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Conservatives brace for `marriage revolution'
Conservative Christians say their churches have been unprepared for cultural shifts on same-sex marriage.
June 28th, 2013
06:19 PM ET

Conservatives brace for `marriage revolution'

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

(CNN) - With its ivy-covered entrance and Teddy Bear bouquets, Arlene’s Flowers seems an unlikely spot to trigger a culture-war skirmish.

Until recently, the Richland, Washington, shop was better known for its artistic arrangements than its stance on same-sex marriage.

But in March, Barronelle Stutzman, the shop’s 68-year-old proprietress, refused to provide wedding flowers for a longtime customer who was marrying his partner. Washington state legalized same-sex marriage in December.

An ardent evangelical, Stutzman said she agonized over the decision but couldn’t support a wedding that her faith forbids.

“I was not discriminating at all,” she said. “I never told him he couldn’t get married. I gave him recommendations for other flower shops.”

Washington state Attorney General Bob Ferguson disagreed, and filed a consumer protection lawsuit against Arlene’s Flowers. The ACLU also sued on behalf of the customer, Robert Ingersoll, who has said Stutzman’s refusal “really hurt, because it was someone I knew.”

Among conservative Christians, Stutzman has become a byword - part cautionary tale and part cause celebre.

Websites call her a freedom fighter. Tributes fill Arlene’s Facebook page. Donations to her legal defense fund pour in from as far away as Texas and Arkansas.

“For some reason, her case has made a lot of people of faith worry,” said Stutzman’s lawyer, Dale Schowengerdt of the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative legal group.

Those anxieties have only increased, conservative Christians say, since the Supreme Court struck down part of the Defense of Marriage Act and opened the door to gay marriage in California.

Taking a line from Justice Antonin Scalia's sharp dissent, Southern Baptist scholar Albert Mohler said it’s only a matter of time "before the other shoe drops" – and the high court legalizes same-sex marriage from coast to coast.

“Christians will have to think hard — and fast — about these issues and our proper response,” Mohler wrote on Wednesday.

“We will have to learn an entire new set of missional skills as we seek to remain faithful to Christ in this fast-changing culture.”

His fellow Southern Baptist Russell Moore put the matter more succinctly.

“Same-sex marriage is coming to your community.”

`The debate is over'

Well before the Supreme Court’s rulings, many conservative Christians said they saw the writing - or the poll numbers - on the wall.

Survey after survey shows increasing support for same-sex marriage, especially among young Americans. That includes many religious believers.

Most Catholics and mainline Protestants, not to mention many Jews, support same-sex relationships, according to surveys. The bells of Washington National Cathedral pealed in celebration on Thursday.

Even among those who oppose gay marriage, many think it’s a losing battle.

Seventy percent of white evangelicals believe that legal recognition for gay nuptials is inevitable, according to a June poll by the Pew Research Center, though just 22 percent favor it.

“The gay marriage debate is over,” said Jonathan Merritt, an evangelical writer on faith and culture. “Statistically, all the numbers move in one direction.”

Young Christians have grown up in a far more diverse culture than their forebears, Merritt noted, and many have befriended gays and lesbians.

Pew found that more than 90 percent of Americans overall personally know someone who is gay or lesbian, a 30 percent increase since 1993.

“It’s far easier to wage war against an agenda than it is to battle a friend,” Merritt said.

At the same time, many conservative young Christians say they’re weary of the culture wars, and of seeing their communities labeled “judgmental.”

When Christian researchers at the Barna Group asked Americans aged 16-29 what words best describe Christianity, the top response was “anti-homosexual.” That was true of more than 90 percent of non-Christians and 80 percent of churchgoers, according to Barna.

Tired of being told the country is slouching toward Gomorrah, many young Christians have simply tuned out the angry prophets of earlier generations, evangelical leaders say.

“The shrill angry voices of retrenchment are no longer getting a broad hearing either in the culture at large or in the evangelical community,” Merritt said.

But the battle over same-sex marriage is far from over, said Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage.

“I don’t believe most Christians are going to give up the fight,” said Brown, who is Catholic. He said his movement includes many young evangelical and Orthodox Christians.

“And they are more energized than ever.”

Love thy gay neighbors

Energized or not, conservative Christians must prepare for the moral dilemmas posed by the country’s growing acceptance of same-sex marriage, said Moore, the new president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.

“Is Your Church Ready for the Marriage Revolution?” Moore asked, while promoting a special session on homosexuality at the Southern Baptist Convention’s annual meeting in Houston in June.

Many evangelical pastors have seen homosexuality as a distant culture-war battle that’s fought far from the doors of the churches, Moore said.

Now, it’s as close as their front pews.

“I think it’s not so much that churches haven’t wanted to talk about it,” he said, “but they haven’t recognized how much the culture has changed around them.”

The first step, said Moore, is learning to defend traditional marriage without demonizing gays and lesbians.

Walking through Washington’s Union Station last Thursday, Moore said he saw several lesbian couples kissing in celebration of the Supreme Court rulings.

“If we can’t empathize with what’s going on in their hearts and minds, we’re not going to be able to love and respect them.”

Then come a host of secondary questions: How should conservative pastors minister to same-sex couples? Should Christians attend same-sex weddings? Should florists like Barronelle Stutzman's agree to work with gay couples?

`Don't give in' 

Florist Barronelle Stutzman.

In the 17 years she’s owned Arlene’s Flowers, Stutzman said, she’s worked with a number of gay colleagues.

“It really didn’t matter if they were gay, or blue or green, if they were creative and could do the job,” she said.

Stutzman suspects that some of her eight children privately don’t agree with her on homosexuality, even as they publicly support her decision.

Online, Stutzman has been called a bigot, and worse.

She said she’s lost at least two weddings because of her refusal to provide services for the same-sex marriage.

Conservative activists say her case is the first of what will surely be many more, as gay marriage spreads across the country.

As she gets ready to face a judge, the silver-haired florist offered some advice for fellow evangelicals.

“Don’t give in. If you have to go down for Christ, what better person to go down for?”

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Baptist • Belief • Christianity • Church • Culture wars • Discrimination • Faith • Gay marriage • Gay rights • Homosexuality • Politics • Religious liberty • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (5,210 Responses)
  1. PRISM 1234

    When all the noises of the rowdy mob subside and even th Media Hounds have exauseted their energies, still He, God, our Maker is the Lord. It doesn't matter who yelled the loudest, and who retreated, being silenced. God is God, and we're no more than we were in the days of our humble beginnings.
    Our colective human advancements have not gotten us in much better position, other than filling us with decietful pride that has blinded our eyes and numbed our hearts....Truly, this generation of people has fallen very low, and is licking the dust!

    June 30, 2013 at 11:27 pm |
    • Observer

      PRISM 1234,

      "Our colective human advancements have not gotten us in much better position"

      Please restate that in English because the words you used make no sense at all. Are you living in a cave?

      June 30, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • Filthy Hind I love to Mithrism lick and talk Islam bunk

      Yeah you're exactly right.
      That "salvation" crap really hasn't advanced us one bit.
      Humans are exactly like they have always been.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      It seems that if there is a God, it has left us on our own and doesn't care if anyone calls it Lord or anything at all. Also, I don't know which is more sad: that you can't see that progress is being made, or that you can't imagine it.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:39 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Tom, Tom the Other One,

      Like I said many times ago, "The kingdom domains of all the gods of God lays within the very essences of our bodies. They are so very small and we are so very huge!" We are in essences godly built buildings where inside all of godliness finds safe harborages. Go Figure!

      June 30, 2013 at 11:52 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I think what Prissy is trying to say is "You damned kids! Get off my lawn!"

      July 1, 2013 at 2:19 am |
    • sam stone

      Prissy yet again shows the insanity that religion encourages.

      July 1, 2013 at 7:14 am |
    • sam stone

      "Our colective human advancements have not gotten us in much better position"

      Really, Prissy? We are living longer and healthier lives than before

      We have creature comforts that other generations did not dream of

      Tell us how much better it was in the time of jeebus

      "Truly, this generation of people has fallen very low, and is licking the dust!"

      Compared to when, Prissy? When we could own other people? When lynching was met with a wink and a tsk tsk by thge good old boys? When women or minorities could not vote? When a man could legally r-a-p-e his wife?

      When was this utopia you envision?

      July 1, 2013 at 7:49 am |
    • Saraswati

      Murder an other violent crimes at a sixty year low. Life expectancy pushing 80 when it was only 50 in 1900...and in the 30s just a few hundred years earlier. Almost no starvation. in the US when only a few generations ago we wouldn't have dreamed of complaining of too much food. Better working conditions than 100 years ago, fewer wars, less discrimination and segregation and slavery banned.

      July 1, 2013 at 7:54 am |
    • derp

      "Our colective human advancements have not gotten us in much better position"

      Says the idiot who is sitting in front of a computer posting messages on the internet.

      Maybe you'd be better served sending smoke signals.

      July 1, 2013 at 11:19 am |
  2. Bostontola

    I don't agree with the florist, but this is an act of civil disobedience. It is for what she believes in, it is highly visible, and she isn't running.

    June 30, 2013 at 10:53 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear

      And she "believes" in discrimination, based on a 2000 year old book. Hardly something to be praised.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Boston to LA,

      Her actions might be considered civil disobedience yet her religious rights will be infringed upon if any court should want to find her in fault of being uncivil.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear

      @ liony – her religious rights? She has the right to believe what she wants – that's her right. that isn't being infringed. It's when those beliefs are turned to action that they conflict with, and must be subservient to, other rights.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:13 pm |
    • Akira

      Selling to the public means selling to ALL of the public.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
    • Bostontola

      Like I said, I don't agree with her, and I didn't praise her. It is civil disobedience though. She is not running and is doing this peacefully. It doesn't make it immune from the law.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:32 pm |
    • Vic

      This is not a simple matter. The Law accommodates religious beliefs & practices; that could be one of them, I just don't know!

      June 30, 2013 at 11:39 pm |
    • Akira

      Man, Vic, that html is overpowering.

      She is discriminating. That's against the law. She will lose.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:47 pm |
    • tallulah13

      She can civilly disobey all she wants. Personally, I find no virtue in her support of bigotry. I hope she is prosecuted to the full extent of the law for willfully committing a crime.

      July 1, 2013 at 2:22 am |
    • Saraswati

      If it is an illegal act it is civil disobedience, but I wonder if she really realizes the full extent of her message. She isn't committing an act that simply protests gay marriage, but one that protests the whole concept of free commerce and opens the way to discrimination based on all sorts of beliefs, actions, memeberships etc. Like many here have demonstrated, she probably just thinks in termsof her little flower shop among many and doesn't really have an understanding of how in other contexts this sort of discrimination can be devastating and life altering.

      July 1, 2013 at 6:48 am |
    • derp

      "Her actions might be considered civil disobedience yet her religious rights will be infringed upon if any court should want to find her in fault of being uncivil."

      So if my religious beliefs tell me that black people are inferior, and beneath me, and that I should not have to do business with them, I am well within my religious rights to openly discriminate against them?

      And that would be civil disobedience?

      Or would that be bigotry?

      July 1, 2013 at 11:23 am |
  3. Austin

    John 15:26-27
    would you let Him give you faith?

    New International Version (NIV)
    The Work of the Holy Spirit

    26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

    June 30, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
    • Austin

      The Holy Spirit is a sanctifying sprit that testifies to the truth of the resurrection, that He is God. The Son, was God our Savior.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:46 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear

      Blah blah blah blah. Bal blah. Blah blah blah. Blah. Blah.

      Austin, I take it you don't comprehend that the rest of the world sees your posting of scripture as meaningless, man-made drivel.

      The bible isn't the word of god. It's simply a collection of stuff written by men thousands of years ago. There's probably some wisdom in there; so what? Lots of human writings contain wisdom. But holy? from "god"? Sorry – you're deluded.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:10 pm |
    • tallulah13

      It's all supernatural mumbo-jumbo, Austin. No matter what your dreams tell you, there is no real evidence of any god or satan, or any heaven or hell. There certainly isn't evidence of life after death. All the quotes in the world won't change the reality that when you die, there is no reason to believe you will be anything other than dead. No eternity. No afterlife. No prize.

      July 1, 2013 at 2:25 am |
  4. lionlylamb

    The main problem I find being unlawful is the easiest way to divorce one's spouse with little money being coughed up except for there being children involved and then the pop is usually the one held responsible and pays up the wazoo! The whores of Babylon are now among us folks! Live long and die penniless!

    June 30, 2013 at 10:40 pm |
    • Akira

      Providing for children after a divorce is repugnant to you, lionly? Given that you said you don't have any, why would you even comment?

      June 30, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Akira,

      Reading in between my thoughts are we? How repugnant!

      June 30, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Akira,

      Btw, I had a stepdaughter in my Life for a few years.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:02 pm |
    • Akira

      Repugnant is calling mothers "whores of babylon" because they ask for child support.
      All you did there was confirm that you are indeed a misogynist.
      And unless you adopted that child, which you clearly didn't, you are not responsible for child support.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear

      @ liony – you had a stepdaughter in your life for a few years? Poor girl.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Akira,

      Again you misconstrue my Word! The majorities of womanhood that do not make all attempts to keep their holy matrimony from biting the bullet and instead seeks divorce and alimony and child support are of whoredom's vileness. Today's rights of womanhood far outpace the rights of fatherhood. Go Figure!

      June 30, 2013 at 11:23 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      BTW,

      I know there are many fathers who deserve to be taken to the proverbial cleaners for their inhumane treatments of their spouse.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:26 pm |
    • Akira

      "....except for there being children involved and then the pop is usually the one held responsible and pays up the wazoo! The whores of Babylon are now among us folks!"

      I misconstrued nothing. You plainly equivocated mothers receiving child support as being whores of Babylon.
      Your intent was clear.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:36 pm |
    • Akira

      "The majorities of womanhood that do not make all attempts to keep their holy matrimony from biting the bullet and instead seeks divorce and alimony and child support are of whoredom’s vileness..."

      And you just did it again.
      You just accused divorced women of all being whores.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      No, he accused the majority of it

      July 1, 2013 at 10:59 am |
  5. lol??

    Yeah and it could just be a gubmint alphabet agency using this site as entrapment or whatever. If they're lookin' fer nutcases this is the place.

    June 30, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
  6. Akira

    So let me see if I get the gist of this story: she had no problem taking his money before, knowing full well that he was gay, but when he wanted to marry, she decided that she could no longer tolerate the fact that he was gay? Have I got that right? Because being gay is ok, but being gay married isn't?

    June 30, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
    • lol??

      People oughta just let God handle his business and keep their servants out of it.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:21 pm |
    • Akira

      God has never married one single couple, lol??. Sorry.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:25 pm |
    • Vic

      He is a long time customer of her flower shop who decided to get married when Washington State legalized same-s e x marriage last December. She could not approve of serving a gay marriage event but without intent of discrimination against gay or gay marriage. That's why she referred him to other flower shops. Also, some of her employees that she worked with are gay.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
    • Akira

      Yep, I had it right in the first place.
      She is in the retail business. She doesn't get to choose what her flowers are being used for. She will lose this lawsuit, because she is not treating all of her customers equally.
      Period.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
    • Just the Facts Ma'am...

      He is a long time customer of her flower shop who decided to get married when Washington State legalized interracial marriage in 1967. She could not approve of serving an interracial marriage event but without intent of discrimination against blacks and whites in marriage. That's why she referred him to other flower shops. Also, some of her employees that she worked with are black...

      July 1, 2013 at 2:45 am |
    • Akira

      "And some of her best friends are black..."

      July 1, 2013 at 9:46 am |
  7. Saraswati

    I don't think anyone knows how many reports it takes to put a post in moderation, and they are probably wise not to advertise the number. But there are, I believe, techniques that someone disturbingly committed could use to do hundreds of flags even from different ip addresses. And I doubt it takes that many.

    June 30, 2013 at 10:16 pm |
  8. Bootyfunk

    true, liberal victories are the only time things change, aside from the conservative victories that send us a couple steps back here and there.

    June 30, 2013 at 10:06 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      oops, meant to reply below.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:06 pm |
  9. Akira

    How can posters delete the posts, though? You can only report abuse once, right?
    Oh, what a mess.
    (And I can't report abuse at all; my mobile version doesn't have that feature...)

    June 30, 2013 at 10:02 pm |
  10. Vic

    @Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

    Thank you for this wonderful Belief Blog.

    I would like to see articles about Science and God as the main theme.

    Thank you.

    June 30, 2013 at 10:00 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Me too.
      How 85 % or more of the National Academy of Science is atheistic,
      and what actual tests science has for the gods.
      Oh that would be none.
      Never mind on the second one.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:14 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I doubt you'd like those articles as much as you think you would, Vic.

      July 1, 2013 at 2:30 am |
    • Bob

      Even some basic reading on certain topics in science might be of help to Vic.

      Vic, you could start here. Pretty respected source:
      http://www.nas.edu/

      July 1, 2013 at 10:50 am |
  11. Bootyfunk

    conservatives are always on the wrong side of history:

    against ending slavery
    against women voting rights
    pro segregation
    against minority voting rights
    against whites and minorities marrying
    against civil rights
    against same s.ex marriage

    liberals always have to lead the way when it comes to civil rights.

    June 30, 2013 at 9:59 pm |
    • Saraswati

      I think its almost by definition that conservatives (in the broader sense of that term) are on the losing side. When conservatives win, nothing changes so it's not generally really history of any interest.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:05 pm |
    • lol??

      Libs aren't above stealin' words and givin' em new meaning. it's more fun makin" em up, but copykitty blood runs deep in the genes.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
    • Akira

      Still chafing because gay marriages can't be discriminated against by the federal government anymore, lol??

      June 30, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
    • Akira

      And, lol??, you make up plenty of words yourself.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:27 pm |
    • ProfMom

      Actually, conservatives are often right on the issues, if swimming against the tide. Conservatives told everyone 40 years ago what medical science now affirms about abortion – that it kills a living, sensate human child in the womb – not a "blob of tissue" or a "clump of cells." Conservatives also accurately predicted what would happen with easy divorce and acceptance of promiscuity – the devastation to families and acute suffering of children. Conservatives are right about the oppressive control of oversized government, and what excessive spending, bureaucracy and curtailment of freedoms do to a society. You can be right and still lose the argument.

      The problem with conservative positions is not that they are "on the wrong side of history," but that they are on the wrong side of a culture that prefers self-gratification and treats sacrifice and self-denial as dirty words. Conservative positions on a whole host of social issues – graduate from high school, don't do drugs or abuse alcohol, save sex for marriage, stay married, don't abort your children, don't spend money you don't have – aren't popular. But so what? Being a grownup is rarely popular.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:27 pm |
    • lol??

      You misunderstood. I said it's more fun to make em up. When the libs do it they ferget vowels a lot., and that leads to stealing for lack of planning.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
    • lol??

      That's it akira. By not using vowels they are copycatting God!!

      June 30, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
    • Akira

      What are you, about 125 years old? Come into the 21st century; the water's just fine.
      And get over your misogyny. We're here to stay.

      And you are quite mistaken about the acronyms. Both sides are equally guilty.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:47 pm |
    • lol??

      Give you women a vowel, akira, and you'll take the whole alphabet!!

      June 30, 2013 at 11:01 pm |
    • Akira

      In English, please; I don't have my lol?? decoder ring handy.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:09 pm |
    • Saraswati

      ProfMom,

      "graduate from high school, don't do drugs or abuse alcohol, save se.x for marriage, stay married, don't abort your children, don't spend money you don't have"

      That's a wild misrepresentation of artificial contrasts between "conservative" and progressive, liberal or leftist views. Let's look at these one at a time, as.suming from your descriptions "conservative" to mean something close to Christian right (define it more precisely if you'd like).

      1. "Graduate from high school". Are you actually under the impression that liberals or progressives or people on the left DON'T think people should graduate from high school? Really? All major belief groups target this, there are just differences of opinion on how to achieve this end.

      July 1, 2013 at 10:11 am |
    • Saraswati

      2. "Don't do drugs or abuse alcohol". The first issue here is that it is usually conservatives who make this false distinction between alcohol and other drugs as you did. Most progressives and liberals realize alcohol is a drug. More notably, they realize tobacco is a drug while the right wing has been fighting for years to protect the tobacco companies in hiding the dangerous and addictive nature of that drug.

      3. "Save se.x for marriage". Yes, here the groups differ, but not in the way conservatives like to believe. Most progressives believe in delaying marriage to get an education first and avoid the errors of choosing unwisely and marrying too young. Since relationships are an important part of human well being and good evidence shows that a healthy se.x life builds stronger relationships, we aren't opposed to having a small or moderate number of healthy relationships before marriage.

      July 1, 2013 at 10:12 am |
    • Saraswati

      4. "Stay married". When I lived in North Carolina the "conservatives" were fighting to keep it legal to ra pe your wife. Yes, really. All sorts of things can make a marriage bad, and the as.sumption that everyone who leaves a marriage is in the wrong is just willfully ignorant. It would be wonderful if all marriages were perfect, but they aren't. Delaying marriage is a huge help in choosing wisely. See #3.

      July 1, 2013 at 10:15 am |
    • Saraswati

      5. "Don't abort your child". This one is worded so as to only make sense to a fundamentalist Christian. Unless you are driven by religion, you have no reason to consider an rudimentary embryo a "child" in the sense of person, as most Christian right do. If you accept that 8 undifferentiated cells are not a "person" the rest of the debate is just a matter of where to draw the line.

      6. "Don't spend money you don't have". Once again, you are making a distinction where one does not exist. First, to be technically accurate, unless you are Muslim and oppose loans you probably do believe in spending some "borrowed" money by, for instance, gathering investments to build a company. If you have a basic economic education you understand how this works and why it is important to our economy. But I think you're referring perhaps at the personal level to money that one doesn't have the probability of ether returning or using to good economic advantage. Or perhaps at the government level as a general (non wartime perhaps) policy on spending. And here virtually NO ONE disagrees – find me the person who actually says they want to spend money that cannot be recouped by society in the process. Rather there are disagreements on details of how money is to be collected, spent and how it will pay back in investment. And interestingly, it is usually right wing economists who present arguments for the economic advantages of debt and the possibility of paying back foreign debt with devalued dollars.

      Your smug oversimplification may make you feel better about you tiny little world, but it is a fantasy world of your own creation.

      July 1, 2013 at 10:16 am |
  12. lol??

    saraswateam had it right in her first answer. I've had both. Dan must have thought I got too persomnal on one. The other was just A&A's bein' A&A's. If it's one thing that socies think is valuable, it's their opinion.

    June 30, 2013 at 9:59 pm |
  13. lionlylamb

    Saraswati,

    Then you are saying that my posts becoming 'moderated' are due to one or more other posters reporting an abuse? Does the 'moderator' have to read the reported abuse before it is shown then? I am confused by such issues! 😦

    June 30, 2013 at 9:49 pm |
  14. Akira

    This happened before; anyone remember the "Christians, Be Nice" blog?
    Consistency would be nice, though.

    June 30, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
  15. Saraswati

    I think when the moderator deletes a post it just disappears. If it says "awaiting moderation" then other commentors probably flagged it.

    June 30, 2013 at 9:40 pm |
  16. Vic

    Christianity is about Faith/Belief in God Almighty, the Father, Son (Lord Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit, and Salvation

    Salvation at a Glance

    Know that God Almighty, the Father, Son (Lord Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit, is infinite in every way. His Grace is infinite.

    Blasphemy/Disbelief is the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin! Just BELIEVE!!!

    Matthew 12:31,32
    "31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

    John 3:16,17
    "16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

    John 12:47
    "47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."

    Romans 5:6
    "6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

    Ephesians 2:8,9
    "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

    All Scripture Is From:

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

    http://www.biblegateway.com/

    June 30, 2013 at 9:21 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear

      So Blasphemy/Disbelief is the only unforgivable sin? How retarded is that? What kind of self-indulgent, insecure deity is your god? Torture ,r-ape, and murder whoever you want – however many times, because that's not a s bad as not believing in your god?

      What about people who have never been exposed to Christianity?
      What about people who are developmentally delayed?
      What about young people?

      Seriously, give your head a shake.

      June 30, 2013 at 9:52 pm |
    • Bostontola

      "His Grace is infinite.

      Blasphemy/Disbelief is the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin! Just BELIEVE!!!"

      Infinite grace and unforgivable, seems wrong...

      June 30, 2013 at 10:14 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Vic's god is SO stupid that she wouldn't know the difference if you just *say* you believe, when you really don't.
      So just say it, and lie. That's what Vic thinks his god likes. Lying.

      Actually Vic never read the Bible.
      "No one shall come to me, unless the Father draw him", and "For many are called, but few are chosen".
      Vic knows better than his savior how all this works.
      Listen to Vic. He is really the savior. Or at least he thinks so.
      He forgot that St. Paul said that faith was a gift of his Spirit, not given to everyone.
      But listen to Vic.
      He knows better than St. Paul.

      June 30, 2013 at 10:19 pm |
  17. Douglas

    Out, Proud and Celibate!

    LGBTQ Christians buck the trend and reject fornication!

    Blazing a trail to salvation...one soul at a time!

    June 30, 2013 at 9:11 pm |
    • tallulah13

      I've figured out why you're celibate. It's not a choice. You are just so boring, no one wants to have anything to do with you. Jesus is your beard.

      June 30, 2013 at 9:43 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      It's OK to be out... God can use it to strengthen others through your testimony. It is pleasing to God that you keep yourself pure by being celibate. But flee from pride, dear friend. It has no place in the heart of a child of God. it's a trap of the enemy of our souls. Pray to have discernment to understand and the strength to overcome....The enemy is very subtle and his ways overwhelming.....We're no match unless we are humble in heart and filled with God's Spirit.

      Peace and God's grace to you

      June 30, 2013 at 11:02 pm |
    • Filthy Hind I love to Mithrism lick and talk Islam bunk

      Thanks for reminding us what "self-righteous" means Prism.

      June 30, 2013 at 11:41 pm |
    • PRISM 1234

      Nope, there is none righteous, no not one. And "Self can not make us that way. Only Christ can.

      BTW, do you know that you're making a spectacle of yourself ? Can you guess in what way?Think about it!

      July 1, 2013 at 12:02 am |
    • Observer

      PRISM 1234

      "But flee from pride"

      Do you take PRIDE in being a Christian?

      Skip the hypocritical nonsense.

      July 1, 2013 at 12:10 am |
    • Saraswati

      As a general rule, you can assume that anyone using the word "fornication" is just trying to wind you up.

      July 1, 2013 at 7:58 am |
  18. You can expect to reap LAWLESSNESS when the "church" teaches we are no longer under the law.

    You can expect to reap LAWLESSNESS when the "church" teaches we are no longer under the law.
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    YHWH gave us His towrah(instructions, law) for our good(Deut 10:12,13). He also gave us His Feast Days to observe and it wasn't the pagan X-mas and Ishtar. The "church" ignores the Sabbath commandment(ironically the one that starts out with the word "Remember"). Makes this verse in Ezekiel concerning His return make sense:
    Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed [difference] between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
    So what was soooo bad about that that it got moderated?

    June 30, 2013 at 9:07 pm |
    • Attack of the 50 Foot Magic Underwear

      YES! The LAW! The Biblical Law MUST be followed. So, no mixed fabrics. That's one law. Umm, there are lots of other nutty, whacky, Bronze Age Biblical laws: Stoning unruly children to death, stuff like that. Great book that bible! Great source fof guidance!

      June 30, 2013 at 9:19 pm |
  19. Bostontola

    On this blog, I've been informed that I am going to burn eternally by Christians. What I can't figure out is if I'm going to hell, Tartarus, vitti, helvede, halja, netherworld, anaon, uffern, peklo, tuonela, manala, gimokodan, kalichi, naraka, Hetgwauge, kuzimu, O le nu'u-o-nonoa, Mictlan, Adlivun, Shobari Waka, Xibalba, Metnal, Jahannam, Avīci, other, all of the above?

    June 30, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      It is likely probable that the sons and daughters of God, the original; overpowered God and sent him to stay in hell forever. (Just a thought)

      June 30, 2013 at 9:10 pm |
    • Doobs

      Maybe it's like buying a timeshare. If that's true, I definitely want to be in the one with all the gay men, so I can find out who their decorators are.

      June 30, 2013 at 9:18 pm |
    • lol??

      What does your boarding pass say??

      Who could say what travel is in your future. That being said, there are travel plans for Hell.

      "Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

      June 30, 2013 at 9:41 pm |
  20. lionlylamb

    Scotty,

    The real Tom

    What a farce!

    June 30, 2013 at 8:21 pm |
    • Akira

      What does this even mean?

      June 30, 2013 at 8:37 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Akira,

      Many of my posts along with Apple Bush's posts were either 'under moderation' or flat out deleted either by someone named Daniel or as A.B/ touted by Scotty witth Scotty's ace being The real Tom. Go Figure!

      June 30, 2013 at 8:42 pm |
    • Akira

      Daniel Burke said that would happen. I do not understand the Scotty reference; that is a HeavenSent accusation that has been debunked by The Real Tom many times.

      It as also happened before to most of the posters here; I think blaming Tom for it is specious, especially when she isn't here.

      June 30, 2013 at 8:47 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Akira,

      I was reciting Apple Bush in saying that Scotty and TrT were moderating. Who btw is Daniel Burke?

      June 30, 2013 at 9:00 pm |
    • Akira

      Daniel Burke is the co editor of the BB and authored this article.

      AB was in error. Scotty is fictitious, and TRT is most certainly not a moderator.

      June 30, 2013 at 9:20 pm |
    • Doobs

      @ lionly

      Daniel Burke is the author of this piece. He, or someone who says he is, has been commenting on the comment section and threatening to delete posts that he thinks are trolling or name calling, etc. I haven't read all 28 pages, but the ones I did read really didn't seem any worse than other threads. I could be wrong.

      I've come back a day after posting and found myself reported for abuse and deleted, as well as the occasional name thief. I don't worry about that stuff because I'm pretty sure the people who count can tell when it's not my writing.

      June 30, 2013 at 9:27 pm |
    • tallulah13

      Maybe the "Scotty" LL referenced is the Chief Engineer of the Enterprise. Maybe LL just wants to be beamed up.

      June 30, 2013 at 9:45 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.