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 Members of an atheist congregation at Harvard listen to music during a recent gathering.
June 22nd, 2013
11:25 AM ET
Church without God - by designBy Dan Merica, CNN Boston (CNN)-– It’s Sunday in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and a rapt congregation listens to a chaplain preach about the importance of building a community. A few dozen people sit quietly for the hourlong service. Music is played, announcements are made and scholars wax poetic about the importance of compassion and community. Outsiders could be forgiven for believing this service, with its homilies, its passing of the plate, its uplifting songs, belongs in a church. If so, it’s a church without one big player: God. Sunday’s congregation in Cambridge is a meeting of the Humanist Community at Harvard University and the brainchild of Greg Epstein, the school’s Humanist chaplain. A longtime advocate for community building, Epstein and his group of atheists have begun to build their Cambridge community and solemnize its Sunday meetings to resemble a traditional religious service. To Epstein, religion is not all bad, and there is no reason to reject its helpful aspects. “My point to my fellow atheists is, why do we need to paint things with such a broad brush? We can learn from the positive while learning how to get rid of the negative," he said. Godless congregations For Epstein, who started community-building at Harvard nearly 10 years ago, the idea of a godless congregation is not an oxymoron. “We decided recently that we want to use the word congregation more and more often because that is a word that strongly evokes a certain kind of community - a really close knit, strong community that can make strong change happen in the world,” he said. “It doesn’t require and it doesn't even imply a specific set of beliefs about anything.” Epstein is not alone in his endeavor. Jerry DeWitt, who became an atheist and left his job as an evangelical minister, is using his pastoral experience to building an atheist church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. This Sunday, DeWitt's congregation will hold its first meeting as a "Community Mission Chapel." "When you become a part of this congregation, this community, you are going to become part of a family," DeWitt told CNN. "There is an infrastructure there for you to land in. There is going to be someone there to do weddings and to do, unfortunately, the funerals." READ MORE: Unbelieving preachers get help to 'come out' as open atheists Sunday school for atheists As members of the Cambridge congregation file into a wood-paneled classroom at Harvard, singer Shelley Segal greets them with a few songs from her latest recording, called simply, “An Atheist Album.” Taking a hint from the theme of the event, Segal strums on her guitar and belts her song, “Gratitude.” “I don't believe in a great power to say thank you to,” Segal sings. “But that won’t take away from my gratitude.”  Harvard's humanist chaplain Greg Epstein leads an atheist gathering. After the music, Epstein offers a few words of greeting before the meeting gets to its heart: a discussion about compassion. A four academics and a journalist discuss the effects of religion on raising children and their ideas about compassion. Congregants listen intently, some even taking notes. Each service has a message – compassion, evolution or acceptance - after which congregants engage in a lengthy discussion. Before the main event, kids are invited to what some parents refer to as “Sunday school,” where Tony Debono, a biologist Massachusetts Institute of Technology, teaches the youngsters about evolution, DNA and cells. There's little talk about organized religion, positive or negative. Likewise, down in Louisiana, said his atheist services will not be anti-religion. "What we are looking at doing is different," DeWitt said. "If you are a religionist and you come and sit in our pew, the only way you can leave offended is because of what you don’t hear and what you don’t see. We won’t be there to make a stance against religion or against God." Coming out of the closet In the last few years, the number of “nones” – those who don’t associate with any organized religion – has grown at a rate faster than any other group. Nones now represent one in five Americans, according to a 2012 Pew Research Center poll. Although the number of atheists has grown, too, there are still a large number of “nones” that choose not to associate with the label “atheist.” Some at Harvard’s Humanist congregation fall into this category. “I don’t particularly have a religion,” said Anil Nyer, a neurologist who brought his daughter to Humanist Sunday school. But Nyer also said he didn’t want to label himself as an atheist. One reason to shy away from the atheist label: Many Americans hold a negative impression of nonbelievers. According to a recent Public Religion Research Institute poll, nearly 40 percent of Americans believe that atheists are changing American culture for the worse. “Whenever we put atheists on a list like this and we compare them to other groups, atheists tend to come in towards the bottom of that list,” said Robert P. Jones is the CEO of Public Religion Research Institute. “Americans tend to hold a lot of reservations about atheists.” Epstein hopes his congregation can change that. By formalizing meetings and building a strong community, the Harvard group hopes it can be a model for other atheist congregations forming around the country.  A group meets during an atheist gathering in Boston. More atheists may come of the closet if they know a congregation will be there to support them, Epstein said, “Being an atheist is something we want people to come out and be,” said the Humanist chaplain. “There are so many people, probably millions, who are humanists or atheists or nonreligious in private and nobody knows." Epstein said he gets e-mails daily from people founding atheist meet-up groups. “Tulsa, Oklahoma; North Carolina; London; Vancouver, Canada; Houston, Texas,” Epstein said, listing the sources of the most recent e-mails. “One part of what we are saying is come on out and let your neighbors know” about your disbelief, he said. “It is not going to make you worse of a person, it is going to make you a better person to be more open about who you are.” Rituals for the irreligious For the last few years, the Humanist Community at Harvard has operated out of a small three-floor walk-up off the bustling streets of Harvard Square. The walls are littered with posters about atheism – tributes to famed atheists Eddie Izzard, Seth MacFarlane and Stephen Fry. Because of the scattered furniture and the Harvard dorm feel, Epstein jokingly describes the space as “college broke chic.” That’s being generous – but it's also about to change. Starting in the fall, the Humanist Community at Harvard will begin meeting in a nearly 3,000-square-foot community center with an event space for nearly 100 people. Although the plan is to use the space at the group’s headquarters, it will also serve as a broader community center for the group that Epstein and others are trying to build in the Boston area. “What we really would like to see is a community center where people can come by at anytime and to use it as a space to study or have a meeting for various committee,” said Chris Stedman, the assistant humanist chaplain at Harvard. Stedman said he sees the new building as a place for people to gather, not only to become part of a humanist community, but to also become more engaged with the world. When he talks about his plans for the future, Epstein appears to long for a time when the new community center could mimic aspects of church - a place for baby-naming ceremonies, weddings and funerals. The success of an atheist church will depend on walking the thin line between too much and too little ritual, Epstein said. Humanists boast a proud freethinking streak, and some at the Harvard event said they don’t want to be associated with any sort of dogma or belief system - or even a system based on disbelief. Anyway, Esptein said his congregation will be less a group of people united by beliefs - or disbelief - and more like an opera, or a painting. “Our community is like a work of art," he said. "Hopefully people will respond to that work of art and it will garner controversy and discussion like a work of art." soundoff (6,897 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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You can eat a steak, or,
you can politely rest your butter knife through a perfectly cooked medium that melts in your mouth like warm, fresh tuna.
.
I messed that one up. I am so stupid, I wish I was never born.
97% would disagree with me in public
A much smaller percentage would disagree if off the record. Research it yourself.
Evolution News – http://www.evolutionnews.org
http://www.evolutionnews.org
jboom,
Do you accept genetics as sound science?
Science is nothing more than a medium to learn constant of matter, more a human works on it, more they are allowed to peek into knowledge of truth absolute GOD.
Who in the hell cares?
Books of Creationism and Intelligence Design have been banned in American public schools. You know why? Because those kind of books would make young mind stupid.
But ID researchers' studies have helped to advance various fields of study with respect to evolution.
Not just their own research, but by stimulating other researchers to defend or refine their theories.
Google search "pbs nova intelligent design on trial" and watch the video or get a 6th grade Biology book to educate yourself please.
I'm certain my understanding is beyond that of a 6th grader, probably a high school student, most college students.
I'd encourage you to check the most up to date news on findings from various ID researchers at the above web site in the OP.
Why are the ID books banned from public schools then?
jboom
What science has ID ever done?
Paul,
There are ID researchers in many fields.
I'd start at uncommondescent.com
I believe there is a long list there of researchers.
One specific example would be this:
Evolutionists predicted much DNA was functionless and junk and evidence against design.
ID researchers predicted that "junk DNA" should have function.
Now, science findings are showing ID researchers' correct and evolution predictions incorrect.
bob,
"why are ID books banned from public schools"
Its thought that ID violates separation of church and state.
However, this is an incorrect understanding of ID. ID is often mistaken as "creationism in disguise".
ID stops where science should stop. It does not speculate on matters that pertain to religion.
Its does not attempt to prove, or even offer evidence for any particular god or gods.
jboom
Just because science corrects itself, and that a function for most noncoding DNA seems apparent, doesn't mean that ID has gained any credibility. Where, exactly, is evolution discredited by the authors of the ENCODE papers?
@jboom
Where are the IDers who suggest that Odin, Jupiter, Coyote, or some other creator other than God could have been responsible? I saw that Dover case doc, and it's pretty clear that they're just creationists posing in labcoats, trying to look like scientists, but only fooling the gullible.
It's really ironic that, when ID/creationists find something that a scientist says which kinda supports their side, then science is great, but it's rotten all the rest of the time when they disagree with them. Gee, now who else likes to cherry pick which things they'd rather cite as authorative? Christians?
Hal,
It is called the CM or "convenient method" of science and literary criticism (as it applies to their scriptures)."
A continuation of their dishonesty...jboom being a predictable spokesperson...
timothy,
"Where are the IDers who suggest that Odin, Jupiter, Coyote, or some other creator other than God could have been responsible?
ID constructs a scientific case against neo-Darwinian evolution. The work of the researcher should stand apart from the researcher's religous belief. Steven Weinberg hopes his work in physics will help to destroy religion. Does his motivation invalidate his science. No.
ID gauges the explanatory power of evolutionary mechanisms to produce various biological functions or objects. ID predicts there should be structures beyond the reach of chance-based Darwinian mechanisms.
Evolutionary explanation of the bacterial flagellum does not address all the problems raised by ID researchers.
This in and of itself drove the need for attempts at explanation and research. ID should be welcomed on this ground alone. But its not, because Darwin theory is a theory in trouble. The more we find out, the more trouble its in.
Its gone from a theory in crisis just a little over a decade ago to a theory seeking legal protection today!
It will probably be protected for a couple of decades. But the process of protecting it will result in exposure of much of its weakness.
In the end, when ID triumphs, evolutionists need not fear for job security, or lack of research funding. ID research will not show that evolution does not happen. Evolution certainly happens at certain levels and within certain bounds.
jboom says:
ID constructs a scientific case against neo-Darwinian evolution
Once again, Christians do "research" to save their faith that they feel is being attacked instead of focusing on the great suffering and need of the world and the individuals in their co mmunities. (When your God is coming back soon, that type of valuable research and effort and kindness and caring is pointless).
Odd how they focus on things like evolution, abortion, and ho mos exuality instead of even trying to comply with their gospels, particularly those painful verses like Matthew 25:31ff and Luke 6:27ff...and actually making a difference every day in every life...You all are, afterall, the holders of Truth and Love.
But as we have seen, the daily life of the Christian is testimony enough of their denial of their messiah.
The research is their job – they are scientists.
And if my predictions are wrong and the ID fails, it does not invalidate Christian faith.
Numerous Christians are involved in numerous care ministries. CNN probably won't cover too much of it though.
Central to Christian faith and life is the Christian's recognition of one's fallenness and inclination to do and be less than what one is made to do and be. This fallenness itself is not testament to denial of Christ, nor of hypocracy.
jboom,
I like your bumper sticker Christianity: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." And yet you focus on the sins of others with such fervor, such pa ssion. (And despite the supposed power of the blood of your savior, you guys can't even get over the same sins...)
No, the term "hypocrite" is a badge of honor for Christians. The reality is that you are without integrity, without character and without kindness, compa ssion and caring.
And, as I've pointed out above...you, jboom, are a liar.
But that would be par for the course.
jboom
There are so many dozen other sources of evidence supporting evolution than DNA so, even with that aside, this isn't any "smoking gun" thing that will even hurt it amongst rational-thinking people.
As far as I can tell, the only thing that IDers "do" is pick through the work of real scientists looking for quotes to mine out of context. They don't actually do any original research, do they?
Although I very highly, highly doubt it, ID may eventually prove correct, but that still makes it wrong to just believe that it will eventually do that in light of the mountains of evidence supporting evolution theory.
timothy,
I see your pint; however, I have good reason to believe that the current theory of evolution
The reason I predict the eventual demise of Darwinian theory of evolution is for a few reasons:
1.ID researchers have made significant progress in exposing weaknesses of modern, current Darwinian theory
2.There are more and more scientists that are finally willing to take the heat for even questioning the orthodox view on current theory of evolution
3. Evidence in support of modern theory of evolution is quite thin – it does fit the evolutionary theory, but the same evidence also fits the ID theory
4. There are a few apparent smoking guns raised by ID researchers that as of today have not been adequately answered
5. The media is slowly beginning to see and understand the differences between ID and traditional creationists; and ID will eventually receive a fair hearing (Dover case notwithstanding due to a variety of legitimate appeals)
Much of the mountain of evidence that is cited either supports small scale evolution (HIV virus, bacterial resistantce, etc.), OR, is merely adopted uncritically and is interpreted within a Darwinian, naturalistic mindset (fossil record and DNA record). When we look at the evidence more critically, it becomes much more apparent that the evidence is neutral and no more denies evolution than ID.
Darwin himself believed in considering the both sides of the theory. Finally, more and more are willing to be ostracized and attacked for doing so. But too many remain silent out of fear of jeopardizing their career. Some very well respected university researchers that are critical of Darwin theory advise younger researchers to simply go with the flow lest they hurt their careers.
There a beaning and always an end, human exist by understanding and physical form is to exist to understand, to be able to understand matters in understood physical form. As GOD truth absolute said, I gave Adam limited knowledge, and rest, him and his off springs were guided and educated by my seeded messengers, angels and Jin, hindus, ignorant pray to as their gods. Humanity is on her height of knowledge, she has ever been, and evolution is another word for progress, not initiation, as has been propagated in hinduism, as religion, and tall claim made by so called knowledgeable, rest assured, until and unless humanity have knowledge of spirit, the dark matter, rest assured, they will not be able to understand, unless LORD GOD, truth absolute grants them to be able to peek into his vast knowledge.
stop drinking Pee-Cola Mohammad
If you don't believe in evolution, do you believe genetics is sound science? If you do, then you have no choice but to accept evolution, it is a consequence of genetics.
bost,
Read "Darwin's Doubt" !
and "Signature in the Cell"
now, here come the attacks on the author from people who read the trolls' reviews as encourage by Dawkins who told the atheists to attack, mock, and smear ...
jboom,
Do you accept genetics as sound science?
jboom, Just because you have a godwho tells you what to do doesn't mean everyone does. Most of the world's atheists have never read Dawkins, and atheists existed for many, many years before he was born. And a radical tip? There's been a lot of science since Darwin. Catch up, and then rejoin the conversation.
Genetics is physical form, dependent on dark matter, spirit to be, no different then a product by NC controlled machine, but product can never guide a user to learn, sequence of program of NC machine. One has to learn secrete behind existence of genetics, before making such a tall claim in support of so called hinduism ignorance called Evolution.
Sarasw,
"there's been a lot of science since darwin"
Actually, you can get up to date here:
http://www.uncommondescent.com/
http://www.evolutionnews.org/evolution/
Hey chad/jboom..........how old is it ?
Bone Tumor in 120,000-Year-Old Neandertal Discovered
June 7, 2013 — The first-known definitive case of a benign bone tumor has been discovered in the rib of a young Neandertal
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130605190144.htm
Hey jbummer.................works better than Adams BONE
whats your point? The earth is old?
As science progresses, its actually getting tougher to believe in evolution as the explanation for all life diversity.
And it by definition cannot explain origin of life.
I was once a theistic evolutionist (before that I was an atheist), but I predict in the future, science will bury the theory of macroevolution and we will look back on it as a curiosity that retarded the progress of science.
After all, if it were not for intelligent design ID, how long would it have taken evol to discard its junk DNA hopes.
Who ever said evolution could explain the origin of life, you moron?
Nobody but asses who haven't a clue what they're talking about. Only idiots like you would even mention such asinine nonsense.
What IDer would design an amusement park in the middle of a sewage system?
Intelligent Design is stupid design.
Ahhh yes, the diversity of life. Truly an argument for a deity. Why so many niche animals when one would have done quite nicely. Why so many varieties of spiders when a simple Spider would suffice? Why do some animals hunt with tooth and claw and some with poison when the best way would have been a-ok? Why do some animals feel the need to raise and care for their offspring and others go 'meh, let 'em fend for themselves'?
Ooooo it's mysterious! Spells and unicorns and deities!
So you guys uses common design as a testament to evolution
and you use diversity of design as a testament to evolution.
Interesting that creationists use both as a testament to creationism.
If ID is true, then who designed the designer? An even more intelligent intelligent designer designer? Then who designed the intelligent intelligent designer designer? An even more intelligent intelligent designer designer? Where does the buck stop, as the say? The whole concept of an intelligent designer is, well, not all that intelligent. In fact, it is absurd. But it's an easy out for the "intelligence challenged" among us.
ID does not delve into such matters that belong to the realm of theology or philosophy.
However, in case you are interested, Christians and Jews believe God, the maker of all things visible and invisible, is without beginning and without end; He is uncreated.
Religious belief has little to do with reality. But it's comfort to the non-thinkers.
Athy,
Actually, there are a lot of thinkers who are atheists and theists.
Seeking truth with the fullness of our intellects is good. The more we do that and the longer we do that, we realize that both theism and atheism go beyond the intellect. We intellectualize on matters such as the goodness of God and the problem of pain and suffering, the matter of free will, and on and on. Its important to understand that great minds, atheists and theists, have discussed and dialogued over these and other great intellectual and philosophical matters; and that its important to know the full dialogue and not just a few slices of the dialogue or just those slices that are of current interest to us.
These matters are discussed by very intelligent minds. Intelligent atheists and intelligent theists.
Its quite common for atheists to become very strong theists. And some theists become atheists as well.
... but after all the intellectualizing, after the atheist and the theist are both intellectually satisfied, are they both spiritually satisfied? I don't mean as in wishful thinking, or comfort.
You'd say the theist is deluded. I say the theists recognizes that he is more than atoms.
You can try to argue away art and music, 'cuz I'd say it goes beyond anything that.
But what it does not do, is avoid or neglect the intellect.
It's embarrassing that the US is alone among countries with educated people that scientific facts are denied. Come on, believe your god made evolution happen, don't say there isn't evolution. That's no different than saying the sun goes around the earth.
we are willing to follow the science
read up on it and convince yourself there is no fraud, deceipt, or biased "science" in evolution
Truly embarrassing. England has Charles Darwin on their 10 pound note. The Us has "In God We Trust" on its currency. (Face palm)
It's embarrassing that people like jboom aren't laughed out of every forum and gathering into which they crawl.
jboom,
Scientists are smart enough to develop antibiotics, mass produced fertilizer to feed people by taking nitrogen from the air, the light bulb, the printing press, anesthetics, too many other medicines to name, electronic/photonic computers and communication connecting the world, electricity to power the world, the refrigerator to preserve food, pasteurization to preserve food, medical devices like X-Rays, NMR, ultrsound, stethoscope, optical and other sensors like telescopes, microscopes to open our awareness of the universe at many more scales, artificial materials like plastics,...but they are charlatans with respect to evolution?
Ridiculous.
Only for real truth seekers:
Ever heard of the Alternberg 16.
"According to Mazur, there are "hundreds of other evolutionary scientists (non-Creationists) who contend that natural selection is politics, not science, and that we are in a quagmire because of staggering commercial investment in a Darwinian industry built on an inadequate theory." (emphasis added) One of those scientists is evolutionary biologist Stanley Salthe, who Mazur reports "can't get published":
Stanley Salthe, a natural philosopher at Binghamton University with a PhD in zoology - who says he can't get published in the mainstream media with his views - largely agrees with Lewontin. But Salthe goes further. He told me the following: "Oh sure natural selection's been demonstrated . . . the interesting point, however, is that it has rarely if ever been demonstrated to have anything to do with evolution in the sense of long-term changes in populations. . . . Summing up we can see that the import of the Darwinian theory of evolution is just unexplainable caprice from top to bottom. What evolves is just what happened to happen."
– See more at: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/07/credibility_gap_in_damage_cont009001.html#sthash.4SzluyM6.dpuf
@Secular humanist, The UK has a state religion; the US does not.
"Only for real truth seekers..." Is that like the no true Scotsman argument?
@Saraswati
Why on earth then do we have "In God we Trust" on our currency if there is no state religion?
jboom,
I hate to break it to you, but scientists relish finding fault in previous results, that is a sure path to scientific greatness.
You need to distinguish evolution from evolutionary theories. Evolution is a fact, the theories are getting tested and improved over time. Think of gravity. It is a fact, but Newton's theory was incomplete. Einstein's theory is better, but may not fully encompass it.
@Secular Humanist, An unfortunate series of historical events and a weird political system. I'd sure like to see it gone, but demanding it off isn't going to work at this point. A more effective campain would be to revive E pluribus unum as the main (and much better) national monument. I believe, actually, that the E Pluribus Unum Project crosses out the In God We Trust motto on bills and writes in E pluribus unum in its place.
Saraswati,
A state religion is embarrassing, but at least the English accept evolution by and large. National religion is an old tradition, acceptance of evolution is a modern choice.
@Saraswati
It was more of a rhetorical question. I know the why historically, I don't know the why given that the United States is a secular nation.
Bostonola, Agreed.
We should remember, btw, that there are a few countries, like Poland, that are better educated and more religious than the US, and a lot of nutty, quasi-religious ideas elsewhere. Qi in China, homeopathy in northern Europe and blood typing in Ja'pan are every bit as crack pot. I lived in a town in England that hosted anthroposophy, scientology and at least one other even nuttier belief system (based on music's spiritual powers). I'm not disagreeing there's a problem that can improve, but the replacements just aren't always as good as you hope.
The Central Scrutinizer is observing the blog and enforcing the laws that haven't been passed yet. Thank you.
"the greatest lie" is the greatest liar.
Admittedly so.
Hey, has "Fortune Holds More for the Bold" resurfaced?
What a turd.
Interesting ...
Though NewScientist affirms the Cambrian Explosion, the article leaves out "that the fossil organisms we've uncovered from the Precambrian had "bodies" that were so "simple" that they cannot explain the sudden burst of complex animal form that appears in the Cambrian."
– See more at: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/06/as_darwins_doub073571.html#sthash.fNsZu4kF.dpuf
From New Scientists Magazine (June 21, 2013):
"Life on Earth experienced a singular revolution just over 500 million years ago. In a geological blink of an eye, most groups of the animal kingdom appeared in the Earth's oceans and then diversified. The acquisition of skeletons, the advent of predation and the rise of complex ecosystems all occurred in what's known as the Cambrian explosion of marine animals. Life took such a giant leap forward in abundance and complexity during the Cambrian that the rock record itself was indelibly changed.
Evolutionary change isn't supposed to happen so abruptly, at least not according to Charles Darwin. "Darwin's dilemma" over the Cambrian explosion was explained away in his On the Origin of Species as an artefact of an incomplete geological record, one that failed to preserve fossils of a long Precambrian history of slow-paced animal evolution. A century and a half of study has shown that Darwin was right – animals do indeed have a Precambrian origin. A fossil record of that long history of simple bodies and behaviours has now been uncovered, proving that the Cambrian explosion was a real evolutionary phenomenon that needed to be explained.
the doubt of Darwin still remains:
"Among the mysteries of evolution, one of the most profound is what exactly happened at the beginning of the Cambrian period. Before that period, which started 541m years ago and ran on for 56m years, life was a modest thing. Bacteria had been around for about 3 billion years, but for most of this time they had had the Earth to themselves. Seaweeds, jellyfish-like creatures, sponges and the odd worm do start to put in an appearance a few million years before the Cambrian begins. But red in tooth and claw the Precambrian was not - for neither teeth nor claws existed.
Then, in the 20m-year blink of a geological eye, animals arrived in force. Most of the main groups of the animal kingdom - arthropods, brachiopods, coelenterates, echinoderms, molluscs and even chordates, the branch from which vertebrates went on to develop - are found in the fossil beds of the Cambrian. The sudden evolution of this megafauna is known as the Cambrian explosion. But two centuries after it was noticed, in the mountains of Wales after which the Cambrian period is named, nobody knows what detonated it. (emphasis added)"
From "The Economist", March 2013
– See more at:
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/06/as_darwins_doub073571.html#sthash.fNsZu4kF.dpuf
What point are you making?
Animals existed before Adam and eve were lowered to earth from heaven, and science confirms sequence of human settlement on earth. Just more proof of creation, nothing more.
Chard/jbloom doesn't have a point, other than the one on his head.
Evolution occurred, is occurring, and will probably continue to occur. No god required or in evidence.
Evolution is not controversial among scientists. About 97% will say it's a fact.
Most scientists believed in spontaneous generation for quite some time too – whats the point?
As science progresses, its actually getting tougher to believe in evolution.
I was once a theistic evolutionist (before that I was an atheist), but I predict in the future, science will bury the theory of evolution and we will look back on it as a curiosity that retarded the progress of science.
After all, if it were not for intelligent design ID, how long would it have taken evol to discard its junk DNA hopes.
"As science progresses, its actually getting tougher to believe in evolution."
Only for idiots who don't know jack about science.
'I'z dun no wut hapined, musta been gawd'.
Something heard and seen with distressing regularity.
Hi Damo! *waves to Damo*
Tom,
"only for idiots"
There are thousands of scientists who would disagree with you.
damocles,
this is not the case. Its rather because of what we are discovering that actually puts the show on the other foot.
Its the evolutionists who must come up with another model.
You can feel secure all you want. Read your dawkins and pop lit.
Lets see where its at in 20 years, 30 years.
If we could only let the science truly run its course...
*waves back with much enthusiasm!*
@jboom
Thousands?
@jboom
97% of scientists would disagree with you.
@jboom
You misunderstand me, which is fine because at the end of the day I could care less. I could also really care less what Dawkins or anybody else says. I respect the intelligence, but that doesn't mean I get all wet and giggly at everything he says. I, as a human, am perfectly capable of coming up with whatever idea that gets me through the day. When I die and if I go to some sparkly place run by a deity then great, maybe it and I can shoot the crap on all the things that run through my mind. If it's a vindictive little jerk then I was justified in not really caring about it while living. If I die and rot in the ground, that's fine too, because I won't know.
97% would disagree with me in public
A much smaller percentage would disagree if off the record. Research it yourself.
Evolution News – http://www.evolutionnews.org
http://www.evolutionnews.org
Hey jboom do you know chondrites to sell for big money !
jboom.................you know about carbon -14 ?
carbon-14?
What the heck are you suggesting?
ID researchers do accept an old earth!
OK – it seems all your really saying is that natural selection and genetic drift cannot account for the cambrian explosion or "macro evolution".
First off – you automatically "fail" for distinguishing between "micro" and "macro" evolution, there is no differece except the scale you wish to observe the process at. And second, the above are not the only theories of evolution that exist (punctuated equilibrium for instance). NONE of these theories say that genetic drift, natural selection or "macro" evolution exist; they mearly look to add onto the existing model to try and create a more accurate model (hence the newton/einstein reference used above). No matter how you couch it, ID finds apparent "holes" in the TOE and trys to insert a supernatural designer. That step, is NOT scientific as it closes off further inquiry and is the same as saying "godidit".
There is a distinction between micro and macro. The terms have real meaning.
1) Macro is an extrapolation of micro given enough time. 2) We have abundant evidence for micro, and everybody from all school of thought agrees with that. 3) There are more difficulties to explain with macro than micro
The 'god of the gaps' argument (if we do not understand X, then God did it) you refer is not what ID relies upon.
Rather, ID attempts to show evidence of intel design based on what IS known.
"That step, is NOT scientific as it closes off further inquiry"
Its very clear in the ID literature (including from the very first book on the topic – Behe's Darwin's Black Box) that ID in now way suggests that scientific inquiry should be or would be cut off. On the contrary, ID promotes even more scientific investigation, more studies, more discussion. So your statement above is what helps give folks the wrong impressions about ID.
You can read more about ID's real goal here:
idthefuture.com
uncommondescent.com
No religious affiliation group growing. If a social option emerges for them, religion could be challenged with time. It would be cool if the US led the way. Rational thinking is our only chance to outcompete the Asians.
Is it true that the digital information content of the human person would fill a stack of phone books as tall as the Washington monument?
It's called the internet, get a clue.
I heard thats the amount of digitally encoded content in DNA
Maximo,
Many organisms have a longer genome than humans, including some single called organisms and plants.
Does the maxipad have a point?
Props to all those that are hooked up to the cosmic frequency of life. Die with grace and you win the game of life.
One old couple............creationists/doogie where they fornicating in the burrow maybe ?
Oddest Couple Share 250 Million Year Old Burrow
June 22, 2013 — Scientists from South Africa, Australia and France have discovered a world first association while scanning a 250 million year old fossilised burrow from the Karoo Basin of South Africa.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130622154602.htm
Source of myth of number 666.
Source of number 666 is none other than hinduism denial of truth, inventors of trinity,
Limit of truth absolute 360*
Divide by hindu atheism, criminal self center ism, between two men as gods, 360/2= 180. = o.5 of 360*. 0.5 / 3 = 1.666.
handy work of hindu lucifer, crook secular to hind fool humanity.
GO HOME ET !!! STOP HARASSING HUMANS
Did you hear about prince Harry?
1 Kings 10:14 ►
New International Version (©2011)
The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents,
Prince harry is none other from linage hindu racist umlaties of Persia. Also known as Parsi.
All these atheist and humanist groups are little more than self-congratulatory circle-jerks.
These people wish to form a bond with others that think and feel like they do. How is that any different than people that belong to a religion going to their church? If this group is able to help others in their community, isn't that a good thing? Why the anger towards them?
Is that there are more than a few so called atheists to form a group. As for helping others???to what???atheists have brutally tortured and murdered more innocent people in the last 100 years than were killed in all previous centuries.
No anger, it's a self-congratulatory circle-jerk. I bare them no ill-will. Church groups are self-congratulatory circle-jerks also, but at least they share a common belief. Surely one of the benefits of being an atheist is to rise above such petty reasons for social gatherings. You should associate with people who you share similar hobbies and beliefs with. Associating with somebody based on a shared disbelief is ridiculous.
the greatest lie
At least your moniker describes your post.
the greatest lie,
The Bible says that when God got done TORTUROUSLY DROWNING people there were ONLY EIGHT left.
What was your point, if any?
@the greatest lie
Atheists also eat their babies and those of everyone else.
So tell us observer haw many people were there besides the eight?
I'm sorry Dave: Ok I see where you're coming from and you make some valid points. I would only join a group like this to help those in my community. But as an agnostic I agree it is a waste of time for us to get togethere and discuss the 'age of questions' since I could care less about those questions.
oops how many were there. i can tell you with some historical accuracy that atheist Joe Stalin was responsible for 60 million murders and that is but one example.
the greatest lie
"So tell us observer haw many people were there besides the eight?"
There were so many people that God needed 40 days and nights of raining and destroyed MILLIONS of animals.
is that atheists are caring abortion is the rotten fruit from the tree of atheism.
@ the greatest lie
Your name suits you.
jazzguitarman
There are plenty of secular community groups already in existence, even in the darkest depths of the Bible Belt, I find it difficult to fathom why somebody would start community groups based on non-belief. Anyway, with most of these groups, community work is a side-issue to everybody patting themselves on the back for not believing in god/s.
is that observer can't tell anyone an accurate number because it doesn't have one, not to mention that when the righteous judge of this earth passes sentence it is not murder but justice.
the greatest lie,
The Bible NEVER mentions the word "abortion".
Why not read it someday?
the greatest lie; More christian women have abortions in this country than atheist women.
But I guess you can't admit that your religion fails in this regard.
the greatest lie,
GIve us a list of names of specific victims of the Great Flood or was it just a lie in the Bible?
@ the greatest lie
"the greatest lie
is that atheists are caring abortion is the rotten fruit from the tree of atheism."
Does not even make sense. Try again.
Could people just now stop replying to lie? He's getting what he wants.
Is in response to your comment that atheists eat babies, atheists don't eat babies they murder them in abortion mills
the greatest lie,
When God got done torturously drowning people there were ZERO pregnant women, children, babies and fetuses left on the face of the earth.
Can you give a number or not ? If you can't then you are just blowing smoke you really have nothing to say and since it was a righteous judgement you have nothing to say anyways . You don't like it, tough, try telling it all to God at your judgement.
@the greatest lie
Ok, atheists murder their babies and those of everyone else. Feel better now?
as are religions
Jesus was a control freak and passive aggressive.
the greatest lie
"Can you give a number or not ?"
Yes. ZERO. After God's TORTUROUSLY KILLING, there WASN"T EVEN ONE pregnant woman, child, baby or fetus left
That's what the Bible says. Ever read one?
God does not believe in a deity that has higher authority over him, that makes God an atheist.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHVRVFslme8&w=640&h=390]
fuck off all of you.
@the greatest lie
Music to my ears!
except i shouldnt lie and say Stalin did it because of atheism but as a way to control his people. but then my name is the greatest lie.
@the greatest lie, more than you could imagine! Good job!
A big thumbs up to this comment!
Some believe they're better because of their religion.
That is not just an opinion; it's a prejudice.
Teach your children well. Teach them to be free of prejudice.
prejudiced against Christ?
He is risen.
Jehovah Shammah
Our Lord Provides
Austin: nope, he's not.
Jesus is risen and I have proof.
@Austin
You said, "Jesus is risen"
Only if Jesus is a loaf of bread.
You said, "and I have proof."
I'm guessing 80 proof, or more.
“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that's my religion.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Humanism without God is like putting the cart before the horse. The first and great commandment is love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Number two is love your neighbor as yourself.
Almost right, value humanity, thought, and evidence.
Robert; Why do you care so much if others love a so called 'god"? If this group can help those that need help in the community, isn't that what counts? But not to you I see. Unless someone has the same religion as you they are flawed. In a Muslim country you would be a Taliban leader.
I have experienced the revelation of the Holy Spirit. The word of God was revealed as true through a supernatural gift.
So often claimed, never backed up – right, Austin ?
You don't have to back up something all ready set in stone. You don't have to struggle with reality after you experience it. You can allow it, and abide in it.
Which can be difficult. But Jehovah gives faith. He is there.
Robert Brown wrote, "The first and great commandment is love God with all your heart, soul, and mind."
Commanding one to love God by God's commandment sounds domineeringly commanding,
Austin
Your hallucinations are not proof.
The first and great commandment is love God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
No, the first great commandment is to fear God because he is a jealous evil pri(k who will torture you for eternity. Who can't love a dictator like that?
Jazzguitarman,
I agree that doing good things for people because you love people is wonderful.
Secular Ohio; I see the beauty in Lionlylamb words now.
@jazzguitarman
You are welcome, and please learn to use the reply button. It makes things much more comprehensive.
Secular; I do use the 'reply' button but I can only reply to the inital post in a 'chain'. (e.g. Robert in this chain), and NOT to those below the initial post. So unless I'm the first reply, I put the name of the person I'm replying too.
Does your 'reply' button show up next to each post?
@jazzguitarman
Not to each post , but it does a the beginning of a thread.
Prayer changes things.
God's work:
– Genesis 7:21 "And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings”
Since you willingly know that God has judged sin and will judge all sin you are left without excuse then.
Some believe they're better because of their religion.
That is not just an opinion; it's a prejudice.
Teach your children well. Teach them to be free of prejudice.
on pain and suffering:
*C.S. Lewis "On the Problem of Pain"
*also John Lennox
See CS Lewis for wonderful discussion on suffering and pain in his book "On Problem of Pain"
@ maximo
John Lennox, the creation apologist? Would never seriously consider.
folks, John Lennox is all over youtube
He has gained the respect of a lot of atheists.
The Big Bang is a theory of but one cosmic order but could there be myriads of Big Bangs that have happened and are happening and will happen long into the future? For the vastness of spatial nothingness would seem to me to be capable of supporting unknowable amounts of Big Bangs. Go Figure!
Oh, shut up.
Lionly, you have a lot of ardent followers itching to respond.
Keep the lettuce love going.
@360
Beautiful!
I tend to agree with Jeff here, but maybe you others know something about lionlylamb that I don't.
@ jazzguitarman
LL is the king of word salads.
@jazzguitarman
Secular; I do use the 'reply' button but I can only reply to the inital post in a 'chain'. (e.g. Robert in this chain), and NOT to those below the initial post. So unless I'm the first reply, I put the name of the person I'm replying too.
Does your 'reply' button show up next to each post?
See, If I reply here, it makes no sense.