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Christ was persecuted, but what about Christians?
Roman persecution of Christians was depicted in paintings such as "The Christian Martyrs' Last Prayer" by Jean-Leon Gerome.
March 30th, 2013
10:00 PM ET

Christ was persecuted, but what about Christians?

CNN examines the tumultuous early years of Christianity in a special narrated by Liam Neeson. Watch “After Jesus: The First Christians,” Sunday at 8 p.m. ET.

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN) She walked into the Roman arena where the wild beasts awaited her. She trembled not from fear but from joy.

Her name was Vibia Perpetua. She was just 22, a young mother singing hymns as the crowd jeered and a lion, leopard and wild cow encircled her.

One of the beasts attacked, hurling her to the ground. She covered an exposed thigh with her bloody robe to preserve her modesty and groped in the dust for her hair pin so she could fix her disheveled hair.

And when a Roman executioner approached Perpetua with a sword, her last words before collapsing were aimed at her Christian companions: “Stand fast in the faith, and love you all one another and do not let our sufferings be a stumbling block to you.”

Millions of Christians worldwide will celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on this Easter Sunday. But the story of how the church rose to prominence after Jesus’ death is being turned upside down.

According to a belief passed down through the centuries, the church grew because of Roman persecution. The blood of Christian martyrs such as Perpetua became “the seed of the church,” said third-century church leader Tertullian. It’s the Hollywood version of Christianity reflected in epic biblical films such as “Ben-Hur” and “The Robe.” Vicious Romans relentlessly targeted early Christians, so the story goes, but the faith of people like Perpetua proved so inspiring that Christianity became the official religion of Rome, and eventually the largest religion in the world.

But that script is getting a rewrite. The first Christians were never systematically persecuted by the Romans, and most martyrdom stories with the exception of a handful such as Perpetua's were exaggerated and invented, several scholars and historians say. It wasn’t just how the early Christians died that inspired so many people in the ancient world; it was how they lived.

“You had much better odds of winning the lottery than you would have becoming a martyr,” says Joyce E. Salisbury, author of “The Blood of Martyrs: Unintended Consequences of Ancient Violence.”

“The odds were pretty slim. More people read about martyrs than ever saw one.”

Do Christians have a martyr complex today?

The debate over exactly how many Christians were persecuted and martyred may seem irrelevant centuries later. A scholarly consensus has indeed emerged that Roman persecution of Christians was sporadic, and that at least some Christian martyrdom stories are theological tall tales.

But a new book by Candida Moss, a New Testament professor at the University of Notre Dame, is bringing that message to the masses.

Moss says ancient stories of church persecution have created a contemporary cult of bogus Christian martyrs. She says too many American Christians are acting like they’re members of a persecuted minority, being thrown to the lions by people who simply disagree with them.

Professor Candida Moss, author of "The Myth of Persecution," says most stories of Christian martyrs were fabricated.

She cited former Republican presidential candidates Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum. Romney claimed last year that President Barack Obama was waging a “war against religion,” and Santorum said the gay community “had gone out on a jihad” against him. Other Christians invoke images of persecution when someone disagrees with them on controversial issues such as abortion or birth control, says Moss, whose "The Myth of Persecution" was recently released.

The problem with invoking persecution is it implies your opponents are evil and no common ground can be found with evil,  Moss says.

“When someone is persecuting you" she says, "there is no room for dialogue."

Others say Moss’ claim is dangerous.

People such as Perpetua did die because of their beliefs. The first Christians were tortured, reviled and held in contempt by Romans and their example helped the church grow, they say.

The Rev. Robert Morgan, author of  "On This Day in Christian History: 365 Amazing and Inspiring Stories about Saints, Martyrs and Heroes, " says it’s true that some of the accounts of martyrdom were “undoubtedly embellished” and that many of the persecution stories were “handed down in an atmosphere of confusion and pressure.”

Still, being a Christian in the first century was a risky move persecution was significant. Jesus and most of his apostles were executed, he says.

“To deny the history of the movement is a way of attacking the movement,” Morgan says.

Some opposition to contemporary Christians is indeed evil, Morgan says. Christians are being killed today in places such as Nigeria and North Africa.

“Christians do not have a victim’s mentality,” Morgan says. “They take their stands, they know what they believe and they do good in this world. They are the ones who have established orphanages, hospitals and charitable institutions. For some reason, there’s this animosity against them.”

Hatred of Christians is woven into much of the New Testament. Jesus constantly warned his followers to expect persecution. The Apostle Paul wrote many of his epistles from jail. And the death of the first Christian martyr, Stephen, is dramatically recorded in the New Testament book the Acts of  the Apostles.

The Easter message itself is a story of martyrdom Jesus, unjustly executed by the Romans. The idea that Christians are at war with demonic forces in the world is reflected throughout the New Testament, says Bryan Litfin, a theology professor at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago.

“If Jesus was just a soft moral teacher who taught us to love one another and petted little babies, the Romans wouldn’t have crucified him,”  Litfin says. “Jesus is a polarizing figure, then and today. The early Christians weren’t foisting a narrative out of the blue about being martyrs. ”

'Like the action heroes of the ancient world'

If the first Christians pictured themselves as waging war against the world, the martyrs were their version of the Navy SEALs. They were the elite Christians who inspired and united others of their faith.

There was a purpose behind spreading stories of persecution: Nothing brings a new group closer together than a common enemy, Moss says.

“The idea that you are persecuted forges a concrete identity,” Moss says. “It really solidifies your sense of group identity.”

The stories of Christian persecution were so popular that they spawned a market during the first centuries after the crucifixion. The places where martyrs were born and died became early tourist stops. Towns competed with one another to draw rich pilgrims seeking martyr memorabilia, Moss says.

“People would go and buy the equivalent of a T-shirt,” Moss says. “You’d have all these little combs with saints on them that people would buy, and lamps with saints on them. People would also buy fruit from trees that grew in the vicinity of martyrs’ graves. Of course, the prices were completely jacked up.”

Church leaders began to embellish and invent stories of martyrdom to inspire the faithful but also to settle theological feuds, Moss says. If, say, a bishop wanted to denounce a rivals’ theology, he spun a story in which a martyr denounced the same doctrine with his last breath, Moss says.

“Martyrs were like the action heroes of the ancient world,” Moss says. “It was like getting your favorite athlete endorsing your favorite brand of soda.”

But how often did Romans force Christians to endure torture or die for their faith? Christianity took roughly 300 years to conquer Rome. The emperor Constantine converted to Christianity in 312 and gave Christians religious freedom.  Christianity became the official religion of Rome by the end of the fourth century,  scholars say.

For the first 300 years of the church, Christians were often ridiculed and viewed with contempt. But Roman leaders spent about "less than 10 years" out of the first 300 actually persecuting Christians, Moss says. There are only six reliable cases of Christian martyrdom before A.D. 250 out of “hundreds of stories,” including Perpetua’s, she says.

Many scholars have greeted Moss’ contention that Roman persecution of Christians was exaggerated with a shrug. They say it was common knowledge in the academic world.

“There weren’t that many Christians who were persecuted,” says Gail O’Day, dean of the Wake Forest University School of Divinity in North Carolina. “When you actually read the Roman historical records, the Christians just weren’t that important to them. Most Christians just got along with empire.”

When Roman persecution did occur, though, it was vicious. The Emperor Nero covered fully conscious Christians with wax and used them as human torches. Other Christians were skinned alive and covered with salt, while others were slowly roasted above a pit until they died.

Perpetua’s passion

One of the most famous martyrs was Perpetua.

She lived in Carthage in North Africa (modern-day Tunisia) and was arrested in March 203 with four others as they prepared for baptism. The Roman Emperor Septimius Severus had decreed that any new conversion to Christianity would result in death.

History remembers Perpetua because she kept a diary during her imprisonment. It’s called "The Passion of Perpetua and Felicity" (Felicity was a slave girl arrested with Perpetua). It’s the oldest-surviving document from a Christian woman. The emotion in the diary is almost unbearable. Perpetua describes the pain of leaving her infant son, who she was still nursing. She describes a prison visit from her weeping father, who kissed her hands while trying to get her to renounce her faith.

Perpetua's father visited her in prison, begging her to think of him and renounce her faith.

A narrator picks up the story in the diary after Perpetua was sent to her death. He says in the diary that Perpetua’s faith was so inspiring it caused the prison’s warden, a man called Pudens, to convert. The narrator also describes Perpetua's death.

While she was imprisoned, Perpetua says God gave her visions to reassure her. After one, she wrote:

“I understood that I should fight, not with beasts but against the devil. But I knew that mine was the victory.”

You can’t discount the power of such stories, even if persecution “wasn’t extremely common,” says Litfin, the Moody Bible Institute professor.

Persecution was central to the rise of the early church, he says.

“How many people in your church would have to be pulled out and executed and tormented for it not to have a tremendous effect for many years on your memory and self-perception,” Litfin says. “The early Christians are not foisting a narrative out of the blue about being matyrs.”

The early Christians' secret weapon

Other scholars say it wasn't simply persecution that helped the church grow. Instead, they say, Christians had a secret weapon.

The martyrs may have gotten all the press, but it was ordinary Christians who got it done by the way they treated friends and strangers.

Life in ancient Rome was brutal and nasty, says Rodney Stark, author of "The Triumph of Christianity." Stark’s well-regarded book gives one of the most detailed descriptions of the early church and ancient Rome.

Forget those antiseptic portraits of Roman cities you see in biblical moves such as “The Robe.” Roman cities were overcrowded, raw sewage ran in the streets, people locked their doors at night for fear of being robbed and plagues were rampant. Soap had not yet been invented, Stark says.

“The stink of the cities in the summertime must have been astounding,” Stark says. “You would have smelled a city miles before you got to it.”

Christians stood out because they created a “miniature welfare state" to help the less fortunate, Stark says. They took in infant girls routinely left for dead by their parents. They risked their lives to tend the sick when plagues hit and others fled in terror. They gave positions of leadership to women when many women had no rights, and girls as young as 12 were often married off to middle-aged men, he says.

Ordinary Romans might have thought Christians were odd but liked having them for neighbors, Stark says.

“If people had really been against them, I don’t think they would have grown like they did,” Stark says.

Christianity became so popular that when Rome did unleash one of its sporadic waves of persecutions, the empire couldn’t stop the church’s momentum, Stark says.

“If you knocked off a bishop, there were 20 guys waiting to be bishop,” Stark says

Christian belonging, not blood, is what drew many people, another scholar says.

The Easter story of a risen savior wasn’t distinctive in Rome’s competitive religious marketplace. Dying for one’s beliefs wasn’t considered heroic; it was expected in the Roman world, says Selina O' Grady, author of "And Man Created God: A History of the World at the Time of Jesus."

The early church, though, was radically inclusive. First-century Rome was undergoing globalization. The peace of Rome had made travel easier. People left homes and tribal ties for Rome. The empire was filled with rootless and excluded people: immigrants, traders, slaves.

The Christian message offered guidelines for living in this strange new world, she says.

“Its universal message, its proclamation of equality, unconditional love, offered everyone in the Roman Empire a new family, a new community, and a way to live,” O’Grady says.

Roman rulers eventually found reasons to support the church, she says.

The Christian message of obeying earthly masters “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" reduced the potential for social unrest, O’Grady says.

“Christianity told the poor and lowly that their status was noble and that there would be recompense in the afterlife,” O’Grady says. “It was a wonderful recipe for creating good, obedient Roman subjects.”

A turning point for the early church was the conversion of Constantine. Scholars still debate Constantine’s motive. By that time the empire was rife with division, and Christians had become a major political bloc with members in the highest reaches of Roman society, says Stark, the sociologist.

“Constantine was interested so much in church affairs for the rest of his life, but I don’t think there’s a reason to not think he was a sincere Christian,” Stark says. “But he was also an egomaniac and an emperor.”

The growth of Christianity was too complex to be attributed to any one factor whether it be Constantine, persecution or Christianity's message of compassion and inclusion, Stark says.

“I don’t think there was a primary reason,” he says. “It was a collection of things. It was all part of a package.”

Wrapped in that package, though, were the persecution stories of people such as Perpetua.

Today, churches have been named after Perpetua; films and graphic novels have been made about her life. She is considered a saint.

Her words still inspire. People still read her diary. There’s probably a Christian somewhere in the world now facing danger who is taking courage from Perpetua’s ordeal.

One passage in Perpetua’s diary is particularly luminous.

Perpetua stopped keeping her diary just before she was sent into the arena. No one knows for sure what she felt when she faced her moment of death, but she did write what she expected to see afterward.

She wrote that God gave her a reassuring vision while in prison. In the vision, she saw a great bronze ladder ascending to heaven. At the foot of the ladder was a great serpent surrounded by swords and knives.

Perpetua said she ignored the serpent and climbed the ladder. When she arrived at the top, she saw a great garden and a white-haired man in shepherd’s clothing milking a sheep. He was flanked by thousands of others Christians dressed in white.

“And he raised his head and beheld me and said to me: Welcome child.”

The man gave Perpetua curds from the milk of the sheep, and she said it tasted sweet.

She then wrote:

“And I took it with joined hands and ate it up: and all that stood around said, Amen.”

Centuries later, millions of people who look to Perpetua are still saying amen.

- CNN Writer

Filed under: Christianity • Easter • Faith • History • Jesus

soundoff (6,965 Responses)
  1. ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

    Who left the door open of hindu donkeys, ignorant secular s barn, they do not belong on places for human, catch hindu donkeys, filthy secular s, filthy kenjers, and keep them with, their own hindu donkey, ignorant Atheist kind to have peace, Islam among humanity.

    April 1, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
  2. .

    dot
    Dot
    Dottie
    Dorothy
    dot
    don't
    done
    gone

    April 1, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
  3. The real tom

    I'm soo gay!

    April 1, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
    • sam

      Complete bullshit, you mean.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
    • ..

      Careful there, handle thief. You're persectuing The Real Tom.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:51 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      No need to say it, your hindu filthy busted hind is a witness to it, for every hindu donkey, filthy secular to notice it.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
    • sam

      Shut your hind, Mohammad!

      April 1, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
  4. HeavenSent

    Hawiiaguest, use your brain on your own. If that page is spinning, use the first half of the site to bring you into the Q & A section.

    April 1, 2013 at 5:35 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Then take note that the site's operator, Nick Goggin, has not updated it, nor has he been heard from (by anyone, anywhere, apparently) in over 3 years.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      The site is complete, no matter how many Bullies go after him.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • Doobs

      Hawiiaguest, use your brain on your own.

      Great advice coming from someone who can't figure out how to use the reply button.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Doobs, I do know how to use the reply button. I have nothing to do with the webmaster playing simple games with my posts. Daahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, too much truth for you in one day. Hey, speaking of days Happy Atheist day.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:32 pm |
    • Hear This

      @HeavenSent,

      Before you even *think* of palming off that lame April Fool's Day schtick on us...

      Looking back only as far as the 1700s:

      – Easter Sunday has fallen on April 1st in the following years: 1714, 1725, 1736, 1804, 1866, 1877, 1888, 1923, 1934, 1945 and 1956. Easter Sunday is due to fall on this date again in the year 2018.

      – Palm Sunday has been on April 1 in 1793, 1708, 1787, 1792, 1798, 1849, 1855, 1860, 1917, 1928, 2007, 2012.

      – Good Friday has previously fallen on April 1 in the years 1763, 1768, 1774, 1825, 1831, 1836, 1904, 1983, 1988 and 1994 and will again in 2067.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
  5. Dyslexic doG

    Without Honey BooBoo or the Kardashians to watch 2,000 years ago, people had to make stuff up to entertain themselves. The Bible is just a collection of the best of those stories. It's like America's Funniest Home Videos from the bronze age. :-)

    April 1, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Is that the best that you can come up with? Thank you God for not having me born in this generation.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Dd,

      "It's like America's Funniest Home Videos from the bronze age."

      And it's interesting that so many of the current entertainment specialists descend from those ancient Hebrews... producers, directors, screenwriters, sci-fi/fantasy authors, etc.

      (* not meant in the least bit as an ethnic slur - just a neutral fact)

      April 1, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
  6. The Truth and The Light

    It saddanes me that only on day after the celabration of tthe rising of the LORD JESUS on the third day that so manny come out to persecute us when the TRUTH is before them in The HOLY BIBLE! Read the WORD of GOD and you WILL see!

    HE IS RISEN!!!!!

    AMEN!

    April 1, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
    • meifumado

      Fool!

      You are the one who will see!
      For I am a high priest of the dread lord Yog-Sothoth, Hold close those you hold dear and DESPAIR! for his time comes! You will soon know the exquisite sufferings of his malevolence!

      April 1, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      You are being criticized, informed, maybe occasionally insulted, but you are not being persecuted. To say that you are degrades the experiences of people who have actually undergone persecution.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • .

      Hey there Tommy,

      You must not know what persecution is. Would you like a definition straight from the dictionary? Your opinions are always incorrect, especially when making an attempt at relaying so-called "factual" information.

      per·se·cute/ˈpɜrsɪˌkyut/ Show Spelled [pur-si-kyoot] Show IPA
      verb (used with object), per·se·cut·ed, per·se·cut·ing.
      1. to pursue with harassing or oppressive treatment, especially because of religion, race, or beliefs; harass persistently.
      2. to annoy or trouble persistently.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
    • ..

      Hey, there dot.

      Using that definition, thousands of gay people are persecuted every day. What will the good Christians do to stop that?
      Thousands of atheists are persecuted every day. What will the good Christians do about that?
      Thousands of minorities are being persecuted ever day. What will the good Christians do about that?
      Oh, yeah. Complain *they're* being the ones persecuted, instead of the ones *doing* the persecuting. Wah.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Doobs

      It "saddanes" me that you never learned to spell.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
  7. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Regarding Christians and the God of Israel-

    [Chad's points ] are pretty basic things from the teachings of mainstream Christians, I would say most Jews who have not converted to Christianity disagree with most of what [Chad has] said.

    Chad: "your wildly inaccurate view is really unfortunate in one sense, but also an opportunity in another sense ... The only difference between Judaism and Christianity is that Christians believe the Messiah has come, Jews are still awaiting His coming."

    I have noticed, as an outside observer, that there are some fundamental differences between Judaism and Christianity, such that Christians really shouldn't identify their God as the same God of Israel that is worshiped by religious Jews. In particular, Christianity begins with a human sacrifice, which is abhorrent. Jews have not sacrificed human beings. Additionally, I don't think the concept of a triune God is accepted by many Jews. Perhaps other observers can see other important differences.

    April 1, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tom, first the Jews need to read Jesus' truth.

      Jesus said,

      But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.

      Matthew 19:30

      Amen.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
  8. HeavenSent

    Central Scruitinizer, your batting average is 0 for infinity.

    April 1, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
  9. HeavenSent

    I took a little too much oxy inside my trailer this morning. Now my butt hurts and my dog is happy. What could have happened? Jesus truth

    Amen

    April 1, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Phony heavensent, you write about drugs too much. Mmmh, you must be writing about what you know.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
    • ..

      HS, you write about carnal desires all the time. Mhmm, you must be writing about what you know.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Correction Spot. Carnal desires is what keeps you sinning.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
  10. ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

    EPIC HISTORY OF BIRTH OF HINDUS IGNORANT S AND THEIR HINDU SECULAR ISM.
    In hindu dark ages, a woman was laying in bed, while her husband was away, she was having her lust pleasing dreams in hindu secular ism, filthy self center ism of enjoying company of her husband in bed in a hindu darkened cave, a hindu filthy languor, secular daddy of hindu hanuman, stupid monkey, secular, every hindu believes to be their god saw her moaning and took advantage of her, her husband came back and had relationship , but she had already been pregnant by hindu crook languor, filthy secular. She never told her husband of the indecent, time of child birth her husband took her to a medicine man for deliver, and waited for hours, while he heard wild noises from inside delivery cave. Finally medicine man came out of cave sweating and all bruised, her husband rushed to him, and asked about well being of his wife and child, boy or a girl, medicine man could not answer, while he was trying to figure out way to explain, finally he put himself together and started to explain mystery of his child birth. AS HE STATED , RIGHT AFTER BIRTH, CHILD JUMPED AND CLUNG TO CEILING OF THE CAVE, HIM AND HIS ASSISTANT WERE TRYING HARD TO CATCH CHILD FOR S GENDER IDENTIFICATION, BUT TO NO VIALS, AFTER HOURS THEY GAVE UP.
    Child of hindu crook Languor, secular from a woman was called Bujrungbhali, meaning ruler of his own limit, a hindu secular, stupid self centered, he matted with his own half kind, hindu monkeys and donkeys, stupid secular s, self centered animals and multiplied enormously,
    Living by hindu secular ism, self center ism, kenjer ism, today his progeny claims their linage from Monkeys AND DONKEYS, stupid secular s As their maternal gods. So much so, producers of Gorge of the Jungle movie borrowed concept from inception of hindus, ignorant and made a lot of money.
    Every letter of a word has meanings of its own, seeds to grow crop of words for humanity to communicate. From seeds of letters, blocks are created and than blocks are combined to create words to communicate intentions of a person. Word ATHEIST MEANS, A SELF CENTERED, DENIER OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE, OR A PERSON CLAIMING HIMSELF TO BE TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD, A HINDU SHAMAN, A CROOK SPEAKING BY HIS SOUL, DESIRE, NOT OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE OF A MATTER. Atheism is not of human, but in line with mind set of a animals. Following words are best example to identify Atheism.
    DOG
    Letter D, means, THE. Vowel O, represents, QUANTIFIED AND Letter G is result of one s intention from his mind and heart. Sounded Ga. meaning a secular, self centered by intention in opposition to truth absolute by intention. or an atheist,
    MONKEY
    Letter M means essence or choice of an intention, Vowel O represents Quantified. Letter N means enshrined or established. Letter K identifies function of a noun. Vowel E represents unity of an adjective and a noun in essence. Letter Y means Ye, from heart and mind, base of word Yes. Meaning by self choice, with dis regard to truth absolute, a Secular, self centered or an atheist,
    DONKEY
    Letter D, means THE, Vowel O means QUANTIFIED, Letter N means established or enshrined. Letter K identifies function of a noun. Vowel E represents unity of an adjective and a noun in essence. Letter Y means Ye, from heart and mind, base of word Yes. Meaning by self choice, with dis regard to truth absolute, a Secular, self centered or an atheist,
    As a matter of fact, word ANIMAL means nothing else, but a atheist, self centered or denier of truth absolute.
    Atheism, self center ism is way of animals and hindrance negativity to truth absolute GOD, foundation of consti tution of USA and universe and source for existence of everything in existence, otherwise known as constant.
    Atheism is way of hindus, deniers of truth absolute, not of human, but animals observed by pot head hindu Swamis, ignorant goons, secular, self centered by their hindu soul, filthy desire and foundation of hinduism racism of hindu dark ages.

    By Stephen Prothero, Special to CNN
    (CNN) – In religious studies courses, professors often try to get their students to see the world through Hindu eyes or to walk a few miles in the shoes of a Confucian. Anthropologists refer to this as cultivating an emic (or insider) perspective. The less fancy name for it is empathy.

    EPIC HISTORY OF BIRTH OF HINDUS IGNORANT S AND THEIR HINDU SECULAR ISM.
    In hindu dark ages, a woman was laying in bed, while her husband was away, she was having her lust pleasing dreams in hindu secular ism, filthy self center ism of enjoying company of her husband in bed in a hindu darkened cave, a hindu filthy languor, secular daddy of hindu hanuman, stupid monkey, secular, every hindu believes to be their god saw her moaning and took advantage of her, her husband came back and had relationship , but she had already been pregnant by hindu crook languor, filthy secular. She never told her husband of the indecent, time of child birth her husband took her to a medicine man for deliver, and waited for hours, while he heard wild noises from inside delivery cave. Finally medicine man came out of cave sweating and all bruised, her husband rushed to him, and asked about wellbeing of his wife and child, boy or a girl, medicine man could not answer, while he was trying to figure out way to explain, finally he put himself together and started to explain mystery of his child birth. AS HE STATED , RIGHT AFTER BIRTH, CHILD JUMPED AND CLUNG TO CEILING OF THE CAVE, HIM AND HIS ASSISTANT WERE TRYING HARD TO CATCH CHILD FOR S GENDER IDENTIFICATION, BUT TO NO VIALS, AFTER HOURS THEY GAVE UP.
    Child of hindu crook Languor, secular from a woman was called Bujrungbhali, meaning ruler of his own limit, a hindu secular, stupid self centered, he matted with his own half kind, hindu monkeys and donkeys, stupid secular s, self centered animals and multiplied enormously,
    Living by hindu secular ism, self center ism, kenjer ism, today his progeny claims their linage from Monkeys AND DONKEYS, stupid secular s As their maternal gods. So much so, producers of Gorge of the Jungle movie borrowed concept from inception of hindus, ignorant and made a lot of money.
    Every letter of a word has meanings of its own, seeds to grow crop of words for humanity to communicate. From seeds of letters, blocks are created and than blocks are combined to create words to communicate intentions of a person. Word ATHEIST MEANS, A SELF CENTERED, DENIER OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE, OR A PERSON CLAIMING HIMSELF TO BE TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD, A HINDU SHAMAN, A CROOK SPEAKING BY HIS SOUL, DESIRE, NOT OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE OF A MATTER. Atheism is not of human, but in line with mind set of a animals. Following words are best example to identify Atheism.
    DOG
    Letter D, means, THE. Vowel O, represents, QUANTIFIED AND Letter G is result of one s intention from his mind and heart. Sounded Ga. meaning a secular, self centered by intention in opposition to truth absolute by intention. or an atheist,
    MONKEY
    Letter M means essence or choice of an intention, Vowel O represents Quantified. Letter N means enshrined or established. Letter K identifies function of a noun. Vowel E represents unity of an adjective and a noun in essence. Letter Y means Ye, from heart and mind, base of word Yes. Meaning by self choice, with dis regard to truth absolute, a Secular, self centered or an atheist,
    DONKEY
    Letter D, means THE, Vowel O means QUANTIFIED, Letter N means established or enshrined. Letter K identifies function of a noun. Vowel E represents unity of an adjective and a noun in essence. Letter Y means Ye, from heart and mind, base of word Yes. Meaning by self choice, with dis regard to truth absolute, a Secular, self centered or an atheist,
    As a matter of fact, word ANIMAL means nothing else, but a atheist, self centered or denier of truth absolute.
    Atheism, self center ism is way of animals and hindrance negativity to truth absolute GOD, foundation of consti tution of USA and universe and source for existence of everything in existence, otherwise known as constant.
    Atheism is way of hindus, deniers of truth absolute, not of human, but animals observed by pot head hindu Swamis, ignorant goons, secular, self centered by their hindu soul, filthy desire and foundation of hinduism racism of hindu dark ages.

    By Stephen Prothero, Special to CNN
    (CNN) – In religious studies courses, professors often try to get their students to see the world through Hindu eyes or to walk a few miles in the shoes of a Confucian. Anthropologists refer to this as cultivating an emic (or insider) perspective. The less fancy name for it is empathy.
    Visit limitisthetruth.com to learn hinduism racism of hindu Atheist, criminal self centered.

    April 1, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Islam is a trick of the devil. You still have a chance to see His truth and turn from the dark path.

      Amen.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • meifumado

      Islams prophet was no more then a illiterate pedophile warlord who invented his own religion in order to control all the people he conquered.

      Also, Hindu's are better then Muslims.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • STFU

      GO AWAY MOHAMMED, SON OF A PIG

      April 1, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      hinduism absurdity of hindu secular s, filthy self entered, not of human, but of hindu animals, ignorant self centered, hindu kenjer, secular by faith.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
    • Agnes of Dog

      "Letter D, means, THE. Vowel O, represents, QUANTIFIED AND Letter G"

      Oh – you have to be that guy that was able to take the letter "i" out of "Sam", somehow (@1:20):

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pANuw4IXrEs&w=640&h=390]

      April 1, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Still a PITA phony heavensent. Must be your forte.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
  11. Reality

    Christian Economics and Greed 101:

    The Baptizer drew crowds and charged for the "dunking". The historical Jesus saw a good thing and continued dunking and preaching the good word but added "healing" as an added charge to include free room and board. Sure was better than being a poor peasant but he got a bit too zealous and they nailed him to a tree. But still no greed there.

    Paul picked up the money scent on the road to Damascus. He added some letters and a prophecy of the imminent second coming for a fee for salvation and "Gentilized" the good word to the "big buck" world. i.e. Paul was the first media evangelist!!! And he and the other Apostles forgot to pay their Roman taxes and the legendary actions by the Romans made them martyrs for future greed. Paul was guilty of minor greed?

    Along comes Constantine. He saw the growing rich Christian community and recognized a new tax base so he set them "free". Major greed on his part!!

    The Holy Roman "Empirers"/Popes/Kings/Queens/Evangelicals et al continued the money grab selling access to JC and heaven resulting in some of today's richest organizations on the globe i.e. the Christian churches (including the Mormon Church) and related aristocracies. Obvious greed!!!

    An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue, ( Professors Crossan and Wright are On Faith panelists).

    "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

    Some of Paul's money gathering activities some of which resulted in buying the Gentile entry into the then mostly Jewish version of Christianity:

    Paul claimed almost total independence from the "mother church" in Jerusalem.[12] and yet was eager and diligent to bring material support from the various budding Gentile churches that he planted to the mother church at Jerusalem.

    When a famine occurred in Judea, around 45–46,[24] Paul and Barnabas journeyed to Jerusalem to deliver financial support from the Antioch community.[25] According to Acts, Antioch had become an alternative center for Christians following the dispersion of the believers after the death of Stephen. It was in Antioch that the followers of Jesus were first called "Christians."[Ac. 11:26]. This act basically "greased" the entry of non-circu-mcised Gentiles into Christianity.

    "Paul collected the money from his four provinces, Galatia, Macedonia, Achaia and Asia but, for obvious reasons, of propriety, had representatives take each province's own contribution".

    April 1, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      The first failure of Christianity was socialism and Paul played a part in that.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
  12. Salero21

    Atheists are so stupid they don't even know how to persecute. Will probably end up like the dog who chases his own tail. :-D :-P

    April 1, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Salero

      Your self-loathing caught up to you again? How sad for you. Get some professional mental help, then you might not feel the need to be a moron on the internet to validate your flimsily held beliefs.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Two atheists were walking down a street and they came upon a dog pleasuring himself. One says to the other, "I wish I could do that." The other replied, "you can, but you better pet him first."

      April 1, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Wrong.

      The punch line is "You could, but he'd bite you."

      And Lewis Grizzard did a far better job telling it than you did fvcking it up.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
    • Salero21

      Silly athiests...you will all get the butt flu from your homo friends and die :) :) :)

      April 1, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Salero

      Yes, keep trolling. Keep showing people the damage religion does to the mind. People like you, fred Topher, Chad, Bill Deacon are all perfect examples of mental damage that religion causes.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Go play in your sister's underwear drawer, Salero. You know you want to.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Yawn. Boring troll is boring.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      Word dog means nothing else, but a hindu atheist, filthy secular, self centered.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:07 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      I am a dog, word of hindu atheist, hind, absolute, all the live long day

      April 1, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
    • Salero21

      Second Salero21 comment was not me, but atheists are such fools they'll never guess in a millions years!

      April 1, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
    • Salero21

      Islam is the Foundation of the american constipation. Americans are so Fat and constipated!

      April 1, 2013 at 5:38 pm |
  13. HeavenSent

    Righteo, you know you ripped off Jesus' truth with Proverbs 17:28 scripture.

    April 1, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Also, I recently learned yoga so that I could orally pleasure myself while thinking about jesus truth.

      Amen.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Praise the Lord.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I rip it off all the time and wipe myself with it when I am out of TP.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Yoga is for the clueless to silence themselves so they can hear God's truth instead of constantly watching their mouths flap in the wind.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      I perfer to eat chinga, but I know how y'all sword swollowers are.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
  14. Science

    HS...........................how old you say ?

    Looks like that funky talking snake ?........................is the fairy in the fossil bed ?

    Strange Spaghetti-Shaped Creature Is Missing Link: Discovery Pushes Fossil Record Back 200 Million Years

    Mar. 13, 2013 — Canada's 505 million year-old Burgess Shale fossil beds, located in Yoho National Park, have yielded yet another major scientific discovery - this time with the unearthing of a strange spaghetti-shaped creature.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130313142526.htm

    April 1, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      The serpent drowned in Egypt, after the Jews were taken away to Babylon.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Even the ARCHITECTS?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      God devolved the beautiful dragon that tempted Eve into a serpent, that lived in the river and claimed that it made the river.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      John P. Tarver, MS/PE,

      Language correction:

      "Sir Pant browned in Egypt, because The Juice took away his Baby Lotion!"

      April 1, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Daniel is the story of the Princes of Judah taken to Babylon, before the Jews missed a payment. Nebuchadnezzar then proceded to burn Jerusalem to the ground and enslaved all the people. After that earthquakes changed the region. Tyre was destroyed and Egypt became a base nation.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
    • ..

      Uh huh. Except Egypt existed for thousands of years before Nebs did.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:04 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Egypt took half the treasure from the Temple of cedars in Jerusalem before Neb provided sold the Jews "insurance."

      April 1, 2013 at 5:27 pm |
    • ..

      Not what you said you said Tyre was destroyed and Egypt became a base nation. Are you talking about Egypt becoming the base for Jews? Your language is muddy.
      Egypt existed for thousands of years before Nebs, like I said.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
  15. Christians Persecuted? Really? Really?

    Uganda's Anti-Ho.mos.exuality Bill (often called the "Kill the Gays bill" in the media) is a legislative proposal that would broaden the criminalisation of same-s.ex relations in Uganda domestically, and further includes provisions for Ugandans who engage in same-s.ex relations outside of Uganda, asserting that they may be extradited for punishment back to Uganda, and includes penalties for individuals, companies, media organisations, or non-governmental organisations that know of gay people or support LGBT rights.

    So there are places that they are putting gays to death while here in America we still have 29 States that employers can fire their employees just for being born gay. But Christians here would rather whine and moan about how they are soooo persecuted. They could even be put to death in some countries like Iran or Pakistan just for being Christians, which is true, but what they never seem to mention is that strangely thats the same punishment for being an atheist over there. Being a Christian is a choice, being gay is not.

    April 1, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      Nothing is wrong to eliminate hindu secular ism, fabrication, Do not be a hindu denier of truth absolute, or face music.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • SixDegrees

      Also, note that those African campaigns to criminalize gay behavior and punish it with the death penalty, along with nearly all of the opposition to equal rights for gays in the US, are organized and funded largely by fundamentalist evangelical groups.

      Part of their message of love and tolerance, I guess.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      @ISLAM

      The only truth is Jesus. Better start your walk with him soon or you will be facing judgment.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Last time I saw a birth it was of a human infant.

      You too can be a kangaroo if your brain wants it that way.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:06 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Phony heavensent is a COWARD THAT HIDES behind my handle to promote his/her propaganda of hate.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Because MY propaganda of hate is totally different.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:20 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Tune in phony heavensent. I never hated in my life. Not that you can say the same.

      April 1, 2013 at 9:53 pm |
  16. "Mark Twain"

    “Some people worry about the parts of the Bible they don’t understand. Me, I worry about the parts I do understand!”

    --

    "Doubting" Thomas is ok with me.
    Thomas was not so much a doubter as he was an empiricist; that is, he was something of a scientific man.
    Thomas was looking for empirical data: facts, hard and sure evidence, measurable and quantifiable, upon which he could base his decision as to whether or not to believe in Jesus’ resurrection.
    In this he is no different than most of us are about most things, most of the time.

    April 1, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      It takes education, knowledge to understand, and one has to have knowledge in hindu Juda ism, filthy secular ism, self center ism to understand book of hindu mithra ism, racist savior ism, called bible, of hindu dark ages, best of secular, self centered are donkeys, one of hindu secular chosen animal, secular.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • meifumado

      was not a donkey Islams first convert?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "St. Thomas" is a rethorical device. He is the 'everyman' / 'audience surrogate' that the audience to the resurrection story can relate to (like the Porter in Macbeth or the Hobbits in the Lord of the Rings).

      Thomas: "He rose from the dead? You're kidding me right?

      His role is intended to engage the audience to suspend disbelief.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Ooops – 'rhetorical'

      April 1, 2013 at 5:41 pm |
  17. Dom

    This article is hogwash and I'm offended when crap like this gets posted. All historical evidence points to horrific persecution of christians at the hands of the Romans. All this other banter I hear about the age of the earth and this and that is irrelevant the article is not in the least bit scholarly people will make up anything to sell books and people that hate Christians will love it.

    April 1, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • sam stone

      How is that hissy fit going, Dom?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "All historical evidence points to horrific persecution of christians at the hands of the Romans."

      Occasionally yes, but not all the time, and not systematically. That point being that most of the stories of Christian martryrdom have been greatly exaggerated. This is the point of the article, had you the wit and wisdom to read and comprehend it, you would realize.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • End Religion

      Dom, Christianity is dying. You'll need to either find another fantasy or wake up and smell the coffee: they're all frauds.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Christianity was an assault on the major Roman revenue stream. Paul's riot in Ephesis was just the beginning. Wherever Christians are persecuted today the congregation grows.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Do they need ARCHITECTS, Tard?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • truth.

      More people today declare Jesus Christ as their Lord than any other day in the past.

      A huge revival is occurring in Asia.

      You are wrong "end religion".

      April 1, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
    • GodFreeNow

      The early French and Germans were also persecuted by the Romans. The Romans basically persecuted anyone that wasn't Roman. Once the Christians knew what it felt like, they turned around and persecuted the Jews, Muslims, witches, blacks and now gays to a lesser extent.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • SixDegrees

      "Waaaa! Stop telling the truth! You're persecuting me!"

      April 1, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
    • sam stone

      "More people today declare Jesus Christ as their Lord than any other day in the past."

      Yep, in Asia and Africa. Desperation is a boon to religions. It is shrinking in North America and Europe

      April 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • sam

      I have a feeling Dom is offended by hogwash all the time.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      truth.
      "More people today declare Jesus Christ as their Lord than any other day in the past."

      Guess what? There are more people on Earth than ever before - over 7 Billion now, and rising, most prominently in undeveloped third world countries with uneducated, highly superst'itious people.

      The percentage of believers in the Christian legend has remained roughly the same worldwide for many decades, which shows an overall no-growth pattern.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      The Romans persecuted my own tribe of Pixies in Scotland, but we hurt them real bad and they went home.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "The Romans basically persecuted anyone that wasn't Roman.",

      I wonder if the Carthaginians felt 'persecuted' by Scipio. Talk about systematic.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      End Religion, not to worry, Jesus already warned us what would happen in your last generation.

      Amos 8:11-12

      11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
      12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. (KJV)

      Amen.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
    • sam stone

      oooh, the Last Generation....luckily THAT hasn't been predicted before

      April 1, 2013 at 6:39 pm |
    • End Religion

      This must be a reason why Christians are so cranky and mean: they keep thinking the rapture is today and it never comes. That's gotta be annoying, your god hanging you out to dry like that.

      April 1, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      End Religion, the rapture isn't biblical. It's man made. This fake rapture theory goes against Jesus' truth that He returns to His favorite place on earth, that we are to endure to the end, the meek shall inherit the earth for examples of some of his scriptures that contradict that teaching.

      April 1, 2013 at 9:57 pm |
  18. HeavenSent

    A Frayed Knot, frayed is appropriate for you.

    April 1, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      Wow. Heheheheheh. Well, I am just fit to be tied after that lashing!... especially coming from a cheap, cloying 1950s cologne!

      April 1, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • The real Tom

      And the point goes flying WAY over HS's empty noggin.

      You know, HS, you were probably one of those stupid girls who screamed bloody murder every time a boy dipped your pigtail in the ink well.

      You just never grew up, did you?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • sam

      omg HS that was such a burn! Gotta get some cold water for it!

      April 1, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      WOW, KA-POW, ZONK, ZOWIIE GEE BATMAN AND ROBIN ... oh, sorry, I was reviving up for how you got the big bang theory. Never mind for the mindless. Basket of Apples scarecrow?

      April 1, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
  19. HeavenSent

    Spot, it's not my problem that you have low self esteem not to learn and abide in Jesus' truth. Now, go polish the apple for your teachers, you're obviously good at it.

    April 1, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      You keep lying. You say jesus' truth when you know it cannot be proven to be so. You can honestly say that you believe it to be truth, but it is a lie to say it IS truth.
      When you lie you make zombie jesus cry.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:06 pm |
    • sam stone

      No, HS, but it IS your low self esteem that gets you to purport to speak for god

      April 1, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      My fingers smell and my butt hurts. I don't know why.

      Amen.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Phony heavensent, you ensure that PITA reigns supreme.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Sam Stone, all true Christians that actually read the Bible can type His scriptures. You nonbelievers tell Jesus what He had written instead of learning His truth.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Richard Cranium, all of Jesus' scriptures are truth. You'd know it if you humbled yourself to learn what He left us.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • meifumado

      confucius say " He who goes to sleep with itchy butt hole , wakes up with smelly fingers"

      April 1, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • Dr. Seuss

      HS, all of my writings are truth. You'd know it if you humbled yourself to learn what I left you.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
    • sam stone

      Where have I done that, HS?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
    • sam stone

      HS: Anyone can type the scriptures, whether or not they are True Christians (TM)

      April 1, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
    • sam

      Gosh that was so scary, HS!! Is that Jesus' truth also, or is it just you farting from both ends like usual?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      heaven spent
      Since jesus never wrote anything in the bible, and god did not write anything in the bible , you do not know if jesus said ANY of what was attributed to him...again, you are lying. It is not truth, it was written by men, and is fiction( I can say it is fiction since so much of it has been proven false.).

      April 1, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
    • tallulah13

      What is all this talk about middle eastern flat bread? Why pita? Why not naan or lavash? Or even matzoh?

      April 1, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
  20. HeavenSent

    hawaiiguest, you're lying again. I never stated how old the world is, nor do I know of any scriptures that have opened up our eyes to Jesus' truth yet.. I said, when Christians speak of this earth age (the 2nd one we currently live in) they will say that it is between 6,000-13,000 years old. You do know hawaiiiguest that the Bible tells us of 3 earth ages.

    April 1, 2013 at 3:58 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Where does the bible say that Genesis 1. is the beginning of the second age of the earth?

      I'm starting to think you've mixed up your bible with the Lord of the Rings.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • Shout-Out: TheBibleReloaded

      [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSKAGA7AwLQ&w=640&h=390]

      April 1, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      You've made this claim before, yet you have yet to provide the actual scripture that backs you up. And yes, you have stated that you believe the earth to be 6-10 thousand years old.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      GOPer, you can start reading Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (2 Peter 3:6).

      April 1, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      HeavenSent,

      The Bible 'tells' us that bats are birds, hares chew the cud, dead dove's blood cures leprosy, and all sorts of other wacky stuff. Pffft. The Bible is nothing.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:06 pm |
    • Thinker

      HeavenSent-That is a great post!!

      April 1, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Yes, a person with no eyes to see or ears to hear his truth hawaiiguest is telling me what I wrote. If anything with those time frames, I wrote that THIS 2ND EARTH AGE (that we currently live in) is between 6,000 – 13,000 years old. I never stated the exact age of the earth because if Jesus wrote this truth, it hasn't been understood in scriptures yet.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (2 Peter 3:6)."

      Is that not a reference to Genesis 6-9? Surely Genesis 1 precedes this?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Polishing the techer's rocket seems to be all these atheists are good at. Their science is outdated and has become a sort of religion among them.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @JPT,

      wot's a techer?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Hey, John the Tard, did you manage to look up the spelling of ARCHITECT?

      Stupid twerp.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV, the books of Genesis to Revelation are to be cross referenced to comprehend Jesus' truth.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Only those words in the KJV have a correct spelling, silly troll. English was always a free form spelling language, except those spellings used by a Dutch printer named John Wesly; that are English Law

      April 1, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
    • The real Tom

      John, doesn't jeebus frown on lying? Why do you have to lie? Are you embarrassed by your stupidity in having fvcked up "architect" and "teacher"? Good. You should be ashamed of your carelessness and ignorance.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Here's a great biblical scholar site to learn Jesus' truth. These folks did all the work for you. http://www.biblestudysite.com/1stage.htm

      You've welcome.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Ooppps. I can't answer the phone and type at the same time. LOL. That was suppose to be "you're"

      April 1, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Jebus is called the threshing field in Genesis and their treaty with Abraham is why Jerusalem is divided today.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
    • A Frayed Knot

      John P. Tarver, MS/PE,

      We put lots of trust in engineers that they will be precise in their attention to details. I hope that you 'engineer' outhouses or something. I sure hope that you have not designed any bridges or tall buildings that are going to fall on us because of your sloppiness!

      April 1, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      And once again, quote your scriptural support for your assertions. You continue to reassert yourself, just like you did in your old view of a 6-10 year old earth. Do you have any scriptural support?

      April 1, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Uh-huh. Nobody cares about the words of some fvckwit who doesn't know how to spell words that have more than one syllable.

      You're a dope.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      I don't care about spelling and if I want to spell, I turn on a mindless bot. You have a worthless skill with little value.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
    • The real Tom

      No, honey, I'm actually quite skilled–at spotting frauds. You aren't even close to being well-educated or bright. You're a careless, stupid dipwad.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • The real Tom

      When boneheads like you try to post your religious twaddle and can't manage to write a coherent sentence that any sentient 8th grader ought to be able to manage, you just reinforce the belief that all of you are dull-witted morons with one tooth.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, start reading for yourself http://www.biblestudysite.com/1stage.htm.

      April 1, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
    • derp

      "Ooppps. I can't answer the phone and type at the same time"

      There are phone lines in your trailer park?

      April 1, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      So you have a page that spins like a top without giving actual scriptural backing to support anything. How nice.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      LOL That site is hilarious. It tries to disprove evolution by showing a picture of something that looks like footprints, yet they give no citations for the discovery, or any research done, make more assertions, and generally be as dishonest as possible.

      Did you actually think that that site was going to be convincing to anyone paying the slightest bit of attention?

      April 1, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
    • John P. Tarver, MS/PE

      Christian evolution stories are a hoot, but many Ba'al worshippers in the congregation enjoy the racism Darwin evolked.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest. I know this will be difficult for you to digest .... but the evolution lie is a ripoff of childbirth.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      Congratulations on once again not actually addressing anything. You have provided no scriptural support for your assertions (yet you say scripture is the most important thing), and you can't even respond with anything substantial to when it is pointed out that the site you linked to is complete crap.
      You haven't changed at all, still a pathetic little liar without any clue of anything you're talking about.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "the books of Genesis to Revelation are to be cross referenced to comprehend Jesus' truth"

      Why?

      Couldn't God the omnipotent and omniscient make himslelf a bit clearer?

      April 1, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
    • tallulah13

      The really funny thing, HS is that you probably believe it. You would rather believe (and repeat) a lie that supports your faith then understand a truth that contradicts it.

      The truth remains that evolution is supported by ample evidence, whereas all we have is hearsay in support of your god. All your threats and insults don't change that. They only turn people away from what you want them to believe.

      April 1, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      tallulah13, believe me what I write to you. I'm just sowing seeds. You have to humble yourself to ask Jesus to water you. Other than that, you can stay deluded that you know truth.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
    • The real Tom

      HS is sowing seeds and spreading manure. The manure part comes easily.

      April 1, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • tallulah13

      It's hysterically funny that HS seems to think that other people need to humble themselves. I've seldom encountered anyone as arrogant and as full of themselves as HS.

      April 1, 2013 at 7:16 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      Are you done already? Will you be ignoring me now?

      @The real Tom

      yes we're all in awe of your amazing ability to take another persons name and show exactly how useless you are by fail trolling.

      April 1, 2013 at 7:17 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @The real Tom

      Wrong thread and wrong Tom.

      April 1, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
    • End Religion

      Oh my, another YEC nut... as if she wasn't already nutty enough.

      April 1, 2013 at 8:21 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, I did answer your question. Read what I wrote to GOPer before you hastily write.

      April 1, 2013 at 10:06 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      You've answered nothing. You provided a site that is completely ridiculous, full of flat assertions without any backing, and attempts to prove "god done it" by making more assertions that evolution is false.
      You've done nothing but what you usually do. Reassert, and reassert, and reassert.

      April 1, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @HS,

      I looked at the website you listed – such tortured rationalizations – especially the bits about people having lived on earth before, but not made flesh – that was a good one.

      But OK fine, you're not a young earth creationist – great. You're an old-earth creationist and have to contort your scripture to fit the realities of a planet that is 4.5B years old. Whatever floats your boat.

      April 1, 2013 at 10:12 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @HS,

      you could have just said you are an old-earth creationist. Far simpler.

      Why is that declaration so hard for you people. Perhaps you are afraid that the young-earth fundies will ridicule and p.e.r.s.e.c.u.t.e you?

      April 1, 2013 at 10:16 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      After Eärendil came to Valinor to beg for the aid of the Valar, they sent a mighty force into Middle-earth to do battle with Morgoth. Led by Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, the forces of the Valar, with the peoples of the Vanyar and the Noldor that had remained in Aman, sailed eastward in the ships of the Teleri.

      In the great battle that followed, Morgoth's armies were almost completely destroyed, and only a few of his Balrogs, Dragons and Orcs survived. Morgoth himself was taken as prisoner and shut beyond the confines of the World, and the Silmarils were recovered from his Iron Crown. In the tumult of the war, Beleriand and the lands to the north were destroyed and sunk beneath the sea, and the shape of Middle-earth was changed.

      And thus ended the first age of Middle-Earth.

      April 1, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      GOPer, I wasn't trying to make it difficult for you when I wrote that I don't attend a church and I actually read and comprehend the Bible.

      April 1, 2013 at 10:57 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Correction GOPer, contorting or rewriting Jesus' truth is not my forte. Learning His truth is fascinating. Try it some time.

      April 1, 2013 at 11:01 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @HS,

      "I wrote that I don't attend a church"

      When did you write that? I only questioned your notion of "ages" of the earth. Had you declared yourself as an old-earth creationist I wouldn't have wasted my time.

      As to "comprehending" this is a strange term for banging a square peg into a round hole with contorted rationalizations.

      April 1, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      hawaiiguest, Jesus is truth. I pray that you learn this some day. Until then, stay well. I'm logging out. Here's a good read to help you help yourself. http://www.biblestudysite.com/answers12.htm#6

      Peace be with you and always with you.

      April 1, 2013 at 11:08 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      GOPer, I've always posted that I haven't attended church since my early childhood. Read what I just wrote to hawaiiguest. You can start learning true understandings of His scriptures and how fascinating and awesome Jesus is. Until then. Good night.

      April 1, 2013 at 11:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @HeavenSent

      So you still couldn't give any kind of answer. You still couldn't actually defend anything you say, and continue to revert to irrelevant idiocy. You're pathetic.

      April 2, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.