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Pope Francis tells youth that faith cures discontent
Pope Francis speaks to the crowd from a balcony of the San Joaquin Episcopal Palace on July 26, 2013 in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
July 25th, 2013
07:50 PM ET

Pope Francis tells youth that faith cures discontent

By Helena Cavendish de Moura, for CNN

RIO DE JANEIRO (CNN) - With a blasting medley of bossa nova music as a prelude, Pope Francis addressed about a million worshippers in Copacabana beach on Thursday, lacing his message to a new generation of Catholics with Brazilian street jargon.

"Bota Fe" - put on faith - was the antidote to what he called growing materialism and discontent, the pontiff said.

"What can we do? Bota Fe," he said. "If we want to have real meaning and fulfillment, as you want and you deserve ... put on faith."

The thread of the pontiff's speech resonated with Brazil's youth, many of whom are expressing disenchantment with their government.

Police are on high alert amid the potential for protests throughout the city. On Monday, protests turned violent in the neighborhood of Laranjeiras as students and other young demonstrators hurled insults at a police battalion.

Earlier Thursday, Francis walked the muddy streets of the Varginha slum where crowds rushed through the area's labyrinthine alleyways and streets to see him. The pontiff visited a resident in the neighborhood also known for its violent history of drug-related criminal activity.

'Slum pope' visits Brazil's poor

Francis also met with Rio de Janeiro Mayor Eduardo Paes, who handed the pontiff a key to the city. According to O Globo newspaper, the pope told the mayor he would make an appeal to Santa Clara for better weather.

"We have to offer 12 eggs to Santa Clara," the pontiff told Paes.

"Santa Clara will only start to work tomorrow," Paes said in jest.

Santa Clara, or Saint Claire, called the "princess of the poor" founded the Order of San Damiano. Her names means "clear" in Spanish so eggs, or egg whites, are sometimes used to remember her and to pray for good weather.

According to Brazil's Climatempo weather agency, unusually cold temperatures and rain will persist over the next 48 hours.

The rainy forecast forced officials to move the event's closing celebration from Guaratiba, on the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro, to Copacabana.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Brazil • Catholic Church • Mass • Pope Francis

soundoff (639 Responses)
  1. Ken Margo

    More mumbo jumbo this time from the top guy. If faith cures discontent, there wouldn't be ANY discontented people. You don't think those poor people aren't praying already. Let's think people, if praying worked, there wouldn't be ANY problems anywhere.

    According to the weatherman, the pope has no power over the weather because it's going to be cold and rainy over the next 48 hours. So much for being gods right hand man. When the pope leaves, that area will be just as run down as it was before he got there.

    July 26, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • jazzguitarman

      Does the Pope really believe that some so called saint can impact the weather? I would hope he isn’t that ignorant. So assuming the pope isn’t that ignorant what he is doing is lying to the people and giving them false hope.

      The entire message of ‘god’s will’ gives people false hope. E.g. Don’t use a condom, just pray that you won’t get someone pregnant (or he won’t get you pregnant).

      July 26, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
      • Ken Margo

        If the pope doesn't believe, who will?

        July 26, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
    • austin

      ;Ken , you have to take into consideration something so simple as a metabolism fluctuation. if you get really hungry and tired you become crabby. You start sinning. it happens in the morning. this is why you should tend to your relationship with God and let the power of His word and praise fill your soul and listen to the Holy Spirit. The word gives the spirit a chance to speak to you. meditate on the word. pray for the battles where you feel a natural rejection for the word.

      July 26, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
      • austin

        I think that if you bring an atti.tude of constant discouragement to your Christian walk, or me, that I will not give the Holy Spirit a place where He resonates. I have much imrovement to do with the daily grind.

        We should rejoice in the face of death and pain at the glory of the resurrection. That is the faith David showed us. and He prayed for God's hand of judgment in his own sin.

        July 26, 2013 at 6:57 pm |
      • Ken Margo

        "metabolism fluctuation" Sounds like gas. I'm sure some of those poor souls pray everyday and what have they got to show for it. Zip. That's ok I'll pas's

        July 26, 2013 at 7:01 pm |
        • austin

          no ken, when i was in jail, that is when the Lord let me know , and i have evidence and proof, the Jehovah Shammah, Our Lord is There.

          July 26, 2013 at 7:19 pm |
        • jazzguitarman

          Ken, as you can see Austin was in jail. I think we need to admit that getting religion can help bad people like Austin become better people. i.e. tricking him into doing good to please a so called god is good for the rest of us.

          July 26, 2013 at 7:39 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          @Jazz........................Religion may keep him out of trouble. But that doesn't make it any more true.

          July 26, 2013 at 8:47 pm |
      • Ken Margo

        "I think that if you bring an atti.tude of constant discouragement to your Christian walk, or me, that I will not give the Holy Spirit a place where He resonates."

        Don't worry about how I feel. I'm sure someone in that poor village is praying and so far no answer.

        July 26, 2013 at 7:16 pm |
        • austin

          when Jobs family was dying, I doubt Job had a face to face audible talk with Job. But Job, with a spiritual gift to bear, remained in spirit, and prayer, and when God's will came with authority even in the suffering, Job knew that God's presence would never grow dim.

          July 26, 2013 at 7:21 pm |
        • austin

          Ken, thanks for all the conversation over the months you have given me the time. Have a good one.

          July 26, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
  2. AE

    “The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”
    – Werner Heisenberg

    July 26, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • ME II

      Was he certain of that?

      July 26, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
      • AE

        I'm sure that was his experience.

        “The reality we can put into words is never reality itself.”

        – WH

        July 26, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          As with all of this god nonsense, there is no evidence of a god.

          July 26, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
        • austin

          I have some evidence. Its real, and I can share it. and the same time it is mine, but I don't want to keep it. I'll share it with you.

          It is yours to have.

          July 26, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
        • austin

          If you really want it, tell the Lord to testify within you. Get demanding.

          July 26, 2013 at 6:41 pm |
    • AE

      As Blaise Pascal said: God has placed the correct balance of evidence of Himself in the world; enough to draw men freely to himself, but not enough to compel people to believe on Him who would not trust or love Him.

      July 26, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
      • Pope On A Rope Soap

        Sounds like your god is quite the jerk. Hey, google Pascal's Wager for some fine reading about that fellow's famous god mistake, you ignorant fool.

        July 26, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
        • lionlylamb

          Your usage of vinegar marmalade words would be worthy of treasuring if honey was used instead of contemptuous pomposities meant to only inflame and defame...

          July 26, 2013 at 6:33 pm |
        • austin

          rotten postulates, swollen and bursting forth , milky white infections of the mind.

          July 26, 2013 at 6:38 pm |
  3. lionlylamb

    Everyone dare believes in their reasoned abilities to surmise and suppose...

    July 26, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
    • flying spaghetti monster

      Many others relish their rapturous rigamaroles, foolishly faithful and lost in the trappings of illusion, lamely lying and calling themselves lionly.

      July 26, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
      • lionlylamb

        Such portrayals coming from a still yet immature child who wishes for nothing but idle gossiping...

        July 26, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
        • flying spaghetti monster

          Asinine assumptions from a fable-blinded fool, fouled fully in the folly of faithfulness, ill-tempered, condescending, never hearing, never bending.

          July 26, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
        • lionlylamb

          Like I said, your immaturity to make sly slandering connotations as being but instead of wholesomely accreditations leaves one to be a vile child seeking the attentions of their elders upon which to emblaze their own cesspools of sewage strewn bantering frivolities all so common an impotence that many children are nowadays philandering upon...

          July 26, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
        • flying spaghetti monster

          Meh, I give you a C- for effort on that last one. Try harder next time.

          July 26, 2013 at 5:04 pm |
        • Joe

          lionly take note of FSM's posts he does a much better job of using words and making sense than you ever have. It's almost like he actually knows what the words he is using mean, unlike you.

          July 26, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
        • lionlylamb

          Oh my how the children do flock together pampering each others' game to noxious fame...

          July 26, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
  4. Zombie God

    Wishful thinking cures!

    July 26, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
  5. Rocket surgeon

    I'm really impressed with myself.

    July 26, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
  6. bostontola

    While faith probably can affect discontent in some (it is a state of mind), it does so as a kind of soporific. Wouldn't it be better to encourage people to take action to improve their actual state like get a good education.

    July 26, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
    • LionlyLamb is a barely intelligible little troll

      Secondary and graduate education costs far too much these days.

      July 26, 2013 at 3:43 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      When the pope says "put on the faith", he doesn't mean "accept the unknowable" or something like that. He means embrace the articles of faith and the teachings they bring as a means to education and improvement.

      July 26, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
      • In Santa we trust

        The teachings they bring are counter to our scientific knowledge and teaching anti-science is counter-productive.

        July 26, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
      • Pope On A Rope Soap

        The high priests of the RCC have been doing far too much embracing, for folks who are supposed to set an example. Time to put away that criminal organization.

        July 26, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
  7. LionlyLamb is a barely intelligible little troll

    But will Faith cure this itch I have that won't go away?

    July 26, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
  8. Saraswati

    Arguing against religion in general reminds me a bit of the arguments against alcohol in the 1920s or 1980s or marijuana now. People focus on what's bad and the fact it can make you dumb and irrational. But all of these things have been with humans a long time and we've evolved and survided with them. Few things that make people feel good are pure evil. The trick is to rationally examine what provides benefit and what causes harm without getting carried away by emotion.

    July 26, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
    • bostontola

      Interesting analogy. Religion, alcohol, drugs, all things that can impair reason and can take control of some peoples behavior.

      July 26, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
      • Bill Deacon

        It's a not so sly form of guilt by association

        July 26, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
        • bostontola

          Really, you associate religion, alcohol, and drugs?

          July 26, 2013 at 2:48 pm |
        • Bill Deacon

          No, Sara did

          July 26, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
        • bostontola

          Not really Bill, an analogy was drawn not an association.

          July 26, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
        • Bill Deacon

          See if you like it this way:

          Arguing against abortion in general reminds me a bit of the arguments against slavery in the 1850's or genocide in the 1980's. People focus on what's bad. But all of these things have been with humans a long time and we've evolved and survided with them. Few things that make people feel good are pure evil. The trick is to rationally examine what provides benefit and what causes harm without getting carried away by emotion.

          July 26, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
        • Whoosh!

          Oh, you derive pleasure from abortion, slavery, and genocide, Bill? Because it is well known that people derive pleasure from religion, alcohol, and drugs.

          You missed Sara's point completely.

          July 26, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
        • ME II

          @Bill Deacon,
          Interesting turn-about, but wouldn't a 'rational examination, without emotion, show that slavery has little to no benefits that aren't achievable by other means? I'd think it would be a difficult job finding rational reasons for genocide. ;

          July 26, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
        • Saraswati

          @Bill, I have long argued that alcohol got a bad rap in this country, and on this board I have argued repeatedly that religion is not in itself a bad thing. If you have a problem with either marijuana or alcohol that is your issue, not mine.

          July 26, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
    • The Strawman Cometh

      "Arguing against religion in general reminds me a bit of the arguments against alcohol in the 1920s or 1980s or marijuana now."

      Try something else Saras.

      July 26, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
      • Mary

        You're calling her opinion a strawman? That's pretty arrogant.

        July 26, 2013 at 3:20 pm |
        • Joseph

          Doesn't mean it isn't true.

          July 26, 2013 at 8:05 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      I think her point is that like alcohol and drugs, religion acts as a kind of opiate on some people. I think she is saying that despite the obvious ills of drugs, alcohol and religion that this opiate effect is somewhat beneficial. i think, despite boston's denial, she makes a direct association between the three and I think it is disingenuous to claim otherwise.

      I also think the correlation and association of abortion to slavery and genocide is much more relevant, direct and accurate. While I don't derive pleasure from any of these practices, I'm not surprised that you would skew into that aspect of the statement by whatever gymnastics you employed and deliberately dodge Sara's clumsy and obvious ploy to tie religion to inebriates.

      July 26, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
      • ME II

        @Bill Deacon,
        "the correlation and association of abortion to slavery and genocide is much more relevant"

        What specifically is that correlation?

        July 26, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
        • Bill Deacon

          abortion on demand enslaves women to the idea that seexuality is a game or sport at which they can "reset" any consequences. For the relation to genocide listen for the voice of 60 million babies silenced over the last forty years.

          July 26, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
        • Saraswati

          Wow, Bill, you never cease to amaze me with your condescendingly low opinion of female rationality.

          July 26, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
        • lionlylamb

          Sara...

          Condescension's amorously perverted as being but gestures of atheistic bigotry tend to stand at odds against the civilities of well rounded moralistic séances... The maniacal attributes of demented perversions around Godly visionaries have vile tendencies of bitterly conclusive arachnids webbing their focal espionage-like antics toward forsaken jealousies of the most vile insinuations levied bias contorts... Many an atheist can only muster up the words that mentoring atheists seem to be bloviating... Stilled in their wisdom's bantered bickering many atheists yell out rather profuse negativities to plunder many unwary soulful orientated idealists who have yet to fathom their own life's most cherished ability which is to love all unconditionally and without hateful malignancies of the most horrid conditionings the common atheist avails towards Godly lovers their ill-willed verbal abuses be they spoken or written...

          July 26, 2013 at 7:05 pm |
  9. Dyslexic doG

    the bible says:
    God CAN be seen:
    "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
    "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
    "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

    God CANNOT be seen:
    "No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
    "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
    "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)

    July 26, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      this has to be my favorite "God" bible quote:

      "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)

      ROTFL

      July 26, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
      • Bippy the new lesser to medium level judging squirrel god

        My favorite quote is where the dumb god didn't know what to do about making a mate for Adam.
        Genesis 2:20 The man gave names to ALL the cattle", (which apparently he had already domesticated), "all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals" (which apparently all lived in the ancient Near East), "but none PROVED to be a suitable partner for the man". Hmm. Just how did he go about that ?

        July 26, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
        • Anita Nexcuse

          Oh, I think we know how far he went with that. That's how we know they weren't suitable...

          But seriously. Birds?

          July 26, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
      • Anita Nexcuse

        Is God presenting his ass???

        July 26, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
    • MamaDawg

      No contradiction dear.

      It would be easy to take these verses out of context without reading the verses that come before and after these verses.

      Jacob wrestled with an angel ( God ) to receive his blessing. God is a Spirit and visited Earth in the form of an angel. Jacob knew the angel was God. Amen !

      Thank you for studying the Word of God.

      July 26, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
  10. Dyslexic doG

    The use of supernaturalism to manipulate and control people is the world's oldest confidence scheme, it relies on the ritual abuse of children at their most impressionable stage by adults who have themselves been made childish for life by artifacts of the primitive mind.

    July 26, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
  11. Dyslexic doG

    Christians scream "free will", but yet pray for god's intervention. Why pray? Doesn't he already know what's going to happen? Is he going to change his mind? What utter foolishness!

    July 26, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
  12. A Frayed Knot

    The "Recent Comments" on this article has broken already on page 3?! ***sigh***

    Please get it together, CNN.

    July 26, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
  13. Easter Rabbit

    Must be nice to just ignore everything we have learned in the last thousand years, throw it out the window and just say, "have faith".
    As far as I can see religions only pass down ignorance to their children, it's a nice gift to give young minds, blind faith.
    BOW!!!!
    YIELD!!!!
    KNEEL!!!!
    AND GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, ERR UMM, I MEAN DONATIONS!!!

    July 26, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • austin

      hey I go to saturday night service where we rock out and praise God and our preacher is great. He preaches about salvation with a gift for the Word, insight and teaching. and at the end of service there have been countless times where people for the first time, people you have never seen, go down and ask for faith. People being baptised.

      I give my money to these people because I know the spirit of revelation. The Holy spirit has made His presence known in my life. And what is mine is God's I believe in God's holy judgments that bring a sanctified life, and I believe in His promises. what is money? I don't need anything but some vegetables and chickens, family and dog. We are there for the spiritual benefits of the truth. The first thing I would give to the church would be my T.V. I don't need that.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
      • Damocles

        So why then do you still have your tv? How dare you selfishly watch re-runs of Seinfeld when those less fortunate than you have to go without!

        July 26, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        "The profession of shaman has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the shaman is on the moral level of any other con man. But it is a lovely work if you can stomach it."

        – Robert Heinlein

        July 26, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
        • austin

          yes and all the while, you pay taxes, charge taxes, and wages, and you would suffer without money because of other people expecting your pay. yet He claimed to be here for His Fathers affairs, and He gives you all that He has for eternity. now you gripe about money?

          the sick feeling you feel is probably a warning sign to you that you are seriously demented.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
        • austin

          the sick feeling is the part of your soul that you do not even acknowledge that you suffocate and cage in.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
        • skytag

          Having Austin call you demented is like a badge of honor.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
        • Anita Nexcuse

          That sick feeling is nauseation that you would presume to know what demented even means, given your past and present history of it, Austin.

          How much does your rock and roll church pay in taxes?

          July 26, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
        • skytag

          @austin: "He gives you all that He has for eternity."

          If God loves you so much, why are you so dumb? You repeatedly use these kinds of arguments that suggest you just can't grasp that we don't believe this claim.

          "now you gripe about money?"

          No one is "griping about money." The problem is snake oil salesman being paid to promote and perpetuate a delusion.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Austin
          Mormons are told: "if a dest.itute family is faced with the decision of paying their ti.thing or eating, they should pay their t.ithing." (Lynn Robbins, General Conference, April 2005).

          I would guess that you find the above sentiment distateful – and yet Mormons don't see any problems in going for an annual ti/thing audit with their Bishop.

          Anybody who charges a fee for salvation is a charlattan.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
        • Saraswati

          To provide context, here is that Mormon ti.thing quote:

          https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/04/ti_thing-a-commandment-even-for-the-desti_ute?lang=eng

          Note that the church is supposed to be providing for the basic needs in such a case.

          (underscores added in url due to filter)

          July 26, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
        • skytag

          @Doc Vestibule: "Mormons are told: "if a dest.itute family is faced with the decision of paying their ti.thing or eating, they should pay their t.ithing." (Lynn Robbins, General Conference, April 2005).

          I would guess that you find the above sentiment distateful – and yet Mormons don't see any problems in going for an annual ti/thing audit with their Bishop."

          It is intellectually dishonest to not tell the whole story. The Mormon church has a well-developed welfare program to care for their needy members. They will supply them with food, pay their rent, pay for utilities, even medical care under the right circumstances. Your insinuation that the Mormon church tells its members to go hungry if necessary to pay their tithing is a repugnant lie. I thought you were better than that.

          Mormons do not have a tithing "audit." They have the option of sitting down with their Bishops, reviewing their donations and declaring whether or not they represent a "full tithing." It's the honor system and there is no audit.

          The Mormon church has a lay ministry, so none of members' donations go to pay anyone at the local level other than janitorial staff and such. Whatever you think about churches they do need money to operate, just like a home, a business, or a charity. They have to pay for buildings, utilities, hymnbooks, maintenance and upkeep, and various activities. If you're going to have a church I see nothing wrong with it expecting the people who benefit from it to pay for it. Since no one in the Mormon church lives high on the hog off member donations, and most of the leadership doesn't even receive a salary your attitude toward them regarding tithing seems decidedly irrational.

          "Anybody who charges a fee for salvation is a charlattan."

          I would agree, but again, you are being intellectually dishonest. That's certainly not what the Mormon church is doing. They encourage people to be obedient to the laws and commandments they believe God has given them, and one of those is the law of tithing. Although I think their narrative is no more true than any other church's, I respect the Mormons for expecting their members to live their beliefs, including sacrifices.

          One of the issues I have with Christianity is that Christianity isn't a religion, it's a religious smorgasbord, ideal for the church-shopping crowd, people who want all the benefits of the core narrative but want to be able to pick and choose how and to what extent they have to incorporate it into their daily lives. Some Christians are part of no denomination whatsoever. This ability to pick and choose is a major reason Christianity is so popular, this and the fact that it offers so much while asking so little.

          There are hundreds of Christian variants from which you are free to choose to ensure you get one tailored to your personality and lifestyle. There are denominations that condemn homosexuality and denominations that marry gays and admit them into their ministry. There are those that require significant sacrifice in the way you live your life, such as the Amish. There are those that are heavy on ritual, such as Catholics and Mormons. There are those that preach strict Sabbath day observance and those that are happy if you'll just show up for services on Sunday morning. There are some in which people handle snakes and speak in tongues. There are some that prohibit the consumption of alcohol and tobacco and others that don't.

          I have more respect for religions that have rules and expect their members to make sacrifices. The ones that don't just exist to make people feel good about themselves.

          July 26, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          "Ti.thing is an important test of our personal righteousness. President Joseph F. Smith (1838-1918) said: “By this principle it shall be known who is for the kingdom of God and who is against it. … By it it shall be known whether we are faithful or unfaithful” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 276)."

          Is it not true that those members who are not paying a full 10% can lose their temple recommendations and therefore are in serious jeopardy of losing their Celestial blessings?
          If a member cannot get into the temple, they cannot learn the secret handshake, secret password, secret "new name" and special “sealings”.
          Without these, the member will be unable to pass Joseph Smith and the angels who guard the entrance to the Celestial Kingdom.

          According to the Deseret News Agency, the propaganda arm of the LDS, the Church spent some $750 million internationally on charitable works between 1984 and 2006.
          They have also spent 4 times that amount (approx $3 BILLION) in ¼ of the time to build a mall in Salt Lake City.
          in 1984 the Quorum Of the Twelve were paid in the range of $80 thousand a year for living expenses, excluding benefits. This does not include any money received by business ventures or sitting on the board of directors for other companies. Adjusted for inflation, that equals $177,385 today.
          In addition to the modest salary, the Prophet and his Apostles are given living arrangments.
          Thomas S. Monson, for example, lived in a 24000+ square foot condo estimated at a value of $2.8 million
          The Latter Saints have a lot of very profitable businesses in their expanding corporate empire, such as Deseret Management Corporation, Beneficial Financial Group , Bonneville Communications , Bonneville Interactive Services
          , Bonneville Satellite, 35 Radio Stations, Deseret Book, La'ie Shopping Center, La'ie Park, La'ie Cemetary, Hukilau Beach Park, La'ie Water Company, La'ie Treatment Works, Zions Securities Corporation, Farm Management Corporation (commericial farms and agricultural properties), Deseret Land and Livestock, 200,000 acres of land in Rich, Morgan and Weber counties, Sun Ranch (Martin's Cove), Deseret Ranches of Florida (Orlando) (largest ranch in Florida), Deseret Farms of California, Rolling Hills (Idaho), West Hills Orchards (Elberta, Utah), Cactus Lane Ranch (Arizona), Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (CPB), Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Deseret Trust Company, LDS Family Services, Property Reserves Inc. (PRI), Ensign Peak Advisors, Brigham Young University, LDS Business College,... the list goes on and on.

          July 26, 2013 at 3:55 pm |
        • sam stone

          have another drink, austin

          July 26, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
      • skytag

        "hey I go to saturday night service where we rock out and praise God and our preacher is great"

        The picture gets clearer all the time.

        July 26, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
      • Bill Deacon

        “The priesthood is a marriage. People often start by falling in love, and they go on for years without realizing that love must change into some other love which is so unlike it that it can hardly be recognized as love at all.”

        Iris Murdoch quotes (British Novelist and Philosopher, 1919-1999)

        July 26, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
      • skytag

        Any paid minister has divided loyalties, because if he upsets his congregation he's out of a job. My ex-brother-in-law is a Presbyterian minister. He was hired by a church in Detroit whose membership had been shrinking for years because they thought he could bring more people in.

        He reached out to blacks in the community and sure enough, membership started to grow. Then they fired him because those weren't the kind of people they wanted him to bring in.

        July 26, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      “As it says in the Bible, God fights on the side with the heaviest artillery.” ― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

      July 26, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • skytag

      It's a bit of a tossup. On the one hand it's great to have a bunch of delusions that keep unpleasant realities at bay. On the other hand, it can be a lot of word to maintain a delusion in the face of reality that contradicts it every day.

      July 26, 2013 at 1:53 pm |
  14. Lucifer's Evil Twin

    '"Santa Clara will only start to work tomorrow," Paes said in jest.' or the day after that... or the day after that

    July 26, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
  15. rocketscientist

    Bippy the new lesser to medium level judging squirrel god

    "It is naive. Abortion, and the anti-gay marriage use RELIGION to justify forcing their views IN LAW on to the rest of society. Obviously you never really did study History."

    So, now you've stooped to insulting me again. Gee, I didn't see that coming. That says something about your character as a person.

    Nope, I'm not naive. I explained what I meant above. How can someone "force their views" on anyone in this country? It's not a dictatorship, it's a democracy. Again, you could just as well say that "atheists," "gays," "liberals" etc. "force their views" on this country as well. All I was saying is that any of these votes over gray moral or ethical issues necessarily require people to make decisions informed by their morals, their ethics, and, hopefully science as well. As an engineer with a hard physics background, a Catholic, and a Democrat, I don't see anything wrong with any of that. Neither does are own President, based on his own words. And, btw, I'm totally against legislation taking away a woman's right to choose, just like President Obama.

    July 26, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Bippy the new lesser to medium level judging squirrel god

      I see you are also not above insults. The remark about "character" was an insult BTW. You conveniently move back and forth from a personal position to a general position. The FACT is RELIGION IS used in America today to force the views of religion on others, (Prop 8 etc etc etc).. You are naive to deny that. What you personally is irrelevant. Religion is used by religion and religious leaders ALL the time, with their resources behind it. Nice try.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
      • rocketscientist

        "I see you are also not above insults."

        I didn't insult you.

        "The remark about "character" was an insult BTW."

        Where did I say anything about your character. I said you liked insulting me. You do. I wasn't the one to make this personal. You were.

        "You conveniently move back and forth from a personal position to a general position."

        I've pointed out that we live in a democracy and we're all, for all intents and purposes, trying to force our beliefs on others on economic, social, and other issues in a democratic manner, whether we're religious or atheist. I've also cited some of my own beliefs, which are moderate. I'm not trying to use the latter in my argument, just to show that one shouldn't stereotype people.

        " The FACT is RELIGION IS used in America today to force the views of religion on others, (Prop 8 etc etc etc)."

        You could just as well say the same about atheism or any other issue with followes. Read about what happened to Santa Monica's Christmas Story, for example.

        " You are naive to deny that."

        No, I just believe that most people have minds of their own and can make up their own minds.

        "What you personally is irrelevant."

        So why do you care about what I say here?

        "Religion is used by religion and religious leaders ALL the time, with their resources behind it. "

        "Religion is used by religion?"

        Religion uses itself?!

        Again, my point is, since we're a democracy, of course there are all sorts of organizations that are "trying to force their view" and the like on society. It's done through political parties, news organizations, religions, political groups, etc. And I wouldn't call it "forcing" anyone in any case. The United States is a nation of laws, determined by democratic processes. That's all I've been saying.

        "Nice try."

        Thanks!

        Dr. H

        July 26, 2013 at 9:07 pm |
    • Johnny

      The people forcing their beliefs on others are the one's who are against gay marriage, and are anti-abortion. Allowing gay marriage and abortion to occur doesn't force a belief on anyone as they are free to not enter into a gay marriage or get an abortion.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
      • SeattleBeliever

        Everyone "forces" their beliefs on others. its called having an opinion. So don't think you're above it, because you're not. How does allowing abortions force beliefs on others??? I dunno, if you think something is murder and your don't do anything about iit, or if the government requires you're money to help pay for something you consider murder, yeah, you're forcing you're beliefs on others. Sorry, everyone wants their beliefs to be forced on others. That's why you vote isn't it? Its like people saying "you shouldn't use abortion as a litmus test when voting" What the hell is that? Why shouldn't you if it's what you believe? Are you going to tell the person whose concerned about the environment not to use it as a litmus test when voting for a candidate? Everyone is hypocrite, a human condition I'm afraid. So......if you're going to tell me you're not forcing you're beliefs on me, and mine on you, I would have to call you liar......

        July 26, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
        • Anita Dollar

          Please cite the law that the goverment forces you to pay for someone's abortion. Taxes are not used for abortions; private donations are.
          Don't want an abortion? Don't get one. Problem solved.

          July 26, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
        • Damocles

          Wow, I'm sorry, I must have missed the story you told about how you were forced to get an abortion.

          July 26, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
        • Johnny

          Once again if you don't want an abortion then don't get one. Most likely the only thing that allowing abortions forces you to do is complain about things other people do that have no effect on your life whatsoever.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
        • Johnny

          I personally feel that abortion is wrong, but who am I to tell other people what they can do?

          July 26, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
        • Joe

          Pretty much everyone I know has opinions on lots of things, but none of them want me to live by their opinions. It is one thing to hold an opinion, and another thing entirely to believe that everyone should live their lives based on your opinion. You feel abortion is wrong, fine don't get one, but you have no right to decide that for someone else.

          July 26, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
        • Bippy the new lesser to medium level judging squirrel god

          No. You ask yourself, "why do I want this enshrined into law ?". If the ONLY reason you can come up with, is "cuz my religion says so", then it's inappropriate to force THAT on to others.
          BTW 'murder" is the illegal taking of life. Abortion is not illegal, (yet). You cannot call abortion "murder" unless it's illegal.

          July 26, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • Just the Facts Ma'am...

      "It's not a dictatorship, it's a democracy." I wish it were that simple, but we are not a democracy. We are a representative democracy with many States implementing gerrymandered disctricts so as to let a smaller group of people elect a representative in an area where the majority may not have elected them to represent them. If you do not understand the principle I suggest you look it up, but we are far from an actual democracy where laws are decided on my the majority.

      July 26, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
  16. Dyslexic doG

    why does a god demand my love, trust, faith, blind obedience?

    what does he need it for? is he a narcissist? is he insecure?

    July 26, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • Damocles

      Because it wuvs you bunches and bunches and is willing to kill you to prove it.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
      • flying spaghetti monster

        He's like the ultimate abusive parent: "I only hit you (send you to be tortured in hell for eternity) because I love you. Can't you see that? It hurts me more than it hurts you, you make me do it by sinning."

        July 26, 2013 at 12:52 pm |
        • Damocles

          It takes it a step further, not only does it beat the crap out of you, but it goes down the block to your friends house and beats the crap out of them for good measure. 'See how much I love you! WHAP! Wahhhh love me! What I did to your friends was justified'!

          July 26, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      God is indeed insecure.
      That's why His primary characteristic is jealousy.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Where did you learn God demands that of you?

      July 26, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        The 1st 3 of the 10 commandments.

        July 26, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
        • Anita Dollar

          .....and checkmate.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
        • Bill Deacon

          Try reading Emmet Fox's commentaries on the Ten Commandments. He does a good job describing how the Ten Commandments are not so much laws in the legislative sense but rather laws in the natural sense.

          The second fallacy you are operating under is the assumption that adherence to the law is for God's benefit when the truth is it is for our benefit.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
        • Anita Nexcuse

          Seems God should have been a little more clear when issuing those first 10. It seems that "no other gods before me" "no graven images" and "don't take my name in vain" is pretty self-explanatory.

          Who knew one had to go out and do massive research to divine the true meaning of "I am the only God that matters."
          Not to mention that it would appear that now the laws of the OT magically turn into "natural laws" for all rather than specific laws for the Israelites, as people like to use an excuse when explaining why the slave-beating and shell fish eating laws no longer apply. Or is that Time Dispensation? Who knows. Huh.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
        • Bill Deacon

          I'm always surprised that people who claim to have the highest average intellects with the ability comprehend complex scientific theories have trouble with the Bible because it isn't simple enough for them.

          July 26, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
        • ME II

          @Bill Deacon,
          It's not that it isn't simple, although it isn't. It's that it is extremely unclear, i.e. confusing, convoluted, contradictory, etc.. If it weren't so open to interpretation, interpolation, etc. then I don't think there wouldn't be 10,000+ denominations.

          July 26, 2013 at 2:49 pm |
        • Anita Nexcuse

          No, Bill. The commandments are simple. It's pusedo-intellects who have to resort to reading massive tomes to understand what God meant by "Thou shalt not have any gods before me." It's actually pretty self explanatory.

          Which goes back to what Doc Vestibule was saying.

          You're an apologist. We all understand that. When asked about something, the knee-jerk reaction of "that's not what God meant; read this and that to understand" kicks in. It's all right if you don't understand, Bill. Others do.

          July 26, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
        • Kerry

          You're always surprised when people take umbrage at the RCC failing to prosecute their pedophiles, also, aren't you? You surprise very easily, it seems.
          Apologist only goes so far, Bill, and then it enters the realm of denial.

          July 26, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
  17. Greg

    For my atheist friends: For the evidence of God's hand in creation, one of many would be the argument of contingency. Contingency, in a general sense, meaning that the answer for ones existence cannot be found in one's self and is, rather, contingent upon something else for existence. So, through this logic, an answer for a contingent being cannot be found in another contingency. This leads us to the fact that no matter how small (energy, negative energy, microorganism) something is that started this great universe that we live in, it had to start from some no contingent contingency. For Catholics, this would be the unmoved mover...God. I challenge you to truly understand the faith, understand what is being said. Christopher Hitchens, arguably one of the smartest men in modern times, failed to truly dive deep enough into what is present in the faith, and decided to form his own opinions that would fit his arguments. My arguments come from a very basic philosophical understanding of Catholicism. Read the works of Pope Benedict XVI, JPII, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, G.K. Chesterton, and many many more.

    For my Protestant friends: If the entirety of the bible is to be interpreted literally as the only source of religious truth provided to us by Christ, then I challenge you to literally translate the Word of God that is found in the Book of Revelation. Another example that I believe many Protestants miss is the Bread of Life Discourse found in the Gospel of John. In this case, Christ tells his followers to "eat his flesh" in order to find eternal life with Him. At this, many of his followers left Him in disgust at what He said: why is this guy telling me to eat him?????? The only people that remained were His apostles. Well, in fact this is the basis for the sacrament of the Eucharist, that we as Catholics celebrate in the liturgy every Sunday. The true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which many protestants deny, just as the followers of Jesus left Him right when he said it. Again, from a basic understanding of the Theology, but I believe fairly well developed.

    And for the Guy that said something as a rebuttal to all of the great thinkers that are present in the faith, I believe he stated that they have been blinded by the religion of their parents and have since not seen any other way of thinking. I remember in particular, C.S. Lewis who was BROUGHT BACK to the faith through his studies of G.K. Chesterton. SO, in fact, your rebuttal is rather weak.

    Thanks for your time! I hope that those who read this gain something from it, and I should probably pay some more attention in class! 🙂 Have a good day everyone, and I will continue to pray for you all!

    July 26, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

      Wrinkled gibberish.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
    • flying spaghetti monster

      This really has no logic to it whatsoever. It's the convoluted tortured "reasoning" that is the hallmark of the faithful attempting to show some sort of logical basis for their beliefs.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
      • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

        That's the problem. I have no problem with religious belief as long as people just say their beliefs are based on faith. It's when they try to legitimize their beliefs with ridiculous logic that it becomes tedious.

        July 26, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • Damocles

      Yes, yes I did gain something from this. A headache when my head impacted my desk.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      if you're going to bring up Contingency, you have to apply it to god too, otherwise you're cheating. god cannot be used to explain itself. so that eliminates god.

      and you're entirely wrong about hitchens. you assume because someone came up with an answer like "religion poisons everything" that they haven't delved deep enough. arrogance on your side. just because you don't like the answer they gave doesn't mean they didn't understand the question. read thomas paine. paine > aquinas. we have delved deep - and we find god lacking.

      have you actually and truly considered that there is god? have you truly looked at the evidence and made an informed decision? it's doubtful. you ask us to look deeper into faith - i ask you to look deeper into cognitive thinking. and i don't mean this as an insult. you sound like a smart person - but you've been brainwashed. religion teaches you to obey, never question. i suggest you question religion. deeply.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
      • Greg

        Thanks for the credible response!
        First let's attack the contingency part of this. One of the ways in which I define God (in a wordly sense if it can be done) would be the non contingent contingency. Meaning, that he would be the reason for His own being. You cannot argue you that for energy or a big boom (which was first theorized by a Catholic Priest). This contingency is where my faith comes into play, where reason fails, faith enters. Just as one can argue, that you in fact, have Faith that one day the reason and the how for our existence will come to light through scientific, empirical terms. Which if it were empirical, well then, through logic, it would still be contingent.

        Next, on Hitchens, no it is not that I am upset with his disagreement of my faith, rather it is his blind assumptions on the faith, where he is utterly, wrong. Yet, he continued to argue these points as if they were what is meant by Church teaching, or correct interpretations of the bible. An example of this would be his interpretation of the Book of Genesis. This is my problem, his dismissal of the complexity of the CATHOLIC church which lead his arguments down a simplistic path. But as I stated Hitchens was an extremely smart man. His political view points were generally precise and he could argue from any side he wanted and still present an excellent debate. Trust me on this one, I have wasted my life away watching Hitchens debates! haha

        With regards to Paine and Aquinas, well, you could say that they were stuck in the same rut we are right now. One has faith, one does not...are we ever going to get anywhere unless one loses or one gains the faith, no. But the point is that while, most people on this website will argue that Religious are brain washed, or something along those lines, I was merely pointing out that some of the worlds greatest thinkers and, dare I say, scientific contributors come from the Catholic faith. You must understand that the faith is a struggle (this means a lot more then simply a struggle I just don't have time to go into it), and there is much more to it then what is presented in the funny on line columns. This is why I challenge you to further your studies of the faith. I left the faith because of the challenge it presented to me, thankfully I came back! So read those great thinkers, try to understand it! As for my challenge from you, I will continue to study the other great thinkers; Paine, Jefferson, Marx, Nietzsche.
        Cheers,
        Greg

        July 26, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
        • Damocles

          Energy does not require recognition either.

          I fail to understand how believers want to harp on this supposed 'something from nothing' when that is what they offer. Either the energy/particles has existed for all time like you claim that your deity has, or the deity came here and created something from nothing, which you just said isn't possible.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
        • Johnny

          YOu can't just say that everything needs a cause except for your god. If everything needs a cause then so does god. If god does not need a cause to exist then it is possible that the universe could have always existed as well.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • Zombie God

      Faith is required out of the lack of credible evidence. There is zero credible evidence for any of the gods that men speak of. Faith is always required. It is you that does not truly understand what defines faith or why it is required.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      "For the evidence of God's hand in creation" – When I got to this point in your post I stopped reading, because I immediately realized you're an idiot.

      July 26, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
    • Anita Dollar

      Looks, it's pretty simple. People either believe or don't believe. Issuing silly challenges isn't going to change that.
      I truly couldn't care less what CS Lewis or Hitchens says. Or you, for that matter.

      July 26, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
    • Just the Facts Ma'am...

      "it had to start from some no contingent contingency." Bull shlt. Total and utter bull shlt. You use the logic of contingency to claim we come from something else, and yet you suspend logic to claim something as a "no contingent contingency". It is the same argument as the "The universe is to complex to have happened by itself, so i'll invent a more complex being to have created it but then not explain how a more complex being could exist withou a more complex creator. This would suggest that your first use of logic was invalid because you refuse to continue its use.

      It would be similar to organizing a soccer game and explaning all the rules to the players and everyone is having fun, but then just before the end of the game, as a forward you pick up the ball with your hands and run accross the field and throw it into the goal because you were losing. You cannot claim to have won by simply changing the rules mid game. You cannot use the existence of complex beings contingent upon other things for their existence to then invent a being that doesn't have to play by the rules.

      July 26, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
      • Greg

        So then I challenge you to answer this question. Where did it all start from? Where do you place your belief? Because if you place your belief that we all came from nothing then that is where you started, is that really reason? I would argue no because it has yet to be empirically proven, It is still faith, because your REASON cannot be used to understand how you and I started. Where you place your faith may be different then mine, that's fine, but to say that Catholicism is blind ignorance is, blind ignorance.

        July 26, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
        • Joe

          My answer is simply I don't know, no faith involved. However, I find the evidence for the Big Bang and Evolution to be much more compelling than I find the Bible. Also no one claims we came from nothing. All of the energy that is in the Universe was around at the time of the Big Bang, and we are nothing more than that energy arranged in a different way.

          July 26, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
        • sigh

          I see. God made the universe. Who made God? Nobody. He's always been there. Can't the universe always have been there? No, because God made the universe. But who made God? Nobody. He's always been there. But can't the universe have always been there? No. Because God made the universe. Okay, but who bade God? Nobody. He's always been there. But can't the universe have always been there? No. Because God made the universe. But who made God? And so on and so on and so on and so on and so on.

          July 26, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        I don't have a problem saying the words "I don't know.", do you? The problem is that most religous persons are so insecure that they think they MUST have an answer or their brains will explode. I can but conjecture about the possibilties and plausabilities of universal origins. To claim you "know" something on faith is beyond stupid. To say "this might be one possibility" is acceptable but religious persons refuse to leave it there which is why the rest of us must constantly refute these religious absolutes.

        Some other possibilities for our origins that most religious persons ignore is the possibility that our universe has always existed in some form. Our universe might just be a matter "pimple" expanding out of an unknown amount of dark matter that exists in another dimension and the big bang was just a release of that dark matter into matter through a tiny rip in the dimensiaonal fabric. Science has already proven the existence of dark matter and that "empty space" isn't really empty, so it's not that big of a leap to theorize on it being the origin of our physical universe.

        Other theorys include the mobius strip theory of a universe ever expanding and contracting constantly renewing itself every 50 billion years.

        Religions primary purpose for thousands of years has been to control people, plain and simple. It has served no other purpose and has never done anything that could be undeniably considered "supernatural". This leads me to believe that we will see about the same from religion over the next few thousand years. Because this is the case I shall never again participate or be a member of any relgion, not even atheism as some try to make a church out of it.

        July 26, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
    • Bippy the new lesser to medium level judging squirrel god

      Two BIG problems Greggy.
      1. The cause doesn't have to be the ULTIMATE cause. Just because this universe is "contingent" does not mean the non contingent cause of THIS universe HAS to be the ULTIMATE cause. It's could be just "proximate" cause, and it doesn't have to be a god.
      2. Logic is useless. The universe has been proven to be non-intuitive. What appears to be "logical" to human brains, is not what Reality is. (Relativity, Uncertainty, Quantum Mechanics, the math of Dirac).

      July 26, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
  18. trollol

    Mindless sheep!

    July 26, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
    • lionlylamb

      Tell us good shepherd, where are all the mindful sheep being shepherded..?

      July 26, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
      • Jim

        Everywhere but church lionylamb

        July 26, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
  19. Zombie God

    Wishful thinking is the cure for all.

    July 26, 2013 at 11:44 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.