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Who is on God's side of the marriage debate?
March 25th, 2013
11:00 PM ET

Who is on God's side of the marriage debate?

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) – As the Supreme Court considers two major same-sex marriage cases that could change marriage in the United States, religious leaders on both sides of the debate believe they are on God's side of the contentious issue.

In the months leading up to this week's Supreme Court hearings, religious leaders from across the country have held prayer vigils and rallies for their respective causes.

At each event, even those with diametrically opposed views, leaders cite biblical principles as the foundation for their beliefs.

"I believe I am on God's side," Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission and and opponent of same-sex marriage, told CNN. "I have no question in what God says marriage is."

"I do think we are on God's side because my idea of God is someone that is loving," said the Rev. Gary Hall, dean of the Washington National Cathedral and a proponent of same-sex marriage. "My understanding is that kind of God that loves everyone and wants everyone to live a joyful life."

This week, the Supreme Court will hear two cases. One will examine the constitutionality of Proposition 8, a law that prohibited same-sex marriage in California, and the other will test the Defense of Marriage Act, the 1996 legislation that forbids the recognition of same-sex marriages nationwide and bars married gay and lesbian couples from receiving federal benefits.

Marriage and the Supreme Court: Five things to watch

Land and Hall each have actively worked on his side of this debate.

Hall, after taking the reins at the National Cathedral in 2012, decided to marry same-sex couples in the historic church. Land, who has counseled Republican presidents and members of Congress, has written and spoken at length about why same-sex marriage goes against biblical principles.

And although they both believe in the Bible, their opinions on how the text views same-sex marriage are shaped by their views on how literally to read the holy book.

"I come from a tradition that looks at the big story," said Hall, an Episcopalian. "The image of Jesus in the Bible is of someone who really makes everyone welcome, and it is from that perspective that I operate."

Hall acknowledges, however, that the Bible isn't the only guide for this belief.

"Our argument is not entirely scriptural-based," Hall said, after acknowledging passages of the holy book that define marriage as being between a man and a woman. "There is no place in the Bible that I can point to that says Jesus performed a same-sex marriage or anything like that."

In addition to scripture, Hall said, "tradition and reason" anchor his belief that same-sex couples should be allowed to wed. There are about 2 million Episcopalians in the United States.

CNN Belief: My Take: Will gay rights infringe on religious liberty?

Land, on the other hand, cites the chapters and verses that guide his views on same-sex marriage.

"The people who take a more conservative view of the Bible and believe that they are under the authority of scripture almost universally oppose same-sex marriage," Land said about people who agree with him.

For Land, this view is not only consistent but  also roots his belief in "traditional values" and his disgust with "moral relativism."

Land, a Southern Baptist, continued: "The people who are religious and support same-sex marriage tend to take a Dalmatian view of scripture. They believe the Bible is divine in spots, and they think they can spot the spots."

If the Supreme Court decides in favor of same-sex marriage, Land said, the decision would be on par with the court's 1973 decision on Roe v. Wade, which affirmed a woman's right to an abortion.

"I think it will evoke a similar reaction," Land said.

Southern Baptists count 16 million members in the United States.

CNN Poll: 'Rob Portman effect' fuels support for same-sex marriage

This split over the biblical reasoning behind each side of the marriage debate extends beyond just Land and Hall, however. Churches around the country have been divided on the issue, with some choosing to allow same-sex marriage and others to forbid it.

The Rev. Jacqui Lewis, the senior minister at Middle Collegiate Church in New York who has worked with the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation on same-sex marriage, comes down in favor of same-sex marriage.

She uses the Bible - and civil rights - in her reasoning.

"I don't think that people who are supporting gay marriage need to distance themselves from the Bible in needing to find support," Lewis said. When asked about how the Bible anchors her beliefs, she cited Mark 12:31: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

On the other side of the argument is Robert Gagnon, a biblical scholar at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary who has worked with the Family Research Council on the issue.

"Only a woman is a true sexual compliment to a man and vice versa," said Gagnon, citing Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24, along with the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, as the reasoning behind his view on same-sex marriage.

"That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh," reads Genesis 2:24.

As for how he feels about people such as Hall who use the Bible to defend their position in support of same-sex marriage: "You are rejecting Jesus himself. ... Just go ahead and make up your own religion."

- Dan Merica

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Gay marriage • Politics

soundoff (2,640 Responses)
  1. Neil

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NIV

    9 I wrote to you in my letter not to as.sociate with se.xually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is se.xually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside.“Expel the wicked person from among you.”

    March 26, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
    • Salero21

      NIEL

      We need your help where does the bible talk about butt flu and ass polio??

      March 26, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
    • Salero21

      Help us Neil can I catch butt flu from a toiley seat and if so does Jesus ever talk about it??

      March 26, 2013 at 11:21 pm |
    • Salero21

      Neil please

      March 26, 2013 at 11:34 pm |
    • End Religion

      Austin, have you gotten back on your meds yet or talked to a professional about your schizophrenia?

      March 27, 2013 at 1:53 am |
  2. Bostontola

    ......

    March 26, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
  3. Ken Margo

    If you look at the insti'tution of marriage. It's really a disaster.

    Over 50% of marriages fail
    The infidelity rate is closer to 70%
    People marry for money
    People marry to stay in the country
    People marry for health insurance
    You have domestic violence
    You have spouses that kill their spouse (which should count as divorce but doesn't)
    You have child abuse/killings
    Less adults want to get married
    With stats like that, Why is marriage treated like perfection?
    The church should be thankful someone wants to get married. There might not be anyone left!

    March 26, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
  4. Neil

    Matthew 19:4-6
    "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

    Hebrews 13:4-7
    Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the s.exually immoral. Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?" Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

    Genesis 2:22-24
    Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, ' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

    March 26, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • Anon

      More desert myth quotes?

      March 26, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

      March 26, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
    • Salero21

      neel

      where in the bible does it talk about butt flu and ass polio?

      March 26, 2013 at 11:08 pm |
    • End Religion

      Austin, it really dampens your preaching efforts to know you've been convicted of a violent felony and DUI.

      March 27, 2013 at 1:54 am |
    • fintastic

      all written by man............... about a fabricated god.

      March 28, 2013 at 10:30 am |
  5. Anon

    Proper place for the big book of primitive desert myths AKA bible.
    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OgAXbyzP5g&w=640&h=360]

    March 26, 2013 at 10:56 pm |
  6. Douglas

    1down and 1 to go!

    Defend the DOMA!

    Traditional marriage is safe with the SCOTUS!

    March 26, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      I guess you didn't hear how the hearing went today huh?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:29 pm |
    • Gave Them Up

      Not a politicians business. As long as they think it is, it will be corrupted. Have you noticed whatever the politicians touch goes down the tubes?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:31 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Back to the future, are you? The decision isn't due until June.
      Nobody is fooled by your little wishful thinking announcement.
      Tell me, Douglas, how does gay marriage infringe on your right to practice your religion?
      How does gay marriage impact your life AT ALL?
      Worry about your own salvation.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      It's not about same sex marriage. It's about gay coitus. Right Douglas? A chaste homosexual marriage would be just A-OK with God. Right Douglas?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:35 pm |
    • Douglas

      Gay marriage is a fraud.

      The gays try to leverage the Loving v. Virginia interracial marriage case to justify two men or two women marrying.

      Does not compute.

      Loving was about a man and a woman.

      To calim this is the same as gay marriage is to suspend the laws of biological science.

      Don't be duped by the false comparison.

      Gay marriage has no connection with Loving.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:38 pm |
    • Salero21

      You think about gay s.ex even more than gay people Douglas you trailer park discard

      Maybe even more than I do.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
    • Douglas

      To Salero21 (Fake)

      Gay coitus has killed millions through AIDs.
      What is good about that?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I'm intrigued. How do you defend your concept of marriage on the basis of human biology, Douglas?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "Gay coitus has killed millions through AIDS."

      So has straight coitus.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:50 pm |
    • Salero21

      Douglas was traumatized when he googled gaping anus and could not stop looking

      March 26, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Douglas, they used the Bible to argue Loving, also...and that was the same ruling that declared marriage a RIGHT.

      It didn't work THEN, and it won't work NOW.

      Denying ANY person equal civil rights in our secular society is WRONG. Period.

      Again, answer the questions I asked of you:

      How does gay marriage infringe uopn your life at ALL, in any way, shape, or form, either in your religious liberty, or everyday life?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:54 pm |
    • Salero21

      Douglas actually is a gaping anus

      March 26, 2013 at 10:54 pm |
    • Douglas

      @Salero21 (fake)

      The @nus is not a play place.
      Your activities in that area put you and your friends at risk for things like AIDs, influenza, polio, shigella,
      cytomegalovirus, campylobacter and a host of other ailments that you bring down on yourselves with the
      deadly practice of gay coitus.

      Wake up...before it's too late!

      March 26, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
    • Salero21

      You can get all that stuff by putting your no no stick in a woman

      I'm sorry someone gave you butt flu, Douglas, don't let it get you down. Butt flu sounds really hard, do you sneeze from both ends???

      March 26, 2013 at 11:02 pm |
    • clarity

      I'm noticing that Douglas is always fascinated with the dirty details of gay "coitus"; lol. What about nipples, Douglas – are they a safe place?

      March 26, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • Salero21

      WHO THE FUCK ACTUALLY BELIEVES IN ASS POLIO DOUGLAS YOU STUPID FUI>CK? POLIO WAS WIPED OUT, ARE YOU ONE OF THESE ASSHOLES WHO IS FULL OF NON-EXISTENT 'FACTS' AND ALSO TELLS PEOPLE NOT TO GET VACCINES? STUPID FUCK

      WHAT'S WIDER, YOUR MOUTH OR YOUR ASS? CATCH A MILLION DISEASES IN BOTH YOU IDIOT.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
    • clarity

      Oh – I missed that! Polio from gay coitus; my goodness. Ass polio indeed. I suppose if we wait long enough that sounds like it would become an olympic sport.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:07 pm |
    • omg

      LOL clarity!

      March 26, 2013 at 11:10 pm |
    • clarity

      I think Dougie is just too jealous that he's too full of shit to have gay coitus.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • Douglas

      Straight marriage is a fraud.

      The Christards try to deny the Loving v. Virginia interracial marriage case is an obvious parallel to two men or two women marrying.

      Does not compute.

      Loving was about a man and a woman. Sort of. Sometimes the woman was on top, maybe even stuck things places we can't talk about here.

      To calim this is the same as gay marriage is to suspend the laws of biological science. Women don't have dicks. Most of the time. Gays have much better sex and stay together longer.

      Don't be duped by the false comparison.

      Straight marriage is bull.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:15 pm |
    • Neil

      if you put sin ahead of God, you are a habitual sinner. everyone struggles, but not everyone rejects God.

      demonic oppression is the father of ho.mose.xuality. This is straight out of hell started and inflicted by satan. and he has reached the church too in some cases.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:16 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      All right, this is the third time I'm asking Douglas this question; I'm staring to wonder why he is evading it:

      How does gay marriage infringe on your religious liberty, and how would gay marriage impact your daily life?

      March 26, 2013 at 11:19 pm |
    • Salero21

      Neal

      if you whisper that to yourself while you're masturbating to your secret pics of Ryan Gosling does it make you come harder??

      March 26, 2013 at 11:19 pm |
    • Salero21

      Douglas listen

      when you let your anus gape that much you can get your whole head in

      I know that's what must have happened to you! It will be ok we will send a shoe horn and the jaws of life

      March 26, 2013 at 11:22 pm |
    • Neil

      @Salero21
      No it didnt work.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
  7. Ken Margo

    To the crooked Christians: Please grow a pair. Stop hiding behind god. The only reason you're against same s3x marriage is that you're a bigot plain and simple. Your imaginary friend has nothing to with it. That fictional book you call the bible has nothing to do with it. Just be honest. you're not using your real name, so be honest. You cant give a logical reason against same s3x marriage. So you "quote" the bible. A book written by bigots just like you. So I challenge you. Give a logical, non bible reason against same s3x marriage.

    March 26, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Most denominations encourage same sect marriage.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
    • Douglas

      Ken,

      Tradtional marriage is natural.

      Gay marriage is against the laws of nature.

      Why codify bad acts?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:25 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Douglas...........Our laws and rights are not based on the "laws of nature". Besides gay people got here the same way you did. Why shouldn't they have the same rights as you.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:28 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Except there are animals in nature that have same-gender sex.
      And, as Ken Margo said, our civil laws are not based on nature, OR the Bible.
      No reason two consenting, legal adults should be denied the right to marry.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
  8. Moby Schtick

    @Anon

    Yeah, and fvck those fish that can't change s3x. Oh, and let's not leave out the bis3xual dolphins. Can't have those fvckers messin this up for us!

    March 26, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
    • Gave Them Up

      Control your fishy mouth, fish breath.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Pardon, I mean to describe fish that CAN change s3x. I mean, THAT'S sinning!!!

      March 26, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
  9. Unintelligent Designer

    He who fart in church, sit in his own pew (Confucius say). Nothing about how "God" feels about marriage.

    March 26, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
  10. Ponchos raincoat

    If this God cared, then he would come out of hiding, and put an end to this argument on gay marriage. Since this God figure doesn't appear to exist, well...this stupid argument keeps rolling on.

    March 26, 2013 at 10:02 pm |
  11. Gave Them Up

    Of course marriage is a gift from God and a right. Get the government out of it altogether. Politicians should keep to their own business. God does the joining and not any organization, and because those enti-ties always end up socialist and perverse.

    March 26, 2013 at 9:56 pm |
    • midwest rail

      What is necessary for a legal marriage in the United States ?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:59 pm |
    • GodFreeNow

      Wait.... Marriage is a gift? Clearly spoken by someone who isn't married. Maybe it was gag gift year in heaven.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:05 pm |
    • EJR17

      No. Marriage is a civil contract. Getting the government out of the marriage business would enable the churches to decide who they marry, opening up the door to all sorts of civil rights abuses that people are protected from today, by mere fact that the government does separate CHURCH from STATE.
      There are millions who do not belong to a church, and millions that churches would deem "undesirable" by mere virtue that they were divorced, for instance.
      Want to get married in a church? Fine. But it is a civil, SECULAR right that must never be given over to religion, in that every couple who wishes to wed are not religious.

      The United States is a secular nation. If one is desirous of a Theocracy, there are other nations to choose.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:07 pm |
    • Gave Them Up

      The government has already so corrupted the concept of marriage that even the community of perversity wants in.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      There is some merit in what you say. When Government is no longer involved there will be freedom in how marriage is defined – perversity too, for that matter.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Well, what hasn't the government corrupted? At the end of the day I don't want to be a hypocrite. If I get to choose who to marry, then so should any other person. If the adults are consenting, then it's their business. I don't care about marriage as much as I want to live in a society where people are honest with themselves EVEN when that means they're gay and in lifetime partnership with a person. And I don't see where I have a right to deny them that society.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Yes, except if churches decide, and we get rid of all of the other ways to get married, ie: justice of the peace, courthouse judges – it opens the field for many people being denied the opportunity to be wed.
      I don't think that's right, either-there are millions of people who may want to get married that don't WANT a church involved...

      Not to mention that Las Vegas would take a big hit, LOL.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      The government is in the business of protecting the rights of ALL citizens, not just the ones who get married in a church.
      My goodness, why is that so hard to understand?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:59 pm |
  12. CORN HOMIO

    POOP?

    March 26, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
    • Chap

      Do you eat corn whole? Would you if I said please?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:50 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Would it be possible to salv age this thread? Topic, anyone?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      DOMA is done for, no worries. As for the rest of it – 5 to 4 in favor of making it someone else's problem.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:57 pm |
  13. Gave Them Up

    sam stone
    Well, Robert, neither nature nor the bible are the basis of our laws, so your argument is moot

    Where did you come up with the idea of laws, oh lawless one?

    March 26, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Please name a law in the United States that God in it.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
    • Gave Them Up

      Where did you come up with the idea of laws, lola?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Please answer the question, dear.

      March 26, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
    • sam stone

      we came up with laws by learning to interact with each other, oh clueless sarcastic one

      March 27, 2013 at 5:56 am |
  14. FLAMERS

    shut up and keep your perversion in your house. do you have to act like a woman? flamers.

    March 26, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
    • GodFreeNow

      Hello troll... question: What's wrong with acting like a woman? Do you dislike women so much that you prefer everyone acts like men? Could it be that you prefer men?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:07 pm |
  15. Salero21

    Marriage is not a right.

    Marriage is a privilege, a blessing, a sign of good fortune. Depending of how, where and why it could also be a Duty or an obligation, e.g. shotgun weddings, but is NOT a right.

    March 26, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      So is marriage only for the wealthy?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:35 pm |
    • Salero21

      I feel like it's a gift because no one would ever marry me.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      If you put "standards" on who can marry. You'll have LESS marriages because people may not be able to reach such standards.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      If you're lonely, that's a whole 'nother story.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:39 pm |
    • Salero21

      PR 18:22 He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the LORD.

      PR 31:10 A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies.

      Only a woman can be a wife to a man, and only a man can be a husband to a woman. Anything else and anything less is total Perversion, a Filthy aberration.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
    • FLAMERS

      I am so gay I just want every one to know, and I want attention.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:46 pm |
    • Salero21

      It take some sort of trailer park discards to resort to impersonation. Are you whoever does that a child of the devil? Or just a son of hell?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:46 pm |
    • Salero21

      Ken Margo,

      Were you born stupid or just became stupid?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      salt shaker, I'll bet you don't let the bible literally guide your actions. I'll bet you've eaten shellfish. It would be impossible to live by the bible literally as there are conflicting dictates. So you're just cherry picking to fuel your faux outrage.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:49 pm |
    • Elohim

      No one should get married. Instead, have a private agreement between you and your partner or partners. Whatever floats your boat. But, please, don't let the government interfere in your life even more. The government only cares about your tax money and when you are older it wants you dead so it doesn't have to pay for you.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:49 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @Sal................You're the one that can't get a partner. I got a wife. AZZ hole

      March 26, 2013 at 9:56 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      The SCOTUS said it was a right in 1967. Try again.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:56 pm |
    • sam stonein

      Salero: The Supreme Court said (in 1967) that marriage was a civil right.

      March 27, 2013 at 5:54 am |
    • Saraswati

      Elohim, You live a pretty sheltered life if you think the benefits of marriage are available in a private contract. A marriage grants protections in court, inheritance rights, private and public benefits, immigration rights and more.

      It's also pretty sad that you think it's us against the government but I'll leave that explanation to you civics teacher.

      March 27, 2013 at 6:00 am |
    • End Religion

      "a Filthy aberration"

      Sounds like Jeebus...

      March 27, 2013 at 11:46 am |
  16. Chad

    @TANK!!!! "Unfortunately, according to your own reasoning, god has implanted the 'Sin' feature in my design ( and the design is 100% good). Therefore I have no choice."

    =>The bible says nothing of the sort.

    Rejecting something because you arent familiar with it and have incorrectly as.sumed it says something doesnt make a lot of sense, does it?

    March 26, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      Read the entire conversation. Those are the implications of christian theology which I point out to Robby Brown. NOWHERE did I say that was mentioned in the bible.

      Why do you creationists love quote mining so much? Why?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:13 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      The '100% good' bit is Brown's own statement. I explicitly state that my argument is based on his OWN failed theodicy. If you have a problem with that part, take it up with him AND STOP THE QUOTE MINING!!!!!!

      March 26, 2013 at 9:15 pm |
    • Chad

      "Those are the implications of christian theology which I point out to Robby Brown. NOWHERE did I say that was mentioned in the bible."

      =>I'm confused..
      A. Why are you knowingly ascribing to Christianity doctrine which you know to be false?
      B. If not for those reasons, then why did you reject Christianity?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:16 pm |
    • Science

      Hey Chad you are always confused .
      .

      March 26, 2013 at 9:18 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Chad is a treasure. When we're down to one last person who believes that the Universe is the fine tuned handiwork of the God of Israel, it will be Chad.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "=>I'm confused.."

      Quelle surprise!

      "A. Why are you knowingly ascribing to Christianity doctrine which you know to be false?"

      That was Brown's version of Christian theology. I was making a criticism based on his OWN conditions. As I have said before, take it up with him if you've got a problem.

      B. If not for those reasons, then why did you reject Christianity?

      Because I have encountered no arguments for any revealed religion that are not soaked in fallacy. Yours included, so don't bother presenting any unless you've got a new one.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      I have noticed that our little Chad likes to take things out of context in conversations. Something L4H is also guilty of.
      So I guess it's alright for everyone to do this:

      @Chad "=>I’m confused.."

      => Yes, this seems to happen frequently when one takes a portion of a conversation completely out of context, without considering all of the other responses in a thread that lead up to it.
      Quote mining generally is a dishonest way to debate.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
    • Chad

      OK, so then you dont believe in original sin, and that we all have a choice.

      so then, what aspect of Christianity have you rejected as fallacious?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:39 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Christianity does not achieve the level of fallacy, since at it's core, it is starved of essential facts. Arguments should begin with facts.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
    • FLAMERS

      WHAT IS IN A BUNG WHOLE?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:47 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      I don't think that Chad is ever confused; he always knows what the answer will be before he even knows what the question is. I mean, how confusing is it to answer every single question with "42?" How confusing is it to answer every question with "god did it the way I've already decided he did it?" Not very.

      The virus in Chad's brain has taken control and has become his homunculus. He would use a more positive spiritual metaphor about living with the guidance of the spirit or whatever, but we know what it really means: blindness brought on by willful ignorance.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:52 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "OK, so then you dont believe in original sin, and that we all have a choice."

      Now you're pulling statements out of nowhere! Where did I say anything about my stance on either of those issues? How is that a logical implication of or assumption supporting my criticism? STOP THE DECEIT, CHAD!

      March 26, 2013 at 9:56 pm |
    • Why?

      Why are there ten different responses for every Christian post? It doesn't look like a debate, sounds more like an un believer free for all , screaming match.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:58 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "Christianity does not achieve the level of fallacy, since at it's core, it is starved of essential facts."

      The fallacies I describe are purely formal (should have clarified that). You don't even need to start hunting for facts, because the logic fails so spectacularly. And, to make things even worse, some christians embrace this fallacy wholeheartedly by stating the old "his ways are mysterious" line.

      To commit illogic is one thing. We are all prone to it. But to claim it as a doctrine? LOL.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:06 pm |
    • Chad

      @TANK!!!! "Where did I say anything about my stance on either of those issues? How is that a logical implication of or assumption supporting my criticism? STOP THE DECEIT, CHAD!"

      =>You're confusing me again, what then is your stance on sin and free will, how do you see the bible supporting it?
      I'm having a hard time understanding what you are so vociferously criticizing Robert for...

      March 26, 2013 at 10:06 pm |
    • Chad

      @Tank "You don't even need to start hunting for facts, because the logic fails so spectacularly."

      =>A. Interesting that you dont feel you need facts to accuse something of being fallacious.. I'm pretty sure that is basically step number 1 in all discussions of that type..
      B. how does it fail? Specifically..

      March 26, 2013 at 10:08 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Chad, How familiar are you with all the other religions that you've obviously rejected? Why did you reject them?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      "Interesting that you dont feel you need facts to accuse something of being fallacious.. I'm pretty sure that is basically step number 1 in all discussions of that type.."

      Your surety does not make it true.
      http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/2252478

      Read some good books on logic, and come back to me.

      "B. how does it fail? Specifically"
      If you don't even KNOW what a formal fallacy is, how can you discuss it? Not that I wish to discuss them with you. The asinine comments you've posted here over the past few months have precluded any such inclinations. Believe that.

      "You're confusing me again."
      Unsurprising.

      "I'm having a hard time understanding what you are so vociferously criticizing Robert for"

      The discussion is ON THE VERY NEXT PAGE! Laziness in critical thought, I can tolerate. But laziness that prevents you from clicking on the number '19' at the bottom of the page? Why, Chad? Why?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:25 pm |
    • Chad

      @Tank "You don't even need to start hunting for facts, because the logic fails so spectacularly."

      => This book starts out with the statement that just because an argument is of a fallacious form, doesnt make it false.
      t.itle looked good.. so cut and paste away.. You didnt read it did you 🙂

      From http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2307/2252478

      "The common feature of all these erroneous discussions, however lies in the false principle:
      (1) If an argument is an instance of an invalid form, it is invalid.

      ...

      (1) is false.

      In other words, the site you used to bolster your statement that one doesnt need facts, the fact that the argument structure is (you as.sert) fallacious is in and of itself enough, directly refutes your argument...

      March 26, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • Science

      It would be NICE......... but
      Maybe they should not have created the wedge !!!
      The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Insti-tute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Insti-tute manifesto known as the Wedge Docu-ment,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to defeat materialism, naturalism, evolution, and "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic
      convictions.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

      March 27, 2013 at 5:48 am |
  17. Who is on the side of divorce lawyers?

    More marriages=more divorces=more money for divorce lawyers

    March 26, 2013 at 8:48 pm |
    • Marriage on trial

      It is a sad day when marriage is on trial, whether by definition, or by differences.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
    • Marriage on trial

      According to pew research survey, 40% of the population think marriage as an inti tuition is becoming obsolete. So, what is all this hullabaloo about?

      March 26, 2013 at 9:20 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Allowing those who wish to marry actually marry. No matter what gender the one they wish to marry is.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:28 pm |
    • salt lake

      As a polygamist, I think marriage is open for definition by any one and everyone including immigrants

      March 26, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      @salt lake

      I'd say that the bible supports polygamy and having a few hundred wh0res in your palace and owning slaves a bit more than it supports gay marriage. But gay marriage is an obvious right in my view, too.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
    • Marriage as ordained by God is

      One Man, one woman. Deal with it, salt lake

      March 26, 2013 at 9:46 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      One man, one woman, my a55. God allows all sorts of marriages in the bible. How many concubines did Solomon have? How many wives that were sisters and close family members? Do you know the marriage relationships of many bible "heroes?" One man, one woman, please.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:02 pm |
    • Solo moon

      Solomon had concubines! News to us! Surprised! You did not read the whole story, did you? What has that got to do with the definition of marriage as ordained by God, anyways?

      March 26, 2013 at 10:11 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      Solo, think better or read more thoroughly. You'll figure it out.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:13 pm |
    • Solo moon

      Ignorance will not get you very far

      March 26, 2013 at 10:15 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      That's it! You've made the first step! Keep on going!! Think it through!

      March 26, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
    • What is worthwhile under the sun?

      Ecclesiastes

      March 26, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      In the secular Unites States, gay marriage is already happening. God doesn't enter into secular civil law, so basically, God can ordain marriage to be between a man and his pet Golden Retriever, and it STILL wouldn't apply to our laws.

      March 26, 2013 at 10:27 pm |
    • Read the article and come back

      with a valid point if you have any

      March 26, 2013 at 10:33 pm |
  18. Anon

    Try to see h0m0$exuality as natures way of managing population levels between different species.

    March 26, 2013 at 8:44 pm |
  19. Ken Margo

    How come the scientific name for people is HO'MO sapiens? One of those things that make you go mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    March 26, 2013 at 8:42 pm |
  20. Robert

    The human reproductive organs make it quite clear that males were designed for females, and females for males. Biology is in line with the Biblical text.

    The Bible certainly leaves no room for same gender "marriage."

    March 26, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
    • Anon

      Great let's eradicate snails then since they're all hermaphrodites. /s

      March 26, 2013 at 8:19 pm |
    • SeilnoigileR

      The bible also says you need to get your dead brother's wife pregnant if she had no kids. It also says that Adam & Eve are our progenitors when we know that genetics wouldn't permit that. Or if you wait until after the 'flood', that Noahs children got him drunk and pregnant by their own father to continue the species. Also impossible, but go ahead and believe whatever lies make you happy.

      March 26, 2013 at 8:25 pm |
    • EJR17

      It does not matter what the Bible said. Gay people are not asking to be married in a church; only to be married. Period.

      The procreation argument cannot be taken seriously. States do not inquire whether straight couples intend to bear children, or have the capacity to have children, before they are allowed to marry. We permit marriage by the elderly, by prison inmates, and by persons who have no intention of having children.
      There simply is no reason not to allow gay couples the equal rights they deserve under the 14th. No reason not to allow them to be legally wed.

      March 26, 2013 at 8:29 pm |
    • EJR17

      Further, marriage is not a prerequisite for procreation, evidenced by the large number of out-of-wedlock children being born today.
      Many of those, for instance, being cared for in foster care and orphanages, waiting to be adopted permanently.
      Our laws are secular ones in these United States. There is a reason for that.

      March 26, 2013 at 8:34 pm |
    • Robert

      Gays make up a tiny fraction of the population. Of that tiny fraction a tiny fraction wants to redefine marriage. Society should not bow to that tiny fraction.

      March 26, 2013 at 8:35 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      @rob.........Are you married? If you are PLEASE TELL US HOW GAY MARRIAGE WOULD AFFECT YOU. Considering we have gay marriage in several states, if it hasn't affected you by now. It never will.

      March 26, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • Mr. Reality

      Robert...Did you say the bible was in line with biology..wow....I have no further comment.

      March 26, 2013 at 8:44 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      The Buybull on Mendelian Genetics:

      Show a sheep a piece of painted bark, and it will bear spotted young.

      Genesis 30:25-43

      March 26, 2013 at 8:53 pm |
    • sam stone

      Well, Robert, neither nature nor the bible are the basis of our laws, so your argument is moot

      March 26, 2013 at 8:54 pm |
    • sam stone

      It is about equal rights, Robert. Many straight people (myself included) support marriage equality. Shove your pious bigotry up your rectum

      March 26, 2013 at 8:57 pm |
    • EJR17

      Being granted equal rights FOR ALL is something to strive for.
      Please illustrate for me how allowing gay marriage infinges on your rights to a) practice your faith, and b) liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness?
      After all, it isn't YOUR rights being quashed, are they?
      And make no mistake. Marriage IS a right. It should be available to ALL citizens, regardless of the gender they choose to marry.

      March 26, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      So, it is all right to deny about 6% of our society equal rights because it's only 6% of our society?
      Wrong. Wrong. And just so you understand, Robert, WRONG.
      Cling to your faith. Fine. Let those who understand what equal civil liberties are progress while you pray for those you despise.
      You have indeed outed yourself as a bigot. Well done.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:08 pm |
    • Lola Bunch

      Besides, Robert, this is why we have the civil courts, to decide these things, so you don't have to ponder the fate of hundreds of thousands of people affected by "the gay."
      Thankfully.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:12 pm |
    • Salero21

      Evidently anon does not understand the meaning of the word HUMAN.

      We HUMANS were Created Male and Female. We HUMANS are the crown of Creation. We HUMANS, MANKIND are the ONLY ones Created in God's image. ALL other Creatures though Created BEFORE man, in the Hierarchies of Creation are below mankind or inferior to mankind. Mankind includes the WOMAN Created from Man but Man is born of the Woman.

      Some inferior and simple organisms can reproduce a-se-xua-lly. That's not the case for HUMANS.

      See that's why these Humanoid atheist are so stupid.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:27 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I don't mean to offend you, Robert, but the penis, optimal in shape by virtue of many millions of years of evolution, is adaptable and can service most of your orifices.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:30 pm |
    • Salero21

      It's a good thing the laws of this land don't care what bible says then

      March 26, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      salt shaker, if creatures before man are inferior to man, it follows that man is inferior to woman as woman was created later (in your creation myths)

      March 26, 2013 at 9:40 pm |
    • Anon

      We're part of the ape family (5th ape). We weren't created but the result of billions of years of evolution through natural selection.

      March 26, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.