By John Blake, CNN
(CNN) - When Peter Sprigg speaks publicly about his opposition to homosexuality, something odd often happens.
During his speeches, people raise their hands to challenge his assertions that the Bible condemns homosexuality, but no Christians speak out to defend him.
“But after it is over, they will come over to talk to me and whisper in my ear, ‘I agree with everything you said,’" says Sprigg, a spokesman for The Family Research Council, a powerful, conservative Christian lobbying group.
We’ve heard of the “down-low” gay person who keeps his or her sexual identity secret for fear of public scorn. But Sprigg and other evangelicals say changing attitudes toward homosexuality have created a new victim: closeted Christians who believe the Bible condemns homosexuality but will not say so publicly for fear of being labeled a hateful bigot.
As proof, Sprigg points to the backlash that ESPN commentator Chris Broussard sparked recently. Broussard was called a bigot and a purveyor of hate speech when he said an NBA player who had come out as gay was living in “open rebellion to God.” Broussard said the player, Jason Collins, was “living in unrepentant sin” because the Bible condemns homosexuality.
“In the current culture, it takes more courage for someone like Chris Broussard to speak out than for someone like Jason Collins to come out,” says Sprigg, a former pastor. “The media will hail someone who comes out of the closet as gay, but someone who simply expresses their personal religious views about homosexual conduct is attacked.”
When is disagreement hate?
Bryan Litfin, a theology professor at Moody Bible Institute in Illinois, says Christians should be able to publicly say that God designed sex to take place within a marriage between a man and a woman.
“That isn’t so outrageous,” Litfin says. “Nobody is expressing hate toward homosexuals by saying that. Since when is disagreement the same as hate?”
But quoting the Bible doesn't inoculate anyone from becoming a bigot or hater, some scholars say. There's a point at which a Christian's opposition to homosexuality can become bigotry, and even hate speech, they say.
Crossing such a line has happened many times in history.
A literal reading of the Bible was used to justify all sorts of hatred: slavery, the subjugation of women and anti-Semitism, scholars and pastors say.
“Truly damaging speech cannot be excused just because it expresses genuine religious belief,” says Mark D. Jordan, author of “Recruiting Young Love: How Christians Talk about Homosexuality.”
“Some religious beliefs, sincerely held, are detestable. They cannot be spoken without disrupting social peace,” says Jordan, a professor at the John Danforth Center on Religion & Politics at Washington University in St. Louis.
The point where religious speech becomes hate speech is difficult to define, though, scholars and activists say.
The Southern Poverty Law Center in Alabama is a nonprofit civil rights group that combats and monitors hate groups. Three years ago, it designated the Family Research Council, the group that Sprigg represents, as a hate group - a characterization the group stridently rejects.
Mark Potok, a center spokesman, says there’s no shared definition of what constitutes hate speech.
“There is no legal meaning. It’s just a phrase,” Potok says. “Hate speech is in the ear of the beholder.”
'One of the most hated minorities?'
Intolerance may be difficult to define, but some evangelicals say they have become victims of intolerance because of their reverence for the Bible.
The conservative media culture is filled with stories about evangelicals being labeled as “extremists” for their belief that homosexuality is a sin.
Their sense of persecution goes beyond their stance on homosexuality. There are stories circulating of evangelical students being suspended for opposing homosexuality, a teacher fired for giving a Bible to a curious student, and the rise of anti-Christian bigotry.
A blogger at The American Dream asked in one essay:
“Are evangelical Christians rapidly becoming one of the most hated minorities in America?”
The reluctance of evangelicals to speak out against homosexuality is often cited as proof they are being forced into the closet.
Joe Carter, editor for The Gospel Coalition, an online evangelical magazine, wrote a blog post entitled “Debatable: Is the Christian Church a ‘Hate Group’?" He warned that young people will abandon “orthodox” Christian churches that teach that homosexuality is a sin for fear of being called haters.
“Faux civility, embarrassment, prudishness and a fear of expressing an unpopular opinion has caused many Christians to refrain from explaining how homosexual conduct destroys lives,” Carter wrote.
Some Christians fear that opposing homosexuality could cause them to lose their jobs and “haunt them forever,” Carter says.
“It’s easier to just go along,” says Carter, who is also author of “How to Argue Like Jesus.” “You don’t want to be lumped in with the bigots. That’s a powerful word."
Edward Johnson, a communication professor at Campbell University in North Carolina, says we are now living in a "postmodern" era where everything is relative and there is no universally accepted truth. It's an environment in which anyone who says "this is right" and "that is wrong" is labeled intolerant, he says.
There was a time when a person could publicly say homosexuality was wrong and people could consider the statement without anger, he says. Today, people have reverted to an intellectual tribalism where they are only willing to consider the perspective of their own tribe.
“They are incapable of comprehending that someone may have a view different than theirs,” Johnson says. “For them anyone who dares to question the dogma of the tribe can only be doing so out of hatred.”
Sprigg, from the Family Research Council, says his condemnation of homosexual conduct does not spring from intolerance but a desire to protect gays from harmful conduct, he says.
Sprigg, a senior fellow for policy studies at the council, wrote in a council pamphlet that homosexual men are more likely to engage in child sexual abuse than are straight men. He also wrote that gay men are also afflicted with a higher rate of sexually transmitted diseases and mental illness as well.
Sprigg says he does not believe homosexuality is a choice and that “personal testimonies" and "clinical experience” show that some people “can and do change from gay to straight.”
“Maybe we need to do a better job of showing that we are motivated by Christian love,” Sprigg says. “Love is wanting the best for someone, and acting to bring that about.”
'That's a lie'
Potok, from the Southern Poverty Law Center, has little use for the love Sprigg talks about.
He calls it hatred, and his voice rose in anger when he talked about the claims by Sprigg and other Christian groups that gay men are more predisposed to molest children and that homosexual behavior is inherently harmful.
He says the Southern Poverty Law Center didn’t designate the Family Research Group a hate group because they view homosexuality as a sin or oppose same-sex marriage, Potok says. There are plenty of Christian groups who hold those beliefs but are not hate groups, he says.
A group becomes a hate group when it attacks and maligns an entire class of people for their “immutable characteristics,” Potok says. The Family Research Council spreads known falsehoods about gays and lesbians, he says, such as the contention that gay men are predisposed to abuse children.
“That’s a lie,” Potok says. “These guys are engaging in straight-up defamation of a very large group of people. There are not many things much worse than you can say in America about somebody than they are a child molester.”
Potok scoffed at Spriggs’ claim that the council and other evangelical anti-gay groups are victims of intolerance.
“That’s whining on the part of people who spend their days and nights attacking gay people and then some people criticize them and they don’t like it,” he says. “That’s pathetic. It reminds me of slave owners complaining that people are saying ugly things about them.”
What the Bible says
What about the popular evangelical claim, “We don’t hate the sinner, just the sin” – is that seen as intolerance or hate speech when it comes to homosexuality?
There are those who say you can’t hate the sin and love the sinner because being gay or lesbian is defined by one’s sexual behavior; it’s who someone is.
“Most people who identify as gay and lesbian would say that this is not an action I’m choosing to do; this is who I am,” says Timothy Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible: The Unexpected History of an Accidental Book.”
Beal, a religion professor at Case Western University in Ohio, says it should be difficult for any Christian to unequivocally declare that the Bible opposes homosexuality because the Bible doesn’t take a single position on the topic. It's an assertion that many scholars and mainline Protestant pastors would agree with.
Some people cite Old Testament scriptures as condemning homosexuality, such as Leviticus 18:22 - “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.” But other Christians counter by saying they are not bound by the Old Testament.
There are those who also cite New Testament scriptures like Romans 1:26-27 - “… Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men. …”
Beal, however, says Jesus said little about sex. And the Apostle Paul, who wrote Romans, was probably referring to male prostitution and men having sexual relations with boys, a practice in the Greco-Roman world.
“Paul does not understand genetics and sexual orientation the way we understand it now as something much more than a choice,” says Beal.
Some evangelicals say Christians can’t change their view of biblical truth just because times change. But some scholars reply:
Sure you can. Christians do it all the time.
Denying a woman’s ability to preach in church was justified by scriptures like 1 Timothy 2:11-12 - “… I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” But many churches have abandoned that teaching - and some scholars say a woman preached the first Christian sermon, when Mary Magdalene proclaimed that Jesus had risen.
Slaveholders in 19th century America justified slavery through a literal reading of the Bible, quoting Titus 2:9-10 – “Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything. …” And anti-Semitism was justified by the claims that Jews killed Jesus, such as Matthew 27: 25-26 - “Let his blood be on us and on our children.”
Litfin, from Moody Bible Institute, acknowledged that the Bible once sanctioned slavery, but he said that practice was a “cultural expression” that changed over time. Evangelicals who oppose same-sex marriage by citing the Bible are on more solid ground, he says.
“Marriage is a universal and timeless institution that God set up for maximum human flourishing. He set it up in the first book of the Bible with the story of Adam and Eve. It is consistent throughout the whole Bible. … Marriage is in a different category than those cultural things.”
Public jousts over the Bible's stance on homosexuality rarely change people’s minds. What changes is when people get to know gay and lesbian people as friends and hear their story, says Beal, author of “The Rise and Fall of the Bible.”
“If you open up to that other person genuinely, you basically come to a point where you have to sacrifice them to your ideology or crack open your ideology to make a hospitable place for them,” Beal says.
One Christian pastor who is gay says the uproar over the ESPN commentator’s comments can actually be good, because debates help settle moral disputes.
“What appears to us as antiquated and prejudicial now was once a disputed issue that required debate,” says the Rev. Richard McCarty, a minister in the United Church of Christ and a religious studies professor at Mercyhurst University in Pennsylvania.
Until the debate over homosexuality is settled - if it ever is - there may be plenty of evangelical Christians who feel as if they are now being forced to stay in the closet.
Carter, the evangelical blogger, says he foresees a day when any church that preaches against homosexuality will be marginalized. Just as many churches now accept divorce, they will accept sexual practices once considered sinful.
“It’s getting to the point,” he says, “where churches are not going to say that any sexual activity is wrong.”
There is a difference between being a hated minority and being an odious minority.
Obnoxious evangelicals who do not mind their own business and who do not respect even the most basic tenets of Christianity are not in a position to whine when someone challenges their reactionary political agenda.
Like WASP said HAPPY DAYS !
Jesus wept' or tears of joy? Faithful react to gay marriage rulings
By Daniel Burke, CNN
Well, folks, it has come down to a once dominant and fearful group that now sees itself as a hated minority. They fear an entire way of life, built by doctrine and dogma, is disappearing. It would help their cause if they accepted that the progress and evolution of social ideas is basic and natural in democratic societies. We here in the US had a breakthrough that the right has been reacting and over reacting to since the late sixties-secularism, combined with minority and womens' rights. Sure, there are other totalist cultures in the world, ie, Iran and NK, tht are more repressive toward religious minorities, and we should all know that. Here in the USA, though, I see giant mega churches, and religion is stilled filtered into our lives as a control mechanism. More peop;e don't buy the control mechanism because they've read history, gone to college, or learned another way that leads to peace of the soul. While most of the Christians I meet are sweet people, outwardly, I know that their conceptual frameworks are from another, earlier century, a kind of stubborn delusionalism born of nationalism, fear, and tradition. History and science have simply opened the way to a much more complex truth concerning who we are and what we are as humans. The old myths just don't do.
By the way there is no soul.........the sole is omn bottom of shoe .
To Christians or any and religions. When you use your religion or your God to Spew your hatred towards people you disagree with, then you will Get Back exactly what you Spew
occurs 4 times in 4 verses in the KJV "
Calling the free exercise of one's faith "spewing" and "hatred" is precisely part of the problem. People are stating their beliefs. No one has stopped anyone else's behavior. There is no hate, or at least there should not be, and the great majority of Christians beleive that way. We have many beleifs that non-believers disagree with. The impression I get is that those who don't believe ought to be able to force those who do believe to shut up. That won't happen. Nor should it.
No divine designer needed.................so lol??............your KJV.............is BULLSH-IT
Video animation: RNA interference
Every person has a right to their beliefs, no matter how unfounded. What they don't have is the right to do is force their version of morality on others. Evangelicals love to pass judgement on anybody who does not agree with their beliefs and are offended when others openly disagree with them. They see themselves as soldiers for God, fighting a war against the unbelievers and use this to justify otherwise immoral behavior. When one believes that God is the final judge of their actions on earth, they feel unrestrained to do anything it takes to "save" the souls for their God. Most religions think this way and is the reason for so much violence, hatred and war in this world. We can all be good without a god.
The Beast church does it all the time. You didn't gain anything by fighting the kings and rebuilding.
@huguenot: Come on! No hate... It's a win-win! They get their sanctimonious butts raptured – something they've wanted for over 2000 years – and society is rid of them... Win-Win!
You didn't buy into the rapture I hope?? Perchance somebody did a scribal error and meant rupture?
See you still playing in the sand BOX lol??
The fact...............the earth is to old ...........time to EVOLVE !..................Creationists...........ID believers and christians !
Ancient Earth Crust Stored in Deep Mantle
Apr. 24, 2013 — Scientists have long believed that lava erupted from certain oceanic volcanoes contains materials from the early Earth's crust. But decisive evidence for this phenomenon has proven elusive. New research from a team including Carnegie's Erik Hauri demonstrates that oceanic volcanic rocks contain samples of recycled crust dating back to the Archean era 2.5 billion years ago. Their work is published in Nature.
Maybe they should not have created the wedge !!!
The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Insti-tute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Insti-tute manifesto known as the Wedge Docu-ment, which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to defeat materialism, naturalism, evolution, and "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic
Dover Trial Transcripts............................................. FACTS.
Below are the complete transcripts from the Dover Trial. Thanks to our friends at the National Center for Science Education for helping us fill in the missing transcripts.
Education works for children
9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the s.exually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have se.x with men a 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
the entire point of salvation is the potential freedom from sin. No one is excluded from approaching Christ as they are. But if you do not repent, if you pick a sin that you refuse to repent from , then is Christ your master? Or do serve your fallen flesh?
Would you stand in front of Christ and gripe because you arent allowed to have anal se.x?
That will NEVER happen. Do you get it? you have the choice to repent.
2 Chronicles 7:14 – If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
Luke 13:3 – I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 17:30 – And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 3:19 – Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
1 John 1:9 – If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Revelation 2:5 – Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Acts 2:38 – Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Oh, come on Austin, sure they will – they just have to accept jesus as their Saviour, and they go to heaven, regardless of what they did on earth. Hitler (a good Catholic boy) – I'm sure he's up there at the right hand of God. Before he blew his brains out I'm sure he said, God, forgive me, I love you jesus, you are my saviour. Bam!
Quite the trick.
We both know there is no rational reason to believe any of that. It's just a fairytale you've been told to give you an incentive to behave in ways that benefit society over your own self interest.
Austin, the whole point of "salvation" is to make you believe you will be rewarded for putting others and society above your own self interest.
Wow Austin do you have any ?
Where do morals come from?.............the answer is not the bible read and find out !
By Kelly Murray, CNN
Gravity is not up for debate ! ............E = mc2..........(U–Pb).................two math formulas..........that do not lie or sin !!!...
Hey James Madison................religion has none it looks like.............with the comments on this blog.
The Big question is ETHICS ! does religion have any ?
The Ethics of Resurrecting Extinct Species
Apr. 8, 2013 — At some point, scientists may be able to bring back extinct animals, and perhaps early humans, raising questions of ethics and environmental disruption.
Nothing more convincing than a cut and paste, Austin
i already have freedom from sin
Austin, you are such a lame, fvcking hypocrite. If the real issue for you is that ANY s3x outside marriage is wrong, then allow gays to marry. Problem solved.
Except you know damn well that isn't the issue for you fundies at all.
Update:.............for you Ausdtin
The god damn sign in picture above is wrong !
That red devil with the funky horns...........and his partner the fairy in the sky.........did NOT create US !
The ORIGIN story is bullsh-it...............so is the bible............... nasty !
From Soup to Cells—the Origin of Life
Scientists have unearthed the first direct signs of cheesemaking, at a site in Poland that dates back 7,500 years.
Easy to do !
For all creationists and ID believers...............IT only takes minutes to figure IT out. No fairy in the sky needed !
New Device Can Extract Human DNA With Full Genetic Data in Minutes
May 6, 2013 — Take a swab of saliva from your mouth and within minutes your DNA could be ready for analysis and genome sequencing with the help of a new device.
Foot note............ethics + morals = really tough on religion !
Facts work best for teaching children !
Evolution wins hands down ..........time for god(s) to get the HELL out of the way................so humanity can evolve !
Dinosaur Egg Study Supports Evolutionary Link Between Birds and Dinosaurs: How Troodon Likely Hatched Its Young
Oops do not forget about the chondrites !
Was the bible around back then ?
Human Y Chromosome Much Older Than Previously Thought
Mar. 4, 2013 — The discovery and analysis of an extremely rare African American Y chromosome pushes back the time of the most recent common ancestor for the Y chromosome lineage tree to 338,000 years ago. This time predates the age of the oldest known anatomically modern human fossils.
No god(s) needed or required to graduate from public schools in the US
Remember : Adam had to POKE himself hard with his OWN BONE to create Eve.
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Where are the ethics and morals....................with a talking snake in the grass is the question ?
Do you have one........Austin........a brain that is ?..............clue NO divine creator needed.
Ötzi the Iceman's Dark Secrets: Protein Investigation Supports Brain Injury Theory
June 10, 2013 — After decoding the Iceman's genetic make-up, a research team from the European Academy of Bolzano/Bozen (EURAC), Saarland University, Kiel University and other partners has now made another major breakthrough in mummy research: using just a pinhead-sized sample of brain tissue from the world-famous glacier corpse,
the team was able to extract and analyse proteins to further support the theory that Ötzi suffered some form of brain damage in the final moments of his life.
The sooner the hate-filled, narrow-minded, ignorant WASPs are a dwindling and ineffective, useless minority the better. They offer nothing to society; they hold society back; and they in fact harm society. If they were every last one raptured away today, our nation and indeed the world would be a much better place.
The suicide rate is UP.
@LOL?? – I don't want *anyone* to commit suicide. Rapturization, though, would make THEM happy and would make the world happy...
@huguenot: Come on, now! No hate... It's a win-win! They get their sanctimonious butts raptured – something they've wanted for over 2000 years – and society is rid of them... Win-Win!
I think a good way to identify a bigot is if you replace the group they are talking about with another group that has experienced discrimination in the past. If the statement would be identified as bigotry against that group, it is bigotry against this group.
MarylandBill, I hate pathological liars. If we replace "pathological liars" with "Jews" the result sounds like bigotry, but I don't think hating liars makes me a bigot.
To my way of thinking bigotry is hating people because of who they are even when the defining trait doesn't hurt anyone.
*Stands and applauds*
Okay, Free Will: Again and again, I've heard the argument that when bad people do horrible things, God does not interfere, because that would interfere with that person's free will. Why, then, would God drown everyone in the world except for those on Noah's Ark, because they were evil.. Why did God interfere with their free will then, but he won't interfere now?
christ-tards can't understand that if they have an omniscient "god" , then free will cannot exist. Simple logic escapes them. It shines a spotlight on the flaws of their faith, and their "god" in general.
You serve in your capacity. Some make firewood, chips off ye ol' block, so to speak.
Why is it that you pose a simple question i.e. when did you choose to be straight, or why did God interfere with people's free will when he caused the Flood, and the silence from Christians is deafening. Time, perhaps, to start to rethink the BS you've been taught?
The flood was for genetic cleansing. Otherwise there would be no salvation for anyone.
@ lol – nice POE attempt.
Religions are basically conspiracy theories. With no evidence for anything they believe a religion's followers put forth one or more unprovable theories involving some kind of god figure. When people point to seeming inconsistencies in their believes the believers postulate more theories — also without evidence — to explain them.
Christians claim God answers prayer, and then they immediately set about rationalizing why there is no evidence whatsoever that any prayer offered in the history of the world has ever been "answered."
Lol?? wrote, "The flood was for genetic cleansing. Otherwise there would be no salvation for anyone."
If this was true we would see it in the DNA and mtDNA of every species. We don't. We don't in ANY species.
You have had this explained to you numerous times. This shows that you are a liar.
Of course God answers prayer, and most of the time it's "You're asking for WHAT!!!???"
Wonk, you're confusing me with somebody else.
lol?? is lost in space where ever lol?? goes on this forum !
If only we could figure out how to get all the human lemmings to jump off a cliff and drown.
Xtians as cat food, some of those old timey traditions should be brought back.
Simon ... let's put it on pay-per-view ... we'll make more than Warren Buffett!!!
Historically this is more likely to happen in small groups who use poison instead of jumping off a cliff.
To the christians: you get what you give. If your an run of the mill (exoteric) Christian as most are, who also hates on gays minorities then its going to be a sad reality always.
Most Christians aren't speaking up to defend these people, because they know what they're preaching is crap. They may agree with them secretly, but there is no law keeping them from standing right at his side. They are making that choice on their own.
In fairness, I don't think all that many Christians agree with these people. A certain percentage, but that's all.
That being said: No one can persecute you in this country for standing up for what you believe in. SO, if you are choosing not to say what you truly believe because you are too embarrassed, then perhaps you should examine what you are secretly defending a little more closely.
defending what people??
"“But after it is over, they will come over to talk to me and whisper in my ear, ‘I agree with everything you said,’" says Sprigg, a spokesman for The Family Research Council, a powerful, conservative Christian lobbying group."
Didn't you even read the article?
NO! Whatdya think I practice?? Nutsoism??
hmmm Well, that explains it
defending what people??
Saying these evangelicals are not people is probably a bit extreme. Sure, they have forfeited a chunk of their humanity and much of their intellect....
But they are still people. Just bigoted people.
I am a troll, ignore me
God loves the Christian, but hates the Christianity.
Zeus? Nah – he hates Christians! They worship a false god.
The problem I have with evangelicals is that they feel they can pick and choose what to believe in their Bible. I know evangelicals who believe that being gay is a sin, but they have no problem with divorce,eating pork, and the woman being the dominant partner If their Bible it true, literal, and uncorruptable, then either believe it in its entirety, or adapt. You can't do both.
RAGS rag against the god gubmint's domain, err church.
the thing i like about heathen is they never say the same things 26,999 times
Why can't they? They can make up whatever religion they want, call it whatever they want, and spew about it for as long as they want.
MY problem with fanatics is they tend to be inconsistent. If you tell me you believe X then act like you believe X and don't change your story every other day as the mood strikes you.
Christian's aren’t perfect nor do we profess to be. With that said divorce is a catastrophe and not looked at favorably by God and is only acceptable in adulterous situations. For the pork comment that is specifically mentioned in the New Testament as being ok. Peter was the one dealing with that issue (see Acts 10). For your last comment, men and women were created differently but uniquely, and yes men are to lead their homes but they are also called to love their wives as Jesus loved the church which is a big challenge. Jesus also talks about how he came for the sinner not the righteous. Just because a “Christian” messes up doesn’t mean what they are saying isn’t true. Don’t be distracted by the messenger when the message is good and right.
Well, then they are probably not a true Christian if they dont believe the bible in its entirety.
Can't get laid...it is the only personal reason it has for its jealousy of other's having a se.x life.
Yes, and apparently they choose to believe that David and Jonathan were just good friends. ROFL
If God created man in his image, and 10% of humans are gay, then God must be 10% gay.
hmmm.... instersting logic there.. so then the thu'mpers must hate 10% of "god" too, correct?
Adam had to be gay then.................he poked himself with his own bone to create eve ?
she made u in the image of her
Wrong you must be gay LOL
Why would the disciples be jealous of each other if jesus was not favoring one over the other, that nagging 10% of "gayness" showed up in the son of god perhaps?
HAHAHA, yer killin' me!
A question for the buy-bull thu'mpers out there ... if your "god" sees being gay as a travesty, then WEHY does your "god" allow it to begin with? According to your own doctrine, "god" knew us before we were born (you claim "he" crated us in the first place), and knows how our lives will pan out. That's called omniscience. So, if "he" knew someone will be gay, then why "create" that person, knowing they are gay,then condemn them to an eternity in what you call "hell"? That's called sadism. Funny, I never would have guessed your "god" was into S&M.
y do u ask?
You just reasoned yourself into the stew. Reasoning for the seasoning. Ouch, HOT!
how so?? Let's see YOUR answer.
No such thing as a born c*cksucker. What a joke.
ok Josh, please tell us, at what point did you CHOOSE to be straight? Were you even given a choice in the matter?
2 Corinthians 5:21 ►
New International Version (©2011)
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God
the part of us that God created was pure.
our soul is eternal, and it is our flesh and blood that corrupts this part of us.
I didn't choose to be gay.. There aren't too many choices otherwise.
@ Austin – soooo. your God DIDN'T create our bodies? I thought God created everything in the universe.
Austin ...................told you this befoe.................sole is on bottom of shoe..............can be replaced or repaired !!!
Austin ... you were taught the word "soul" since birth. It's all you know. The existence of such a thing has yet to be proven. All you jibber-jabber is useless unless you can verifiably prove a "soul" exists... oh, and you cannot use religious texts as your "evidence", because it doesn't meet the criteria for the definition of the word "evidence". So go ahead, prove one exists for us, we're all waiting.
@ Josh – so exactly when do you "choose" to be straight? Was in when you were 10 or 11 or 12, sitting in your room flipping a coin, saying, "Heads, I'll give head. Tails, I'll like tail"?
you act like gay lust is different than any other disobedient sin. it isnt. this is what is different. You all act and play such fools so that you think you have a license and excuse. You are the worst rationalizers around. This argument is not about a particular people at all, its about the garunteed freedom from sin that is being rejected.
Se.xual immorality is a sin. straight or gay. you have no excuse to live in s.exual immorality.
Josh: You failed to answer the question, so we'll rephrase it for your small mind...if gay is a choice, then being hetero also must be...so when did you make the decision to be hetero?
btw: Should you not be getting off to class?...grade 5 is hard to pass the 10th time round if you don't attend you silly child.
If you are getting your "morals" from a 2000 year old book, it is YOU who is immoral. And, I'm still waiting for an answer to my original question.
12Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
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@ Mass D
"By the way, there are many people who keep dream journals, but only psychopaths try to decipher them as divine inspiration."
i am going through this again...
all of the dreams I had, that I discern were visioins, were because I was having dreams that were LEADING what my reality and awake life was about to actually present to me. Did I know when i wrote them down, or expect, for these dreams to be doing such a thing? there were a few where I knew that I could expect something. and they did hit .
two nights in a row, and a little space between the third dream,
#1I dreamt about the tile patio , a huge and beautiful rock tile with wide grout and a beautiful pattern and color, ater i had entered a stone arch entrance. There was an arm reaching into a whole, a whole chizzeled out of the ground. and the arm pulled out a leather bag full of gems. wrote these down in the middle or the night half asleep. The next day....I kept reading my bible.......
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah in Tahpanhes, saying, 9 “Take some large stones in your [a]hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick terrace which is at the entrance of Pharaoh’s [c]palace in Tahpanhes, in the sight of [d]some of the J.ews; 10 and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, “Behold, I am going to send and get Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and I am going to set his throne right over these stones that I have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.
#2 the next night I dreamed that i was being attacked by a motorcycle gang and that the leader of the gang had a huge animal horn, att.atched to his seat. he could not even sit on his bike. he was trying to run me over. they were a rebel gang.
the next day, i had finished reading Jeremiah and gotten into Lament.ations
◄ Lament.ations 2:3 ►
New International Version (©2011)
In fierce anger he has cut off every horn of Israel. He has withdrawn his right hand at the approach of the enemy. He has burned in Jacob like a flaming fire that consumes everything around it.
◄ Lament.ations 2:17 ►
New International Version (©2011)
The LORD has done what he planned; he has fulfilled his word, which he decreed long ago. He has overthrown you without pity, he has let the enemy gloat over you, he has exalted the horn of your foes.
I DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE BOOK OF JEREMIAH AND THE STONES, AND I HAD NO RECOLLECTION OF LAMENTA.TIONS. i COULD NOT HAVE TOLD YOU WHAT ONE MAIN POINT WAS OTHER THAN I KNEW JEREMIAH WAS A PROPHET.
#3 a few days later I had a dream that there was a huge pile of feathers underneath a bed. that day, I was reading in the book of daniel, ◄ Daniel 4:33 ►
New International Version (©2011)
Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.
the kid who i had the dream about, got into trouble that day, which i had suspected the feather was a sign that he would be humiliated. he had his work pass suspended which was a major blow.
#4 dreamed I was poisoned by mercury in alcohol. the next dream, didnt have a single dream for two weeks, this next dream I had just let two snakes out of a cage. one was a viper, the other was a rattler. but I had not thought even thought the word viper for a long time. when i woke up, i said to the kid next to me................."something is going to happen today, this one is a sign" i knew the snakes were a sign..
two hours later i went down to bible study, the leader, on the second passage, said turn to proverbs 23:32
29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has blo.odshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
#5 Dreamed i was in a wh.ore house and I flooded it because i turned on a water spitot upstairs and just let it go and left it on. I had been praying about lust. I didnt catch this dream, until a few week later i did a study on water. I had no clue about this dream. i seemed like a random joke. but i got kicked out for letting the water run and flood.
15 Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. 16 Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? 17 Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. 18 May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. 19 A loving doe, a graceful deer– may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love. 20 Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man's wife? Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman? 21 For your ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all your paths. 22 The evil deeds of the wicked ensnare them; the cords of their sins hold them fast.
# 6 dreamed i was touring a house and went out back and there was an ABOVE ground pool with an flush deck and a privacy fence right around the deck.
two days later the kid sleeping next to me pulled out a piece of paper , sheldon clay was his name, and he showed me his blue print he drew, of a new house, with an above ground swimming pool , with a flush deck around the pool, and a privacy fence on the deck.
#7 this kid on night threw a roll a tp and racked me. I was furious and said to myself, I wonder if he has the light in his eye. and then i rebuked my judgment of his spiritual condition. THE NEXT MORNING he woke up and came up to me and said, "i had a dream last night that i was going around to see who had a special light in their eye to see if they were possessed or not"
this kid was not a bible verse type of guy.
#8 had a dream that the kid who was ripping on me lost his money
a month later i over heard him talking about how he lost his money, and i said watch this, and pulled out the dream i had that he had lost it.
#9 the cat dream. I had a cat at my house, that night i dreamed that a demonic voice sang to me which inverted my body and then presented the same cat, covered in blood.
I woke up and the cat was dead in the highway, 550 feet from my house.
#10 I had a dream i was inside the st. louis arch and I was in there with my cousin, and she was pointing at a glass case , with a bust of someone. she said "look, its thomas Jefferson" and the place was very nice. very expensive and ritzy.
I had no idea what the st. louis arch was about. but what i had been doing, was getting heavily into the rumors about masons, and this dream just came to me. and when I googled this and I started trembling . this is called "a word of knowledge" which is a type of spiritual gift.
There have been numerous other ones that I believe were spiritual words of knowledge that i wont get in to .
None of this stuff, is me trying to fit things together. everything i dreamed, and then experienced in real life as i have stated. Some of these, are totally obvious. others, I have complete faith that they were also spiritual revelations, because I know %100 that some were, so I can have faith that others probably were too. and 8 of the first ten there, all happened in jail.
This is organized, and relevant information that is a dream, relating to reality that i was about to live.
That is spiritual revelation.
@ Josh .. you said "I didn't choose to be gay.. There aren't too many choices otherwise.".. so why didn't you choose? Why couldn't you choose? Were you given a choice, and if not, WHY not?
@ Josh – should be an easy question to answer. When did you choose to be straight? I'll open the floor to other people who believe being gay is a choice. When, and under shat circ-umstances, did you CHOOSE to be straight?
the same time I chose not to kill and steal. The same time i choose whether ana.l se.x and oral se.x with a straight girl friend is glorifying to God.
Dont act like you go around having ana.l se.x and you never chose to act that way.
fornication is outside of God's will. Making a committment , unconditional committment to love a woman and never leave her is what every gay man avoids. You avoid and lack the will power to love and committ to a woman and you choose a perversion of what you are told is right.
You have a character issue if you are a fornicator or ho.mo se.xual
this is a character issue/
I think we finally found out what's wrong with Austin!!! He's mad because he's still a vir-gin!!! Oh, and if you aren't, Austin, then YOU are a for'nic'ator as well. How does it feel to be a hypocrite?
correct, fornicator. its a struggle being single but I trust that God has a will and way , a reason that Im here, even if this trial has an unknown end. I put a way that pleases God above all. Do I go out and look to get laid? No because if I go that route I will miss God's blessing, I will get into a relationship that He maybe does not bless. then i am on a futile road and emotional burden for who knows how long. This is what I pride my self to avoid. being enslaved to a futile burden.
got drunk on night, lost control of his car, drove in to a church (could have killed someone), asked for forgiveness and now anything he does can't be considered a sin or bad b/c he has an imaginary friend to defend him...in reality Austin received brain damage during his drunken rampage and no longer is able to use rational thought
That fairy still banging between the EARS Austin ?
science never points to all there mistake in the pass or what they thought 50 years ago how many things they had wrong the bible was wrote many years ago and has never change and had never been mistaken on anything so i will stay with the bible in noah's day they could science could prove there was no rain in the sky that is why with 120 years of preaching he only got his family in science is only someones idea for the day God still flooded the earth and no matter what you think it does not stop him from doing what he said he would do
the Bible has been changed and changed again, translated and retranslated.
It has not read the dead see scrolls fool
And the band played on while the dogs kept barking.
Ken, if you were handed one of those scrolls, could you open it up and read it to us?
Hey, I just watched "And the Band Played On" ... haven't seen it in years... good HBO movie!!
their not there (one can't be expected to be taken seriously if they can't use the proper spelling of basic English words)
Science has many questions that may never be answered, religion has many answers that may never be questioned.
When science makes a mistake it is corrected. When religion makes a mistake they cover it up.
ignorant and uneducated, or is English not your first language?
More like – Christians are a 'hateful' minority.
Biggest hypocrites you'll ever see are Christians. They say they love their neighbor, but really have a hate list longer than anybody else.
You had your drones reading and checking my list?? twice??
The work of the Orthodox Jewish nuclear physicist Gerald Schroeder had been influential in Flew's new belief, but Flew told Carrier that he had not read any of the critiques of Schroeder that Carrier referred him to.
However, in spring 2005, when Raymond Bradley, an atheist in Editorial Board for The Open Society journal, wrote an open letter to Flew accusing him of not "check[ing] the veracity of [Schroeder's] claims before swallowing them whole," Flew strongly responded to that charge in a letter published in the same journal in summer 2006, describing the content of Bradley's letter "extraordinary offensive" and the accusation made by him as an "egregiously offensive charge"; he also implied that Bradley was a "secularist bigot," and suggested that he should follow Socrates's advice (as scripted in Plato's Republic) of "follow[ing] the argument wherever it leads." Other prominent atheists, such as Richard Dawkins, suggested Flew's deism was a form of God of the gaps.
To close to home faith ?
No divine designer needed.................so lol??/faithy ......... not peachy............your KJV.............is BULLSH-IT
i'd like to extend my 1st amendment rights to thank sambo 4 threatening christians. u r quite the sweet talker sambo.
you're welcome. now, eat your pistol
Why does that make you uncomfortable Sam? Sin means missing the mark have you ever missed you mark?
sambo is always cheerful. she was born that way
you're welcome. now, eat your pistol
only is u kiss me sambo
because it is implies a petty, vindictive pr1ck god that is willing, if not eager, to torture people eternally for finite crimes
and, d1ckwad, i am a guy
pour widdle samboi
still dreaming of svcking off the savior, faith?
is sam a she?
i am a he
sam is murdock
still dreaming of svcking off the savior, faith?
I had my hoo-ha removed
WOW more than one peach here !
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