this would be no suprise if it were proven to be true.

    February 3, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • End Religion

      Every aspect of young earth creationism has been refuted. Here are all the arguments and refutations: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc

      February 3, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
    • Bob

      Wow, Austin, you really are that stupid. You score very highly on the Creationist Claptrap Scale. Look it up.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • Live4Him

      Here's something that I posted previously on the subject.

      THE DATING GAME

      Well, its a new week so it's time for a new topic to be discussed. This week, we'll be discussing radiometric dating. How did the experts reach the conclusion that the earth was millions of years old? Most people not in the geological field believe this determination came from radiometric dating techniques. Nothing could be further from the truth.

      Geology When the field of geology was first getting started, geologists were looking at the numerous layers (strata) that appeared in the cliffs. Many of the features that were found were originally assumed to be caused by the Biblical worldwide flood. At that time, there wasn't a stated Biblical age of the earth, so they presumed that the earth was an infinite number of years old. This was known to be illogical so it was accepted to be somewhat less than infinite, but still a very long time.

      ChristianityThen, James Ussher published a chronology of the Biblical timeline, stating that creation was on October 23, 4004 BC. This 6000 year history was much too short for geologists to accept. So, with this estimate, the race was on to determine the age of the earth.

      Physics In 1779, Comte du Buffon used the cooling rate of a sphere to determined the age of the earth to be 75,000 years old. In 1862, Lord Kelvin (as he was later known) improved upon his work by using physics. He assumed that the Earth had formed as a completely molten object and determined the number of years needed to cool to it's present temperature. Using this method, he initially determined the age to be 400 million years, but subsequent revisions increase his precision and adjusted his estimate down to just 20 million years. Other physicists duplicated his experiments and came to similar conclusions.

      Evolution At the same time, Charles Darwin had revived the Greek's theory of evolution. Adherents to this new philosophy also realized that even 20 million years, much less the 75,000 years, was much too short for evolution to have occurred.

      Unification So, there were three conflicting sciences on the age of the earth. All of them conflicted with the Christian view. Was reconciliation possible with these three differing views? Salvation came from the discovery of radioactivity. In 1896 radioactivity was discovered and nine years later it was determined that radioactive materials generated heat. This heat could melt an equal weight of ice in less than an hour. Geologists were quick to point out that this heat undermined the physicists assumptions which were used in their calculations to determine the age of the earth.

      Radiometric Dating With the discovery of radioactivity, came the co-discovery of radiometric half-lives. A half life was the period of time needed for a radioactive material to decompose into its stable daughter element. For example, radioactive carbon (i.e. Ccarbon-14) will decay into a stable form of carbon called Carbon-12. While some radioactive materials have a short half-life (C14 – 5,730 years), others like radioactive potassium have a long half-life (K40 – 1.3 billion years). Assuming that there is a fixed ratio of parent-daughter elements at the beginning and that there is a steady decay rate, experts theorized that they could use this decay rate to determine the age of an item.

      Carbon Dating Carbon is a part of our atmosphere. When carbon is high up in the atmosphere, sunlight can cause C14 to form from C12. Because C14 will decay over time, a ratio between C14 to C12 will develop. Carbon is a part of every living organism – as carbon dioxide. Plants absorb it while animals will expire it. Since C14 is a part of the atmosphere, every living organism should have this same ratio of C14 to C12 in its cells. Once that organism dies, new C14 will no longer enter that organism. Thus, the C14-C12 ratio will gradually fall as the C14 decays. With these assumptions, the C14-C12 ratio can be used to date how long ago that living organism died. Because of its short half-life of 5,730 years, accuracy tapers off so that effective dating is limited between 30,000 years and 60,000 years (depends upon the method used).

      Dating Failures So, how accurate is the carbon dating method? There have been a number of failures to accurately date dead organisms. For example, a freshly killed seal was dated to have died 1,300 years ago, while as fresh water snail was dated to have died 27,000 years ago. These issues exposed the problems with the underlying assumptions of radiometric dating. Subsequent research has postulated that the oceans act like a C14 sink, raising the C14-C12 ratio.

      Carbon Dating Calibration Over time, small fluctuations in the C14-C12 atmospheric ratio occur. These fluctuations require some method of calibrating the radiometric dating results to ensure accuracy. Using dendrochronology (i.e. counting the tree rings), radiologists can fine-tune the results of the measurements to yield a calendar date. However, this is limited to a living tree. The oldest living tree is named Methuselah. This bristlecone pine is approximately 4,850 years old. Therefore, carbon dating accuracy is limited to less than 5,000 years ago.

      Potassium (K-Ar) Dating Failures Using the recent island of Surtsey to calibrate the potassium argon method, a scientist found the age of the lava to be many millions of years old. Later, it was postulated that atmospheric argon had diffused back into the cooling lava, yielding the excessive age. Another example was the island of Haualalai (Hawaii) which formed in 1800-1801. It was dated to be 1.6 million years old by the Potassium-Argon dating method. So, it was clear that long-term radiometric dating methods needed to be calibrate too.

      Long-Term Radiometric Dating Calibration According to Frank Rhodes, the only known method of calibrating long-term radiometric measurements is by using fossils.

      Fossils are the most important single method of correlation. Fossils are the remains of, or direct indication of, prehistoric animals and plants. Although they are influenced by environment of deposition, similar assemblages of fossils generally indicate similarity of age in the rocks that contain them.
      Rhodes, Frank H.T. – Geology, Western Publishing Company, 1972, pg 72

      So, they use radiometric dating to determine the age of a fossil, while using fossils to calibrate the results. Talk about circular logic!

      February 3, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      More ICR sophistry that can be dismissed by simply googling any of the claims. Again, do not indulge the loony that is L4H. He'll keep reposting this nonsense if you do.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • Athy

      Your post is full of factual errors, especially concerning radioactive decay.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:01 pm |
    • End Religion

      The Wedge Strategy
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy
      Organized creationist effort to overturn evolution and "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions" through the public marketing of fraudulent pseudo-science.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
    • Bob

      End Religion, glad you posted that bit about the "wedge" strategy. A very sinister move by creationists, for sure.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:12 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Athy : Your post is full of factual errors, especially concerning radioactive decay.

      So you claim, but fail to provide evidence for such a claim.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
    • Athy

      Live4Him

      The half-life of a radioactive element is the time it takes for one-half of it to decay, not all of it. C14 is not produced from C12 by the action of sunlight, it is produced from nitrogen-14 by the action of cosmic rays in the upper atmosphere. Small variations in the C12/C14 ratio over time are well known from core samples of ancient ice. In any event, the error due to this is relatively small. Ancient earth-age estimates are low because the heat effect of radioactive decay in the earth's core were unknown at the time. All you'd need to do is google the correct information, something you are apparently unable or unwilling to do.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:28 pm |
    • Answer

      Creationist maggots are so lame.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:29 pm |
  3. Mark A. Spatz

    I feel terribly sorry for this woman. Not only has she suffered a terrible loss, but religion has duped her into praying for her family's killer. By doing so, he will reside in her mind forever. My sister-in-law was murdered, and frankly, the day they carry out the death sentence the perpetrator got at trial can't come soon enough for me. And religion, god? Might as well believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All religion is a lie, and god an evil fairy tale told to fools to keep them in line and fleece them of their money.

    February 3, 2013 at 5:48 pm |
    • Chad

      What investigation have you done into the God of Israel that has led you to reject Him?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
    • End Religion

      What investigation have you done into Elephus that has led you to reject It?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
    • hmmmmm

      this dialect is incredibly similar, "spagetti monster, fairy tale. I say this one is bunk.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • John

      It is a little surreal reading a comment where someone says they know God isn't there... when you know he is.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • Chad

      @End Religion "What investigation have you done into Elephus that has led you to reject It?"
      @Chad "none.
      The belief in the God of Israel is mutually exclusive with belief in anyh other god"..

      so, the question remains, what investigation have YOU done into the God of Israel that has led you to reject it.

      let me guess: "none" :-)

      February 3, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Bob

      Chad, get off your high horse, ass hole. Practically everyone in the western world has had your god fables pushed at them and is very familiar with them. Some of us just have the courage and the brains to reject your Christian fairy tale for the nonsense that it is.

      Present your evidence or p!ss off already.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
    • End Religion

      I am Elephus' only prophet and she has assured me there is no God of Israel. She tells me the one thing you could do to convince anyone would be to provide empirical evidence for your god that is accepted by a majority of scientists. Then she giggled uncontrollably for about 30 seconds..

      February 3, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
    • Sanfrancisco

      Chad, Good point as usual! :)

      February 3, 2013 at 6:20 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      The God of Israel. :-) Check it out or else you'll have to explain why you didn't.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:54 pm |
  4. ricky

    on the 9th of AV , gregorian calendar, israel sent 10 spies out to view the promised land. they brought back a bad report and despised what they saw. This date ended up being cursed
    Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the temple on the 9th of AV
    600 years later rome destroyed the temple on the 9th of AV
    Jews were kicked out of england on the 9th of AV 1290
    Jews kicked out of spain ln the 9th of AV 1492
    WW1 started on the 9th of AV
    Hitlers proclomation to kill the jews was on the 9th of AV

    the last two years that there were 4 consecutive blood moons in a row, were 1949 and 1967, Israel reinstated and the 6 years war, and the next is in 2014- 15 4 consecutive blood moons, one on the passover, and this same year is a sabbatical year. the blood moon is associated with the return of Christ. this is the last time that will happen this century.

    February 3, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • End Religion

      lol, yet another name... and you called me a coward? What is this, 5 name sin one day? Do you have some other conspiracy theory you could flog or are you just going to post this 20 times a day until 2015 comes and goes for you to see your end times conspiracy is yet more religious fraud? How many "end times" must come and go for you to catch on to the pattern?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • austin

      what end times are you associating him with? the mayan calander? please inform me where the church was wrong before in an end times assumption. that is slander.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
    • austin

      How many prophecies in the book of Daniel have come true? do you think that it is fiction that Daniel was a eunic? im only asking because God repeatedly uses men in rough places to do His work of revealing His sovereign voice. Moses.....Joseph......Daniel, ............jeremiah........a statistical analysis is exactly what you refuse to pay attention to.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:58 pm |
    • End Religion

      jackass, please tell me more about your conspiracy theories. Was 9/11 an inside job? Where do you stand on JFK? Have you been probed by aliens of Bigfoot? The Bilderburgs? I mean, mix it up a little so we're at least entertained by your insanity.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:34 pm |
  5. Geoffrey

    I love this page, no I love it. There are always those who don't believe in God, Christ or the Holy Spirit trying to convince me that I'm wrong in believing. I always always wonder, Why?". What's in it for them. Is it a selfsatisfaction that I have turned from God? Is is an evil delight that a Christian has turned from God? If so then i must consider them a handiman of Satan, who takes complete delight in turning good to evil. Who takes delight in the loss to God of each and every soul.

    On the other hand when most Christians I know see a soul turn to God for forgivenss, there is joy. Joy at a soul that must not know the torments of Hell.

    Ms. Bishop must scare the hell out of Satan. Here she is showing the same grace and mercy that Christ showed on the cross. "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." I would say the same to those of you trying turn people from God. You don't know what you are doing. You are blind, you don't want to see. You are deaf, you don't want to hear.

    Her prayers are for every sinner, me included

    February 3, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      Reading and comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • End Religion

      I suppose it doesn't mater to you that your god and your jeebus never existed?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • Bob

      Geoffery, I won't speak for other atheists, but I'm personally here because deluded Christian idiots impact the laws that the rest of us have to live by, and also negatively impact scientific progress, especially in medicine (historically, in many other fields of science too).

      So, get used to it, kiddo. The great pushback against your religious, supersti-tious lunacy is getting rolling and your silly beliefs won't be holding sway for much longer.

      Now, again, how come your pathetic little "omnipotent" goddy boy can't just do away with Satan? Rather pathetic god that you've made for yourself there.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      February 3, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • Austin

      I agree

      February 3, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
    • Live4Him

      Hello there. Good post!

      February 3, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Bob : how come your pathetic little "omnipotent" goddy boy can't just do away with Satan?

      Why does God allow evil?

      There are three distinct arguments for this issue.

      Punishment Theodicy: All the evil in the world is caused as a punishment for some past sin. A person sins, he is punished.

      Free Will Theodicy: It isn't God who is responsible for the pain, but our own rebellion that causes the pain. Our misuse of our free will brings suffering down upon us. A person who is prevented from ever choosing to do wrong never freely does good.

      Soul-making Theodicy: God provided the conditions necessary for the development of character in his people. This theodicy claims the following four factors necessary for this soul-making.
      __ • There must be free-willed beings,
      __ • There must be an environment in which these beings can exercise their freedom in morally significant ways.
      __ • There must be challenges to the characters of the free beings who have been created.
      __ • There must be opportunities for these free beings to respond virtuously as well as viciously to their challenges.

      Combined Theodicy: This argument is a combination of all the above.

      Morris, Tom, Ph.D. – Philosophy for Dummies, IDG Books Worldwide, 1999, pp. 270-273

      February 3, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • John

      ER, I know both Jesus and God exist. So your claim that they don't, is much like someone claiming the air they breathe has nothing in it, because you can't see anything in the air, or you just don't want to believe the air has anything in it. It is your choice to reject God and ignore the obvious.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
    • Bob

      False analogy, John. Do try again, stupid. While you are at it, boasting about your nasty sky creature, have a look at what the Christian book of nasty AKA the bible has him demanding that you do:

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      February 3, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • End Religion

      John, air has molecules that can be observed. There is no empirically observed evidence for any god.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:58 pm |
    • Jeffision

      You assume that if someone doesn't believe in "God" that they "turned away" from "God". Implicit in this thoughtless assumption is that everyone naturally believes in "God" at some point before "turning away". This is a self-serving assumption. I was raised in a 4th generation family of non-believers.There was never any need to "turn away". But even the word "nonbelievers" is too strong. Your "God" was in the same category as Zeus or Horus...curious myths that existed but that nobody paid attention to, let alone "believed". Also implicit in your post is that people who regard your "God" as myth are somehow less moral, less inclined to turn the other cheek, less compassionate, than those of you who have been absorbed into the myth of "God". This assumption is enormously arrogant and self-serving. It's fascinating how easily you and other Christians cast non-believers as "bad" and yourselves as "good", and then fight those that you've cast off. Equally fascinating is the enormous ego that easily does this with no self-reflection. Perhaps you should read the article again in order to take away the real message that you seemed to have missed...the one about judging without knowing.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • John

      ER, there are so many accounts from eye witnesses, and you reject all of them, because you yourself did not interact with God, to then write up your own account of it... that anyone you know, would claim you're insane if you reported such. It is the same thing all through history, some interact with God and write it up, while others demand direct proof, before they reject God anyway. You got what you wanted, and so did God.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • austin

      slavery was a humane option for the people God had commanded to be driven out. because Israel was told to treat the slaves better than employees "as family" this extended the same grace to them as the Israelies were given. It also gave them the ability to take place in the atonement ceremonies. that is a key factor.

      Israel as a vehicle for God's law, the revealing of sin to the world, and the road to salvation. Nothing is more important than this. They were livining in a warrior time period, and their rivals were living under the curse of sin and had become diseased and defiled. Hebrews married in the family to preserve the blood line and genetic purity.

      It is not wholesome to question the morality of God in a time that can not be related to . The world as a whole suffers in the wake of sin. Man, and salvation, is the glory of God. sin has consequences, and salvation, justification, redemption are freely given. God is a wrathful, loving God. He cuts off every dead branch to give life to His fruit. He is fire, burning away the chaff, refining the metal to a pure state, and He molds His earthen vessels as a potter does clay.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
    • austin

      @jeffision

      if you read the ten commandments, there is a generational effect on people who do not honor God. you should confess the sins of your generations and repent. it is in the first 4 commands. this is serious. dont be stubborn and hard hearted. "don't take one for the team" its not worth it, deliver the truth to your family they need you. that is who you are supposed to be. a living witness, and sacrifice. a slave to the cross through the baptism of the Holy spirit, and submersion into the water of freedom from sin.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm |
    • John

      Bob, that's not many compared to those killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Are you suggesting God should have had more killed to keep up with those in the last century? There were other wars too, for example the Iraq war recently, 172,000 civilian and combatant deaths. Was God being too soft on them?

      February 3, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
    • End Religion

      John, I never interacted with Augustus Caesar. There's sufficient evidence he existed. There is not one piece of credible evidence for your miracle jesus. not one. You will see evidence all around you for jesus because you want to, but that doesn't make it so in reality. This is why, at the end of this argument, every time, the Christian scholar must retreat into faith. There simply is no credible evidence, and certainly no empirical evidence, that the supposed son of god ever existed.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:43 pm |
    • John

      ER, you will always deny anyone saying Jesus exists because you have faith that anyone saying such is either delusional, or a liar, including all the eye witnesses at the time, the historical account matching the events of the time, and Josephus mentioning Jesus in his history write up at the time. Jesephus was a Jewish historian, and he wrote of the man many claimed was the messiah. Those eye witness accounts have to remain "bunk" for you to maintain your belief that he doesn't exist. Meanwhile, I know he's there.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
  6. somapradhan

    What NEVER ceases to amaze me is that we don't discuss what youth like David Biro go through to create the monsters they are. He didn't one day wake up and think, "Oh, I've got a taste for blood." It was a process. The end of this article touches on it, but why don't we actually address the problem? Why are we so afraid to pull off the band aids that we are so thrilled to talk about and inspect the wound? It's really bizarre to me. And sickening.

    http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20113567,00.html

    February 3, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
    • Chad

      very difficult problem to address from a purely secular perspective, it would involve having all parents being evaluated for suitably.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:07 pm |
  7. Gerald Hoefen

    Remember god is perfect being ,man is evil one .Man been blaming god or devil for all their evil deeds since beginig time. Why would god make the devil if god is perfect he didnt but man insist devil made him do it perfect excuse. Reality devil doesnt exist but evil in mans heart truely does exist. Alot evidance to prove man evil one all along. When schools start teaching kids in grade school ethics along with reading will have good kids coming out school. Common sense should be another class for kids in grade school. Grade school is beging an end for kids ,if ya get young anoth most problems can be over come in midle high school. We really dont need any more super preditors on streets we allready have anoth kids who where ruined by ssytem

    February 3, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • End Religion

      Nipples for men? Your god is hardly perfect, though it's easy to imagine it since he's fictional.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:09 pm |
    • Earthling

      God is imaginary. Religion is nonsense. Use your brain for a change – THINK about things.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @End Religion : Nipples for men?

      Why shouldn't men have them. They're the same kind as women.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Earthling : God is imaginary. Religion is nonsense. Use your brain for a change – THINK about things.

      An apriori conclusion without support evidence and you claim that you're THINKING?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
    • Akira

      Adam was created with nipples...why? CLEARLY they are not used to provide sustenance to offspring...

      February 3, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • End Religion

      "They're the same kind as women."

      And so illustrated is one of the many problems with dimwitted creationist pseudo-science.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Akira : Adam was created with nipples...why? CLEARLY they are not used to provide sustenance to offspring...

      The DNA is similar (XY vs. XX) between male and female. The main difference between the two is that some genes are turned on while others are turned off. If the differences were greater, then they could not mate and produce offspring.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • Akira

      Mary, completely missing the point; God could have created Adam any way he wanted to; he made him with nipples.
      Cut you bull and answer WHY God made him that way.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Akira : Cut you bull and answer WHY God made him that way.

      So they could produce offspring.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
    • End Religion

      I have to hear what Adam's nipples have to with creating offspring.... is there some technique you'd like to share?

      February 3, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
  8. Katzeyes4U

    How can Jeanne Bishop preach that she's forgiven him when she has just won $300k from David Biro's parents....??? Seems like a back handed forgiveness to me...

    February 3, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      I've searched this and there is no proof of it. There is however proof that the kids parents went bankrupt in 1996 after having lost a lawsuit to the deceased ladies family. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-12-19/news/9612190073_1_lee-bishop-million-judgment-ordeal

      February 3, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • captain america

      So what part of canada is Chicago in? You bscanadians just can't mind your own business can you? There's your sign.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
    • Akira

      SHE didn't win anything;
      "The Bishops previously obtained a $300,000 judgment from Biro's parents, also of Winnetka, in a separate wrongful death case." Back in 1996.
      Save your self-righteousness; what you wrote was plainly a lie to whip up anger for no reason at all.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
    • Maggie

      Here is America we think people should have the right to speak freely. Canadians have access to our series of internet tubes and can use the interwebs just like we can.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
  9. Live4Him

    Why does God allow evil?

    There are three distinct arguments for this issue.

    Punishment Theodicy: All the evil in the world is caused as a punishment for some past sin. A person sins, he is punished.

    Free Will Theodicy: It isn't God who is responsible for the pain, but our own rebellion that causes the pain. Our misuse of our free will brings suffering down upon us. A person who is prevented from ever choosing to do wrong never freely does good.

    Soul-making Theodicy: God provided the conditions necessary for the development of character in his people. This theodicy claims the following four factors necessary for this soul-making.
    __ • There must be free-willed beings,
    __ • There must be an environment in which these beings can exercise their freedom in morally significant ways.
    __ • There must be challenges to the characters of the free beings who have been created.
    __ • There must be opportunities for these free beings to respond virtuously as well as viciously to their challenges.

    Combined Theodicy : This argument is a combination of all the above.

    Morris, Tom, Ph.D. – Philosophy for Dummies, IDG Books Worldwide, 1999, pp. 270-273

    February 3, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Why does god allow evil?
      1) Men made god, so they can give him any traight they desire.
      2) Men are capable of doing things that could be called evil, so their god needed to reflect that.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Richard Cranium – Men made god

      How do you know this to be true?

      February 3, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
    • Answer

      Creationist's tripe.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Answer – Creationist's tripe.

      Is this the BEST you can do? Try a little harder. Put some thought into it.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • Answer

      "How do you know this to be true?"

      ==Question your own belief. How do YOU know you have the right religion? How do you know your silly delusional god is there?

      February 3, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
    • Answer

      You can't even string up a decent conclusion on your own belief system.

      First thing you maggot creationists need is to produce up a god.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • Ed

      Why is Christian god such a cruel, punishing pr!ck?

      February 3, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Answer : Question your own belief. How do YOU know you have the right religion?

      Here are the premises that I base my conclusion upon for the Biblical God / Jesus.

      Natural Origins or Supernatural Origins?
      __ a) Matter, energy and time exist. Where did they come from? There are currently not naturalistic explanation
      that only has supporting evidence for this issue.
      __ b) Life exist. Where did it come from? There are currently not naturalistic explanation that only has
      supporting evidence for this issue.
      Therefore, this implies some supernatural being or event is necessary.

      Which supernatural being or event answers the above issue?
      __ a) Multiple religions address the creation of life, but only three begin with the creation of matter, energy
      and time.
      __ b) Given the Biblical account that begins with the creation of matter, energy and time,
      __ c) Given no other religions (other than the Abrahamic branches) begins with the creation of matter, energy and
      time,
      Therefore, only the Abrahamic religions answer both of the basic issues.

      Did the Judaism God Do It?
      __ a) Given accurate transmission of the Jewish Bible,
      __ b) Given the fulfillment of foretold specific prophecies (incl: Eze 37) in the Jewish Bible
      Therefore, the God of the Jews is a viable contender.

      Did the Islamic God Do It?
      __ a) Given inaccurate transmission of the Koran Bible,
      __ b) Given the factual inaccuracies (i.e. members of the Trinity)
      __ c) Given the lack of specific prophecies in the Koran
      Therefore, the God of the Muslims is not a viable contender.

      Did the Christian God Do It?
      __ a) Given accurate transmission of the Christian Bible (i.e. Jewish / OT and NT),
      __ b) Given the fulfillment of foretold specific prophecies (incl: Eze 37, Rev 13) in the Christian Bible
      Therefore, the God of the Christian is a viable contender. Since it includes the Jewish beliefs as well, it is
      the better answer.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      Not this idiot again. Stop humoring him.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • End Religion

      This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

      John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

      Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

      Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

      John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the guts out of you."

      Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

      John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

      Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

      Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

      Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

      John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

      Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

      Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

      Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

      John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

      Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

      Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the guts
      out of you."

      Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

      John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

      Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

      John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

      Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

      Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

      Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

      John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

      Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

      John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the guts out of you."

      Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

      Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

      Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

      John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

      Me: "Who's Karl?"

      Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

      Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

      John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

      From the Desk of Karl
      1. Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
      2. Use alcohol in moderation.
      3. Kick the guts out of people who aren't like you.
      4. Eat right.
      5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
      6. The moon is made of green cheese.
      7. Everything Hank says is right.
      8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
      9. Don't use alcohol.
      10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
      11. Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the guts out of you.

      Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

      Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

      Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

      John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

      Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

      Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

      Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the guts out of people just because they're different?"

      Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

      Me: "How do you figure that?"

      Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

      Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

      John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

      Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

      John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

      Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

      Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

      Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

      John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

      Me: "We do?"

      Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

      Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

      John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

      Me: "But...oh, never mind.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Ed : Why is Christian god such a cruel, punishing pr!ck?

      A doctor gives a child a shot, even though he knows in advance the shot will hurt the little girl.

      Is this doctor a 'cruel, punishing pr!ck'? No. He's giving the shot to help the child to heal.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
    • John

      God lets good and evil grow together, so the good is known good... and the bad is known bad.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • Answer

      Take a look at your stupid reply. You reference your bible as truth. "the bible says so, the bible is true, so it backs up my opinion because the bible is there."

      Try again retard.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Answer : You reference your bible as truth. "the bible says so, the bible is true"

      Nope. I tested the Bible to determine its accuracy. For example, Ezekiel 37 talks about the rebirth of Israel. This occurred in May 1948. Should this evidence be ignored because it supports the Bible? Not unless the person wants to lean upon his/her own apriori beliefs.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Thousands of gods have been created to reflect the morals and the environment of the culture that worshiped them. No religion has ever developed in two geographically unrelated areas, simultaneously but independently. Gods only go where their believers take them, which explains why the christian god took 1500 years to reach the New World.

      Gods formerly credited for natural phenomena have faded and died as those phenomena have been explained by science (For example, how many thunder gods have come and gone?). There is no irrefutable evidence for the existence of any god.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:59 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @tallulah13 : There is no irrefutable evidence for the existence of any god.

      Actually, there is. In the Bible, God is protrayed as an omniscient being. It also has a passage where God's prophet foretold of the re-birth of Israel. This happened in 1948. This is irrefutable evidence supporting the Biblical God. Does this mean that there are no other explanations? No. It just means that one's faith requires a greater leap to span the gap between evidence and conclusion.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
    • tallulah13

      So what you are saying, Live4Him, is that you want to believe something, therefore it is proof.

      I guess I have higher standards.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • Akira

      End Religion: regarding your 4:51 post: BRAVO!!!

      February 3, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @tallulah13 : So what you are saying, Live4Him, is that you want to believe something, therefore it is proof. I guess I have higher standards.

      Are you saying that Israel DOESN'T exist today? Or are you saying that you want to pretend this is not connected to the Biblical prophecy? In short, what you mean by higher standards?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Akira : regarding your 4:51 post: BRAVO!!!

      You actually READ that post? It was nothing but a strawman – a logic fallacy.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
    • End Religion

      Akira, FYI, I don't know where my 4:51 post came from. It isn't mine. Someone posted it here many months ago and I grabbed it.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
    • Akira

      Yes, I read that post, and it's every bit a good of work of fiction as any other post I read here, Mary.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @End Religion : Someone posted it here many months ago and I grabbed it.

      So, what you're saying is that logic fallcies are your cup-of-tea. Got it.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      @Live4Him You wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it fvcked you missionary style.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @TANK!!!! : You wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it fvcked you missionary style

      It's really sad when your opponents are reduced to posting this kind of garbage. You cannot present a logical rebuttal, so you post this kind of trash to hide the fact that you cannot reason in a logical manner.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Akira : it's every bit a good of work of fiction as any other post I read here, Mary.

      Well, girlfriend, when are you coming to NC?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
    • Akira

      End Religion: well, I copied it also; it's a wonderful allegory to the circular logic constantly used.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
    • Answer

      "Nope. I tested the Bible to determine its accuracy. For example, Ezekiel 37 talks about the rebirth of Israel. This occurred in May 1948. Should this evidence be ignored because it supports the Bible? Not unless the person wants to lean upon his/her own apriori beliefs."

      ==A self fulfilling prophecy – is that your best explanation? You can't even realize how pathetic you are?

      You've haven't understood that even if one event in the bible is reliable (and accurate as to accord an account to history) that it doesn't mean the bible is 100% correct. Take a look at the Kings writing. Scientists can verify the accounts with the Babylon's own written down accounts and verify that Kings is correct. What does that one item prove?

      That ONE thing was written down in your bible as having accurate information. What about all the other entries?
      You maggot creationists love to take one instance of so called truth and say "now all the bible can be SAID to be correct."

      Go think some more you maggot. Ask yourself if one thing validates equates to a complete 100% validation?

      Is that how your world works? 1 = 100%? So why don't you apply logic and find out what percentage in your bible is accurate. A perfect bible is your view correct? Go prove it.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
    • Earthling

      Asking why god did or does anything is like asking why rocks can't swim. It makes no sense to ask about traits and abilities for inanimate objects or imaginary beings.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:27 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      @ Live4Him What reasoning is there to be done with a young earth creationist conspiracy theorist? I've seen people here try to reason with you, and all you do is beg the question and repost the same nonsense arguments for your god over and over again. I will not be drawn to such a futile endeavor.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
    • Akira

      Mary, why would I go to NC looking for you when your IP clearly is from upper New York State?
      Deny deny deny is the hallmark of the liar.
      I detest liars.
      Have a fabulous afternoon.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Answer : A self fulfilling prophecy – is that your best explanation?

      How do you conclude this is a "self fulfilling prophecy"? What are your premises that lead to such a conclusion?

      @Answer : You've haven't understood that even if one event in the bible is reliable

      This is like arguing that "just because one specie evolved into another doesn't mean evolution is reliable". It's nonsense. The scientific methodology is that once evidence is found to support a theory, that theory is considered a "law" unless additional evidence is found to falsify the theory. Given that you admit that one event is reliable, do you have contrary evidence?

      @Answer : 1 = 100%?

      Actually, that IS the mathematical result. If you don't believe this, format the number 1 as a percentage in Excel – it will show 100%. And, if we enter the number of proven falsification of the Bible, it would be 0 over a number (lets say 100) which would still lead to a 0% falsification rate.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      I repeat my warning: do not indulge this wacko creationist sophist.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Akira : why would I go to NC looking for you when your IP clearly is from upper New York State?

      Okay, I'm going to call you on this issue this time. You obviously don't understand the internet / networking. However, I DO understand it as I've got a computer background. There is only two ways that you can have my IP address. These are:

      1) You work for CNN (or at least the religion blogs server area). However this is very dubious. IF you did, you wouldn't have just my IP, but my email address too. And if you DID have that, you would not be calling me Mary. Second, CNN would be violating my privacy – which it has vowed not to do. So you don't work for CNN (even as a subcontractor).

      2) You know my home computer, as well as all the other computers that I use. Again, if you DID have that, you would not be calling me Mary.

      So, while I don't like doing so, I'm going to call you a liar on this issue.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @TANK!!!! : I repeat my warning: do not indulge this wacko creationist sophist.

      This would be GREAT! Get all the nonsensical posts off and God's message could be seen by others!

      February 3, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      @ Live4Him

      Feel free to add 'lack of reading and comprehension ability' to your ever-growing list of cognitive deficiencies.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • Akira

      Mary, I do not work for CNN; I do not have possession of your e-mail.
      Nor would I care to.
      I have both your home and your work IP's; how I obtained them is legal, although not germane to this conversation.
      Since you supposedly have such a background in computers, (ha!) using your vast "knowledge", you can figure it out.
      You may certainly call me a liar; that is also another common tactic of a liar: deflect by accusation.
      You are not who you are professing to be; I caught you, deal with it.
      You are the worst sort of proselytizing Christian: the one who resorts to lies to make her point out.
      Hypocrite.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:54 pm |
    • Answer

      @Lie4

      You really are a nutjob. You can not even see the context of 1=100%. Here let me remake that reference in the context of just one sentence seperated by itself instead of having you extrapolate the information that I put forth in the whole remark to you.

      Does 1 EVENT out of ALL the events in the bible reliably given credit to and verified by scientists as accurate PROVE THAT 100% of ALL the other events? The answer is a definite NO.

      Read you maggot.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:01 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Akira : I have both your home and your work IP's

      That would mean that you came into my home, which I know you didn't. Yet, you continue to claim that I live in NY, rather than NC. I can prove my claims, while you can just keep on repeating your baseless accusations.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:01 pm |
    • End Religion

      "I tested the Bible to determine its accuracy."

      My goodness but this is still good for a laugh each time I read it. Thanks for your entertainment value, Lie4It.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:02 pm |
    • Answer

      "I tested the Bible to determine its accuracy."

      ==Ya this sentence is so false in so many ways. It even applies that one has went out with enough resources to perform the vast number of testing to achieve a 100% complete evaluation. It's a flat out lie.

      You need money, time, equipment and the resources do it. Creationists maggots just love making up flat outrageous claims.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:07 pm |
    • End Religion

      GREAT NEWS EVERYONE!
      Lie4It has proven that Dr. Seuss' "Green Eggs & Ham" is a true story! After all it talks about ham, and since ham exists the entire story is true! SWEET! I'd like ot go ahead and make my reservation with Sam I Am to have some green eggs and ham in a box with a fox.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Answer : Does 1 EVENT out of ALL the events in the bible reliably given credit to and verified by scientists as accurate PROVE THAT 100% of ALL the other events? The answer is a definite NO.

      It's really sad what is passed off as logic these days. You need to separate out all the events into THREE not TWO groups.

      1) TRUE: The first group is those that have been proven to be accurate.
      2) FALSE: The second group is those that have been proven to be false.
      3) UNKNOWN: The final group is all the events that haven't been proven in either direction. These events cannot be used in the denominator without violating the logic fallacy called : argument from ignorance.

      So, if you have just one event that falls into category 1 or 2, then the denominator would be 1 and numerator for either group 1 or 2 would be a 1. So, we would see

      1) TRUE: 1/1 = 100%
      2) FALSE: 0/1 = 0%
      3) UNKNOWN: remainder of the events to be tested.

      http://fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html
      If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:11 pm |
    • Akira

      Uh, Mary, you don't need to go into one's home to find out one's IP addy.
      As a person who "has a background in computers", you should know that.
      Your IP addy isn't sacred, Mary; it's not priviledged information in any way, shape, or form.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
    • Answer

      Go read maggot creationist.

      How many events are in the bible? How many have you proven/evaluated?
      You want to do a simple math of 1/1 = 100 to worm your way out of what I typed out. Go try harder.
      Want to go for 2/2=100 and not realize that what I had typed out had context in the preceding?

      Let's do the math.. wow 2 out 2 is 100%.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:22 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Akira : Uh, Mary, you don't need to go into one's home to find out one's IP addy. As a person who "has a background in computers", you should know that.

      Well, you're right that my IP is floating around on the internet, but since you don't have any way of identifying it from the millions of others you wouldn't be able to claim it is mine. So, again, you have two options to identify that IP with me – 1) Work for CNN or 2) Come into my home / my service provider. So, what magic did you use to identify this one unique address with me?

      When a message is "pinged" out across the internet, there are two pieces of information that is in every message. The originating address and the destination address. The second is used to direct the message to the correct server. When it reaches that server, the response is composed and sent back to the originating address (where it becomes the destination address). For all the servers in between, they cannot associate that IP address with me. BTW – this is why the government must have the cooperation of the company owning the destination server to identify a given individual. They obtain this cooperation with a court order.

      And yet YOU claim to be able do identify my IP without such need. Perhaps you should contact the government and offer your services?

      February 3, 2013 at 6:31 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Answer : How many events are in the bible? How many have you proven/evaluated?

      This doesn't matter, as all the event not evaluated fall into the third category. What matters is how many are evaluated and into which category do they fall. Since all the evaluated ones fall into the TRUE category, then it is 100%.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:34 pm |
  10. MinnyTX

    You have been through an inspiring journey. I admire your peace and thoughtfulness.

    February 3, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • tallulah13

      One would hope that she would prefer her sister and her family alive and well over this "inspiring" journey.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:09 pm |
  11. dale

    Blessed are the Cheesemakers
    Matthew 15:22-26

    22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
    23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
    24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
    25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
    26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

    really cheesy deception?
    --------------------------------
    Jesus was drawing out the woman's faith as a blessing because God knows your heart.

    " 25 The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26 He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

    if you are desperate to use scripture without the proper and honest context, like your buddy Bob, then just remember that Satan is the master deceiver and you are acting just like him.

    why is that?

    February 3, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • Devoted Christian

      Do not puncture a loon
      Oh mouse-like mattress!
      The spleen shrieks.

      Our auctioneers rotate
      Just before the banshee strangles a turbot.
      The butterflies shout "Wow!"
      Terribly.

      False goats are vicious
      Though not really radioactive.
      My bugle-player stupidly
      Garottes the Viking warrior.

      Surely unsound gorillas read newspapers?
      A drenched turbot shrieks.
      My cliche-ridden banshee wobbles indefinitely
      Disguised as a lumpy passer-by.

      Never consult a weasel
      Oh ye auctioneers!
      Surely the anglers plague rubber ducks?

      Our turbot catches a train.
      Loofahs are plump.
      Oysters are bouncy.

      The scarlet policeman nocturnally pummels wicket-keepers.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      dale
      Your god created your satan...shouldn't you be a bit more PO'd at him? He knew what would happen to you directly as a result of his creating satan. He knew it would make you a paranoid self-rightious sheep. Blame your god. I can't because he is imaginary.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • End Religion

      There is no Satan. Try again.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • dale

      we allready know where your rebellion leads. and where this world is headed.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
    • dale

      when are you low class punks ever going to apologize for a deliberate sabatoge of scripture? no instead you sit there and pass it off with no remorse or regret for lying.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      If a god exists, he must be incredibly annoyed at how stupid the christian loons try to make him out to be. If I were him, I would create a hell solely for wackos like these.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • End Religion

      How does one sabotage fiction?

      February 3, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      "we allready know where your rebellion leads. and where this world is headed"

      No Dale, we don't know where our rebellion leads or where this world is headed to. Care to provide the answers to this, backed of course by peer reviewed scientific data and not your buybull?

      February 3, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Dale
      You are either from very low IQ stock, or you are a troll. No one could be this stupid in reality.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • dale

      Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • End Religion

      Seriously, this is supposed to be an inerrant all powerful god and the best he can do for his own cause is Dale? It's like the "Idiot Ice Capades" with Dale in the lead, wearing an over-sized God bobblehead as he falls around the ice rink. It's just pathetic this is the best a god can conjure. Poor fella...

      February 3, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Richard: You can't change stupid and Dale is the epitome of stupid.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • dale

      (Mar 7:23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      dale: Like I said previously to Richard...You Can't Change Stupid and by spewing buybull verse you only prove how stupid you are.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      TP
      Yeah, I got that, but when you see an animal that bad off, you want to help it somehow, either by giving it some food, or putting it out of its misery.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • Akira

      dale=austin=rigo=poe.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      dale
      Jesus freaks
      out in the streets
      handing tickets out for god Elton 19:71
      see I can quote "scripture" too ( scripture means that it was written down.)

      February 3, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      RC: True enough :-)

      February 3, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
    • Akira

      "Tiny Dancer"!
      Good stuff.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
    • dale

      no really though, mystery babylon is the secular world system that will be an bunch of "rebels", and the hore that rides the beast is with the word false religion, who satan LEADS, and the turns around and persecutes. keep in mind people that if you revel in your unbelief, Satan stands before God accusing you for doing so at this very moment. false religion is a powerful deception, that comes in many forms, and denies the deity of Christ, and His resurrection.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Akira
      Bernie Taupin wrote "Tiny Dancer" about the woman who would become his wife... Elton and Bernie, one of the greatest songwriting duo's ever.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      dale
      Again...your god created satan knowing what would happen. Take it up with him. I know they both aren't real so in the words of Eric Cartman...screw you guys...I'm going home.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:59 pm |
    • End Religion

      dale, what colour is the beast?

      February 3, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
    • dale

      @ End Religion
      How many prophecies in the book of Daniel have come true? do you think that it is fiction that Daniel was a eunic? im only asking because God repeatedly uses men in rough places to do His work of revealing His sovereign voice. Moses.....Joseph......Daniel, ............jeremiah........a statistical analysis is exactly what you refuse to pay attention to.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
    • Earthling

      There are many hundreds of thousands of fictional stories like the bible. You can quote from any or all of them – it won't change anything. They will still be fictional.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
    • Akira

      Richard:
      Agree completely about the collaboration of Bernie Taupin/Elton John.

      February 3, 2013 at 6:05 pm |
    • End Religion

      dale, what does the beast smell like?

      February 3, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
  12. Momof5

    Forgiveness is highly overrated!

    February 3, 2013 at 4:04 pm |
    • Dennis

      Actually, forgiveness is not for the person being forgiven but for the forgiver. Not having to carry around that burden called bitterness, resentment, and anger is incredibly liberating. Jesus was a liberal or by the actually definition of the word, generous. He came to liberate us from many things and often we still need to liberated from our burdens.

      February 3, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
  13. psychannie

    I am happy that you have fiund peace and forgiveness; it shouldn't have taken you that long if you had just smoked le'joint. However, the rest of us do not like to have a murderer in our midst . This cretin is a murderer and always will be a murderer. He belongs locked away and if there is an after life, let's hope God locks him away too.

    February 3, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
  14. MarkOkool

    Aids, Cancer, Diabetes, Heart disease, obesity, Chromosomal anomalies, mental illness etc, etc....lump them all together and they have not killed as many people as "religion"... I say "Huck Fim"....let him rot

    February 3, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
    • Chad

      how many people do you believe "religion" has killed?

      February 3, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
  15. Common Sense Blogger

    Your capacity for forgiveness is admirable. It is a quality that can heal a wounded soul and lift one to a better spiritual understanding of life. When I started reading this article I was ready to get on a soapbox about the softening of criminal accountability in this country. While I commend your faith, however; I would stop to consider if this person is truly remorseful before defending his release. It is one thing to forgive but it is another thing to fight to release a man that may very well still have evil or violence in his heart. I know many will dismiss this idea but there are truly evil people in this world and while they may be just as loved by God as the rest we still have a duty to protect the innocent from further tragedy.

    February 3, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
  16. twinmom

    I'll let God forgive them, that way I don't have to.

    February 3, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
  17. Gruber

    It is good that you have forgiven this boy/man. The lesson are for YOU to learn. Yes God forgives. Yes HE heals. Yes HE delivers form bondage (all kinds). BUT you DO pervert God's justice when you seek to let a remorseless killer go free. You sound so pious and sacntimonious, but in the end it is not right. AND you might want to consider whether or not you have Helsinki syndrome....just sayin.

    February 3, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • No

      I'll become an atheist before I forgive someone who coldly killed my sister's family for no reason at all.

      February 3, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
    • Gruber

      forgiveness is not so much for the killer as for the victim (survivor)? It does help one to move on and not drown in a toxic pool of hate and bitterenss. However, trying to undo what has been done, (not the crime, which would be good), but the punishment, is outright perversion. this person needs professional help. I agree with tallulah. This guy sounds like a psychopath. There is NO way to cure him.

      February 3, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
    • Sant

      It's called Stockholm syndrome, not Helsinki syndrome.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
  18. tallulah13

    I googled the guy. He sounds like a sociopath. I hope he never gets out of prison, because I suspect the only remorse he will ever feel is self-pity for getting caught.

    February 3, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • Akira

      This guy is is a total socialpath.
      Ms. Bishop forgiving him is a good thing if it helps her heal; helping to get him out is another thing altogether.
      This man is where he belongs.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
  19. Mr. E. Mann

    With or without the religious justification, I believe that foregiveness frees the foregiver from the prison of hate, etc., and opens their life to the acceptance of what it is without some of the burden that the unimaginable event has placed upon them. While I have my own burdens, as we all probably do, mine do not seem to me to approach Ms. Bishop's. I commend her character and spirit in the face of such adversity, and wish her the best in her pursuits. Eric

    February 3, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
  20. Father O'Blivion

    Oy me lads and lassie's. The youngster jist stepped in fer me pancakes then.

    February 3, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
    • John

      We should all thank God for pancakes

      February 3, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • Father O'Blivion

      Aye Lad, and St. Alphonso!

      February 3, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Akira

      St. Paulie's Girl, also.

      February 3, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • Father O'Blivion

      Akira, the good Father has been known to tip 'o few of those lass!

      February 3, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke and Eric Marrapodi with daily contributions from CNN's worldwide newsgathering team.