Opinion by the Rev. James Martin, special to CNN
(CNN) - With Easter approaching, and the movie “Son of God” playing in wide release, you’re going to hear a lot about Jesus these days.
You may hear revelations from new books that purport to tell the “real story” about Jesus, opinions from friends who have discovered a “secret” on the Web about the son of God, and airtight arguments from co-workers who can prove he never existed.
Beware of most of these revelations; many are based on pure speculation and wishful thinking. Much of what we know about Jesus has been known for the last 2,000 years.
Still, even for devout Christian there are surprises to be found hidden within the Gospels, and thanks to advances in historical research and archaeological discoveries, more is known about his life and times.
With that in mind, here are five things you probably didn't know about Jesus.
1.) Jesus came from a nowhere little town.
Nearly all modern-day archaeologists agree the town of Nazareth had only 200 to 400 people. Jesus’ hometown is mentioned nowhere in either the Old Testament or the Talmud, which notes dozens of other towns in the area.
In fact, in the New Testament it is literally a joke.
In the Gospel of John, when a man named Nathanael hears the messiah is “Jesus of Nazareth,” he asks, “Can anything good come from Nazareth?” He’s dissing Jesus’ crummy backwater town.
2.) Jesus probably didn’t know everything.
This is a thorny theological question. If Jesus is divine, wouldn’t he know all things? (Indeed, on several occasions Jesus predicts his death and resurrection.)
On the other hand, if he had a human consciousness, he needed to be taught something before he could know it. The Gospel of Luke says that when Jesus was a young man he “progressed” in wisdom. That means he learned things. (Otherwise how would he “progress”?)
In the Gospel of Mark, Jesus initially refuses to heal the daughter of a non-Jewish woman, saying rather sharply, “It is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.”
But when she replies that even the dogs get the crumbs from the table, Jesus softens, and he heals her daughter. He seems to be learning that his ministry extends beyond the Jewish people.
3.) Jesus was tough.
From age 12 to 30, Jesus worked in Nazareth as a carpenter. “Is not this the carpenter?” say the astonished crowds when he begins to preach.
The word used for Jesus’ profession in the original Greek is tekton. The traditional translation is “carpenter.” But most contemporary scholars say it’s more likely a general craftsman; some even translate it as “day laborer.”
A tekton would have made doors, tables, lamp stands and plows. But he probably also built stone walls and helped with house construction.
It was tough work that meant lugging tools, wood and stones all over Galilee. Jesus doesn’t simply stride onto the world stage after having dreamily examined a piece of wood when the mood suited him. For 18 years, he worked—and worked hard.
4.) Jesus needed “me time.”
The Gospels frequently speak of Jesus’ need to “withdraw” from the crowds, and even his disciples.
Today by the Sea of Galilee, where Jesus carried out much of his ministry, you can see how close the towns were, and how natural it would have been for the enthusiastic crowds to “press” in on him, as the Gospels describe.
There’s even a cave on the shoreline, not far from Capernaum, his base of operations, where he may have prayed.
It’s called the “Eremos Cave,” from the word for “desolate” or “solitary,” from which we get the word “hermit.” Even though Jesus was the son of God, he needed time alone in prayer with the father.
5.) Jesus didn’t want to die.
As he approaches his death, and prays hard in the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus says, “Remove this cup.” It’s a blunt prayer addressed to the father, whom he affectionately calls Abba. He doesn’t want to die.
Unlike the way some Christians portray Jesus as courting death, and even desiring it, like any human being, the idea of death is terrifying. “My soul is sorrowful even unto death,” he says.
In other words, “I’m so sad that it feels like I’m going to die.” But once Jesus realizes that this is somehow the will of the father, he assents to death, even on a cross.
It’s natural to want to know as much as we can about Jesus; that’s one reason I wrote my new book. But beware of the more outlandish claims about the son of God (he fathered children, he was married to Mary Magdalene, he spent time in India and so on.)
Many of these claims tend to project our own desires on a man who will always remain somewhat elusive, hard to fully understand and impossible to pin down.
In the end, as theologians like to say, Jesus is not so much a problem to be solved as a mystery to be pondered.
The Rev. James Martin is a Jesuit priest, editor of America magazine and author of the new book "Jesus: A Pilgrimage" (HarperOne). The views expressed in this column belong to Martin.
"youre grasping at straws to discredit the church and it isn't working...youre showing your true colors"
So did God command the following:
He didn't want priests to "approach the altar and PROFANE his sanctuaries with ANY of the following handicaps in his church:
limb too long
YES or NO? Did God say that?
yes..and for GOOD reason..as I pointed out..or are you only gonna do with my posts as you do with the Bible..selective reading?
So let's wrap things up.
You agree that God discriminated against the handicapped.
You agree that God let soldiers take women as prizes.
You agree that God drowned children which is torturous.
It's good that we can agree on some things.
I do NOt agree...don't be so arrogant..as for women..they were nOT taken as prizes..thats your fantasy...that's you trying again to discriminate against the bible..and again as for the handicapped...it was for very good reason...and ALSO...it did nOT mean the handicapped wre any less human...that would be coming from youre sense of self wortth
see..your true colors are showing..youre trying desperately to discredit God and the church...it isn't working
I personally don't believe in DISCRIMINATING against the handicapped.
It was God who didn't want their presence to PROFANE his church.
so tell me..why do YOU think it is wrong and "discrimination" to not allow them to be priests? youthink that made them feel less human or something? (BY the way...this is not a commandment of our church -we don't have an ALtar of the Lord or such) this was for the Isrealites coming into a new land..and Jesus fulfilled the commands (WE NOW COME Before GOD WITHOUT BLEMISH)
"so tell me..why do YOU think it is wrong and "discrimination" to not allow them to be priests? youthink that made them feel less human or something?"
If God told you that your presence would PROFANE his church, do you "think that made them feel less human or something?"
Get serious. I am opposed to discrimination against the handicapped, unlike God.
NO..because MY worth is NOT based oin me being disabled or such..MY worth is based that IM a child of God ..plus we ALL have different work we do...some are preachers..some are ushers...ALL are equal..its nOT like the worldly ways where they say opne job is more important than another...I am serious here...besides..it did nOT say presence in thwe church..but Before the latar..it did nOt say they could not go to the synagogues....do you even know what it is to GO Before the latar???? I don't think you do..NOWHEER did it say it would profane His CHURCH either..
"it did nOT say presence in thwe church..but Before the latar..it did nOt say they could not go to the synagogues....do you even know what it is to GO Before the latar???? I don't think you do..NOWHEER did it say it would profane His CHURCH either.."
We've pretty much beat this into the ground.
I'll finish with a passage from the Bible that you aren't familiar with:
(Lev. 21:16-24) “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to Aaron, saying, NONE OF YOUR OFFSPRING throughout their generations who has a blemish may APPROACH to offer the bread of his God. For no one who has a blemish shall DRAW NEAR, a man blind or lame, or one who has a mutilated face or a limb too long, or a man who has an injured foot or an injured hand, or a hunchback or a dwarf or a man with a defect in his sight or an itching disease or scabs or crushed testicles. No man of the offspring of Aaron the priest who has a blemish shall COME NEAR to offer the Lord’s food offerings; since he has a blemish, he shall not COME NEAR to offer the bread of his God. He may eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy and of the holy things, but he shall not go through the veil or APPROACH THE ALTAR, BECAUSE HE HAS A BLEMISH, THAT HE MAY NOT PROFANE my sanctuaries, for I am the Lord who sanctifies them." So Moses spoke to Aaron and to his sons and to all the people of Israel.”
DLOT tell me IM not familiar with my Bible...my God you are arrogant..and again this does NOT say church..but ALTAR..and again you show your stupidity and ignorance here...an ALTAR was NOT In a church or synagogue..and only PRiESTS at THAT time were to go in...there are nO LONGER any priests who go before the altar for us! YOu are so very unfamiliar with the BIble...read Hebrews and 1 and 2 Peter we ALL now come before God...I MYSWLF have handicaps...and I don't take kindly to your stupid little rant, trying to discredit the Bible or thw church..Im off to bed..as I said..GO READ those two books..then get back to me on this
HE MAY NOT PROFANE my sanctuaries
So a church is NOT any kind of a "sanctuary".
Just like it doesn't say "profane", right?
THAT wasin reference to the hOLY of HOLIES ..get the frigging context...You are thre one changing stuff around...they did nOT have churches back then..they had ONE place that had the ALTAR of the Lord..and the hOLY of Hoies..you are so very ignorant of this..and it shows...go and do some actual studying of the Tent that the Holy of Holies was in..as I said..ONLY priests go in..and NOW..TODAY..we are ABLE to come in..WE TODAY are without blemish! but it is mUCH deeper than the outside as in the oT....you sir are the one changing things...you don't know what the sanctuary or the altar was
At least you got to read about PROFANING his altar and agreed there was a LONG LIST of handicaps that God said would do that.
So you've learned something. I hope your church keeps up it's good approach.
sir..don't be frigging arrogant..I KNEW of this already...don't be such a smug donkey (I would use another word..but the eidtors prolly wont allw it) I STUDY the Bible over 35 years (note I say STUDY..not merely READ) and I TEACH it to adults for 15 plus years.....I know my Bible more than you do..as I shown you here that you pretty much havbe no clue what a church is..what an Altar is and I doubt if you even heard of the Holy of Holies (for which is found the Altar of The Lord)..I think it is you who needs to learn something
If you had read your Bible better you wouldn't have said "..NOWHEER did it say it would profane His CHURCH either.."
NOWHERE does it say it would profane His CHURzCH..again you don't know what YOu are talking about..You STILL have nOT shown me your knowledge of Holy of Holies, the Temple, the Holy Place.and all that
observer: Do you ever get the feeling that kermi is simply looking for a fight and nothing more? He doesn't care about anything other than his holy book and his imaginary friend. If this dolt actually cared about evidence he'd have walked away. I'm thinking the poor child never knew love growing up and now must cling to imaginary friends for the love and security he missed getting from his parents. He's not worth debating with outside of his spewing making him look like a bigger fool and helping to bury his belief system.
What's fascinating with many Christians is their absolute refusal to admit the truth about what the Bible says. The Bible can say "black" and you read it to them and they insist that it really means "white". I hear some classics like the word "tempt" use in one place doesn't mean "tempt" used in another place. The strength of denial is incredible and amazing.
They read the book with a belief that stems from before they could read, so they already have a preconceived notion that their god is good and that anything their god does, regardless of how horrible it may seem, has a justified reason. In reality, if their god was real it would be in prison for its crimes against humanity.
and you lie....I wasn't told about God like that...you are so arrogant to think you know all Christians and how they grew up...
Are you born again? Who told you about god? If you say your parents than it is you that is lying. Belief is taught and most times before the age of maturity. Children are little sponges and are taught about your god and in other cases, the other gods.
I am a recovering christian....so don't go asuming that I know nothing just because my interpretation doesn't meld with yours.
I say you know nothing about OTHER people...use the context and read..that ws the point.no..MY parents did not tell me about God and all....just stop while youre ahead ok? I thought you were a free thinker or such....you assume too much without asking..seems worse than what you say of us....at least I ASK about things before I believe in it..I don't accept things blindly like you did....
You must accept this god blindly because there is zero evidence for it. Answer the questions!
I been answering the questions....just cause you don't agree with them doesnt mean I haven't been answering
YOushowed me NOTHING yet..you showed me you don't kow what a church is..what the Altar of the Lord is..what the holy of Holies is..what a priests job is..you showed nothing..I do NOT see the word CHurch..and YOu insist it is there..and You say you show us black?
ODNT YOU EVER give up? I know love..I don't look for a fight..I UNDerstand the bIble...you say I was rude and You are calling me names pot calling kettle..don't ever tell me IM rude and ill mannered youhypocrite..looks like YOU are the one looking for a fight since you keep at this demeaning stuff and name calling...pathetic
kermi: Sorry, I don't seem to recall having addressed you.
sorry..but you were referring to me anyways...and you know it...knock it off
Besides.I DO care about evidence..and I got plenty of it..do NOT project yourself on me
kermi: Sorry, the bible doesn't count. Getting angry again?
did I say the Bible counted as evidence...man you are so arrogant and assuming stop while youre ahead
What else do you have kermi?? There's nothing else to support you!
I have my LIFE as evidence..my Experiences with God as my evidence..now that maytnot be enough for YOU..but it is enough for ME..I do ont expect anyone to take my word for it...in fact..even the BIble touches on that..experience it for yourself (Taste and see that the Lord is Good) I dontwant anyone to take my word for it..cause believing God exists doesn't cut it..believing that he saves will help
Sorry to inform you but your life doesn't count as evidence in the real world. How do you know it's god and not Zeus or Odin or or or??
I said it is enough evidence FOR MYSELF.....I gotten to know Him personally....Id know who God is..hello..just as yiou get to know someone personally..you know its fred and not barney
That akin to a child naming their imaginary friend. The only difference is you call it god and think this god has some control over the world, you think you'll live an afterlife...you don't care about real evidence and that is truly sad.
I care about real evidence..what is sad is you limited to what evidence is so you can discount God.....you limit reality. that is sad...having an imaginary firned is not experiencing their presence as I do....and I also see God's work in my life and lives of others. its sad you cant let that go...and let others believe as they want
Oh my your take on reality is lacking. How do you know it is the work of a god???
And yes, hearing ans speaking to this god is akin to a child and their imaginary friend...sorry that hurts your feeling but sometimes reality sucks.
Now I understand I'll never change your weak mind, so I no longer will waste time with you.
Youre not hurting my feelings...I don't care whatyou say to that..since YOU don't speak for me..YOU have NOT lived MY reality....thus you are no judge on such things. Plus hardly any psychologists say such things...you know what I find in reality..the only pathetic people saying such things as you...saying im being childish in believing in fairy tales and such..are those in the blogs...I work in the psychology field...wrk with hundreds of psychologists in the past 12 years..none of them say what yousay..and not all are Christians..some are agnotics, atheists, gnostics..etc.
NO man proved God to me..why do you think yourself arrogant enough to disprove?
I care that what I believe in can be shown with evidence to exist. The fact that you admit that no man proved god, only proves that you don't give a damn about actual evidence.
oh my God you are so dense..I said NOman proved God to me..WHAt else is there left but GOD to prove himself to me man it is sad that I had to spell that out for you!! I did get evidence..NOT from man...from GOD...sheesh...think before you write..thanks
Calling me dense when you can't answer a simple question.
How hard is this for you to comprehend? What you say is evidence for your god is evidence to you only and does not prove a god. How do you even know it is a god? What verifiable scientific evidence can you provide to say it is a god? You don't care about evidence, you don't even comprehend what evidence is!
Sheesh, think before you make fallacious silly child like claims!
evidence is NOT exclusive to science.and we are talking of Supernatural..notnatural..of which science only deals with..thus using wrong tools....you are trapped in a box..and you say IM childish? youre trapped in a playpen..and WHAT question are you referring to? MAYBE I missed it..huh???
OMG, you are such an ignorant dolt!! Science provides answers, the supernatural is non-existent! You can make all the fallacious claims you wish but there is no justification for accepting any of it unless it is testable. Once again you do not care about evidence!! You are part of what holds society back...not caring, ignorant fool!! Grow up..imaginary friends are for children and schizophrenics.
You're a waste of further debate AUSTIN!!
YOU are theone holding society back...Science deals with NATUzrAL..God is NOT natural..thus science does NOT prove OR disprove God!! You are the fool here..and you are the sad case of letting science answer ALL your quesitons..which it can NOT do!!!! You are the sad case of limiting yourself to science alone andnothing else...youre trapped in a box...and WE are holding back society? if you cant think outside the box..youre lagging behind..I love science..you can find lots of answers..but as I saidbefore..it can NOT prove or disprove God!
Nothing proves your god and until there is evidence for a god, there is no justification for believing in one. The second you accept 'god did it' as an answer, you have closed your mind off to other possibilities.
It is not up to science to disprove god, science is not making the claim that a god exists. The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim!
It's futile trying to explain anything to you, you twist it and don't care.
Enjoy the delusion, you're not worthy of more energy!
UH...not exactly..I accept "God did it" AFTER I have thought it thoroughly..I did not automatically do that...IN THE beginning..NOw God is consistent and I recognize when God does it..THEN I say God did it...don't try to do my thinking for me..or think you know me.....you dont......you been making one false assumption after another about me. sadly it seems you are projecting your old self on me...tha tdont work..ok?
and anyways..YOUR sense of reality is limited to science alone....which is very limiting
If you have tangible, testable, demonstrable, repeatable proof of the supernatural, you would be the first in history.
are you using context as in science? if so..then youre limiting yourself..and depending on science alone to help you through life and I pity you....I have repeatable evidence..and Im not the first...I see it in my life and lives of others....I have experienced it..I do not say this cause some pastor told me or such about God....I experienced it..i LIVED it....oh..and btw no..imnot against science as a whole..I love science..but science is not going to get you through everything in life
also..science ONLY deals with the natural..I oticed you said Supernatural..so that should get you thinking that you are using wrong tools
Evidence is not subjective. Evidence is, well, evident to everybody.
If the proof that you have (which you've yet to describe in any meaningful way) is in your own head, then it isn't evidence of anything other than that you believe something.
What you have is FAITH – which is belief despite a lack of proof or evidence.
so evidence is exclusive ONLY to scientific method eh? sorry..thats bigotry and bias....youre setting the bar too high for reality there....I have NO faith God exists..I have knowedge of his existence...maybe to YOU it does not SEEm like evidence..but you are not free to discount it s evidence to myself....you are not me...you dont think for me or speak for me ok? I DO have faith..but its in Gods Promises...that's what the Bible talks of...faith in His porimises
If that is your definition of "evidence", then every belief, every god, and every religion has just as much "evidence" as yours.
apparenrly youdontknow muchabout other religions..most others do NOT calim or admit having experiences with there gods..Muslims do NOT claim and even say they cannot Exeprierence Allahs presence..etc. but do it that way if you want...like I said..I have enough for ME to believe..and if you cant handle that..too bad
Scientologists who are "Clear" claim to have had direct contact with their Body Thetans. Do you accept their evidence?
In the ancient world, Chthonic deities had daily, direct interactions with humans.
Such people also believed that Numina, or "spirit forces" were at play in just about everything and they interpreted natural phenomena as messages from them.
Shamans have traditionally held power and importance because of their gifts of divination – the ability correctly observe and interpret the mystical signs and evidences given by the gods.
The Noahic character from the Epic of Gilgamesh made a sacrifice to the gods after the flood – the text states “the gods smelled the sweet savor, the gods crowded like flies around the sacrifice" – the human in the story had direct experiences with those gods.....
the list can go on and on – but the fact remains that faith is not evidence.
I don't acceptthiers cause I KNOW God personally..he isn't what Scientologists claim..thats different from you..you claim there is no god period...whereas I say I KNOW God personally. ANd if Sciientologists claim something different from what I know.then its a fraud.
And there it is –
Anybody who believes differently than you is a fraud.
Though you cannot meaningfully elucidate why your god, your religion and your holy book are "The Truth ™", you are absolutely certain that nobody else could possibly be correct in theirs, no matter if their convictions are as a deeply held as your own.
I could andI did..the problem is..you expect to merely take my word for it only...which to me is blindly taking it..as atheists claim we are doing. We live it..we see it..we experience it. if YOU want to know it..find out for yourself...btw do you do all the experiments that scientists do...experiment with chemicals, experiment with different metals, experiment with surgery? I don't think you did...thus you take all the scientists words for it don't you? we are different..we LIVE it out..we experience it fully
You continue to ignore the fact that just about every adherent of every religion throughout all of history has claimed the exact same thing as you!
You can't all be right, but you can certainly all be wrong.
I have not ignored that they claim it...I know they claim it..but I know what I know and I wil not accept their God since God has shown and proven Himself to me...unlike you..you have nothing...so I cant compare you with others.
I am a naturalist.
Everything that exists in the real, physical world is my evidence.
right..and thus you limit yourself in this world and reality. you got yourself trapped in a box
Hang in there kermit as doc like the priests who sacrificed the perfect lamb missed all the bread crumbs to the house of their dreams may at any moment understand as doc put it the fragrance of love. That love of God which captures your soul, mind and strength.
doc said "“the gods smelled the sweet savor, the gods crowded like flies around the sacrifice" – the human in the story had direct experiences with those gods....." =>I too have had direct experiences with God. Most fall back to their own understanding creating gods that look like their desires rather than Gods desire for us. Yep, we go for the tree every time and doc thinks he understands the tree of knowledge with "no gods needed" ............I wonder which voice doc hears?
The "tree of knowledge"? You're getting your mythologies mixed up. Ygrassil belongs to Odin and the Norse gods.
Do you feel as though life is devoid of purpose and meaning if there isn't some kind of existence beyond our own universe?
Do you feel that your understanding is limited becuase you don't believe in Oz, Neverland, or Narnia?
NOT at all..my focus is not limited to the afterlife..I have meaning not because there is afterlife..but because I am created by God...MY life has worth NOT in what I DO (which is superficial and shallow) but WHO I am....
Just be careful you are not of the spirit of one called Ratatoskr scampering about this site with messages from Níðhöggr
God's DISCRIMINATION AGAINST HANDICAPPED PRIESTS:
God announced that he didn't want priests to "approach the altar and PROFANE his sanctuaries with ANY of the following handicaps in his church:
limb too long
and what was the Altar? it represented Gods PRSENCE..and again we NOW as priests are able to come to God without fear or trembling..remember..the priests in the beginning represented the people....plus...in Hebrews Jesus was our High priest who was without blemish or spot..again....they were representing something that would later be a way to figure out what God is saying
Yep. Since "altar" means God's presence, he DIDN'T WANT handicapped people in his presence.
Thanks for pointing that out.
you still don't get it do you? It was supposed to show us later how WE are without blemish when WE come bodly before God......don't try to make a mockery out of this.....youre grasping at straws to discredit the church and it isn't working...youre showing your true colors
"the Bible does NOT say women were prizes of war.thats your assumption"
(Deut. 21:10-13) “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.”
"he didn't allow them to be pRIESTS..as an EXAMPLE..you don't connect the dots very well"
So you admit I was CORRECT and then you claim I "don't connect the dots"? CLASSIC!!!
ooops..how about the women not protesting? hmm? I did not see any protesting..or even implying of such.....doesn't sound like they had no choice...try again..as for the priests...maybe I should elaborate..the example was for later years when WE are called priests..SPIRITUALLY without blemish..see 1 Peter chpaters 1-3 see...again you have to connect all the dost..and you thought yOu knew the BIble?? lol
"ooops..how about the women not protesting?"
OOOOPS! Trying to CHANGE subjects fools NO ONE but yourself.
I told the TRUTH. GOD DISCRIMINATED AGAINST HANDICAPPED PRIESTS. FACT.
HOW did I change the subject? I discussed what you were discussing...
"women not protesting" had NOTHING to do with it. God obviously didn't care if they protested when he spoke.
sir..the point is..YOU ASSUME they went unwillingly...
God obviously didn't care about these prize of war.
You apparently fantasize that all these captured women fell in love with their enemy.
and YOUR argument fantasizes they did not
lol. Try again. Your argument is ONLY valid if ALL women fell in love with the enemy soldiers who captured them.
In any other case, God let them be PRIZES of war.
and YOURS works ONLY if they did not fall in love with them..and whos to say they were "captured?"
You are fumbling around so PITIFULLY trying to come up with any possible EXCUSE, that you aren't even reading what the Bible says
"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them CAPTIVE"
Get some sleep. Read a Bible tomorrow and hope you do better.
NOT making excuses at all..YOu have YET top prove to me the women went UNWILLINGLY to get married..they went against their will to be married...
lol. You ACTUALLY believe that ALL captured women would fall in love with the enemy soldiers who have carted them off from their loved ones? NO EXCEPTIONS.
lol. lol. lol.
(Ex. 21:20-21) “If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property”
So do you agree that if a slave owner beats an elderly female slave with a rod (maybe broke a bone), but she didn't die "in a day or two", that there should be NO VENGEANCE.
YES or NO? Let's see what your morals are.
You just prove my point: yes it looks cruel (bad) today but those days it was a big progress (good) that some accountability was imposed to the slave owner in those days when any other civilization didn't have it. So, again bad and good are relative
Do you agree that if a slave owner beats an elderly female slave with a rod (maybe broke a bone), but she didn't die "in a day or two", that there should be NO VENGEANCE.
Hmmm...did CSI exist then> what is a rod? and if someone gotten beaten by a rod bad enough to die immediately....that's proof of murderous intent! and the cibsequences of murder was death to the murderer...however..if the person did not die immediately..murderous intent cannot be proven..he still siffered consequences..remember..these are people who owed money...the man who beat the slave then lost money (Not that money is more important than life-but it is still a consequence)
So if your boss BEAT you with a ROD and you couldn't work for a while, you don't think any VENGEANCE should be taken, right?
lol. GET SERIOUS.
uhh..helloo??? this passage concerned the DEATH of the person.not that he couldn't work a while! second..the bIble DoES czlearly state that if one gets injured..he gets to go FREE! Maybe Youshould read the bIble...You get seriuous..plus..VEGANCE is refered to the DEATH penalty!
Wake up!. The Bible CLEARLY SAYS "IF HE DOESN"T DIE". It also says that under CERTAIN conditions he can go free and NOT ALL conditions that you foolishly claim.
(Ex. 21:20-21) “If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property”
Maybe you will READ it this time.
LOL...if he SURVIVES a day or two...so what happenes after day 3? helloooooooo...he dies! if he survives ONLY a day or two..that means evetually he dies after the third day
"if he survives ONLY a day or two..that means evetually he dies after the third day"
lol. Where did you find the IMAGINARY word "ONLY" in the Bible"? Why did you MAKE THAT UP?
uh..IF he survives after a day or two..again..WHAT happens after the third day?> if he survives only two days..then what happens?? you figure it out genius
If he LIVES MORE THAN 2 days, there is to be NO VENGEANCE.
Is English a second language for you? Can you read and comprehend English?
I hope that you had the opportunity to learn about Islam and the Quran throughout the discussions that were carried out in this forum. I would like to invite you to take the Quran Challenge.
The Quran Challenge Please listen to it since it is an amazing challenge and since the crowd here is typically of a higher IQ than the average population, I urge you to take this challenge!
@ssq41: Of course I'm talking about man's morality. That's why there is no moral outside God. There can't be different kinds of good / bad
Where do the morals come from that convince Christians that God was wrong to support slavery, several discriminations, beating children, beating slaves without punishment, etc.
How about an answer before you RUN AWAY?
Where is this?
(Prov. 23:13-14) “Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.”
That's just tough education. Was and still is seen everywhere, Christian or not
Fortunately, we have better morals in our laws and so this is illegal. Fortunately, we don't follow the morals in the Bible.
Unfortunately our so called better morals in our laws doesn't stop child molestation which happens all the time, as always
And neither does your God, trans.
More immoral (in)action.
Well, if you opened this chapter, how about some stats reflecting the benefits of our "good" moral:
– Every year more than 3 million reports of child abuse are made in the United States involving more than 6 million children
– A report of child abuse is made every ten seconds
– More than four children die every day as a result of child abuse
– Approximately 70% of children that die from abuse are under the age of 4
At least we have laws that will punish child molesters, which are NEVER specifically mentioned or condemned in the Bible.
And only crickets are heard against the night sky with an occasional passing 45 mile-wide asteroid...
Yes but they don't seem to stop this phenomenon.
You seem to have a higher IQ than the average population, islamistheanswer is urging you to take The Quran Challenge
I took that challenge. where is that islamabot? Don't I get some kind of incense or something for taking that challenge?
I'm actually quite the fan of the Islamic mystic and poet Rumi...but I'm not interested in answers.
It's the questions that are the most profound things humans can pursue.
Those that have the "answers" are always suspect.
And...I'm in love with Doris.
The Old and New Testament are the West's leading source of moral relativism, and within Judaism and Christianity, the two testaments are the origins of their moral relativity.
Unfortunately not or at least not anymore
•Almighty – Revelation 1:8
•Alpha – Revelation 1:8
•Anointed One – Psalm 2:2
•Author and Perfecter of our Faith – Hebrews 12:2
•Beginning – Revelation 21:6
•Bread of Life – John 6:35,48
•Chief Shepherd – 1 Peter 5:4
•The Christ – Matthew 1:16
•Comforter – Jeremiah 8:18
•Everlasting Father – Isaiah 9:6
•Foundation – Isaiah 28:16
•God – John 1:1
•Glory of God – Isaiah 60:1
•Good Shepherd – John 10:11
•Great Shepherd – Hebrews 13:20
•Head of the Church – Colossians 1:18
•High Priest – Hebrews 3:1
•Holy One of Israel – Isaiah 41:14
•Salvation – Luke 1:69
•I Am – Exodus 3:14
•Jehovah – Psalm 83:18
•Jesus – Matthew 1:21
•King of Israel – Matthew 27:42
•King of Kings – 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16
• Lamb of God – John 1:29
• Last Adam – 1 Corinthians 15:45
•Life – John 11:25
• Light of the World – John 8:12; John 9:5
•Lion of the Tribe of Judah – Revelation 5:5
•Lord of Lords – 1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16
•Master – Matthew 23:8
•Mediator – 1 Timothy 2:5
•Messiah – John 1:41
•Mighty God – Isaiah 9:6
• Morning Star – Revelation 22:16
• Omega – Revelation 1:8
• Passover Lamb – 1 Corinthians 5:7
•Priest – Hebrews 4:15
•Prince of Peace – Isaiah 9:6
•Propitiation – I John 2:2
•Purifier – Malachi 3:3
•Rabbi – John 1:49
•Redeemer – Isaiah 41:14
•Refiner – Malachi 3:2
•Refuge – Isaiah 25:4
•Resurrection – John 11:25
•Righteousness – Jeremiah 23:6
•Ruler of God's Creation – Revelation 3:14
•Sacrifice – Ephesians 5:2
•Savior – 2 Samuel 22:47; Luke 1:47
•Shepherd – 1 Peter 2:25
•Son of God – Luke 1:35
•Truth – John 14:6
•Way – John 14:6
•Wonderful Counselor – Isaiah 9:6
•Word – John 1:1
Don't really have the time to address all the "th-umptations" but let us put a few in perspective:
1. Anyone looking for the historic Jesus will not find him in the gospel of John- Professor Gerd Ludemann.
2. The Timothy epistle was not written by Paul.
3. Thomas Jefferson omitted Revelation along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." 
Martin Luther once "found it an offensive piece of work" and John Calvin "had grave doubts about its value."
What is Gods teachings? Morality. To love one another, turn the other cheek and dont judge. We should force our beliefs on others but to offer guidance. A legitimate authorithy. Like helping a child crossing the child.
Opps. Not to force our beliefs on others. Sorry human error.
*are, street. Too many mistakes sorry.
What are Gods teachings? Morality. To love one another, turn the other cheek, dont judge, etc. We should not force our belief on others but to offer guidance. A legitimate authorithy. Like helping a child crossing a street.
By what authority? Helping someone safely cross the street shouldn't be difficult for most. But spreading misinformation for many other concepts is easy when it's based on ancient superstition. Once again I ask, where are you getting your information that results in what you're calling authority?
As long the guidance is moral and legitimate it does not matter where it came from. I rather discuss the morality and legitimacy of any given guidance.
How are you determining legitimacy? Your opinion perhaps?
You missed my point, an authorithy is legitimate if it offers guidance not demands.
"Do as I say or I will send you to hell" is NOT "guidance" but DEMANDS.
@ Peace: So where can we find you god's teachings, if not the bible? Where can we find these morals from your god if not scripture?
I've tried whipp. PA is afraid to answer that, yet not afraid to call a certain thing an "illness"...
@ Doris; I do believe you're right. I find it more than a little ironic that those believers who go on and on about the bible often have an extremely limited and one-sided understanding of exactly what is in the bible.
It's all in there – they're just afraid to acknowledge it.
Read my post to Whip below regarding judgement. Tell me what you think.
yes and whipp's response to that larger post of yours was spot on. it all boils down to your interpretation, therefore your subjective view which, of course, is tainted with subjectivity, PA!
I will alway be your brother. Peace
@ Peace: so what parts of the bible are you cherry-picking from to come up with that? Why are you ignoring the parts of the bible where your god orders genocide, authorizes ra-pe and slavery, and sets out that unruly and disobedient children should be stoned to death?
Please stop with the hypocrisy and dishonesty. The god of the bible is a monster – one only has to read the bible to see that.
Do you believe everything that is written and said by humans. Apparently you do not realize humans are capable of lying or make mistakes as i clearly demonstrated in my post. Understand the teachings of God and human behavior as seen throughout our history.
Accusing me of something i am not to discredit me is a futile attempt to make a point.
Peace, I am apparently confused. You refer to "teachings of god". I thought these "teachings" would be in the bible. I appear to be wrong. So, what exactly are these "teachings of god" you refer to? where are they found? How were they communicated? To whom? When? What do they say?
And who do you KNOW they are "teachings of god"?
Correcton; "How" do you know, not "who" do you know
Teachings of God is in the Bible just have to analyze to determine the true meaning based on other interpretations, who said it, what was the message, etc. The bible consists if two parts, the old and new testaments.
The old testament focuses on God judgement dont know the reasons. Early believer have this tremendous belief in God. And as we know too much of anything is bad for anyone. Even religion or love. Early belivers did not know what sacrifice means thereby sacrificing humans. They impose God judgement not knowing they themselves are doing sinful acts.
The new testament shows what humans have to do by the example of Jesus. Sacrifice is done for the sake of others shown when Jesus was crucified. Like turning the other cheek or working multiple jobs to support our children that is the sacrifice Jesus was showing. Judgement should be done by God in revelation not for humans to do because there are two stories to every case. We cant be sure of our judgement. Like i told you the story of a woman about to be stoned to death.
You see, you read, analyze and form your own conclusion. Think for ourselves and find out the true meaning of Gods teachings. This is my analysis and there are many others.
@ peace: I must ask: how do you live with your hypocrisy? Let me guess; the bible is the word of God, unless it gets uncomfortable, in which case the plain and obvious meaning of the bible means something entirely different relative to the basic english wording of the Bible.
Seriously, how far do you go with your mental gymnastics?? The bible says what the bible says, unless why the bible says conflicts with my world view, in which case the bible is wrong in what it says.
How do you sleep at night?
Why do you despise God? What did God do to you? So much hate.
Not sure how you got from having your beliefs challenged to accusing whip of "hating God."
From the "Peace" "Advocate" no less.
Peace be with you my brother.
Do not deny the fact that it is a possibilty. A fair assessment.
"Why do you despise God? What did God do to you? So much hate."
The ONLY people who can hate God are believers. Talk to them. I don't think there are any in this discussion.
You sure didn't think this through, did you?
Dont attack the messenger , argue the message. A sign of losing the arguement.
The "message" was only applicable to believers, but apparently foolishly addressed to non-believers.
Do you hate Lex Luthor for trying to kill Superman?
We see hate by others but fail to see our own. Simple incomprehensible.
I'm sorry, PA, but the problem is you've been unable to clearly identify a reasonable sender.
Therefore: return to sender......
We can't HATE something we don't think exists.
All could hate as all could love. Show me love and I show my love.
Asking someone "why do you hate God?" is part of your argument?
I like your (dishonest) strategy, peace. Nice job.
You teach a child to hate, it would hate. You teach a child to love, it would love.
"You teach a child to hate, it would hate.'
Definitely. So why do so many Christian HYPOCRITES CHOOSE negative verses about gays rather than CHOOSE the more important Golden Rule?
Won't love you unless you love me first...hmmm...let me scan the NT for that verse.
....Oh, here it is: Love your Enemies...and Love your neighbor....no, wait. Those aren't relevant to Peace's philosophy.
Oh, here we go...Matthew 5:46 "What good is it if you love those who love you..."
Ooops...not that one either....
Hard to "advocate" peace if you require the other party to be peaceful. But that's just me.
I send you all my love.
Why do so many Christian HYPOCRITES CHOOSE negative verses about gays rather than CHOOSE the more important Golden Rule?Why do they foster hate instead of love?
I love you Doris.
"Please stop with the hypocrisy and dishonesty." Maybe you should try to follow your own advice first.
Where is NT is god a monster?
It's pretty clear that god does some horrific stuff in the OT. But what, according to the bible, is the nature of god? God is unchanging.
Malachi 3:6: "I, the Lord, do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed"
So, if he's a monster during the time of the OT, and if his character does not change, God continued to be a monster during the events of the NT, and he continues to be a monster to this day, and always will be a monster.
Or, when the bible says that the Lord is unchanging, it must be that I'm misinterpreting it?
Many Christians say everything from the OT is valid in the NT, so at least according to many Christians, God is still a monster in the NT.
Some things look horrible in OT only if you superficially look at them. I already showed detailed explanations of some of them. But the important thing to remember is that we can only look with our limited eyes, using our limited moral and knowledge. God has totally other means to work so what appear horrible to us may be actually good from a totally different viewpoint.
And yes, god doesn't change. But what drastically changed was the world when Jesus came. Many of the things God did before were only applicable in a pre-Jesus world. OT is mostly just history. All it counts now are the teachings of Jesus.
@ transformer: sounds like you're tap-dancing as fast as you can to try to avoid the reality of the words of the bible. God orders the wholesale slaughter rod innocent infants in the OT – but that's okay, because it was a different time??? Do you really believe that??
And i understand, philosophically, the argument that god – being a god – can do anything, including things that are clearly morally repugnant to humans. But my question is, why would you want to follow a god, and love that god – on pain of suffering eternal torture if you don't – when that god's moral code is so bad? Why are you selling yourself so short? I bet you know in your gut that killing innocent babies is simply wrong. So why follow a god who orders just that?
"Some things look horrible in OT only if you superficially look at them"
So the torturous drowning of EVERY pregnant woman, child, baby, fetus and embryo on the FACE OF THE EARTH only looks bad if you look SUPERFICIALLY.
lol. You are just making a fool of yourself. Your PATHETIC EXCUSES are a joke.
I'm afraid you don't understand. You spent several minutes reading (cherry-picking) the most important book in the world and you think you know it all, when countless others dedicated their whole lives to it and still couldn't say they know all.
The so called horrific acts of god were always justified. They were always directed against a long time and cruel enemy, who perpetuated the aggressions against Israel from father to son for many generations.
They always had a very limited geographic and temporal scope, only when the very fate of Israel depended on that.
You judge things using your relative moral, based on your culture and your limited knowledge. Even in our days, what is moral for some is immoral for others, what is repugnant for some is normal for others. Like the child marriage, which is associated with pedophilia in western societies but is legal in some cultures.
Killing innocent babies is sad indeed but is not always wrong. I already showed such a case (applicable by God) but there are cases when even us, humans, have to make such a painful decision.
"The so-called horrific acts of God were justified...." All we need to know about you, trans.
And now we know that you would stand by and do nothing or actively participate in "horrific acts" if your God tells you, via the Holy Spirit, that it's okay to: _____________ (insert any "non" horrific thing God tells you to do)
Yes, let me fill the dots;
Help people see the light
Highly unlikely, trans, considering you've justified what are clearly immoral acts. This is why your "relationship with Christ" is knowledge-based....incapable of exercising wisdom.
"The so called horrific acts of god were always justified." NOT "SO CALLED", they were HORRIFIC. The TORTUROUS DROWNING of EVERY CHILD, BABY, FETUS, and EMBRYO on the FACE of the EARTH is nothing but HORRIFIC. How HEARTLESS can you be? Let us know.
Please see if you can become the FIRST CHRISTIAN in history to tell us what SINS were committed by EVERY child, baby, fetus and embryo on the face of the earth to justify the HORRENDOUS killing of them.
Any answer? Will you be the FIRST?
I am sorry I couldn't make you see the light. But what you see as "clear immoral" is only your opinion. Moral is not an absolute value, even less so when reported to god. Please read about morality and ethics when you have some time.
Remember, observer...you'd be hard-pressed to find a Christian who today genuinely cares for the living...just the unborn are of concern.
They barely "love" one another. You should see how much time they invest in the lives of their fellow Christians..."discipleship" ain't what it used to be (circa 1st Century CE).
"They always had a very limited geographic and temporal scope,"
(Gen. 6:17) “Everything on earth will perish."
(Gen. 7:20) “The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.”.
If you get a chance some day, why not sit down and read a Bible?
When Hitler killed children, he was an absolute monster doing the devil's work.
When God killed children, he was doing a good job.
Yes..God is JUDGE and Giver of Life..Hitler is not
transframer said: "Moral is not an absolute value, even less so when reported to god. "
Although I'm not quite sure what he said, he may be the first Christian on here to have admitted that morality is relative.
Someone wake Chad, Russ, that other "objective morality" guy up and let them know, please!
Not sure what you are talking about DROWNING: is it the flood? As for the sin, I am not the first one who knows the answer, every Christian knows it: every man is born sinful, the sin is inherited from Adam (it's called the primordial sin)
Morality from the Bible:
Slavery is okay
Discrimination against women, gays and the handicapped is good.
Beating helpless children with rods is good.
KILLING EVERY child is fine if God does it.
Those are some "morals" you support. Disgusting. Heartless.
there WAS sslavery..and not slavery as you think of (ante bellum usa) and the Bible does record discrimination done against women and handicapped..but never approved of it.
Indeed! Observer...he had to remove any physical toxicity of the abomination of those OTHER people from the countryside (even though he promised not to do anything like that again to Noah).
Maybe he should have borrowed some bulldozers from the Egyptians and totally pushed the soil into the Med to ensure the land would be "Holy."
Sorry. I thought you might have read a Bible.
God TORTUROUSLY DROWNED every pregnant woman, child, baby, fetus and embryo on the face of the earth in the Flood.
You are CLUELESS about naming ONE SIN COMMITTED by them to justify KILLING them.
I read the bible..i do NOT see the word "TORTUROUSLY" at all in it....are you sure youre reading the Bible?
Slavery is okay
Discrimination against women, gays and the handicapped is good.
Where are all of these?
Where did I say the primordial sin justifies killing babies?
(Lev. 25:44-46) “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country,
and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them
slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
you may need to read some history first, slavery was not invented by Israel; also women were not discriminated, they actually had a better social position than in any other culture of that time; there are women saints and Mary is the most loved women figure in the world.
What about gays and handicapped?
Christianity Today says that a poll shows only 61% of Evangelicals have read the Bible from cover to cover...and they claim to have a relationship with Jesus, who. according to the book of John chapter 1(ff), is the "word made flesh."
Hmmmm...not such an intimate relationship afterall.
Clearly, transframer should actually study the whole "word of God" a bit more.
Come on, trans! "Study to show thyself approved."
lol So it's fine to beat your slaves with a rod without punishment.
Go read a Bible and then come back when you can find ONE PLACE where it says it's a sin or abomination to OWN another person or that you can't SELL YOUR DAUGHTER into slavery/s3x.
Goodby in case you'll never be back.
Bible is a difficult reading. You don't have to read it to be a good Christian. In fact many Christians are (or have been) illiterate.
@observer: the answer is simple:
Do to others what you want them to do to you. (Matthew 7:12)
"Do to others what you want them to do to you. (Matthew 7:12)"
Amen to that. So why do so many Christian HYPOCRITES CHOOSE negative verses when dealing with gays rather than CHOOSE the MORE IMPORTANT Golden Rule?
Interesting how many Christians/Catholics/LDS/JW/etc. have closets full of excuses.
While you are correct that one need not be literate to be a "good" Christian, one might expect a "good" Christian to have some measure of wisdom to understand that the clearly immoral acts depicted in the OT/NT and done by God are just that...immoral.
"I read the bible..i do NOT see the word "TORTUROUSLY" at all in it....are you sure youre reading the Bible?"
You're reading the Bible, you're just not THINKING while you read. ALL drowning is TORTUROUS. Death is not immediate. People desperately gasp for air and frantically struggle to try to find one breath. Even SIMULATING drowning is considered TORTURE. THINK while you read.
you seem to be the one grasping at straws..trying to make your case...you add to it..sure..drowming could be tortourous..but then again....that's life and death...you think God is immoral for doing it? I don't..He is Judge over life....life is hell...
"there WAS sslavery..and not slavery as you think of (ante bellum usa) and the Bible does record discrimination done against women and handicapped..but never approved of it."
PLEASE read a Bible SOMEDAY.
God's right-hand man Moses said that women were prizes of war.
God HIMSELF said that he didn't want priests with ANY DEFECTS (vision, crushed testicles, etc.) in HIS churches.
UHH..I have actually STUDIED it (unlike you..you admitted youonly read it) the Bible does NOT say women were prizes of war.thats your assumption and without regard to culture...second...GodALLOWED disabled to be in the "church" actually its the Temple...he didn't allow them to be pRIESTS..as an EXAMPLE..you don't connect the dots very well
"you seem to be the one grasping at straws.."
Is drowning a torturous experience? Yes or No? Sound like a good way to die to you?
God does have some good morals like the Golden Rule, which is ignored by many Christians when dealing with gays.
He also has some terrible morals like slavery, discriminations, beating children, etc. He certainly set horrible hypocritical examples himself, but many of his supporters don't think God needed any morals..
It is up to mankind to use their collective intelligence and common sense to make their greatest efforts to determine the best morals for the betterment of man.
Whoever doesn't follow the good morals established by Jesus (even when dealing with gays) is certainly not a Christian. There is nothing wrong in Jesus teachings, no slavery, discriminations, beating children or anything like this.
I agree. I was talking about the father of Jesus, the guy who sends people to hell.
I thought that Jesus was God, or a part of God at least. So one part of God (the non-Jesus part) is a horrible monster with a terrible moral code – genocide, ra-pe, slavery, killing unruly children, etc, but the Jesus part of God has entirely different attributes? But that still doesn't alter the fact that Non-Jesus God is still a monster. Remember – God is unchanging. Says so in the Bible.
Lets start with the end...Revelation 20: 1-15 (another immoral abomination exercised by God and his beloved son).
Oh goodness you're like the Anti-Fred, sq. fred always starts at the beginning.
Maybe that's what's missing – middle earth.
I'm up for J. R. R. Tolkien's works to be the scripture of a new religion...
wait a minute.....where is the rule that we cannot use figures of speech?????youre making that up playing semantics there..enough of the foolishness..when we say Jesus came into my heart or whatever..its going to be obvious it is a figure of speech
Is this intended for me? I didn't mean to imply that figures of speech are not allowed. Of course they are.
You can use expressions, but when someone says "The heart is the love receptor", that just sounds wrong.
It was a poor choice of words, a wrong turn of phrase.
what made you think I didnt know that?? the point was..hearing voices is NOT the SOLE symptom to diagnose someone as such!!! You seemed to imply it was
I don't get the whole "You have to open your heart to God" thing. Why did God create us such that some of us need to do something special to receive his signal? I'm not talking about free will and choice here. Why isn't the signal clear channel? Why is it encoded such that I have to put myself in some other hyper sensitive state? If I only did that, it would all be clear.
I'm sorry, this notion is preposterous. You might as well say, If you would only let me hypnotize you, I could get you to see God.
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 1 Corinthians 1:23
From the very beginning they knew that what they were selling came off as total BS. That's why they built in all those verses degrading the value of wisdom and reason, and valuing child-like gullibility and the herd instinct of frightened sheep.
Indoctrination is almost like the way the military breaks down new recruits, getting rid of their individual impulses to reason through orders, and builds them back up into loyal followers. The chief step is getting people to love Jesus more than anyone real in their actual lives. Once people love Jesus that much it clouds their better judgment about the whole faith.
I have made similar observations. I wonder if there is any science on the potential link between religion indoctrination, basic training, brain washing, etc.?
You have completely given a false impression of that passage of scripture. The next line that you omitted is "but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, [it is] Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." So it literally says after the line you posted that they, the called, did not believe it was foolishness but the wisdom of God. That passage says the exact opposite of what you wrote.
God can see what would happen if he set the situation up differently than he did. He could have chosen to bring into heaven anyone that wears a blue shirt more than a green shirt and eats lunch at 12:30. God knew everyone that would accept Jesus Christ after being chosen to do so.
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit–fruit that will last–and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."
If that greatly bothers you, then pray to Jesus and accept Him as your savior.
@wilbur: here's a thought. Why don't you try saying, "It is my BELIEF that ..." and then put in what you want to say about your god, as opposed to stating is as if it were a fact. Do you have any comprehension at all about how arrogant you sound when you make these bold-faced statements about why your god does what your god supposedly does? Does a virus KNOW why Albert Einstein acted in certain ways, or what motivated him to not do certain things? A puny human claiming to know why god does things????
Just say it's your belief – no one will fault you for that.
I think I already explained that. I am getting it from divine revelation and studying it from the Bible. You don't know how doomed you sound to me .I suggest you start reading the Bible and not thinking about it as a fairy tale.
"No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you." - Jesus Christ
"I suggest you start reading the Bible and not thinking about it as a fairy tale."
The greatest path to disbelief is an open-minded read of that book. Don't go around assuming people haven't read it due to them having a different interpretation than you, different interpretations of it are present throughout all 41 000 sects of christianity and not many of you can even agree on the meaning.
Stop worrying about the 'souls' of others-no evidence that one exists, and start worrying about yourself. As for being doomed...how are you so certain? I don't live in fear of an after life that there is zero evidence for. I don't live in fear of a god that there is zero evidence for. Maybe if you stopped focusing on the afterlife and saving imaginary souls, you'd have a much nicer life and be able to put more emphasis on it.
TruthPrevails1, How do you know that no proof of the soul exists? How do you know that no proof of God exists? Hmm?
@ wilbur: getting your information from "divine revelation" sounds like you suffer from delusions. How do you KNOW that these are messages from god, as opposed to the workings of your mind? Do you ever see things, and hear things, when you sleep? Are those messages from god, or merely dreams – the workings of your mind?
Unfortunately I don't have the answer for everyone, nor do I want to get into an argument over who is right. However, I have experienced Heaven and seen God Face to face. I know this is going to draw a lot of negative comments from non-believers, but please keep you mind open it you are truly seeking the reality of the kingdom of God. It is real which is perceived by your spiritual nature, by the way which we all have. For most it is asleep or kept suppressed, but once awakened will perceive God's love and bring comfort to a dry and thirsty soul. You have to get past anything that sheds doubt on the truth how much God loves you and open your heart to him. You don't have to get involved in some religion that turns you off, which I know for most who blog here have been. There is a path between religion and doubt that leads into Heaven which anyone can experience.
Here is an excerpt from a book called Unveiled the Mysteries of Life, page 113. "The kingdom of heaven is not of this earth. You will not find it here. I tell you this. You can find it when you seek it with all your heart. This means every fiber of your being. You will only find it when the search becomes the most important goal of your life.... It takes an amazing faith to believe in what you can't see with your human eyes. Why do you think you cannot pursue the kingdom of heaven because you do not know it? But you do know about it, because it is where you came from and where you will return.
Another amazing book on how anyone can experience heaven is The One Thing and Secret of Life. It is a step by step guide for anyone who is open and willing to experience the kingdom of heaven and see God face to face. You can post negative comments all you want against what I just said, but truly it is up to you to find the truth. I hope you can, God Bless you in your search!
@proud: you might be right. It is in the realm of possibility, given that, theoretically, anything is possible. However, consider this: I have seen the face of God, and the face of god is a triple-decker peanut butter sandwich. Without jam. Now, you may think I'm crazy, and you'll comment negatively, but it is true, and real. God is a giant peanut butter sandwich.
Sorry, but when someone posts what you just posted, this is what a lot of us read.
So, is there any rational basis for accepting your claim over my claim, or are both claims equally weak?
This is the whole point, which is about reason and why most people can't get beyond it. Did you ever hear it say, you must die so you may live. I think Jesus said that. What he meant is that you most die of your intellectual mind, some call it left brain, so your spirit may come alive. There is nothing logical about spiritual experiences. I am not saying you become mindless or hallucinate like some think. Palms 46:10 says, "To Be Still and know I am God." This comes from learning how to meditate and change your focus from the outer world and seeking the kingdom of God. You have to quiet down you outer person so your inner person or spirit can come alive. There is not enough room here to explain this but if you are interested get The One Thing and Secret of Life, it explains it step by step.
There is no reason for you or anyone else to invalidate what I have experienced. You don't know what have seen nor what is possible is you open up your mind and soul. If I hiked up Mount Etna and came back and told you some incredible things I have seen, would you doubt me or believe it even though you never have climbed the mountain. I tell you I have seen heaven, not from drugs nor did I have an NDE and walked with God. Yes I had a divine encounter and experienced a love that is so far beyond any conditional love you can experience here on earth. Nothing you can say will ever change that. I just hope that something I have said will change someone's experience of God. Will it be you Wipp?
"intellectual mind, some call it left brain, so your spirit may come alive"
so trn off your intellect and you can convince yourself of anything you want.
Honestly, turn your brain back on, you are making no sense.
@ proud – Okay, you say you walked with god. I say that i saw the face of god, which resembled a triple decker peanut butter sandwich. Are you saying that i didn't experience that? Who are you to determine in what way the lord manifests himself?In fact, when i saw god, god spoke to me, and told me that it was Satan who was deceiving you into thinking g that you had been experiencing god.
God said that it was my duty to warn you of Satan, who is the Master of Deceit.
"You have to get past anything that sheds doubt on the truth how much God loves you and open your heart to him."
You ask us to keep an open mind about God, but isn't this asking us to do just the opposite? People have very serious doubts about God for good reason. Doubts that he's as good or as powerful as people make him out to be. Doubts that he answers prayers. Doubts that his salvation is actually just, and a host of other doubts especially if he even exists. They've always had these doubts, but you would just want us to aside our better judgment and blindly trust in something that just doesn't make any sense. Why?
There is no evidence of any gods nor anything "spiritual". Most likely what you are experiencing is delusion.
You may have had an experience you could not explain, but putting god in instead of an actual reason makes no sense.
How did you exclude all other possibilities?
igaftr the whole point of what I and others are saying is that you will never see any physical evidence of anything spiritual. You can only experience this with you heart or spirit. The heart is the love receptor and once you invite God's love in it will expand like a dry sponge hitting water. It is from there you will get your evidence beyond any doubt. As you allow your spirit to mature things will become more clear. I hope you can find your way past logic and into the heart of God.
You need a lesson in biology. The heart pumps blood.
What you are referring to happens in the brain.
There is no part of the brain that has been identified as anything that could receive "spiritual" or "psychic" signals at all.
Your experinces that you claim are god, can be explained with many other possibilities, but thank you for a prime example of delusional thinking and willful ignorance.
you are using willfull ignorance....haven't you learned yet when we say the "heart" its a figure of speech? of course we know the heart truly pumps blood and nothing more..but as the seat of emotions..its a figurative speech..I guess you rant against people who say "I love you with all my heart" etc....
Yes, kermit, it is a figure of speech. That is the point. If someone wants to posit a receptor for spiritual experiences, then it has to be literal, it has to be physical, and there has to be defined mechanism in which we can detect the interaction. Otherwise, it is reasonable that we don't lend any credence to what amounts to feelings generated by brain circuitry.
Mothers have drowned their babies because god told them to. Personal experience is not reliable. It is the most convincing "evidence" for the experiencers but is the least convincing for everyone else. Yes, you may be right. But I find it far more likely that your experiences have their causes in neuroscience and psychology.
There is nothing "spiritual" if you define it as existing outside the physical. If something, such as god, can interact with the natural world, then that something is part of the natural world, and the interactions would at least in principle be detectable.
Are you implying that there are 41,000 ideas on Trinity or no Trinity?
There are probably an infinity of ideas about this setup or composition of imaginary god/gods.
Every single person who believes in a deity believes in a different version of that deity since no two people have the exact same concept of who or what God is in their heads.
Odds that one of them has it right? 1 in the total number of minds that have ever concieved of the idea of God in all of human history, so about 1 in 100 billion.
@ never: I have to quibble with your odds. They are based on the assumption that, out of all of the conceptions of deities in human history, at least one is correct. There is no basis for this underlying assumption, given that they all could be wrong.
So, really, the lowest odds are zero – there is NO chance that any of them are correct.
"Faiths and Fingerprints" is one of my favorite sayings. No two are exactly alike.
It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one . . . But this const.itutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of facti.tious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the Quakers, live without an order of priests, moralize for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe.
Thomas Jefferson -– To John Adams, 1813
In the New Testament: "The Lord our God is one."[Mk. 12:29]
the concept was introduced in the Old Testament book of Isaiah written around 700 years before Jesus, copies of which were preserved from 300 years before Jesus in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Isaiah 9:6 prophesies "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Thus a son who will be born at a particular point in history (to a virgin or young woman[Isa. 7:14] is also "Mighty God, Everlasting Father". This is the Christian teaching that God exists simultaneously as the Eternal God and also as a Son (Jesus) born to a virgin. Isaiah refers to the Son as "Mighty God, Everlasting Father".
John is more explicit and writes that Jesus Christ told the Jews: "I and the Father are one".[John 10:30]
The Gospel of John starts, as generally understood and translated, with the affirmation that in the beginning Jesus as Word "was with God and ...was God",[John 1:1] and ends with Thomas's confession of faith to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"[John 20:28]
The same Gospel also suggests that Jesus' use of the term "Son of God" inferred essential equality and unity of Father and Son—"…making himself equal to the Father"[John 5:18] [19:7] and saying "I and the Father are one."[10:30] John also suggests a hierarchy when Jesus is quoted as saying, "The Father is greater than I,"[14:28]
As soon as Jesus Christ was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and landing on him. And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'"[Matt. 3:16–17] [Mark 1:10–11] [Luke 3:22] [John 1:32]
• "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.'"[Luke 1:35]
• "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"[Heb. 9:14]
• "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God." [Acts 7:55]
• This passage contains many complex formulations of the relationship between God, Christ, and Spirit, including "the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead,"[Rom. 8:11] "all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God,"[8:14-17] and "the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."[8:26-27]
• "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"[Matt. 28:19] (see Trinitarian formula). It has been claimed that writings of Eusebius show the mention of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to have displaced a request by Jesus that his disciples baptize people in his name, but all manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew contain, without any variation, the mention of the Trinity.
• "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."[2 Cor. 13:14]
Gospel of John has been seen as aimed at emphasizing Jesus' divinity, presenting Jesus as the Logos, pre-existent and divine, from its very first words, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God";[John 1:1] and "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."[1:14] Other passages of John's Gospel interpreted in this sense include "before Abraham was born, I am!",[8:58] "I and the Father are one",[10:30] "The Father is in me, and I in the Father",[10:38] and "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'"[20:28]  John is also seen to identify Jesus as the Lord whom Isaiah saw,[Jn. 12:34-45] [Isa. 6:1-10] while other texts[Heb. 1:1-12] are also understood as referring to Jesus as God.
Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 fit this pattern. Therefore, when Paul says:[Titus 2:13] "The great God and savior, Jesus Christ" he is identifying Jesus Christ as the great God.
There you have it, Holy Trinity explained.
And Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons and bunches of others will quote you chapter and verse, word for word, from that old book to 'prove' otherwise. Meh!
Explanations of the trinity are as nonsensical as describing a one-dimensional triangle.
Okay, you're quoting from the Bible.
What, exactly, is the point you wish to try to make?
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
The important thing is that it's Jesus himself who want to stress that God is one. You'd have expected him to fit himself into that little equation if he actually felt that he was part of God, right?
Yes..God is one GOD...yet manifest in THREE persons Father, SOn and Holy SPirit..not three gods (notice i did not differentiate by using words like "another" "different")
So Jesus is part and parcel of God – Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Sure.
Which makes the whole "ultimate sacrifice of Jesus" doctrine laughable. God sacrifices a tiny bit of himself, to himself, but not really, because god knows that tiny bit – in human form – will come back to life after 3 days, then ascend to heaven to rejoin himself.
Interestingly, this thread segment brings about the reason for "Incarnation in the Flesh" is necessary.
That's why God incarnated in the flesh, to offer the "fully man part" of the "Fully God," that is without blemish, as the "Ultimate Sacrifice" for the "Remission of Sins."
Question for you on the Vermont article answer please.
So, Jesus was an avatar of God like the Hindu gods are fond of assuming?
What kind of "ultimate sacrifice" could that be? Sounds more like creating a Mii for a Sim game, and then deleting it after you finish playing. God's supposed to be immortal. How could assuming a human form and killing it off mean anything to the person he was sacrificing it to, himself? If all-knowing, he must have known what human pain and suffering already was, so he wasn't giving flesh a try just to feel what we do.
Any way you slice it, it just doesn't make any sense. Explanations of the trinity are as nonsensical as describing a one-dimensional triangle.
Well, that was a load of BS.
Seriously, this is like a little kid talking to other little kids about Superman. Superman this, superman that.
It's all meaningless until you first demonstrate that god exists. Otherwise, it's just verbal max-turbation.
It is even more meaningless for you to be on this site. At least, if we, as Christians, convert a non-believer, we helped save their eternal soul. I don't know what you get out of converting someone to atheism. Or why you invest so much of your time into attempting to convert people.
guidedans, we are here partly because stupid morons like you get to vote and influence how the rest of us have to live, with your insane beliefs. So p!ss off and go fsck yourself.
Belief is a choice. There are so many gods imagined by man and not one can be shown to exist. So the respect you demand goes both ways.
How exactly is it that Atheists are converting? We don't have a book telling us how to live unlike you. You convert because you think you are saving a soul, yet outside of Gullibles Travels a soul doesn't exist. I don't need saving, I am not doing harm in this world and the only person my disbelief affects is me, not you, so focus on your own life and keep your nose/belief out of other peoples.
Why does it bother you so much that we have a voice? Your numbers are dwindling. The only way you can possibly hope to prevent that from continuously happening is to move back to the dark ages. People use the internet, the internet connects voices of all kinds and eventually some voices are no longer heard due to the overwhelming facts against. Christians are losing ground and this is a good thing. It will be a pleasant day when your bigotry towards LGBT; your stepping in on women's rights; your stepping on the education of innocent minds...will no longer be paid attention to. You've lost the battle on so much and it won't stop. Like many other religions before yours, yours too will be buried in the history pages of our species.
BTW: We will continue to post and put the facts out there while you continue to lie and keep with the same futile threats of eternal damnation and silly outdated stories written by primitive man to fool the gullible. You don't have to post here either, it's not a christian blog!
Hey, guidedans – what it by converting an Atheist to a believer you are condemning them to hell forever? What if there is a god, and that god values people who use their brains, as opposed to people who rely on faith? There is nothing to determine that scenario is less likely. So, in reality, you may well be condemning people.
This is an answer to Bob who asked some questions about atrocities in the Bible, like this one:
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
I have a couple of points to make:
1) First of all you are very misinformed, these questions are nothing new and are addressed in various places, you just have to search. For example, a very detailed explanation of Numbers 31:17-18 is given here: http://christianthinktank.com/midian.html
2) However good or bad it appears, Old Testament doesn't apply anymore, from 2000 years, since Jesus fulfilled its rules and wiped out all sins of men. The only rule that applies now is simple: "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself"
That is not what the bible says.
On a couple of occasions, Jesus allegedly said that the word of god is unchanging, that it would remain so until the heavens fell. He did not take anything away from the bible, simply added to it.
He re-affirmed the OT is "gods word" and verified that it is still completely in play.
The Old Testament doesn't apply any more? So the Ten Commandments are out the window?
Matthew 5:18 – the supposed words of Jesus: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
So, no, the Old Testament, at least according to that Jesus dude, still is applicable.
I skimmed the page. Babies were slaughtered? It was their parents' fault. 32,000 female virgins were taken captive? You can be sure there was nothing nefarious about that at all.
Any civilized person can see Numbers 31 for the atrocity it is.
Maybe, but here is a question if you knew that a baby called Hitler would be what he has been later, what would you do? Is killing him an option?
I'm not sure what the point is, other than to prove Godwin's Law. Are you saying all those slaughtered babies were going to grow up to be Hitlers?
if you "knew" what this baby would become in the future, then you would be omniscient, or godlike. So, sure, god sees the future, and knows this baby will become Hitler.
# 1 – god made him that way in the first place, and/or put the events into play that would, in time, influence the baby to turn into an evil man
#2 – just kill that baby
But to kill the baby you need certainly – something only a god would have.
So, basically, your example is meaningless when applied to humans
Still doesn't get around the plain wording of Samuel – slaughter the infants ORDERS the Lord.
nasty, nasty, nasty
Exactly my point: only god can do it but humans can understand
Exactly! Your god is an immoral monster, and if you don't see that slaughtering innocent infants is immoral, then YOU are immoral as well.
So you really ARE saying that all those babies would've turned into Hitlers?
Please define moral/immoral
Trans: do you honestly believe that it is acceptable to slaughter innocent infants?
If you hesitate for even a second, or start to try to come up with some rationalization, so that you don't have to diss your religion, then I really feel for you, because that religion of yours is harming you.
But yourself acknowledged it's OK for god. I may just add that even for humans is sometimes acceptable, in real cases.
He did not say it was okay for god to indiscriminately kill infants.
Will you answer my question? Were all those infants going to grow up to be Hitlers, and is this why god slaughtered them?
"Please define moral/immoral'
Tough, but I can give a good example.
Allowing someone to be punished for your own transgressions instead of accepting your just puishment is immoral.
Standing up and accepting the consequences of your actions is moral.
Christianity is based on the first example, so christianity is a good example of what is immoral.
every single thing most humans consider evil is something that harms another human in some way. This is because evil is subjective and we are the subjects. To say r a p e, murder, stealing, cheating and lying are evil or bad or wrong is to accept that these are only wrong when viewed from the perspective of another human.
The meaning of the words "fulfilled"and "accomplished" is a technical matter and can be discussed. But the true spirit of Christianity is this one law: "Love Your Neighbor as Yourself" which supersedes any other law. Almost any other rule/law can be deducted from this one.
That's the Golden Rule. It existed long before Christianity, and is inherent in humans. You don't need Christianity to follow the Golden Rule. And a lot of what's in the Bible breaks this rule
It's not inherent at all, it's actually totally against human nature, against most basic self-preservation instincts. This is why most people can't do it. This is why Jesus is needed
@ trans – if it was not inherent in humans then humans as a species would have died out hundreds of thousands of years ago. You can see the same behaviour in other higher order animals, especially mammals. Empathy, co-operation, sharing, protecting the weak: these are inherent evolved traits.
Umm – you DO believe in evolution, right?
"It's not inherent at all,"
Huh? What is your evidence of that?
No I don't believe in evolution and there is no behavior in animal kingdom which could be even remotely likened with "loving the neighbor"
Hi Doris, glad you asked. The evidence is yourself. Do you love me (not in a romantic way) ?
@ trans: okay, you don't believe in evolution.
Really, that's all I need to know about you. Lets just hope you don't have children.
"No I don't believe in evolution and there is no behavior in animal kingdom which could be even remotely likened with "loving the neighbor"
Hilarious, but wrong. Start with the studies of Chimps done by Jane Goodall, and then countless studies since then , PROVING animals use language, create culture, use tools, and co-operate and share.
Sorry, you are completely wrong.
And evolution is ongoing, whether you believe it or not, it is proven, and is in the DNA of every cell in your body.
@transframer "No I don't believe in evolution "..... hey!, I don't believe in electricity, we should get together sometime!
Oh, thank you. So much for "Love Your Neighbor" is inherent. I guess it didn't work for you.
I don't know who you are, but here is the opinion of a professional:
“There is a popular image of human evolution that you’ll find all over the place … On the left of the picture there’s an ape … On the right, a man … Between the two is a succession of figures that become ever more like humans … Our progress from ape to human looks so smooth, so tidy. It’s such a beguiling image that even the experts are loath to let it go. But it is an illusion.”
Bernard Wood (prof. of human origins, George Washington Univ.), New Scientist, 2366 (26 Oct. 2002), p. 44.
"actually totally against human nature, against most basic self-preservation instincts. This is why most people can't do it. This is why Jesus is needed"
You need Jesus to treat your fellow human beings with kindess?
Yes please. It's actually more than kindness, but even a sincere kindness (from the soul) to ALL people is very difficult to achieve alone.
@ trans – I can love my neighbour , but hate what religion does to people. It makes then follow an immoral code. It encourages them to be stupid. I don't know if you're American or not (based on some spelling I would guess you are) but it absolutely staggers the mind to learn that close to half the US population does NOT believe in evolution.
You're using a commuter to talk, in essentially real time, with people around the world. Where diid that capacity come from? untold scientists over the years working together, discovering new methods, improving on old methods. using the scientific method.
This is what biologists, zoologists, geologists, etc, etc, etc have been doing for hundreds of years, to come to the point where there is no reputable group of scientists in the world who do not believe evolution. It simply boggles the mind when I hear someone say that they don't believe in evolution. they are being intentionally blind to vast mountains of evidence. Why? Because they have been indoctrinated into an astonishingly backward viewpoint by other religious people.
Do i hate you/ of course not – I don't know you.
But, based on your view of evolution, do I hate what you've become? Yes, yes I do. Religion is dangerous. religious fanatics are even more dangerous.
And trans – that quote about "apes to humans"? No – humans didn't evolve from apes. Both apes and humans evolved from an ape-like ancestor. Scientists have mapped the genomes of primates, and now can tell us where this branching happened. All based on DNA analysis.
Open your mind. It can be frightening, at first, starting to let go of long-held beliefs. But it is well worth it!
If you need Jesus to treat others with kindness then you are most likely a psychopath and need to seek help.
Your quote is off target. We see animals co-operating all over. We see other animals treating others with love and kindness. We even see rats helping rats that are strangers to them out of traps and sharing food. Sorry, but there are a lot of examples of animals living by the golden rule, everywhere.
"It's actually more than kindness, but even a sincere kindness (from the soul) to ALL people is very difficult to achieve alone."
If you would be less kind to someone without your belief in god, then this is a problem that YOU have. And we should all steer a wide course around you, for who knows what you would be capable of if you lost your faith, even for a day.
Your quote that you got from creation.com from Bernard does not say what you think it does, and is not affirmation of creationism. It is just another puff of smoke you are tryng to use to obscure reality. That is all there is on that site, smoke and mirrors.
All he meant was that the commonly shown picture of ape to man is inaccurate. He said nothing about the FACT that we did evolve from an ape-like ancestor.
Transframer says: "...there is no behavior in animal kingdom which could be even remotely likened with "loving the neighbor"
Including behavior from the Body of Christ. And this failure to love thy neighbor, despite Transframer's claim that humans "need Jesus."
Yet, the Christians themselves refuse to follow the simplest of his commands (especially "Love your enemies...") and pout about being persecuted when they're held accountable.
One would think the transformative power of the blood of Christ would show some results, Transframer.....and yet...notta.
Proof enough your God doesn't exist.
Sorry but you can't. You just think you can. Being kind from time to time with certain people is not "Love Your Neighbor". Which includes that religious fanatic you are talking about.
This is, again, why I said it's counter human nature and almost impossible to do in absence of Jesus. And evolutionism is really not the subject right now, it's too large to deal with it here.
Trans, I do feel empathy for you that you need an imaginary friend to convince you to love your neighbour. Does this mean that when you find out that there is no god you go on a murderous rampage??? i certainly hope not.
It's basic human kindness and goodness.
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
But is this really good advice? For example, you may be dead set against receiving any help or charity for yourself, but if you follow Jesus' version of the Golden Rule you'd feel justified in not offering any help and charity to others, assuming that they'd feel as you do. So, how is that helpful? Wouldn't it be better to go outside of one's own situation and have empathy enough for others to understand what they want by putting yourself in theirs?
I see some confusion about God and God's Incarnate in the Flesh.
God the Father, Son (Lord Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit are One Godhead Three Persons. The Triune God, the Holy Trinity, Has Three distinct "Hypostases" of One Shared Existence That is Eternal in Generation.
God's Incarnation in the Flesh, fully God and fully man, Jesus Christ, went through the entire earthly life and "Ultimate Sacrifice" as the fully man part—hence the pleading with God the Father at the Garden of Gethsemane. The Passion of Christ was in the flesh, the fully man part, for the "remission of sins." The resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ was in the flesh, the fully part man, for bringing us eternal life. No human can resurrect without Jesus Christ having had to resurrect in the flesh, the fully man part of Him while on earth.
See Colossians 2:9-14 & Hebrews 4:15,16 for example references from Scripture.
For some. For others, it's quite different. :roll:
The concept of the Triune God is not exclusive to Christianity.
Hindus worship Brahman, the One True God in three persons, Barhma, Vishnu and Shiva (Creator, Sustainer, and Destroyer) and were doing so for thousands of years before the Abrahamic religions cropped up.
From the Puranas (a Hindu holy book some 3,000 years old):
'O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.' The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva, becoming manifest to him, replied, 'Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one.'
Roman Catholic Church makes no bones about how, when, and where the idea became Dogmatic to their faith (and therefore it's offshoots like Protestantism). Say what you will about the RCC, they've been very good at keeping records of all their Councils throughout the ages.
It was not until the Council of Nicea that the Trinity properly became dogma.
Arius, who was the major thinker in non-trinitarian circles, taught his students that The Son was not to be identified with the Godhead and that He was only God in a derivative sense, and since there was once when he did not exist He could not be eternal.
It was a long and bitter fight between Arians and Trinitarians, but in the end Arius lost after Constantine threatened anyone who opposed his Creed with exile.
Their own Catechism explicitly says that the Holy Trinity is an idea that is unexplainable and must be taken on faith – in other words, best not to think too much about it....
Personally, I think the character of Christ is much more compelling without making Him "The Son" of the Trinity.
As a mortal man, it means that His righteousness was a deliberate act of will – not a magical, immutable characteristic.
Vic – can you please say that in common, everyday English for us?
"No human can resurrect in the flesh without the Lord Jesus Christ having had to resurrect in the flesh, the fully man part of Him while on earth."
"See Colossians 2:9-14 & Hebrews 4:15,16 below for example references from Scripture."
So Jesus was a part of God, but in human form? Was the Jesus part only human? Or part human, part god, or with some godly attributes?
Was Jesus separate from God?
I'm not being dense intentionally – I just do not understand the theology of it. Don't get me wrong – i certainly don't believe it. But I'm trying to understand the theological basis for it, so that I can better understand the thinking of believers.
We are told in Scripture about the Holy Trinity in separate verses that describe God the Father, God the Son (Lord Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. Those verses are for specific purposes, and from them we obviously see the Holy Trinity. Otherwise, humans cannot possibly come up with that concept on their own. The Holy Trinity is imponderable to the human mind.
I would like to take this opportunity and refer you to Dr. Jack Hayford who specializes in that part of Christian Theology.
@ Vic: thank you for that. Here's a thought, especially when you say that this concept is imponderable to the human mind. People have always used "fuzzy descriptions" when they are unsure about what they are thinking, or else when they want to obscure the meaning of something. Labelling something as "imponderable to the human mind" sounds an awful lot like "don't look too closely at this".
The human mind can ponder an awful lot of stuff. If this truly is "imponderable" then how and why do you believe it?
Please see branch right below. It was intended for here.
We believe in God as we detect Him naturally with our sentience and observing this wondrous and mighty creation of His, the universe and life in it, this existence, hence "Natural Revelation."
We are also told in the Scriptures, the "Special Revelation," about God, and that is consistent with our sentience.
Now, while we detect, are told, and believe in God, we don't necessarily comprehend His Metaphysical Form, hence the "Holy Trinity."
Okay ... So, how do you detect God "naturally"? How do you know that a sunset is God, for example, as opposed to just a sunset?
How do you know that you "detect" anything?
How do you know what you "detect" is not only a god, but YOUR god?
How have you eliminated all other possibilities?
Plain and simple, it's all a bunch of nonsense and no amount of twisted "holy spirit" word salad will provide any real evidence to show that god is nothing more than wild imaginations based on fictional mythology.
As long as you follow the teachings of God you will be accepted. Atheist included. Question is how do you know the teachings of God?
So it's okay to take my unruly children to the edge of the village and stone them to death? THAT'S in the Bible.
It's okay for me to commit genocide? THAT'S in the bible too!
Owning slaves? Yup – bible.
Ra-pe? Oh yeah – that's there too!
You know, Peace, following parts of the bible would seem to me to be, well, a really, really BAD idea. What do you think?
Care to actually cite your sources?
The Old Testament, vengeful, wrathful, spiteful, smitey God of the Jews.
Genocide: 1 Samuel 15 –
15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
(15:2-3) "Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Nice god ya got there, bud!
It was such a vicious unprovoked attack it wasn't like the Amalekites and Israelites were already at war with each other for centuries and that The Lord wasn't concerned about corrupting the the souls of his chosen people from outside groups like the Amalekites. After all the Israelites didn't completely follow through with decimating everything or like in other groups and ultimately allowed them to continue on going against the commandments and let them or their culture to continue and nothing bad ever happened to the Israelites right?
Nothing like generalizing your point to be specific.
@ kevinite; your God, in your Bible, commands the slaughter of infants.
Just stop for a second that actually think about it. These infants would have been entirely innocent. they would have had nothing to do with whatever conflict their fathers were involved in. An omniscient god would know that.
And yet your god ordered the wholesale slaughter of infants.
So, what's your justification/explanation for that? And of course I will as-sume, when you don't reply, that you have run away when faced with the horror that is in your precious book.
Try actually reading and studying the bible for yourself.
why domnt YOU try reading it for yourself? The babies go to heaven....are you saying they should have lived here and not heaven?..are you saying they are gone for good??? According to the Bible they go to heaven..whats so bad about that? WHAT is so bad about a God who gave them life and is Judge to take the life away?
If they destroyed 10% of everything, they decimated it. That's what decimate means. The romans would decimate the troops if they failed in battle...one in ten of the surviving warriors were killed as punishment. The root dec ( meaning 10) should have been the first clue.
Yes, whipp... and the smiting goes from the sublime to the ridiculous:
(Numbers 15:32-36) – "Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; 34and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses."
Then there's that one about that bear mauling the sassy kids too...!
Kevinite!!!! Kev!!!! Where are you????? Kevie? Hellooooooo??????
You requested sources and examples -these were delivered.
So, anything more to say about the "Good Book"?
Actually I have been trying to respond, but nothing has gone through.
There isn't a one size fits all approach by God to apply to every person in every situation. In the instance with the Amalekites due to the consideration that The Lord had in that due to what would happen if the Israelites didn't do those things which he commanded what would the result have been? In the Old Testament we did find out because the Israelites didn't completely follow through and the results especially the spiritual results, which are eternal as opposed to ones mortality, were horrific.
"Actually I have been trying to respond, but nothing has gone through."
There's a list of hints about the word filter on page #5.
To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven.
Decimate was not used in the scripture, that was my word. I was referring to completely destroying everyone and every thing.
@ kevinite; whether or not the Isrealites carried out god's commandment, the bottom line remains that the order was issued by your god to slaughter the infants. I'm sorry, but are you so blind as to see that saying something trite like there is a season for everything, doesn't cut it? There's a season for slaughtering infants?????
Try to stop, for just a second, and listen to your inherent morality – the morality that all humans have – and ask yourself this: is it appropriate, or good, or moral, in any circu-mstance, to order the wholesale slaughter of defenceless, innocent infants?
And if you are unable to see how horribly immoral that is, then your religion has really taken you on a dark, dangerous journey away from your humanity.
Again you are referring to that in those days it was necessarily considered by The Lord to have to use those guidelines to the Israelites. That somehow that was actually necessary to get the point across abut the importance of those commandments, and back in those days it was necessary to put a physical punishment to the violation as opposed to say a more severe spiritual negative outcome for us today if we continue to do the same violation and in the end we become more accountable when the final judgement comes than even for those who were put to death for violating the sabboth.
You mean because The Lord has his reasons for taking the lives of children which he does to every child that has ever died before or since whether by the sword or by famine or disease. In the big picture of things ones eternal live has greater implication than just the temporary mortal life and just because The Lord decides to take away the lives of certain innocent children doesn't mean that they would receive eternal damnation. In fact I believe it is quite the opposite fate for those children.
The "LORD GOD" deemed it necessary and exceedingly important to speak to Moses hundreds of times about this (and other ridiculous minutia), but no "commandment' like, "Thou Shalt Not Own People as Slaves" or "Thou Shalt Not R.ape and Abuse Children"?
Ah – you want the exact, specific instances in which God was a jerk in the OT?
How about Leviticus 26:27 wherein God tells his Chosen People that he'd punish disobedience by forcing them to eat their own children?
Or Numbers 31:17 where God command the wholesale slaughter of all the children and women – except, of course, for the vir/gins that God said to take as slaves.
Speaking of slavery, the rules for how to treat them is laid out in Leviticus 25:44 and Exodus 21. Fellow Hebrews become indentured servants, but heathen foreigners are chattel to be passed down as an inheritance – oh, and you can beat them to within an inch of their lives so long as it takes the slave a couple of days to die.
Deuteronomy 22:28 lays out the rules for rap/e. If the man is caught, he has to marry his victim and pay her father 50 pieces of silver. The girl, of course, has no say in the matter because they're simply property too, as Judges 5:30 reminds us.
Remember – the murder of children should be a joyous occasion!
So seize that who/re's infant and dash it against the rocks, just like the happy, uplifting Psalm 137.
" I was referring to completely destroying everyone and every thing"
Then you chose the wrong word. Annihilate would be better, but decimate is normally only used for populations, such as a viral breakout decimated the population ( meaning it killed 10% of the people), or a fire decimated the woods, meaning it burned 10% of the total.
There are other words, check a thesaurus.
Who needs a thesaurus or a dictionary when you've got The Bible!
It's not like words actually mean anything. In the Bible, 1 day can mean any length of time at all, and an hour can go on for 2000 years.
Kev, these are just stories from a book of mytholgy. You are confusing reality with mythology...... FICTION!, you are debating FICTION against reality. Believe all you want but stop citing the bible as evidence of something... As someone mentioned, it's like arguing about what the "force" is in Star Wars..... it's simply fiction.
Ah – you want the exact, specific instances in which God was a jerk in the OT?
How about Leviticus 26:27 wherein God tells his Chosen People that he'd punish disobedience by forcing them to eat their own children?"
27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
(Leviticus 26:27 KJV)
What does that have to do force feeding their children?
"Or Numbers 31:17 where God command the wholesale slaughter of all the children and women – except, of course, for the vir/gins that God said to take as slaves."
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 21: 14-17 KJV).
Just like where The Lord takes the lives of innocent children for varied reasons whether by the sword, or by disease, famine, natural disasters or many other reasons in the eternal scheme of things one's mortal life is just temporary or for a moment compared to eternity and just because The Lord takes these children back doesn't mean that those children are subject to damnation. In fact it is my belief that it is just the opposite for these innocent children.
To kill every male among the little ones and every woman that hath known a man. You are dealing with influence of the counsel of Balaam, which was a corrupting influence to the Isrealites. Again it is dealing with the concern of ones eternal soul, which for you guys that doesn't mean anything, but for an eternal Deity's perspective the POV could very well be different than yours.
As for the virgin girls to be kept, where does it say that they were to be kept as slaves?
More to follow.
"The Lord takes these children back doesn't mean that those children are subject to damnation. In fact it is my belief that it is just the opposite for these innocent children."
Supply quotes from Numbers, etc. that God KILLS children just to send them to heaven. Show us that you didn't JUST MAKE IT UP. Good luck.
"But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 21: 14-17 KJV)."
So tell us what "keep women children for YOURSELVES" means to you? You don't suppose it has anything to do with s3x or slavery, do you? lol.
If you care to observe in my response to the fate of innocent children who have been killed that two of those key words are "I believe". I never stated it was provable fact. This is a belief blog here, but since you are so into proving everything you could present irrefutable proof that my beliefs are wrong.
When it comes to what it says in Numbers, if that is your take is that keeping them for pleasure slaves is what it meant that is your take. The thing is you didn't actually present the irrefutable proof showing that your take is the correct one.
Where it comes to the conditions regarding the women who were secksually assaulted, just where is it that the assailant get's away with it scott free?
Also, just what other options would have been available for a female victim in that day and age anyway? And since you we didn't actually ask such a women directly ab out the situation, we are just looking at such a situation with our own modern-tinted colored glasses and not through their own glasses.
The Lord preferred that Israel should not have a king, but since Israel were choosing to have a king anyway, The Lord then issued guidelines as to setting up a King for Israel.
Just like where it came to choosing setting up a King, even though that was not what The Lord actually preferred, The Lord also setted up guidelines for the Israelites who were getting involved in brining others into bondage. There was no indication that The Lord preferred to have the Israelites bring people into bondage, otherwise there would have been a commandment to just straight up go and bring others into bondage whether the Israelites liked it or not.
As i said before and i'll say it again, what you mentioned are sins of humans. What humans want to do to impress God. Not what God wishes for us to do.
@ Peace: can you read? If so, please read Samuel. It is God ORDERING the slaughter of infants. It is not prior, or resulting actions, of people. This is an order from your god, in your bible. Your god is ordering the slaughter of infants.
Let me ask in the way you'll understand, do you have proof that God said it. Recordings? Videos? None. Who is samuel? Is he a king/phophet who may have used God for his benefit? Or is it a misinterpretation because it was written by umperfect humans.
If you understand the teachings of God you do not have to memorize the bible to be more moral. Read, study, analyze written texts and form our own conclusions. Think for ourselves.
"teachings of God" - "do you have proof that God said it."
Who did "God" **really** speak to & 'teach' then - doc.umented, verified and bona fide?
@ Peace – let me answer it in a way that you might understand. Samuel? The BOOK of Samuel???? From the Bible???????
Have you read the Bible? Read 1 Samuel 15 – where the Lord ORDERS the slaughter of everyone – men, women, infants, all of the farm animals – and then get back to me, okay?
I have read the warren report, does not mean i believe everything that was written.
@ peace – you commenced this thread by stating "As long as you follow the teachings of God you will be accepted. Atheist included." I pointed out that the "teachings of God" as set out in the Bible, included certain horrible things, including the lord ordering the slaughter of infants".
My point being, following the teachings of god might not be all that that great a strategy for life.
@ peace..... and as I said before, sin is a man made concept along with god. There is no evidence to support god as real....
It seems your not reading my posts, you keep repeating yourself.
PA: "what you mentioned are sins of humans. What humans want to do to impress God. Not what God wishes for us to do."
How do you know what are sins? How do you know what God wishes? How did you come by such information?
Cmon Doris, we know what sins are through our daily lives. Killing a sin. Lie is a sin. Cheat sin...selfishness sin......our courts, laws, regulations tell us. Problems are the implememtation, enforcement, punishments.
Did God have something to di with this? Depends on your belief.
PA: "Cmon Doris, we know what sins are through our daily lives. Killing a sin. Lie is a sin. Cheat sin...selfishness sin......our courts, laws, regulations tell us. Problems are the implememtation, enforcement, punishments.
Did God have something to di with this? Depends on your belief."
Yes, it does. But let's clarify something first pertaining to U.S. law:
Our courts, laws, regulations tell us what things are legal or illegal. They don't address any issue in any way to indicate a relationship to some alleged deity.
Unless you can prove otherwise, I have to go with the notion that "sin" is a man-made concept.
No deity in government. Separation of state and chruch. Rightfully so. Imagine if a wrong god is being followed.
But our courts and government seek that guidance. Morality. In our laws, rules, ethics, etc. that is the whole debate , what is moral. We are analytic beings we can figure it out.
PA: "But our courts and government seek that guidance. Morality. "
I don't think so with courts really. They seek to uphold the law that applies to everyone regardless of belief. Although you may think what they are upholding reflects to some degree morals in light of your opinion on the source of morals. Now for government in making law, I can see how your representation reflects your ideals and where you think morality comes from versus my representation and my opinion.
I agree. Our courts uphold the law established by the people. Government are peoples ideals. Both laws and ideals by the people lean on morality. If not, there is an outcry. Thats where the debate begins. What is moral?
Did you know what jesus said when asked what to do when a woman being accused of adultery by the village and was about to be stoned to death according to Gods law? Jesus said: cast the first stone if you have not sin yourself.
The old testament focuses on Gods judgement. Jesus showed the way.
"The old testament focuses on Gods judgement."
Yes. And that helps explain why there are so many atheists and agnostics.
Even with the advent of the new testament, humans stll have a hard time understanding Gods teachings. Humans uses the bible for their own self interest. As you could see with the medieval inquisitions, spanish inqusitions and up to now. Example, to justify war we always say a fight against evil. Discontent, a reason for the establishment of other beliefs, religious denominations.
So a homosexual who follows the bible is also eligible?
@ Truth: as long as he/she is a genocidal, child-stoning, slave-owning ra-pist, then being gay should be no bar whatsoever!
whipp: :-) I just want to see peace back peddle a little. I don't believe peace put much thought in to what he said. Such an exclusive little cult he belongs to!
@ truth: peace won't back peddle so much as run away without making a sound. Eventually they all do, because ultimately they are faced with something for which they have no answer – when they know, deep inside, that – HEY! – that doesn't make sense!
I don't expect to change any minds, but maybe – just maybe – a doubt or two might start to take root.
Absolutely, Jews, muslims, catholics, christians, convicts, prost:tutes, non-believers, sinners as long as you follow the teachings of God. Meaning, do good, what is moral and if we commit mistakes, sins we confess (admit to it) and to have sincere repentance, remorse to sin no more. Its hard but we try. Effort counts.
Forgot to mention in my above post, h0mos.exuals, transgenders, heteros, all are eligible as long as they follow the teachings of God. ALL.
"as they follow the teachings of God. "
What teachings? And tell us exactly how you determined they came from your deity.
"follow the teachings of God"
As if anyone knew what that is, or if there are any gods at all. All we have is a bunch of stuff written by men who claim it is "gods word" but it looks much more like they just made all of it up.
What "teachings of god" do you now of, and how do you know it is from "god"?
You claim to be an advocate of peace while pushing your god agenda, which promotes friction, which can lead to a lot of things, but never peace. People like you have caused a lot of wars in the name of peace.
Wow peace, you sound like a christian who actually follows the golden rule.
Golden rule? One who has the gold makes the rules? Dont think so. Pls educate me.
Teachings of God. Morality. We determine it through our daily lives.
"Teachings of God."
What teachings? How did you come by this info?
Going about our daily lives, and there is still no sign of any gods. That is baseless belief.
For all you know, you walk with satan and call him god. baseless belief.
"As long as you follow the teachings of God you will be accepted."
No...to be accepted, you must die in glorious battle.
No. To die in a glorious battle is what machismo mentallity preach. Our culture, we are attracted to power as you can see in this blog. Figthing, showing who has bigger you know what. We are attracted to superficial things, our nature. Me included.
No. It is what Norse mytholgy teaches, as opposed to what you have stated is from christian mythology. There are many myths to choose from.
No myth, our flawed reality. Example, Ask a woman who she likes more a skinny guy or a hunk.
As far as myth, far more likely myth made up by men than anything, and what does a womans preference have to do with your point as far as flawed reality. Your example missed the mark
peace: Are you christian?
I am born catholic. Pls dont label me in any religious denomination. I also point out sins done by the roman catholic church or catholic churches that is not a teaching of God. But i was greatful because it introduced me to this man called Jesus and God.
Glorious battle...machismo mentally.....we like power....power superficial....we like superficial...women preference superficial (men too, we like someone pretty than ugly) ....flawed reallity....
Discussion drifted that way.
Do you follow the alleged teaching of the alleged God? Do you kill witches? Do you advocate for the legalization of slavery? Do you keep kosher?
A further, other legitimate question for Christians (another believers of other religions): can you think for yourself and present support for your views WITHOUT referencing or quoting from your scriptures? Or does the entire basis of your belief system stem from something written by someone else?
Can YOU think for yourseves and support your science without using quotes fro scientists and other readings? lol..youre so funny and hypocritical
I can use my senses to observe the world around me. i can experiment, and then repeat those experiments, in order to come up with working theories of how the world works. for example: I can drop objects of varying weights off of a tall building, and time how long it takes them to fall. form that, i can derive that there is something (in this case the downward acceleration due to gravity) that acts equally on objects regardless of weight. And then, 10 different people can REPEAT the same experiment, and come up with the same results.
I do not have to rely on a 2000 year old book.
oh you speak out of ignorance..YOU think I rely on a Book alone? YOU think I do not do that myself? wow...I experience miracles in my lifre..I experience Gods presence...I see it happen in other peoples lives..I see it repeated as well! oh..but you may say "do you touch him, smell him, see him" etc....sir..you don't smell touch or see gravity..but you see effects of it and you experience the effect of gravity as well....don't be so assuming gullible to think that's what we do...ask people (I thought that's how you know things..by asking)
@ kern; Okay – you say that "you experience miracles in your life". Can you give us some examples of these miracles, and the process you went through to determine that these were, in fact, "miracles" i.e. a suspension of the natural order and laws of the universe as we know them? For example, someone might say, "My mother was dying of cancer, but we prayed for her, and she got better. It was a miracle!" That's not a miracle. Diseases, including cancer, spontaneously go into remission.
Gravity can be measured and modeled and predictions can be made. We can attribute effects to gravity and be sure about it. None of this is true for personal experiences. I am not saying that you do not have them. I am saying that there is a difference in "unseen" forces and personal experience. I would also claim that it is not reliable to attribute personal experience to god. Mothers have drowned their babies because god told them to. It is much more likely that these experiences are neurological and psychological.
Says the fool using 2000 year old info that has been debunked numerous times over. Pot meet kettle. At least science doesn't stop looking for answers and at least science gives you remedies to survive in this world! You're holier than thou attitude is sad!!
TP: As a Christian, I love science : ) I can also combine the Bible with my daily walk.
The Bible tells us that knowledge will increase and as that happens, unbelief will increase. Can you not understand we are aware? It doesn't reduce God from our perspective, only points out the fact that this is how it is. Your unbelief does not blot out Faith. In the end, we know whom we have believed...
Do you accept the science that disproves parts of your bible?
" I can also combine the Bible with my daily walk."
You can, but you will tend to walk into things. You can get a much better sense of reality if you look around while walking rather than looking at a baseless book.
igaftr: God is Spirit. He uses dreams, visions, nature, signs and wonders... you really need the book (Bible) to sort the clues. Research is a daily walk with your mind on The Word.
You do realize the "god" "spirits", or any "supernatural" things have yet to be shown to be real, right?
You THINK there is a god, but have no evidence of any of the gods men have worshipped.
Won't you feel foolish when you are hanging upside down before Quetzlcoatl and have to explain why you worshipped the wrong god all those years.
@onthebeech: So God uses visions, dreams, etc. Okay, so the people who say that God told them to kill their children – they weren't crazy, or delusional? That was just God speaking to them?
The problem is, how does one differentiate? Are my dreams messages form God, or just my brain doing whatever it does while I sleep?
igaftr and whip:
How do you differenciate? As soon as you are able, write down the message. Do not overlook the details. Should they continue, take note. After some time, you should be able to pick out the theme. Common sense is the rule. I have never received a message to hurt anyone. Ever. Should you find yourself to be a "receiver" reading books on handling and/or understanding prophetic abilities should be your next course of action. Sometimes, the messages are for you and you alone. Others may not be. These my dears, are the things that make life all the more interesting.
What are you talking about?
Trying to "sort the clues" with the often wrong bible is ludicrous. The writer didn't know if there were any gods any more than anyone else.
The bible is the word of men.
You may claim it was inspired by god, for all you know it was inspired by satan, and considering the violent, bloody history that belief in the bible has shown, it seems far more likely to be the work of satan, than an benevolent god.
"Should you find yourself to be a "receiver" reading books on handling and/or understanding prophetic abilities", consult a qualified mental health professional, because you are clearly delusional.
@ onthebeech: what you are suggesting is truly terrifying. There are many, many mentally ill people in the world, who, because of the chemical makeup of their brains, lack what you call common sense. they hear voices, get messages, and then they sometimes act on those. And in their minds, what they are doing is completely appropriate. Because they have been brought up to believe in some "god" who sends messages. And when they receive this messages, people are killed as a result.
Yet another reason why religion is such a cancer.
God speaks to people all the time.
In 2008, He told Boyce Singleton Jr. to shoot and stab his pregnant girlfriend.
Deanna Laney heard God direct her to bludgeon her three sons, aged 9, 6 and 15 months. Only the youngest survived.
Blair Donnelly received instructions to stab to death his 16 year old daughter, Stephanie.
Christopher Varian was slaughtered with a cheese knife after God spoke with one of his employees.
God told Jennifer Cisowski to dash her infant's head on the rocks, so ""Just like Jesus raised Lazarus, I threw the baby on the stones by the pool."
Khandi Busby got a direct message from God advising her that the only way to save her 6 and 8 year old boys was to toss them off a bridge in Dallas. Fortunately, they survived.
Angel Rico says he received a divine command to strangle his 4 year old son, so he did just that and left him at the side of the highway.
Lashaun Harris threw her 3 young kids into the San Francisco Bay after God let her know that He wanted a human sacrifice.
All of these people have been found legally insane by the judicial system, so if you hear God's voice speaking to you, it's time to check with your local psych ward to see if you need a huggy jacket.
stop pretending you know anything about psychology and how to diagnose people..notice all those examples you gave are result of other issues as well..not just hearing the voice of God..hearing voices is not the basis to commit someone
kermi: You just don't stop...it's rather amusing that you fail to see your own hypocrisy.
"hearing voices is not the basis to commit someone"
Maybe you should tell Andrea Yates Doctor's that. It is well noted that religion can be a contributing factor to what is probably already a diseased mind. It's extremism...not much different than someone reading your bible and taking it literally-ie; bashing a child's head off a rock. Look at the Schiables....they held so firmly to their belief is prayer that two innocent children died needlessly at their hands. Not all christians are like this but there are these extreme cases...even you should have a difficult time disagreeing there.
Still cant read and use context can ya? I was refrerring to using "hearing voices" as the ONLY reason to have someone commuitted....mental illnesses are never diagnosed based on ONE symptom......
Andrea Yates case had more than just hearing voices...which led to her killing her children...you read to much newspapers..btu not enough on psychology
Andrea Yates diagnosis was religious psychosis...seems you don't pay attention.
You unbelievers here don't get the fact that God speaks and works in fabulous ways! No voice is telling me to commit a violent act against some person. I don't suggest it either.
God's teachings are a blessing in my life.
Paracusia is most assuredly a symptom of mental illness.
While some small number of people have sporadically experienced it without accompanyting mental disorders, it is a symptom of any number of psychiatric illnesses including schizophrenia, temporal lobe epilepsy, delirium; dementia, focal brain lesions, neuroinfections (like viral encephalitis), cerebral tumors, PTSD and bi-polar disorder, to name but a few.
Auditory hallucinations accompanied by delusions such as high frequency of occurence, verbal complexity, heightened emotional response and the belief that other people share the hallucinations are a very strong indicator of psychosis.
yess..A symptom..but not the ONLY symptom as you seem to imply
But beech it's not a fact. We may consider the universe a wondrous thing but that is not evidence of a god.
That's your mantra, not mine.
Thank you for providing a fine example of willful ignorance.
I'd call it "Bliss".
God has a pretty voice. Got me hooked.
Yes, Ignorance is bliss. It's nice the voices in your head are pleasing to you but there is still no evidence that it is "god".
Hmmmm. My "Bliss" comes from knowing God is...
When the Holy Spirit reveals a truth to you, and you see that it indeed occurs, personally, I have to admit the evidence is there. I recognize that something greater than myself is at work.
Well, I had commented on this numerous times now in this blog. As a Muslim and speaking of Islam. I need not to defy the realities around me just to justify that my faith is right. Islam has come with a core system that supports science and critical thinking. A system that promotes logic and doesn't undermine one's intellect. This is in part to address the issue that fellow Christians face when asked about the bible and scientific inaccuracies therein. From an Islamic perspective, the bible is not an accurate record of the word of God. I have looked up couple of versions of the bible and it is mind boggling the discrepancies found from one version to another (I don't understand how a person can manage to stay focused on course with this in mind). In fact, this is THE one reason why a lot of Christians have doubts about their faith, certain theologies therein, and also can't carry out a logical debate/discussion about faith, science and the concept of God (please don't be offended. I just want to give a constructive feedback at the apparent reaction atheists and agnostics have when they engage you in discussions). This of course leads to a lot of people giving up the faith (Christianity) unfortunately. I know a lot of people nowadays that tell me that they were born Christians but don't really believe in God! The existence of God is the truth and we have that in common among the three major religions in the face of the denial of God.
Now, why is Islam (at least in my view for now) a more comprehensive and presents a logical alternative (even though we believe that Jesus was the truth, Moses was the truth and their message was the truth). The simple idea is that the Torah and the Bible have been fiddled with by humans after the revelation from God. This is obviously not the setting to discuss and elaborate on this. However, the Quran is a book that has no contradictions whatsoever! A book that has 114 chapters in 600 pages that tackles all aspects of life. This book is in fact one of the biggest miracles of prophet Mohammed (Peace and Blessings be upon him) – other prophets had their own miracles as attested by the Quran, Jesus with raising the dead with God's permission for example, Solomon with ordering and having command of the wind by the permission of God, Moses with his stick and the red sea incident, Noah with the arc that saved him and others from the flood, etc (Peace and Blessings be upon all of those prophets). Those miracles are not comprehensive but rather some examples for some of the prophets.
The Quran was revealed in Arabic at a time where the people of Arabia were very eloquent and poets so the Quran came in their language and challenged their eloquence and challenged them to come up with verses similar to the verses they heard. The challenge is still ongoing for humanity to find any contradictions in this book but it is either there are no takers or (most likely) people are unable to show any flows in this divine book that has been preserved through generations for the past 1400 years ago.
To make this short, and to address a question that you had in regards to carrying out a conversation without referencing the holy book. Indeed, we can have such a discussion but we both have to abide by the same game rules. The same way you "demand" a proof for the existence of God (creator, Supreme Being), I would ask and demand that you furnish proof for the non-existence of the divine ent-ity or an ent-ity that created everything around us (call it God, call it Inventor, call it owner, whatever). Why is it that you feel that you have the right to ask of others to provide a proof when you have no basis or evidence to prove the opposite? By the way, this by no means allot to a weakness on my side for proving the above without referencing the Quran (the matter rather is easier than referencing the divine word).
I will start by presenting you with a quick overview of why I believe that the Quran/Islam is the right way to go. For one, I am fascinated by science and scientific discoveries. An engineer by background and hence my inquisitiveness and curiosity like many in regard to the universe and science is endless. With the context kept clear at the back of our minds (Quran was revealed 1400 years ago), I can't help it but to attest to its authenticity when the prophecies and proclamations therein become true and/or discovered in the 20 and 21st centuries. I will give you some examples: heard of the big bang? A verse in the Quran tells us that this is the beginning of the creation! Heard of black holes? A detailed description of black holes is mentioned in the Quran! Heard of hyperspace? A description of wormholes (openings to other universes) and the state of humans would be if they were to make it to other universes is mentioned in the Quran! This is of course in addition to more tangible experienced realities around us like the lowest point on this earth as told by the Quran. In addition, things like the condition of oceans in extreme depths (Darkness etc). All of which were impossible to know about 1400 years ago! What do you call this? Coincidence? Luck? Fairy-tales? All I am asking you is to be rational, reasonable and logical without the arrogance of the soul that could be detrimental to us! In other words, If what I said above makes sense, then either say so or take your time to think about this.
Is the above an enough proof that the Quran is the word of God? For some, Yes! For others, it is not! I am not sure why and would really appreciate your feedback as it gets perplexing at times when you see people that profess that they are all about logic and reasoning but when it comes to something they dislike or don't believe in, they switch off (throw logic out the window). You response should be within reason as well! Try to be convincing in your rational and elaboration to help me and others understand what's in your mind. One of the biggest issues I have seen with Atheists and Agnostics, they tend to attack Christianity and spend time and effort to show how it has all those flows and that God doesn't exist but they never offer any alternative. They always ask (like here for example) that Christians and people of other faiths prove that God exists without relying on the text within the holy book but then THEY will rely on the findings of scientists and the writings of scientist (so they do quote actual writings). The difference they claim is that this is SCIENCE! Using that claim (I agree that science goes through a methodology that gives us a certain level of confidence in the findings), wouldn't it be logical that you believe that the Quran is the word of God when you realize that it has talked about a lot of the scientific discoveries you have today and upon which you base your "belief". Also, would it be adequate to ask that you prove that the car parked in your garage doesn't exist? You are thinking that I am crazy! No, point is what is crazy is that you ask that people prove that the creator (inventor, architect) of the CAR exists while you firmly believe that the car exists but have no explanation (plausible and scientific) for how it existed.. Now this I can nonsense let alone talking about logic and rational.
Alright, I better stop now and will follow-up when I hear your responses hopefully.
As long as you follow the teachings of God you will be accepted. Atheist included.
Which teachings of which god?
And how can we know that the "teaching" are from a god, and are not human teachings, by people who would seek to control others by cloaking their words in purportedly divine authority?
Teachings of God = MORALITY
Development of moral applications. Our evolution
In the final analysis, each person chooses the moral standards by which he or she will consider himself or herself bound. No one his bound by anyone else's moral standards. No one is required to, or has any reason to, accept your opinion that there's any deity imposing its moral standards on human beings.
You're talking in circles again, PA.
How did you come by the teachings you speak of?
Jesus example. Not an easy thing to do.
"Teachings of God = MORALITY"
Only God's HYPOCRITICAL morality. It would take a tyrannical dictator like Hitler or Stalin to use the "morals" used by God in the Bible. Mass murders. Killing people for disobeying simple orders like not looking at something, etc.
Teaching of God is to love one another, turn the other cheek, dont judge. Not to force others but to offer guidance, a legitimate authorithy.
@ Whipp – I have no problems with Christians quoting scripture. The Bible is a beautiful and useful book, but most Christians do not understand its limitations – or at best choose to be blind to it's limitations. The Bible was written by humans, translated into other languages by humans, and finally interpreted by humans. However divinely inspired we humans may be to write scripture, we are still fallible, and we are prejudiced by our cultural norms, beliefs and our societal norms. Christians may diligently study the Bible, quote from it easily and use it as a tool to condemn others using, However, until Christians finally realize that the Bible, however divinely inspired, is a very human book, most will blindly follow it without really understanding its true historical context and significance.
Good post! My point from above is what i see as a tendency for some to blindly quote scripture, and use it almost as a shield. My thinking is that, if people can put something into their own words, it shows that they have thought it through.
I agree that there are good pieces of wisdom in the bible, and lessons that can be taken from it, about how to best interact with others. But the same can be said about other books: Lord of the Rings teaches about the value of friendship, and perseverance , and sacrifice for others. All very noble values, which are entirely secular.
The danger, of course, in saying that the bible – or any other scripture – is from a god, is that it imbues the words with authority they would not otherwise have. discrimination against Gay people, for example. "It's okay because it says so in the Bible!"
No – it's NOT okay – regardless of what some book says.
I am not aware of Quran reference to Black Holes. When you have a moment do you have some detail on that. Thanks
Here is a video that talks about it. Enjoy!
You can also read about it here (http://www.answering-christianity.com/mahir/black_holes_miracle.htm)
Thanks, I think if you keep the quoted verses in context where we are addressing spiritual things of God rather than attempting to put that which is spiritual into a cosmological context governed by known physical constraints (gravitational effect on mass, strong and weak force notwithstanding) we are more likely to understand the intent of the verses.
There is a sixth thing most people don't know about Jesus. He is eternal. He was not created. He is not a "son" in an earthly way. He is a Son in the way that He perfectly embodies the nature of the Father. He is the personal presence of God. He is one Person of our triune God, equal to the Spirit and equal to the Father, three Persons one Essence in perfect balance and harmony. In eternity past our Holy God pre-existed in perfect love among and within the Trinity, until the love overflowed and God's plan to create us to join Him in that eternal love was ready. And Jesus as the Word of Truth delivered the end of that plan to perfection, absorbing God's wrath and pulling His greatest creation from dark oblivion, and He reigns now as King of Kings. And on the edge of time in creation we are here to serve our King now and later in glory. Or won't you?
if he is eternal, there was no sacrifice.
thanks for clearing that up
@ sam: those eight words destroys the foundation for Christianity.
Well struck, sir!
NOT at all..what YOu all fail to see is that Jesus..the flesh died....not His whole being..it is still a sacrifice....so it does not destroy Christianity..you only say so cause you are ignorant of fully what it teaches
The "flesh" apparently died for three ays, then was resurrected and made whole.
Where is the sacrifice? Especially when God would have known, in advance, exactly what would happen.
How much of a sacrifice is it to go to sleep at night, and thereby give up some of your consciousness temporarily, when you know you'll wake up in the owning with no real loss?
It is a silly and flawed doctrine.
again uo speak of ignorance as to what sacrifice truly is..what Jesus had to go through..you don't seem to know what the death was....it was not merely "sleeping" try looking into the Bible and see what it says about death..and then youll see the logic of the sacrifice
@ kerm: this is why I asked the original question. I do not see any sacrifice. Telling me to read the bible doesn't help. What I see, from my perspective, is this: 2000 years ago, the worst thing that could happen to a man was that he would die without male heirs – sons – to carry on his bloodline. So, from the point of view of men (not women – they didn't count back then) the ULTIMATE SACRIFICE they could imagine was that someone with only ONE son (his only begotten son – see where I'm join with this?) voluntarily offers up that one son as a sacrifice. Therefore, a god with only ONE son who gives that son as a sacrifice for humanity is making the greatest sacrifice imaginable to those bronze age men.
From a story-telling point of view, for the time the story was told, it is a very powerful, compelling story. Imagine the effect it would have had.
But stop and think about it: Why couldn't god have sent a million Jesus guys to Earth, to be sacrificed all over the world/ He could have – he's god, right? If you want everyone in the world to believe in you and be saved, you would have this Jesus sacrifice in North America, South America, Australia, the Far East, Africa, etc. Why would a loving god ignore his creations in 99% of the rest of the world?
Because if THAT was the story, it would not be as powerful. If you have an infinite number of sons, losing just one is no big deal.
Again, can you explain this sacrifice? I do not understand it.
see here we go with the stupid blame game again..its always someone elses fault..Im sick and tired of hearing that.....God ignored no one...its the 99% who has done the ignoring....stop trying to justify with ignorance...
"Im sick and tired of hearing that"
Now you deserve being called childish! Who cares if you're sick and tired? Do our opinions hurt your wee feelings? Is your faith that weak that you're afraid words on a blog will destroy it?
Call it what you want but the same things you call us out on, you do yourself.
Have your imaginary friend...just keep it out of the public square.
Agreed, that is just one of many reasons millions of Christians do not believe the trinity doctrine, as it is not supported by scripture.
To be fair, the vast majority of Christians are trinitarians.
There are a handful of sects that don't buy into it, like Christadelphians, Rastafarians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th Day Adventists – but if you ask a Catholic or a mainline Protestant about it, they'll invariably play the "no true scotsman" card.
actually the Bible does show Trinity..your argument is out of ignorance....
"actually the Bible does show Trinity"
If one interprets it that way.....
What are we up to now – over 41,000 different sects, right?
The Trinity did not become formal dogma until the 4th century.
Nowhere in the Bible is the "mystery" of the Trinity explicitly stated.
Anybody who can worship a trinity and insist that their religion is monotheistic is capable of believing anything – just give them the time to rationalize it.
Not only that, Catholocism goes further and flirts with making Mary a god(dess), not to mention treating the innumerable saints as minor deities. In some ways polytheism makes more sense than monotheism. Think of the Greek gods and all their different domains, human-like foibles, and competing interests. Our world and its ills doesn't make sense in the light of one god (at least, as commonly conceived). Christians will remind me about Satan. Exactly! Satan is a major deity.
It is true that the vast majority of protestants and Catholics are trinitarians, at least based on the creed of their religion, however I would say a good amount of those do not even know what it means, much less studied the history of when it became church doctrine and studied the scripture to form their beliefs. It is sad when you hear news stories that on average atheists know more about the bible and doctrine than some who profess to be Christian.
That's true, the Trinity and atonement theology is nonsensical. If the Holy Trinity means that all three represent the one true God, then God, through his son Jesus Christ, tortured and sacrificed Himself to Himself, and then called it the salvation of mankind. If God is infinitely merciful, then this theology only proves that He is not. It's like a pis.sed off defendant in a trial that says, "I was wronged (by humanity's sin), and SOMEONE has to pay!" It makes God look like a petty and jealous deity.
Jealousy is God's primary characteristic.
It says to right in the 1st Commandment.
Very true, Doc.
It makes God look like a petty and jealous deity.<-yes..when one leaves out all the attributes of God..such as HOLY, JUST, RIGHTEOUS, JUDGE......but God is all those things..he does not chamnge..if he becomes UNjust, he is no longer God
What do you mean God doesn't change?
The rules in the game of pleasing Abraham's God changed drastically when He became His own father!
read my post again..i said God is Just, Holy And Righteous...he does not change..i said he does not become UNjust...read the context please..stop skimming my posts..thanks
How did you come by that info, kermi?
sorry...i dont see which thread youre referring to..what info?
Do you have a daughter? How would you feel if she was a ra/pe victim and instead of her attacker being sent to jail, the judge ordered him to pay you $50 and marry the girl? Is that justice?
Comprehension in reading God's truths, whether simple or complex, is difficult to minds that are clouded by sin. Those who desire to make their own rules and escape God's authority will close their minds and seek reinforcement from others in the same predicament. Sam's comments and the lemmings that followed (not Kermit4jc) are proof.
But perhaps my original comments should have provided one more layer of explanation. When Christ was crucified, He was separated from God for the first time ever in eternity. So aside from the physical and mental abuse he endured at the hands of creatures, I cannot imagine a more terrifying situation than to be cut off and isolated from God. As a Person who exists outside of time, Jesus' time apart from God will always be with Him. He indeed paid the ultimate sacrifice, and bought His people with His blood.
By the way Revrickm, God is infinite and merciful, but not infinitely merciful. Should God ignore the rejection of those to whom he gave life in the first place? Should God force anyone to be with Him? Is that petty jealousy, or righteous justice and love? Ponder on; you will sooner or later.
" Should God force anyone to be with Him?"
Force? How about provide verifiable, credible evidence. Gravity must love me more - its existence is testable, repeatable and clear (even if we don't know everything about it yet). Gravity's "punishments" are quite evident; and I guess it "loves" me when I don't float off into space or trip and painfully fall down constantly?!
You said, "Comprehension in reading God's truths, whether simple or complex, is difficult to minds that are clouded by sin."
All the more reason to listen to atheists when they tell you that you are clinging to fairy tales.
Since "sin" is a violation of a religious rule or law it is strictly a religious concept, and it only applies to those that subscribe to that particular religion. Atheists not only don't sin, they are incapable of sin.
Furthermore, all religious texts are riddled with contradictory rules and laws, ensuring that anyone who clings to such nonsense is all but certain to break some of them.
If even simple truths are too much to handle for believers, I guess that is as good as any explanation of why reasoning with believers is such a futile effort.
LinCA, you have defined sin incorrectly. Sin is not a man-created concept. Sin is any act or thought contrary to God's perfection and contrary to unity with Him. So sin includes any denial of God's authority. Man was created by God to be an eternal creature, and so Adam's sin has eternal consequences, bringing all of us down into a state of rebellion against God. Following the "reason" of deniers who reject God and hence reject their sin is a man-centered path into destruction, and is exactly the deception that Satan intended when he corrupted man. God's commands and law are not contradictory, or else He would not be God. No man is capable of keeping God's perfect law, that is why we need the Gospel and why He sent us Christ. Salvation does not come from anything we do, salvation has already been accomplished by what Christ did. The alleged contradictions in the Bible are more deceptions from Satan targeted at man in our fallen and vulnerable state. Every day I give thanks and praises to God that He opened my eyes and renewed my mind so that I ally myself with His plan, not Satan's.
Otoh2 don't be foolish, your existence and the beauty and order of the creation all around you (including gravity) are all the evidence of God you need. Even gravity won't protect you when you find yourself outside your flesh and outside the physical universe.
Holy fucking shit! The delusion is strong in you, isn't it?
You said, "you have defined sin incorrectly. Sin is not a man-created concept."
Bullshit. Everything about religion is man made.
You said, "Sin is any act or thought contrary to God's perfection and contrary to unity with Him. So sin includes any denial of God's authority."
Nonsense. Not in this country. In civilized nations your imaginary friend has no jurisdiction.
Before you get to claim that your imaginary friend did anything, you will fist have to establish that it exists outside of your fantasy. There is not a single shred of evidence for it. There is no reason to believe it is any more real than the Tooth Fairy.
Jesus Christ was pleading with God the Father at the Garden of Gethsemane becuase, when on earth, He was fully God and fully man, and that was not at random. The death in the flesh that is without a blemish was the requirement for atonement—for the remission of sins, the once and for all sacrificial "Lamb of God," the "Penal Substitution," all the sacrifices before were temporal. Accordignly, Jesus Christ always supplicated God the Father as a man, including at the Garden of Gethsemane right before His passion, and in fulfilment of the Scriptures. Jesus Christ did the same thing supplicating God the Father on the Holy Cross as a man, and in fulfilment of the scriptures, when He cried out "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me."
"22 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning."
"46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”"
"14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
"9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
"15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
All Scripture Is From:
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
All Scripture Is From:
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Why do you choose this particular version of God's word?
The New American Standard Bible (NASB) is known for being one of the most straight forward and clear translations from the Hebrew & Greek texts, and without interpretations.
That's the main Translation I have been using constantly for a decade now.
@ Vic "... and without interpretations". Sorry, Vic, but ANY translation involves and requires interpretations. Now, stop and think for a moment, of how many different versions of translations of retranslations of reinterpretations over two thousand years have happened. Do you think, in ALL of that human intervention, the supposed word of your god just might have been tainted? Do you ever stop to consider that the words from your bible aren't the "word of God" but are simply human constructs?
Something to consider, no?
"He was fully God and fully man, and that was not at random."
You are right, that was determined by committee...not random at all....it was determined by politics.
Colossians were the worst sinners of all in Gullible's Travels because they ate jumbo shrimp. (In reality nature had it's own way of dealing with the Colossian diet – and thus began the early form of colonoscopy....)
But how can eating jumbo shrimp be a sin? They're ever so tasty, especially with a nice piquant seafood sauce with horseradish! Any god who made THAT a sin is clearly evil.
Vic, while you are busy dumping crazy bible bile on us from your Christian book of nasty, let's take a look at some of the other guidance in that horrid book purportedly from your vicious "lord" that you seem to need to be such a slave to:
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
AE/dalahast, dalahast/AE, enough with your childish ad hominems already. This time, try to respond to my post instead of making yet more personal attacks.
Your belief in the racist, bigoted, and murderous Christian god of the nasty Christian myths is not healthy. It is a dangerous set of delusions, and requires the abandonment of reason. You should ask yourself, to help cure you of your horrid delusions, why it is that even the majority of believers in the world believe in a different god than you do, with wildly different rules to follow, and why your supposedly omnipotent creature can't do a better job of marketing himself over those other beliefs.
And no, you cannot claim to speak for "most atheists".
hmmm....first of all..define murder and provide proof God has no right to take life...life that He gave....i see yuo called Him murderous.....second...are you against God being ultimate Judge of all things?
Kermit: "define murder": No. Even you can't be that stupid.
As for your next stupid question, your god obviously does not exist. Get over your pathetic delusions already.
whats a matter? don't really know what murder is? are you caught in your own contradiction? For arguments sake..if there is a God and he is called a murderer..one has to prove he has no right to take life....
So if I donate a kidney to you I have the right to take it back?
"one has to prove he has no right to take life..."
Might does NOT make right.
The torturous DROWNING of every child, baby and fetus on the face of the earth without ONE SIN being committed by them to justify it, sure looks like MURDER to most decent people.
Nice try...thats not evidence that God has no right to take life..who said anything about Might? theres more to god than MIght...try again...show me evidence that God has no right to take life
I didn't say that God has no right to take life, just like man can execute people. And just like man, there is a big difference between justice and TORTUROUSLY DROWING EVERY child, baby, fetus and embryo on the FACE OF THE EARTH.
did you or did you not say murderously??
typo: should be DROWNING
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