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June 11th, 2013
01:35 PM ET

Pope Francis: `Gay lobby' exists inside Vatican

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

(CNN) - Pope Francis said a “gay lobby” exists inside the Vatican, a surprising disclosure from a pope who has already delivered his share of stunners, and a resurrection of church conflicts that had bedeviled his predecessor's papacy.

“In the Curia,” Francis said, referring to Catholicism’s central bureaucracy, “there are holy people. But there is also a stream of corruption.”

“The 'gay lobby' is mentioned, and it is true, it is there,” Francis continued. “We need to see what we can do.”

READ MORE: The pope said what? Six stunners from Francis

Hints that the Holy See contained a network of gay clergy surfaced last year in reports about a series of embarrassing leaks to Italian journalists.

The "Vatileaks" scandal factored in Pope Emeritus Benedict XIV's shocking decision to resign earlier this year, according to some church experts, as it impressed upon the 86-year-old pontiff that the modern papacy requires a vigorous and watchful presence.

Francis' enigmatic comments came during a meeting Sunday with CLAR, the Latin American and Caribbean Confederation of Religious Men and Women, who head Catholic communities of priests, sisters and monks.

The Chilean website Reflection and Liberation, which focuses on Catholic theology, first reported Francis’ remarks. The Catholic blog Rorate Caeli translated the report into English.

A Vatican spokesman told CNN, "The Holy See Press Office has no official comment on the private meeting."

Gay and lesbian Catholic groups did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

The Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests said, "structure, not sexuality, is the real issue."

"The church is a monarchy. Monarchs are unaccountable. So many monarchs are corrupt. This is true in both secular and religious institutions," SNAP said in a statement.

Other Catholics counseled caution about reading too much into the pope's remarks.

"We don't have any explanation of what 'gay lobby' means," said Rocco Palmo, a Vatican watcher who runs Whispers in the Loggia, a website on Catholic news and church politics.

"Naturally, some in the church will try to polarize or interpret this, but as the rest of us aren't pope, we still have to get further explanation," Palmo added.

Church experts say the Chilean report rings true since the wide-ranging conversation centers on concerns that Francis has made touchstones of his nascent papacy.

In contrast to the buttoned-up Benedict, Francis has earned an early reputation for speaking off the cuff, often ditching prepared remarks in favor of more informal conversations.

On Friday, Francis nixed his “boring” speech and instead took questions from young Catholic students. Asked by a little girl if he wanted to be pope, Francis laughed and said that only someone who “doesn’t love himself” would want the position.

Last month, the pope sparked a worldwide debate by suggesting that atheists might be able to earn a spot in heaven.

"He has said some things that would turn Benedict whiter than the papal vestments," Palmo joked.

Francis told the Catholic leaders on Sunday to focus on the poor, that the Vatican must be reformed, and joked that whoever wagered on his long-shot election as pope “won a lot, of course.”

But his comments on the "gay lobby" are likely to gain the most attention, especially in the West, where Catholic leaders have been mounting a fierce fight against same-sex marriage.

After Benedict announced his resignation in February, reports circulated that a “gay lobby” had forced his hand.

Cardinals appointed by the former pope to find the source of the leaks investigated high-level Vatican clergy involved in homosexual affairs who might have been vulnerable to blackmail, according to La Repubblica, a leading Italian newspaper.

La Repubblica reported that the cardinals found evidence of a “gay lobby” within the Vatican but gave few details about it.

"Some high level clergy are exposed to the `external influence' – what we would call blackmail – of lay people to whom they are connected through ties of a `worldly nature,'" La Repubblica wrote.

The Vatican blasted the newspaper reports as “unverified, unverifiable and completely false.”

Francis is one of the few Catholic leaders to have seen the Vatican report.

The so-called Vatileaks scandal led to Benedict's butler, Paolo Gabriele, being convicted on charges last year of leaking private papers from the the pope's private office. He was sentenced to 18 months in prison.

'Gay lobby' behind pope's resignation? Not likely

John Allen, CNN’s senior Vatican analyst, has said it would have been odd if the Vatican report had not considered the possibility that "insiders leading a double life," including sexually active clergy, might be vulnerable to pressure to betray the pope.

“It seems a stretch, however, to suggest this is the real reason," behind Benedict's resignation, Allen said.

In one of his first actions as pope, Francis created a council of eight cardinals, including Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston,  to offer suggestions on reforming the Vatican.

“The reform of the Roman Curia is something that almost all Cardinals asked for in the congregations preceding the Conclave,” Francis said, referring to the meetings that led up to his election in March. “I also asked for it.”

But Francis said that he cannot promote the reform himself. “I am very disorganized,” he said, adding, “I have never been good at this.”

Instead, the pope said, he is relying on his eight appointed cardinals to move the reforms forward.

CNN's Richard Greene contributed to this report. 

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Belief • Catholic Church • Christianity • Church • Gay rights • gender issues • Homosexuality

soundoff (1,872 Responses)
  1. Evelyn

    Satana is doing his job so well. He even infiltrated the Vatican walls.

    June 12, 2013 at 8:02 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      Is that Satan's sister? I bet she's a demon in the sack.

      Or perhaps you mean Santana? Hey, even Catholics have to groove.

      June 12, 2013 at 8:05 am |
  2. Glenn

    For those who want to know the truth, go to bibleuniverse.com or amazing facts.org

    June 12, 2013 at 7:59 am |
    • WASP

      @glenn: TRUTH: 1.The quality or state of being true
      2.That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

      see that's the problem, your "version of truth" doesn't match up to what we know as truth.

      June 12, 2013 at 8:01 am |
    • sam stone

      glenn: you believe they have "the truth"?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:25 am |
  3. Glenn

    Your are very intelligent Colin,but I challenge you to YouTube incredible creatures the defy evolution , the scientist who put this together was an atheist an evolutionist science teacher at university in USA , check it out. All of you please

    June 12, 2013 at 7:56 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      All those videos are ridiculous and counter-productive to the creationist movement. All they do is prove how animals evolve to adapt to their environment.

      June 12, 2013 at 8:01 am |
  4. Bible

    Have you ever taught your children a lesson by cooking their food using their own feces? Yep, we have a verse for that.

    June 12, 2013 at 7:53 am |
  5. Brian

    For those of you who do not ‘believe,’ no one is trying to force you to believe. The choice is simple. You are free to choose to believe, or not. No one is facing torture, imprisonment or punishment if you choose not to believe.

    Therefore, why do you all feel compelled to try to force us believers to accept something that we feel is a sin? You go your way, and we will go ours. But, do not expect us to change the Word of God, just to suit your desires.

    However, we will pray that someday you will reconsider.

    June 12, 2013 at 7:49 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      Lots of people worldwide face torture or imprisonment for not believing in a certain creed. Also, numerous holy books tell me I face eternal punishment for not believing. Therefore, by your standards, everybody on the planet faces punishment for not believing.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:53 am |
    • WASP

      @brian: i will accept that deal once you can get the lobbyists and the religious extremeists to stop trying to block equal rights for ALL AMERICANS, not just their "buddies".

      that is all we request; to paraphrase a movie " give me what i want and i'll go away." 🙂
      "storm of the century" great movie, one of my favorites.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:56 am |
    • James PDX

      Actually, your dogma specifically states that we will be sent to hell and tortured eternally for not believing. So you just lied.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:59 am |
    • sam stone

      brian: how can free will exist with an omniscient god?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:04 am |
    • sam stone

      while we are at it, brian, if god had a plan, is prayer not blasphemy? does the person praying not purport to have a better plan?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:06 am |
    • Brian

      “Lots of people worldwide face torture or imprisonment for not believing in a certain creed. Also, numerous holy books tell me I face eternal punishment for not believing…” Well let me respond below

      Many of you seem a little conflicted. Again, if you do not ‘believe’, why would you be remotely concerned about eternity?

      Nice opening line about ‘worldwide’ but please tell me where on earth this is applied to Christianity?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:37 am |
    • sam stone

      brian: please answer my question

      June 12, 2013 at 9:31 am |
  6. JMEF

    For Glenn, Topher, Chad and their ilk. Off topic but that is where the discussion has gone.
    Just to keep your lot up to date, I know you do not follow recent discoveries. The journal Nature published on June 5, 2013 has an article on a fossil found in China that indicates the possible split of tarisforme (monkey, ape, DNA line) and anthropoids (neanderthal, humanoid, DNA line) leading to the life forms we see and are today. This split appears to have occurred 55 million years ago sometime after the extinction of the dinosaurs. I know you will be happy to deny this knowledge as the Christians have had to do for 2000 years, willfully and blissfully ignorant as usual.

    June 12, 2013 at 7:41 am |
    • Science

      JMEF..............They hate facts.....................the ICR............Discovery Insti-tute...........and the RCC.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:48 am |
    • carlos

      Yes, was this the unicornasauras you are refering to oh holder of all knowledge ?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:51 am |
    • Austin

      let the flowers sing.

      June 12, 2013 at 8:01 am |
    • Science

      And the wasps (facts) sting aye Austin or the truth is best is it not Austin ?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:05 am |
    • sam stone

      still whacking cats in your dreams, austin? the DTs are rough, no?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:08 am |
    • JMEF

      Poor Carlos
      I am not the holder of all knowledge but neither am I a denier of modern knowledge in favor of a 2000 year old book of collected myths. Modern religious cults have slowly come around to believe what science is now proving, even the RCC has accepted evolution as the most plausible theory. On the lighter side...
      The Higgs boson goes into a catholic church and hovers in a pew. The congregation notices it and begins chatting about its presence. The priest seeing the disturbance asks the boson to leave the church. Higgs responds "Are you sure you cannot have mass without me."

      June 12, 2013 at 8:19 am |
  7. Pauline

    The church has been around for 2000 years and has had its good and bad moments. Even the Bible mentions mankinds
    weakness even people at the top. The object is to aim for perfection and goodness.
    Also it was a catholic priest who came up with the Big Bang equation regarding the cosmic universe.
    Pope Benedict xvi enacted new and updated church law which Pope Francis will carry forward.

    June 12, 2013 at 7:38 am |
    • GSK22

      "The object is to aim for perfection and goodness." – what goodness? God of the Bible is the most evil being ever created, thankfully it's only a fairy tale.

      June 12, 2013 at 8:01 am |
  8. Colin

    Glenn – The Big Bang theory DOES NOT mean the Universe “began” in the Big Bang; that it just “popped out of nothing.” Let me repeat this, because I would love a dollar for every religious person who thinks astronomers believes this. The big bang theory DOES NOT suggest that the Universe “began” in the Big Bang; that it just “popped out of nothing.” It is just as far back in time as we can currently take things, given our level of knowledge. The universe may well have always existed, expanding and contracting in an endless series of cycles (“big bangs” and so called “big crunches” wherein the galaxies all eventually slow down and start to head back toward one another under their mutual gravitational attraction); it may even be one of an infinite number of universes in a so called “multiverse,”; or time itself may have been created in the Big Bang. Quantum theory holds that a Universe can spontaneously spring into existence, provided the overall energy of the system is zero. At this point, we simply don’t know for sure.

    Many is the believer who reaches the “we don’t know” point and then leapt straight to the Judeo-Christian God as the “answer.” The irony is a little rich. The only possible explanation for something they don't understand is an even more fantastic explanation (God) that has even less proof to back it. They throw up at the idea of “something coming from nothing” – which no cosmologist thinks – and then plug this perceived hole with a God who came from nothing. That line of thinking never fails to amuse me. I guess they would have a little credibility if they could point to one scientific theory or law that was later found to have a better explanation rooted in religion and not science. However, every small step we have made as a species, that have collectively taken us from rubbing two sticks together to make fire to the internet and man on the moon has been achieved by greater scientific understanding, and not some sudden revelation that religion had the best answer in the first place.

    June 12, 2013 at 7:18 am |
    • Science

      Colin is glen smarter than a 5th grader ?

      Listening to the Big Bang - In High Fidelity

      Apr. 4, 2013 — A decade ago, spurred by a question for a fifth-grade science project, University of Washington physicist John Cramer devised an audio recreation of the Big Bang that started our universe nearly 14 billion years ago.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130404170154.htm

      June 12, 2013 at 7:30 am |
  9. Reality

    Another nail in the lid of the coffin of the RCC !!! Once again, run Catholics before you are buried in the crumbling churches of "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) the eats away at the foundations of all religions.

    And then there is this:

    Why would your god allow the following:

    Number of god's creations who died horrible deaths from the following diseases:

    1. 300,000,000 approx.
    Smallpox

    2. 200,000,000 ?
    Measles

    3. 100,000,000 approx.
    Black Death

    4. 80,000,000–250,000,000
    Malaria

    5. 50,000,000–100,000,000
    Spanish Flu

    6. 40,000,000–100,000,000
    Plague of Justinian

    7. 40,000,000–100,000,000
    Tuberculosis

    8. 30,000,000[13]
    AIDS pandemic

    9. 12,000,000 ?
    Third Pandemic of Bubonic Plague

    10. 5,000,000
    Antonine Plague

    11. 4,000,000
    Asian Flu

    12. 250,000 or more annually Seasonal influenza

    June 12, 2013 at 7:12 am |
    • Athiest Hunter

      Number of man who died at the hands of other men.....innumerable.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:23 am |
    • Rundvelt

      But man is not God, and therefore not comparable. Try again.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:52 am |
    • carlos

      Free Will

      June 12, 2013 at 7:54 am |
    • GSK22

      Free will? Is that so? So every child or adult who is diagnosed with terminal cancer has free choice to die from it or not? This isn't free will. There is no free will.

      June 12, 2013 at 8:04 am |
    • sam stone

      carlos: how can free will exist when god is supposedly omniscient?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:10 am |
    • sam stone

      rundvelt: man is not god. man is real, god is not

      June 12, 2013 at 8:19 am |
    • Reality

      o WHERE WAS YOUR GOD(S) WHEN THE FOLLOWING TOOK PLACE:
      The Twenty (or so) Worst Things GOD'S CREATURES Have Done to Each Other:

      M. White, http://necrometrics.com/warstatz.htm#u (required reading)

      The Muslim Conquest of India

      "The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

      Rank …..Death Toll ..Cause …..Centuries……..(Religions/Groups involved)*

      1. 63 million Second World War 20C (Christians et al and Communists/atheists vs. Christians et al, Nazi-Pagan and "Shintoists")

      2. 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C (Communism)

      3. 40 million Genghis Khan 13C (Shamanism or Tengriism)

      4. 27 million British India (mostly famine) 19C (Anglican)

      5. 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Chinese folk religion)

      6. 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C ( Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion vs. a form of Christianity)

      7. 20 million Joseph Stalin 20C (Communism)

      8. 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C (Islam)

      9. 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C

      10. 16 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C (Christianity)

      11. 15 million First World War 20C (Christians vs. Christians)

      12. 15 million Conquest of the Americas 15C-19C (Christians vs. Pagans)

      13. 13 million Muslim Conquest of India 11C-18C

      14. 10 million An Lushan Revolt 8C

      15. 10 million Xin Dynasty 1C

      16. 9 million Russian Civil War 20C (Christians vs Communists)

      17. 8 million Fall of Rome 5C (Pagans vs. Christians)

      18. 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C (Christians)

      19. 7½ million Thirty Years War 17C (Christians vs Christians)

      20. 7½ million Fall of the Yuan Dynasty 14C

      June 12, 2013 at 10:31 am |
    • Reality

      Only for the god-types:

      As per the famous contemporary, Catholic theologian, Edward Schillebeeckx, God is not omniscient. Please read, pause and contemplate the following by Schillebeeckx:

      Church: The Human Story of God,
      Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

      "Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

      "Nothing is determined in advance: in nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

      Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings.

      For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

      i.e. No one, not even God can prophesy since that would violate the human conditions of Free Will and Future.

      June 12, 2013 at 10:35 am |
  10. ollieperks

    If it's now good enough for the Westboro baptist church then the Catholics should just give it a go.
    http://eveningharold.com/2013/05/29/westboro-baptist-church-modernise-by-allowing-gay-clergy/

    June 12, 2013 at 7:10 am |
  11. Glenn

    So Colin you believe you evolved from a rock? Billion of yrs ago? Was anyone there to witness that event?The word science means to see test and demonstrate. Did anyone see the so called Big Bang ? Something that appeared out of nowhere and exploded and here we are, sounds like a magic trick, how do you get order out of kaos anyway, if I was to throw grenades at a pile of logs would I get a log cabin? Or if I were to place TNT around a crap metal yard would I get a jumbo jet? Do you know what the word universe means in Latin? Uni means single & verse means spoken sentence, And God said let there're be light and there was light, but man like darkness rather than light because there works were evil

    June 12, 2013 at 7:10 am |
    • MM

      "So Colin you believe you evolved from a rock? Billion of yrs ago?"

      Do you even understand what evolution is? If not, please step away from the keyboard, pick up a book on the topic, read it, learn it, then come back and see just how absolutely moronic your statement is.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:13 am |
    • Colin

      Glenn. But man arising from a rock (or dirt) is exactly what the bible says, no?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:15 am |
    • Reality

      o Think infinity and recycling with the Big Bang expansion followed by the shrinking reversal called the Gib Gnab and recycling back to the Big Bang repeating the process on and on forever. Human life and Earth are simply a minute part of this cha-otic, sto-cha-stic, expanding, shrinking process disappearing in five billion years with the burn out of the Sun and maybe returning in another five billion years with different life forms but still subject to the va-ga-ries of its local star.

      What we do know: (from the fields of astrophysics, biology, biochemistry, archeology, nuclear physics, geology and the history of religion)

      1. The Sun will burn out in 3-5 billion years so we have a time frame.

      2. Asteroids continue to circle us in the nearby asteroid belt.

      3. One wayward rock and it is all over in a blast of permanent winter.

      4. There are enough nuclear weapons to do the same job.

      5. Most contemporary NT exegetes do not believe in the Second Coming so apparently there is no concern about JC coming back on an asteroid or cloud of raptors/rapture.

      6. All stars will eventually extinguish as there is a limit to the amount of hydrogen in the universe. When this happens (100 trillion years?), the universe will go dark. If it does not collapse and recycle, the universe will end.

      7. Super, dormant volcanoes off the coast of Africa and under Yellowstone Park could explode cataclysmically at any time ending life on Earth.
      8. Many of us are part Neanderthal and/or Denisovan.

      Bottom line: our apocalypse will start between now and 3-5 billion CE. The universe apocalypse, 100 trillion years?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:16 am |
    • WASP

      @glenn: no if you set off dynamite in a scrap yard you will.............probably be arrested and placed in the nuthouse.
      did you see your god create anything?
      was anyone there to witness him creating creation?
      let's try an experiment,shall we? you will be god and clap your hands together to "create" something with magic
      i will use energy recombinated to create a cheese sandwich
      at the end of the experiment we will see who has a sandwich to eat, deal?

      given you do like elijah from 1 KINGS 18:36 and simply ask your god to prove himself. you are seen as equal to elijah in god's eyes so this should be a simple request from such a devout follower, correct?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:24 am |
  12. Glenn

    YouTube open space in Orion by Louie Torrez, Colin, how many sides to a coin? Always look on the flip side you never know what you will find

    June 12, 2013 at 6:44 am |
    • Colin

      i will Glenn. i would be interested to hear your response to my post below

      June 12, 2013 at 6:52 am |
  13. CygnusX1

    What I don't understand is why, if your not Catholic, and you dislike the Church, why did you read this article and feel compelled to comment.
    Don't like gay marriages don't have one right? Well, don't like the Catholic church, don't join it.

    Or did you honestly think Catholics would read your 50 word post and think, wow, what a good point, how wrong I have been all these years.

    June 12, 2013 at 6:42 am |
  14. Glenn

    YouTube ,Loren space in Orion Colin
    You will be amazed

    June 12, 2013 at 6:40 am |
  15. GI Joe

    I wasn't trying to be disrespectful of anyone's religion - that is personal - as is mine. I just don't believe in how some of them act and the things they do.

    If they do charity and offer help to the poor and elderly and sick, then I'm ok with that. But in so many cases, that just doesn't happen. I do love the Nuns on the Bus. Folks in red states can't stand them because they speak from and for Jesus.

    June 12, 2013 at 6:38 am |
    • Colin

      GI Joe You sHOULD be disrespectful of stupid beliefs. They should be ridiculed or they will never go away.

      Charity is not religion. Charity exists independently of belief in sky gods. Do not confuse the two.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:41 am |
  16. GI Joe

    All churches are frauds. If God needs money, he can use my credit card (as long as he doesn't spend too much). It's the priests, pastors, ministers, whatever, that need the money live in houses the parishioners could never dream of. They want 10% of everything from everyone and they pay no taxes on it. I say they should be taxed, after all - the are a corporation and corporations are people and people pay taxes. ha ha ha ha

    June 12, 2013 at 6:35 am |
  17. Glenn

    Mr atheist, what do they call it when a frog turns into a prince? Answer; a fairy tail, but if it happen over millions of yrs it's called science, evolution is an adult version of a fairy tail

    June 12, 2013 at 6:31 am |
    • Colin

      Glenn, exactly. Believe it or not you are exactly right. Over hundreds of millions of years that did happn. Makes a lot more sense that it all magically appearing because a god said "shazam" and created man from dirt doesn't iit?

      June 12, 2013 at 6:35 am |
    • Colin

      Glenn, let me explain a fact of life to you. Learning science from your Bible is not a good idea. It makes you really, really stupid. Here's why.

      First and most obviously is the fossil record. The fossil record is much, much more than just dinosaurs. Indeed, dinosaurs only get the press because of their size, but they make up less than 1% of the entire fossil record. Life had been evolving on Earth for over 3 thousand million years before dinosaurs evolved and has gone on evolving for 65 million years after the Chicxulub meteor likely wiped them out.

      The fossil record includes the Stromatolites, colonies of prokaryotic bacteria, that range in age going back to about 3 billion years, the Ediacara fossils from South Australia, widely regarded as among the earliest multi-celled organisms, the Cambrian species of the Burgess shale in Canada (circa – 450 million years ago) the giant scorpions of the Silurian Period, the giant, wingless insects of the Devonian period, the insects, amphibians, reptiles, fishes, clams, crustaceans of the Carboniferous Period, the many precursors to the dinosaurs, the 700 odd known species of dinosaurs themselves, the subsequent dominant mammals, including the saber tooth tiger, the mammoths and hairy rhinoceros of North America and Asia, the fossils of early man in Africa and the Neanderthals of Europe.

      The fossil record shows a consistent and worldwide evolution of life on Earth dating back to about 3,500,000,000 years ago. There are literally millions of fossils that have been recovered, of thousands of different species and they are all located where they would be in the geological record if life evolved slowly over billions of years. None of them can be explained by a 6,000 year old Earth and Noah’s flood. Were they all on the ark? What happened to them when it docked?

      A Tyrannosaurus Rex ate a lot of food – meat- which means its food would itself have to have been fed, like the food of every other carnivore on the ark for the entire 360 odd days Noah supposedly spent on the ark. T-Rex was not even the largest carnivorous dinosaur we know of. Spinosaurus, Argentinosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus were all larger and ate more even meat. Even they were not large enough to bring down the largest sauropods we know of, many species of which weighed in at close to 100 tons and were about 100 feet long. A bit of “back of the envelope” math quickly shows that “Noah’s Ark” would actually have to have been an armada of ships larger than the D-Day invasion force, manned by thousands and thousands of people – and this is without including the World’s 300,000 current species of plants, none of which could walk merrily in twos onto the ark.

      Then, of course, there are the various races of human beings. There were no Sub-Saharan Africans, Chinese, Australian Aboriginals, blonde haired Scandinavians, Pygmies or Eskimos on the Ark. Where did they come from?

      Second, there are those little things we call oil, natural gas and other fossil fuels. Their mere existence is another independent and fatal blow to the creationists. Speak to any geologist who works for Exxon Mobil, Shell or any of the thousands of mining, oil or natural gas related companies that make a living finding fossil fuels. They will tell you these fossil fuels take millions of years to develop from the remains of large, often Carboniferous Period forests, in the case of coal, or tiny marine creatures in the case of oil. For the fossils to develop into oil or coal takes tens or hundreds of millions of years of “slow baking” under optimum geological conditions. That’s why they are called “fossil fuels.” Have a close look at coal, you can often see the fossilized leaves in it. The geologists know exactly what rocks to look for fossil fuels in, because they know how to date the rocks to tens or hundreds of millions of years ago. Creationists have no credible explanation for this.

      Third, most of astronomy and cosmology would be wrong if the creationists were right. In short, as Einstein showed, light travels at a set speed. Space is so large that light from distant stars takes many years to reach the Earth. In some cases, this is millions or billions of years. The fact that we can see light from such far away stars means it began its journey billions of years ago. The Universe must be billions of years old. We can currently see galaxies whose light left home 13, 700,000,000 years ago. Indeed, on a clear night, one can see the collective, misty light of many stars more than 6,000 light years away with the naked eye, shining down like tiny accusatorial witnesses against the nonsense of creationism.

      Fourth, we have not just carbon dating, but also all other methods used by scientists to date wood, rocks, fossils, and other artifacts. These comprehensively disprove the Bible’s claims. They include uranium-lead dating, potassium-argon dating as well as other non-radioactive methods such as pollen dating, dendrochronology and ice core dating. In order for any particular rock, fossil or other artifact to be aged, generally two or more samples are dated independently by two or more laboratories in order to ensure an accurate result. If results were random, as creationists claim, the two independent results would rarely agree. They generally do. They regularly reveal ages much older than Genesis. Indeed, the Earth is about 750,000 times older than the Bible claims, the Universe about three times the age of the Earth.

      Fifth, the relatively new field of DNA mapping not only convicts criminals, it shows in undeniable, full detail how we differ from other life forms on the planet. For example, about 98.4% of human DNA is identical to that of chimpanzees, about 97% of human DNA is identical to that of gorillas, and slightly less again of human DNA is identical to the DNA of monkeys. This gradual divergence in DNA can only be rationally explained by the two species diverging from a common ancestor, and coincides perfectly with the fossil record. Indeed, scientists can use the percentage of DNA that two animal share (such as humans and bears, or domestic dogs and wolves) to get an idea of how long ago the last common ancestor of both species lived. It perfectly corroborates the fossil record and is completely independently developed.

      Sixth, the entire field of historical linguistics would have to be rewritten to accommodate the Bible. This discipline studies how languages develop and diverge over time. For example, Spanish and Italian are very similar and have a recent common “ancestor” language, Latin, as most people know. However, Russian is quite different and therefore either did not share a common root, or branched off much earlier in time. No respected linguist anywhere in the World traces languages back to the Tower of Babel, the creationists’ simplistic and patently absurd explanation for different languages. Indeed, American Indians, Australian Aboriginals, “true” Indians, Chinese, Mongols, Ja.panese, Sub-Saharan Africans and the Celts and other tribes of ancient Europe were speaking thousands of different languages thousands of years before the date creationist say the Tower of Babel occurred – and even well before the date they claim for the Garden of Eden.

      Seventh, lactose intolerance is also a clear vestige of human evolution. Most mammals only consume milk as infants. After infancy, they no longer produce the enzyme “lactase” that digests the lactose in milk and so become lactose intolerant. Humans are an exception and can drink milk as adults – but not all humans – some humans remain lactose intolerant. So which humans are no longer lactose intolerant? The answer is those who evolved over the past few thousand years raising cows. They evolved slightly to keep producing lactase as adults so as to allow the consumption of milk as adults. This includes most Europeans and some Africans, notably the Tutsi of Rwanda. On the other hand, most Chinese, native Americans and Aboriginal Australians, whose ancestors did not raise cattle, remain lactose intolerant.

      I could go on and elaborate on a number of other disciplines or facts that creationists have to pretend into oblivion to retain their faith, including the Ice Ages, cavemen and early hominids, much of microbiology, paleontology and archeology, continental drift and plate tectonics. Even large parts of medical research would be rendered unusable but for the fact that monkeys and mice share a common ancestor with us and therefore our fundamental cell biology and basic body architecture is identical to theirs.

      In short, and not surprisingly, the World’s most gifted evolutionary biologists, astronomers, cosmologists, geologists, archeologists, paleontologists, historians, modern medical researchers and linguists (and about 2,000 years of accu.mulated knowledge) are right and a handful of Iron Age Middle Eastern goat herders copying then extant mythology were wrong. Creationists aren’t just trying to swim upstream against the weight of scientific evidence; they are trying to ascend a waterfall.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:39 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      Creationism in a nutshell

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVmdCAT7Rc8&w=640&h=360]

      June 12, 2013 at 6:41 am |
    • CygnusX1

      Wow Colin. What good points. After your great post I'm surprised there are any Catholics left. I don't think you truly understand science. The more I studied science and physics, ASTEE, BSEE, BSME, and a couple others, the more the reality of God makes sense.

      But, a last, I cast pearls before swine.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:53 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      The Catholic Church accepts evolution.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:59 am |
    • sam stone

      glenn: why do you have a tailbone?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:07 am |
    • WASP

      @cyg: "But, a last, I cast pearls before swine."

      how very christian of you;however not very christ like. in that one simple statement you proved a few things about yourself.
      1) you're close minded
      2) you're condesending
      3) you're appearantly not very logical by nature otherwise seeing you claim to be well educated you still believe in magic over science.
      4) you place all human accomplishments at a lower disrespected level by giving credit for what we have done to a "god"

      June 12, 2013 at 7:09 am |
    • Colin

      CYGNUSX1 – ok, what did I get wrong?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:12 am |
    • CygnusX1

      BTW, if your trying to say God does not exist because the timeline you assumed the Bible gives does not fit into the timeline determined by physics, which were not created by man, you are making an incorrect assumption. The reality of dinosaurs does not disprove the existence of God. What, the bible didn't say dinosaurs roamed the earth therefore its wrong. The Bible didn't say energy comes from the product of area, heat transfer coefficient, and a difference of temperature so I guess that must be wrong too.

      We simply use the physics. We didn't create them. Did the reality that electrons flow and create a current or that heat always flows from hot to cold, entropy, enthalpy, etc... Just happen by chance. I say these are rules. They represent order. We do not know why it happens only that it does. Order cannot come from chaos without energy. Where did the energy come from and who manipulated it.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:15 am |
    • CygnusX1

      Wasp, nice attack on on me rather than refute arguments.
      Pearls before swine is in the bible too.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:25 am |
    • WASP

      @cyg: "We simply use the physics. We didn't create them."

      agreed, we didn't create the laws of physics; however neither did zues, odin ra or your nameless god.
      the long and short of physics for those interested:
      everything is energy, thus your body has mass because the atoms in your body have mass, every time you place your body on a scale you are merely seeing the effect gravity (one of the five forces of the universe) has on your mass. that's it, nothing more. every human has a pull due to our mass, nothing even close to the pull of say our planet. each of our atoms are held together by "strong and weak atomic forces" (which are two more of the forces of the universe.) if i throw you into a "atom smasher" it would be the weak atomic force that would be broken allowing the release of all energy your body is comprised of. seeing atoms are made of energy, when matter is destroyed it reverts back to energy in one form or another.

      short of it we have laws of physics due to the interactions of the energy that is everything in this universe; without those interactions there wouldn't be a universe for you to claim "god did it"

      June 12, 2013 at 7:37 am |
    • sam stone

      good comeback, lol?? now put your shotgun in your mouth and go meet jesus, if you have the courage

      June 12, 2013 at 7:40 am |
    • WASP

      @cyg: "Wasp, nice attack on on me rather than refute arguments.
      Pearls before swine is in the bible too."

      that wasn't an attack, it was merely an observation based on the only logical conclusion i could come to. the statement of "pearls before swine" was used as an insult, thus you logically believe yourself to be better than those you are communicating with; which likewise shows that your true nature is that of a person that looks down on others. those type of people are emotional and more often then not bullies, in the least they are controling because they are afraid. with such emotions in a person the likelyhood of them being capaible of logical thought is minimal.

      and the quote being in the bible means nothing to me, it also said that i can own anyone not of my nation and sell my daughters.............if i had any. lol so you just proved my point, thank you.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:43 am |
    • CygnusX1

      Sorry guys, I can't stay and play all day. Gotta go and use my eng degrees and go to work. Not sure how people can sit around and post all morning, unless your unemployed or still a student.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:46 am |
    • G to the T

      "Order Cannot come from Chaos" – Whey do I keep hearing this argument. OF COURSE ORDER can come from Chaos. And there already has to be energy for there to be chaos or else nothing would in motion (i.e. chaotic). If there are an infinite possibilities in chaos, then it's logical to assume that apparent order can come out of chaos (it would be an infinite subset of the chaotic set).

      The problem is the word "order" – Order is an external judgement made about a system. The chances of dealing a perfect hand of cards to 4 people (1 gets all hearts, 1 gets all spades, 1 gets all diamonds and 1 gets all clubs) IS EXACTLY THE SAME as dealing a hand of "random" cards.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:47 am |
    • WASP

      @lol: "wasp sayz,
      "............or your nameless god......................"

      then if you would be so kind LOL; what is your god's name?
      i know jews call him YHVH, as i was raised southern baptist no name was given; however in in EXODUS 3:14 as per moses request he answers him " i am that i am"

      so you should have his TRUE name to tell us all, correct?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:49 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      That's several times you've confused your with you're.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:50 am |
    • WASP

      @cyg: " Not sure how people can sit around and post all morning, unless your unemployed or still a student."

      wrong on both accounts, but thanks for playing.
      i don't know about the others, however i'm employed by a fortune 500 company and merely happen to have internet access that grants me this ability. it's just how i burn time at work. lmfao

      bye bye CYG.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:52 am |
    • Science

      WASP

      lmafo

      I am a stony guy.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:58 am |
    • Science

      WASP what is it in the bible sh-it 4. something ?

      June 12, 2013 at 8:01 am |
    • Science

      Hey .........lol?? chill out !

      Ca-nabis and Cannabinoids (PDQ®) – National Cancer Insti-tute

      http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/.../page4

      Mar 21, 2013 – [1,2] These plant-derived compounds may be referred to as phytocannabinoids. ... have a protective effect against the development of certain types of tumors. ... In lung cancer cell lines, CBD upregulated ICAM-1, leading to ...

      Good stuff !

      June 12, 2013 at 8:33 am |
  18. Glenn

    YouTube , Sunday laws & evolution-facts.org

    June 12, 2013 at 6:25 am |
    • Patrick Gurrie

      Which is the more rational belief? That almighty God created the universe or that absolutely nothing created a big bang that instantly created a hot and chaotic universe? There is strong evidence of patterns and intelligent design in nature and it is harder for me to imagine all that beauty just came from nothing and no Creator. The beauty tells me the Creator also loves his creation.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:47 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      Who created the creator? And who created that creator? And that creator?

      Infinite regress.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:52 am |
    • CygnusX1

      Why would someone or something have to have created the creator. Perhaps he was always there. Just like the singularities of matter and anti matter that collided with each other in the infinate singualarity that is nothingness. And I use the term singularity to point out that we cannot calculate infinite probabilities let alone matter so small it has no shape.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:59 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that

      And perhaps the universe has always been here, big banging and big crunching in an endless cycle.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:04 am |
    • Colin

      "Why would someone or something have to have created the creator. Perhaps he was always there." So why not just say the Universe was lawyas there. Why add on a creator if you accept that things can always be?

      June 12, 2013 at 7:13 am |
    • WASP

      @cyg: "Why would someone or something have to have created the creator. Perhaps he was always there."

      i am seriously questioning your claim of being well educated by your above post.

      1)we may not know if a "god" has always been here but we do know that energy has always been here.
      2) we know this because everything in this universe is comprised of energy
      3)energy can not be created nor destroyed, thus the amount of energy in this universe remains constant
      4) energy can shift between forms; meaning energy to matter and matter to energy
      5) if you wish to understand the singularity event/big bang simply look at how our star was born and how why it doesn't just blow up or poof out of exsistance.
      6) physics truly isn't that hard to understand do a bit more studying.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:15 am |
    • MM

      "Why would someone or something have to have created the creator."

      Then why did something have to create us? It works both ways. You can't opt out of the creator's creator question just because you define the creator as not needing creation.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:16 am |
    • G to the T

      "Beauty" like "Order" is a subjective assessment and has no objective reality. So whenever you see both, remember, that's just your opinion. From a larger or smaller perspective, that same object of "beauty" or "order" would be shown to be anything but.

      June 12, 2013 at 7:50 am |
  19. Science

    The EARTH was not created by a fairy in the sky...............fred

    The water and chondrites................life providing stones.

    Water On Moon, Earth Came from Same Primitive Meteorites

    Water On May 9, 2013 — The water found on the moon, like that on Earth, came from small meteorites called carbonaceous chondrites in the first 100 million years or so after the solar system formed, researchers from Brown and Case Western Reserve universities and Carnegie Insti-tution of Washington have found.Moon, Earth Came from Same Prim-itive Meteorites

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130509142102.htm

    Peace

    June 12, 2013 at 6:24 am |
  20. Roland

    I think it is a very good thing that the 'gay lobby', whatever that may be, has entered the catholic church. Not all catholics will like this, but many will think: finally.

    June 12, 2013 at 5:49 am |
    • Brian Smith

      DON`T FORGET UNDER MUSLIM SHARIA LAW , GAYS AND LESBIANS ARE LABEL AS INFIDELS ACCORDING DR . JACK VAN IMPE ` S SHARIA LAW TEACHING VIDEO IN WHICH I HAVE IN MY LIBRARY !

      June 12, 2013 at 6:16 am |
    • afr52

      If a gay lobby was a good thing, the church wouldn't have gone out of the way to cover it up as they have for the last fifty years. Too much child abuse has occurred while the church covered up and protected the gay pedophile priests in the ranks. At least the Pope is finally admitting what many gay Catholics have known for years. They should really investigate the Chicago archdiocese as there are many gay priests and lay workers there.

      June 12, 2013 at 6:20 am |
    • sam stone

      Ah, old "helmet head" van impe, with "too many meds" rexella

      June 12, 2013 at 6:21 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.