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October 30th, 2013
08:49 AM ET

Cute kid won't leave Pope Francis alone

(CNN) - A cute little boy joined Pope Francis on stage in St. Peter's Square last weekend during a Catholic celebration of the family and refused to leave, forcing the pontiff to put Jesus' words about "suffering" the little children into practice.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Catholic Church • Pope Francis

soundoff (418 Responses)
  1. Camilla

    http://myJobCash.com/?id=camillas

    October 30, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
  2. Mr. Olsnes-Lea

    Atheism is now DEAD!

    The /expressed/ reasoning for why Atheism is gone from the universities is this:
    The logical foundation, in not anymore being able to object to the "whitelist" Religions:
    They have no possibility to logically prove the impossibility of God.
    They have failed to be the first to prove the Soul by the Van Lommel studies, to prove the Descartes' Phantom Feelings by fMRI, to prove the statistical existence of telepathy as the human direct perception in everyday life of Quantum Mechanics, seriously, i.e., they are scientifically inferior or, worse, scientifically dishonest, maybe pathologically so too!
    They do not bother to display seriousness toward leadership by taking on Humanist Values, being serious to ethics.

    These charges are serious against Atheism and will evidently be their bane too, whether "Positive Atheism", Atheism as private view of life, or "Negative Atheism", Atheism as (valid) objection to the Religions!

    End note for them: they comply (only) with archaic Aristotelian "Natural Life Cycle", i.e., one type of Naturalism as "Life Philosophy" and in doing so fail the future opportunities for being credible leaders because they say explicitly that they are NOT Humanists which includes to be serious about ethics and human-to-human and human-to-nature interactions!

    Even still, the Atheists need to realise that Humanism remains the only viable strategy for them and turn to it as soon as possible or face ridicule!

    Final statement from myself, Olsnes-Lea (accountable)!

    PS: Thanks to CNN for public statement in the 80s. Some duties to public information may arise from this text.

    Extra:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_leadership .

    Ethical leadership – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org
    Traditionally, the view of leadership has been that the main goal of leaders is ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism .

    Humanism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org
    Humanism is a group of philosophies and ethical perspectives which emphasize the...

    The university duties for ethical leadership GO DEEP! Understand this, please, of find yourself OUT!

    October 30, 2013 at 11:23 pm |
    • Ashrakay

      You lost me at "hello"

      October 30, 2013 at 11:39 pm |
    • sam stone.

      amazing, all those words to say absolutely nothing. atheism is not nessarily the affirmative statement that says there is definitely no god. but, i suppose like many ranters on this blog, you are immune to reason. so, bloviate on

      October 30, 2013 at 11:42 pm |
    • Billy (having just read from The Diaries of an Armchair Philosopher--well not armchair - maybe an old, broken Lazy-Boy)

      Pigeon p00p. Not that there is no value to humanistic ideals, but Mr. O's wild assertions are way too simplistic in trying to bucketize different types of atheism and, in doing so, somehow misses some important basics (as noted by sam). I smell lunatic.

      October 31, 2013 at 9:07 am |
  3. children of Israel

    1st John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. *1st John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: *1st John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:

    October 30, 2013 at 10:11 pm |
  4. children of Israel

    When you deny Christ, you deny Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. *Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

    October 30, 2013 at 9:52 pm |
  5. Kate

    Here's a good comment to Pope Francis recent speeches about need of helping the poor.

    "You will soon be told to use your faith to create a political campaign around the world to save the poor
    Sunday, October 6th, 2013 @ 23:20

    My dearly beloved daughter, the voice of the false prophet roars about all that is sacred in My Church. Little, however, will be said about the importance of upholding God’s Teachings, Sacraments and the Proclamation of the Truth. Instead, you will see diversions, such as looking after the world’s poor and hungry, and this will be deemed to be your first task as servants of God.

    As servants and followers of God in the Church, your first allegiance is to the Truth of what I told you. Loving the poor and the hungry and helping them is a good thing, but My Church on Earth has a much bigger role, which was sworn to Me. This includes the teaching of the Truth in everything I taught you and you will do this, if you truly love Me.

    The Church has a Mission to teach the Truth of My Teachings. Taking one aspect of My Word, to help the poor is admirable, but misleading, as My Teachings clearly state that you must help the poor in soul. Help them to cure their soul, before you help them to be free of life’s afflictions. If I give you a poor man and ask you to help him, how would you do this? Give him clothes? Money to feed his family? Or, would you have Me save his soul first?

    You will soon be told to focus all your attention on the world’s poor. You will be asked for money – and this will be taken from different sources to help the world’s poor, jobless and homeless. You will be told that I, Jesus Christ, always loved the poor. The problem is this. I seek out the poor of spirit first – to free them away from their lost lives. The poor of soul – those who have little spiritual feeling for God – are the ones I crave. Blessed are those who are poor in this life, with little to show for it, but who love Me, for these people are not poor at all. The rich man, who has no love for Me, is in more need of My Love, My Mercy, My Compassion, than those who are forced to find food, clothes and shelter. How you love Me and how you ask Me to save you is what you need to pay attention to. The Sacraments will be the saving force of those who are rich and poor, but who have no love for Me.

    You will soon be told to use your faith to create a political campaign around the world to save the poor by leaders in My Churches everywhere. Nothing will be said to encourage you to prepare for My Second Coming, for they will not dare to prepare you for this Great Day. They would rather take your mind off Me by asking you to spend more time honouring the works of the false prophet.

    Very shortly, statues, relics, posters, cups and large commissioned paintings will be made of the false prophet to be placed in Churches everywhere. His image, along with the antichrist, in time, will adorn many public places, churches, political centres, as well as, in countries where their parliaments will be seen to embrace the Catholic Church in a ‘new light.’ This will create a new form of false evangelism, and because it will appeal to a modern secular society, it will attract admirers from all over the world.

    Not one word will condone the importance of the Holy Sacraments, as they were given to the world or the important Graces, which they yield. Instead, each will be played down – extra meanings added, in order to appeal to those who deny them as they are. This will be in the hope that the abomination of the desecration of My Sacraments will be offered to as many people as possible, to take them away from God, so that the enemies of God can complete their pact with the devil.

    The devil will deceive many who belong to My Church in this time in history. He will do this in the most charming and convincing way and he will justify lies when his servants will say that I would approve of these new changes. I, Jesus Christ, will be misquoted in order to win over souls. My Teachings will be twisted in order to destroy My Church and steal those souls closest to Me. Millions will accept the lies, without a care in the world. You must pray for them in the hope that they will realise, in time, that something is wrong.

    When I appoint leaders and when a chosen soul has been appointed to spread My Holy Word, within My Church on Earth, the Truth is always straightforward, clear, concise, and straight to the point. When you are being lied to, through the influence of the spirit of evil, you will become confused. Phrases won’t make sense. So-called improvements, presented by enemies within My Church, mean that the Truth is not ‘good enough.’

    My Word, My Sacraments, My Teachings do not need to be improved upon, for they came from Me. I Am God. I Am Perfect. My Word remains forever. Any man who tampers with My Most Holy Word is an enemy of God. My Anger is great at this time and any man who treats My Body, the Most Holy Eucharist, with disrespect and says he leads My people, know that this is untrue. I would never request a leader in My Church to change the Word of God, by introducing new meanings or new interpretations. This could never be.

    Your Jesus

    Read more prophecies
    http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com

    October 30, 2013 at 9:03 pm |
  6. Kate

    I may be their only true friend, their only salvation, but many of them will ignore My Warnings
    Friday, October 18th, 2013 @ 12:38

    My dearly beloved daughter, My greatest sadness is that those who love Me the most, in their masses, will refuse to hear My Voice, now as I call out to them.

    I may be their only true friend, their only salvation, but many of them will ignore My Warnings. Even those who hear My Voice will ignore Me and dismiss My Words as heresy. They will not recognise the times they live in and will only realise the Truth during The Warning. By then, many of them will have cursed Me and removed themselves so far beyond Me that I will not be able to reach into their hearts or save their souls.

    Do not underestimate the hatred which the devil has for Me. He betrayed My Father terribly, but he detests Me. This means that he hates My Church and it will be between My Church on Earth and the demons sent by Satan that the final battle will take place. This battle has commenced and has already stolen My beloved souls, many of whom have failed to see how they offend God.

    When My Presence is felt soon, amongst all those who love Me – irrespective of whether they believe in these Messages or not – I will flood their souls with knowledge by the Power of the Holy Spirit. That is My Promise to the world. I will never forsake you to the power of evil, for I love you all so much. You are like a Limb from My Body. You are part of My Body. You are Part of Me.

    Whether you want Me to or not, I will follow you until the Great Day and I will fight to save your soul. You may turn your back on Me, but I will not forsake you, for I Am patient. My Perseverance and Divinity are beyond your knowing. You must never forget Me, Your Jesus, for I Am with you always, waiting for you to come to Me.

    Your beloved Saviour

    Redeemer of Mankind

    Jesus Christ

    http://WWW.THEWARNINGSECONDCOMING.COM

    October 30, 2013 at 9:00 pm |
    • Answer

      Give a date.

      You freaks do love your "it is the second coming" crap. Go fucking die off already.

      October 30, 2013 at 9:07 pm |
    • sam stone.

      spend a lot of time on your knees, kate?

      October 30, 2013 at 11:50 pm |
  7. Live4Him

    AE, is that me?

    October 30, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
    • Boyfriend and Girlfriend

      Don't ya know.

      October 30, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
    • Colin

      It takes a particular degree of cowardice not to use your "real" name even on a totally anonymous blog.

      October 30, 2013 at 8:35 pm |
      • doobzz

        Why do you say that?

        November 1, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
  8. Alan

    Go Michaela! Nice piece.
    – Big Al from Pasadena

    October 30, 2013 at 7:30 pm |
  9. Answer

    Pick a job .. any job.

    How will you end up doing it in heaven?

    Will there be competition in the heaven market? Competition ultimately will use resources and therefore produce a product to market, whilst producing garbage. You gotta love that garbage. @_@

    October 30, 2013 at 7:06 pm |
    • AE

      Physicist. It is a lot like how I would do it here, but everything is floating around so it is a little more challenging.

      October 30, 2013 at 7:11 pm |
    • Answer

      Go ahead with that...

      How would a physicist go about doing his job up in heaven? Let's put together the tools he/she will need. And of course the energy requirements of an undertaking.

      Go on freaks.. explain how a physicist would go about it in heaven?

      Scenario:

      'Physicist' : "God, how can make a particle accelerator here up in heaven."

      'God': "Why do you need one?"

      'Physicist': "Because, in life I didn't finish up my research on earth. I still don't know."

      'God': "I will tell you."

      'Physicist': "Ok.'

      ~end. Whatever your job.. your god has the answer. Why do you need a job?

      October 30, 2013 at 7:17 pm |
    • AE

      Good point. Nobel Prize winning physicist Paul A. M. Dirac said “God is a mathematician of a very high order and He used advanced mathematics in constructing the universe.”

      He probably won't need physicists. I think I'll be a poet.

      October 30, 2013 at 7:21 pm |
    • fred

      Answer
      You are speaking about heaven. I suggest you begin with thoughts that are not so dark and earthy.

      October 30, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
    • Answer

      Poet.. go choice.

      How will you dispense with your poetry? By what method. Written? Fax? Internet?

      Oh let's see.. right.. to make paper. Do you know how paper is made?

      Let's give your heaven an internet. The engineers who have already died are probably setting it up in heaven or have done it already. With Steve Jobs and his newest IPad designs up in heaven... all that marketability up in heaven.

      Let's see your endless delusions put up in the lovely display of sound logic written on a messageboard.

      Oh and btw.. Steve Jobs, is he in heaven? Are there engineers up there? More questions..

      October 30, 2013 at 7:27 pm |
    • Answer

      Let's see there is the newest IPad version 5.. here on earth. Steve Jobs passed away before it's release...

      In your heaven summation: will there be an IPad 5 awaiting you? Or will the technology of the IPad 4 be the final? lol

      October 30, 2013 at 7:32 pm |
  10. Bobby

    It's hilarious to me that of the few dozen comments, only four or so are about the article and the rest are trying to start fights.

    October 30, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
    • AE

      Welcome!

      October 30, 2013 at 6:57 pm |
    • ?

      Bobby
      Pssst...266 responses, you will find the belief blog is a free for all, from young earth creation nuts to very aggressive anti-theists and everything in between. Of course you could just go to an educational reality show, if there is such a thing on TV.

      October 30, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • OTOH

      Bobby,

      What's to comment on? It's a 3-line article! The "oh, isn't he cute" or "oh, isn't he delusional" comments wore out pretty fast.

      October 30, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
  11. Answer

    To the religious freaks that don't want to think... let's just consider talking about your delicious 'heaven'. Today.

    Begin by::

    Describing your heaven. Give details.

    ===Here is the logic that will crumble your twisted delusions of that happy place.===

    What ever will you do? Do you live in any buildings up in your heaven?

    Is it spacious? Is it wide? How far can you "see" – all around you? Give us the full 360 degree. Picture it.

    Then you'll see how ridiculous your want is. And to top it all off – let us know if your heaven involves magic.
    I bet you all the money in the world that you'll picture the use of magic that cleans up the streets.

    ~When a garbageman arrives in heaven – that person is officially a useless being.~

    October 30, 2013 at 6:05 pm |
    • I'll play

      It's a little like the twilight zone for me. A big field with some empty houses, like a subdivision but nobody is there except me. There are no televisions, no cars, no electricity. It's cool and sunny with a nice breeze. I'm not hungry and there is no food anyway nothing to clean up. The person I am currently infatuated with shows up inside one of the houses and we spend eternity deciding what staircase to enjoy in what house. I told one other person this once. They said it was there version of hell.

      October 30, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
      • I'll play

        "their".

        Anyway I guess haunting an undeveloped subdivision would suffice pretty well for me.

        October 30, 2013 at 6:19 pm |
        • ?

          I'll play
          I have always been afraid to take my blow up gal to Halloween parties even if I am dressed up in drag.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:45 pm |
        • I'll play

          I wouldn't worry about it question mark, people will just think it's a costume.

          October 30, 2013 at 8:35 pm |
    • Answer

      Here are the important words you should consider:

      1) Garbage
      2) Garbageman
      3) Pristine
      4) Beautiful
      5) Wholesome
      6) Wonderful
      7) Place

      ~~ By golly that garbage really ruins your heaven without the use of magic to get rid of it. Or that nobody who ends up in heaven will produce any garbage.

      October 30, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
      • I'll play

        How much garbage does a ghost need to make, really? It's not like you'd need Evian, what would you drink it with?

        October 30, 2013 at 6:29 pm |
        • ?

          Booker's gin.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
      • ?

        Brokers Gin, too much, too much......

        October 30, 2013 at 7:54 pm |
      • I'll play

        Everybody has a wish, something that isn't possible in our lives. What do you wish for?

        October 30, 2013 at 8:48 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Exploration that oftentimes pays great rewards and always provides leaps in insight and understanding. Perhaps an exploration of the multiverse in all its possible shapes and in all its possible scales?

      October 30, 2013 at 6:39 pm |
      • I'll play

        That's a great thought Captain, and there'd be "no body" holding you back from your travel

        October 30, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
    • AE

      I have it on good authority that there is an excellent recycling program in heaven. No garbage.

      October 30, 2013 at 6:55 pm |
      • Answer

        Sure sure..

        The freak who wants to stifle his own mind on thought and wants that delusion that "I'll go to my happy place when I'm dead."

        October 30, 2013 at 7:01 pm |
        • AE

          I probably don't think about heaven as much as you talk about it.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
        • Answer

          Sure right freak..

          Bet my bottom dollar you're repressing your doubts about your death and going to heaven. But as a keepsake moment ~ "I will be going to heaven and you won't."

          October 30, 2013 at 7:08 pm |
        • Answer

          Have you strung these words together yet – you freak?

          1) Garbage
          2) Garbageman
          3) Pristine
          4) Beautiful
          5) Wholesome
          6) Wonderful
          7) Place

          ~Everyone can taste your denial – deny deny and more denial.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
        • AE

          I'm more focused on today.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:14 pm |
        • Answer

          Sure.. more lies you tell yourself that you're in it for the moment. Betting you end up in heaven because you no longer care about knowledge or settle on your own capability to think.

          Religious freaks love cop outs.. smell it on you freaks. It's just hilarious: the lies your kind make up to end your own questioning.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:20 pm |
        • AE

          Quite an imagination you have. It is just in your head and not my reality. Thank goodness.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:22 pm |
        • Answer

          Sure sure.

          "I will bat you away with my godly-ness."

          October 30, 2013 at 7:28 pm |
    • fred

      Answer
      The Kingdom of God is simply eternal life in Christ your King. Eternal life begins the moment you are born again of water and spirit. In that instant there is a real transformation of body and soul that begins to see and understand the things of God. You cannot see or touch the Kingdom of God as one would experience say the Magic Kingdom created by Disney. It is not visible like a theme park nor are the treasures one stores in the Kingdom of God visible like Captain Hooks Booty. Treasures are Joy, faith, hope, patience, love, forgiveness, gentleness and kindness.

      None of us are pure in heart so we cannot grasp thought that is a burning holiness. We will be like that holiness as we will be like Christ (not a god but white as snow without evil thought of any kind).

      October 30, 2013 at 7:07 pm |
      • Answer

        @fred

        Will you be a deadbeat like you are now; up in heaven? For you – we know you are.

        And here is another:: fuck off.

        October 30, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
        • fred

          I see you are starting to get the picture. Thoughts as you expressed are not part of Gods burning holiness. Such thoughts will be separated eternally from the Kingdom of God.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:12 pm |
        • Answer

          @fred

          Go fuck off.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:22 pm |
        • fred

          Sorry but "fuck off" is not a thought, feeling or expression a heavenly body would be exposed to. You cannot bring your gutter talk, gutter thoughts and feelings into the Kingdom..

          October 30, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
      • sam stone.

        i suppose describing heave isn't any more arrogant than descibing god

        you christians are amusing

        October 30, 2013 at 7:21 pm |
        • fred

          Not that hard, you will note that Answer does not have a clue that he is completely absorbed into the things that are the opposite of Heaven. On the hand believers that know the love of God would imagine something more like a white light rather than a dark bottomless abyss.

          I can only state what the Bible claims. Ok, I made some assumptions based on the picture language used throughout the Bible. Where it discusses streets of Gold and walls of Jasper for example I assume it simply says get ready for an entrance that will blow your socks off.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
        • sam stone.

          of course, freddie, you are the authority on both god and heaven

          nothing arrogant about that, is there?

          October 30, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
        • sam stone.

          wow, another one who cannot tell the difference between belief and knowledge

          October 30, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
        • sam stone.

          when you say you made some assumptions, i suspect you left out the big one; and that is that the bible is the word of god.

          October 30, 2013 at 8:08 pm |
        • fred

          sam
          If you are speaking about the heaven of the Bible then you use the Bible. Where my belief differs from others is that certain words are not necessarily expression of fact. Certainly you could have streets of gold and walls of jasper but it is doubtful that is what the writer in his time was attempting to convey.

          So what is your vision and source for that vision when it comes to your existence after death?

          October 30, 2013 at 8:15 pm |
        • fred

          sam
          "the bible is the word of god"
          Most people have a translation in their home yet the word of god is not the translated words. The word of God speaks to the heart through the Holy Spirit as one meditates on the Bible. We loosely say the Bible is the Word of God. When Jesus confirmed the word of God he was speaking of the word as given by God to man not the Hebrew or Greek text.

          October 30, 2013 at 8:21 pm |
        • sam stone.

          fred: i do not envision any life after death. my source is my sense of reason.

          October 30, 2013 at 11:56 pm |
        • fred

          sam
          So, your reasoning is greater than Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus etc. not to mention all the presidents of the United States of America? Humm..........humility at it best.

          October 31, 2013 at 1:13 am |
        • sam stone.

          "So, your reasoning is greater than Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus etc. not to mention all the presidents of the United States of America? "

          Never made that claim, freddie. How is that reading comprehension? I can only believe in things i find believable. Is that a wee bit too complex for you? Whether they agree or disagree with others, prominent or not, is not the issue. Anyway, isn't it you jeebus suckers who claim that heaven and hell is about faith, not reason. As far as humility goes, perhaps we should ask any number or regular christian bloggers what god thinks, they all seem to KNOW, not simply believe. Well, there's you, and Larry of Arabia, and Gopher, and Robbie (I cannot possibly be wrong about god) Brown. Alll I have is an opinion, and I express it as such. AE, another one of the brilliant christians, calls his opinions FACTS That being said, freddie, extract the crucifix from your backside

          October 31, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
        • sam stone.

          gee, freddie, what's the matter? someone hit you with a bit of logic and you take the gopher route of running like a wet pants little girl? not much of a surprise

          November 1, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Describe heaven, give details. We have some information about heaven in the bible, but I suppose you want believers to describe how they think it will be. We are told it is beautiful and free from sin. Since there is no sin, a lot of negative things that we experience here in time will be absent in eternity. Some things missing will be infirmities, disease, pain, sorrow, and death. The blind will see. The deaf will hear. The lame will walk. Everyone will be happy, at peace, and satisfied. Given those few descriptions will it really matter what we do? If so, imagine the things that make you happy. The last one is for those who have been saved by the grace of God, imagine the most intense spiritual blessing you have ever experienced. I believe that is just a little glimpse of heaven.

      October 30, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
      • Answer

        So you want all the nice stuff to be there waiting for you. All the fluff and goodness but you can't accept all of it.

        Your god creates pain and then in heaven it's not there. You can't die ever again in heaven, although your god created death.

        Your god created sweating, as a way to cool off the body.. of course you won't ever sweat again in heaven.
        The fact of smelling a flower's essence ~ it's sweetness won't be there also, that's pollution. Ever think of that you freaks?

        Just that the flower itself ~ when it is blooming ~ and releasing pollen in the air is what will be in your olfactory sense later.
        Those tiny buds of pollution are a means of reproduction. Oops ~ you won't need to reproduce either in heaven.

        Forget about having kids in heaven ~ ooh the pain of childbirth!

        All you sweet nothings and excuses to justify your delusions. Simple words and logic destroy your pitiful made up self conflagrations at an answer. A simple answer to just sooth away the real pain of thinking.

        October 30, 2013 at 9:05 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          I think there will be flowers and children in heaven. The real question is will you be there.

          October 30, 2013 at 9:31 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          ?

          October 30, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
        • sam stone.

          robbie: i do not believe it exists, so i do not believe i will be there

          October 30, 2013 at 11:58 pm |
  12. HotAirAce

    Just because someone felt abused:

    "So a little boy evades Pope-A-Dope's security and just wanders up to one of the world's biggest charlatan shamans for a personal show and tell session. How did they know he wasn't"

    October 30, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      "a suicide bomber."

      October 30, 2013 at 5:48 pm |
  13. Live4Him

    @Sue : Why can't a "god" produce a modern text, or perhaps even use the modern internet???

    How could any god take such an action without revealing its existence beyond the limits of faith?

    October 30, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • Little Timmy

      So God wants to play hide and seek?

      October 30, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
      • Topher

        Little Timmy

        Who's hiding? He already gave you 66 books in order to know Him.

        October 30, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
        • Little Timmy

          That didn't work out so well. People wound up with too many opinions about things. One group who tried to follow it even sacrificed some people a couple of years ago. Down in Mexico.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
        • Little Timmy

          Then you have the people who don't take their kids to the doctor when they are sick. They got a different message from the same book.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:38 pm |
        • Topher

          So don't listen to fallible man's opinions. Just read the Bible, given to us by a perfect and just God.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
        • Little Timmy

          Seems to me it was written by fallible men. Which goes back to Sue's original question which was:

          "Furthermore, those copies were produced by humans. Why can't a "god" produce a modern text, or perhaps even use the modern internet???"

          October 30, 2013 at 5:45 pm |
        • Topher

          Little Timmy

          "Seems to me it was written by fallible men."

          Well, yes and no. Fallible man did "write" it, but they were inspired by God, thus you can trust it. Don't believe me? Archaeology continues to confirm it. No other book in antiquity has been vetted like the Bible. It was written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (so there's an automatic baloney detector.) And you're talking about a book written by 40 authors over 1500 years and nobody messed up the story. I personally find that amazing. There aren't even any contradictions.

          "Which goes back to Sue's original question which was: "Furthermore, those copies were produced by humans. Why can't a "god" produce a modern text, or perhaps even use the modern internet???""

          Why should He have to? He came and walked among us. He performed miracles and raised Himself from the dead to prove His divinity. He gave us the 66 books. The Bible says we all have the creation and a conscience to know He exists and thus will be without excuse. It all points to Him. So if you want to contend that God is untrue, it really comes down to you don't WANT Him to be true.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:52 pm |
        • Little Timmy

          So anyone inspired by a god can be trusted?

          October 30, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Timmy
          Ask Topher why jesus/messiah did not return from his ascension within a generation as predicted and we are still waiting 2000 years later for the big encore. I would ask myself but I fear Topher in an unchristian like manner will not turn the other cheek and converse with me, several times just today.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
        • Answer

          @Little Timmy

          These religious freaks will go a long long way to make excuses for their "want" and/or "need" of a god. It is a simple thing called 'deferment' that has been ingrained into these pathetic louses. That deferment is called 'heaven.'

          In their twisted delusions of 'want' they've sacrificed their brains so they can allow themselves to stave off the fear of death. They give themselves this security blanket so their minds won't crumble away.

          They're always putting up and re-enforcing their "christian-bubble" every moment of each day. They're pathetic.

          ===This is one line that describes their petty excuses of why their religious:

          - "I've got heaven coming to me if I'm a little good christian." --

          October 30, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
        • A Frayed Knot

          Topher,

          " It was written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses (so there's an automatic baloney detector.)"
          - Nope. Most of the people (Jews & others) living in the area at that time (and within earshot/viewing distance of this preacher) did not buy it.

          "And you're talking about a book written by 40 authors over 1500 years and nobody messed up the story."]
          - Do you know how the book you see today was compiled? Only writings that matched the "party line" were picked to be featured in it.

          As for mistakes and false information - you have been given lists quite a few times, which you ignore. So, nevermind. Find them yourself.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:59 pm |
        • Topher

          Little Timmy

          "So anyone inspired by a god can be trusted?"

          Depends on your definition of "inspired." Those men, directly acted upon by God, you can trust those specific words we have in scripture. But let's say we found a new docu.ment and we KNEW Paul wrote it. That doesn't mean it is divinely inspired. Only scripture is inspired. Now if you're talking about someone feeling like God told them to do something and they go blow up a clinic, clearly, no, you can't trust them.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
        • Topher

          "- "I've got heaven coming to me if I'm a little good christian." –"

          Umm ... no. That's not Christian theology at all. More rejection and mockery by people who don't even understand it.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:01 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          I recant, Topher did deem to answer my post below, I feel so guilty for having disparaged Topher, not really, but it sounds good, part of forgiveness.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:06 pm |
        • Topher

          A Frayed Knot

          "Nope. Most of the people (Jews & others) living in the area at that time (and within earshot/viewing distance of this preacher) did not buy it."

          True not everyone believed He was God. But thousands did. The eyewitnesses reported what they saw. The second set of witnesses could have called them on it. They didn't. Because they reported what really happened. You have to admit SOMETHING happened then big enough for us to change our calendars. SOMETHING had to happen big enough for the Jews to change their religion, including changing the Sabbath.

          "– Do you know how the book you see today was compiled? Only writings that matched the "party line" were picked to be featured in it."

          Well ... yeah. There's standards, tests if you will, they had to meet. That's a pretty fair thing, I think, when you are making the claims these people made.

          "As for mistakes and false information – you have been given lists quite a few times, which you ignore. So, nevermind. Find them yourself."

          Yeah, I've seen some lists and NONE of them displayed anything that disproved the Bible.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:06 pm |
        • A Frayed Knot

          Topher,

          " Now if you're talking about someone feeling like God told them to do something and they go blow up a clinic, clearly, no, you can't trust them."

          But you'll trust someone who said that "The Lord" told him to go kill all the Midianites and Amalekites, including women and children (except if they wanted to keep a few "maidens" for themselves, ahem)?

          I doubt that you'd buy a used car from Moses if you ran across him today!

          October 30, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
        • A Frayed Knot

          Topher,

          "The second set of witnesses could have called them on it. They didn't."
          - How do you know they didn't?

          "You have to admit SOMETHING happened then big enough for us to change our calendars."
          - The B.C./A.D. dating system was the brainchild of a monk named Dionysius in the 6th century. The Church was very powerful in those days and controlled many aspects of society, including politics, economics, literature and history-writing... still, his dating system took hundreds of years (nearly 1000) to be inst-ituted world-wide. Many cultures still keep their ancient calendars going on the side.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
        • sam stone.

          gopher: you are a snivelling coward, and your god is a vindictive, petty pr1ck. thanks for playing. now, boy, go home and get your fvcking shinebox

          October 30, 2013 at 6:18 pm |
        • Topher

          A Frayed Knot

          "– How do you know they didn't?"

          Do you really think this would have spread during those early days if there were others calling them on it? We're talking many thousands at a time seeing Jesus perform miracles and giving His talks. Remember what early believers went through ... intense persecution. Persecution unto death. If they were lying I doubt very much they would have taken when they got without cracking. No one goes to their torturous deaths for a lie.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:20 pm |
        • A Frayed Knot

          Topher,

          Do you really think this would have spread during those early days if there were others calling them on it?
          We're talking many thousands at a time seeing Jesus perform miracles and giving His talks. Remember what early believers went through ... intense persecution"
          - Well, maybe that persecution WAS their (albeit barbaric) way of calling them on it.

          " If they were lying I doubt very much they would have taken when they got without cracking. No one goes to their torturous deaths for a lie."
          - It happens. People suffer & die for mistaken beliefs... David Koresh's followers, Jim Jones' followers, Muslim suicide bombers, to name a recent few.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:27 pm |
        • Topher

          A Frayed Knot

          "– It happens. People suffer & die for mistaken beliefs... David Koresh's followers, Jim Jones' followers, Muslim suicide bombers, to name a recent few."

          But these would not have been mistaken beliefs. They saw Him perform miracles. They saw Him several times over 40 days AFTER His death and burial. This is a whole different situation from Koresh or Jones. Jesus wasn't just some ultra cool speech-maker whom everyone followed. He proved who He was/is.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:48 pm |
        • A Frayed Knot

          Topher,
          "But these would not have been mistaken beliefs. They saw Him perform miracles. They saw Him several times over 40 days AFTER His death and burial."

          Did they? Or did they follow hearsay stories of these events?

          October 30, 2013 at 6:54 pm |
        • sam stone.

          gopher: god knows that some people will not accept those books, but he refuses to give any more words? it is god that is hiding

          you remain a coward

          October 30, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
        • Topher

          A Frayed Knot

          "Did they? Or did they follow hearsay stories of these events?"

          There were many THOUSANDS of witnesses.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
        • Doris

          Really Topher? Can you name a few of the witnesses? Did they write anything?

          October 30, 2013 at 10:35 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Matthew & John

          October 30, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
  14. Dyslexic doG

    Topher, Live4him et al

    If the only things you read are written by people in the same cult as you, how can you hope to see reality?

    In these postings alone you keep making claims, having them proved as false, then you move on with more claims and completely disregard the ones proven false. When so much of the bible and the Christian religion is proven as false or foolishness, how can you continue to believe? Denial, denial, denial ...

    October 30, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Dyslexic doG : If the only things you read are written by people in the same cult as you, how can you hope to see reality?

      Another assumption on your part. It's not based upon reality. Here's a sampling of books from the opposing side that I've read.

      Caullery, Maurice, Genetics and Heredity, 1964

      Darwin, Charles – The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, Avenel Books, 1859, 1968 ed., 1976 reprint

      Dawkins, Richard – The Blind Watchmaker, W.W. Norton & Company, 1985

      Durant, Will – The Story of Philosophy, Washington Square Press, 1953

      Fermi, Enrico – Thermodynamics, Dover Publications, Inc. 1956

      Hawking, Stephen W. – A Brief History of Time, Bantam Books, 1988

      Haynie, Donald T. – Biological Thermodynamics, Cambridge University Press 2001

      Johanson, Donald & Edey, Maitland – Lucy, The beginnings of Humankind, Simon and Schuster, 1981

      Rand McNally – Atlas of the World History, Rand McNally and Company, 1992

      Rhodes, Frank H.T. – Geology, Western Publishing Company, 1972

      Scanlin, Harold P. – The Dead Sea Scrolls and Modern Translations of the Old Testament, Tyndale House Publishers, 1997

      VanderKam, James C. -The Dead Sea Scrolls Today, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1994.

      October 30, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
      • Sue

        So Live4Him, given your claimed reading list, now summarize the theory of evolution for us, to demonstrate that you actually understood what you claim to have read.

        October 30, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
        • Live4Him

          Would you understand it?

          October 30, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
        • Sue

          So, Live4Him, you lack the fortitude to respond with any substance. I suspected as much. You don't even understand what you claim to disagree with.

          October 30, 2013 at 7:36 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        And not a single book from the current century.

        October 30, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
        • Live4Him

          Haynie, Donald T. – Biological Thermodynamics, Cambridge University Press 2001

          October 30, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
        • Live4Him

          AE, is that me?

          October 30, 2013 at 7:39 pm |
      • Charm Quark

        The Christian god does not know how to use modern communications or the computer, jeessuus even Frankie can tweet, what a lame a$$ god you have there L4H.

        October 30, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
    • AE

      doG has told me some goofy things about the Bible, that if one were to put the verses into context, what doG implies is completely ignorant.

      That is why I don't have any trust or confidence in what he says. And he fails to demonstrate logic and reason in his actions and words. Oh well. He imagines he proves others wrong. But that is just in his imagination.

      October 30, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
    • Topher

      Dyslexic doG

      "If the only things you read are written by people in the same cult as you, how can you hope to see reality?"

      So Christians don't live in reality? Fallacious and ridiculous.

      "In these postings alone you keep making claims, having them proved as false,"

      What exactly has been proven false in the Bible?

      " then you move on with more claims and completely disregard the ones proven false."

      I'll repeat it ... what has been proven false?

      "When so much of the bible and the Christian religion is proven as false or foolishness, how can you continue to believe?"

      Wow, the trifecta. Again ...

      October 30, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
      • Charm Quark

        Toper at ten years old....
        Topher..... Hi, Sally look at the neat bike Santa gave me.
        Sally ........Hi, 2fer, it is real neat but there is no Santa.
        Topher......Sure there is Sally my dada told me so.
        Sally..........No 2fer, your parents are really Santa, they are just fooling you.
        Topher.......You are just being silly Sally. I have a book that tells me all about Santa, where he lives, his magic sled, his reindeer, everything.
        Sally..........Sure 2fer, as she runs away.

        Topher is about the same today, pretty pathetic.

        October 30, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
        • Topher

          How about answering the question?

          October 30, 2013 at 5:26 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          What question? Did I miss something. If you are asking why many of us think that you are a moral coward, well Topher it is because you would pass on your guilt and punishment to an imaginary deity.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
        • Topher

          The question is what was proven wrong in the Bible? And also, why do you keep trying to change the subject?

          October 30, 2013 at 5:34 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topher
          What subject am I changing, start at the top and read through the whole post, I do not see anything irrelevant to d..doG, original post. Are you trying to interpret again, desist you suck at it, no offence it is simply true. You are much like are departed friend Chad, the words in your bible book trump all other religions and knowledge in the world, how arrogant. You would think your mythical jesus/messiah would have shown up by now, being about 2000 years overdue.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:45 pm |
        • Topher

          Charm Quark

          "You are much like are departed friend Chad, the words in your bible book trump all other religions and knowledge in the world, how arrogant."

          Call it arrogant if you want, but if Christianity is true, it DOES trump everything else. And of course I believe it's true.

          "You would think your mythical jesus/messiah would have shown up by now, being about 2000 years overdue."

          True, I wish He'd come right now. But by His delay, He's showing you personally grace. You still have time to repent and trust Him. If He came right now, you and many of my loved ones would be in big trouble.

          October 30, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topher
          Not me pal, I have never bought into the idea of Christian sin so I am pure as new snow. No need for some mythical deity to take punishment for anyone, they don not exist outside of their story books.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:03 pm |
        • Topher

          Charm Quark

          Saying you don't believe in sin is foolish. It's just the word we use for breaking God's laws. So even if you don't believe in God you can still sin. Are you telling me you're perfect? You've never lied? Stolen? Said, 'Oh, my g-d!"? Ever looked at someone with lust?

          October 30, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topher
          By His delay He is showing you that you bought into a mythical load of BS that the hustlers are making a good living off of $$$$$.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:10 pm |
        • Topher

          Are there "Christian" hustlers? No doubt. But those heretics aren't getting my money and their existence doesn't disprove God in any way.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topher
          If lying is a "sin" every politician every is guilty. I follow the laws that my fellows have imposed on an orderly society, the very minor, traffic, offences I committed I paid for. That's it, pure as snow what you consider "sin" is of little import to me, you or religion will never be my judge, I refute you as being a false prophet.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
        • Topher

          Charm Quark

          "If lying is a "sin" every politician every is guilty."

          Probably. And me. And you. Who hasn't told at least one lie? And yet the Bible tells us that ALL liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:23 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topher
          Please attention, if I say your stupid fvcken story of god, jesus and the holy spirit is just a load of bullsh!t, you would consider a "sin", for me it is just a matter of free speech and in your world free will. You may think I will receive eternal punishment and I KNOW I will not, catch the difference. Now you be a good boy, scared straight.

          October 30, 2013 at 6:41 pm |
        • sam stone.

          really, gopher? are you really that irrational? if sin is breaking god's laws, and there is no god, then there is no sin. i take great comfort in the belief that not all christians are as delusional as you

          October 30, 2013 at 7:28 pm |
  15. Billy

    @L4H: (Regarding Mark) So what is considered by some to be the earliest Gospel account (where arguably other accounts draw from as a basis), we're just getting what a secretary supposedly made note of from another character that we know little about. OK, so far this sounds unlike most evidence we see that attempts to back up NT "spooky" physics.

    October 30, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      amen!!!

      October 30, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Billy : (Regarding Mark) So what is considered by some to be the earliest Gospel account

      I assume that with this you are acknowledging that Mark was written around 65 AD?

      October 30, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
      • Billy

        Some think that, others not. I would acknowledge that it is certainly possible.

        October 30, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Billy : Some think that, others not. I would acknowledge that it is certainly possible.

          Nor do I. However, I do consider it the most likely possibility at this time.

          October 30, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
        • Live4Him

          Topher, is that me?

          October 30, 2013 at 7:40 pm |
  16. Dyslexic doG

    If God is powerful enough to create the universe, don't you think he'd have a more foolproof way of getting his exact message across to future generations than this endlessly translated, edited, confused, modified, twisted, corrupted book of stories that is changed by religious power brokers to suit each generation?

    Wouldn't god's word be carved on the moon, unchangeable and for all to see? Wouldn't it be spoken unchanged by a species of animal? Wouldn't it be written microscopically on every stone or every tree? Wouldn't there be some space age material that had god's voice recorded, uncorrupted over the centuries and there for everyone to hear.

    Wouldn't there be parts of God's word that reflect computers or artificial intelligence or DNA or modern medicine or future medicine or electricity or space travel to other parts of this amazing universe he created? Wouldn't there be talk of gender and race equality? Wouldn't there be talk of Asia and Australia and the Americas and Europe and Africa?

    Instead the bible is limited to horses and carts and herbs and grain and swords and shields and misogyny and racism and slavery all set in the deserts of the middle east. The Bible is so obviously a product of bronze age man, you must be in denial to even argue that it is the word of god. There may or may not be a god or gods, but this book of bronze age voodoo and oppression has nothing to do with him, her or them.

    And stop it with this "not the word of god but words inspired by god" cop out. That just means it was written by greedy, evil men who got their way by claiming that god told them to do something. That's a self serving scam that should be scorned, especially by anyone claiming to love an omnipotent god. That scam is an abomination and an insult to your god ... as is the bible!

    October 30, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
    • Alias

      Reason and Logic!
      CHRISTIANS – RUN AWAY!

      October 30, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
      • Sue

        Exactly.

        October 30, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
  17. Doc Vestibule

    In 1707 John Mill of Oxford listed 30,000 variations in different NT texts, and at the beginning of the 21st century with further discoveries of manuscripts, the scholar Hermann von Soden listed some 45,000 variants in the N.T texts illustating how they were altered. Even in the 4th cent. Codex Sinaiticus, Professor Tishendorf, the discoverer, noted that it had been altered by at least three different scribes.

    The earliest fragment we have of the NT has been dated to around 140CE – though it is only 6 verses of John.
    The first complete manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, date from the 4th century.
    Other early copies include the Byzantine, Alexandrian and Caesarean texts – all of which contain various differences.

    Copyists couldn't help but inject their bias. For example, in John 1:18 'the only Son' becomes 'the only God'.
    One text says the Jews 'act evilly' when crucifying Jesus, but in the Codex Vaticanus, the Jews act 'in ignorance'.
    Early copies of the Gospel of Mark end rather abruptly – but later copies expand the story to include post-resurrection appearances by Jesus to his disciples.

    That the essentials of the text have remained essentially cosistent for so long is indeed nothing short of astounding – but unless one understands ancient Hebrew and Greek, one cannot know for certain what changes have been made over the millenia.
    To take the Bible as the literal, inerrant Word of God is to (at the very least) dismiss the many human hands and biases that have shaped the modern text.

    October 30, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @Doc Vestibule : In 1707 John Mill of Oxford listed 30,000 variations in different NT texts

      So, your point is that the NT texts were altered in medieval times. What difference does it make since today's versions are primarily based upon early manuscripts? Wouldn't that fact strengthen the argument that earlier manuscripts are most accurate?

      October 30, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        @L4H
        There are thousands of versions of the Bible.
        Which of the current versions, in your opinion, is the most accurate?

        October 30, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          and how the hell could you claim to know?!?!

          October 30, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          sorry Doc ... I meant how the hell could L4H claim to know what was accurate.

          October 30, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Doc Vestibule : There are thousands of versions of the Bible. Which of the current versions, in your opinion, is the most accurate?

          The original language versions – of course. I use the following to ensure accuracy:

          Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
          Nestle Aland 26th Edition Greek New Testament

          October 30, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
        • Little Timmy

          I might trust Nestle to not mess up Ovaltine, but a Bible?

          October 30, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Dyslexic doG : and how the hell could you claim to know?!?!

          Computer comparisons between all the early texts provides the evidence.

          October 30, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
        • Makin Copies

           

          October 30, 2013 at 3:54 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          אנשים יהודיים מכירים את הספר התנ"ך כ/כפי שהיסטוריה חשודה שלא מכווונת להילקח באופן מילולי. הם צריכים לדעת, זה הספר שלהם

          October 30, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
        • Sue

          Furthermore, those many copies were produced by humans. Why can't a "god" produce a modern text, or perhaps even use the modern internet???

          Yes, you should draw the appropriate conclusion from that. Christian god obviously does not exist.

          October 30, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Did you miss the little bit in there about how the earliest complete manuscript was found to have been altered by at least 3 different scribes?

        October 30, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Doc Vestibule : Did you miss the little bit in there about how the earliest complete manuscript was found to have been altered by at least 3 different scribes

          You see, the phrase 'earliest complete' is misleading. Complete how? Of course – having all the OT (39 books) and NT (27 books) in one volume that hasn't deteriorated with age. Why should aging (i.e. how long a material takes to break down) be a factor in your analysis if you're looking for accuracy? Shouldn't you only considering the earliest rather than the later (but more complete)?

          October 30, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
        • Sue

          Furthermore, those copies were produced by humans. Why can't a "god" produce a modern text, or perhaps even use the modern internet???

          Yes, you should draw the appropriate conclusion from that. Christian god obviously does not exist.

          October 30, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Sue : Why can't a "god" produce a modern text, or perhaps even use the modern internet???

          How could any god take such an action without revealing its existence beyond the limits of faith?

          October 30, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Lie4It, what does "revealing its existence beyond the limits of faith" mean and why would that matter?

          October 30, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          L4H
          And if any god would want to prove it exists, why would it not reveal itself? Why would god depend on mouldy old supernatural gospels for the believers to have "faith" in, belief without proof? Why so many gods and creation myths, are they all the "truth", of course they are to the believers, strange fruit?

          October 30, 2013 at 5:04 pm |
  18. Live4Him

    @Live4Him : And exactly HOW did they determine it was false by 'paleographic analysis'? Do you know?
    @ME II : I don't, no. Do you know how they verified it?

    Actually, yes, I do.

    @ME II : It looks to me like their original claim was based on 20 out of 169 letters. Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

    Yes, that sounds questionable to me – until you find out that the vast majority of the DSS were identified by this same method. Specifically, you take the known letter along with their placement within the manuscript along with the estimated number of letters per line. This allows you to eliminate the majority of all known manuscripts (regardless of which fragment it is).

    When you combine this method with the known letters (and their rarity) on the fragment, it becomes even more probable that it is from Mark. In the Hebrew/Aramaic language for that era, finding words with two 's' (as in 'ss') is about as likely as finding words with two 'z' (as in 'zz') in today's English language. These two letters (i.e. 'ss') occurs in two different contexts : genealogical records and a specific geographical location – as in Lake Gennessart (sp?). The fragment didn't appear to be a genealogical record, based upon the identifiable letters in the fragment (i.e. none of the letter sequences appeared to fit the genealogical word order of 'Tom begat Sam' sequence). However, it is possibility to fit it into Gospel of Mark.

    So, you are left with two possibilities: it is a fragment of the Gospel of Mark and it is a fragment from an unknown manuscript.

    However, when you tie in other known facts, including the following:
    1) Source of these expensive manuscripts – possibly the temple library
    2) Other fragments that also appear to be from NT manuscripts

    And ask the following question: Why would anyone have an expensive library stored away in jars that contain scripture, religious texts, and government records (i.e. deed transfers)? Wouldn't a religious society desire to keep track of so-called heretic teachings?

    October 30, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      supposition, theory, speculation and a whole lot of wishful thinking ... the foundation for your religion.

      October 30, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
    • ME II

      (reposted from original thread...If you restart the thread, at least say so in the original.)

      ME II
      @Live4Him,
      According to one of the links from the wikipedia article, http://www.stefan-enste.de/7Q5DetailEngl.htm, the original claim was made on an improperly read letter, Iota, misread as Ny.

      "It is quite clear that the vertical stroke in line 2 is the letter Iota. Only the discussion whether 7Q5 is a part of the gospel of Mark made some people question this Iota. The reason is clear: They need a Ny in this place, the Iota-Alpha-sequence would make their desired identification impossible. "

      IE wishful thinking

      October 30, 2013 at 3:55 pm |
    • ME II

      (also reposted)

      ME II
      @Live4Him,
      "And exactly HOW did they determine it was false by 'paleographic analysis'? Do you know? Bet you don't."

      I don't, no. Do you know how they verified it?

      "The majority of scholars have not been convinced by O'Callaghan's and Thiede's identification[1][2] and it is 'now virtually universally rejected'.[3][4]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7Q5)

      It looks to me like their original claim was based on 20 out of 169 letters. Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

      October 30, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
      • ME II

        @Live4Him,
        You didn't address the "virtually universally rejected" bit.

        October 30, 2013 at 3:58 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @ME II : the original claim was made on an improperly read letter, Iota, misread as Ny ... IE wishful thinking

        I agree that one side or the other has some wishful thinking. However, I'm looking for solid facts to reject the claim (i.e. fragment is from Mark), rather than wishful interpretations.

        @ME II : It looks to me like their original claim was based on 20 out of 169 letters

        The original claim wasn't based upon just 20 letters, but their relative placement to each other as well AND a unique combination of letter (i.e. ss).

        @ME II : You didn't address the "virtually universally rejected" bit.

        Why fall for a logic fallacy. Popularity doesn't make facts (i.e. the universe revolves around the earth – NOT!). All I care about is the facts. And the facts in this issue are as follows:

        1) Scientifically accepted practice for identifying DSS source
        2) Unique combination of letters limiting the possibilities to the two following:
        a) Possible match to Mark using objectionable letter identification
        b) Possible match to unknown source using objectionable letter identification

        October 30, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
      • ME II

        @Live4Him,
        "However, I'm looking for solid facts to reject the claim (i.e. fragment is from Mark), rather than wishful interpretations."

        (repost)
        According to one of the links from the wikipedia article, http://www.stefan-enste.de/7Q5DetailEngl.htm, the original claim was made on an improperly read letter, Iota, misread as Ny.

        "It is quite clear that the vertical stroke in line 2 is the letter Iota. Only the discussion whether 7Q5 is a part of the gospel of Mark made some people question this Iota. The reason is clear: They need a Ny in this place, the Iota-Alpha-sequence would make their desired identification impossible. "

        ****

        "The original claim wasn't based upon just 20 letters, but their relative placement to each other as well AND a unique combination of letter (i.e. ss)."

        Okay, 20 letters and their arrangement, still seems weak, by itself.

        "This allows you to eliminate the majority of all known manuscripts (regardless of which fragment it is)."

        Why limit to known manuscripts?

        "These two letters (i.e. 'ss') occurs in two different contexts : genealogical records and a specific geographical location – as in Lake Gennessart (sp?)."

        1) The letters in question appear to be "nn" not "ss".
        2) "The sequence ννησ can be also found in the word εγεννησεν ("begot"), which was the original suggestion as to its identi[]ty." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7Q5)

        ***

        "Why fall for a logic fallacy. Popularity doesn't make facts"

        Translating ancient texts is as much an art as a science, i.e. interpretation. It is not based solely on science, else we wouldn't be arguing about what 20 characters on a ~2000 year old text "mean".

        ***

        "1) Scientifically accepted practice for identifying DSS source"

        What is that specifically? cite your source for this accepted practice.

        "2) Unique combination of letters limiting the possibilities to the two following:
        a) Possible match to Mark using objectionable letter identification
        b) Possible match to unknown source using objectionable letter identification"

        I'm no Biblical scholar, but these seem like relevant facts:

        "Further counterarguments
        To make the identification of the fragment with Mark 6:52-53, O'Callaghan had to substi[]tute the letter δ with a τ in line 3, a substi[]tution most scholars do not accept, although it is not without precedent in the ancient world.[7]
        In the line 4 the words επι την γην ("to the land") from Mark do not fit inside, because the length of line do not allow it, a variant which is not attested elsewhere.[7]
        The identification of the last letter in line 2 with nu does not fit into the pattern of this Greek letter as it is clearly written in line 4.[8]
        The computer search performed by Thiede assumed that all the disputed letter identifications made by O'Callaghan were correct, an assumption which, in fact, is rejected by scholars.
        A similar search performed by scholar Daniel Wallace, which allowed other identifications for the disputed letters, found sixteen matches.[7]
        A computer search performed with the undisputed letters of the fragment 7Q5 do not find the text Mk 6,52-53, because the undisputed letter τ in line 3 does not fit to this text.[9]"

        (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7Q5)

        October 30, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
      • ME II

        sorry meant to highlight the last two:

        A similar search performed by scholar Daniel Wallace, which allowed other identifications for the disputed letters, found sixteen matches.[7]
        A computer search performed with the undisputed letters of the fragment 7Q5 do not find the text Mk 6,52-53, because the undisputed letter τ in line 3 does not fit to this text.[9]"

        (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7Q5)

        October 30, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
  19. Live4Him

    @Marie : So what were His last words, L4H???

    I would guess the following would be among Christ's last words:

    Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in ?a? the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

    October 30, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
    • Reality # 2

      But were these (Matt 28: 16-20) Jesus' last words????

      According to those contemporary NT scholars who have thoroughly studied all the scriptures from the time period, they were not. For example:

      From Professor Gerd Ludemann in his book, "Jesus After 2000 Years":

      " The description of Jesus's appearance is minimal, as attention is focused on the content of Jesus'
      message to the Eleven. Luedemann notes that "the historical yield is extremely meager." He accepts the early tradition
      that various disciples had visionary experiences, most probably located in Galilee, and that these experiences led to the
      founding of "a community which preached the resurrection and exaltation of Jesus as the Messiah and/or the Son of Man
      among their Jewish contemporaries." pp. 255f.]

      See also: http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb018.html

      October 30, 2013 at 3:17 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Reality # 2 : According to those contemporary NT scholars who have thoroughly studied all the scriptures from the time period, they were not.

        So, you prefer an opinion piece written 2000 years after the event over those writing shortly after the event itself? Why?

        October 30, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
        • Reality # 2

          Why? Read the following and discover why.

          o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.htm – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.

          2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
          – a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication–

          30-60 CE Passion Narrative
          40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
          50-60 1 Thessalonians
          50-60 Philippians
          50-60 Galatians
          50-60 1 Corinthians
          50-60 2 Corinthians
          50-60 Romans
          50-60 Philemon
          50-80 Colossians
          50-90 Signs Gospel
          50-95 Book of Hebrews
          50-120 Didache
          50-140 Gospel of Thomas
          50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
          50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
          65-80 Gospel of Mark
          70-100 Epistle of James
          70-120 Egerton Gospel
          70-160 Gospel of Peter
          70-160 Secret Mark
          70-200 Fayyum Fragment
          70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
          73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
          80-100 2 Thessalonians
          80-100 Ephesians
          80-100 Gospel of Matthew
          80-110 1 Peter
          80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
          80-130 Gospel of Luke
          80-130 Acts of the Apostles
          80-140 1 Clement
          80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
          80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
          80-250 Christian Sibyllines
          90-95 Apocalypse of John
          90-120 Gospel of John
          90-120 1 John
          90-120 2 John
          90-120 3 John
          90-120 Epistle of Jude
          93 Flavius Josephus
          100-150 1 Timothy
          100-150 2 Timothy
          100-150 T-itus
          100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
          100-150 Secret Book of James
          100-150 Preaching of Peter
          100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
          100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
          100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
          100-160 2 Peter

           4. Jesus Database, http://www.faithfutures.o-rg/JDB/intro.html –"The JESUS DATABASE is an online a-nnotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
          5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bis-sar24.htm
          6. The Jesus Seminar, http://en.wikipedia.o-rg/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
          7. http://www.biblicalartifacts.com/items/785509/item785509biblicalartifacts.html – books on the health and illness during the time of the NT
          8. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
          9.The Gn-ostic Jesus
          (Part One in a Two-Part Series on A-ncient and Modern G-nosticism)
          by Douglas Gro-othuis: http://www.equip.o-rg/articles/g-nosticism-and-the-g-nostic-jesus/
          10. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
          Presented on March 18, 1994
          ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
          11. The Jesus Database- newer site:
          wiki.faithfutures.o-rg/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
          12. Jesus Database with the example of S-u-pper and Eucharist:
          faithfutures.o-rg/JDB/jdb016.html
          13. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
          mtio.com/articles/bis-sar24.htm
          13. http://www.textweek.com/mtlk/jesus.htmm- Historical Jesus Studies
          14. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
          15. D-iseases in the Bible:
          http://books.google.com/books/about/The_d-iseases_of_the_Bible.html?id=C1YZAAAAYAAJ

          16. Religion on Line (6000 articles on the history of religion, churches, theologies,
          theologians, ethics, etc.
          religion-online.o-rg/

           17. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT ntgateway.com/
          18. Writing the New Testament- e-xisting copies, o-ral tradition etc.
          ntgateway.com/
          19. JD Crossan's c-onclusions about the a-uthencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the c-onclusions of other NT e-xege-tes in the last 200 years:
          http://wiki.faithfutures.o-rg/index.p-hp?t-itle=Crossan_Inventory
          20. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
          21. Luke and Josephus- was there a c-onnection?
          in-fidels.o-rg/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
          22. NT and beyond time line:
          pbs.o-rg/empires/pe-terandpaul/history/timeline/
          23. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
          harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
          24. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
          25. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
          27. The books of the following : Professors Gerd Ludemann, Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
          28. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
          29. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus

          October 30, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Reality # 2 : Read the following and discover why.

          Okay, so you prefer to follow the opinion of a hundred contemporary NT scholars over those who lived in that period. Why do you prefer opinions over facts?

          October 30, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
        • Shadowflash1522

          Let's say a car accident happens in the street outside. You, the police officer, have to determine what happened.

          10 people come forward saying they witnessed the accident. Each of the eyewitnesses tells a different story. The differences may be small, such as whether the car was dark red or maroon, or they may be large and of legal importance. You could take their word for it, but then you would have to reconcile the conflicting accounts.

          This (imaginary, well-funded) precinct also retains the services of an expert computer programmer and a physicist who specializes in vehicular collisions. They construct a simulation based on the wreckage which offers a plausible scenario for what actually occurred. You could base your report upon this data, but there is still a chance that the simulation is inaccurate.

          Which do you use?

          October 30, 2013 at 3:58 pm |
        • Reality # 2

          Live4Him,

          Did you not see the following references?

          Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
          – a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication and a discussion of each by clicking on each individual scripture. Rigorous historic reviews of said doc-uments can be found at http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html. Get back to us when you finish.

          30-60 CE Passion Narrative
          40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
          50-60 1 Thessalonians
          50-60 Philippians
          50-60 Galatians
          50-60 1 Corinthians
          50-60 2 Corinthians
          50-60 Romans
          50-60 Philemon
          50-80 Colossians
          50-90 Signs Gospel
          50-95 Book of Hebrews
          50-120 Didache
          50-140 Gospel of Thomas
          50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
          50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
          65-80 Gospel of Mark
          70-100 Epistle of James
          70-120 Egerton Gospel
          70-160 Gospel of Peter
          70-160 Secret Mark
          70-200 Fayyum Fragment
          70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
          73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
          80-100 2 Thessalonians
          80-100 Ephesians
          80-100 Gospel of Matthew
          80-110 1 Peter
          80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
          80-130 Gospel of Luke
          80-130 Acts of the Apostles
          80-140 1 Clement
          80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
          80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
          80-250 Christian Sibyllines
          90-95 Apocalypse of John
          90-120 Gospel of John
          90-120 1 John
          90-120 2 John
          90-120 3 John
          90-120 Epistle of Jude
          93 Flavius Josephus
          100-150 1 Timothy
          100-150 2 Timothy
          100-150 T-itus
          100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
          100-150 Secret Book of James
          100-150 Preaching of Peter
          100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
          100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
          100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
          100-160 2 Peter

          October 31, 2013 at 12:09 am |
        • Reality # 2

          Live4Him,

          Did you not see the following references?

          Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
          – a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication and a discussion of each by clicking on each individual scripture. Rigorous historic reviews of said doc-uments can be found at http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html. Get back to us when you finish.

          October 31, 2013 at 12:09 am |
    • HotAirAce

      Lie4It, the most significant word in your post above is "guess." You, nor anyone else, knows what the alleged desert dwelling dude known as jesus said. And you don't have any evidence for any god, for a divine jesus or for what any character in The Babble allegedly said.

      October 31, 2013 at 12:18 am |
  20. Lionly Lamb

    What happens can never be changed yet what changes is ever happening given one's chances for changing...

    October 30, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
    • ?

      Toke up LL, you almost but not quite made sense.....

      October 30, 2013 at 3:50 pm |
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