Opinion by the Rev. James Martin, special to CNN
(CNN) - With Easter approaching, and the movie “Son of God” playing in wide release, you’re going to hear a lot about Jesus these days.
You may hear revelations from new books that purport to tell the “real story” about Jesus, opinions from friends who have discovered a “secret” on the Web about the son of God, and airtight arguments from co-workers who can prove he never existed.
Beware of most of these revelations; many are based on pure speculation and wishful thinking. Much of what we know about Jesus has been known for the last 2,000 years.
Still, even for devout Christian there are surprises to be found hidden within the Gospels, and thanks to advances in historical research and archaeological discoveries, more is known about his life and times.
With that in mind, here are five things you probably didn't know about Jesus.
1.) Jesus came from a nowhere little town.
Nearly all modern-day archaeologists agree the town of Nazareth had only 200 to 400 people. Jesus’ hometown is mentioned nowhere in either the Old Testament or the Talmud, which notes dozens of other towns in the area.
In fact, in the New Testament it is literally a joke.
In the Gospel of John, when a man named Nathanael hears the messiah is “Jesus of Nazareth,” he asks, “Can anything good come from Nazareth?” He’s dissing Jesus’ crummy backwater town.
2.) Jesus probably didn’t know everything.
This is a thorny theological question. If Jesus is divine, wouldn’t he know all things? (Indeed, on several occasions Jesus predicts his death and resurrection.)
On the other hand, if he had a human consciousness, he needed to be taught something before he could know it. The Gospel of Luke says that when Jesus was a young man he “progressed” in wisdom. That means he learned things. (Otherwise how would he “progress”?)
In the Gospel of Mark, Jesus initially refuses to heal the daughter of a non-Jewish woman, saying rather sharply, “It is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.”
But when she replies that even the dogs get the crumbs from the table, Jesus softens, and he heals her daughter. He seems to be learning that his ministry extends beyond the Jewish people.
3.) Jesus was tough.
From age 12 to 30, Jesus worked in Nazareth as a carpenter. “Is not this the carpenter?” say the astonished crowds when he begins to preach.
The word used for Jesus’ profession in the original Greek is tekton. The traditional translation is “carpenter.” But most contemporary scholars say it’s more likely a general craftsman; some even translate it as “day laborer.”
A tekton would have made doors, tables, lamp stands and plows. But he probably also built stone walls and helped with house construction.
It was tough work that meant lugging tools, wood and stones all over Galilee. Jesus doesn’t simply stride onto the world stage after having dreamily examined a piece of wood when the mood suited him. For 18 years, he worked—and worked hard.
4.) Jesus needed “me time.”
The Gospels frequently speak of Jesus’ need to “withdraw” from the crowds, and even his disciples.
Today by the Sea of Galilee, where Jesus carried out much of his ministry, you can see how close the towns were, and how natural it would have been for the enthusiastic crowds to “press” in on him, as the Gospels describe.
There’s even a cave on the shoreline, not far from Capernaum, his base of operations, where he may have prayed.
It’s called the “Eremos Cave,” from the word for “desolate” or “solitary,” from which we get the word “hermit.” Even though Jesus was the son of God, he needed time alone in prayer with the father.
5.) Jesus didn’t want to die.
As he approaches his death, and prays hard in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus says, “Remove this cup.” It’s a blunt prayer addressed to the father, whom he affectionately calls Abba. He doesn’t want to die.
Unlike the way some Christians portray Jesus as courting death, and even desiring it, like any human being, the idea of death is terrifying. “My soul is sorrowful even unto death,” he says.
In other words, “I’m so sad that it feels like I’m going to die.” But once Jesus realizes that this is somehow the will of the father, he assents to death, even on a cross.
It’s natural to want to know as much as we can about Jesus; that’s one reason I wrote my new book. But beware of the more outlandish claims about the son of God (he fathered children, he was married to Mary Magdalene, he spent time in India and so on.)
Many of these claims tend to project our own desires on a man who will always remain somewhat elusive, hard to fully understand and impossible to pin down.
In the end, as theologians like to say, Jesus is not so much a problem to be solved as a mystery to be pondered.
The Rev. James Martin is a Jesuit priest, editor of America magazine and author of the new book "Jesus: A Pilgrimage" (HarperOne). The views expressed in this column belong to Martin.
I don't try to analyze Jesus or His life too much. I simply lean on my belief and faith in Him that there will be a much better place for me when my time here is done.
Sensible and logical people should not be placing their faith in a person who might never have existed, and if he did, was a a fully human teacher of ethics. They also should not place their faith in the existence of an imaginary afterlife, the concept of which is based on wishful thinking.
The sixth thing I don't know, when a child did He tell His playmates He was the son of God, not his father?
Number 5.... Jesus did'nt want to die, I can understand that, what I dont understand is why God did'nt get up on the cross instead? Any other parent out their that would'nt give their own life to save their own childs? God created us and, by our own human nature, we did what we told not too do!! Why punish us for that, to send your only son to die for us?! Madness..
I am so impressed with this article. The Kenites (Qayin-=kah`-yin; strongs concordance#7014 the same as 7013(with a play upon the affinity to 7069 which means horn .Bibilically the word HORN- is symbolic of POWER., not the english word literal horns. means: Kajin. Sons of Cain, Cain is the offspring of Satan(Lucifer the cherub , the former protector of Yahvehs Mercy seat. He had all precious stones, and happens to be the most beautiful of all the angels, But most of the salt *cough*Cough* of the earth believes he is painted red, with a pitchfork,and a pointed tail, and most think he is ugly but you’d be Mistaken just like that priest of Baal that posted this article, I KNOW Christ Jesus we are very close, And He is not at all like this priest of Baal says. That priest of Baal does not know Him at all. Its all some fairytale just like the story being the eating of an apple being the sin in the Garden of God.
Those Sons of Cain have succeeded in totally deceiving a whole lot of so- called Christians and if Muslims are so into peace then why do you fight warring against different sects?
No one person is more peaceful than The Prince Of Peace! no one
and in case you didnt know God is keeping score, There will be a day very soon where most will have to account for your actions and what youve said against the person that Loves you the Most and no one with be getting pity or mercy from HIM consider yourselves warned. you are without excuse and you are the only one that will be standing in front of God with no other person to help you out. i am not a judge but God Is,
As I understand it, there are 4 or 5 books missing from the Bible. Would you please send me the names of them? Thank you ever so much.
Hello, I believe what you are referring to is the books of the Apocrypha, and there are 18 of them. Please allow me to answer your question in this format: We have quite an in-depth Bible study called The Apocrypha on our site, it should answer all your questions. But I will supply a brief excerpt from that study here, and then if you decide to go deeper for a more complete answer you can click over and read the rest of The Apocrypha study. Naturally, feel free to send a follow-up question if we have been unclear on any certain point.
An excerpt from The Apocrypha; Watchmen Bible Study Group:
What is the Apocrypha? It is a class of Biblical books that are not included in most Bible cannons. They are books that bridge the gap between the Old Testament writings which ended in 374 B.C. with the book of Malachi, and the first New Testament events written of in the Gospel of Matthew. (The Gospel of Mark was the first written of the four Gospels in, say, the A.D.60′s. And 1st Thessalonians was the first New Testament book, written in A.D. 52). The books of the Apocrypha were probably originally penned in-between the first three centuries B.C. and the first century A.D. The books of the Apocrypha were written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.
To avoid confusion in this matter, we begin this study by stating that we shall only be referring to post Old Testament era writings herein, and will not concern ourselves with any New Testament writings. All Bibles in their Old Testament contain the 39 books of the Hebrew Old Testament (Genesis – Malachi), and they are set and sound, Divinely Inspired words from our Lord God to us through the Prophets and Apostles. There is no debate or controversy regarding the reliability of the original 39 books of the Hebrew Old Testament Cannon, neither with Jews nor Christians.
The Old Testament Canonized books
The Old Testament of the King James Bible and the Hebrew Bible are composed of the same 39 books, although in the Hebrew Bible (The Tanach) they only number 24, due to the doubling up of books such as 1st and 2nd Samuel, Ezra and Nehemiah, and the 12 Minor Prophets being rendered as one long book…but the Scriptures are the same. In the original Hebrew manuscripts from which we get our King James Old Testament there were no breaks between certain books such as 1st and 2nd Samuel…, and Ezra and Nehemiah are rendered as one book, but the content is the same, only a different number of the same books. We shall not consider this any further, as it has nothing to do with our current topic and would in itself be another study.
The Apocrypha or Dueterocanonical books
However, there are 18 books recognized as Apocryphal or Dueterocanical by the Protestant, Angelican, Roman Catholic, and Orthodox communities. These books were written roughly between the first three centuries B.C. and the first century A.D. The inclusion of some or all of them into the different Bible versions varies. i.e., The Catholic Bible includes 16 of these books, the Orthodox use 18, and the Protestant/Angelican include 18 of these Apocrypha books in it’s Old Testament Cannon. But even the number of these vary in the older printings of some of these Bibles. Our King James Version Bibles do not contain the Apocryphal books today, however, they were included in the original King James Bible of 1611, called the Authorized Version (A.V).
Portions of some of the Apocryphal books were found among the dead sea scrolls: Starting in 1947, in the caves of the Qumran region about 14 miles East of Jerusalem, there were found in eleven separate caves, approximately 900 Manuscripts in some 25,000 pieces. 225 of these are Biblical Scrolls with the text of the Hebrew Old Testament books. These Scrolls were written from about 250 B.C. through A.D. 68. In addition to those 225 Biblical manuscripts there was recovered three Apocryphal Scriptures: ‘Tobit’, ‘Ben Sira’ (also known as ‘Sirach’ or ‘Ecclesiasticus’), and ‘Baruch 6′ (also known as ‘Letter of Jeremiah’). And though not discovered, but through the other writings found, it is most likely that the residents of Qumran also considered the ‘Book of Enoch1′, and ‘Jubilies’ as Scripture.
So suffice it to say that there is much disagreement as to whether the books termed ‘Apocryphal’ should be treated as Divinely Inspired Scripture, ie: directly from God Himself, or whether they should just be utilized for their historic content, written by men who were living during the Biblical periods and showing the mood of the religious movement as God’s children progressed from Judaism into Christianity with the birth, life, crucifixion, and resurrection of the Messiah Jesus Christ.
Once again, it must be stressed that the existence and inclusion or exclusion of these other writings (apocryphal) should in no way take away from your mind the validity of the 39 books that are the original Hebrew Cannon of the Old Testament. These 39 books, or 24 by Hebrew reasoning in the Tanach (Genesis through Malachi) are included in ALL Bible Old Testaments, and come down through history with unchallenged integrity by both Jews and Christians alike. These were safeguarded through the THE MASSORAH.
(End of excerpt)
I know Granpop, you gotta kinda watch out for a guy who quotes himself – just kidding, it was the best way for me to answer your question. I hope that helps you sir, and thank-you for helping us in that you filled out our survey form at the bottom of our Homepage. We would ask any others to please do the same. We are seeking to bring the best Bible study site we can to our readers, and feedback is an important key. God bless you, and feel free to follow-up with any unanswered questions you may have after you read the study.
So, because God appeared to change His mind on a number of occasions in the Old Testament, is that proof that God was also learning, Rev. Martin? Preposterous!
Reblogged this on 7IS.
Those were brilliant!!
You and I have a very different idea of brilliant.
Posted this in response to a question elsewhere within this forum but I thought of sharing it with you all for the following reasons: 1. Informational of what the Quran says about Jesus (Peace and Blessings upon him) – this is important for my fellow Christians. 2. For our Atheist and Agnostic friends who cling on "inaccuracies" in the Bible and the whole concept of trinity (which a lot of Christians struggle with) – After reading those verses, you shouldn't take the Quran lightly in your endeavor to "save" those believing souls!
Thank you for this question. In a nutshell, The Quran has a unique perspective on Jesus and on resurrection! Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace and Blessings be upon him and his mother, Mary) was a special prophet and that he was not crucified nor was he killed. We believe that he was taken to heaven by God and that he will return one day to this earth. We believe on his return that this planet will be very peaceful and that marks the end of this life (his return is one of the major signs of the nearness of the day of judgement). We believe his return will be upon the spread of the message that the Anti-Christ will carry through. We believe in all the miracles of Jesus (Peace and Blessings be upon him) in addition to more miracles that the Quran mentions. Mohammed (Peace and Blessings be upon him), the Prophet of Islam emphasized that Muslims don't do what nations before did with their Prophets in making them associates of ALLAH (God). Below are some of the verses of the Quran addressing and explaining Jesus' status in Islam to ponder about.
Same God, Same Message!
They say, "Be Jews or Christians [so] you will be guided." Say, "Rather, [we follow] the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, and he was not of the polytheists."(135) Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (136) So if they believe in the same as you believe in, then they have been [rightly] guided; but if they turn away, they are only in dissension, and Allah will be sufficient for you against them. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing. (137) Quran Chapter 2
Jesus with a higher degree!
Those messengers – some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in degree. And We gave Jesus, the Son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Pure Spirit. If Allah had willed, those [generations] succeeding them would not have fought each other after the clear proofs had come to them. But they differed, and some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. And if Allah had willed, they would not have fought each other, but Allah does what He intends.(253) Quran Chapter 2
Jesus Raised to Heaven!
[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. (55) Quran Chapter 3
Jesus is like Adam!
Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (59) Quran Chapter 3
Jesus was not Crucified nor Killed!
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. (157) Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.(158) Quran Chapter 3
Quran and Trinity!
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (171) Quran Chapter 4
Jesus' Message is Guidance!
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (46) Quran Chapter 5
On Trinity Again and Disbelief
They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah – Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.(72) They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (73) So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.(74) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. (75) Say, "Do you worship besides Allah that which holds for you no [power of] harm or benefit while it is Allah who is the Hearing, the Knowing?" (76) Quran Chapter 5
Jesus Miracles in the Quran
[Be warned of] the Day when Allah will assemble the messengers and say, "What was the response you received?" They will say, "We have no knowledge. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen" (109)[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." (110) Quran Chapter 5
Jesus Never said he was the Son of God (According to the Quran)
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. (116) I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (117) If You should punish them – indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them – indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.(118) Quran Chapter 5
More on what Jesus (Peace and Blessings be Upon him) Said
[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. (30) And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive (31) And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant. (32) And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive." (33) That is Jesus, the son of Mary – the word of truth about which they are in dispute. (34) It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. (35)[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path." (36) Then the factions differed [concerning Jesus] from among them, so woe to those who disbelieved – from the scene of a tremendous Day. (37) How [clearly] they will hear and see the Day they come to Us, but the wrongdoers today are in clear error. (38) Quran Chapter 19 (Mary)
Alright, so you're quoting from YOUR scriptures, instead of the bible. How nice. Are we to take the Q'uran as human writings that may hold valuable lessons for the rest of us, or are we to take it as literally true: that God took Jesus to Heaven; that the Prophet rode a horse to Heaven.
It's a collection of human writings. Our world is full of works of fiction. This is simply another one.
I am RIGHTLY so quoting from the Quran! I urge you to go back through my comments in which I established the following (comments in this article and in another, Five things you didn't know about Jesus):
1. The Quran is a book of 600 Pages that has no contradictions whatsoever. The Quran challenge that I presented was revealed 1400 years ago and humanity is yet to find contradictions within it (unlike other scriptures).
2. The Quran is continually revealing of miracles. Unlike other books that seem to be outdated (according to some commentators on this forum), the Quran encourages research in this life and is full of scientific evidences that have been discovered only in the 20th and the 21st centuries.
I promise you will learn A LOT from the Quran and will quench the thirst you and others have about this life. Now, based on the above, I proceed to quote from the Quran. Can you however share with us how you concluded that the Quran is a "collection of human writings". Any examples to enlighten us with why you came up with this assertion and conclusion based on your knowledge about the Quran and the writings therein?
Quran has many contradictions, inconsistencies and misses. I don't have time to go through all. However, based on your repeating invoke of "peace" and your general message, can you tell us (shortly please) if Islam is indeed a religion of peace?
Would you please get back and post here a SINGE contradiction when you have the time? As for PEACE, watch this video to get an idea!
Summary of who a Muslim is (includes references to peace).
Sorry I don't have time to watch videos but I take it the answer is yes, Islam is a religion of peace. Well, I don't know you but here is what one of the biggest specialists in Quran (Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini) had to say about this subject:
"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does that mean that Muslim should sit back until they are devoured by ? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter their armies. Does this mean sitting back until they overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender ? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to paradise, which can be opened only for holy warriors!
There are hundreds of other psalms and hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."
How do you comment on this?
No problem. Those videos are 3 – 4 minutes long and they are targeted to the issue/discussion at hand. I am very selective of the videos/content that I share with you to address the issue being discussed (By no means are those videos or what I write a waste of time and irrelevant to what we are discussing). I hope you will find the time to watch them to get an idea of how Islam is a religion of Peace. Thank you for your comment and I am glad to finally address a concern of someone who knows something about Islam in this forum. Your concern is corroborated by that of 80% of Muslims! That is right, 80% of Muslims don't consider this person as a "specialist" of the Quran because he is not. He is actually viewed as a deviant individual who used religion to mobilize an armed force to fulfill his own agenda and yearning to expand and rule.
It is to no surprise that the 1979 Iranian revolution had an "Islamic" stamp on it (for those who don't know, Khomeini's teachings instigated that revolution). For us Americans, we know what happened during that revolution. Factions who follow Khomeini's opinions are in Iran and Hizbullah in Lebanon add to that Alwit-es in Syria headed by Bashar Al-Asad. The verses he used to come up with this opinion are taken out of context (Quran REAL specialists confined the etiquette of war based on the verses in the Quran and the context in which they were revealed, obviously Khomeini chose to oppose them all). With that being said, I urge you to first watch the videos above and if you have any followup questions, I would be happy to address them here. Hope this helps!
In addition to the videos above, this particular video has a response to many other charges that an Atheist presented against Islam. The response addresses those and tackles the topic of "Islam a Religion of Peace". I hope you find the time and clear some of the misconceptions you might have about Islam..
Before going any further, do you have some prove to back your claim that 80% of Muslims view Khomeini as a deviant individual and not a Quran specialist?
Khomeini is an inspiration to a faction of the Shi-te branch of Islam. Not all Shi-tes follow him or adhere to his teachings. Only some of them. To Sunni's he is a deviant outright because he teaches things that are un-Islamic. My proof for the 80% figure is an excerpt from Wikipedia shown below:
"Sunni and Shia Islam are the two major denominations of Islam. The demographic breakdown between the two denominations is difficult to assess and varies by source, but a good approximation is that greater than 75% of the world's Muslims are Sunni and 10–20% are Shia, with most Shias belonging to the Twelver tradition and the rest divided between several other groups."
Please notice that not all Shia's are followers of Khomeini. Also, for the record, Iran that today has the largest population of followers was just 50 years ago Sunni majority. Khomeini's revolution and armed operations destroyed Sunni Mosques, Persecuted people for just being a Sunni and enforced a strict Shia system within Iran. There is a portion of Iran (Ahwaz) that is dominantly Arab speaking and those held tight to their Sunni heritage. They are persecuted nowadays nonetheless. Does this make sense?
No, sorry. You based your claim solely on demographics and sectarian rivalry not on actual people opinions and qualifications. Just because he is in the minority sect doesn't make him any less qualified for his job. I'm pretty sure that, being in minority (and a bitter rival one), there will be more people willing to certify against him from the other side, but that doesn't mean that's the real truth.
If you contend that what I shared with you is not a proof, then the burden of proof lies on you to show that there exist Sunnis who consider Khomeini as a specialist in Quran! The fact that this person preaches concepts of violence and defies logic in his preaching is sufficient (both of which are not in Islam and contrary to what Islam preaches). This man contends that the family of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) are special, infallible which also contradicts the essence of this religion. The Quran says the following about our beloved Prophet let alone his family (Peace and Blessings be upon him and his family):
Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful. (144) Quran Chapter 3
I know what you are hearing might be a shock to you (especially if you have considered him to be a specialist in Quran and based your beliefs on that premise). I would certainly go to the source, the Quran and see for myself if I were in your Shoes!
I fail to see why the burden of proof is on me because you couldn't prove your claim. You have a point if you show us that, not 80%, but 50% of Khomeini's own people (Shia) see him as incompetent. We are not talking about a few people here but about 180 million and almost whole big nations, like Iran
Point already made! You are quoting someone as a "specialist" of Quran who is considered by AT LEAST 80% not to be and incompetent as a matter of fact. This individual doesn't represent Islam (if that is what you are trying to imply) and he is ent-itled as anyone else is to their opinion. I can only refute any claims he made and hence refute your quotes. While we are not talking about a small population, please consider the original text (Quran) and don't use one man's opinion as a means to interpret the religion itself (this is what you tried to imply by quoting him). Check the videos above, don't waste your time and attempt to prove that Islam is not a religion of Peace (I contended that it is and I shared videos with you – it is your turn to show otherwise if you still believe so). If you have based your opinion solely on the grounds that Khomeini said what he said, then you are demonstrating a classic flock and herd following the shepherd without reasoning and thinking. We humans have the blessing of the brain and reason so we should use it. Hearing the opinion of people regarding different aspects of life shouldn't be the avenue through which we form our "beliefs" but rather we should research for ourselves to ensure that what we hear is reasonable, logical and makes sense.
Once again, quick starting the educational process for islamistheanswer: (he or she has yet to refute any of this)
from the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi–
The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:
( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)
Are you ready?
Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
The First Five of the 77 Branches:
"1. Belief in Allah"
aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.
Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!
Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.
Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..
Fortunately there are not many Muslim readers as your frivolous tirade would just re-enforce their faith in this false religion.
Frivolous? How so?
For those Muslims who are reading/language challenged:
There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion !!!!
Right. I was told by 4 Muslims (face to face and in person) that one ought not read the Qur'an. "It's too confusing," they said.
Confusing or not one would hope Muslims would at least read their own book.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....
Nonetheless, a story with a good lesson to learn. For the edification of humanity.
You know what? Stories, myths, and narratives can teach us a huge amount. The wisdom and lessons of Aesop's Fables, for example, are valuable regardless of whether or not the events in those fables actually happened. The truth and value of these lessons is inherent in them. would they have more truth and value if i said Aesop's Fables were written by a god? No.
I happen to believe that there are valuable lessons that can be learned from the bible; I just don't believe that the supernatural claims actually happened. And I certainly don't believe in attributing the contents of the bible to a god. There is simply no good evidence to support the existence of any god, let alone the god of the bible.
@ Peace – by that comment are you saying that you are too simple to comprehend what I wrote? Hmmmm.......
Keep repeating my mistakes. Humans, never learn.
Are you not human yourself, peace?
I am human with a sense of humor.
Lol. Good. I was afraid you sparkled.
Blind had no guilt, the one who can see has guilt.
"God always starts His new beginnings with clear endings.
That is why, before the NT church could be formed, there had to be the death/end of the old system. The ending of one wineskin before the introduction of another. [remember, you cannot put old wine into new wineskin, otherwise you end up losing both].
Every move of God that has happened is a progressive layering of a revelation, one upon another; each affirming what came before, but stretching the boundaries of what already existed to make room for something that never showed up yet."
To have new beginnings we must be able to see what the Father has in store. we must be willing to go back and become learners instead of masters of the subject."
The gospel of the kingdom is the ultimate reign of Christ demonstrated in some sphere right here, right now. It means God's will can be done here [on earth] as it is in heaven."
-Dr. Lance Wallnau
The whole Christ-sacrifice story is a steaming pile of bull-do from the get-go. How is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is complete nonsense.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
thanks for condensing your tirade.
why won't YOU heal amputees in the name of Jesus Bob... unless and until you open your mouth and do it, you will forever be asking this question.
what are you afraid of Bob – looking crazy?
Don't worry God uses the foolish things to confound the so called wise. Just do it, you will be surprised at what mere words spoken with authority can do.
In baseball terms, you were 0-for-2. Two questions asked of you and ZERO answers.
@ new-man: the site re: amputees asks the question: if praying to god has resulted in people's diseases being cured by god, why hasn't praying to god ever – EVER – resulted in god regenerating someone's missing limb?
Have any ideas about why god, of he's all-powerful, can't or won't regenerate missing limbs, yet he'll cure someone's cancer?
thanks for your observation... perhaps you'd like to answer [as this is an argument I do not wish to have]...
you can begin by explaining what this means – Christ was slain before the foundation of the world- and why this was necessary.
Bearing in mind, as I said above, God always starts his new beginnings with clear endings.
go ahead, thanks.
You have lost your argument with Bob because you have no answers.
Now you have asked a question that doesn't seem to make any sense. If you want an answer, you need to translate it into something that makes sense.
this is an argument I'm more than happy to lose.
it was more than enough that I even responded in anyway to Bob's post.
I'm quite happy to stick with my position, thank you.
rest assured I will celebrate Bob's victory with you and him. cheers!
You danced around this the last few times so I don't any more this time. The point is you claim that your god is omniscient and omnipotent so therefore knows of amputees and could heal them, you also claim that prayer works (even though an omniscient god should be aware of all problems). So that is why this is directed at believers – it shows that either your god is incapable or is unwilling, neither being admirable attributes of a loving god.
observer: this is a bit of background from which I posed the above question that needed clarification.
What darkness the Lord in his anger has brought upon the daughter of Zion! He hurled down from heaven to earth the glory of Israel, and did not remember in the day of his anger that Zion was his footstool. (La 2:1)NEB
So Zion existed in the heavens before she was cast down by Almighty God.
Why did God do such a thing? Read Lamentations 1:8-22 to see what transpired in the heavens to cause such a great fall. I’ll give one egregious instance here.
The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation. (La 1:10)KJV
This explains Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So the heavenly places needed to be sanctified from all the spiritual wickedness. Let me clarify here that this wickedness existed in the lower realms of the heavenly places, such as the Garden of Eden. One would have thought that Israel (that’s us – who are children of the Most High) would have repented of her evil ways, but no. She has persisted to this day in her wicked, abominable and evil ways. There is good news amidst all this though. She will come to the realization of her evil ways, repent of them, and be restored to her former glory. This however is a process, it’s not an easy one at that. The course is littered with all the subtleties that the devil employs in his never ending quest to try to derail us from ascending to the Father’s Throne.
Remember, the spiritual world is the pattern, and whatever transpires in the spirit world will eventually be manifested in the earth.
In the entire history of mankind, ONLY ONE person has ever made the journey back to the Father’s Throne, thus restoring for us the path to salvation, to eternity. Below, we discuss the path taken by Jesus from El Elyon’s Throne in the twelfth realm, to the earth realm, his death, resurrection, and ascension.
@ new-man: ever read Lord of the Rings? Now, i can quote from LOTR all day long, about what Sauron did to who, and when, and how Frodo saved the day,etc, etc, etc. i can give you hundred of pages of quotes, and put it all together in a logically consistent package to establish some point I want to prove about Aragorn. But there's just one small problem: its just a book. Just like the bible. And you can quote from it 'til the cows come home, but quoting from any book – including the bible – doesn't make the contents of that book true.
I will say this in the simplest terms I can.
Earnest prayer to God is not one of begging or beseeching. It is one of commanding. Jesus restored to man the dominion (ruler-ship) he lost over the earth.
The only way you can command something is by speaking to it... not speaking to God about it.
Faith is obedience to God – yes, it's [faith] risky and seems crazy but you won't know what will happen until you go out there, open your mouth and start commanding in Jesus' name.
Thought so. Jesus juice and nothing else. Do you ever wonder why a loving god ignores suffering and why it refuses to be tested – it's because it's all smoke and mirrors.
isn't it an arrogant and ignorant heart that keeps saying why does God allow this, without seeking to understand and refusing to understand that these things happen because we (mankind) allow them to happen.
Why – because we fail to grasp our identi.ty; we fail to grasp that ruler-ship in the earth was given to man. Christ Jesus restored this dominion to us, (after it was given away), yet we continue to live in ignorance as though He did nothing.
Why is it that many, including yourself, can come here and blaspheme the name of God with such boldness, yet refuse to curse sickness and disease in their own bodies or in those around them (in the name of Jesus) with the same boldness?
All I'm saying to you is, start exercising that authority. God is not going to open your mouth and do it for you, you have to open your mouth yourself and say the words yourself. Bearing in mind, it's not just limited to sickness & disease. (So much for the "free will" argument there).
You need to read the gospel for yourself to find your true identi.ty instead of relying on godless people who hate your Creator. Only when you know who you really are, then you will begin to act in accordance. (Until then, you have nothing to say to me, because if you refuse to do a simple thing because you're afraid of looking silly, or you just flat out reject it based on your own disbelief, that's on you).
If want specifics on how to do it... ask.
because God is ALSO a JUST God..He does not change! He cannot be Unjust....because then he ceases to be God..it has nothing to do with power..and might...There is more to God than that. He cannot change His character
Blah blah blah blah...still not competent enough to face reality and the fact that there is zero evidence for the vindictive god your buybull presents? Tell us, do you have more than a grade 5 education?
blah blah blah.....if youthink education has anything to do with it..tell me..WHY are there very few ATHEiSTS receiving the Nobel Prizes? Yes...I have a Bachelors in Psychology....what makes me incompetent just cause I believe there is a god? and what makes you thinkj I cannot face reality? I love life...I live a great life...I have no worries....etc....I work at a great job helping others..does that sound like someone who is not facing reality? and you are being hypocritical..you tell me IM rude..your last post was rude..tsk tsk......I wonder who is not facing reality now?
What?? 8% of the leading scientists are christian...I think your numbers are off.
Bachelor degrees can be obtained cheaply from fraud sites these days.
First of all..you are very deceptive!!!!! Christians are nOT the only theists!! Plus..if only 8% are such...again WHY are the majority of those on Nobel Prize awards THEISTS/desists? you can say,well..atheisst dontmake up much of the opulation..so youwould have reflective results in the Nobel Prize list...that's a sorry excuse, cause if athesists are "smarter and more educated" there would be a majority of atheists on the list.....YOu seem to not have been reading my posts or youre getting desperate...and if I got my degree from online fraud..WHY do I have a great job? I have degree from a University from the 90s (NOT online) and the people I work with know where I got my degree from and it can be verified......IM sorry you are so desperate tio discredit me you will makeup anything
The definition of god, what it is, what it wants changes depending on the imaginination of the one defining it.
You imagine god is one thing and wants certain things, others imagine god differently and wants dfifferent things. No one can show god exists outside of the realm of imagination.
here is an explanation that helped me to understand.....
Now what was the sort of "hole" man had got himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor-that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender-this movement full speed astern-is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means killing part of yourself, undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here comes the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person-and he would not need it.
Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would be all plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all-to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.
But supposing God became a man-suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person-then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and He cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all.
c.s. lewis – mere christianity
Here is the what will let you truly understand the entire history of religious belief, succinctly and with ease.
In the beginning, man created god in his own image.......everything after that is so self explanatory that you cannot refute it.
Have a nice day!
Dr. Lance Wallnau sounds like a nut bar.
The CEOs of multi-billion dollar industries would beg to differ.
"the proud and arrogant man – MOCKER is his name; he behaves with overweening [presumptuous] pride.
CEOs of multibillion dollar industries can be religious nutbars believing in fairy tales too.
Oh, thank you. I thought you had forgotten about us.
Yes. Falling endlessly, hope you start learning how to fly.
Not with this music. Not falling endlessly, either, bust thanks for your concern.
I had that dream, without techo of course, when i was a child but i learned how to fly.
Flying dreams are fantastic, aren't they?
Yeah. Better than superman saving the world. Amazing.
Some of you questioned god's morality based on some verses in OT, which described disturbing happenings in the old,BC history. You say that god taught horrible things and that's the true god: a monster, a cruel master.
However you are doing a big confusion here. Almost always he was talking only to Israel people. This is not god's moral, it's just commands he gave to Israel people in certain situations. They may look horrible but they are justified in the grand scheme of things, as I already showed for some of them.
But, justified or not, God never told you, or me or anyone else to kill, take slave or other things like this. God never intended them to be general teachings.
The true and only God moral has been brought by Jesus and can be summed up in this law: "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself"
Some may have other motivation for their non belief but keep spreading the word. Peace my brother.
Transformer, how far are you prepared to go in twisting the words of the bible? If one section can't be taken at face value, then how can any section?
1 Samuel 15 – God ORDERS the slaughter of innocent children.
If you can twist THAT in your mind into something moral or justifiable, then your moral compass is severely out of whack.
WHAT is immoral of Giod taking of life that he gives in first place..of a God who is Judge?
What is moral about it?
whats wrong..cant answer the question Akira?
What's the matter, Kermit, afraid to examine your faith in deciding anything goes as long as it's God doing it?
One should practice what He preaches, dear.
OH..I could answer that..the pOINT is..YOU didn't answer the question...so again..whats a matter..can YOU answer the question? I asked it..Im waiting for answer
Sometimes you shd try answering with something else than a question back
@ kern: is it okay for a human to kill another human if he is being ordered to do so by God?
What if that God is Allah? If the 9/11 hijackers were being told by their God (who happens to be the same Abrahamic god that Christians worship) to fly those planes into buildings to kill as many infidels as possible, what they were doing was moral.
If GOD commands that life..yes...Allah doesn't exist..so leave him out...we are only talking of God of the Bible in this thread
You have to ask the right question first: can God order you kill another human now? If don't answer this first, your question makes no sense
I think that killing innocents is immoral, yes.
But I will am not an OT literalist, either. I feel much of the OT was allegorical in nature.
ok..but that didn't quite answer the question..what is immoral about GOD taking the life of innocents? a God who is Just, Righteous, Holy and Judge (to name a few attributes)
It did answer the question. Killing is wrong according to His own commandments, but when He does it, it's okay. No. Killing is killing. Period.
NOT so....WE are not Creators and Judge of life..ONLY God is...cause GOD is Holy..we are not..God is righteous...we are not...so it isnot neccesarily kiliong is killing as you say...as I said before....YOU and I know it is bad cause WE have NO right over another perspons life...so then..answer the question..HOW is it that a GOd who is Holy Judge, Righteous and Creator of all..NOT fit for determining to take life?
Okay, Kermit, whatever you say.
I'll continue to believe that wholesale slaughter of innocents is wrong, no matter WHO decreed it.
so youwill be judge of one who is the ultimate Judge and Holy and Righteous? seems a little arrogant to me..but to each his own I guess...
Didn't say anything about judging, just gave my opinion. As all of your speculation is.
I really don't think I'm the arrogant one.
This is just another example of a command that God gave to Israel people in that particular situation. What is God's moral ?
Might makes right?
AS if the ONLY attribute if God is He is all powerful? GOd has other attributes according to the bIble...Just, Judge, Righteous Holy, just to name a few
Might makes right. Because He can.
You may want to explain how does this apply in this particular case.
yeah..Id like to hear it as well..if Jesus says to love others..then if you love another person..would you enslave them? I don't think so
I don't understand how this command can be anything but immoral, since killing is clearly immoral (to me). I am unsure what God 'a moral is in this particular situation; it appears to me since God is God the Almighty, might makes right.
yes..to YOU..in HUMAN perspective it seems immoral cause YOU and I are not the judges over someones life...and MIGHT is OT Gods only attribute..which is why you seem to sill be confused....
"and MIGHT is OT Gods only attribute."
Glad you agree.
typo..Might is NOT Gods only attribute
God didn't forbid slavery, either, as He did so many other things. And Jesus Himself said that he wasn't there to abolish old law, (which the laws about treatment of saves surely were), but to fulfill them.
Jesus never spoke out against slavery, either.
Yes, God did many things and didn't do many other things. For example didn't make people immortals (after Adam), though he could. Jesus did abolish slavery and all the other misery for men with this law: "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself"
Adam is still alive?
Jesus didn't abolish slavery. And that's a stretch to say that He did with His edict of "Love thy neighbor...", which, while a great rule to live one's life by, abolished anything.
No, Adam was created immortal. He just lost this state at some point. Jesus cannot abolish the actual slavery, which is civilian matter, but he abolished the state of mind that produce slavery
Yes, I remember That about Adam.
Why didn't Paul know about Jesus's abolishing the state of mind that produces slavery?
There's much about it in the NT about it; although I'll be honest and say your thoughts about it are much nicer than what the NT has Paul actually saying.
Paul DID know..when he sent the letter in Philemon...he told the slave owner to "love the slave as a brother" if again , one truly loves another...they would not enslave them
Of course Paul knew. As well as Jesus. But they not once said that slavery is morally wrong, and the love one another edict didn't abolish it, as slavery by Christian owners still happened. So were they not Christian enough?
Although it's a lovely idea, there is nothing to Biblically support Jesus meant love thy neighbor included abolishing slavery. For that matter, the OT AND the NT are silent on the subject of the morality of owning slaves.
then apparently yuo dont know what love is..and the fact that some Christians still owned slaves does NOT negate that.///plus..it isnt about "being Christian enough" its about understanding love..whcih you seem to not understand as well either..real love does NOT enslave annother person
Kermit, if one is to take the Bible literally at it's word, there is nothing in it whatsoever that specifically condemns slavery. Are you a Bible purist or not?
I am talking about something being Biblically supported by Scripture. There is none condemning slavery.
There is nothing in the Scriptures that condemns slavery. You may interpret any verse whatever way you'd like, but it isn't written that way, now is it?
And knock off the silly insults. You're showing your immaturity.
yes..you look for the obvious "away with slavery" answer the issue..DOES love enslave a person..YES or no..answer that simple quesiton
"You're showing your immaturity"
He does this with every post...you can tell when his temper is getting the best of him, he starts to misspell words and scream more...poor god-fearing child needs anger management and some education.
Story time. ILLNESS AT BIRTH
Jesus was visiting a town and he saw a mam blind at birth. Jesus diciples asked whise sin is it, his or his parents. Neither, it happened so Gods work could be shown and jesus gave sight.
The priest at the time heard this and questioned the healed man. Who did this? How did he do it? He explained he did not know jesus and showed how jesus cured him. Priest continued to question him and started ridiculing the man. Finally, the man said you dont know him and yet je gave sight. Nobody could give sight unless he was from God. The priest threw him out and said how dare you lecture us.
Jesus heard what happened found the man and asked: do you believe i am the son of god. The man asked: who is God? Tell me so i may believe. Jesus said you have seen him. For judgment i have come intoxthis world so the blind could see and those who could see will become blind.
Priest jeard jesus and asked: how do you this? Where you blind too? Jesus replied: if you were blind you would not be guilty of sin but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
Glad you started that post off with "Story Time"
Rather than argue with non believers, i think letting them know what Jesus did i hope will let them consider believing in God.
@ Peace: c'mon – you need to do better than that. You're putting the cart before the horse. You FIRST need to establish that (a) your God exists and that (b) the Bible is the word of that God and that (c) Jesus is God or connected to God and that (d) Jesus did the things attributed to him in the bible. Once you've established all of that, with cogent, reliable evidence, then and only then can we have a proper discussion about the merits of what Jesus did.
Did you get the moral of the story?
Includes teaching on the importance of the High Priest @ ~12 min on.
Today, Jesus is our High Priest.
Drat! The screen shot didn't show up!
The attire of the pharaohs/priests/shamans of ancient religions were full of symbolism too.
at least you tried... and that's what counts (re: the screen shot)
yes, I'm sure the attires of those you mentioned had symbolism, but who/what was the source of their power?
Uh, @new-man, I guess you didn't bother to look at that link...
p.s. their symbolism was attached to the same thing as yours - powerful imaginary beings, superst.itions and occasionally a real item perceived to be powerful... like the lion's tail (powerful animal) that pharaohs wore.
thus YOUR argument has nothing to stand on
No matter how much you try, you can't change the WORDS in the Bible.
Get some sleep. Maybe you'll do better next time after you read the Bible.
WHAT words did I change??? maybe YOu should get some sleep cause you are not reading my posts properly
SO where did the Bible say "ONLY" when talking about the "day or two"?
Get some sleep. You need it. Tomorrow you may be more logical and can read better.
LET me ask you this..WHY dos it say "if he continue a day or two?" why does it not say if he lives despite the injurie? apparently something happens..for he lives for a day or two....see...youre not thinking here....youre assuming..i see it as if the man died after 2 or 3 days....otherwise..what a weird and unconvincing way to say he survived it
What part of this English language don't you comprehend? "if he doesn't die in a day or so there will be NO VENGEANCE"
RIGHT,,there will NOT be a death penalty..I said this TWICE in my posts! Stop doing selective reading...there STILL is a consequence though..the man loses his money
What part of this English language don't you understand "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod AND HE DIES at his hand, HE SHALL BE PUNISHED"?
that's high praise coming from you, kermy
I believe you have said before that your church does not discriminate against gays and the handicapped. That's really good for you and your church. That's the way it should be. That's why I oppose what the Bible says. Your church, like probably every other church, doesn't practice EVERYTHING that the Bible says.
<Y God you are so ignorant..NOWhERE did God say we are not to allow them in Church! It says Before the ALTAR..thats nOT church..its noT even a synagogue!!!!! It was a JOB of priests to go to the altar to pour blood on it..it was in the hOLY of Holies..apparently you have nO clue what you are talking about!!!!
see..we do NOT have priests representing us TODAY..we do NOT have a Holy of Holies to which ONLY a priest can enter...so youre barking up the wrong tree with this silly argument
I said he DISCRIMINATES and PROVED he did.
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