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Lutherans elect first openly gay bishop
The Rev. R. Guy Erwin was elected the first openly gay bishop in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America on May 31.
June 3rd, 2013
02:12 PM ET

Lutherans elect first openly gay bishop

By Dan Merica and Daniel Burke, CNN

(CNN)– For more than two decades, the Rev. R. Guy Erwin couldn't officially be a pastor in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. On Friday, he was elected a bishop.

Erwin's election signals a shift not only for the ELCA – the nation's seventh largest church – but also for American Christianity. Only one other mainline Protestant denomination, the Episcopal Church, has elected openly gay and lesbian bishops.

“In these days such milestones seem to be coming at an ever-faster rate," Erwin told CNN, "and eventually what seems revolutionary now will seem normal and predictable."

With more than 4 million members in 10,000 congregations, the ELCA is the largest of several Lutheran denominations in the United States. The ELCA's decision to allow gay clergy has strained ties between those denominations, some of whom have partnered for relief work.

"The ELCA is a church that belongs to Christ, and there is a place for all here," said church spokeswoman Melissa Ramirez Cooper. "The election of Pastor Erwin illustrates what many in the 4-million-member church believe - that God calls each of us by name.”

The ELCA lifted its ban on openly gay, partnered clergy in 2009, clearing the way for pastors like Erwin, but angering conservatives. By some estimates, some 600 congregations have since left the ELCA for more conservative churches.

The Rev. W. Stevens Shipman, director of the Lutheran Coalition for Renewal, said the ELCA is not keeping promises it made in 2009 to respect the views of churches and individuals who regard homosexuality as a sin.

"The promise was also made publicly that no congregation would be required to call a pastor in a same-sex partnership," Shipman said, "but now an entire synod has been forced to live under the authority of a bishop who is in such a relationship."

Erwin, a scholar at California Lutheran University, will serve a six-year term representing the Southwest California Synod, a five-county area that includes Los Angeles. His election took place an annual three-day assembly in Woodland Hills, California.

Erwin, who was ordained a pastor in 2011, played down his election as the ELCA's first openly gay bishop. But acknowledged that his very “existence” was a symbol for broader acceptance.

“The work of a bishop in our church is to lift up the church's message of grace and peace in the wider society, to administer the church's work in our area, and to teach and preach,” Erwin said in an e-mail to CNN. “In this regard, the sexual orientation of the bishop may not be very important.”

Still, the bishop-elect said, “The very fact I exist will be a signal to others that GLBT folks are respected and have a full place in our church.” Erwin is also part Osage Indian and is active in the Osage Indian Nation, according to the ELCA.

Erwin’s election symbolizes a noticeable change for a church that once banned clergy who were in same-sex relationships, said Ross Murray, director of news and Faith initiatives at GLAAD.

Prior to the 2009 change, “hundreds of gay and lesbian clergy were forced out of congregations or served under secrecy,” Murray said.

“Dr. Erwin demonstrates how far the ECLA has come with LGBT inclusion,” said Murray in an e-mail to CNN. “He could not have been ordained just four years ago, and now he is a leader for the church. It makes me proud as a gay man, and as a Lutheran.”

Although the ELCA church did not allow clergy in same-sex relationships while he was attending seminary, Erwin  said that he “always believed that this would someday be possible.”

Erwin also said the church's 2009 change in policy was more of a "culmination of God's work" than a "start of something new."

Erwin has long been a board member of Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries, a Lutheran group that advocates for the 130 openly gay Lutheran clergy who are members.

Amalia Vagts, the group’s executive director, said Erwin’s election was an “amazing day” for openly gay and lesbian Lutherans.

“This is a powerful message for LGBT people everywhere that the Lutheran church welcomes them,” Vagts said in an e-mail.

- Dan Merica

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Church • Gay rights • Homosexuality • Lutheran

soundoff (1,122 Responses)
  1. Alias

    I just don't understand why the gays are such a big deal to the christians.
    Even if they want to think it is a sin, why ignore all the other sins and freak out over this one?

    June 4, 2013 at 11:18 am |
    • Pete

      Because they can't acknowledge that we've had several adulteress presidents, presidents that were liars, a country that is full of greed and gluttony proving their religion is a joke.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:22 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Stupid question.
      It is unnatural. It is disgusting, and people shouldn't do it!

      June 4, 2013 at 11:24 am |
    • .

      "It is unnatural. It is disgusting, and people shouldn't do it!"

      YeahRight

      Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 4, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • Pete

      "It is unnatural."

      Bill can't handle the fact that it's been proven natural and he's wrong.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:26 am |
    • Notsomuch

      Bill, you're unnatural.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:27 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Dill Beacon offers his opinion and thinks that that makes his bigotry OK.

      He is of course incorrect when he says it is not natural. But then he defends one of the most corrupt and evil organizations of the world, so take his opinion for what it is wotrth, which is nothing unless you are from the 16th century.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:28 am |
    • Ken

      Bill Deacon
      How do you figure that it's unnatural? Do we have any truly wild humans to study, ones without any religion or organized society? As it is, h0m0se xual behavior in humans has been observed all over the world. If you saw foxes, or any other creature doing something everywhere they live wouldn't you think that it's natural?

      June 4, 2013 at 11:34 am |
    • Huebert

      Bill

      So because you think something is ickey no one should ever do it. Tell me how does one become the arbitrator of ickey? There some things I would like to at to the list, starting with religion and people talking in movie theaters.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • Don

      "Stupid question.
      It is unnatural. It is disgusting, and people shouldn't do it!"

      No Bill what is unnatural is your brainwashed mentality, you've been conditioned to believe it's unnatural even though that is not the truth. The fact you are not willing to step back and look at yourself, your hatred, your bigotry towards others reveals your shallowness.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:39 am |
    • Madtown

      Bill Deacon
      Stupid question.
      It is unnatural.
      ----
      Is it also unnatural in the animal kingdom, where similar behavior is observed?

      June 4, 2013 at 11:46 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      phony Bill Deacon. It's interesting though how this represents kind of a microcosm of how Catholic teaching has been distorted by misrepresentations throughout history that people subsequently jump onto. All sort of teachings such as Eucharist, marriage, sin, trinity, they've all been distorted into straw men to the point most people argue against what they think the Church stands for, or even worse bad representatives of the faith, rather than what the Church really is. From which point the argument ensues over the misstatement and the original teaching is washed away in the false controversy.

      Any one who wants to know what the Church teaches, should refer to the catechism. Not their aunt who is a nun, not what they remember from when they were in parochial school, not even their priest or the pope. The catechism is the definitive statement on the interpretation of the Holy Scripture, as discerned by the magisterium. It has more to say about Lutherans than it does about hom0s3xuals.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:52 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Madtown, you'll never hear me argue that it is unnatural. It is, or course, precisely natural. That is the point. We are called to rise above our nature into Christian life. This is the root of the conflict between Christianity and materialism. Materialism states that man and the things he can see and touch are the ultimate expression of reality. Christianity states that there exists something behind the veil of temporary existence. Further, Christianity stipulates that by exerting control over our "nature" that we may perceive the eternal. So arguing that any behavior is "natural" is not really a defense of it from a Christian perspective. Of course your nature is towards fleshly gratification. But aren't you more than an animal?

      June 4, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • .

      " Of course your nature is towards fleshly gratification. But aren't you more than an animal?"

      YeahRight

      The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      Like their heterosexual counterparts, many gay and lesbian people want to form stable, long-lasting, committed relationships. Indeed, many of them do and that large proportions are currently involved in such a relationship and that a substantial number of those couples have been together 10 or more years.

      Research demonstrates that the psychological and social aspects of committed relationships between same-sex partners closely resemble those of heterosexual partnerships. Like heterosexual couples, same-sex couples form deep emotional attachments and commitments. Heterosexual and same-sex couples alike face similar issues concerning intimacy, love, equity, loyalty, and stability, and they go through similar processes to address those issues. Research examining the quality of intimate relationships also shows that gay and lesbian couples have levels of relationship satisfaction similar to or higher than those of heterosexual couples.

      A large number of gay and lesbian couples raise children. Children and teenagers whose parents provide loving guidance in the context of secure home environments are more likely to flourish – and this is just as true for children of same-sex parents as it is for children of opposite-sex parents. Based on research findings, mental health professionals have also reached a consensus that the quality of relationships among significant adults in a child’s or adolescent’s life is associated with adjustment. When relationships between parents are characterized by love, warmth, cooperation, security, and mutual support, children and adolescents are more likely to show positive adjustment. In contrast, when relationships between parents are conflict-ridden and acrimonious, the adjustment of children and adolescents is likely to be less favorable. These correlations are just as true for children of same-sex parents as for children of opposite-sex parents.

      Assertions that heterosexual couples are inherently better parents than same sex couples, or that the children of lesbian or gay parents fare worse than children of heterosexual parents, have no support in the scientific research literature. On the contrary, the scientific research that has directly compared outcomes for children with gay and lesbian parents with outcomes for children with heterosexual parents has consistently shown that the former are as fit and capable as the latter and that their children are as psychologically healthy and well adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
    • Dave

      @Bill Gays and lesbians have stable loving relationships; they have families just like straight couples do. They work hard, they pay their taxes and they are just as moral as everyone else. There are straights that participate in "fleshy gratifications" such as prostitution, sex out of wedlock, adultery but here you are trying to condemn all of the gays and lesbians. I am friends with many Christian gay and lesbian couples that are welcomed in our church, raising wonderful children just like their straight counter parts. Your judgment and condemnation of these people is not representative of Christ.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • Huebert

      Bill
      " That is the point. We are called to rise above our nature into Christian life. "

      Why would a god create us with one nature and then command, on pain of eternal torture, that we behave contrary to said nature?

      June 4, 2013 at 12:08 pm |
    • see through the hypocrisy

      Bill: "Madtown, you'll never hear me argue that it is unnatural. It is, or course, precisely natural. That is the point. We are called to rise above our nature into Christian life."

      (Back to Bill's atti-tude that Catholic straight couples never enjoy se-x, only perform it to procreate, thereby justifying that it is to be reserved by his god just for that club. –right, Bill.)

      June 4, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
    • Madtown

      We are called to rise above our nature into Christian life
      -----
      Ok, maybe. But, that just invokes my more simple, basic point of logic, in that you have to have access to christianity to be "called" into it. Other cultures transition into a different religious following, and believe they are following God's calling, just as you believe.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Dave, to be clear, I'm not condemning any one group over the other. I'm saying that all these aberrations you mention are symptomatic of a worldly outlook that encourages mankind to seek glorification of self. It's reached epidemic proportions of entiitlement in this country to the point most people have lost a frame of reference on the continuum of subjective morality. Again, I'd direct you to the catechism to read what the Church says about some of the things you mention. Many of them are treated much more harshly than hom0s3xuality.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:21 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Yes, madtown and I have told you that the Church recognizes that people who do not have benefit of the Gospel are still called by God into holiness by the nature of God's grace. Your argument doesn't really exist other than in your deck of misprinted cards.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:23 pm |
    • sam stone

      "It is unnatural. It is disgusting, and people shouldn't do it!"

      Sounds like religion, Billy Boy

      June 4, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
    • sam stone

      "We are called to rise above our nature into Christian life"

      You call Christianity rising above nature?

      Amazing......

      June 4, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Huebert and hypocrisy are illustrating my point further. read the catechism on hell Huebert and tell me who is responsible for selecting whether you go to heaven or hell.

      Hyp, in John Paul II's theology of the body, he describes the fulfillment of the three forms of love, agape, filial and eros that culminate in the act of seexual union between partners in sacramental marriages. You have been deluded into thinking that rampant gratification without commitment is pleasurable but while that may seem natural to you, interview the mulitiitudes of people who have been left dejected, abandoned or aborted or with some disease as the product of that deception. Contrast that with couples who enjoy fidelity, security, intimacy and freedom within the context for which it was designed.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
    • Science

      The pearly gates are a JOKE billy !!!

      June 4, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      sam, you're another who doesn't seem to understand the roots of what you are talking about and only approach topics from a modernist perspective. Did you ever read the Bonhoeffer? A basic tenet of Christianity which differentiates it from paganism is the concept of man's dominion of nature, both externally and internally. This is the foundation upon which scientific philosophy is based.

      Since God is transcendent above the natural world, to study nature and tinker with her secrets is not an act of irreverence. As such, surprisingly enough, it was the Judeo-Christian worldview which removed the superstiitions of the pagan universe and opened wide the door of scientific investigation.

      Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/10/the_greens_religion_and_science.html#ixzz2VGYqoJgc
      Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

      June 4, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Pete

      " Contrast that with couples who enjoy fidelity, security, intimacy and freedom within the context for which it was designed."

      Gays and lesbians enjoy fidelity, security, intimacy and freedom within the context that they were designed too, since being gay is totally natural.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • Huebert

      Bill

      So you are saying it is my responsibility to overcome the nature your god gave me in order to stay out of the hell that he created?

      Additionally, I'm happily married, but before that I was happily single and receiving "rampant gratification without commitment" and I gotta' tell you both are pleasurable.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
    • Happy Atheist

      "read the catechism on hell Huebert and tell me who is responsible for selecting whether you go to heaven or hell."

      Thats the problem Bill, you believe in something I don't acknkowledge even exists so you fret over yourself or others going to an imaginary place of torment and thus push your imagination on others believing you are helping in some warped way. I understand that fidelity is one of the most important parts of a happy relationship, I have been with two people in my life, and I was married to both and have never been unfaithful. I happen to be married to a woman because that is who i'm attracted to, but that doesn't mean a gay couple can't have the same thing I have. Once you get rid of the imaginary horror of heIIfire and recognize that "traditional" marriage has a 50% fail rate so there is no reason to deny anyone wanting to try for the 50% success rate.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • redzoa

      "It is unnatural. It is disgusting, and people shouldn't do it!"

      Whenever I see statements like this, I'm reminded of the following study . . .

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

      June 4, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • see through the hypocrisy

      Again, Bill justifies the club with club rules (in no way proving the existence of any objective moral truth). Again, Bill makes assumptions about the purposes of other people – attempting to answer for them; only clinging to any negative view he can throw on disenfranchised people whose greatest potential via extended familial equality has yet to be realized. And in the end, Bill again circles back to the unproven club rules with "within the context for which it was designed". Nothing new here.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • sam stone

      Bill: God is a myth

      June 4, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Science,if I were you I'd be more interested in the key than the gate.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      So Huebert, you never regret that the one thing you could have saved to give only to your wife has been all up and down the street just for the kicks it gave you? How special.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      You made the assertion sam. Prove it.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
    • Madtown

      people who do not have benefit of the Gospel are still called by God into holiness by the nature of God's grace
      -----
      Maybe. But, these people certainly aren't Catholic, and that's the entire point that you won't admit. Your chosen way is not representative of truth. Your chosen way is not the "best and only way". Your chosen way is simply your chosen way. No better or worse than other humans chosen ways.

      June 4, 2013 at 12:57 pm |
    • Bah! Humbug!

      “S'ex: the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable.” - Lord Chesterfield

      June 4, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • Pete

      "So Huebert, you never regret that the one thing you could have saved to give only to your wife has been all up and down the street just for the kicks it gave you? How special."

      There is so much more to a relationship than just sex dude. Being a virgin when you get married is not that special when it comes to a life time commitment. If you think it does then you have no idea what a healthy long term committed relationship is all about.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • derp

      "Why would a god create us with one nature and then command, on pain of eternal torture, that we behave contrary to said nature?"

      Because Bill's magic man in the sky is a whining petulant dick.

      Funny that his church finds s e x to be perfectly acceptable, as long as it fits inside their neat little box. (Or is between a priest and a boy).

      June 4, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Happy, It's fine if you don't believe in hell but it's not me whose worried about going there. Huebert is the one who brought it up. I merely point out the error of his claim. As an experiment, presume for a moment that God exists. Eternity with him is heaven, without him is hell. It's that simple and you get to choose. When you reject the very being of God you are choosing. But, you cannot logically say that God exists and he sends people to hell, because he doesn't. They choose to go.

      I'm happy for your success in relationships but I have to tell you that no matter how many governments "approve" gaay marriage, it will never be the same as what you have with your wife. It may approach what Huebert has with his though.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • .

      "I'm happy for your success in relationships but I have to tell you that no matter how many governments "approve" gaay marriage, it will never be the same as what you have with your wife. It may approach what Huebert has with his though."

      YeahRight

      The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      Like their heterosexual counterparts, many gay and lesbian people want to form stable, long-lasting, committed relationships. Indeed, many of them do and that large proportions are currently involved in such a relationship and that a substantial number of those couples have been together 10 or more years.

      Research demonstrates that the psychological and social aspects of committed relationships between same-sex partners closely resemble those of heterosexual partnerships. Like heterosexual couples, same-sex couples form deep emotional attachments and commitments. Heterosexual and same-sex couples alike face similar issues concerning intimacy, love, equity, loyalty, and stability, and they go through similar processes to address those issues. Research examining the quality of intimate relationships also shows that gay and lesbian couples have levels of relationship satisfaction similar to or higher than those of heterosexual couples.

      A large number of gay and lesbian couples raise children. Children and teenagers whose parents provide loving guidance in the context of secure home environments are more likely to flourish – and this is just as true for children of same-sex parents as it is for children of opposite-sex parents. Based on research findings, mental health professionals have also reached a consensus that the quality of relationships among significant adults in a child’s or adolescent’s life is associated with adjustment. When relationships between parents are characterized by love, warmth, cooperation, security, and mutual support, children and adolescents are more likely to show positive adjustment. In contrast, when relationships between parents are conflict-ridden and acrimonious, the adjustment of children and adolescents is likely to be less favorable. These correlations are just as true for children of same-sex parents as for children of opposite-sex parents.

      Assertions that heterosexual couples are inherently better parents than same sex couples, or that the children of lesbian or gay parents fare worse than children of heterosexual parents, have no support in the scientific research literature. On the contrary, the scientific research that has directly compared outcomes for children with gay and lesbian parents with outcomes for children with heterosexual parents has consistently shown that the former are as fit and capable as the latter and that their children are as psychologically healthy and well adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Pete, I couldn't agree with you more. Chesterfield, now there's a wit. Madtown, the Catholic Church states that to know of her and remain outside her precludes salvation. You've been talking about people that never heard the Gospel and don't know the Church. That's two different groups of people.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • derp

      "you never regret that the one thing you could have saved to give only to your wife"

      If that is the only unique thing about you that you offer your wife, being married to you must sick as much as it would appear based on your posts here.

      Let me guess, it's missionary for you with the lights out, and no oral?

      When you are ready for your wife to be truly satisfied, I'll send you my address.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Dot, you took a lot of paragraphs to tell us that you're argument is based on materialism. We've already covered that the basis for hom0s3xual marriage is rooted in that.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Pete

      "God exists. Eternity with him is heaven, without him is hell. It's that simple and you get to choose. When you reject the very being of God you are choosing. But, you cannot logically say that God exists and he sends people to hell, because he doesn't. They choose to go."

      So your god is an unforgiving prick. By the way Bill since only 30% of people on this planet believe in your God, that means 70% or over 4.9 billion people will burn in your god's hell for eternity. Yup, your god is a dick and one evil dude.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Well derp, when my wife was alive, we enjoyed a deeply satisfying and long intimate relationship. I'm sure if you could get the SCOTUS to approve of it that you would find a way to satisfy yourself with her now though.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
    • Science

      Billie ..............no horn-t red beast never has been no need for a fvcking key !

      So RB.....chadie too..........truth is best told to children is it not ?

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/31/southern-baptists-to-urge-churches-and-members-to-cut-boy-scout-ties/comment-page-150/#comment-2397535

      June 4, 2013 at 12:29 pm |

      June 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • UhOh

      "Dot, you took a lot of paragraphs to tell us that you're argument is based on materialism."

      Another xtian lying for their God. Sorry Bill but a great majority of gays and lesbians are Christians so it doesn't fit the definition of materialism.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Alias

      Bill said,
      The catechism is the definitive statement on the interpretation of the Holy Scripture, as discerned by the magisterium

      Who are these people, and what makes them so insightful?
      Why should they know better than everyone else?

      June 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      You make two errors Pete. When you are the one making the choice how does that make God the pr1ck? You are choosing not to be with Him and that is the definition of hell. You chose.

      Secondly arguments ad populi fail.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • midwest rail

      A gross generalization that of course in no way applie to str8 marriage..... (eye roll)

      June 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Science

      oops ......... NO horn-y red beast !

      June 4, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
    • Glorification of Self

      BD, amazing comment from you. Next to chad, you are the most arrogant, pompous, pontificating know it all on this blog. The funny part, it is not even your own thoughts but that of the catechism. You must be quite the embarras.sment to your archdiocese.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Good question Alias. You admit that you don't know how the catechism and the Catholic teaching has developed. Good for you. You can google the magisterium if you like but I can tell you that it is essentially the body of knowledge gathered from the inception of the Church which is under the stewardship of the pope and the bishop. You might say it is the sum total of Christian philosophy. So when people say the new pope is "going to change things", they demonstrate a lack of knowledge about what the position entails.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • Pete

      "Secondly arguments ad populi fail."

      Only in your head dude, it's called facts and the fact you can't acknowledge that 4.9 billion people will end up in your so called God's hell for eternity proves the stupidity of your religion.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Self, I would think as often as atheists are called out for name calling that one would attach a rebuttal of the argument. Unless, of course you have none.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
    • Happy Atheist

      "As an experiment, presume for a moment that God exists. Eternity with him is heaven, without him is hell."

      Which God? There are over 33,000 different denominations of Christianity alone not to mention all the thousands of other religions and sects. Which one is the right way to worship Bill? I just don't think i'm ready to presume that much. I have to presume a certain God exists then imagine myself being with him which is a good thing even though that is far from certain, and being away from him (it's got a penis right Bill?) is terrible and horrible but i can only imagine in terms of this physical body that can be burned and hurt and tortured, but the spirit has to be something like that too right? Spirit nerve endings firing as they are burned with spirit fire, right Bill? It sure takes a lot of work imagining all these things. And then there is no guarantee that I got the right one either right Bill? If I pick the Jehovas Witnesses do I still burn? Its that simple eh Bill? You are as deluded as they come. Of all the 33,000 denominations I have studied about half a dozen and all I can say for sure is that none of them had any evidence for their God and the one that had the most blood on it's hands was the Catholic Church so that is the last denomination I would ever pick if I was forced to choose a religion. Thankfully I live in the US where you are not forced to choose a religion, sure some try but we have a safety net thank our founders.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Science

      I do billie ................and ADAM and EVE suck the big one !

      June 4, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      No Pete. Arguments based on popularity is a classic failure of logic. Look it up. Secondly, I cannot acknowledge how many people will be in heaven or hell because I only get to choose for one person.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • redzoa

      The notion that "choice" can coexist with an omniscient first cause creator is one of the silliest contradictions apologists love to fumble over. If the creator perfectly knew every human "choice" prior to the act of creation, then every human "choice" is simply conforming to the a priori perfect foreknowledge and humans could not actually "chose" a path which would contradict this perfect foreknowledge, i.e. no "free will." In other words, the creator's perfect foreknowledge prior to creation amounts to an unalterable script which humans are bound to follow (whether we know it or not). If humans could actually go off-script, then the creator is no longer omniscient.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
    • nope

      "I'm happy for your success in relationships but I have to tell you that no matter how many governments "approve" gaay marriage, it will never be the same as what you have with your wife."

      Again Bill shows his stupidity. The facts and research have proven their relationships are the same as straight couples, but for you to admit this would mean your wrong and your ego couldn't handle it.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Doesn't matter which God atheist. We're talking about refusing eternity with the divine. Not the specific name of the God you refuse. Call him Alfred for all I care. The point is he doesn't send you anywhere, you choose.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
    • Pete

      "No Pete. Arguments based on popularity is a classic failure of logic. Look it up."

      It's not based on popularity idiot its based on the pew studies on religion, look it up.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      nope, The research and conclusions of the Catholic Church don't support your conclusions. Hence we are in disagreement.

      redzoa. OK, have it your way. It's God's omnipotent will that you should be with him in eternal glory. What say you?

      June 4, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
    • Pete

      " Call him Alfred for all I care. The point is he doesn't send you anywhere, you choose."

      Fear has always been the greatest selling tool in history and Bill has fallen for it hook, line a sinker. We've got a big sucker on the pole folks!

      June 4, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
    • Pete

      "The research and conclusions of the Catholic Church don't support your conclusions"

      Ok this stupid comment takes the cake now doesn't it. LMAO! LOL! LOL! The research and conclusions of the Catholic church are bias and prejudice that isn't based on any real facts, especially since the bible has been proven NOT to be an historical document.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
    • Based on marerialism....

      Pssst! Bill, just so you know the Vatican has been based on materialism for 1700 years or so, didn't you notice?

      June 4, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Bill D.
      "I'm happy for your success in relationships but I have to tell you that no matter how many governments "approve" gaay marriage, it will never be the same as what you have with your wife"

      Again...opinion. You do not know that. Once again the holier than none, arrogant opinion of Bill, well Bill said it so it must be true.

      Go help your priests hide more of the corruption in your church Bill. They love it when the blind deaf and dumb sheep help them.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Atheist, as I've told you, it's perfectly acceptable to me that you have no God. I'm merely trying to get you to try a thought experiment to show you how "God sends people to hell" is not logically possible and that thought is not supported by Church dogma. Therefore to use it as an argument against the existence of God is not logically sustainable. Not only is it not what we teach, it doesn't even make sense.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Sorry Head but, a sacramental marriage between a man and a woman is a mirror image of Christ and His bride. There is no other way.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Huebert

      Bill

      Virginity is nothing special. I was not my wife's first, and she was not mine. Neither of us are bothered by this, because we are each others last. It's not like the first time is magical or anything, it's awkward, painful for the girl and over to quickly for the guy.

      And you never answered my question. Why is it my responsibility to overcome my nature that your god gave me, in order to avoid the hell that he created?

      June 4, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      mareialism ( or however you spell it) I presume you know the difference between materialism and materialistic, but I could be wrong.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Sorry Huebert, that's a legitimate question. The answer is that it's not your responsibility. It's your opportunity. Your responsibility is to suffer the consequences of sin.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • midwest rail

      "...between a man and a woman is a mirror image of Christ and His bride. There is no other way. "
      Yeah, those mirror images like Rushbo's 4, Liz Taylor's 8, Britney's 47 minute special, ad nauseum........yep, mirror images.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Oh and I almost let that one by. But, again, it isn't God that creates hell. Hell, by definition is the eternal absence of God. You create it.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
    • redzoa

      If it's God's omnipotent will that I be with Him in heaven, then I really wouldn't have a "choice" in the matter. But for the record, the contradiction of "free will" and first cause creator omniscience isn't "my way," it's your way. I'm just pointing out that you can't blame individuals for making a "choice" by claiming their "choice" defies the unalterable script laid out by your preferred omniscient first cause creator. You can certainly argue "free will" exists; but you can't do so while simultaneously contending there exists an omniscient first cause creator. Furthermore, regarding omnipotence, can your God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift?

      June 4, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
    • Actually Paranoid Bill

      People ARE against you because of your arguments without substance. Saying that is what is said in the bible or the catechism applies only to deluded Christians and RCC suckers.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
    • Donald

      " I'm merely trying to get you to try a thought experiment to show you how "God sends people to hell" is not logically possible and that thought is not supported by Church dogma. "

      Do you really think in this vast universe made up of millions of galaxies that a god of any sort really gives a rats ass about you. You are nothing but an atom in a grain of sand compared to the vastness of the universe. It would be like you caring about all the ants on this planet, which of course you don't and you won't take the time to either.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      midwest falls into the trap of arguing against bad representatives as I noted in like my first paragraph. I would point to his comment as evidence of the skewed perspective of our general society if he thinks those marriages are representative of the sacrament. Admittedly, Christians do a disservice to the Gospel when they fall but only because it draws attention to us rather than to Christ.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Donald, it's not important to me whether God considers me or not. It's important to me that I consider Him.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
    • CA Boy

      I got married in Sacramento, does that count?

      June 4, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • HeavenSent

      Romans 8:7

      Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      Amen.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
    • Huebert

      Bill

      Yes I do know the difference between materialism and materialistic, but I would like to hear your definition just to be sure we are on the same page.

      Thank you for answering. So you are saying that while your god may not send us to hell, he does in fact stack the deck in favor of that outcome.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
    • midwest rail

      No, Bill, I point them out as typical hypocrites – sorta like you.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • Pete

      "Sorry Head but, a sacramental marriage between a man and a woman is a mirror image of Christ and His bride. There is no other way."

      The fact you are conveniently leaving out is people are created gay, they have gay relationships, there are many gay Christian couples who are married within their churches. It's why Bill's going to be shocked when he's in hell instead of heaven for all the hate and prejudice he's been preaching.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Paranoid. That is exactly my point. I don't care whether other people accept the teaching or not. But I deplore the ignorance they show for the material as justification for rejecting it. I think these numerous response show that most atheists don't know sh1t from shinola when it comes to what the Church actually teaches.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • LMAO!

      " So you are saying that while your god may not send us to hell, he does in fact stack the deck in favor of that outcome."

      What Bill is leaving out is the bible is their rule book, if you break the rules you also will go to hell. There will be many Christians that will also end up in their hell for not following the rules! LMAO!

      June 4, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Huebert using multiple names? I guess that keeps the wife guessing too huh?

      June 4, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
    • Pete

      " I think these numerous response show that most atheists don't know sh1t from shinola when it comes to what the Church actually teaches."

      Wrong, a pew study in 2010 showed atheists know more about religion than Christians.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      LMAO you just made the classic statement from ignorance. Congratulations brother. You've made my point. You've been lead to believe that by someone somewhere but that is not a factual statement on your part. Kinda sad but kinda funny too.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Bill
      Jesus and his wife...
      Yeah I have seen the sick ceremony you call first communion...all those little child brides of christ, just another one of those sick rituals of your sick corrupt religion. Disgusting.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • midwest rail

      " midwest falls into the trap of arguing against bad representatives .."
      And yet on these very forums, Bill once claimed that the priests responsible for the abuse scandal weren't really priests, rather they were just "posers wearing the uniform". Yep, hypocrite.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
    • LMAO!

      "LMAO you just made the classic statement from ignorance. Congratulations brother. You've made my point. You've been lead to believe that by someone somewhere but that is not a factual statement on your part. Kinda sad but kinda funny too."

      No Bill it shows your ignorance of the scriptures.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Huebert

      I only use the one name, and I would prefer it if you would refrain from any comments about my wife, thank you.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
    • Actually Paranoid Bill

      Well Bill you are getting very Chad like. If I were to state that I was brainwashed, smacked up the side of the head for not knowing my catechism by some sadistic teacher/Nun, would you then acknowledge I was forced to learn the BS? And Bill I do not think you know sh!t from shinola about anything other than your get out of jail card, the RCC. The simple fact that you cannot understand Bill is there are billions of people that don't give a sh!t what your religion or pope has to say from the history of ugliness of the church which you chose to overlook. The Ratzinger was lying his ass off as pope, do you condone that?

      June 4, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      "Your responsibility is to suffer the consequences of sin."

      Wow, such a wonderful sentiment coming from someone who claims to be a 'good' christian!
      They've done nothing wrong. Sin only exists in your belief system and obviously not everyone agrees with you.
      AtheistSteve, who you obviously have seen here is my common-law husband. We've been together for 4 wonderful years with no intention of getting married. I have a 19 year old daughter from a previous relationship. As with Huebert and his wife, we are not each others first but we will be each others last.
      We are not doing anything that oh so many christians do and if you don't think christians are having sex outside of marriage, you are a bigger fool than once thought. Christians have the highest rate of divorce...do you think those people are not dating? Sex is not such a dirty thing regardless of what you have been mislead to believe. It is purely natural.
      So get over it and keep your nose out of the private lives of others. It's not for you to judge what they do.

      June 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • sam stone

      Bill: I cannot prove my assertion any more than you can prove yours

      June 4, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
    • sam stone

      " I think these numerous response show that most atheists don't know sh1t from shinola when it comes to what the Church actually teaches."

      Why should we?

      June 4, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
    • In case you missed it....

      Truth Prevails
      Bill confessed on April 7 2013 on this blog that he committed murder. Now Bill needed to confess and seek redemption, so it was natural for him to hop into the RCC confessional and beg and get forgiveness in his own mind. So now he is not only a "good Christian" but a pontificator of all that is holy. Learn from the wisdom of the born again sinner!!

      June 4, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
    • Alias

      Bill

      The only objection you have to gay marriage is that it doesn't fit your religious beliefs, right?

      June 4, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
    • In case you missed it....

      Correction.
      Bill's confession was April 20. 2013 @ 10:47AM, Religious- become evil-topic.

      June 4, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • Madtown

      Madtown, the Catholic Church states that to know of her and remain outside her precludes salvation
      -------
      In other words, your chosen way is the "only" way, the "right" way, "God's endorsed" way. Sheer arrogance.

      June 4, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • Huh?

      In case you missed it....
      "Bill's confession was April 20. 2013 @ 10:47AM, Religious- become evil-topic."

      That article wasn't even published until April 28 - maybe you can try again...?

      June 4, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
    • In case you missed it....

      Huh?
      Right should have been April 29 post by faith 9:54 AM reply by Bill at 10:47 AM. My bad hit 0 instead of 9.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
    • midwest rail

      As expected, Bill won't confront the black and white evidence of his hypocrisy – he's just moved on to a new thread where he will continue being himself, sadly.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • Huh?

      In case you missed it....

      Not finding it - there are 44 freakin pages there! - spot checked a few... no soap.

      June 4, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
    • In case you missed ...

      Huh?
      Weird kept getting an error report. Page 31.

      June 4, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
  2. Notsomuch

    As a gay man that grew up in a religious household and even completed a mormon mission, I've always wondered how gay men and women can stay with a religion that refuses to accept them as equals. Kudos to the Lutheran church for starting the process to some equalization, but I still say that it's hard to believe in a god that doesn't like his own children that he created in his own image.

    June 4, 2013 at 10:17 am |
    • Vic

      Galatians 3:28
      "28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

      New American Standard Bible (NASB)
      http://www.biblegateway.com/

      Don't confuse people's interpretation/position on issues with the truth about Christianity! People get wrong a lot of the times!

      June 4, 2013 at 10:22 am |
    • Science

      Dear Mr. and Mrs. Troll...... .........chad/Rachel ....vickietoo...........trolling does not work in the sand...........
      .
      will not catch fish that way !

      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/14/vatican-swaps-old-masters-for-modernity-with-venice-biennale-debut/?replytocom=2343268#respond

      Hey ...........kiddies................stuff bellow is the truth ...........no dino in the what chadie ?

      Scientists Find Oldest Dinosaur – Or Closest Relative Yet

      Dec. 5, 2012 — Researchers have discovered what may be the earliest dinosaur, a creature the size of a Labrador retriever, but with a five foot-long tail, that walked the Earth about 10 million years before more familiar dinosaurs like the small, swift-footed Eoraptor and Herrerasaurus.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121205084421.htm

      June 4, 2013 at 10:28 am |
    • JamesK

      Vic
      All we have are people claiming to be Christians giving their interpretation/position on issues. There is no outside "truth" to point to, is there? 10,000 denominations with a lot of variance between individuals in each of them, and none of them can prove that their position is the only correct one. Why do people have any confidence in this at all, I wonder?

      June 4, 2013 at 10:32 am |
    • sam stone

      "Don't confuse people's interpretation/position on issues with the truth about Christianity! People get wrong a lot of the times!"

      We are aware of the truth about christianity. That is why we are not christians

      Go ahead, post more scriptures if it makes you feel all godly

      June 4, 2013 at 10:37 am |
    • Vic

      @JamesK "....."

      A very legit notion!

      Everyone wants to be saved; that's why people care; that's all what matters!

      Faith Alone Is To Heaven (FAITH)

      Claim Your FREE PASS
      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/11/my-take-gay-christian-is-not-an-oxymoron/comment-page-3/#comment-2337379

      June 4, 2013 at 10:44 am |
    • -

      Vic = Chad

      June 4, 2013 at 10:45 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Everyone wants to be saved? I don't know what you mean, Vic. I don't believe in hell or that there can be anything eternal about any of us. You really are caught up in your religion, blinders on with regard to what others believe, feel, and want.

      June 4, 2013 at 10:49 am |
    • sam stone

      vic: interesting that you want to spend eternity with a being from whom you have to be "saved". it seems sort of like a spiritual stockholm syndrome. do you worship because god is all loving, or are you afraid of the pr1ck?

      June 4, 2013 at 10:51 am |
    • JamesK

      Vic
      Saved from what, exactly? While I believe that human nature very often leads all of us to do hurtful things against others, I don't believe that believing that Jesus was divine actually helps curb that tendency. If you're talking about heaven and hell, then wasn't it God who created both of these things? Thanking God for "saving" you from hell is like thanking a trapper for letting you out of a trap he put in your path. Why should anyone be thankful for that?

      June 4, 2013 at 11:10 am |
    • Vic

      When I look around (universe & life) I know (meaning believe) there is a God!

      Now, from all the claims out there, Jesus Christ is the ONLY that makes sense to me. I feel His Truth & Presence & Love ever since I accepted Him as Lord and my personal Savior (Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.)

      Now, God is very legal; no unholiness enters Heaven.
      Now, no man can be holy, and no man can earn his/her salvation.

      God so loved the world that He intervened with the Ultimate Measure & gave us the required holiness through Jesus Christ.

      John 3:16
      "16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

      New American Standard Bible (NASB)
      http://www.biblegateway.com/

      Plain and Simple.

      June 4, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • LinCA

      @JamesK

      You said, "Thanking God for "saving" you from hell is like thanking a trapper for letting you out of a trap he put in your path."
      Considering that this god was apparently able and willing to create hell, I suspect that heaven only looks better. Who knows, maybe every christian that falls for the ruse and earns a spot in heaven is put to work in the salt mines, or the sex trade, as soon as they arrive (those 72 virgins have to come from somewhere, right).

      June 4, 2013 at 11:13 am |
    • Science

      Hey chadie/Vickie too ............ urls are cool .................no horn-y beast NEEDED !

      Dear Mr. and Mrs. Troll...... .........chad/Rachel ....vickietoo...........trolling does not work in the sand............will not catch fish that way !http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/14/vatican-swaps-old-masters-for-modernity-with-venice-biennale-debut/?replytocom=2343268#respondHey ...........kiddies................stuff bellow is the truth ...........no dino in the what chadie ?Scientists Find Oldest Dinosaur – Or Closest Relative YetDec. 5, 2012 — Researchers have discovered what may be the earliest dinosaur, a creature the size of a Labrador retriever, but with a five foot-long tail, that walked the Earth about 10 million years before more familiar dinosaurs like the small, swift-footed Eoraptor and
      Herrerasaurus.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121205084421.htm

      Your request was successfully submitted.

      Bing will come and visit your site soon. To find out if your site is indexed and receiving traffic from Bing or to submit more URLs, sign up for a free account with

      Bing Webmaster Tools

      June 4, 2013 at 11:17 am |
    • Melissa

      "God so loved the world that He intervened with the Ultimate Measure & gave us the required holiness through Jesus Christ."

      Mithra is the true son of God and by only believing in him will you enter heaven!

      June 4, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • skytag

      They tell themselves it's a choice and that God didn't create them that way.

      June 4, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • skytag

      "Don't confuse people's interpretation/position on issues with the truth about Christianity! People get wrong a lot of the times!"

      I agree, Vic. Everyone who believes it's real is getting it wrong.

      June 4, 2013 at 2:52 pm |
    • skytag

      "When I look around (universe & life) I know (meaning believe) there is a God!"

      Vic, people exactly like you used to believe disease was caused by evil spirits and that the sun revolved around the Earth. Believing something has never been enough to make it true.

      June 4, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
  3. ME II

    I am a troll. I have nothing better to do than get on EVERY religion based Opinion board to be contrary and annoying.

    June 4, 2013 at 9:57 am |
    • LOL!

      The fact you had to steal their handle to post this lie means you've been loosing arguments and are the one that is annoyed.

      June 4, 2013 at 10:01 am |
    • ME II

      Wow, I've attracted the attention of the childish name-jacker.

      Should I feel honored?

      June 4, 2013 at 10:02 am |
    • Pete

      "Should I feel honored?"

      No, it means you've been proving this troll wrong. Poor Chad can't handle he's wrong.

      June 4, 2013 at 10:04 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      ME II I usually take it as a sign that I've made my point. Congratulations

      June 4, 2013 at 10:24 am |
  4. palintwit

    Female tea party patriots do*uche with Everclear instead of vinegar. It comes in mason jars and is readily available south of the Mason-Dixon line.

    June 4, 2013 at 9:50 am |
  5. lol??

    The problem is that social scientists think the world is their own giant test tube and people are their specimens.

    June 4, 2013 at 8:17 am |
    • Richard Cranium

      Why is that a problem? They study people, and social interaction. That is not a bad thing.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:19 am |
    • The real Tom

      What "social scientists" are making any decisions for people? Every time I think there can't be someone so stupid as you, lolly, you surpass yourself. You are a vast sea of stupidity.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:20 am |
    • midwest rail

      That's vewy intewesting.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:20 am |
    • Science

      Hey lol?? if that is what you think lol??...................you feed them well !

      June 4, 2013 at 8:25 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      I think you're confusing Sociologists with Social Engineers there, lolly.
      Eugenics is to sociology what phrenology is to neuroscience.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:26 am |
    • lol??

      Listen to the Pavlovian apologetic dogs bark.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:37 am |
    • Science

      Hey lol?? your problem IS you are still stuck in the sand box.

      Chad too.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:43 am |
    • Science

      By the way lol??................trolling in sand does not work .............will not catch any fish that way !!!

      June 4, 2013 at 9:06 am |
    • religion; a way to control the weak minded

      "Listen to the Pavlovian apologetic dogs bark."

      Religion = classic conditioning.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:34 am |
    • ME II

      @lol??,

      You're response has been noted and will be adjusted for in your next trial.

      Thank you for your participation.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:52 am |
  6. lol??

    German socialists need to be kept on a short leash.

    Project Paperclip: Dark side of the Moon

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4443934.stm

    June 4, 2013 at 8:08 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Gott ist mit dem deutschen Volk.
      So steht es auf ihren Gürtelschnallen.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:19 am |
  7. Bryan

    "The purpose of marriage is not to have pleasure and to be idle, but to procreate and bring up children, to support a household. This, of course, is a huge burden full of great cares and toils. But you have been created by God to be a husband or a wife that you may learn to bear these troubles. Those who have no love for children are... unworthy of being called men or women; for they despise the blessing of God, the creator and author of marriage.” Martin Luther

    June 4, 2013 at 8:01 am |
    • midwest rail

      so you oppose marriage for infertile couples as well ?

      June 4, 2013 at 8:03 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Same gender couple are perfectly capable of loving children.
      There are tens of thousands of unwanted children in need of adoptive parents. Is it not better for a child to be raised by two loving parents of the same s.ex as opposed to the orphanage/foster care system?

      June 4, 2013 at 8:05 am |
    • The real Tom

      Well, then, Bryan, you'd better hurry up and adopt all the unwanted kids in foster care before the GAYS beat you to it!

      Really, do you think Martin Luther is a good source of wisdom and guidance? Would you follow the directives of a physician of the same era? A cook?

      June 4, 2013 at 8:19 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Martin Luthor was full of tolerance and love, wasn't he?
      Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.

      -Martin Luther
      "Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."

      -Martin Luther

      June 4, 2013 at 8:22 am |
    • The Honest Reality

      Interesting, so if Martin Luther said one thing morally wrong (or even multiple things) we should not pay attention to ANYTHING the man had to say?
      So does that mean that you atheists on here are ready to disown Jefferson who owned people as slaves and ignore anything he had to say about religion or specifically Christianity?

      Just curious on this.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:27 am |
    • midwest rail

      No, it means that even the most brilliant among us is occasionally wrong. In addition, posting a quote w/o remaining to debate it's merits as related to the subject at hand is hit-and-run cowardice.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:31 am |
    • The real Tom

      Did Jefferson give advice on marriage? Considering his liaison with Sally Hemmings, no, I wouldn't follow his advice on marriage and its meaning. I wouldn't own slaves, either. I wouldn't follow Jefferson's advice on fashion or hairstyling as it wouldn't be pertinent to this century.

      Same goes for Martin Luther.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:31 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      I'm saying that one should be careful when choosing role models.
      There would have been no 3rd Reich if it weren't for Martin Luthor.
      There are enough hateful, bigoted and most especially anti-semitic writings from him that it makes one question the wisdom of the rest of his rhetoric.

      "Faith in your partner, your fellow men, your friends, is very important, because without it there's no mutual component to your relationship, and relationships are important. So faith plays an important role, but faith in people you don't know, faith in religious or political leaders or even people on stages, people who are popular in the public eye, you shouldn't have faith in those people. You should listen to what they have to say and use it. It might give you some ideas on how to view the world, but ultimately you have to base your views on evidence. Evidence comes from your own eyes and ears."
      – Dr. Greg Graffin

      June 4, 2013 at 8:32 am |
    • The Honest Reality

      @midwest rail- sadly it happens a lot on here. Certain people like Colin, Chad and Reailty have a bad habit of posting and running away without talking about their pov

      @The real Tom-But on topics of spirituality it would be ok to at least consider what Martin Luther and Jefferson has to say?

      June 4, 2013 at 8:35 am |
    • The Honest Reality

      "There would have been no 3rd Reich if it weren't for Martin Luthor."

      That's putting a lot of responsibility on the shoulders of a man that died in 1546.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:37 am |
    • The real Tom

      You can put stock in what Luther had to say about marriage if you so choose.

      The fact is that Luther's view of marriage's purpose is outdated. We don't need all marriages to produce lots of children because we now have the very low rates of infant mortality in developed countries. And Luther couldn't have foreseen the day when gays could hope to have children through medical intervention, nor could he have foreseen that research would show that two parents of the same gender can and do love children just as much as any other couple.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:45 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Anti-Semitism is a large component of his legacy in Germany.
      "Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance.... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp"
      -Bernhard Rust, Nazi Minister of Education, 25 Aug. 1933

      "Many people confess their amazement that Hitler preaches ideas which they have always held.... From the Middle Ages we can look to the same example in Martin Luther. What stirred in the soul and spirit of the German people of that time, finally found expression in his person, in his words and deeds."
      -"Geist und Kampf" (speech), Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf

      June 4, 2013 at 8:47 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      It is interesting, Doc, that the various synods of Lutherans didn't get around to formally rejecting the antisemitic writings of Martin Luther until the 1970s.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:59 am |
    • The Honest Reality

      I do not doubt in Luther's anti-semitism. I just don't think it's fair to say that the Nazi wouldn't have formed if he didn't exist.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:04 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Tom Tom
      They'd like to forget that right after finishing his translation of the Bible, Luther wrote "On the Jews and Their Lies".
      It's no different than the Mormons trying to forget the racsist doctrines spouted by every one of their "prophets" until Spencer Kimbal in the 1970's.
      Brigham Young wrote some truly abhorrent shlt in The Journal of Discourses.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:04 am |
    • Reality

      One examines the situation as thoroughly as possible and then make your conclusions.

      Some results of said examination:

      Only for the new members of this blog- to include Honest Reality or is he the long time member R..... the Lutheran from Germany?

      Only for the those interested in a religious update:
      1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

      “New Torah For Modern Minds

      Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

      Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.

      The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
      prob•a•bly
      Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.

      2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

      The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

      earlychristianwritings.com/

      For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

      Current RCC problems:

      Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

      2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

      Current problems:
      Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

      3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

      This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, the Filipino “koranics”and the Boston Marthon bombers.

      And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

      Current crises:

      The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

      4. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

      The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

      Current problems:

      The caste system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence.

      5. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

      "However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

      Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

      Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

      Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!

      June 4, 2013 at 9:20 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      @Honest Reality
      I dont' think you can underestimate Luther's impact on Germany's collective psyche.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:24 am |
    • Vic

      Just keep in mind that no human regardless of level of knowledge and/or wisdom knows/knew it all!

      Martin Luther was a great Reformer that discerned the truth about Christianity, hence the Reformation of the Christian Church! However, as a born again Christian Protestant, I don't agree with Martin Luther's view regarding the Jews and the peasants! He was caught up in an adverse situation at the time as a Reformer from all directions including the Jews, especially that his Reform involved that Salvation is by Grace through Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ as Lord and personal Savior AND APART from the Law! That put him in a direct collision course with the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Jews for they both incorporate the Mosaic Law!

      So, what do we do?! I elect adopting Martin Luther's Reformation of the Christian Church! and reject his views on the Jews! Simple as that!

      June 4, 2013 at 9:37 am |
    • tallulah13

      So Vic, you chose to cherry pick whatever part of Luther's doctrine pleases you, then ignore the rest. Sounds like christianity in a nutshell.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:49 am |
    • .

      "but to procreate and bring up children, to support a household. This, of course, is a huge burden full of great cares and toils."

      YeahRight

      The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      Like their heterosexual counterparts, many gay and lesbian people want to form stable, long-lasting, committed relationships. Indeed, many of them do and that large proportions are currently involved in such a relationship and that a substantial number of those couples have been together 10 or more years.

      Research demonstrates that the psychological and social aspects of committed relationships between same-sex partners closely resemble those of heterosexual partnerships. Like heterosexual couples, same-sex couples form deep emotional attachments and commitments. Heterosexual and same-sex couples alike face similar issues concerning intimacy, love, equity, loyalty, and stability, and they go through similar processes to address those issues. Research examining the quality of intimate relationships also shows that gay and lesbian couples have levels of relationship satisfaction similar to or higher than those of heterosexual couples.

      A large number of gay and lesbian couples raise children. Children and teenagers whose parents provide loving guidance in the context of secure home environments are more likely to flourish – and this is just as true for children of same-sex parents as it is for children of opposite-sex parents. Based on research findings, mental health professionals have also reached a consensus that the quality of relationships among significant adults in a child’s or adolescent’s life is associated with adjustment. When relationships between parents are characterized by love, warmth, cooperation, security, and mutual support, children and adolescents are more likely to show positive adjustment. In contrast, when relationships between parents are conflict-ridden and acrimonious, the adjustment of children and adolescents is likely to be less favorable. These correlations are just as true for children of same-sex parents as for children of opposite-sex parents.

      Assertions that heterosexual couples are inherently better parents than same sex couples, or that the children of lesbian or gay parents fare worse than children of heterosexual parents, have no support in the scientific research literature. On the contrary, the scientific research that has directly compared outcomes for children with gay and lesbian parents with outcomes for children with heterosexual parents has consistently shown that the former are as fit and capable as the latter and that their children are as psychologically healthy and well adjusted as children reared by heterosexual parents.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:56 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      Tallulah, Don't you accept the portions of philosophies you support and reject the segments that don't? Or are you completely jingoistic?

      June 4, 2013 at 10:27 am |
    • Alias

      Bill

      I dont think jingoistic means what you think it means.

      June 4, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      chauvinist? concrete? inflexible?

      June 4, 2013 at 11:05 am |
    • JamesK

      Vic
      "Just keep in mind that no human regardless of level of knowledge and/or wisdom knows/knew it all!"

      Since everything we know about God comes from human perceptions and thinking, and means that it's inherently unreliable, correct? Why should we trust anything anyone believes about God then?

      June 4, 2013 at 11:21 am |
    • Dodd

      That sums up the purpose of marriage very well!

      If only this purpose as ordained by God is upheld by every dad and mom, what a gift this would be to the future of humanity!

      "The purpose of marriage is not to have pleasure and to be idle, but to procreate and bring up children, to support a household. ✅

      This, of course, is a huge burden full of great cares and toils. ✅

      But you have been created by God to be a husband or a wife that you may learn to bear these troubles. ✅

      Those who have no love for children are... unworthy of being called men or women; for they despise the blessing of God, the creator and author of marriage.” ✅

      June 4, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
    • Reality

      Honest Reality = Rainer? Hmmm?

      June 4, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
  8. Reality

    Gay or not, he still follows a very flawed religion both historically and theologically as do all Abrahamics. See p. 1 of the comments for added details.

    June 4, 2013 at 7:21 am |
    • The Honest Reality

      Or save yourself some time and don't.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:13 am |
    • Reality

      Rainer has come back as "Honest Reality" ??

      June 4, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
  9. Turn of events

    Maybe they could take in the Boy Scouts the Baptists booted out.

    June 4, 2013 at 6:49 am |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Any time religious groups start to disappear from areas of society is a good time. If the Lutherans are not bigoted and hateful towards gays, this is a good thing...the SBC can go to the hell they believe in.

      June 4, 2013 at 6:54 am |
    • The Honest Reality

      Explain any time period where religion declining resulted to the increase of the people's well being.

      Pay attention...I said that declining religion RESULTED to the increase. Not that an increase just so happened at the same time.

      June 4, 2013 at 8:21 am |
  10. tre

    ........Lutherans apparently believe that their GOD.................................................is LOVE.......................

    June 4, 2013 at 6:22 am |
    • Turn of events

      Kindness, love and a humble heart . . . These are the things I remember as being the most important values. Good for the Lutherans. Show the rest how its done.

      June 4, 2013 at 6:53 am |
  11. Watching

    People, just doing what people do best.... Drifting.... away. Heb. 2:1

    June 4, 2013 at 5:56 am |
  12. skytag

    Yet another opportunity for Christians to make a lot of wholly unsupported claims and act superior to anyone who doesn't believe exactly what they believe despite the fact that they have no more proof of any of it than I have that Santa Claus is real.

    June 4, 2013 at 5:29 am |
    • faith

      no acting involved

      June 4, 2013 at 5:51 am |
    • skytag

      faith, are you suggesting Christians are better than everyone else? If so that sounds like pride, which is a sin, according to the Bible.

      June 4, 2013 at 6:18 am |
    • faith

      no. i am stating it as clearly as i no how.

      nazi god-hating fascist fools r humorless, dour, maudlin, depressed, miserable, mean-spirited, self-centered, self-absorbed, overly-sensitive, down in the dumps, self-pitying cry babies on ert

      and i sin, all the x

      June 4, 2013 at 6:38 am |
    • sam stone

      faith: you are a mouthy little troll cvnt.

      fvck off, punk

      June 4, 2013 at 7:06 am |
    • @faith

      You post day and night, faith, and seem to be very hateful towards most people on here...I get that some people are hateful to you, but posters who are not regular here seem to get your full measure of hate directed towards them as well...are you a Christian or merely a troll? I can't tell by your posts what your personality is.
      You seem very mean-spirited.

      June 4, 2013 at 10:28 am |
    • Pete

      "You seem very mean-spirited."

      No, they are just very insecure.

      June 4, 2013 at 10:29 am |
    • sam stone

      faith is a troll

      June 4, 2013 at 10:53 am |
  13. Socialimps

    There is a story in the Bible about a time when the most holy dinnerware and utensils were taken and abused by drunken inappropriate use.Genuine religion within the christian domain is not a pantomine excuse with shifting ground.The same night writing appeared at this dining occasion and in essense wrote mene..ok ,yknow yr time is up,this really is the absolute end of tolerating your abuse in understanding everything

    June 4, 2013 at 4:42 am |
  14. faith

    in the last day, that great day of the feast, jesus stood and cried saying, if anyone believes in me out of his inner most being shall flow rivers of living water

    June 4, 2013 at 4:24 am |
    • saggyroy

      What does that mean?

      June 4, 2013 at 6:30 am |
    • faith

      living water represents the holy spirit

      June 4, 2013 at 6:33 am |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      "living water represents the holy spirit"

      Oh dear, sounds like someone missed Science class again.

      June 4, 2013 at 6:56 am |
  15. Scott

    OMG

    You are one slippery eel. If anyone makes a point about anything in the bible you come up with a reason it's not valid. GET THE BEHIND ME OMG I mann SATAN

    June 4, 2013 at 4:15 am |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      Probably due to the fact that the only people the bible has any meaning to are those who follow it, for the rest of us who are capable of living without imaginary friends and guide books, it holds no meaning.

      June 4, 2013 at 5:46 am |
  16. DOES_TRUTH_MATTER_ANYMORE

    We are getting closer to the return of Jesus Christ. The acceptance of what GOD calls wrong is apart of the falling away. To fall way is to leave the rules of GOD. Without question it is unnatural for 2 men or 2 women to be together. We all have a sinful nature and this must be addressed in prayer. However to wave the white flag of surrender to sin is a death warrant.

    June 4, 2013 at 3:45 am |
    • Andrew

      People have been shouting that for 2000 years. The past century has been the most peaceful century in mankind's history. Yes, even including WWII, fewer people died in the 20th century as a percentage of the population than ever before.

      We have fewer deaths due to droughts, to famine, to poverty, than ever before. Yes, those things still exist, and are still abundant, but humans are improving by leaps and bounds.

      People coming together to work for our collective benefit seems to make the world better. And yet, here, selfish people like you talk about the end of days as though you're almost giddy. You're complaining about two men marrying, but Alan Turing is in many ways responsible for the computer you're using today (as well as helping save england during WWII), a gay man, and yet one of the most important men in history.

      You judge people based on who they are attracted to. I judge them based on what they do to make humanity better. You see equality and abandoning of bronze age values as signs of the end of days. I see them as humans finally realising their potential, and taking the first steps to potentially get off this tiny rock.

      Your religion teaches you to want humanity itself to fail. To be judged by your god. I want humanity to succeed, not bound by your vengeful and petty god.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:56 am |
    • Shane

      According to the Bible, Jesus should have returned a long time ago while his disciples (or some of them) were still alive.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:58 am |
    • Doug

      Spoken like a true bigot.. Quit standing behind your bible and come one and be a real person hater.. You disgust me !

      June 4, 2013 at 4:22 am |
    • worldcares

      How one disciplines and focuses their life determines their Spiritual Awareness or Christian Atonement.

      June 4, 2013 at 4:25 am |
    • skytag

      Feel free to present any evidence you have for anything you claim.

      June 4, 2013 at 5:10 am |
    • sam stone

      "Without question it is unnatural for 2 men or 2 women to be together"

      Yet it occurs in nature all the time

      How can you be so sure that god did not make it this way? Christians are often bloviating that god designs down to the most intricate detail, why not design having a percentage of the population gay?

      Luckily, no one has ever predicted the "last days" before

      June 4, 2013 at 5:26 am |
    • iski

      Um...it pretty much happens in nature all the time across many species so your statement is probably what's unnatural. So tired of literalist King James "Christians" suggesting that they somehow are the spokespeople for Christianity. These poorly nongoverned nonliturgical congregations filled with people that prioritize self entertainment over thoughtful theology have done way damage to the perception of Christianity. To religion is a little deeper than some charismatic nonscholar spitting out Bible verses between rockband hymns.

      June 4, 2013 at 5:45 am |
    • skytag

      In vitro fertilization and injecting insulin aren't natural either.

      June 4, 2013 at 6:24 am |
    • tallulah13

      There is more proof that homosexuality is natural and innate than there is proof of any god. Using the 2000-year-old words of people who had limited understanding of the natural world as means to discriminate is immoral and should be illegal.

      June 4, 2013 at 9:55 am |
    • .

      "Without question it is unnatural for 2 men or 2 women to be together."

      YeahRight

      Heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American School Counselor Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of SocialWorkers, together representing more than 480,000 mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus is not something that needs to or can be “cured."

      June 4, 2013 at 9:59 am |
  17. worldcares

    I fell inner peace and joy in my heart for Bishop Erwin.

    June 4, 2013 at 3:33 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      He does look kind of soft and cuddly.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:40 am |
  18. kenman

    Yes, more pseudo-Christian denominations undermining the Word and betraying Christ while professing to represent Him;

    they're Judases! And, hopefully, their congregations will evaporate so that more damage isn't done to the body of believers.

    June 4, 2013 at 3:14 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      That's a hope I hold out for religious congregations in general. As you do evaporate, I hope you won't leave a stain.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:22 am |
    • yalesouth

      what a nut. still stuck in the middle ages.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:26 am |
    • worldcares

      Don't worry about them. Life is so simple. The sunrise and sunset are religiously beautiful, not to mention the stars. Don't let fear or the ego deter the journey on your path.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:58 am |
    • Doug

      Doesn't that bible make you feel good about yourself, it even makes it so that you don't have to educate yourself about the real world... How nice that must be to live in such a small world..

      June 4, 2013 at 4:32 am |
    • skytag

      Feel free to present your evidence that your beliefs are more valid than those of any other Christian.

      June 4, 2013 at 5:14 am |
    • anthony

      ya how dare those fake christians go against the word of god and jesus and outlaw a mans god given right to own a black person.. giving slaves rights and not beating them to death goes against god!!!!!!!!! and now they are mixing the races?!?!?!?!?! these fake christians go against god and will feel his wrath!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      *sarcastically takes a bow*

      June 4, 2013 at 5:21 am |
    • Chris_Bryant

      Lutherans are "Pseudo-Christian"? Are you one of those people who think that Baptists existed starting in the First Century and that other Protestant denominations (Anglicans/Lutherans/Presbyterians) left your "true faith" later on? You do know that would necessitate ignoring the fact that the first historical mention of a "Baptist" church was in 1609 in Amsterdam, right? This is almost a Century after Luther and Calvin precipitated the movement.

      Historical ignorance aside, you should look at the practical aspects of your statements. Pragmatically, you should realize that spiteful statements like yours cause people to dislike Christians and to turn from faith. Fire and brimstone preaching may work for uneducated people, but if you rely on fear and ignorance, your church will atrophy until only the fearful and ignorant remain.

      God is forgiving in ways that exceed our understanding. If you want to be like Him, you should start by showing kindness and forgiveness above all else. If you can't do that, please don't hold yourself up as an example to the outside world.

      June 4, 2013 at 5:52 am |
  19. Robert

    So, the Lutheran denomination has chosen a gay guy over Christ, eh? They can pretend gay se_x is not sin but the New Covenant scriptures say it is.

    June 4, 2013 at 3:05 am |
    • clearsight

      Okay, I'll play along and pretend that the book of Jewish/Judeo-Christian fairy tales is real.

      Jesus said to let he who is without sin be the one to cast the first stone. Are you without sin? If Jesus were around to hear you spitefully condemn this man's 'sin,' he would rebuke you as a "hypocrite" who should remove the wooden beam from his own eye before plucking the splinter from his brother's.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:21 am |
    • Karolina

      To clearsight: You reference where Jesus said, " let he who is without sin be the one to cast the first stone.' Keep reading a few more verses and you'll see where he tells the woman to "go and sin no more." The fact that we aren't supposed to hypocritically judge doesn't mean that it's OK for someone in sin to keep on in that lifestyle. Context is helpful in getting a clearer picture....have a nice day.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:59 am |
    • skytag

      Karolina: "The fact that we aren't supposed to hypocritically judge doesn't mean that it's OK for someone in sin to keep on in that lifestyle"

      Judging people doesn't stop them from doing anything, it's just judging, so what's your point?

      June 4, 2013 at 5:19 am |
    • anthony

      OH SNAP HE TOLD YO JUDGMENTAL A$$

      June 4, 2013 at 5:26 am |
    • sam stone

      sin is a man made concept, robert.

      June 4, 2013 at 5:29 am |
    • The real Tom

      Karolina et al: If homosexuality is such a sin, why don't the Ten Commandments address it specifically?

      June 4, 2013 at 8:27 am |
    • In Answer

      First of all, Robert, there is a precedent for gay bishops. It is not new. Have you ever heard of the Right Reverend Gene Robinson? And you must remember that if God calls you to such service, He has already ordained you as per the Holy Bible.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
    • One Does Not Equal the Other

      You have to know and realize, Karolina, that Jesus was talking to a woman who was a known pro.st i tute. That is something that one is not born with or as, and that one can certainly change behavior-wise such as to go and sin no more. But had the person been Gay or Lesbian He, being omniscient, would have known they were Born that way and that is why He did not say anything about them during His ministry and neither does the Ten Commandments. That's the difference here that one needs to know and understand to avoid sounding prejudicial.

      June 4, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
  20. Paul Starks

    The Lutheran church is losing members by the truckload and they will be a empty force in 10 years. They are a dying church denomination in America. The more conservative churches in Asia, South America, and Africa are growing, The liberal, relevant and "tolerant" churches in the west are dinosaurs and soon will be extinct.

    June 4, 2013 at 2:42 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      As long as there are frightened, impoverished, poorly educated people in America there will be a place for religion.

      June 4, 2013 at 3:27 am |
    • sam stone

      Yep, paulie, desperation sure does bring people to jeebus

      June 4, 2013 at 5:31 am |
    • Truth Prevails :-)

      66 million Lutherans world wide with 8.4 million alone in North America-doesn't look like it is dying off. (sourced from: http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/lutheranism.htm)

      June 4, 2013 at 6:00 am |
    • iski

      The members they are losing are those in more rural, older generation denominations, catering to those who don't want to relinquish their own prejudices. The global growth areas you mention simply extend the somewhat illiterate base where these churches are founded. If anything suggests the next coming, it's the absence of deep religious theology being replaced by the "social club" nature of the megachurches and "Community" churches.

      June 4, 2013 at 6:01 am |
    • Zadok

      the Lutheran Church is in decline God wants no part of a church that turns they're back on God the Lutheran magazine tells you they are in decline.http://www.thelutheran.org/article/article.cfm?article_id=11186

      June 4, 2013 at 9:01 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.