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April 12th, 2013
04:00 PM ET

Where do morals come from?

By Kelly Murray, CNN

Editor's note: The Science Seat is a feature in which our sister blog CNN Light Years sits down with movers and shakers from different areas of scientific exploration. This is the eighth installment.

(CNN)–
Being nice to others and cooperating with them aren't uniquely human traits. Frans de Waal, director of Emory University's Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Lawrenceville, Georgia, studies how our close primate relatives also demonstrate behaviors suggestive of a sense of morality.

De Waal recently published a book called "The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates," which synthesizes evidence that there are biological roots in human fairness, and explores what that means for the role of religion in human societies.

FULL STORY
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Science

soundoff (1,276 Responses)
  1. biggles

    No evidence for god! Morons. That was god almighty speaking to korn's heart, fools.

    April 13, 2013 at 1:21 am |
    • Akira

      I thought it was just Welch's heart.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:25 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Well that was nice of god to talk to his heart....I bet his liver feels left out though.

      April 13, 2013 at 2:21 am |
    • biggles

      These are the dingbats who accuse fundies of unwillingness to engage in real debate.

      Funny, too, how Dorothy answers posts not directed to her and how the demons never debate one on one. They always mix together the demons who answer and there is always more than one of them. Plus, whenever they are trapped, they answer the wrong question, misinterpret the question or play dumb.

      April 13, 2013 at 7:56 am |
    • Damocles

      @biggles

      What in the world are you on about?

      April 13, 2013 at 8:03 am |
    • Dorothy

      John 15:26-27

      The Work of the Holy Spirit

      26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

      April 13, 2013 at 8:47 am |
    • Science

      Powered by promortial soup..................... dorothy

      April 13, 2013 at 8:57 am |
    • biggles

      This is the best atheists can do?

      April 13, 2013 at 10:21 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      biggles,

      I have not seen either one of you answer or post anything that would lead one to believe you want an honest discussion. Post something to change my mind and I will answer honestly. When your beliefs are criticized you go on and on about how god is going to punish us, blah, blah blah. I will be honest with you, if that version of god existed, and I don't have any reason to think it does, I would worship that anyway. Why do you? There is a discussion starter.

      April 13, 2013 at 10:25 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      ***I would not worship that anyway.***

      April 13, 2013 at 10:27 am |
  2. Dippy

    Who created god?

    April 13, 2013 at 12:40 am |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      who created constant, nothing can exist without, any suggestion.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:44 am |
    • HotAirAce

      A bunch of desert dwelling goat herders 2,000+ years ago?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:46 am |
    • biggles

      Murray

      April 13, 2013 at 1:15 am |
    • Akira

      Murray?? Oh, that cracked me up! Thanks!

      April 13, 2013 at 1:22 am |
    • Pickle

      Isa 44:[6-8] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:25 am |
    • Akira

      That wasn't the question, Pickle. The question was who created God, not if another god created God.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:33 am |
    • Pickle

      God's statement is that he is the only God there is, has been, or ever will be over all eternity. That is my understanding.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:41 am |
    • Dippy

      Well, if god said that, then the whole issue is cleared up. Thank you for enlightening us, pickle, you've certainly been helpful. What would we do without you?

      April 13, 2013 at 2:18 am |
    • Pickle

      What you should do without me, is read the bible. Believe what they said in the bible, God exists. 305 lotteries worth, he exists. Yes.

      April 13, 2013 at 2:30 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Reading the Bible lead me to being an atheist.

      A real god would have done better.

      April 13, 2013 at 2:38 am |
    • Dippy

      I've read the bible, Pickle. Very little of it is believable.

      April 13, 2013 at 2:46 am |
    • Pickle

      Was short some. 306. What you're missing is that miracles are common for God. You believing something common for God is stopping you from knowing the only God there is. God is real, he exists, he's there, right now, he's been there since before the universe he created, and he'll be around for all eternity. You can either believe him and do what he said, or...

      April 13, 2013 at 3:03 am |
  3. Moby Schtick

    God is so afraid of me that he won't even show up to discuss any upcoming compet.ition.

    April 13, 2013 at 12:33 am |
    • Austin

      Insider gambling?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:35 am |
    • biggles

      Try soap

      April 13, 2013 at 1:22 am |
  4. Dorothy

    John 15:26-27
    New International Version (NIV)
    The Work of the Holy Spirit

    26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

    April 13, 2013 at 12:27 am |
  5. one gnat who fears God

    According to 2 Chron. 28:19, morality is from God, as far as I can tell. Its says moral decline was "encouraged." They were encouraged to do "evil," the opposite of "righteousness." Righteousness is also from God (Psa. 64:5-6).

    *the voice of one gnat who fears God*

    April 13, 2013 at 12:17 am |
    • Dippy

      Wow, just wow. Unbelievable.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:30 am |
    • Austin

      Dippy get a clue!

      April 13, 2013 at 12:34 am |
  6. ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

    EPIC HISTORY OF BIRTH OF HINDUS IGNORANT S AND THEIR HINDU SECULAR ISM.
    In hindu dark ages, a woman was laying in bed, while her husband was away, she was having her lust pleasing dreams in hindu secular ism, filthy self center ism of enjoying company of her husband in bed in a hindu darkened cave, a hindu filthy languor, secular daddy of hindu hanuman, stupid monkey, secular, every hindu believes to be their god saw her moaning and took advantage of her, her husband came back and had relationship , but she had already been pregnant by hindu crook languor, filthy secular. She never told her husband of the indecent, time of child birth her husband took her to a medicine man for deliver, and waited for hours, while he heard wild noises from inside delivery cave. Finally medicine man came out of cave sweating and all bruised, her husband rushed to him, and asked about wellbeing of his wife and child, boy or a girl, medicine man could not answer, while he was trying to figure out way to explain, finally he put himself together and started to explain mystery of his child birth. AS HE STATED , RIGHT AFTER BIRTH, CHILD JUMPED AND CLUNG TO CEILING OF THE CAVE, HIM AND HIS ASSISTANT WERE TRYING HARD TO CATCH CHILD FOR S GENDER IDENTIFICATION, BUT TO NO VIALS, AFTER HOURS THEY GAVE UP.
    Child of hindu crook Languor, secular from a woman was called Bujrungbhali, meaning ruler of his own limit, a hindu secular, stupid self centered, he matted with his own half kind, hindu monkeys and donkeys, stupid secular s, self centered animals and multiplied enormously,
    Living by hindu secular ism, self center ism, kenjer ism, today his progeny claims their linage from Monkeys AND DONKEYS, stupid secular s As their maternal gods. So much so, producers of Gorge of the Jungle movie borrowed concept from inception of hindus, ignorant and made a lot of money.
    Every letter of a word has meanings of its own, seeds to grow crop of words for humanity to communicate. From seeds of letters, blocks are created and than blocks are combined to create words to communicate intentions of a person. Word ATHEIST MEANS, A SELF CENTERED, DENIER OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE, OR A PERSON CLAIMING HIMSELF TO BE TRUTH ABSOLUTE GOD, A HINDU SHAMAN, A CROOK SPEAKING BY HIS SOUL, DESIRE, NOT OF TRUTH ABSOLUTE OF A MATTER. Atheism is not of human, but in line with mind set of a animals. Following words are best example to identify Atheism.
    DOG
    Letter D, means, THE. Vowel O, represents, QUANTIFIED AND Letter G is result of one s intention from his mind and heart. Sounded Ga. meaning a secular, self centered by intention in opposition to truth absolute by intention. or an atheist,
    MONKEY
    Letter M means essence or choice of an intention, Vowel O represents Quantified. Letter N means enshrined or established. Letter K identifies function of a noun. Vowel E represents unity of an adjective and a noun in essence. Letter Y means Ye, from heart and mind, base of word Yes. Meaning by self choice, with dis regard to truth absolute, a Secular, self centered or an atheist,
    DONKEY
    Letter D, means THE, Vowel O means QUANTIFIED, Letter N means established or enshrined. Letter K identifies function of a noun. Vowel E represents unity of an adjective and a noun in essence. Letter Y means Ye, from heart and mind, base of word Yes. Meaning by self choice, with dis regard to truth absolute, a Secular, self centered or an atheist,
    As a matter of fact, word ANIMAL means nothing else, but a atheist, self centered or denier of truth absolute.
    Atheism, self center ism is way of animals and hindrance negativity to truth absolute GOD, foundation of consti tution of USA and universe and source for existence of everything in existence, otherwise known as constant.
    Atheism is way of hindus, deniers of truth absolute, not of human, but animals observed by pot head hindu Swamis, ignorant goons, secular, self centered by their hindu soul, filthy desire and foundation of hinduism racism of hindu dark ages.

    April 13, 2013 at 12:10 am |
    • Dippy

      Does anybody actually read any of this guy's shit?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:19 am |
    • Austin

      @ Islam
      That was a beautiful poast. What is "no vials". To no avail ? What does kinjer mean?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:32 am |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      You do and like story of your birth, hindu secular, ignorant monkey.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:33 am |
    • Austin

      Say what?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:37 am |
    • Dippy

      What is a poast, Austin?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:38 am |
    • Austin

      Why are you being mean to me?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:39 am |
    • Peteyroo

      You have your head so far up your backside that you can part your hair with your tongue!

      April 13, 2013 at 12:40 am |
    • Austin

      Q
      In the realm of interwebs, there are posts and there are poasts. A post can only become a poast once it has reached the relative hotness of toast. In other words, if it is popular.

      3. Poast

      Boastful post that make the poster feel better about themselves, but for whom other can't care less.

      1. Poast

      Same as post or posting as a message or a commentary posted on an internet forum. Poast instead of post follows the same pattern of transcribing "ou" diphthong as "oa" as in moar instead of more.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:43 am |
    • Austin

      Let us part hair then?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:45 am |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      Austin, Why am I mean? because my mother was rapped by Punjabi Hindu, I was born out of wedlock, I will never forgive and forget hindus,

      April 14, 2013 at 12:21 am |
  7. faith

    1) "You will burn in hell for not believing in my garbage." not garbage. rest is true

    2) "You will burn forever and forever. Oh fvck you will burn forever and forever." true

    3) "I'm glad that you will burn forever and forever." that's what you want, i'm happy for you

    4) "I won't burn. I will go to my heaven." it ain't mine but true otherwise

    4 is numero one

    April 12, 2013 at 11:58 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "is numero one"

      Bwahhahahahhahhhahahaha! The stupid muttonhead can't even manage to be stupidly consistent.

      "Numero one." What a fvcktard.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:04 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Wow, I would want my worst enemy to burn forever, or even an hour.

      Back to the topic "Where does morality come from"

      hmmmmm

      April 13, 2013 at 12:04 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      **wouldn't**

      April 13, 2013 at 12:06 am |
    • faith

      why do you want to go to hell?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:14 am |
    • Saraswati

      The problem I think we have is that humans gain happiness largely through their perception of being better and better off than their comparison group. When people don't feel they have much else going for themselves they're generally going to make up stuff like this "I'm going to heaven while you burn" or "my race is better than yours" nonsense. People have egos and it's not weakness; it's just what it is to be human. But in countries like the US with great disparities in wealth and weak community ties people are going to be left struggling for a world view that can put them at the top. Even if their victory is seen as being the "most humble" it's still a sense of superiority.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:15 am |
    • biggles

      Blah blah blah

      I am on my way to eternal glory in heaven and these morons r going to hell. Why cry? If you don't like it, don't go to hell. What idiots.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:19 am |
    • Science

      Hey biggles glad you going to Hell MI USA

      April 13, 2013 at 4:52 am |
  8. Reality

    Where do morals come from?

    Human evolution away from the "dark side" of apes and chimps.

    Scroll to p. 1 to see some early examples.

    April 12, 2013 at 11:23 pm |
    • Pickle

      Atheists believe the dumbest stuff. They think death created life and made it better.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • The real Tom

      PIck, were you born stupid or do you practice and take lessons?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:54 pm |
    • Dippy

      Pickle doesn't seem smart enough to even understand the question.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:58 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Dippy, I'm not sure Pickle knows the difference between a question and an answer or between fact and opinion.

      Pretty much par for the course here.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:00 am |
    • Pickle

      The atheists always claim death is making life better. Thinning out the gene pool and darwin awards, that life appeared out nowhere in a dead universe. That is the base claim made by atheists, and it's ridiculous. God made everything and I agree with him. He is it, he is the one, God is the creator.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:38 am |
    • Mary

      Pickle
      If everything needs a creator, who made God?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:52 am |
    • Pickle

      Isa 44:[6-8] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:06 am |
    • Reality

      Also think about the logic (or lack thereof).

      “I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:

      x=Pat Robertson
      x=the ayatollah Sistani
      x=David Koresh
      x=the Koran
      x=Pickle

      more “logic”?

      “I believe there is One God Jehovah because He is revealed in the infallible
      Bible. I believe the Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the One God Jehovah.”

      April 13, 2013 at 10:31 am |
    • o

      You avoid the door and circle around the barn endlessly

      April 13, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
  9. The real Tom

    Hey, y'all! "HERE ME NOW!"

    Direct quote from Kit turd.

    April 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm |
    • Answer

      ===quote the christards===

      "You believe in nothing!!!"

      ==end==

      **The variation in the number of exclamations may not be accurate.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      My current favorite: (if there is no free will) "the electrical signals in our brains would have as much significance as the ones in my lawnmower, and your criticisms of theistic beliefs is immoral."

      April 12, 2013 at 11:27 pm |
    • Kilto

      My answer had a dramatic effect I think yes but anway....Atheists believe in nothing yet it requires tremendous faith to do so.....

      April 12, 2013 at 11:35 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "My answer had a dramatic effect I think yes but anway.."

      Yeah. It made me laugh so hard I got the hiccups.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • Answer

      Choose from the following sentences that pleases you christards the most...

      1) "You will burn in hell for not believing in my garbage."

      2) "You will burn forever and forever. Oh fvck you will burn forever and forever."

      3) "I'm glad that you will burn forever and forever."

      4) "I won't burn. I will go to my heaven."

      Let's see how your mind functions. Let us see what comforts your small little mind when you are confronted on your pitiful delusion.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:37 pm |
    • Answer

      Dramatic effort - over an internet connection - through text. Right.

      That's why we laugh. XD

      April 12, 2013 at 11:38 pm |
    • Akira

      I don't usually do this, but this made me laugh so hard I had to save it:

      “competent adult”

      =>A. Who are you to define who is competent and who isnt? We have laws against discrimination against people with disabilities.

      B. Who are you to define what “adult” is? Who made you King?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
    • biggles

      Austin, why r atheists so hung up on hell? They whine all the time, like they have no choice. Only one of them has sealed her fate.

      They cry like no others

      April 13, 2013 at 1:13 am |
    • Akira

      I would posit that the people who constantly talk about it are the ones hung up on hell; that would be you and faith, biggles. Who sounds exactly like you, by the way.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:20 am |
    • faith

      wow, dottie, u think?

      well then let's talk about his blood, shed for all of your sins

      April 13, 2013 at 1:41 am |
  10. Bob1god

    That's easy , Morel Oral, Adult Swim!

    April 12, 2013 at 11:20 pm |
  11. faith

    "I really felt God helped me have the courage to quit. I wasn't happy with Korn for the last few years because my heart was with my kid. She was with her nanny most of the time at home. I was always worried about her and wondering if she felt she was unloved because her mother left her [when she was a baby], and I was never home. It was just a constant battle.
    Welch became a Christian, quit drugs, and dedicated his life to his faith and his young daughter, Jennea"

    April 12, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Addicts often switch their focus to religion.... so what?

      My spouse is an alcoholic, has been sober for 23 years, and is an atheist.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:21 pm |
    • faith

      cheeseburger is a liar

      spouse not sober if she has one

      korn didn't say a word about religion

      fool

      April 12, 2013 at 11:46 pm |
    • faith

      sick demons bitterly minimize korn's born again relationship with jesus Christ.

      not only are they peeved and tongue tied, they refuse to say one positive word about his freedom from the bondage of drugs. sam the fvck, what up wit dat mother fvcker?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:51 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Since the definition of religious "faith" is "pretending to know something you don't know"

      It is the perfect name for you.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:54 pm |
    • ..

      Faith.
      "Welch became a Christian, quit drugs, and dedicated his life to his faith and his young daughter, Jennea”

      Christianity isn't a religion?

      BATC is correct.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:56 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      I am glad korn is drug free,

      to bad he substi.tuted it with a delusion though

      April 12, 2013 at 11:59 pm |
    • Akira

      BATC didn't say anything about Korn, either.
      What he SAID was addicts often turn to religion. So what?
      He's right. The tenets of AA and NA hinge on a higher power...and for some that means God.
      You can't just call people a liar when they answer a post.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:01 am |
    • faith

      korn didn't say a word about religion

      April 13, 2013 at 12:02 am |
    • faith

      aa and na are not affiliated with any religion.

      i can and do call liars liars. u will burn in hell.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:04 am |
    • faith

      "Blessed are the Cheesemakers
      I am glad korn is drug free,"

      feel better now?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:06 am |
    • Saraswati

      There seem to bea lot of these reading comprehension problems going around today.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:07 am |
    • faith

      Blessed are the Cheesemakers
      Since the definition of religious "faith" is "pretending to know something you don't know"
      It is the perfect name for you.

      for i know whom i have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which i've committed unto him against that day

      April 13, 2013 at 12:11 am |
    • Akira

      You fail to read and comprehend.
      I SAID that AA and NA tenets hinge on a higher power, which for some is God.

      You seem to use the word LIAR in response to anyone who answers you.
      I am not going to burn in hell.
      You will, however, for continuously breaking the 9th Commandment.
      Mathew 7, dear.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:13 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "i can and do call liars liars. u will burn in hell."

      Do YOU feel better? Wow....

      April 13, 2013 at 12:16 am |
    • Akira

      Blesssed are the Cheesemakers
      I am glad korn is drug free,”

      feel better now?

      He said that after you called him a liar and said his spouse wasn't sober, which was, of course, a lie on YOUR part.
      His original post to you said nothing about Korn at all.
      How do YOU feel about burning in hell for lying? The posts are time stamped, you know.
      Feel better now?

      My goodness, you are at cross-purposes with yourself.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:19 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "for i know whom i have believed"

      Your god is an asshat and after reading a couple of your posts I can see why you feel connected to him.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:22 am |
    • Akira

      And yet she doesn't capitalize God or Jesus Christ? Yeah, a lot of respect there.
      She's proven who the liar is here, in this exchange. It's not us, BATC.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:32 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      I know Akira, faith is obviously conflicted and angry....

      Who is Korn anyway?

      April 13, 2013 at 12:50 am |
    • Akira

      BATC, an alternative band from the late 90's, whose breakout hit was the song "Freak On A Leash".
      They're still together, as far as I know, (well, minus Welch), but their heyday seems to have passed.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:15 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Oh That Korn,

      So the Welch guy went all Kirk Cameron then....got it.

      April 13, 2013 at 2:13 am |
  12. wa wa

    Morality was invented during the French revolution.

    April 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
    • wa wa

      Professor Higgs .........."There is no God"

      So much for an honest scientist there Higgs. You are biased. O well. God can still use you however He wants.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • faith

      jesus loves you, wa wa

      April 12, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • Austin

      You too faith. ahha. How's it going? Do you have this place under control?

      April 12, 2013 at 10:46 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      A view from hindu secular ism, stupid monkey ism, Moral, limit of truth absolute have always been around and will be around long after human have vanished.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • ..

      If by "control" you mean weird mumblings about dorothy and Korn, then yeah, faith baybeeeee has it under control. If you mean does anyone understand a damned thing she's babbling about, then no.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
  13. Chad

    @Tom, Tom, the Other One " If we (your opponents) are the ones who must steadfastly maintain that the thing you understand as free will does not exist, why are you so preoccupied with it?"

    =>very simply because the vast majority of atheists dont realize that their world view forces them to embrace the notion that free will does not exist. That we are all merely biological machines with no soul, no different from a dandelion.

    The VAST majority of people can find no sense at all in that. It is not what they know they experience on a daily basis.

    Just one more way to show the utter irrationality of the atheistic position..

    April 12, 2013 at 10:15 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      What's utterly irrational is your commitment to your dishonesty. You have yet to justify how atheism is necessarily naturalism, and how naturalism is necessarily linked to determinism by default.
      You've avoided this ever since you first asserted your asinine position, and I suspect you will continue to avoid it because it's easier for you to continue to reassert the same bullshit over and over again.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:19 pm |
    • Chad

      since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to posit a natural "cause" for the origin of the universe
      since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to reject the existence of the soul
      since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to view the universe as impersonal, and entirely governed by physical laws only.
      since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to view all living organisms merely products of the natural world, entirely governed by the physical laws.

      Naturalism commonly refers to the viewpoint that laws of nature (as opposed to supernatural ones) operate in the universe, and that nothing exists beyond the natural universe or, if it does, it does not affect the natural universe

      April 12, 2013 at 10:30 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      "since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to posit a natural "cause" for the origin of the universe
      since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to reject the existence of the soul
      since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to view the universe as impersonal, and entirely governed by physical laws only."
      Traditional Buddhists do not have a god, yet they have the concept of a soul, an afterlife, and the belief that our choices affect everything.
      Also, how does any of that necessitate determinism? You're just listing things that are not necessarily true and tying your definition of free will to the concept of a soul just because it makes your point.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • Answer

      Look at the retard Chard...

      Can't make up an atheist persona, 'Rachel #2', to laud defeat upon 'her', Chard?
      What's stopping you, Chard?

      April 12, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • Chad

      If all you believe in is the natural universe, all you have is perfect determinism 🙂

      By definition.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      Again, how so?

      April 12, 2013 at 10:54 pm |
    • The real Tom

      What makes you think that anyone who doesn't believe what you do has belief only in the "natural universe", Chardo?

      Does it ever dawn on you that not everyone has faith in just one possibility?

      Suppose I simply admit that I don't know?

      That puts me way in front of some azzwipe like you, Chard. You claim to know, but you don't. You simply believe. Goody, goody. Doesn't mean you're right. Just means you've shut off any other possibility.

      Seems like your mind is closed.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:57 pm |
    • Answer

      Chardo, can't accept every individual who has an iden-t-i-ty that disproves his vapid words/ definition.

      That's why there are s-c-u-m like Chard.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:01 pm |
    • Answer

      Go make up an atheist female persona, Chardo.

      Go make her up, try to conquer 'her', and fail. Tell us the 'name' while you're at it.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
    • ..

      Quit trying to pidgeonhole each atheist into a box of your own construct, Chad...you certainly bitch about it enough when one makes sweeping generalizations about Christianity.
      You are just as guilty of quote mining as the people you rail against cherry-picking the Bible.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
    • Chad

      "sweeping generalizations"??

      how so?

      are you aware of ANY way to reconcile atheism and free will rationally?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • Akira

      free will
      noun
      1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: "You took on the responsibility of your own free will."
      2. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

      I do not see why the term "free will" can't cover both religious AND atheistic views.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:38 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Yes. But why bother posting anything about it, Chard, since you'll twist words, lie, and smother with emoticons any response you don't like? It's a waste of time and effort to bother responding to you.

      I'd rather just live my life as I choose and ignore twits like you. You'll be just as dead as I will in another 40 or 50 years. The difference is that I'll have enjoyed my life here, while you'll have spent yours waiting to be admitted into a heaven that doesn't exist.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:40 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      "since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to posit a natural "cause" for the origin of the universe"

      We've been through this. The Universe may not have a cause at all.

      "since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to reject the existence of the soul"

      It's reasonable to not believe in things for which no one has provided sufficient evidence. It's also reasonable to not reject something that hasn't risen to the level of proof or disproof – that doesn't merit consideration.

      "since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to view the universe as impersonal, and entirely governed by physical laws only."

      The Universe is a very personal thing. All we have of it is what we construct in our own minds from our limited experience of it. It seems to be governed by laws, some of which we know more-or-less and some we may not even be able to know.

      "since atheists reject a creator, they have no option but to view all living organisms merely products of the natural world, entirely governed by the physical laws."

      They are products of the natural world, but the limitations that imposes on them may not be something we can know entirely.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • Chad

      atheists believe only in the material universe, the only difference between you and a dandelion is the complexity of the biology.

      Does a turnip have free will?

      At what point did free will develop in the "evolutionary" tree?

      does algae have free will?

      The atheist view is that we are programmed by the universe. You don't realize the implications of your belief system because you never thought it thru. You spend all your time mocking Christians..
      but, now you know..

      April 12, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "The atheist view is that we are programmed by the universe."

      No. It isn't.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:45 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Akira,

      Chad likes to argue with his straw man and...

      He thinks this arguement somehow "proves god" and even more absurdly "his god"...

      Empty tomb best describes to space between his ears...

      April 12, 2013 at 11:50 pm |
    • Answer

      Chardo,

      Your heaven is your want. You want it so bad. It's funny watching a desperate person plead for it. XD

      April 12, 2013 at 11:50 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Are you trying to paint the implications of unbelief in your sort of free will as being so appalling that we must flee into the arms of you strange little God, Chad? Kind of a miserable little tack you are taking, really. We live complex lives, Chad, and have rich experiences regardless of the truth of free will. Also, as I've said before, it may not be possible to have a justified belief of any sort about free will.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:52 pm |
    • ..

      "Since atheists believe..."
      "Since atheists believe..."
      "Since atheists believe...
      Sweeping. Generalizations.
      Atheists DON'T believe in any gods. You are under qualified to speak about what atheists DO believe. And as Akira pointed out,
      1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: “You took on the responsibility of your own free will.”
      2. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
      Can and DOES cover both your views and atheist views quite nicely. You are using YOUR definition of free will completely ignoring that it's not the ONLY one.
      A turnip doesn't have a working analytical mind, Chad. Humans do. How bloody stupis to try and conflate the two as being remotely similar.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
    • The real Tom

      The Vegetable can argue all he wants about what non-believers think, but it won't make a whit of difference. Chard will still be wrong and people will go right on living their lives just as they see fit, regardless of the Chard's input.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
    • Mary

      Chad
      If we are programmed by the universe, how could we have free will? Remember that it isn't atheists who believe in some super-intelligence out there in the universe with the ability to control us. That would be Christians, and other religious, or superst.itious people.

      April 13, 2013 at 12:59 am |
    • JMEF

      Chad
      since deists do not reject the concept of a creator, where do I stand in your purely black and white, yes or no, yin yang, thinking. For someone that pats himself on the back that he answers the all the question, why avoid answering this one?
      No, I do not believe I have a soul that some interfering all powerful god is going to judge and either reward or punish. From your previous posts you seem to relegate such as I to everlasting punishment because of the denial of a soul and the judgement of some cruel immoral god, quite evil on your part.

      April 13, 2013 at 6:27 am |
  14. Jesus freaker

    The Bible is my moral compass. It's a good thing the Bible speaks out against rap ing and pillaging because that's exactly what I'd be doing if it didn't. Oh wait a second, never mind...

    Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him.
    But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

    The LORD said to Moses, "Take the count of the plunder that was taken, both of man and of beast, you and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' houses of the congregation, and divide the plunder into two parts between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation.

    Numbers 31:17-18,25-27

    April 12, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • faith

      Jesus freaker
      The Bible is my moral compass. It's a good thing the Bible speaks out against rap ing and pillaging because that's exactly what I'd be doing if it didn't. Oh wait a second, never mind...

      Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him.
      But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

      The LORD said to Moses, "Take the count of the plunder that was taken, both of man and of beast, you and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' houses of the congregation, and divide the plunder into two parts between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation.

      AMEN and AMEN

      April 12, 2013 at 10:50 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "The Bible is my moral compass."

      Best evidence yet that the bible isn't worth spit.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • Kilto

      @ the real Dick Please, come on now you dumb Atheist. Have you even bothered to read the bible from cover to cover? The bible is very useful. It is God's word.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:56 pm |
    • The real Tom

      I have no idea who your perfect dick is, but the bible is a book that was written by men, not a god.

      Sorry to burst your ignorant bubble, honey.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:58 pm |
    • Kilto

      @Answer Why answer an Idiot?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:01 pm |
    • Kilto

      Oops ...wrong reply

      April 12, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • Answer

      You're the idiot, quite marvelous there. Glad that issue has been cleared up.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:07 pm |
    • Kilto

      It is true that God used men from many walks of life to record His words. Their is truth in his message. The bible is still God's word..

      April 12, 2013 at 11:07 pm |
    • Answer

      Many walks... that's funny.

      The Chinese jeebus sure was a riot. XD

      April 12, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "Wrong reply." Talk about redundant. Every reply you make is wrong, Kilturd.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "The bible is still God's word.."

      If that were true, and you follow it, then God must be as much an azzhole as you are, Kilturd.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • Kilto

      @ the real Dick Not true, you dumb Atheist. I have asked and answered a number of well thought out questions. So, you are just wrong.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "well thought out questions."

      Oh, no doubt the questions are well thought out. Your answers? Not.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:13 pm |
    • Answer

      Well thought out – as in – "my bible is the answer."

      Just fvck off and die. Christard.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
    • Kilto

      @the real Dick Why do you care what I believe in anyway? You don't believe in crap!!!!! yet it requires tremendous faith...give me a break...

      April 12, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
    • Answer

      "You don't believe in crap." <<– crap exists. It comes out of the anus.

      Your jeebus– now that's a joke.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:16 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Believing in crap would trump your silly faith. At least one can prove crap exists.

      Give you a break? Why? You're a jerk. You don't deserve anything of the sort.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
    • Kilto

      Oh powerful Atheists here me now.....What do you believe in? The answer is an outstanding...nothing, yet requires faith to believe there is no God. Please, what an oxymoron?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:18 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "here me now.."

      Really, that's just comedy gold. Try to figure out why, Kilturd.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:21 pm |
    • Answer

      What do you believe in ? –> then off with the priest rant –>> "You believe in nothing."

      ===It's so pathetic because you've already decided that you don't want the words from an atheist. You've swallowed your preachers spite and scorn.

      This is why you fvcktard christians are so desperate.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm |
    • Answer

      To you christards..

      Just fvck off and die.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:23 pm |
    • Kilto

      @ the real Dick I was trying to be funny there....at least it is completely different from my previous posts...oh now was I trying to be sarcastic....

      April 12, 2013 at 11:24 pm |
    • Kilto

      @ Answer I refuse to answer an Idiot.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:24 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Oh, you were funny, all right. Just now the way you intended. You're a laugh riot, you fvcktard.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
    • Answer

      Go fvck off christard.

      I'm not asking you to reply. I'm telling you to just physically die off. Do what you must and join your jeebus. Tonight.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:27 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Kilturd says: I refuse to answer an Idiot.

      I, on the other hand, always answer an idiot. That's why I respond to The Killer of Turds.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:28 pm |
    • Akira

      Jeses freaker was being sarcastic.
      Thought I'd point that out.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:44 am |
  15. Answer

    Religious freaks don't even know where our morals come from.. it's proven.

    The answer is and will always be ->> from ourselves.

    We, humans, have taken in the information with our own eyes, our own ears, through all our senses to relate the facts onto ourselves. We, humans, developed the capacity to distinguish that when we apply too much force against our fellows we end up hurting each others. The emotions that we have developed shaped us to be better.

    We grew up to teach our young. We taught our younger generations. This is how it came to be.

    Through the span of time and failures. You freaks just want to say "I need my god because I don't trust in humans."

    That is why you religious fvcktards are so pathetic.

    April 12, 2013 at 8:38 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      It is work of the spirit hindus, ignorant s, essence of being, not soul desire like hindu dogs, filthy secular s, self centered, as hindus ignorant s observe of their self proclaimed fore father animals. self centered by their spirit.

      Word morals means, La, the limits 360* absolute, and limit of truth absolute is only limit every one and every thing is confined to for existence. Formation of human or animals form is dependent on spirit, also known a dark matter or a program, programmed by programmer of universe, truth absolute GOD, invisible to human eyes, nothing can exist without. Human are formed according to human spirit, program and animals are formed according to their own limited spirit, sharing fundamentals on limited level, but animals lacking human intelligence capacity, animal way of life is govern ed by soul, desire formulated by hindu secular ism, self center ism, for their inability to comprehend equal to human programmed capacity.
      hindu secular ism, criminal self center ism is shared by human with animals, as morals, limit of truth absolute is shared by animals with human. Difference being, human being are gifted with a choice, to be with in limit of truth absolute, or be a hindu secular, filthy self centered out la, such as a hindu baboon, ignorant secular, or god of hindus ignorant Monkey, every hindu secular, ignorant self centered, or may be call a human nothing more than a hindu animal, ignorant secular in form of human.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:49 pm |
    • Answer

      Islam, go boom. We cheer.

      Get your raisins, for sure.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:52 pm |
    • Islam Foundation

      of world's mental constipation

      April 12, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
    • Lycidas

      Answer- The answer is and will always be (our morals come) from ourselves. .....you religious fvcktards are so pathetic.

      Way to show your comp@ssion there.

      April 12, 2013 at 9:27 pm |
    • ..

      Word moral mid-14c., "pertaining to character or temperament" (good or bad), from Old French moral (14c.) and directly from Latin moralis "proper behavior of a person in society," literally "pertaining to manners," coined by Cicero ("De Fato," II.i) to translate Greek ethikos (see ethics) from Latin mos (genitive moris) "one's disposition," in plural, "mores, customs, manners, morals," of uncertain origin. Perhaps sharing a PIE root with English mood.

      Islamabot doesn't know the meaning of "moral".

      Morals are not derived from religion, either.

      April 12, 2013 at 9:39 pm |
    • Answer

      @Lycidas

      Show compas.sion to you religious fvcktards... when you're dead.

      April 12, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
    • Kilto

      I think morals come directly from God that is just my view. Based from the teachings of Jesus we should love one another and etc... I am a sinner and far from perfect but I try to be better whenever I can.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:20 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Kilturd, I see no evidence of your effort to "be better." If anything, you are achieving precisely the opposite.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
    • Kilto

      @the real Dick I try but often then not I fail but I try to do the best I can.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
    • The real Tom

      The "real Dick" is you, Kilto. And your best isn't good enough.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:51 pm |
    • Jesus freaker

      'I think morals come directly from God that is just my view'

      Follow the morality of God, the Bible, and you may find yourself on an episode of MSBNC's Lockup.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:54 pm |
    • Answer

      The idiot religious freaks.. with their "I'm a sinner" bs.

      What are you sinning? Do tell.

      Are you sinning when you're taking a mere shower? When the lather of the soap reaches your genital area? Or is it when you're thinking / about any genital area in particular?

      The obsession of just the private parts are your mandate for this crock of sh!at, sin.

      You freaks love making yourselves to be human s-c-u-m. You have to be s-c-u-m to then find 'salvation'. You're absolutely right that you are s-c-u-m.. that's why the label works on you s-c-u-m who rejoice in being s-c-u-m.

      Congrats on your s-c-u-m status.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:57 pm |
    • Kilto

      @the real Dick Your right! My best isn't good enough ...that is why I need JESUS!!!!!!! and by the way I try my hardest to live a good life so I do my best to stay away from prison. I don't think that has anything to do with my calling.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:58 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Kilturd is a dolt.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:59 pm |
    • Kilto

      Oops...@Answer Why answer a Idiot? You would just prove yourself to be right? Would you not?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Another mouth breather who can't figure out the terribly difficult "you're/your" conundrum. Gee, I wonder if I should pay any heed to such a dumbfvck concerning religious doctrine and the interpretation of the written word?

      Why should I do anything but ridicule some ass who can't even pass a 5th grade grammar test?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:03 pm |
    • Kilto

      @the real Dick I forget Atheists are grammar Nazi's. I'll keep that in mind next time...

      April 12, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • Answer

      If you want to phrase "an idiot"... that is how you phrase it.

      Christard freak.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • The real Tom

      No, you won't. You don't HAVE a mind. The plural of Nazi is Nazis. No apostrophe, idiot.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
    • Kilto

      @the real Dick Grammar Nazis at its finest. Tell me something...Where do you go when you die?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:21 pm |
    • The real Tom

      The same place you do. Prove otherwise.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm |
    • Kilto

      I asked first....but your telling me Atheists believe in spending an eternity in Heaven/Hell? Which place are you preparing to spend an eternity?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:27 pm |
    • The real Tom

      ".but your telling me"

      Still struggling to figure it out, huh?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:29 pm |
    • Answer

      The christards still want to impress others that their fables are true.

      "My heaven is real." <<– laugh.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:31 pm |
    • Answer

      Choose from the following sentences that pleases you christards the most...

      1) "You will burn in hell for not believing in my garbage."

      2) "You will burn forever and forever. Oh fvck you will burn forever and forever."

      3) "I'm glad that you will burn forever and forever."

      4) "I won't burn. I will go to my heaven."

      Let's see how your mind functions. Let us see what comforts your small little mind when you are confronted on your pitiful delusion.

      April 12, 2013 at 11:35 pm |
    • Kilto

      @ the real Dick Apparently, we do not see eye to eye. If you are an Atheist as you claim to be you say you go to the same place as I do. Well, where is that exactly? Are you planning on spending an eternity in Heaven/Hell?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:39 pm |
    • The real Tom

      "we don't see eye to eye." Goshers! You don't say! What was your first clue?

      I don't know why you're ( not "your", you idiot) asking about where I'll spend eternity. Why are you? Why is it any of your (not "you're", you moron) concern? I'm not asking you where you think you'll be. I don't really give a sh!t about you or your eternity. Why do you have such an interest in mine?

      April 12, 2013 at 11:44 pm |
  16. Salero21

    LOL 😀 😀 ROFLMAO

    What I've been saying all along!!

    Apes among all other animals' species and subspecies have been observed and recorded showing affections and compassion even to animals of other species, genus and families. Domestic and farm animals of course do show affections even sympathy towards their masters, owners/farmers. I once saw a cricket trying to revive another cricket that I have step on while doing some work in the crawlspace.

    Animals have of course customs, instincts, practices and rituals, like in mating rituals. However animals do NOT have or practice Religion, because they don't have an innate discernment of Right and Wrong. If well trained some domestic animals and pets appear to show remorse or guilt. However they don't do that on their own. Only Human beings belong, follow, have or practice Religion. I'm not a religious man but I don't have grudges against any religion. It is a characteristic that separates us Humans from the animals.

    When atheists attack in their irrational and ravenous rants any and all religions, or in particular Christianity; what they're doing in fact is attacking the very fiber of Humanity. In doing so these atheists descend to levels lower than that of Wild animals. They [atheists] become as dogs, goats, swine and wolves in their irrationality.

    Just as Jesus said and compare them to! Jesus called Herod a Fox, and said of other men in a Metaphorical way of course that they were such as dogs, goats and swine. Jesus said so!

    April 12, 2013 at 8:05 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Ugh.

      (Sometimes it just takes three letters (and a period) to express your worldview. This is one of those times.)

      April 12, 2013 at 8:19 pm |
    • ..

      Are you retarded? All you have proven is that no religion is necessary for maorals. Of which you seem to have few, if any.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:20 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      It is work of the spirit hindus, ignorant s, essence of being, not soul desire like hindu dogs, filthy secular s, self centered, as hindus ignorant s observe of their self proclaimed fore father animals. self centered by their spirit.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:48 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Every time I think I've observed the stupidest person on the planet, you prove me wrong by surpassing any stupidity I could imagine.

      Congratulations on being a supreme azzhole, Salero!

      April 12, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • Salero21

      Atheists are squealing in the miry mud, barking in the trash and howling! LOL even Science which they "believe" is all on their side cannot saved them from their own doom. Jesus said so!

      April 13, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
  17. Chad

    "where do morals come from"?

    =>well, according to the atheist who claims we have no free will, there is no such thing as "right" and "wrong", we are all just executing as the "universe" programmed us to..
    No choice, no free will, no right, no wrong, just biological machines. The only difference between us and rocks is we are more complicated..

    April 12, 2013 at 7:42 pm |

    • nope

      April 12, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
    • Bob

      Chad(Rachel), how are those workouts going? Still no thigh gap?

      April 12, 2013 at 7:49 pm |
    • ..

      => Rubbish.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:51 pm |
    • Moby Schtick

      We are complex enough to define and find meaningful such concepts, though. No proof that the concepts are rational or real or eternal, but proof that we exist in collections of like-minded animals with similar perceptions.

      That we can imagine interesting concepts is not proof of any gods. Obviously.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • LOL!

      Chad is a classic example of the saying "you can't fix stupid."

      April 12, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Actually, it might be helpful for you to think of the Universe as a sort of program, Chad. We are parts of it and information of certain kinds moves through us and is altered by us changing the state of the Universe in a way that we can and rocks cannot (that may be a way you can distinguish yourself from inanimate matter).

      April 12, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
    • Chad

      "Actually, it might be helpful for you to think of the Universe as a sort of program"....
      =>hm.. yes. like a plant for example.. no consciousness.

      by curious coincidence, Stephen Hawkings agrees with you.

      “Do people have free will? If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behavior automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Is it only multicelled organisms that have free will, or only mammals? We might think that a chimpanzee is exercising free will when it chooses to chomp on a banana, or a cat when it rips up your sofa, but what about the roundworm called Caenorhabditis elegans—a simple creature made of only 959 cells? It probably never thinks, “That was damn tasty bacteria I got to dine on back there,” yet it too has a definite preference in food and will either settle for an unattractive meal or go foraging for something better, depending on recent experience. Is that the exercise of free will?

      Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws.For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion.” — Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand Design

      April 12, 2013 at 8:15 pm |
    • TANK!!!!

      From quote mining to straw men.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
    • Chad

      @ Moby Schtick "We are complex enough to define and find meaningful such concepts, though. No proof that the concepts are rational or real or eternal, but proof that we exist in collections of like-minded animals with similar perceptions."

      =>IOW, ignorance is bliss?

      April 12, 2013 at 8:17 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Yes, Chad, like consciousness – the ability to manipulate symbols, build models of reality of various levels of abstraction and interact with them etc. But you're back on free will. If we (your opponents) are the ones who must steadfastly maintain that the thing you understand as free will does not exist, why are you so preoccupied with it?

      April 12, 2013 at 8:23 pm |
    • ..

      "Ignorance is bliss"
      => is it Chad? You seem pretty happy in your little bubble of ignorance.
      When unable to answer, you say ignorance is bliss. Okay.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:26 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Typical Chad. He somehow thinks that him reasserting his position is the same as actually justifying it, and since no one has been able to get him to be honest on what the reality is, that he is therefore justified in saying that all atheists claim something.
      Truly, truly pathetic. Oh well, the more dishonest Chad is, the more it works against his cause. The saddest thing is that Chad has deluded himself into believing that he's the most logical person here.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:30 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "where do morals come from"?

      => According to Chad and his religion his god is the author of all morality....of course this is nothing more than a claim....and his god is known to act in completely immoral ways....so you will just have to trust him.....and besides.... "might makes right"!!!

      April 12, 2013 at 8:31 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Almost four hours in to this party, but the siren song of "Where do morals come from?", as predicted, indeed proved irresistable for Chad.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:38 pm |
    • ..

      And yet he didn't answer it...

      April 12, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
    • Kilto

      If it was left up to an Atheist we would just be mindless robots then...I've seen a few movies that would hearken such a scenario....no fun indeed.

      April 12, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Kilto

      Yes I'm sure that's what you'd like for all atheists to want. Then again, considering that you have completely refused to read corrections to your asinine positions on what you think atheists believe and don't believe, I'm not surprised.

      April 12, 2013 at 9:57 pm |
    • Kilto

      @Hawaiiguest I've gotten around to reading your comments. I think I have a grasp on what is Atheism now. It evades me that you Atheists require faith to believe the way you do...just me. You have been keen on replying to my questions so in that regard I now salute you. My comments are far from asinine... and yet every time I seem to at least answer or pose a question every now and then... I can't say the same for some of the other Atheists comments I've read...those my friend would be considered asinine.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:04 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Kilto

      The comment regarding atheists wanting everyone to be robots is completely asinine.
      What do you think requires faith when it comes to rejecting the claims that a god exists? You say you think you have a handle on what atheism is, but you have shown that you still haven't really gotten it.
      Does it take faith to not believe all the stories of alien abductions? Bigfoot? Loch Ness?

      April 12, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
    • Chad

      The Kudzu plant is very well known to the residents of the southern US, known as "The vine that ate the south", Its introduction has produced devastating environmental consequences.

      The odd thing though.. I have never heard ANYONE call the Kudzu "immoral".

      Why?

      in the atheist view, there is no difference between a plant and a human.. Both are biological machines, neither has free will. The only difference is in the complexity of the life form..

      “Do people have free will? If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behavior automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Is it only multicelled organisms that have free will, or only mammals? We might think that a chimpanzee is exercising free will when it chooses to chomp on a banana, or a cat when it rips up your sofa, but what about the roundworm called Caenorhabditis elegans—a simple creature made of only 959 cells? It probably never thinks, “That was damn tasty bacteria I got to dine on back there,” yet it too has a definite preference in food and will either settle for an unattractive meal or go foraging for something better, depending on recent experience. Is that the exercise of free will?

      Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets
      . Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws.For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion.”
      — Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand Design

      April 12, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
    • Chad

      The Kudzu plant is very well known to the residents of the southern US, known as "The vine that ate the south", Its introduction has produced devastating environmental consequences.

      The odd thing though.. I have never heard ANYONE call the Kudzu "immoral".

      Why?

      in the atheist view, there is no difference between a plant and a human.. Both are biological machines, neither has free will. The only difference is in the complexity of the life form..

      “Do people have free will? If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behavior automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Is it only multicelled organisms that have free will, or only mammals? We might think that a chimpanzee is exercising free will when it chooses to chomp on a banana, or a cat when it rips up your sofa, but what about the roundworm called Caenorhabditis elegans—a simple creature made of only 959 cells? It probably never thinks, “That was damn tasty bacteria I got to dine on back there,” yet it too has a definite preference in food and will either settle for an unattractive meal or go foraging for something better, depending on recent experience. Is that the exercise of free will?

      Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets
      . Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws.For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion.”
      — Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, The Grand Design

      As an atheist, do you realize what you believe?
      Do you see the utter irrationality of it?
      Do you see how irreconcilable it is with the world you observer around you?

      April 12, 2013 at 10:26 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Chad

      Truly pathetic. Nothing new, the same cut and paste reassertions with absolutely nothing to back it up.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:28 pm |
    • Kilto

      @Hawaiiguest According to what Chad witnessed...."well, according to the atheist who claims we have no free will, there is no such thing as "right" and "wrong", we are all just executing as the "universe" programmed us to..
      No choice, no free will, no right, no wrong, just biological machines. The only difference between us and rocks is we are more complicated.."

      Would that not leave people as mindless robots? The reason I say Atheism requires faith simply because it also requires faith to choose to believe in something else...it really boils down to choice though whether or not to believe in God. For example, you can have faith in your country, your affiliations (Republican/Democrat). You would need a strong conviction to maintain your beliefs at least that is what I think.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      @Kilto

      Faith, when used in the religious sense and in the sense of "faith in country" have two very different scopes and definitions.
      You could say, for instance, that you have faith the chair you're sitting on will not break, but it would not mean the same thing as your faith in your god.

      Chad has been asserting that atheists assert that there is no free will, which is completely untrue. Chad is a highly dishonest person on these blogs, who's credibility is absolutely zero. I would suggest asking atheists what they think about free will individually, because the only thing that every atheist would agree on is that they do not believe in a god.

      I do not think that belief is a choice in any simple sense. You must be convinced of something to believe it (whether for good reasons or bad).
      For instance, you could not make the choice, at this very moment, to believe in Zeus. You could say you do, you could go through all the motions, but to actually believe it would require you to be convinced of it.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:51 pm |
    • Chad

      @hawaii “Chad has been asserting that atheists assert that there is no free will, which is completely untrue”

      =>I find many atheists treatise on the lack of free will.. I only found one that claims an atheist can actually believe in free will (Richard Dawkins). Following is an excellent discussion of the hypocrisy of that position.

      Can an Atheist Believe in Free Will? Why isn't Dawkins as tough on himself as he is on believers?
      In response to a questioner, Dawkins concedes that if you take a deterministic or mechanistic view of the universe, it seems absurd to think we have free will and that we can go around blaming criminals and praising distinguished authors. The whole idea of blame and praise seems to go out the window. It's like Basil Fawlty blaming his car for not running properly. And since there's likely no one alive who takes a more mechanistic view of human behavior than Dawkins, he should stop going around affirming free will and blaming and praising people. But when asked why he doesn't stop, he says first, that it seems to us that have free will and second, that life would be intolerable if we believed otherwise. In another post, I've challenged the latter point, but that's not the concern here. Let's grant Dawkins those claims. Dawkins concludes that "this is an inconsistency we have to live with" and so we may continue to believe in free will and moral responsibility, and blame and praise people accordingly. (In his defense, he does seem slightly uncomfortable about the tension.)
      … A questioner asks him why he doesn't think that belief in God is a personal choice, given that some people find great comfort in that belief. Dawkins replies: Look, that's fine if some people find comfort believing in God, but that doesn't mean that belief is true! He says: "I'm afraid that something intolerable may still be true. That's just tough."
      Now wait a minute! Didn't Dawkins just say that it's fine for us to go on believing in free will and acting accordingly because life would be intolerable otherwise? By that same reasoning, people who would find life intolerable without belief in God are justified in retaining it. What's sauce for free will goose should be sauce for the God gander, right? Or, on the flip side, why isn't it "just tough" for Dawkins that he would find life without free will intolerable? Why shouldn't he stop affirming it anyway? This seems like a deep inconsistency.
      Now granted, Dawkins doesn't find life without God intolerable, nor does it seem to him that God exists. So Dawkins himself wouldn't be justified in believing in God by his own standards. But someone who did meet those conditions-and there are certainly plenty of those people-would seem to be justified in that belief.. After all, I'm someone who doesn't find life without free will intolerable. I see Dawkins on free will the same way he sees people who couldn't bear it if there were no God or afterlife. I don't think he's thought the implications through clearly. In any case, to resolve this consistency, it seems Dawkins has to either (a) think that it's justified for people to believe things that make life tolerable, or (b) repudiate his own belief in free will and moral responsibility as firmly as he thinks that others should repudiate belief in God. I don't see any other way out.

      Published on January 22, 2009 by Tamler Sommers, Ph.D. in Experiments in Philosophy

      April 12, 2013 at 11:08 pm |
    • Mary

      Chad
      If omniscient, miracle-working Christian God exists we have no free will, but we do (or it appears that we do) if he doesn't exist. Does that make it clear?

      April 13, 2013 at 1:05 am |
    • Akira

      Why does Chad constantly use Dawkins and Hawking as the authority to which he believes every atheist must ascribe to?
      Does he not realize that many atheists have never heard of those men? Or if they have, disagree with their views?
      I don't think any one person owns atheism, if one gets my gist...

      April 13, 2013 at 2:01 am |
    • JMEF-- Quote Mining

      Another flurry of cut and paste "truths" from our great deceiver Chad, so original again and again and the same old arguments, boring. Dumping all atheists into one narrow definition would be equivalent to saying all Christians are Jehovah Witnesses or United Pentecostal Church members, which one do you belong to Chad, two can play that game,.

      April 13, 2013 at 6:40 am |
    • Bob

      Chad(Rachel), you fat deluded fool, speaking of "machines", it's high time you got back on that workout machine and got some exercise for something other than your fingers. Rachel will never have a positive thigh gap the way you are going.

      April 13, 2013 at 10:30 am |
  18. Russ

    1) DeWaal is yet another example of an acutely intelligent scientist venturing into philosophical realms where he has little or no training (see Stephen Hawking's repeated refutations by philosophers after his last book's attempt to enter that field).

    2) if you read the whole article, he wants to prove morality preceded religion (an openly announced bias at the outset) – which fails to understand the primary contention of religion... namely that it was *revealed.* in other words, he wants to pin down a time when religion started (as though that was the supposed inception of morality) and then prove morality came earlier. he thinks in so doing he will debunk religion on its own terms, but that fails to understand religious claims. the problem is: almost all religions are claiming there is an earlier source for morality (god/divine/geist/etc.) that is not simply a prior event IN time, but which stands outside the time-space continuum entirely.

    again, this is metaphysics, not physics. trying to explain away metaphysics with physics is failing to comprehend the basic distinction between the two disciplines. this article is scientism, not science.

    April 12, 2013 at 6:24 pm |
    • Gnat Barry

      Russ, religion is just for stupid folk. The smarter humans left it behind ages ago.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:31 pm |
    • Chuckles

      @Russ

      1. Using scientific method to prove something like "does morality exist apart from religion" is entirely possible and not just philisophical.

      2. He had to start somewhere. There's bias if his hypothesis was either "morality existed before religoin" or "morality exists becaues of religion". Either sound bias but since they are hypothesis and is search was to prove it either right or wrong, there's no inherent bias in it. The bias would have been if Frans De Waal had discounted any religious implications or specifically designed experiments in order to prove his hypotheis right without allowing for the alternate hypothesis to be correct.

      You're just angry because he proved that morality exists apart from religion and specifically christianty

      Haters gonna hate

      April 12, 2013 at 6:31 pm |
    • Darlene

      That makes sense, Russ. He shouldn't be trying to combine physics with "hokus pokus" physics.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:31 pm |
    • Conjunctive Threshold

      Russ, trying to defend metaphysics as unassailable from those who happen to be from other disciplines is pathetic, simpleminded, and wrongheaded. Some of our greatest advances have come from thinkers willing to work across domains and silly fiefdoms, and well, when logic works, it works, regardless of the subject matter at hand.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:35 pm |
    • Tony

      Russ, pull that metaphysical stuck-up stick out of your aft end.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
    • The real Tom

      Hilarious. Russ thinks that only a select few are qualified to comment on his domain.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:39 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      Physics is nothing more than a medium to prove metaphysics, essence of being, metaphysics is quantified, and physics has no properties of its own, but a path to reach ultimate truthfulness of a metaphysics.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:03 pm |
    • lol??

      The existence of morality in man as far as law and a conscience is concerned,

      "Rom 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)"

      April 12, 2013 at 7:15 pm |
    • lol??

      But don't get too excited. If you have EVER had a guilty conscience, you're toast. Payment must be made.

      "Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

      April 12, 2013 at 7:20 pm |
    • Billy

      Belieber Paul and his gift for gab is not any kind of decent key to unlock the mysteries of creation, lol??

      April 12, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • lol??

      You already have Your answers, Billy. The topic of morals was raised, if you hadn't noticed.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      I've noticed that philosophers are seldom called upon to explain things or solve problems. Their work these days is mainly for consumption by other philosophers. I think that's a pity.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:10 pm |
    • Saraswati

      De Waal is a primatologist writing about primate behavior...how exactly is that not qualified? Morality can be handled from biological, psychological, anthropological, philosophical and other positions and all are valid. Show me the fleet of people working on the issues with at least 4 or 5 PhDs covering every possible angle and I might agree to raise the bar, but for now I'd argue that there are a number of field all of which can make valid contributions.

      April 12, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
    • Russ

      1) science presupposes metaphysics – it cannot speak to it.

      biology can't even define life (any biology textbook, p.1) – how can you expect science to diagnose whether that life is doing good or bad? science might be able to describe with incredible precision how synapses fire & the effects on the brain of ethical dilemmas, but it cannot – by definition – speak to what it presupposes. morality is inherently a separate arena.

      2) many well trained scientists who are brilliant in their particular field continually make this rather elementary error.

      philosophically speaking, the mistake is rather basic. you took something as a given – so you can't now attempt to undermine it in others. you yourself presupposed it – it's self-refuting.

      even though these PhDs (as one person demanded above) may have excellent training in one area, when they venture outside their discipline, they often are unaware of basic philosophical pitfalls. don't take it from me, simply google the critical responses to Stephen Hawking's "Grand Design" – theist & atheist alike panned his poor philosophical self-understanding. here, even just check wikipedia for a summary...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Design_(book)#Critical_reactions

      you don't have to agree with my religion to recognize something self-refuting.

      3) is there anything you would say is always wrong? racism? pedophilia? why? on what basis?

      there is an inherent challenge for such views of a scientific morality: who defines good & evil? eugenics, hedonism, etc. on what basis does one declare racism inherently wrong? can you? does the science back you? or are we appealing to something beyond science? is racism always wrong or isn't it?

      anyone read "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley? anyone watched "Gattaca"? come on, people. this is not science fiction. google Peter Singer – the chair of ethics at Princeton. he claims anyone under the age of 2 and anyone who has outlived their societal usefulness can rightly be terminated.

      this is imperative. even though CNN seems lackadaisical about speaking to it, just look up Kermit Gosnell. that trial is currently underway in Philadelphia. here's a doctor who has killed 1000s of children – i'm not even talking about abortions, but POST-BIRTH. why isn't this stuff getting more media coverage? is it wrong, or is it just science?

      this is not philosophy in a vacuum. it's happening now.

      April 12, 2013 at 10:14 pm |
    • Gary

      More of the usual lengthy claptrap from Russco. Anyone can criticize your pathetic attempts at metaphysics, Russ, and we will. Free will arguments don't work in favor of your specific BOMITS, so get over that oldie and wrongie, stupid.

      April 13, 2013 at 10:33 am |
    • Russ

      @ Gary: pejorative labels are not a substi.tute for a substantive argument.

      April 13, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • Gary

      More of the usual lengthy claptrap from Russco. Anyone can criticize your pathetic attempts at metaphysics, Russ, and we will. Free will arguments don't work in favor of your specific BOMITS, so get over that oldie and wrongie, stupid.

      April 13, 2013 at 10:23 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Gary: for lack of substance, repeti.tion is not a substi.tute either.

      April 14, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
  19. ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

    Word morals means, La, the limits 360* absolute, and limit of truth absolute is only limit every one and every thing is confined to for existence. Formation of human or animals form is dependent on spirit, also known a dark matter or a program, programmed by programmer of universe, truth absolute GOD, invisible to human eyes, nothing can exist without. Human are formed according to human spirit, program and animals are formed according to their own limited spirit, sharing fundamentals on limited level, but animals lacking human intelligence capacity, animal way of life is govern ed by soul, desire formulated by hindu secular ism, self center ism, for their inability to comprehend equal to human programmed capacity.
    hindu secular ism, criminal self center ism is shared by human with animals, as morals, limit of truth absolute is shared by animals with human. Difference being, human being are gifted with a choice, to be with in limit of truth absolute, or be a hindu secular, filthy self centered out la, such as a hindu baboon, ignorant secular, or god of hindus ignorant Monkey, every hindu secular, ignorant self centered, or may be call a human nothing more than a hindu animal, ignorant secular in form of human.

    April 12, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • sam

      Fake wannabe muslim troll – it's time for your meds.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:11 pm |
    • ..

      Word moron,
      1910, medical Latin, from Greek (Attic) moron, neuter of moros "foolish, dull, sluggish, stupid," probably cognate with Sanskrit murah "idiotic." Latin morus "foolish" is a loan-word from Greek. Adopted by the American Association for the Study of the Feeble-minded with a technical definition "adult with a mental age between 8 and 12;" used as an insult since 1922 and subsequently dropped from technical use. Linnæus had introduced morisis "idiocy."

      Islamabot is a moron.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:20 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      Seemss like a hindu secular ignorant self centered have escaped from a zoo, you must be a graduate of a hindu temple, dog training, secular self center located in hindered gutter of hindu secular ism dog ism by faith called india.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
    • ..

      Word idiot, early 14c., "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning;" also in Middle English "simple man, uneducated person, layman" (late 14c.), from Old French idiote "uneducated or ignorant person" (12c.), from Latin idiota "ordinary person, layman; outsider," in Late Latin "uneducated or ignorant person," from Greek idiotes "layman, person lacking professional skill" (opposed to writer, soldier, skilled workman), literally "private person (as opposed to one taking part in public affairs)," used patronizingly for "ignorant person," from idios "one's own"

      Islamabot is an idiot.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
    • ISLAM FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN CONSTI TUTION

      bottom line, a hindu idiot, stupid self centered, foundation of hinduism, denial of truth absolute, not of human, but of hindu donkeys, ignorant secular animals.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:38 pm |
    • ..

      Word delusion, "act of misleading someone," early 15c.; as a form of mental derangement, 1550s, from Latin delusionem (nominative delusio) "a deceiving," noun of action from past participle stem of deludere (see delude).

      Islamabot has the delusion that everyone not him is a Hindu.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
  20. lol??

    The more existential question is why are morals returning to the beginning, mimicking the Cain story? The INTELLIGENTSIA must be afraid of that question. God already answered it.

    "Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

    April 12, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
    • ..

      Morals didn't come from your God. Many people have never even *heard* of the God of Abraham...you severely need to get that through your thick skull and stop acting as if your Bible is the moral authority. It isn't.
      If you derive your morals from it, fine. That's NOT where the majority of the world, the 5 billion who aren't Christian, derived theirs from.

      April 12, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
    • Science

      This is a perfect one for you lol??.........................see date below.

      Unusual Anal Fin Offers New Insight Into Evolution

      Apr. 10, 2013 — An unusual fossil fish that has fins behind its anus

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130410082201.htm

      April 12, 2013 at 6:07 pm |
    • lol??

      They've heard of Jesus and can search Him out if they care, or aren't brutally stopped by the know it all mob.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
    • ..

      BILLIONS of people have never heard of Jesus. You are, without a doubt, clueless.
      Search out what they've never heard of? Moron.
      Your world is tiny. Reality isn't. Get out more, doofus.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:12 pm |
    • lol??

      "Unengaged Unreached People Group (UUPG): According to Finishing the Task, there are 418 unengaged, unreached people groups with populations over 40,000, together numbering over 130 million souls that are still beyond the reach of the Gospel. These 412 are perhaps the neediest of the needy as they are unengaged, which means that no church, no missionary, no mission agency...no one has yet taken responsibility to tell them about Jesus Christ."

      When the heat is on and people get hungry the gospel will likely spread to these.

      April 12, 2013 at 6:43 pm |
    • ..

      When people don't know they're hungry, they aren't starving. When people are happy and healthy, and leading a perfectly normal, moral life, missionaries "reaching" out to destroy that isn't loving...it's sadistic. Missionaries has killed millions of indigenous people with their "message". Leave them the hell alone.

      April 12, 2013 at 7:17 pm |
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