CNN's Carol Costello reports on the growing number of Americans who don't believe in God.
20. Wisdom calls aloud outside; she raises her voice in the open squares.
21. She cries out in the chief concourses, at the openings of the gates in the city she speaks her words:
22. "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge.
23. Turn at my reproof; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
24. Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25. because you disdained all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof,
26. I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes,
27. when your terror comes like a storm, and your destruction comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you.
28. "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29. Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord,
30. they would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof,
31. therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled to the full with their own fancies.
32. For the turning away of the simple will slay them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33. but whoever listens to me will dwell safely, and will be secure, without fear of evil."
It's a horrible thing to be turned over into the hands of the "LIVING GOD"
BUT IT'S AN EVEN MORE HORRIBLE THING TO NO LONGER BE PRTECTECTED BY THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD!
Enjoy the fruits of your own way as you see everything you ever hoped for destroyed with absolutely no power to stop it!
On the day you see these things comming to pass you shall know that a prophet has surely been in your midst and if not we shall know that you were right, there is no god, and he has no prophets.
we only have wait and see, are you confident enough to make sure this statement allways show up, or are you to scared of its possibility of being true?
No need to wait. Your god doesn't exist. Prophets are the product of delusional zealots seeking attention. It really isn't anything more than that. Because the world, at this point, insists on giving respect to such childish notions as imaginary gods, it is one of the few ways crazy people can garner any respect for themselves.
I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say, but perhaps this might clear things up for you: There is no evidence that your god, or any god exists. There is no evidence that heaven, hell, satan or any afterlife exist either. So why not just try to be a good, honest person for the sake of being a good honest person?
What happened to god in America? His non-existence is being acknowledged by people with rational minds. Long overdue.
TDU, you put trust in what, science? It won't save you, because the god science promotes, "nothing", never said anything or claimed to have made anything. "nothing" will NOT save you. 2000 years ago God showed he knew about clothing on the sun, it was written down, and to the day, he was right. No one else knew it, no one else could predict it, except one: God. That's the same being you think isn't there, but I'm telling you, he is there. God exists. The stuff the apostles talk about in the New Testament in the bible, it's real. The prophets talking in the Torah or Old Testament, it's real. Your hope that God isn't there, does not make it true, it just makes him turn his back on you, as you have to him. God is the most incredible being in the universe, and you're throwing away the opportunity of a lifetime when you reject him.
Bullshit, god doesn't exist, and never has. You're just deluding yourself.
An apostle said he knew Jesus, Jesus knowing God, and the apostle knew about clothing on the sun and when it would be known. It's similar to someone saying they'd know a street light would come on at a certain time, and then it does... so ya it's a street light... it did what he said.
We get it, John. You believe in something for which there is no evidence because it pleases you to believe in it.
I'm interested in the personal, emotional experiences some of the believers claim. Like they have a seizure focus in some part of the prefrontal cortex. I think that's a research interest of Sam Harris, who's a neuroscientist in addition to being a very sharp debater.
Just another of the mult*itude of antichrists.........................."Joe 3:14 Multi*tudes, multi*tudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision."
"Tom, Tom, the Other One sayz,
I'm interested in the personal, emotional experiences.................."Lot's wife couldn't overcome her rubber necking, either.
Tom, you can't interview apostles and prophets from the bible, that's 2000 years ago. You either believe what they said, or you don't.
You can say that you don't believe in Jesus Christ ,you can say you don't believe he's God,it doesn't change the fact that he exist and is lord over all; just take a deep breath and look at all that surrounds you. Feel your heart beat and listen to the voice of your love ones and see for yourself that Jesus is real, and that two big rocks colliding in outer space did not and couldn't create you me or anything else on this planet.You see your denial of him will not change his love for you nor his existence .He is God and Lord alone and he (Jesus) will love you for all eternity whether you choose to go to heaven with him or to hell with the devil, its up to you, but I guess if you don't believe in Jesus Christ then I guess you don't believe that Satan exist either. Well if you're not serving Jesus then you're working for the devil who cares for no one,but there's still time for you to serve the lord and shun the devil ,give your life to Christ my friend and receive eternal life don't be blinded by Satan and say that Jesus is not real, he is real and you know he`s real,deep down inside you know he exists,and the bible proves it know matter how you try to deny it. YOU KNOW HE`S Real! so in your spare time of denial read Romans chapter 10 verses 9 thru 13 and give your life to Jesus Christ the one and only God that gave his life for all mankind, rich or poor that we may be forgiven of our sins and have power over the devil, and help the lost to find their way to salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit...so rebuke the devil and be free, give your life to Christ so you can begin to sleep at night ....I love you all with the love of Jesus Christ.....
@A friend of Jesus
Your god is no more likely to exist than the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny.
Hey, I wouldn't mind Jesus deep down inside, if you know what I mean, but I think I'd know it if he was already there.
@A friend of Jesus
",it doesn't change the fact that he exist and is lord over all; "
a thing that is indisputably the case: she lacks political experience—a fact that becomes clear when she appears in public | a body of fact.
• (the fact that) used in discussing the significance of something that is the case: the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut.
• (usu. facts) a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
• chiefly Law the truth about events as opposed to interpretation: there was a question of fact as to whether they had received the letter.
Which definition of "fact" are you using? And can you please point to any human above the age of 5 who believes that 2 rocks colliding in space created life?
You realize, friend, that anyone else can say the exact same thing about fairies? However much we may want them to exist, saying "I do believe in fairies" over and over won't actually make them appear. Saying that God is real over and over just reinforces your belief that he is, it doesn't actually prove that he does exist. For that you need a little something I like to call "proof".
You awe of nature is not proof of god. Your ignorance is not proof of god. Humans have worshiped literally thousands of gods throughout history, and ever true believer of every one of those gods felt the same conviction that you do, despite the fact that there isn't a single shred of evidence that any of those gods (even yours) actually exists.
You have chosen to believe something. This does not make that thing true.
T13, look, it's simple, it's like math. Before you can understand math, you have to believe it will do you any good to study it, else you'll probably fail out of math because it doesn't look like it's useful to you, like algebra... most people don't use it because they never believed it had any value to them, so they didn't study it, then they never found out how valuable it is. And afterwards, they realized it did have value, and then they KNEW it was right and all the stuff atught is correct in it. That is like the bible. The stuff they say in the bible is real, but you'll know the value of it unless you believe it first, give God a chance first, and then the things like Jesus raising from the dead, it's not such a big deal anymore. People wake up in morgues every now and then, it happens.
The stuff in the bible is real, accept it. There is a higher power, he's God. He made the universe, and his power can easily do the miracles described in the bible. This is obvious, if it wasn't obvious, 33% of the people in the world wouldn't believe it. And if you believe it and study it, then you know it's true from all the stuff said. God's words prove he is right, just believe it, and study, and you'll know it too.
God is worth finding, believe me, good luck.
Stephen, well said. It is clear from most of the responses to your post that many will not be benefiting from the aontment of Jesus.
What happened to God in America? Well, Americans got obese, addicted to TV and violent video games and junk food intolerance. God saw this and wondered "Did I make these folks in my image? ... Nah." Then God gracefully exited and is on permanent vacation somewhere on a beach in the Caribbean waiting for Jimmy Buffett.
Christians also got bigoted, mean, and revolutionary, taking everything "good" out of God worship, leaving everyone else to wonder "Why bother worshiping him if you end up that twisted?"
Here's what actually happened...
The liberal courts decided that prayer and any mention of God is not welcome in public schools.
The liberal courts decided that gay marriage is acceptable even when it is voted down decisively at the polls.
The liberal courts decided that the ten commandments have no place in courthouses; Sharia law is okay, however.
Fred, get real. God hasn't been banned from public schools. Gay marriage is going to be decided in the courts because it involves law, not religion, and because popular opinion does not determine what rights people have.
You sound like a nut.
No, what actually happened is that times change, and younger generations won't put up with the bigotry and superst.ition of their forefathers. It's not being "liberal", it's being progressive.
Letting mobsters take over control of marriage is quite bigoted. Any Bible believer would have protested vigorously.
what happened to god? many years of angry christians finally killed him...
ER, think for a minute, with God making an entire universe billions of years ago, he's not going to fall over dead after making people. Where do you guys come up with this stuff anyway? God is not a weak god like "nothing" that can't do anything. There are 12 witnesses that followed Jesus around and told others all about the miracles he did then, just believe it and stop wasting time when you could be getting to know God better. Seriously.
Legion, after runnin' the pigs off the cliff has found new temples as evident by all the dustballs acussin' the brethren here today.
Without God, people are just walking piles of dust... easy pickings for demons.
What I find interesting about the pig story is that the devils actually tricked Jesus into letting them go free rather than be sent back to hell. They would have been released again once they killed their pig hosts, right? Released to possess other people. What kind of miracle was that?
The miracle was seeing a man go from out of his mind, to normal and then a herd of pigs drown themselves.
You consider Jesus forcing a munch of animals to suffer a painful death just to make a point some kind of "miracle"? The demons went free, free to infect other humans. Jesus was duped, right?
Lenn, the demons begged Jesus to not send them into the abyss, they ended up in the sea. What Jesus did afterwards with them, it doesn't say. The pigs would die eventually anyway.
If God is so powerful, why does he need a human government to prop him up?
It is an honor for somone to uphold God and his throne. Some in government attempt to do that, while some dont. It is a constant struggle between the haves and the have nots... and Mars knows we still trust God.
For the same reason that god can't travel anywhere that humans don't take him. That's why it took 1500 years for christianity to reach the new world. Either god is lazy, indifferent or nonexistent.
T13, it's set up as a book of rememberance, they'd take it with them where ever they go. And as Jesus told them, his seed, people believing him then, the 12 apostles, that would grow like a mustard seed in to a huge tree... which it did, 33% of the 7 billion people on the planet believe Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, performed miracles using the Holy Spirit, and later sent the Holy Spirit to the followers after dying on the cross and raising again on the 3rd day of being in the hands of sinful men. 33% of the world population believes that.
Another 21% (IIRC) of the world population says they believe Jesus, but only as a minor prophet, and they reject the Holy Spirit as well... and instead they believe Mohammed and a god they call Allah. Given that he rejected the Holy Spirit... it's obvious that he was wrong, and they'll as Mohammed said, have to answer for all their sins... to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... in that they reject Jesus dying on the cross for their sins.
That is a lot of people too, 33+21, or 54% of the world population knows about Jesus, they know he's right. Muslim's got it wrong though about the dying on the cross though, so I'd recommend going to Christianity, and tell Muslims to go there too.
Why do some of you ignore historical facts? They are eye witness reports of Jesus and his ministry. Do your research before making opinions based on what you think. Look around you. Do you really think all this is an accident? Come on. Think about it.
I believe in God. I also believe in the Big Band theory.
So let me ask you a question. if the Big Bang theory is correct and 2 particles collided, where did those 2 particles come from? You cannot get something from nothing.
God started it all. It all makes sense if you open your mind and just think about it.
So, where did god come from?
God said he's the first and the last, no god before him... that includes the false god called "nothing".
Ok, you are a believer.
Since Jesus makes the following clear and concise statements without equivocation about the efficacy of prayers from believers,
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt,not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
[A true believer can ask a mountain to throw itself into the sea, and it will be done. LOL!]
All things are possible to him who believes.
For with God nothing will be impossible.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.
This means that you as a true believer can vastly improve the human condition by praying to end bacterial disease, viral disease, genetic disorders, child abuse, human abuse, and much much more.
So go ahead and do it. Jesus states unequivocally that if a believer asks in his name nothing is too big and it will be done. NO EQUIVOCATION no limits, it will be done.
I assume you want these human maladies to be vanquished, don't you. So as a believer do it.
If matter had to come from somewhere, then a deity had to come from somewhere.
There are also "eye witnesses" to the likes of Peter Popoff and Benny Hinn.
Regarding eyewitnesses, that myth is exposed by David Fitzgerald in the book "Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed At All".
David show the timeline of these supposed witnesses relative to the lifetime of Jesus. This author also shows that there were historian / writers who were contemporary with Jesus and these writers would have an interest in chronicling the supposedly extraordinary events surrounding Jesus, but did not. One contemporary writer was even mentioned in the bible but made no mention of Jesus.
Contemporary eyewitness: MYTH EXPOSED
"(Mr.) Fitzgerald currently holds a degree in history from California State University, Fresno and has been actively researching the historicity of Jesus for over ten years. Formerly an associate member of the defunct Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion, Fitzgerald now serves on the boards of the San Francisco Atheists and the San Francisco branch of the Center for Inquiry. He is also the director and founder of the first Atheist Film Festival, as well as San Francisco's oldest Darwin Day celebration, Evolutionpalooza."
Not what you call a stellar biography for an "expert" in the field of religious studies !
Now for some expert studies and references regarding the historic Jesus:
From Professors JD Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.
"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.
“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.
“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "
“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.
I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."
See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .
Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.
Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.
There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus
See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.
"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.
Then there are these scriptural references:
Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )
Added suggested readings:
o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
3. Historical Jesus Studies, faithfutures.org/HJstudies.html,
– "an extensive and constantly expanding literature on historical research into the person and cultural context of Jesus of Nazareth"
4. Jesus Database, faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html–"The JESUS DATABASE is an online annotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bissar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/seminar.html#Criteria
7. Writing the New Testament- mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/testament.html
8. Health and Healing in the Land of Israel By Joe Zias
9. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
Continued from above:
10.The Gnostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on Ancient and Modern Gnosticism)
by Douglas Groothuis: equip.org/free/DG040-1.htm
11. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
12. The Jesus Database- newer site:
13. Jesus Database with the example of Supper and Eucharist:
14. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
15. The Journal of Higher Criticism with links to articles on the Historical Jesus:
16. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
Continued from above:
17. Diseases in the Bible:
18. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, ethics, etc.
19. The Jesus Seminarians and their search for NT authenticity:
20. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
21. Writing the New Testament- existing copies, oral tradition etc.
22. The Search for the Historic Jesus by the Jesus Seminarians:
23. Jesus Decoded by Msgr. Francis J. Maniscalco (Da Vinci Code review)jesusdecoded.com/introduction.php
24. JD Crossan's scriptural references for his book the Historical Jesus separated into time periods: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf
25. JD Crossan's conclusions about the authencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the conclusions of other NT exegetes in the last 200 years:
26. Common Sayings from Thomas's Gospel and the Q Gospel: faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan3.rtf
27. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
28. Luke and Josephus- was there a connection?
29. NT and beyond time line:
30. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
31. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
32. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
33. The books of the following : Professors Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
34. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
35. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus
Pete, your god and your jesus never existed. There is not one single credible eyewitness account. It's all a fraud. Come to grips with and move on.
Several early Christian apologists claimed that the reason the gospel stories looked so much like *earlier* pagan stories was the Satan himself had set it all up in advance – a pre-emptive strike to confuse everyone. That's the ticket – it's wasn't plagiarism, Satan done it! okee dokee, wink wink.
God's existence is in doubt because we have no solid evidence. Just asking "Where did it all come from?" doesn't prove God exists. If God could have just "always been" then why can't the universe "always have been?" On Jesus however, most serious historians are convinced he existed. "Reality" posted a massive list of reputable historians, theologians and scholars like JD Crossan and Luke Timothy Johnson, that are convinced Jesus lived and was killed by the Romans. He could have gone on even longer, the consensus on Jesus' existence is almost unanimous. Even Richard Dawkins used to own a Tshirt with the inscription "atheists for Jesus." I can understand people being hostile towards Christianity, many Christians are mean spirited, but Jesus was a real man that lived and died and was literally 2000 years ahead of his time.
Jesus existed but some summarization is needed:
Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple, dirty (a new book), sometimes sick (the same book) preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".
Current RCC problems:
Too many pedophiliac priests and cover-ups thereof, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!
Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics and cover-ups, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,
Again, that's like saying that Dracula was written 115 years ago by the clever Stoker as a means of discrediting the Twilight series. Who would be dumb enough to buy that kind of argument?
No, there are stories of eyewitness accounts of Jesus. Open any John Grisham novel and you can read perfectly fictional stories that also include eyewitness accounts. Actual eyewitness accounts have the eyewitnesses available for cross examination. Who, for example, was an eyewitness to Jesus being tempted when he was alone in the wilderness?
EG, as Jesus said, it has to glorify God, which means it can't be something he doesn't want. For example, someone could request to wipe out the entire earth, that won't glorify God. Someone could want atheists to accept God, for example by doing what you suggested, but that won't glorify God in that atheist's minds become changed to believe God while hating him... not every enjoyable for fruits. He wants people to decide for themselves that they love him. I don't see any issue with what Jesus said given the timing of it, then and now.
For the record, does that mean you also believe the theory of evolution? The historical record supports the gradual evolution of man and all living things as having a common ancestor. If you do not ignore this historical record, then I would ask where does sin and god come into this whole discussion and what role does he play, such that he would deserve our worship, subjugation and grati.tude?
Lenn, God is always a witness. Satan was there too, but his being a witness isn't worth much per se. Either Jesus or God could have shown Luke the events through the Holy Spirit. Given the supernatural events described in that passage, it's odd that you want other witnesses around at the time... you wouldn't believe them either... especially given Satan in the mix.
Your honor, I'd like to call god and satan to the witness stand so they can testify to the things they've seen... oh wait... I guess that's impossible, because reports of their existence are hearsay. Let me instead call to the stand, Kaizer Soze...
GFN, you want proof of everything, and ignore that "nothing" never said anything about making everything.
Huh? Want to try that again?
To my knowledge, Nothing is incapable of communicating anything in the first place. That's what makes it nothing. If it could communicate something it would then be Something.
@ John, And by the way, I don't required proof for everything but I do require evidence for everything. I have a mind and I like to use it. I'm not different than you in that respect. You also require evidence to believe in your god. You're just satisfied with less than I am.
Well, there are no reports of a Jew being flown around the Mid East by a demon around that time, so we don't have any external eyewitnesses. That leaves your Holy Spirit "showing" Luke this scene, which means that he either had a vision (thought of it), or dreamt of it, right? In other words, the whole scene just "popped" into Luke's head, like murderous clowns and antique cars pop into Stephen King's mind, and you expect us to believe that it wasn't just another instance of human imagination?
The gospels are literature! They tell a story crafted from the mind of their individual authors. Do you honestly think that they interviewed Mary 70 years after Jesus' birth, after she supposedly was as.sumed into heaven anyway, for her eyewitness account? Who could have been present during Jesus' trials? Nobody friendly to the Christians very likely, right?
Hundreds of fictional books have claimed, like the Bible, to be true stories. A Million Little Pieces, The Amityville Horror, and Angel at the Fence were all fiction trying to pas.s as nonfiction, and they fooled millions. They demonstrate that people will choose to believe things that they want to be true. That's how gullible people get cheated, isn't it?
So, knowing how easy it is to fool people with a false claim of being nonfiction, you expect me to just accept the claim of the Bible when you'd think me a fool for accepting a similar claim by any other book? Where is the logic in that?
Lenn, you have visions every day, all day long. You see photons arrive at your eyes and you process them in your mind to "record" what you see as you perceive what's going on around you. God handing over a vision to Luke, if that's what it was (the account didn't say), would have the level of detail God would impart to it. That or if Jesus told another apostle, and he told Luke, what difference would that make? It's an account of what happened during the time Jesus was in the wilderness.
For all creationists
Earth’s timeline works better than the bible's timeline
Trace our planet's geological and biological ages
Lenn, Mary was available to talk with by the apostles at the time. In one instance, it's recorded that Mary and other relatives were waiting for Jesus but he asked that they wait until he was done and continued to talk to others. And as was pointed out, God can review all history of everyone, past or future, their entire lives at any time... yours included... you're an open book, everyone is... past, present and future. You're either for or against the most incredible being you probably can't imagine: God. It's better to be for him.
Oh, I can imagine a better being than Christian God: one that wouldn't rely on a flawed ancient book riddled with scientific inaccuracies and contradictions to "reveal" himself. One that isn't completely dependant upon human adoration in order to survive. One who isn't a slave to his volatile emotions, and so petty as to torture those who don't love him. Thanks for the veiled reminder of that, however I must say that a warning about a father's incredible violent side is hardly the strongest argument for loving him. Oh, there are hundreds of ways Christian God could be improved.
If Mary was still alive at the time of the gospels being written then why do the two Nativity stories differ so much? The old girl must have been losing her memory, I suppose?
"it's recorded that Mary and other relatives were waiting for Jesus but he asked that they wait until he was done and continued to talk to others."
Where is this recorded?
I meant "visions" as in daydreams, hallucinations, or something other than normal sight that someone next to you would also see. What you seem to be arguing for is a direct inputting of information into Luke's mind, which you are expecting me to take on faith when various cult leaders all claim to have the same link to God telling them to sleep with young girls, and so on. Objectively there is no reason to think that your story is any more authentic than that of Jim Jones, right? But you are in love with your belief in God, and when a man loves even an imaginary person, like the Percy Sledge song says, he
Can't keep his mind on nothing else
He'll trade the world
For the good thing he's found
If she's bad he can't see it
She can do no wrong
Turn his back on his best friend
If he put her down
Your love of this God character has made you blind to his faults, my friend.
Lenn, your comments against God, here's what it sounded like to me: I saw a Lamborghini drive up, and the first thing I wanted to do was throw up in it, take out a hammer and smash it's windows in, and then set it on fire, because it's too perfect and fast for my tastes... roughly and crudely translated. You expect God to be what, a glorified slug to step on? This is why God doesn't want to know people that don't want to know him... calm yourself down and think it over.
See Matthew 12:46-50 for Jesus asking his mother to wait until he's done talking to them
What is the issue with Mary being told by the angel that she's going to give birth to Jesus at a later date?
Lenn, if God wants to show someone something from across a continent, or hear it, from the past, or in advance by a day, or in John's case, 2000 years in advance, it happens. No joke.
God is no Lamborghini. It's an old clunker that might have looked and ran fine according to the standards back in the old days, but is now showing it's age and has to be coaxed into doing anything. He may have lots of sentimental value, like a gas-guzzling DeSoto, but he isn't meant for today's values and also costs too much to keep up. He's what we use to call "More trouble than it's worth." Some people still love to drive them, but they're not my style, and they don't suit my needs. I wouldn't throw up on a classic car, but I question why anyone would make one their primary means of transportation nowadays. Especially anyone younger than 70.
I would even question why somebody would have a Lamborghini as their only car. It just doesn't seem very practical for taking the kids to hockey practice, or running down to Lowes for lumber. Best to keep it for date nights, Sunday use, and other times when you want to show off. I also believe that God is best kept for Sundays, weddings and funerals. Logic and reason are like the minivans and compact cars of this world; they may not be as se.xy as your God Lamborghini, but they're a better choice for the everyday tasks of this world, right?
How does Matthew 12:46-50 indicate that Mary lived a long time?
Lenn, the example with the Lamborghini arriving and you not knowing how to compose yourself, is crude, God is much more than that, but your response is much the same. God is not some simple "thing" like an outlet of power you plug into and it either is there or not... he's a being, an incredibly intelligent, ultimately powerful being with characteristics you can't imagine. He sends "idiots" to tell you, so you can respond how you really feel towards him, and feel good about your response. He wants you to spell it out, so there's no mistake. And if you don't like the peers telling you about him... that's between you and him later on.
Oh, goody, something new and different–a freak making proxy threats.
Shove it up your azz, John.
John: whole lotta baseless assertions. You seem to be able to imagine every attribute of your invisible buddy god.
Zero empirical evidence for:
– God of Israel
– Miracle Baby Jeebus
"We’ve already seen that a Creator God, like the Christian Trinity, cannot be the ultimate necessary being, because for God to be real, the ultimate necessary being would have to be an all-encompassing reality that included both God and non-God. But besides that, Pastor Feinstein kindly supplies us with another disqualification: the Christian God is dogmatically asserted to be a person. God cannot possess that attribute unless the fundamental nature of reality itself is such that it permits a consistent distinction between that which is a person, and that which is not. Otherwise, the propositions “God is a person” and “God is not a person” are both statements that are equally meaningless and untrue. Once again, the nature of the Christian God makes Him contingent on the precondition of a greater, self-consistent universe." – Deacon Duncan
ER, you forgot the power of the Holy Spirit, the power of God. Jesus has that, it's direct access to God, to have God speak through him, or do God like things. At any time Jesus could have called up angels to stop them, he didn't. His task at the time was to die for sins, to pay for them, for others. Jesus fulfilled what he was sent to do. The power of God formed him in the womb, Jesus later used the power of God in his ministry, and also sent the power of God to the apostles after he ascended. There's no issue with that.
Actually, there are no non-biblical contemporary accounts of Christ. This fact has been gone over time and again on this blog. The bible cannot be counted a valid source, as it is absolutely biased and was written and edited to support a specific viewpoint.
Oh, yeah - There is nothing natural on this planet that required a creator. Your ignorance is not proof of god.
However, I do like the Big Band Theory. I almost bought a Duke Ellington CD today. I may just get it tomorrow.
T13, there were 12 witnesses with Jesus then. Later even more witnesses, like in the crowds and such. The miracles in the NT are, excuse my being crude about it, but the miracles are puny compared to making a universe like God did billions of years ago. Are you saying God can't restore hearing, but "nothing" can make a universe? Fixing hearing is nothing compared to making a universe. This is what helps you to understand that the account is the truth, that when you claim "nothing" can do the impossible, and then claim God can't do something relatively insignificant compared to that, then you are being very biased against God, and giving incredible amounts of credit to "nothing" at the same time... that is unrealistic in the extreme.
Try this, believe God first, now read the accounts in the bible. Now it becomes easy to understand and believe God. And after you read enough of the bible, you'll KNOW it's the truth, you'll just know it, honestly, that's the truth, you'll know it, like your hand, it's there, so is God.
Where is your evidence that a god made the universe, you twit? The Bible doesn't count. It is not proof; it is not evidence. If you have nothing else, then what you have is belief, nothing more. Stop peddling your twaddle.
Tom, the bible is just as valid for evidence of God being part of day to day life as any math text is for proof of math being useful in day to day life. If someone thinks math won't do them any good, it is their loss, be cause math is quite useful, and so is the word of God. The issue is though, many of the things God made, are being described by science, with a lock being placed on those descriptions saying God can't be mentioned at the same time, and that is wrong... it's blasphemy against God.
I am a proud agnostic, not because I am sure I am right but because I don't believe there are any humans smart enough to really know what god wants. Catholic priests don't seem to know. Jewish leaders get jailed for trading body parts. Muslim leaders advocate massive violence and the deaths of millions of decent people just because they believe in a different holy book. If there is a god, when I die I'll look him (her, it whatever) and tell it to it's face that it isn't fair to have one's eternal destiny decided by which preacher they listen to or what language their holy book is in.
I love and respect the good, charitable, comforting works that religious people do; I hate the advocation of violence and hate and arrogance of 'god loved me but not you.'
God wants good friends that love him and want to do what he said to do. If you're not interested now while you're here, why should he be interested later when you're too proud to figure it out? The only God there is, period, is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the one that sent Jesus to die for the sins of others. I'm telling you the end result, up front, no searching required. Or search if you like, but it's a waste of time otherwise to look further.
Athena and the Educratists raise a lot of proud tomatoes in their garden. Diverse, too, and united in their hate of the Creator. They learned it from Cain and his gardening skills.
If you believe that there is a god who wants anything then you're a theist, not an agnostic, right?
Impeach God? We never peached him in the first place!
We have seen nothing yet...
A day, it will be proven that free will doesn't exist cause it just can't work with what modern neurology is telling. It might as well be proven that we are doomed to exist an infinite number of time because of pure mathematical reasons.
It basically has been proven. An experiment was done where a group of people were asked yes or no questions while their brains were being monitored, and the scientists could almost always know the answer the person would give a second before the person cognitively decided. You see, people choose subconsciously before they consciously decide – the conscious action almost always comes first. Therefore, you cannot be said to be exercising free will most of the time because you do not consciously choose – free will must involve consciouss thought. Impulse is not free will.
Not that it matters: free will is not in the Bible. It is a apologetic invented to evade the Problem Of Evil. Parts of the Bible states the ability to choose, whereas others state that things are ordained by god. No free will in the Bible, and rather limited ability to choose in the real world.
We have God given free will, you'd know that if you bothered to read the bible. It's because people choose to sin, that they fail. And because of this, we should all thank God for sending Jesus to die for our sins.
Get yourself a bible, believe God FIRST, then read it. Afterwards God will help you to know he's there. People that do this, they just know it afterwards. The 12 apostles help too, their testimony helps you have faith, so you can eventually know God is there through his word. Good luck.
What happened to Odin in America? What happened to Osiris in America? What happened to Superman in America?
They never were in America. And, along with all other gods, shouldn't be here now. They're all figments in the imaginations of weak-minded people.
For clarity's sake, Superman is a complete ripoff of Burroughs' "Mars" series.
Don't bother with false gods Mopery. Go to the source, God, read the bible, believe it, and then you can know him better.
"His appearance was so marred more than any man. And His form more than the sons of men. ..so He shall sprinkle many nations" . ...Isaiah 52:14-15 It was foretold long ago that Messiah/Jesus would atone for the sins of the world. That is exactly what He did. And though He died for the sins of the world, God's forgiveness is only granted to those who receive it by grace through faith. Not all will benefit from the atonement of Messiah. "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name". ... John 1:12
What hallucinogenic drugs are you taking? You need to reduce the quant!ty or increase the quality.
HotAir. The Word is in the Wind. And the Wind (Ruach Kodesh) is in the Word. Go and learn what this means.
Stephen, this whole "Jesus died to save us and to remove sin" nonsense is just that, a complete steaming pile. The whole premise of Christianity that the death of the son of god would have been any kind of "sacrifice" and was required to deal with "sin" is utter nonsense. This is a supposed omnipotent being that we are discussing. Christians, think this through a bit: how come your 'omnipotent' creature couldn't do all that supposed saving without the loony son sacrifice bit?
And for that matter, how was it a sacrifice at all, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time it wants with less than a snap of its fingers? Pretty feeble god it is that you've made for yourself there. Give that some thought and maybe it will help you leave your delusions behind. You will remain a laughingstock otherwise, and the more you dwell in your silly delusion and ancient myths, instead of keeping up with advances in medicine and technology, the more America slips downward relative to the rest of the world in science and other fields.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
Stephen, I'd be happy to discuss individual verses of The Babble immediately after you:
– prove the existence of your or any god,
– prove that The Babble is the word of any god and
– prove that a man known as jesus was crucified *and* was resurrected
Thanks in advance!
What God said, proves who he is. Your evolution god has said nothing.
What is this evolution deity you keep mentioning?
John, I have not mentioned any god of evolution as I do not believe any god exists. But nice try at deflecting attention from your, or any believer's, inability to answer the most basic of questions about your beliefs.
And how are you doing at explaining why your god created exploding termites?
Despite having the Jewish scriptures to use as a guide in creating Jesus's story, the Gospel writers could not invent him building the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28), gathering all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6), ushering in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Isaiah 2:4), or spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one (Zechariah 14:9). Not only did Jesus not do these things, he did not do them during his mortal lifetime.
God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Not human, get it?
There is no greater arrogance than to pretend to know what god wants, even if it's written in your holy book or if you know a cool Hebrew word for it. If you know anything about the history of the bible you know it was created by many writers, compiled and edited by Roman emperors, added to, translated, interpreted and actually pretty much ignored – except for a few sentences that sound old fashioned that people use to justify their beliefs and actions.
John, you are using the Bible to prove what's in the Bible. Do you sell cars too?
Let's play the quote the bible game.
22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Elmer do you know what that passage says in the original language?
The bible shows its view of women with Lott the righteous.
Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Are you saying that all of the KJV bible literalists have it wrong?
Jesus makes several statements about the efficacy of prayer that are clear, concise and without equivocation.
This means that you true believers can vastly improve the human condition by praying to end bacterial disease, viral disease, genetic disorders, child abuse, human abuse, and much much more.
Jesus made those unequivocal statements about the efficacy of prayer.
The question then is why are the deeply religious believers not praying to end the maladies listed above? Jesus states they can pray for anything no matter how big and it will be done.
EG, that was for them right then, to get the word out quickly and make sure people would remember it. It is up to God regardless if the Holy Spirit will do what is asked. For example, God in most instances has no desire to convince someone that doesn't want to know him, so if what is being asked for violates what God wants, it won't happen.
Stephen, well said. It appears from most of the responses to your post that many will not be benefiting from the atonement of Jesus.
are you all behaving?
What happened to God in America?
......they probably smothered him in cheese and bacon and ate him
"Hi, I'd like to order an appetizer of Jeez Fries, please."
"What happened to God in America?"
The internet, religion can't control the flow of information anymore.
Get in my belly!
All Religions on earth are just fairy tales;
but there is only one Religion of/from ONE GOD which is absolutely True,
here are the ultimate –MATHEMATICAL and SCIENTIFIC– most powerful and superb Proofs:
UNIVERSAL MAGNIFICENT MIRACLES
Like it or not, we really are in a New Age. Religion is being seen for the fiction that it is. Teach ethics instead.
Bingo for stevie68a. We have a winner.
What happened? CNN happened. Along with all the other coyly subversive media. Beware the prince of the power of the air!
"coyly subversive" by presenting the news in a balanced way, instead of being the mouthpiece for the Republican Party, like False ... I mean, FOX News, I suppose?
Secularism long predates CNN. But nice conspiracy theory. I'm sure the black helicopters are watching you.
yuze 8theists dunt no poop. my jewish sky fairy is magik, wen ize drink my alabama moonshine.
ouoooooo yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! me n bubba, we noze the secrets to the univerze. we dunt needz no lernnin, no sir-eeeeee
jeezeuz is all i need of the big N, nowledge
You should really stop beating on that strawman. It can't defend itself.
What does he use for a reference in time and space?
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.