By Dan Merica and Daniel Burke, CNN
Follow @DanMericaCNNFollow @BurkeCNN
(CNN)– For more than two decades, the Rev. R. Guy Erwin couldn't officially be a pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. On Friday, he was elected a bishop.
Erwin's election signals a shift not only for the ELCA – the nation's seventh largest church – but also for American Christianity. Only one other mainline Protestant denomination, the Episcopal Church, has elected openly gay and lesbian bishops.
“In these days such milestones seem to be coming at an ever-faster rate," Erwin told CNN, "and eventually what seems revolutionary now will seem normal and predictable."
With more than 4 million members in 10,000 congregations, the ELCA is the largest of several Lutheran denominations in the United States. The ELCA's decision to allow gay clergy has strained ties between those denominations, some of whom have partnered for relief work.
"The ELCA is a church that belongs to Christ, and there is a place for all here," said church spokeswoman Melissa Ramirez Cooper. "The election of Pastor Erwin illustrates what many in the 4-million-member church believe - that God calls each of us by name.”
The ELCA lifted its ban on openly gay, partnered clergy in 2009, clearing the way for pastors like Erwin, but angering conservatives. By some estimates, some 600 congregations have since left the ELCA for more conservative churches.
The Rev. W. Stevens Shipman, director of the Lutheran Coalition for Renewal, said the ELCA is not keeping promises it made in 2009 to respect the views of churches and individuals who regard homosexuality as a sin.
"The promise was also made publicly that no congregation would be required to call a pastor in a same-sex partnership," Shipman said, "but now an entire synod has been forced to live under the authority of a bishop who is in such a relationship."
Erwin, a scholar at California Lutheran University, will serve a six-year term representing the Southwest California Synod, a five-county area that includes Los Angeles. His election took place an annual three-day assembly in Woodland Hills, California.
Erwin, who was ordained a pastor in 2011, played down his election as the ELCA's first openly gay bishop. But acknowledged that his very “existence” was a symbol for broader acceptance.
“The work of a bishop in our church is to lift up the church's message of grace and peace in the wider society, to administer the church's work in our area, and to teach and preach,” Erwin said in an e-mail to CNN. “In this regard, the sexual orientation of the bishop may not be very important.”
Still, the bishop-elect said, “The very fact I exist will be a signal to others that GLBT folks are respected and have a full place in our church.” Erwin is also part Osage Indian and is active in the Osage Indian Nation, according to the ELCA.
Erwin’s election symbolizes a noticeable change for a church that once banned clergy who were in same-sex relationships, said Ross Murray, director of news and Faith initiatives at GLAAD.
Prior to the 2009 change, “hundreds of gay and lesbian clergy were forced out of congregations or served under secrecy,” Murray said.
“Dr. Erwin demonstrates how far the ECLA has come with LGBT inclusion,” said Murray in an e-mail to CNN. “He could not have been ordained just four years ago, and now he is a leader for the church. It makes me proud as a gay man, and as a Lutheran.”
Although the ELCA church did not allow clergy in same-sex relationships while he was attending seminary, Erwin said that he “always believed that this would someday be possible.”
Erwin also said the church's 2009 change in policy was more of a "culmination of God's work" than a "start of something new."
Erwin has long been a board member of Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries, a Lutheran group that advocates for the 130 openly gay Lutheran clergy who are members.
Amalia Vagts, the group’s executive director, said Erwin’s election was an “amazing day” for openly gay and lesbian Lutherans.
“This is a powerful message for LGBT people everywhere that the Lutheran church welcomes them,” Vagts said in an e-mail.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. -Romans 1:26-27
That passage is about apostasy.
The people mentioned angered God because they were self-professed Christians who abandoned their faith and took part in a pagan or/gy.
That it was a bi-se.xual or/gy is of secondary concern.
Do you think God would've been OK if it were a hetero gang bang?
And you'll note also the use of the word "natural" and "nature" – since se.xual orientation is innate, someone who is born gay would be doing what is natural for them by being with someone of the same gender.
"someone who is born gay would be doing what is natural for them by being with someone of the same gender." -this is the yeast of the Pharisees our Lord warned us of, adding things not in His word. you are in error and God does not see it this way.
"God does not see it this way."
I have few words for someone who tries to tell me they speak for their deity/deities:
Screw you – do everyone a favor and go be with your "maker".
If any deity wanted to send a message to humans, it doesn't make sense that his messenger would be someone who LIES as much as awanderingscot? He has told several lies about me which can be proven to be lies. I'll bet it's the same for many others on here.
ahh Do-Russ, don't let your depravity give vent to anger now, it's making you even uglier.
The bible says liars and adulterers are in the same boat as "men who lie with men". Drunkards and gluttons as well, so next time you see one of the 30% of the Souths population that is extremely obese, please treat them the same way you and your Christian friends treat gay people.
you argue with the creator, not me.
also, the context of this article is about a church that claims to represent God and yet is clearly in violation of His teachings. i have nothing to say to gay people or anyone practicing sin. i do have a problem with those who claim to represent God lying about what His word says.
Read the GOLDEN RULE someday since you appear to be TOTALLY CLUELESS about it.
also, this passage has nothing at all to do with apostasy. Paul is speaking of sinful humanity (Gentiles) not having an intimate knowledge of His saving grace, not having had the gospel revealed to them as the Jews had, yet having a knowledge of God revealed by His creation. In other words they were able to look around and see His handiwork in creation and know instinctively that they were part of His creation and yet willfully refused to believe in Him. Therefore He judicially hardened their hearts and blinded them so their horrible sins would not be apparent to them. read the chapter from the beginning so that you get the full context of what he is saying.
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Genesis 1:27-28, NKJV – this is God's way, irrefutable, divine, perfect.
"The ELCA is a church that belongs to Christ, and there is a place for all here," said church spokeswoman Melissa Ramirez Cooper
"If you love Me, keep My commandments. – John 14:15, NKJV
despite the claims here by this church, they do not belong to Christ, and they are an apostate church. if in fact they did truly love Him they would keep His commandments. they are in open rebellion against God and their claims are false.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. – Romans 1:26-27
who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. – Romans 1:32, NKJV
this church approves of those who practice sin, they do not belong to Christ.
Are you proud of being a bigot behind the guise of Christianity? Your giant book of fairy tales has no pertinence outside of your belief system and certainly doesn't hold one iota of morals or evidence.
don't like it? tooo bad. there's not anything you can do about it; but go here [atheist.blog.hateful.godless.com/dishonest/immoral]
Not that I believe in any of that hogwash, but evidently millions of Christians disagree with your interpretation, buck-o.
if you are proud of sin and approve of it then lace it up and wear it, don't whine because someone differs. If i'm a bigot because i don't approve of sin, then i embrace your name-calling, it's not a bad thing for me. you don't justify me so i really don't give a damn what you think of me.
"culmination of God's work" this is so patently false and evil it does not even merit comment.
"start of something new." apostasy is not new, it has been attacking the church since it's foundation.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. – Matthew 7:15, NKJV – our Lord aptly prophesied concerning the antichrist to come.
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. – 2 Peter 2:1-2
Of course most NT scholars agree that it is unlikely that Peter authored Peter 2. Ooops, and there goes the certainty of that stamp of approval from Peter of Paul's works as divine scripture....lol.
Thankfully, our law in the U.S. doesn't depend on Paul. Aside from his claims on his own alleged personal experience, Paul's testimony was hearsay. Also note that the alleged stamp of approval for Paul's testimony as divinely inspired in Peter 2 is most likely bogus since most NT scholars agree that Peter did not author Peter 2.
well you are absolutely correct Doris in that our law does not depend on Paul, nor does it depend on Peter or any man. It depends on God and is God's governmental dealing with mankind in this age and it is in His loving mercy and love so that total anarchy does not reign; this is not to be confused with judgment day aka the Day of the Lord. (he makes the rain and sun shine on the wicked as well as the righteous). As for Paul's divine inspiration in His epistles there can be no mistake, you calling him a liar will be credited to your account. In both of Peter's epistles he starts out with encouragement to God's elect in the Jews and from there continues edifying all the Jewish Christians in the Mediterranean. Form and style all point to Peter as being the author, there can be no doubt.
Sorry – your opinion is in the minority on this. From what I've seen, most NT scholars that give good reasons why Peter 2 is not from Peter are Christians. But hey – I know you're quite comfortable with calling out other Christians as phonies. This is not an unusual Christian trait.
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." –Thomas Jefferson
here's a newsflash for you Doris. not everyone calling themselves a Christian IS one. the majority of Christians only love the 'loaves and the fishes' and have no stomach for obeying His commandments; this because they don't truly love Him.
the number of the elect is indeed small, only 2 of the original slaves in Egypt made it into the promised land, Joshua and Caleb, the rest were scattered (their bodies) in the desert. this is not a bad thing as you suggest. i am honored to be among the elect.
"If you love Me, keep My commandments." – John 14:15, NKJV – this means ALL of the bible, it's not a salad bar from which we can pick and choose what we like, discarding what we don't like.
Newsflash, scot. That you are so ready to call millions of other Christians not Christians (and I'm sure in many cases – vice versa) only supports the observation by Jefferson I quoted above. The att.itude you show in that regard is one of the primary reasons we have a separation of church and state, imho. (You know, we don't tolerate that Lords Spiritual business here.) But thanks for playing.
my authority is God, so what if yours is Jefferson, and can either of you or anyone substantiate the claim of "millions"? no you cannot and therefore just another ad hominem attack easily debunked. were there wolves in sheep's killing people in the name of the Lord? of course there were and always have. no real Christian would advocate murder though and it is in no way an indictment against God, he gave us free will to do good, not evil.
fallacy spotting, snot. argumentum ad populum will get you nowhere. bleeding people used to be the cure of the day for all kinds of ills – people grew wiser to learn more and leave that crap behind. only a total azz would rant as if a god's spokesperson like you do. grow up.
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. – Hebrews 4:2, NKJV – no one expects an unregenerate to understand
Romans (12:20) also says “If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink.”
Do you believe and practice EVERYTHING that Romans says or just pick-and-choose? Do you send money to al Qaeda, for instance or are you just another Christian HYPOCRITE?
"observer" do you even know what a hypocrite is? or do you just go about picking out random scriptures, using them out of context, and calling others hypocrites. try to stay on topic and follow the bouncing ball if you are able. in no way shape or form have i suggested or considered this guy an enemy and yet you are calling me a hypocrite? If you have a problem with any of God's laws you need to take it to a higher authority and stop your name-calling. I quoted scripture here and gave an explanation entirely within the context of this blog.
Sorry you missed my question. Here it is:
The higher authority being the self-appointed religious hierarchy? Or the god conspicuous by its absence?
"Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: 'When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand.' -Ezekiel 33:2-6, NKJV (you know nothing of God's will and you don't know scripture. you are only here to attack Christians and their faith.)
Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. for I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. -Acts 20:26-27, NKJV (Paul here speaks of the "whole counsel of God" which includes warning the wicked they face the cup of God's wrath poured out in full if they do not repent)
Are you capable of expressing any original thoughts or just do random cut-and-paste?
His thoughts are my thoughts as well although His thoughts are expressed more perfectly. Your thoughts are the thoughts of a carnal man, full of pride and error. Since you obviously do not believe all of His word, you do not have His wisdom and you do not have the Spirit of Christ to teach you the things of God.
"Since you obviously do not believe all of His word, you do not have His wisdom"
No one believes ALL of his word. They just pick and choose.
You are right. I don't have his "wisdom". Unlike God, I don't support slavery, discrimination against women, discrimination against gays, discrimination against the handicapped, beating helpless children with sticks, etc.
Surely you have things turned around!
Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;
For shall the thing made say of him who made it,
“He did not make me”?
Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”? – Isaiah 29:16, NKJV
Only a fool would argue with the Almighty.
You are wrong, unregenerates such as yourself do not believe the bible in it's entirety; ones born-again such as myself do.
The Bible supports:
discrimination against women
discrimination against gays
discrimination against the handicapped
beating helpless children with sticks, etc.
Why not read one SOMEDAY so you'll have a CLUE what it says?
"The Bible supports:"
=>No, the Bible begins to reign in the abuse of slaves as was common and remind the Hebrew to never forget what it felt like for 430 years as oppressed slaves under Egypt; "I am the Lord your God who set you free from the slavery of Egypt". Please don't quote your typical beat your old grandma slave with a stick and if she lives you are a saint twist.
Yes, it would be nice if the Bible said "the hell with your only way to survive I command you to put in place a new economy with minimum living wage equal to what your elected officials receive with free heath care and retirement plans that allow for world wide free tourism"
"discrimination against women"
=> Galatians 3:28: 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
"discrimination against gays"
=>sorry wrong again "for all have sinned and fallen short of the Gory of God"
"discrimination against the handicapped'
=>Get real, the religious leaders went bonkers with what is pure before God. If you refer to Lev.21:17-23 this as with others applied to Priests and the meaning was a wrinkle or blemish on a Priest made him unholy and he could not go behind the curtain.
Jesus clearly demonstrated compassion for all including the handicapped.
"beating helpless children with sticks, etc."
=>Yes, observer children were not sent to their rooms for a time out 3,000 years ago as no democrats were yet elected.
=>Stop confusing sticks with rods. As little as 50 years ago even your liberal nannies used the principle spare the rod and spoil the child. Perhaps you need to spend some time in a Klingon training camp so you can grasp perspective of cultures.
"The Bible supports slavery"
Yes. It tells people where to buy slaves, who they can buy as slaves, who they can sell as slaves and how badly you can beat your slave without getting any vengeance. OOOPS.
The punishment for beating your old grandma slave with a stick and if she lives" is NO VENGEANCE. OOOOPS again..
God discriminated against and INTENTIONALLY punished EVERY WOMAN with the pain of childbirth. OOOOPS still again.
God discriminated against gays and originally wanted them all KILLED. NO VICTIMS here, but KILL them anyway. OOOOPS.
God discriminated against the handicapped. He didn't want them as priests in HIS CHURCHES. So much for "loving everyone equally". OOPS.
Please spend time to actually read a Bible, Fred, so you will KNOW BETTER and not make such IGNORANT statements.
"Yes. It tells people where to buy slaves, who they can buy as slaves, who they can sell as slaves and how badly you can beat your slave without getting any vengeance. OOOPS."
=>Yes, and the army manual used the Custer tells how to scalp Indians so would you agree that the United States constitution supports scalping and approves of it?
"The punishment for beating your old grandma slave with a stick and if she lives" is NO VENGEANCE. OOOOPS again.."
=>we have been down this path. Vengeance is mine says the Lord. Go a head beat your slave it is not a personal liability issue (you pulled this verse from civil laws applied to the Hebrew) and you will see the vengeance of the Lord.
"God discriminated against and INTENTIONALLY punished EVERY WOMAN with the pain of childbirth. OOOOPS still again."
=>and man would work his fingers in the dirt among thistle (thorns, hard labor and death working the dirt)
"God discriminated against gays and originally wanted them all KILLED. NO VICTIMS here, but KILL them anyway. OOOOPS."
=>All was related to sexually immoral behavior regardless if male of female, gay or straight here come the stones (and not the rock group we are familiar with these days)
"God discriminated against the handicapped. He didn't want them as priests in HIS CHURCHES. So much for "loving everyone equally". OOPS. "
=>not even a blemish or wrinkle............it was the language of the day to show the height of purity required.
The Const-itution FORTUNATELY has NOTHING to do with God's COMMANDS in the Bible. Your Custer comment was ridiculous and had NOTHING to do with God's COMMAND NOT TO PUNISH women-beaters.
Yes. God NEVER said beating elderly female slaves with sticks was wrong. He did say there should be NO VENGEANCE. "Vengeance is mine said God", so there was NO REASON for him to take vengeance on sinners by COMMANDING people to KILL THEM. OOOPS.
Yep. God told man that work was necessary, but gave EVERY WOMAN pain as PUNISHMENT for the actions of another woman from THOUSANDS/MILLIONS of years ago who listened to a talking animal.
"it was the language of the day to show the height of purity required." So if you need glasses you aren't "pure". Good one. DO you think things through at all before answering? But at least you agreed that God did discriminate against the handicapped. We are making progress.
"The Const-itution FORTUNATELY has NOTHING to do with God's COMMANDS in the Bible. Your Custer comment was ridiculous and had NOTHING to do with God's COMMAND NOT TO PUNISH women-beaters."
=>Now you are beginning to understand. Just because scalping Indians was approved for Custer in his time and place then recorded does not mean it is approved. Personal liability civil code from 3,400 years ago is not part of the constitution because it does not apply outside of its time and place. Thank you for finally agreeing with me even you did not understand.
"so there was NO REASON for him to take vengeance on sinners by COMMANDING people to KILL THEM. OOOPS."
=>You know darn well that Jesus said love your neighbor, to even think wrong about another in your heart is the equivalent to murder. There is no escape for the mistreatment of anyone. The Bible assumes an eternal soul and vengeance of God is not limited to what happens on our time or our ways.
Granted most theologians believe the verse you speak of applies to vengeance for murder and since the cause of death is uncertain should the slave die at a later date it is not a clear cut case. Further, the intent of the master is unknown and it assumed God knows the intent. It could be possible that the slave dies as an indirect result of a cane (typical usage of rod in this case) used a corporal chastisement for criminal behavior of a slave it clearly was not murder. We don't know a lot of details on this but if you know more than the theologians then go teach at Harvard.
God told man that work was necessary, but gave EVERY WOMAN pain as PUNISHMENT for the actions of another woman from THOUSANDS/MILLIONS of years ago who listened to a talking animal."
=>to the man he said: "Cursed is the ground because of you through PAINFUL toil you will eat of it."
"So if you need glasses you aren't "pure"."
=>these guys were nit pickers and not even a blemish was allowed. You can go figure what actually happened behind the curtain.
"Just because scalping Indians was approved for Custer in his time and place then recorded does not mean it is approved"
Yep. Those were God's words and obviously the perfect and unchanging God's commands were wrong like for Custer. Well done.
"You know darn well that Jesus said love your neighbor"
Yes. He wasn't the one to say there would be NO VENGEANCE for beating an elderly female slave with a rod if she lived. Keep TRYING to change the subject from God to Jesus and from LIVING to DYING. Total FAILURE.
"these guys were nit pickers and not even a blemish was allowed."
lol. God HIMSELF didn't want them in there because they would "profane My sanctuaries"
Seriously, do you struggle with the English language? Do you use a dictionary? You seem to have major problems with reading comprehension of simple words. Please try to read better and try thinking things through.
like i said Observer, you are without eyes and ears so of course you will not hear God's word or see His wisdom. however, just so you know, they did not have welfare in those days and so if one became poor and could not put food in his mouth, what would he or she do? he or she would go into slavery, and it was not an evil thing as you suppose, in fact as was the custom he or she could remain in slavery by having his ear awled to the doorway. you talk a lot about things for which you have no understanding and in your carnal wisdom you contend with the almighty. you continue to store up wrath for yourself.
lol. It is YOU who is "without understanding". It is true that slaves were sometimes given the option to remain. So what did the option involve? The slave owner could "give them a wife" and children. They were NOT ALLOWED to leave when the male did. So his choice was to LEAVE HIS FAMILY likely forever or to stay with them. Terribly difficult choice.
So if a family needed money, you see no problem in SELLING their 6-year-old daughter to a stranger for his USE? The slaves were to do ANYTHING the master wanted according to the Bible.
Please try to develop better MORALS than those in the Bible. Those are TERRIBLE and BARBARIC. Disgusting and disgraceful.
Man's way and his morals: let a woman without means go on welfare, have children, have boyfriends, not be a productive member of society, and in most cases have the sloth lead to an immoral lifestyle.
God's way and his moral: let a woman without means become a productive member of a family paying her way, postponing having children until she can find a husband and/or make her way in this world.
Prove your comment about the six-year old girl. Where is that stated you liar.
God is the moral life giver, not you, you know nothing. Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, His ways are higher than ours. Right now you are a rebel and a son of Satan who twists scripture and takes it out of context to blaspheme God and serve your blasphemous purposes. No son of God is going to be fooled for a moment by your evil diatribe, we will trust our heavenly father no matter what lies you tell.
(Ex. 21:7-8) “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do” [God]
Notice that God doesn't oppose this at all. God NEVER puts any restrictions on how young your daughter might be when you SELL her for someone's USE. OOOOPS!
As a slave she is "to be submissive to their own masters in EVERYTHING" (Ti-tus 2:9-10).
Just as with your CLUELESSNESS about greed in Sodom, you have once again made a FOOL OF YOURSELF by calling someone a liar when it was you who had no idea what they were talking about. Jesus would be so proud of you!
LOL you go from customs concerning betrothal to Sodom, much like a ship without a rudder in a stormy sea. Again God's wisdom trumps your stupid carnal 'wisdom'. Instead of fornicating like you would advocate, a provision was made whereby the woman (not a 6yr old you dolt) would become indentured in the family as a way to get to know him and his family, their ways, etc. If it was pleasing to both she would stay and become either the man or his son's wife, if not she could go her own way without repaying the room and board. The prospective marriage partner paid a dowry to the father of the girl. There is no evil in this, only in your carnal mind do you find evil, this being so because your father is the devil. Same thing with a young man, he could go indentured as an apprentice to the homeowner's trade and pay his way to learn a trade.
Why do you refer to Titus 2:9-10 in a negative context? Here is the verse
"6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us. 9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age
=>In context the verse addresses all people to what is right. Slaves were part of world. Just like all people the right attitude, the right way brings good. Slaves that followed the will of God were blessed just as you would be there is no difference when you do what is right. Even thousands of years earlier Abraham was going to put his slave in charge of all his properties it was his inheritance because he did not believe he would have children. Joseph a much esteemed man of God was sold into slavery by his brothers and became the highest ranking state head in Egypt next to the Pharaoh.
Do what is right and help others learn what brings goodness and what brings trouble.
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in EVERYTHING". So young girls are told to do ANYTHING their master wants. This is the same society with the command from Moses that women are prizes of war. So much for respect of women. And again, this applies to any age such as 6-year-old girls or teenage virgins. NOT ONE WORD about whether the master DESERVES this. NOT ONE WORD about whether the young girl EVER wanted to be there.
Seriously, do you actually believe these verses authorize and command sexual deviance with 6 year old girls. Exactly what is wrong with you? Sexual taboo was the big sin from day one in this culture. Inability of self control is a problem with mankind. You actually believe God commands masters to do the wrong thing with 6 year olds?
FACT: God NEVER puts any restrictions on how young your daughter might be when you SELL her for someone's USE. OOOOPS! Guess you NEVER read it.
FACT: You were CLUELESS about the sin of Sodom being greed. OOOPS again.
FACT: Your juvenile insults and name-calling is just further PROOF of what HYPOCRITES some Christians can be. Would Jesus do that? Of course not. Keep the HYPOCRISY alive.
Well done. Now why not READ a Bible since you are so CLUELESS about slavery and Sodom?
"God NEVER puts any restrictions on how young your daughter might be when you SELL her for someone's USE."
=>read it again and tell me if he puts restrictions on the age a fetus skull can be crushed some while even in the womb or how a compassionate soul could toss a child into a stainless steal dish and wait up to 40 minutes for the painful squirming to stop.
"You were CLUELESS about the sin of Sodom being greed."
=>the sin of Sodom is the sin of greed and desire that is spawned from an evil heart.
God gave a long list of reasons to kill women.
NEVER ONCE did God give a rip if they were pregnant or not.
You have a warped view of God. Consider that it was the God Abraham all the way down to my God. How is it those with a personal experience with God love God and want you experience love, that perfect love most have never known. To know the wonder of God that has opened the opportunity for existence itself. Certainly there is a vast gulf between the God we know and the one you put nails into on a daily basis.
"You have a warped view of God."
Okay, let's see.
God gave a long list of commands to KILL women.
Did he EVER ONCE say he gave a rip if they were pregnant or not? YES or NO?
you mean beside Mary "blessed are you", Sarah, Hagar, Rebecca, Leah, etc.? Oh how about "wow to the mother with child when that day comes"? "for I knew you before I knit you bones together in the womb"? Not to mention those verses you like to quote for personal liability if you cause harm to a pregnant women
You missed the question. Please try again.
Did he EVER ONCE say he gave a rip if the women he commanded KILLED were pregnant or not? YES or NO?
The theme of the Bible is that God created all we know so that we could share in the wonder. For God so loved etc. etc.
Stop taking things out of context to present an different theme.
You continue to argue against the attributes of God as recorded by the Chosen Ones in the Old Testament. You continue to argue against the radiance of God as expressed through Jesus.
I understand that for some reason you think you understand God better than those who revealed their God to us through the Bible. This latest bit that God does not give a rip is your view of God which is contrary to those who claim God was with them. You reject God so you try and dig up dirt. Careful when you begin to look for dirt as you will find it until you discover that when you simply muddy waters it is you who ends up loosing out on the alternative which looks for good.
fred, why do you continue to promote childish beliefs for which there is not a shred of actual evidence? Why do you continue to pretend you know things you do not?
Where's the long list of commands to kill women Observer? or is this another of your unproven assertions and another feeble attempt of yours to indict my God. "No wisdom, no understanding, and no counsel will prevail against the Lord." -Proverbs 21:30
For someone who loves to cut-and-paste from the Bible, it's shocking how little you know about it.
[Deut. 13:6-10] “worship other gods’ . . . Stone the guilty ones to death
[Deut. 22:20] “man is found lying with a married woman, . . .then both of them shall die”
[Deut. 22:23-24] “virgin engaged . . . another man . . .and lies with her . . stone them to death”
[[Exodus 21:17] "Anyone who says cruel things to his father or mother must be put to death.”
[Exodus 22:18] "Do not let a woman who does evil magic stay alive. Put her to death.”
[Exodus 31:15-17] “Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death”
[Lev. 20:9] “If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death”
[Lev. 20:10] “man who commits adultery with another man's wife . . they shall surely be put to death.”
[Lev. 20:11] “man who lies with his father's wife . . both of them shall surely be put to death.”
[Lev. 20:12] “If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death”
[Lev. 20:14] “man who marries a woman and her mother . . . they shall be burned with fire”
[Lev. 20:27] “man or woman who is a medium or a fortune-teller . . . You must stone them to death"
[Lev. 21:9] “daughter of any priest . . harlotry . . she shall be burned with fire.”
[Lev. 24:11-14] “anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord . . .entire assembly must stone him.”
[Lev. 24:17] “If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death”
Read the ENTIRE Bible so you won't be so CLUELESS about what it says and won't continue to make a fool of yourself by falsely calling other people liars and making juvenile insults.
“anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord . . .entire assembly must stone him. – this is one you would do well to heed. i don't see "woman" or "women" anywhere in this particular command. I also do not see the words "woman" or "women" ALONE in a majority of the 'list' you quote, men are also included, therefore you are a liar.
Speaking of being a LIAR, is this a list of commands that would kill WOMEN and REGARDLESS of whether they are pregnant or not?
You continue to make a COMPLETE FOOL of YOURSELF. Grow up. START using some LOGIC.
i don't see "pregnant woman" or "pregnant women" anywhere in your list. God did not command this. if you're going to impugn the righteousness of my God and question His justice you had better have proof. You don't and therefore you are still a liar.
"i don't see "pregnant woman" or "pregnant women" anywhere in your list."
EXACTLY. That was my point. God didn't give a rip if they were pregnant or not. Now you are starting to think.
You are FINALLY catching on. Now work on your incredible IGNORANCE in calling people LIARS when you have been the one LYING.
“Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" – Job 38:2
Good advice. I hope you START following it. Maybe then you'll stop calling people liars when you are CLUELESS about what you are talking about. I shouldn't have to keep showing you all the things you didn't know that the Bible says.
Maybe you have eyes that cannot focus so I'll ask you to look again. Where do you see "pregnant woman" or "pregnant women" in the text? Or perhaps you see only what your evil mind and heart wish to see.
What seems to be your problem? Do you have a severe reading comprehension problem? Is English a second language for you? Do you have an intelligence deficiency?
FACT: God gave a long list of commands to KILL WOMEN.
FACT: NEVER ONCE does he give a rip if they are pregnant or not.
FACT: NEVER ONCE does he say to give any special consideration if the women to be KILLED are pregnant.
FACT: The commands are to KILL the women so it doesn't matter if they are pregnant.
Also, please use what is called a dictionary to see what the word "liar" means. You are TOTALLY CLUELESS.
You're talking in circles again fred.
'Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.' – Romans 3:28, NKJV
How are you doing at researching who the REAL LIAR was? Any luck finding ANY PROOF that I said what you fantasized that I said?
OOOOOOOPS. Maybe next time you will think before talking so you won't lie so much.
yes, all have sinned and fallen short myself included. undisputed. but i am made righteous by the blood. you calling me a hypocrite will not stop me from preaching Christ whenever, wherever so you may as well stop trying. i obey Him, not you.
So does God like HYPOCRITES who pick and choose which of his commands to personally follow and which to use to pick on other people?
placing the word hypocrite in caps doesn't make it stick and yes i believe ALL of the bible. you on the other hand know nothing about scripture so you should probably just shut your mouth.
You are a Christian HYPOCRITE because you preach but DON'T practice biblical commands like "thou shall not bear false witness". You have LIED on this blog numerous times. When exposed, you run off like a COWARD and lack the integrity to apologize. Quite a Christian!
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. – Hebrews 4:2, NKJV
– i would not expect an unregenerate like yourself to understand.
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." – Genesis 1:27-28, NKJV – this is God's intent
awanderingtot: What exactly do you think you prove by posting scripture after scripture? To the rational person it looks like you're not capable of thinking for yourself and that you're merely thinking on a 5 year old level. That giant book of fairy tales you think is true has zero pertinence to people outside your belief system (somewhere around 5 billion on the planet). Time to grow up wee child.
Hmmmmmm The church says it is okay....but the Apostle Paul does not agree.....
1 Corinthians 5:11 (KJV) |
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
"for this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness" – 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 – anyone devoid of the Spirit of Christ will believe the apostate church in this they have done and believe it ordained by God. They will not avoid His wrath.
I agree Steve. Also key here is the wording Paul used "if any man that is called a brother"; Paul does not say "any man who IS a brother". We are absolutely required to exercise spiritual discernment in these matters and obey the Lord by not keeping company with these tare. Fact is they've always been amongst us but with the harvest so near it is becoming easier and easier to identify them.
DIRTY LITTLE SINNERS?
Are all babies born into this world as dirty little sinners?
BABIES ARE NOT GUILTY OF ADAM'S SIN
ORIGINAL SIN: Accord to the proponents of original sin, men are born with hereditary depravity and corruption of nature and liable to God's wrath. They think all men are inclined to do evil, and that continually. They believe every person born into this world deserves God's wrath and damnation due to the sin of Adam. They believe all men are guilty of sin at the moment of birth. They believe all babies are dirty little sinners.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Was Jesus saying the kingdom of God belongs to DIRTY LITTLE SINNERS, like these children?
Mark 10:15 Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Was Jesus saying in order to enter the kingdom of God you have to be DIRTY LITTLE SINNERS, like children?
If all babies are born DIRTY LITTLE SINNERS; that would have made Jesus a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER.
Hebrews 2:14-17 Therefore, since children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.........17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make the propitiation for the sins of the people.
Jesus was a descendant of Adam. He was made like His brethren in all things. According the original sin advocates that would make Jesus born as a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER. JESUS WAS NOT GUILTY OF ADAM'S SIN NOR ARE ANY BABIES GUILTY OF ADAM'S SIN.
1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
Jesus was not born a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER.
Psalms 139:13-14 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
Did David believe God made him, wonderfully made, because God made him totally depraved and a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER?
Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Men will not be punished for their fathers' sins nor will they be punished spiritually for Adam's sin. Men do not inherit sin. Men are not born as DIRTY LITTLE SINNERS; they become sinners by choice.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Was Jesus saying the kingdom of heaven will be filled with unforgiven DIRTY LITTLE SINNERS? No, He was saying the kingdom belongs innocents like these children.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
How could Job have been blameless and upright and be born as a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER? Job was not totally depraved, and inclined to do evil continually.
2 Kings 2:1 And it came about when the Lord was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven....
Did the Lord take Elijah to heaven because he was born a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER and deserved His wrath and damnation, because of Adam's sin? Elijah was not totally depraved.
Genesis 6:8-9 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. 9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.
Noah was a righteous man. How is it possible for Noah to be born a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER; only inclined to do evil, be guilty of hereditary depravity, and find favor in the eyes of the Lord? Noah was saved because he trusted God and was obedient. Noah was not going to be sent to hell because of Adam's sin. Men will die spiritually because of their own sins; not Adam's.
Acts 10:1-2 Now there was man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.
Cornelius was neither Jew nor a Christian, but he feared God and gave alms to the poor. How would it be possible for Cornelius to act in this manner if he was born a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER; inclined only to do evil, and was totally depraved? Cornelius was not guilty of Adam's sin nor was he guilty any other man's sin.
Luke 8:15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Jesus said some men have a good and honest heart. How can a man who was born as a DIRTY LITTLE SINNER and are totally depraved, and only incline do to do evil, have a good an honest heart?
MEN ARE GUILTY OF THE SINS THEY COMMIT; NOT THE ONE ADAM COMMITTED.
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
Babies no not practice lawlessness in the womb.
James 1:14-15 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Babies are not tempted and enticed by lust in the womb. Adam and Eve sinned when they were enticed by their own lust. Men today sin because the are enticed by their own lust. Men will be held accountable for their own sins, not Adam's.
MEN WILL DIE PHYSICALLY BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN.
MEN WILL DIE SPIRITUALLY BECAUSE OF THE UNFORGIVEN SINS THEY THEMSELVES COMMIT.
BABIES ARE BORN INNOCENT OF SIN.
BABIES ARE NOT DIRTY LITTLE SINNERS!
(All Scripture quotes from: NEW AMERICA STANDARD BIBLE)
Posted by Steve Finnell at 12:13 PM
You are invited to follow my Christian blog at: steve-finnell.blogspot.com or you may google search steve finnell a christian view.
Does your God condone stealing free advertising ?
We are all born into sin the reason Jesus didn't sin is because he is the word/Torah manifested. Jesus is not a regular human being he is god in the flesh, watch what you say because you blasphemed god, he is an example of what we should be
This is my experience... Thank you.
MY personal testimony.
A thought to consider without an ego response
I Accepted Jesus christ as my lord and saviour. You never know how soon is too late. Transcend the worldly illusion of enslavement.
The world denounces truth....
Accepting Jesus Christ (for me) resulted in something like seeng a new colour. You will see it .....but will not be able to clearly explain it to anyone else..... Its meant to be that way to transend any selfism within you.
Also... much the world arranges "surrounding dark matter into something to be debated" in such a way that protects/inflates the ego.
The key is be present and transcend our own desire to physically see evidence. We don't know anyways by defending our own perception of dark matter.
Currently.... most of us are constructing our own path that suits our sin lifestyle. Were all sinners. Knowing that we are is often an issue. But both christians and non are sinners. Even once we are saved by christs merciful grace we will still experience adversity to mold us to adhering to the truth.
We will slip... But not fall of the ship ...carrying us onward to perfection in christs grace.
We don't like to Let go and let god. We want control to some degree. This is what Jesus asks us to do. "Follow me".
It's the hardest thing to do... but is done by letting the truth of scripture lead you (redemptive revelation)... as I said .
Try reading corinthians and see if it makes sense to you. Try it without a pre conceived notion of it being a fairy tale.
See the truth...
do we do what it says in todays society... is it relevant... so many have not recently read and only hinge their philosophy on what they have heard from some other person...which may have been full of arogance pride or vanity..
Look closely at the economy ponzi, look at how society idolizes Lust , greed , envy, sloth, pride of life, desire for knowledge, desire for power, desire for revencge,gluttony with food etc .
Trancsend the temporal world.
Just think if you can find any truth you can take with you ....in any of these things. When you die your riches go to someone who will spend away your life..... You will be forgotten.... history will repeat iteslf.... the greatest minds knowledge fade or are eventually plagerzed..... your good deeds will be forgotten and only give you a fleeting temporary reward . your learned teachings are forgotten or mutated..... your gold is transfered back to the rullers that rule you through deception. Your grave will grow over . This is truth .
Trancsend your egoism and free yourself from this dominion of satan. Understand you are a sinner and part of the collective problem of this worldly matrix... Repent.... Repent means knowing (to change) The Holy spirit (within) will convict you beyond what you think you can do by yourself. Grace is given to those who renounce the world. That are" in" the world but not "of " the world.
Evidence follows faith. Faith does not follow evidence..... Faith ....above reason in Jesus Christ.
Faith comes by Reading or Hearing the word of god from the bible . Ask Jesus in faith for dicernment and start reading the new testament... You will be shocked when you lay down your preconceived notions and ....see and hear truth ... see how christ sets an example ... feel the truth....
Read Ecclesiastes. Read romans or corinthians.
You cant trancend your own egoism by adapting a world philosophy to suit your needs. Seek the truth in Christ.
Sell all your cleverness and purchase true bewilderment. You don't get what you want ....you get what you are by faith above reason in christ.
I promise this has been the truth for me. In Jesus christ .
Think of what you really have to lose. ...your ego?
Break the Matrix of illusion that holds your senses captive.
once you do . you too will have the wisdom of God that comes only through the Holy Spirit. Saved By grace through Faith. Just like seeing a new colour.... can't explain it to a transient caught in the matrix of worldly deception.
You will also see how the world suppresses this information and distorts it
You're all smart people . I tell the truth. Its hard to think out of the box when earthly thinking is the box.
I'ts a personal free experience you can do it free anytime . Don't wait till you are about to die.. START PUTTING YOUR TREASURES WHERE THEY REALLY MATTER >
Its awsome and It's just between you and Jesus
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved
Last eve I passed beside a blacksmith’s door,
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
The, looking in, I saw upon the floor
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.
“How many anvils have you had,” said I,
“To wear and batter all these hammers so?”
“Just one,” said he, and then with twinkling eye,
“The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.”
And so, thought I, the anvil of God’s Word,
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed – the hammers gone.
A sinner is one thing washed in the blood.
A sinner lost is another.
But a practicing sinner acting like a holy man is another thing.
And a sinner named CSX passing judgement, is another sin entirely. Calling someone a sinner for something that is no sin is in itself a sin.
It still cracks me up that HS thinks her posts are a means of saving others. Who would be influenced in any positive way by such posts? Why would anyone follow the advice of such a mean-spirited person, who sees nothing but hellfire and brimstone for anyone who doesn't believe exactly as she does?
Why would anyone listen to her? I surely won't.
Tom, some day you will outgrow this trash and burn mentality and grow to build. Jesus will assist you if you seek Him.
I'm laughing at LL's pleas to the moderator.
How sad for a religion that once resembled Christianity. All true values have left.
What values would those be?
I'm very impressed that the ELCA is progressive enough to see that change is coming. The days of forcing gay people out of the church are ending, and rightly so.
Everyone is welcome to church as long as they allow Jesus to renew their heart (mind) to His spiritual truth. How? By reading the letter He wrote to ALL (the Bible) and stop listening to tradition of men teachings that stroke your ego of what you want to hear instead of what He wants you to hear.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. .
Good to know that you support the ELCA in their efforts to include all, including gays.
Tom. as long as folks are willing to come out of denial to hear His truth. Which means read how He wants the best for us and stop listening to satan's lies being whispered in their ears every time they turn around in life. Jesus' truth vs satan's lies. Who is the parishioner going to focus on? Remember: It's easy to listen and abide in satan's lies. It takes courage to abide in Jesus' truth to begin the process of renewing your heart (mind). No instant gratification applications needed. Step by Step doing the work to get the righteous results..
According to my beliefs, Jesus and God love EVERYONE. Even the people you don't.
How many times Tom, do I have to tell you I don't hate anyone. Jesus tells us that we are to forgive others their trespasses (sins) against us in order for us to be forgiven by Him. You want to believe I do so your pride is quenched. Which is irrelevant to me, but, not to you until you allow Him to renew your heart (mind). Also, we speak two different languages ... spiritual vs carnal ... never shall the twain meet. I never asked Jesus for a lobotomy. I remember when people trespassed against me, but, I do not dwell on them. I can talk about them as lessons that I learned.
It doesn't matter what you "tell" me or anyone else. Your posts speak for themselves.
I don't "need" to do a thing, HS, just because you believe it to be so.
Your beliefs are yours, not mine. I don't fear you or your god. I know that I'm not in any peril at all, since this life is all there is. You have had to resort to falsehoods to make your points; therefore your points are invalid.
The real Tom, you posted "It doesn't matter what you "tell" me or anyone else. Your posts speak for themselves."
Answer: You read what you want to read instead of reading what you need to read. Again, Jesus' spiritual truth will renew your heart (aka mind).
You also posted "I don't "need" to do a thing, HS, just because you believe it to be so. Your beliefs are yours, not mine. I don't fear you or your god. I know that I'm not in any peril at all, since this life is all there is. You have had to resort to falsehoods to make your points; therefore your points are invalid."
Answer: To fear God means to learn His wisdom. His wisdom is spiritual truth. You see falsehoods because you see and hear carnally, not spiritually. Truth is carnal will not dwell with Jesus through spiritual eternity. My prayer for you Tom is that you find a preacher that lives in His truth to teach you:
If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
HS, you can threaten me with all the hellfire you wish. You aren't credible and I don't believe a word you say any longer. I don't believe what you claim is 'true' because you've said so little that is true by any standard that you've discredited yourself.
Your posts are nothing but empty threats.
And your wish for a preacher for me?
I wouldn't spend 2 seconds with a preacher who thinks as you do.
"For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person, such a person is an idolater-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" – Ephesians 5:5
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.