(CNN) - The old man exited a car and immediately ran through the forest to what he remembered was a mass gravesite. “The Germans were here,” he said. "The people were in a row, and they just shot them in the back, one by one.”
Mikhail K, a man well into his 80s, said he was just a boy when he witnessed Nazi German soldiers massacre villagers in southern Russia in the 1940s. In 2012,photographer Markel Redondo accompanied him to a site near the village of Ladozhskaya in the region of Krasnodar to document his memories surrounding the atrocity.
Mikhail stood silently for a moment, “remembering and looking at the place,” Redondo recalled. "You could see there was something going on in his head.”
Redondo met Mikhail and other witnesses as part of an initiative by the Paris-based group Yahad – In Unum. The project aims to locate and document World War II sites where Jews and other victims were executed by Nazis and their allies throughout Eastern Europe. Yahad – In Unum has chosen not to reveal the witnesses’ full names.
Redondo spoke with CNN ahead of Days of Remembrance, when Holocaust victims are honored during the week of April 27-May 4.
There is no truth on that site, and stealing advertising is a sin.
So atheists are still going around with their scrappy, ragged, long refuted and worn out allegation/argument that Hitler was a christian. Really every time they do that is a DEMONstration of the Absolute, Complete and Total NONSENSE of atheism/evolutionism/cultism/paganism and idolatry. I lump them all together because they are always agreeing in one thing or another in this subject matter. In practice Hitler was more an atheist/evolutionist and a cultist than anything else, though he did pay lip service to the churches in Germany. Same thing do many politicians these days here in the US.
Please, for the love of God, shut up.
Letting go of superst.ition
Speakers in order of appearance:
1. Lawrence Krauss, World-Renowned Physicist
2. Robert Coleman Richardson, Nobel Laureate in Physics
3. Richard Feynman, World-Renowned Physicist, Nobel Laureate in Physics
4. Simon Blackburn, Cambridge Professor of Philosophy
5. Colin Blakemore, World-Renowned Oxford Professor of Neuroscience
6. Steven Pinker, World-Renowned Harvard Professor of Psychology
7. Alan Guth, World-Renowned MIT Professor of Physics
8. Noam Chomsky, World-Renowned MIT Professor of Linguistics
9. Nicolaas Bloembergen, Nobel Laureate in Physics
10. Peter Atkins, World-Renowned Oxford Professor of Chemistry
11. Oliver Sacks, World-Renowned Neurologist, Columbia University
12. Lord Martin Rees, Astronomer Royal
13. Sir John Gurdon, Pioneering Developmental Biologist, Cambridge
14. Sir Bertrand Russell, World-Renowned Philosopher, Nobel Laureate
15. Stephen Hawking, World-Renowned Cambridge Theoretical Physicist
16. Riccardo Giacconi, Nobel Laureate in Physics
17. Ned Block, NYU Professor of Philosophy
18. Gerard 't Hooft, Nobel Laureate in Physics
19. Marcus du Sautoy, Oxford Professor of Mathematics
20. James Watson, Co-discoverer of DNA, Nobel Laureate
21. Colin McGinn, Professor of Philosophy, Miami University
22. Sir Patrick Bateson, Cambridge Professor of Ethology
23. Sir David Attenborough, World-Renowned Broadcaster and Naturalist
24. Martinus Veltman, Nobel Laureate in Physics
25. Pascal Boyer, Professor of Anthropology
26. Partha Dasgupta, Cambridge Professor of Economics
27. AC Grayling, Birkbeck Professor of Philosophy
28. Ivar Giaever, Nobel Laureate in Physics
29. John Searle, Berkeley Professor of Philosophy
30. Brian Cox, Particle Physicist (Large Hadron Collider, CERN)
31. Herbert Kroemer, Nobel Laureate in Physics
32. Rebecca Goldstein, Professor of Philosophy
33. Michael Tooley, Professor of Philosophy, Colorado
34. Sir Harold Kroto, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry
35. Leonard Susskind, Stanford Professor of Theoretical Physics
36. Quentin Skinner, Professor of History (Cambridge)
37. Theodor W. Hänsch, Nobel Laureate in Physics
38. Mark Balaguer, CSU Professor of Philosophy
39. Richard Ernst, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry
40. Alan Macfarlane, Cambridge Professor of Anthropology
41. Professor Neil deGrasse Tyson, Princeton Research Scientist
42. Douglas Osheroff, Nobel Laureate in Physics
43. Hubert Dreyfus, Berkeley Professor of Philosophy
44. Lord Colin Renfrew, World-Renowned Archaeologist, Cambridge
45. Carl Sagan, World-Renowned Astronomer
46. Peter Singer, World-Renowned Bioethicist, Princeton
47. Rudolph Marcus, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry
48. Robert Foley, Cambridge Professor of Human Evolution
49. Daniel Dennett, Tufts Professor of Philosophy
50. Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in Physics
Mozart – Requiem Mass In D Minor K 626 – 1. Introitus 00:03
Massive Attack – Two Rocks And A Cup Of Water 02:28, 19:14
Max Richter – Embers 05:13
Ludovico Einaudi – Andare 09:27, 24:30, 26:31
Ludovico Einaudi – Nuvole Bianche 13:13
Max Richter – Vladimir's Blues 29:21
Ludovico Einaudi – Eni 30 Percento (The Earth Prelude) 33:16
"Considering there is absolutely no evidence of a god, I am probably right. There might be an Easter Bunny" this is so stupid it hardly deserves comment, kinda like some goof walking into his birthday party (he forgot it was his birthday) with the house all decorated and folks standing around sipping punch and he exclaims "i see no evidence of a party at all" Man you really are an unrepentant unregenerate God-hater aren't you?
you cannot hate something in which you do not believe, troll
Scot...pretty much, yeah. And quite proud of it really. I admire the fact that I didn't get suckered into believing unadulterated BS and have to live in constant fear of some eternal plan. By the way....your analogy sucks. How do you know who put your party together? Have you eliminated Zeus as the creator? And Vishnu? I see the party....and thankfully, science is telling me more and more about who planned the whole party. But, just because I don't know yet does not give me the right to exclaim some invisible deity with a magic wand did it. That would be crazy....which I think every one of you fanatics are.
i must be an alien too since i was created in His image, the difference between me and the unregenerate children of that real alien Satan is that the light has come back on for me. soon these unregenerate and wicked children of Satan will be wiped from the face of the earth, them and their daddy; and the sons of God will rule this earth. they chose this fate themselves due to the sin of their wicked unbelief. some will be reconciled with God their creator, the others will become a very short memory.
scot....shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere? I'm afraid I am just a little too intelligent to have some sort of ecclesiastical experience in my bathroom mirror, so until I do, I think I will just ignore the invisible worthless deity that you have imagined for yourself. Thanks anyway.
interesting choice of words coming from one of Satan's children, just as my Lord rebuked Satan's temptation i rebuke your assertion of intelligence.
Scot.....you certainly must realize that I don't really give a c-rap what a religious fanatic such as yourself thinks. You sound legitimately crazy.
Why have you broken one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness that someone is a child of satan?
Until you can PROVE satan exists, and then show some affiliation to this person, you have born false witness. Doesn't your "god" frown on that?
I'm certain you will try to twist your man-made book into justifying it somehow, but you do not KNOW what you said about someone is true, so you HAVE broken one of YOUR "gods" laws.
scot: fvck you and your empty proxy threats
I have got to get my eyes checked.
I saw "unregenerate children" as "unregurgitated children."
LOL!!!! Thanks for the Monday laugh!
Gullible and without hope, a fool who has said in his heart there is no God. Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay? For shall the thing made say of him who made it, "He did not make me"? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"? Sir, would you really contend with the Almighty? Would you really go up against a supernatural being with unlimited power and wisdom? Do you have a mighty arm or a secret weapon no one knows about?
scot....you're a bit of a kook, aren't you? Actually, I have no problem going up against your rather INVISIBLE god that has shown absolutely NO supernatural abilities at all. I believe I'll use the same weapon I used to defeat the Easter Bunny last year.....just not believing in him since he is not real. Think that will work?
really should stop now since you foolishly continue to store up wrath for yourself, you really have an affinity for pain don't you? i am reminded of the cartoonish mouse with a pea-sized brain and a middle finger hoisted heavenward just seconds before the hawk swoops in to take him away. i really do love ya and wish you didn't have all that anger and inner turmoil bubbling up inside you.
Scot...if I really believed in your invisible sky overlord, I might be concerned. But, since he does not exist, then I will continue to live my only chance at life the way I want to. I really do feel sorry for you people, mostly because you just aren't smart enough to see past your imaginary deity, which forces you to live in constant fear of reprisals. That is no way to live....but if you are comfortable with that craziness....have at it.
Oh no!!!! he's storing up wrath! storing up wrath I say!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Damnit, Jim! He's gonna blow!
...... fool who has said in his heart there is no God. – paraphrase from psalms?
When running a long term con, you have to take steps to lock the mark in....hence the warning above, If you have a relatively honest person on your hands, you need to fabricate a guilt he/she cannot possibly escape....original sin....complete with a Messiah who already paid the debt of your 'sin' – who you now owe.... maybe thats where organized crime originally got the idea for the shakedown...no?
Well... what can I say that I've not said already? You all know it by now!! All of this is just one more big piece of Evidence of the Absolute, Complete and Total NONSENSE of atheism/evolutionism/cultism/paganism and idolatry. Hitler WAS NOT a christian as atheists pretend with all the pretense of their charlatanism to say. Hitler paid lip service to churches because there were many Christians in Germany. His life as an adult was marked by Cultism. Above all things he was just what he is remember for, a Mass Murderer a genocidal child of Hell.
Aloser21....ALL religions are cults....by definition.
Religion is quite literally the way one leads his/her life. Atheism is itself a religion and thus it is hypocritical to condemn someone for their belief in God just because you don't believe. If someone else is living their life according to their belief that their creator wants them to live a certain way, then condemning them for that is not justifiable. But i'm not here to judge you or argue the semantics of religion, I'm here to warn you that if you do not repent of your sins and be reconciled to your creator, then you will certainly die and He is righteous and just to put you to death. You judge and condemn yourself, because you refuse to come into the Light.
scot....first of all...atheism is not a religion in any sense of the word. Second....I am not afraid of your vengeful, useless, egotistical, pr-ick of a god. I don't believe he exists, but if he does exist and treats his creation as horribly as he does (but, no worries...he is not real) I would be happy to avoid his worthless wrath as completely as possible. And...you are wasting your life worshiping such a horrendous excuse for a creator.
And who absolves those sins? how do you make amends for these sins? how do i know what a sin is? how do you know what a sin is? how does the clergy – who know about as much about an afterlife as anyone else walking this planet, and no more, know that jesus is appeased with your repentance?
could it be that it scales with the amount cash you give, could it be that His sales staff kind of makes this stuff up on the fly?
Atheism is not a religion. Atheists don't believe in a god – other than that, we can all have completely different beliefs and still be atheists.
Seavik....I tried to explain that to this guy, but as you can see, he is one of those argue by quoting a bible verse. I'm afraid we may have another Theo here....all BS, no substance. It's difficult to debate with a nutcase.
Oh dont worry, humanity will keep repeating this over and over. It isnt that we wont remember, its that we as a whole really dont give a damn. Never Again – isnt that the phrase connected with the Holocaust? and since then we ve had at least one repeat every decade. We have sociopaths for leaders.
Yup!! Nothing new under the sun, Cambodia, China, USSR comes to mind first.
Don't forget the Crusades, the Inquistion and the current run to impose christian sharia law in the US.
I thought that this post was about "The Holocaust," not an Atheists vs. Christians debate forum... interesting.
I think that I might have a way to settle any and all disputes about the existence of or non-existence of God for everyone.
Let's all just agree to hook-up 100-years from now, and compare notes.
I'm blogging at http;//isthatinthebible.com
How will worm food be able to arrange meetings?
no free advertising please.
Another thief in the long line of scammers on here stealing advertising for his site. P!ss off and repent.
Tin bible....Neither of us will be able to compare notes in 100 years, regardless of what you hope for.
To the christians out there. All I've ever heard about god is:" It's his law," "his grace," his ways." His, his his, it's all his. So god is a masculine being, a 'supernatural' super type man, right? So the question I have is: Which goddess gave Birth to your god?
Christianity is polytheism.
The jewish people used to worship god and gods wife, but then that pesky 10 commandments thing was re-checked and god told them not to worship any god before him, so they apparently forgot about gods wife. Even god, by telling them not to worship the other gods acknowledges that there are OTHER gods, so christians must believe there are more than one god. Their god tells them there is.
I understand that, igaftr, and you nailed it. But surely, if god had a wife, he must have had a mother, a goddess, in order to give birth to a god, right? This is a question for those christians out there in in gods land doing his will and all. Since they know the mind of god, as the tells us all the time, they must know of god's mother.
Here is the problem. Christians claim to use logic to arrive at the fact that this complex looking universe must have had a more complex designer for it to exist. The next step in their logic process is to then abandon logic by accepting that a complex designer of the universe did not itself require an even more complex deity to have created the creator and so on into infinity. They just stop after deciding "God did it" because they are too caught up thinking about everything their God is supposedly promising them, you know, cloudy eternal bliss while their neighbor who would play his music too loud is obviously roasting below.
Christians seem unable to comprehend that the universe could exist without a creator, and yet they seem happy to say that no-one or nothing needed to create their god because he is infinite. When asked about this failure in logic, Christians say that their god is not of this universe but of another plane. As ever, a retreat into mysticism is the first refuge of the cornered fool.
I would implore some of the Christians on this post to check out a book on Amazon called "300 Times 0" which discusses the prophecies of Jesus from a purely Hebraic roots perspective. It's an interesting book and it's one of the better ones I have read on this subject.
300 Times 0 – An examination of the 300 prophecies of Jesus
unfortunately, christian cognitive dissonance will leave your book unread @rosenj.
Jrosen, you will not get any Christians to admit that the purloined OT says anything more than what they want it to say to justify their belief that the NT is fulfillment of the old.
The timing of this article is significant, though the significance is not explained, other than this reference:
"... ahead of Days of Remembrance, when Holocaust victims are honored during the week of April 27-May 4"
From the NY Times (Monday April 28):
"TEL AVIV — Every year, Jews around the world observe Yom Hashoah, a solemn day set aside to remember the millions of people who lost their lives in the Holocaust. In Israel, which became the first modern Jewish state a few years after World War II, the observance of Holocaust Remembrance Day even stops traffic, if only for a moment.
The observance began at 10 a.m. local time on Monday. In Tel Aviv, where traffic on weekday mornings usually flows thickly on major highways, all cars and trucks came to a halt. People stepped out of their cars and stood silently as air raid sirens wailed."
I have not personally seen the observance of the moment of silence, but even seeing it on video is remarkable, as the air raid sirens wail, traffic stops and people get out of their cars. It is powerful and moving.
After the days of remembrance, Israel will celebrate Independence Day on May 5.
Oh wow. That had to have been a stirring, emotional moment. It brought years to my eyes just reading it...
Google videos of the observance – there are lots of them. The sight of traffic stopping on busy highways is very moving.
Thank you. I will.
There was a time you would see similar observance of Veterans day. At 11:11 am on 11/11 not all but many places would stop everything for one minute to remember the veterans. Now it isn't even a day off for many veterns.
You will still see the moment of silence on November 11 observed in Britain (where it is called Remembrance Day), though I don't think the traffic stops.
As time passes people forget. I noted yesterday that Memorial Day was established as a day of remembrance for the Civil War dead. Now it's the unofficial first day of summer. As noted by a vet to my post, it's a nice day to raise a toast to and thank our living veterans, but the solemnity is long gone.
We've kind of flipped the intent. Memorial day (intended to remember the dead) is now a party, but Veterans day (intended to remember all those who served) is, for most, just another work day.
You are correct, Memorial day is for those who gave their lives, Veterans day for ALL vets. I have seen a new aspect for Vets day though...many places offer free food, drinks, discounts for veterans on veterans day, which is nice, but many simply do not understand what being a veteran means.
Many of my friends think that to be a veteran , you had to see combat, they don't understand it means you served in the military, and it does not matter in what capacity. Combat Veterans do get different benefits, but all who serveed are vets.
To alleviate any misunderstanding... the toast is to the living and the dead. We do not forget our fallen brothers and sisters.
And yet there are still the biblical-driven bigoted among us (e.g. Salero, Vic and Theo)! They should be reminded constantly that we come from the same Adam, not the biblical one but the one described on p. 2 of the comments.
Reality, some people simply will not ever be able to "un" doctrinate themselves. Stories about magic trees and talking snakes and forbidden fruit appeal to their childish brains. In other words, some people just don't grow up.
Much like a leopard can't change its spots, indoctrinated Christians would prefer to be skinned over giving up their rose colored version of reality where they get to sit as Kings atop the universe at the right hand of their bearded white male God while their enemies writhe and scream in pain and agony. That thought is a source of pure joy for them.
Clumps of monkeys flinging poo at one another.
That's all humans are.
Primates, with primate reactions to everything.
You have brains in your head.
You have feet in your shoes.
You can steer yourself
any direction you choose.
You're on your own.
And you know what you know.
And YOU are the one who'll decide where to go....
– Dr. Seuss, (Oh! The Places You'll Go!)
James 4:13-17 ESV
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
“An Ass put on a Lion's skin and went
About the forest with much merriment,
Scaring the foolish beasts by brooks and rocks,
Till at last he tried to scare the Fox.
But Reynard, hearing from beneath the mane
That Raucous voice so petulant and vain,
Remarked. O' Ass, I too would run away,
But that I know your old familiar bray'.
That's just the way with asses, just the way.”
? Aesop(620-560 BC)
Matthew 7:15 ESV
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves."
"Atheism is a non-prophet organization." – George Carlin
"“If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”
Did God just want more babies to die before sanitary medical practices were implemented? Did God just will more humans to die much earlier to easily cureable maladies that had not yet been discovered? Is man foiling Gods plans by discovering cures and learning about viruses and illness that God used to use to wipe out those he didn't like?
The quote does not just say to sit back and do nothing. It is saying that those who boast about their plans without considering God are walking into an unknown and scary future. It is saying that you should align yourself with God's will and then trust that whatever happens, God will be with you.
You know that a lot of those scientists that developed all those cures you were talking about were Christians, right?
Alexander Fleming, inventor of Penicillin, was a Roman Catholic,
Louis Pasteur, inventor of the Vaccine was a Christian
Phil McGraw, solver of all the world's problems, is a Christian
The list goes on and on.
So in short, you are welcome.
dans: quotes from books are only relevant to those who accept the supposed authority of said books.
blathering biblical quotes only makes you look like you have made your own thought processes secondary to that book
it is amusing, though
Sam....it's not amusing.... It's downright scary! These morons are actually out there walking around in the general public! That scares the heck out of me.
Rabbits. Proof there is no god.
Unlike most other mammals, lagomorphs (including domestic rabbits) produce two types of droppings, fecal pellets (the round, dry ones you usually see in the litterbox) and cecotropes. The latter are produced in a region of the rabbit's digestive tract called the cecum, a blind-end pouch located at the junction of the small and large intestines. The cecum contains a natural community of bacteria and fungi that provide essential nutrients and may even protect the rabbit from potentially harmful pathogens.
How does the rabbit get those essential nutrients? She eats the cecotropes as they exit the anus. The rabbits blissful expression when she's engaging in cecotrophy (the ingestion of cecotropes) will tell you that she finds this anything but disgusting. In fact, rabbits deprived of their cecotropes will eventually succumb to malnutrition. Cecotropes are not feces. They are nutrient-packed dietary items essential to your companion rabbit's good health.
A rabbit may produce cecotropes at various times during the day, and this periodicity may vary from rabbit to rabbit. Some produce cecotropes in the late morning, some in the late afternoon, and some at night. In any case, they usually do this when you're not watching (quite polite of them). This might be why some people refer to cecotropes as "night droppings," though cecotropes are not always produced at night. A human face is apparently an excellent and refreshing palate-cleanser, as a favorite activity immediately post-cecotrophy often seems to be "kiss the caregiver". Mmmmmm.
by Dana Krempels, Ph.D.
I'll never look at bunnies the same way again. Just sitting there, still as a rock, eyeing little girls with bad intent...with their beady eyes...you just KNOW it's a direct descendent of The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog.
Tim: Follow. But. Follow only if ye be men of valour, for the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no man yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of full fifty men lie strewn about its lair. So, brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth.
King Arthur: What an eccentric performance.
I just replaced my worn out copy last weekend. I'll have to crack 'er open.
Evangelicals. Proof there is no god.
Christians and other religions with members that discount scientific reality in favor of the bible are complete idiots. I would go so far as to say they cannot be trusted if they are being honest about their beliefs. If they are liars and just want to fit it and/or be admired they are even worse. It is difficult if not impossible to trust the religious because of their ignorance.
Christians have faith in something beyond science and reality, Concert.
If you just believe everything your senses show you, then you are living in a highly filtered world.
How many things exist that we have no way of knowing about because either our senses cannot detect them or our brain cannot compute them?
If you think that science can give you all of the answers, then you are just as faithful as any Christian.
We choose to believe about God, Jesus, and the Bible. You choose to believe in science and the world. One of us will be right when push comes to shove. I, frankly, don't care if you are right. It means nothing to me... But if we are right... I think you will be caring then.
"We choose to believe about God, Jesus, and the Bible. You choose to believe in science and the world."
One of those we KNOW is real. The other we just HOPE is real.
Do you really "Know" Science is real? Come on man, look deep down at the foundation for all your knowledge. It all stands on a base assumption that what we perceive in the world is true.
It reality, both the atheist/materialist and the theist are "hoping" that what they believe is true.
Dans, even if what you say is true, that we are both hoping our belief is correct, you must then ask yourself which one is more plausible. I will take science over an imaginary, quite useless, and completely invisible being anytime!
"Do you really "Know" Science is real?" Classic! INCREDIBLE IGNORANCE.
You sat in front of a computer (or other device) and sent your IGNORANCE instantaneously around the world. People on the other side of the SPHERICAL (not circular) world could read your thoughtlessness in a second.
Amazing! WAKE UP!
"It all stands on a base assumption that what we perceive in the world is true. "
Yes, that is true. I agree that I have no guarantee that the sun will rise tomorrow but I believe it will and I don't consider that "faith" since I have percieved it happening every morning since I was born and have read the accounts of people living thousands of years ago and they all percieved the same thing. So i'm willing to believe in something that has been a time tested reality.
What the religious ideology does is it "stands on a base assumption that what we perceive in the world isn't true. " with zero evidence to support their theory. When asked for evidence they try to point at what we can percieve and say "well how did this get here then?" Since science has not unraveled the origins of the universe yet religion steps in and says "See you can't PROVE i'm wrong so I just might be right! Do you really want to take that chance Pascal?" And my answer is resoundingly "Yes!" because of the thousands and thousads of different foolish theories of spirits and fairys the odds are actually better that you are ALL wrong instead of one of you being right.
Guidans, do you agree with Theo Philio's views that the victims of the Holocaust deserved to die because God decreed it? Basically making all this death in God's name?
I am not entirely sure if I understand what Theo is trying to convey in his remarks. I can tell you that I believe that God is not the author of evil (and that includes the Holocaust). I know that the Bible tells us in Romans 8:28 that:
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
What that says to me is that, while man will do evil in the world, God can use that evil to work towards His end goal and use that evil for good. God made the world perfect and never wanted any of the evil in the world to occur; however, He also knew that man would fall from grace and that many evil acts would take place on it. While God does not want these things to occur and He did not cause them, He will use them according to His purpose to bring about good for His children.
I hope that answers your question.
Read page 1.
But basically, Phil uses Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and goes on to say that since the Jews violated their Covenant with God, He punished them with the Holocaust. And that the other 6 million died because...whatever. And that He used Hitler as the weapon to punish the Jews. And the 6 million who weren't.
Basically saying it was all done in the name of God, which really just gives fuel to unbelievers.
I agree with you....except for this: "He will use them according to His purpose to bring about good for His children"...this is in part what Phil is saying. As if 12 million people wiped off the earth is a good thing. The creation of Israel, which only has a population of 8 million, is great, but is it worth the lives of 4 million extra people? Or don't they matter?
Hitler was a maniac. And what he did cannot be justified by the Bible. Which is exactly what Phil did, and which is why I am very disgusted with that interpretation of it.
ans, If your god created the universe and all in it, how could it not have created evil (or at least not prevented it from being created)?
@Sara.... "Guidans, do you agree with Theo Philio's views that the victims of the Holocaust deserved to die because God decreed it? Basically making all this death in God's name?"
During my younger days when I was attending brainwashing classes (Sunday school) , the pastor of the Lutheran church we attended told us flat out, that the holocaust was gods punishment to the jews for not accepting Christ as the messiah. For some reason that stuck in my mind and when I later repeated that to my parents, I remember the look of horror on their faces. For some strange reason, I never had to go back to that church, or forced to attend any other church at that point. (thankfully.) True story.
Fin, that's exactly the nonsense that Phil is vomiting. The look of horror on my face when I first read page one probably mirrored your parents.
I am actually thankful for that experience because it was the beginning of my awareness regarding the horrors of religion.
You are making the "Case of the diminishing god" argument. If we haven't discovered something scientifically, god did it. By that logic, each time we discover something previously unknown (round earth, tides, etc.), a little bit of god disappears. One day, our existence notwithstanding, there will be no need for any gods. In the meantime we keep exploring and having fun learning new things.
God is outside of this reality. So learning more about this world does nothing to diminish God.
Anyway, I am glad you brought up the phrase, "our existence notwithstanding" because it brings up a very good point about all of the hard work we humans do on this Earth. No matter what, your science tells you that the world will one day be engulfed by the sun, that the sun will one day burn out, that the universe will one day cool down to nothing and that protons will one day fall apart.
If the end result of everything, no matter what we do, is the same (i.e., total destruction of everything), then what does anything matter?
"God is outside of this reality"
Yes...imaginary things are like that.
Are you really so brilliant to understand everything that exists outside of this reality? Are you really making that claim?
If so, you should write a paper about it. I am sure that the rest of the world would be extremely intrigued to know about the strange things that exist outside of our understanding.
Dans.... And are you claiming that you know for absolute sure that god exists outside of our reality? If you have that proof, you should write that paper!
Things outside our understanding does not equal "god". There is no evidence of any such ent!ty.
I see absolutely no reason to even think that might be something "outside of this reality". However, if I believed in a god and knew I couldn't prove that the god existed "outside of this reality" would be a good place to put it so that I could avoid having to provide any evidence of the god's existence.
You are implicitly claiming to understand what exists outside of this reality. Please explain how you know that there is something outside of this reality and how you validated that.
I don't need proof that God exists. I take it on faith. God exists to me and that is more than enough "proof" than I need.
You proof worshipers are worshiping a ghost. You have never proved nor will you ever prove anything. You "think" that you know things, but all of that is just your arrogance reinforcing your beliefs.
In the end, both you and I know absolutely nothing. We all choose to believe the things we do. I just choose to believe in God.
Dans....I agreed with you. I don't know for sure. The problem I have with you god worshippers is that you contend you know for sure! If I could get just one of you people to admit that you really don't know, I'd fall out of my chair!
At least you admit you are willfully ignorant.
"You proof worshipers are worshiping a ghost. You have never proved nor will you ever prove anything."
Never say "never".
I think that there is a very big misunderstanding out there regarding the terms, "know" and "believe." In reality, we actually "know" nothing. To know something is basically proving that it is true, which, in earlier posts, I have stated, is not possible.
What that leaves us with is beliefs. I will not claim to "know" that God exists, just as much as I will not claim to "know" that you or I exist. I am confident that I "know" nothing. I believe however that you, I, and God all exist and are as real as anything else. If God was provable, then everyone would believe in Him and it would not require a choice to love Him or not. Because He is not provable, you have to believe in Him on faith, and commit to Him without seeing.
Jesus says to Thomas in John 20:29 ESV
“Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Do you know that your significant other has not cheated on you? I would say that, unless you spent every second with him/her, you could never be certain. But I am sure you trust that they are faithful to you because you love them. You cannot know anything. You have the opportunity to believe though.
Dans....faith must be based on something. I have faith that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow because I have something to base it on. You have only a musty 2000 year old book in which to base your belief. The funny thing is....were I to announce I were gods other son come to save you all, you would demand infinitely more proof than just some mere writings.
"If God was provable, then everyone would believe in Him and it would not require a choice to love Him or not"
Yes. Then God might have to base access to heaven on what people ACTUALLY did and the kind of people they were and then reward or punish them rather than let Jesus take the punishment. Some system.
Observer....great point! Seating is limited in heaven, I hear. The ambiguity of their god is appalling, and they are just too blind to see that. And...the response they give about needing to have faith based on nothing is tenable at best
In reality we know MANY things. Nice try at rationalizing so much that you actually throw knowledge out the window, trying to put knowledge and belief on the same level. They are not.
Thank you for the example of the mental gymnastics that it seems all believers do, to rationalize belief in something there is no evidence for.
You were better off simply claiming willful ignorance.
Does Satan "Know" God exists? Does Satan have a choice to love him or not?
Your own theology is so thoroughly confused you don't even know how not to contradict yourself.
If God based entrance to Heaven on our works, then Heaven would be empty. No one deserves Heaven. We have all sinned and there is nothing we can do to right past wrongs. Jesus came to Earth and died to save us from our sins and to take the punishment that was rightly owed to us. The system that says good deeds make up for bad deeds is the broken system. The other system that says that you can pay your debt to society by going to prison is also a broken system.
God's system is completely fair. You break the law, you fall from grace. We have all broken the law and fallen from grace. We need Jesus to bring us back into a relationship with God.
How many good deeds would make up for a murder? what about a theft? How long would you have to spend in prison to make up for a se.xual assault? Does any good deed make up for a bad deed? Does any amount of time in prison correct the initial crime?
One very important aspect you left off from you questions about 'sins'. There is no clear cut definition in your world of what those sins are. Don't say the bible, because slavery is ok in the bible. Don't say the Ten Commandments as they are incomplete. And don't say they are defined by god because there are many gods, all unproven, and all inescapably absent.
Sin is a concept introduced in and defined by the Bible. Sin is going against God's will in any context. God gives a bunch of rules to follow, and if you break one, you break them all.
To discuss sin outside of a Christian context is somewhat nonsensical as Christianity (and Judaism for that matter) defines what sin is. You can discuss bad deeds or bad actions, but then you need to define your own morality to determine what is good and what is bad. Christianity defines what is good and what is bad. You align with God and you do good, you go against God and you do bad.
Just so you know, Christians are just as guilty of committing sins as anyone else. We just accept Jesus's sacrifice for us and believe that we are purified in God's eyes.
No one is going to get out of this world without sinning (except for Jesus), so everyone needs Jesus to make us right in the eyes of God.
Dans....how nice....a get out of hell free card. No wonder you Christians feel it necessary to commit so many atrocities in the non-god world here. You think you are free to do anything as long as you believe in Jesus. That is nuts. My morals don't come from a musty old book, but from the belief that we need to live here together in a society.
Yet, you claim to know the infallible word of this being
The arrogance is amusing
Theo – If my grandfather murdered someone, should I pay the penalty? I find divine justice (as often described in the bible) is flawed because it treats groups of people (and their descendants) as a single person. They aren't. Is it truly just for the son to have to carry the sins of the father?
The bible is violent, racist, supports genocide and inc3st, supports punishing the child instead of the sinner such as in the case of King David. What we would consider justice today isn't found in the bible.
"13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the Lord, the son born to you will die.” 2 Samuel 12:13,14
I don't think you have a right understanding of what the Bible means by "generational curses."
I can't type it all here, but here's a good place to start...
Mental gymnastics is tough to get out in a blog, isn't it, Theo?
The Bible said that punishments can be carried for several generations and then the perfect and unchanging God changed his mind and said they shouldn't.
Theo, please try to get this through your head:
You are sick and need help. You are in no position to educate anyone else of anything whatsoever. You interpretation of your fictional book of fantasies is absolutely irrelevant. Stop being such a terrible person and seek help.
Theo, you are a relatively high functioning lunatic. If you get professional help, you be able to live a normal life someday.
I have read the bible cover to cover several times. I know what is meant by generational curses, I just think they are full of shlt. The Genesis account didn't happen as proven by our DNA and the remains of humans found more than 20,000 years ago, far longer than any lineage purported by Genesis. That along with zero evidence of any global flood, our DNA that includes neanderthal DNA, all pointing to the FACT that the Genesis myth never happened and Adam and Eve are completely fictltious and thus the whole idea of inherited original sin is bogus. We are evolving, not devolving as you would have to believe if we were perfect once.
Theo is proof that a human can devolve. Since picking up a bible and studying it for 30 years or so, Theo has devolved into a middle ages inquisitor.
By the logic posited in that site, ignorance is a sin. In that, a son raised in a family that for generations has violated god's law is held as accountable as the first that started the tradition. They try to downplay it by saying that the son is more likely to sin in the manner of his father, but that's not what you are saying with generational curses. In these cases god is enacting punishment in this lifetime rather than (though probably also) in the next. How many millions of children died in the holocaust (christian, jew, gypsy, etc.)? By your logic (I assume as you posted the link) they were as guilty of killing Jesus as the centurions that hammered in the nails (more so!). Again, how is this justice?
Phil will answer with some interpretation that s-he has that somewhere along the line someone sinned so it's all fine to kill them. Watch and see.
I'm fairly new to the CNN belief blog but I must say that I am seriously shocked at some of the posts you make. I came here to have intelligent discussions about religion but instead I see posts by unreasonable, fundamentalist Christians who try to justify unimaginable horrors which the human mind can not comprehend, nor is it in our place to. In fact, while you are correct that Deuteronomy says God's anger burned against Israel, it also says in Chapter 29:29 that "The hidden things belong to the Lord our God. I think only God truly knows why he allowed (and continues to allow) innocent victims to be murdered.
As a person who believes in a divine being (not a man named Jesus), I can sympathize with your tenacity to prove that there is a Creator of all things, however, I have noticed throughout my life that the best "salesman" for Atheism has been the Christian religion itself. Christianity itself has created more Atheists than any other ideology. The idea that a baby who is also God, and was born of a virgin woman, but who is also the father of himself is utterly illogical and never had any basis in any of the Hebrew Scriptures. As a fellow lover of humanity and a person who believes in a Creator, I would respectfully implore you to understand that you can get more bees with honey than vinegar.
rosen: theo is big on that. so is rainy fuhrersucker. i have long since given up on having dialogue with these cretins, and have found lots of entertainment in ridicule. topher/gopher is good for that.
Right. Of course not. Nobody has the understanding you do, Theo. You are correct and the only one who is. You are the consumate foremost expert on the Bible. You're credentials are impeccable.
Jews and Gentile alike, ALL deserved their fate in the Holocaust.
God decreed it, and used Hitler as His instrument.
well, theo and gopher......and rainy fuhrersucker....and vic.....and kermy
=== Theo Phileo on the Holocaust (comments yesterday) =======
They suffered because they violated their covenant with God formed in Deuteronomy 28:15-68.
[Akira:] "Explain how the Jews violated this covenant, and explain how you know that every single Jewish family violated it."
Idolatry, apostasy, and unbelief. [..] The fact that Judaism still exists today in denial of the Messiah is evidence to their apostasy.
[Akira:] "And now you are claiming that Hitler to be an instrument of God? That's what you seen to be implying."
Yup. In the same sense that Judas, who betrayed Jesus was an instrument of God. In the same sense that the Jews who had Jesus crucified were the instruments of God. The Bible tells us that God will use even an unrighteous and a sinful people to judge those whom God deems worthy of judgment, even if those to be judged are beloved of God.
I can only relate what the Bible has to say, and it tells us that the Jews' hearts are hardened due to their apostasy, and because of their apostasy, God will punish them, until such a time that they repent of their unbelief.
=== (Doris) =========================================
Wow. Now let's see – unbelief of what? Well, there are the Gospels of unknown authorship. There is hearsay from Paul. And let's see there is Peter saying that Paul's word is divinely inspired in Peter 2, except that – oh yes, most NT scholars agree that Peter did not author Peter 2. A belief instilled by fear of the most immoral promises for belief, non-belief: the afterlife with forgiveness of one's wrongdoings, otherwise eternal punishment. A belief that needed a defense that Satan was able to perform plagiarism backward in time....
"These lots and lots of copies are from many centuries after Mark was written. How could we know that these copies stemmed from a correct copy, instead of an errant copy? Our earliest ones are all highly errant." –Bart Ehrman
And from THAT "foundation" Theo feels justified that HIS god has exercised his "righteousness" will on Jews. And from THAT "foundation", we have "righteous" evangelists who traveled to Africa recently to incite violence and the killing of people there.
“The problem with religion, because it's been sheltered from criticism, is that it allows people to believe en masse what only idiots or lunatics could believe in isolation.”
― Sam Harris
Thank you for repeating this conversation. You are being a wonderful evangelist.
God is sovereign, and ordains whatsoever comes to pass, but in so doing, he never violates the will of the creature. In that sense, man is not released from the sin and guilt of his wicked deeds that are done in full willing cooperation of his own vile will.
While nothing can justify the Holocaust, we do see at least one good thing which came from World War II: Israel now exists as a nation. The Holocaust was a primary reason the White Paper of 1939 was rescinded, freeing Jews to immigrate to Palestine.
This is a prime example of the coterminous actions of God and man. God works out His plan even through the evil devices of wicked men.
Genesis 50:20 – As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
You have isolated yourself with your barbaric ideology. Everyone can see you as the lunatic idiot you are.
"Everyone can see you as the lunatic idiot you are"
The fool has said in his heart "there is no God."
Theo...."the intelligent have said in their heart...there is no god"
Fool: a person who has been tricked or deceived into appearing or acting silly or stupid: to make a fool of someone.
Just because a majority of the world has been tricked and deceived doesn't make them any less of a fool.
A real fool thinks that a heart is capable of speech.
...."the intelligent have said in their heart...there is no PROOF of god, and ask the religious to provide some so that we can have an intelligent discussion about reality."
once again, corn pone, you have revealed your god to be a vindictive, petty pr1ck and yourself to be a snivelling sycophant. get back on your knees
A judge is not being vindictive when he orders the sentence against a criminal. The sentence is given for punishment and for correction, rehabilitation, and repentance.
a self appointed non-human invisible judge can go suck my nuts, oh wait, is that him? I just felt a little tickle...
Be respectful... Act like somebody. You should be ashamed of yourself for using such crass language in a public forum like this.
Theo, you are in no position to judge anyone. You should be ashamed of everything you've written on this subject. You are truly a terrible person.
You should be ashamed for your lack of intelligent responses. Every time you are shown how perverted your faith is you simply shrug your shoulders and say "Hey, it's not what I want, it's what my God wants. Don't blame the messenger..."
Well if you are the messenger and your message is "Have faith in my God or else" then you can go shout your message in a more appropriate receptacle like your own ass.
Be respectful… Act like somebody. You should be ashamed of yourself for using such crass language in a public forum like this."
Your idea that people deserved their deaths during the Holocause is much more crass than what he said. That you believe it is ever sicker.
You should be ashamed that you are defending Hitler's actions, dingbat.
"Hey, it’s not what I want, it’s what my God wants. Don’t blame the messenger…”
"I have to go by the Bible"
"The Bible says..."
"You don't have an issue with me, you have an issue with the Bible..."
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. It's Phil's interpretation that I have the problem with, and the fact that s-he is okay with twisting it all around to suit his/er idea that Hitler was right in what he did.
Yuck. No amount of verse-throwing is going to change that Phil's view is just plain perverted.
"A judge is not being vindictive when he orders the sentence against a criminal."
He is if he knows that criminal will commit that "crime" before the criminal does so
you claim that the jews deserved the holocaust and you have the gall to speak of respect?
another deep fried bigot hides his hatred behind god
jeebus is waiting on you, corn pone.....
Theo....your god's plan sucks!
Your certainly ent.i.tled to your opinion, Theo. But keep in mind one of the reasons you are free to express your opinion without fear is that we live under a highly secular government – by design by Deists who didn't presume to know the mind of their god – his involvement; his intentions; many of whom didn't believe that God played an active role in their lives at all, catering to their personal likes and dislikes.
One thing obvious aspects of Christianity is how self-serving it is. In over 41,000 different ways. Maybe I should come back to Christianity. Which sect should I join? Should I join the one who recognizes the Pope as an antichrist? Should I join one of the ones who still sacrifice people? I wonder which one should I join, Theo? I wonder which one will help quell my squeamishness over certain other people?
Your views that the 12 million people deserved their deaths is sick.
That you appear to believe that 100% is sick.
Your interpretation is sick.
You hiding behind the Bible to mask your bigotry is sick.
Phil, your interpretation is sick. End of story.
"We do see at least one good thing which came from World War II: Israel now exists as a nation. The Holocaust was a primary reason the White Paper of 1939 was rescinded, freeing Jews to immigrate to Palestine.
I find that to be a very simplistic view of the history of the formation of the State of Israel. It ignores a long history of the Balfour Declaration and early Zionism, followed by Allenby's campaign in the First World War leading to the British Mandate. It ignores the tensions with Arab Palestinians culminating in the riots of 1929, the actions of the Mufti of Jerusalem and his alliance with Hitler and the 1936 Arab revolt. It ignores the long history of Zionist terrorism in the Mandate, which along with Jewish immigration to Palestine led to the 1939 white paper. It was the wide-scale post-war illegal immigration (and yes, the holocaust certainly was causal to much of the displacement of central European Jews) and ultimately the War of Independence (the 1948 Arab-Israeli War) that created the state of Israel.
Israel will celebrate their Independence Day on May 5th – while young Americans are drinking themselves silly on Tequila. Let's not trivialize the formation of the state of Israel into Holocaust == bad causes Israel == good. History is much more complex than that.
You say that god decreed, ordained, and planned the Holocaust, yet it was evil and unjustiable. Then how is god not at fault?
God’s decrees are not the necessitating cause of the sins of men, but the fore determined and prescribed bounding and directing of men’s sinful acts. God does not take up a good man, instill an evil desire into his heart, and thereby force him to perform the terrible deed in order to execute His decree. Instead, God decreed the act, and then selected the one who was to perform the act, but He did not “make him evil” in order that he should perform the deed. On the contrary, when we look at the life of Judas, the betrayer of Jesus, he was “a devil” at the time the Lord Jesus chose him as one of the twelve. (John 6:70) And in the manifestation and exercise of his own devilry, God simply directed Judas’ actions – actions that were agreeable to his own vile heart, and performed with the most wicked of intentions. By this way, man is still accountable to God for his sins.
How do you know this? You post endless lines of what god does and what god thinks and what god wants. How do you know?
If the bible is your sole reference then you don't know. If it's a feeling inside then you don't know.
You make bold, arrogant claim after bold, arrogant claim. How do you justify these claims?
That was not what I asked. You called the Holocaust an evil and unjustifiable act. You say god decreed the Holocaust. How then is god not evil?
"You make bold, arrogant claim after bold, arrogant claim. How do you justify these claims?"
He who knows the Bible knows the mind of God. At least in so much as we are allowed to know.
"He who knows the Bible knows the mind of God. At least in so much as we are allowed to know."
False. He who knows the bible, knows what the writers of the bible (men) wrote.
They wrote what they imagined their god to be and do. There is no evidence of any such ent!ties.
You still have no idea if there are any "gods" or not.
"That was not what I asked. You called the Holocaust an evil and unjustifiable act. You say god decreed the Holocaust. How then is god not evil?"
The Bible tells us that the death of Jesus was according to the preordained plan of God, carried out by "wicked men." God ordained that it should be so, and men, through their own devices and through their own wicked intents and wills committed the act. God's ordination works through man's wickedness in order to carry out His righteous purposes. That is not to say that the individual act of men is righteous, but that even through man's sinfulness, God will work all things to His glory.
In the case of the murder of God's Son, wicked men did evil deeds that God used to bring about redemption of mankind.
In the case of the Jews, we reflect on the curse of the fig tree in Mark 11, where God pronounces a curse on Israel for her apostasy until such a time at the end when they will repent. That curse is apparent to this day in how much the world system hates her. BUT, God's provisions to preserve from her a remnant until the last day is equally apparent in the very existence of the Jewish people.
God is not stained with the sin of humanity in the same sense that darkness does not taint the light. Light is not the necessitating cause of darkness, but rather wherever the light is withheld, darkness will prevail.
Have you answered my question? The profundity of religious language makes it very unclear. You seem to be implying that the Jews were being punished for their apostasy. That makes it sound like you think the Holocaust was a just act. But earlier you called it unjustifiable. Can you be clear?
"Can you be clear?"
1) No man is justified in committing any sinful act. In the case of the holocaust, that is hate and murder to name just two.
2) God is justified in executing judgment on any He chooses because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
All sin is primarily against God, even though it may have human victims. Man is only justified in taking the lives of other humans in a few cases – self defense, a justifyable war (another topic altogether), and in the execution of a lawfully convicted criminal. But for God, since the wages of sin is death, men only live as long as they do due to God's mercies.
According to the Bible, God will use wicked men as instruments of His divine wrath.
"He who knows the Bible knows the mind of God. At least in so much as we are allowed to."
1 Corinthians 2:11
You give yourself airs. Learn some humility. You are entirely too proud of the education you seem to think you have.
1 Corinthians 2:11
Don't take me out of context... I said AS MUCH AS WE ARE ALLOWED TO KNOW... Of course no one is going to know the entirety of the mind of God, but then I never said that, did I?
1 Corinthians 2:16 – ...we have the mind of Christ.
Also, read John 15:15 – No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you
So the Bible supports slavery, but doesn't like the idea of some people being called slaves. Good one.
We've been through all this countless times before, but you keep bringing up the same old tired arguments. You are a troll, and I refuse to feed you.
Yes. You keep getting upset every time I state the FACT that the Bible supports SLAVERY.
I don't blame you for not wanting to talk about it.
Does God directly command the creation of slavery, or does He merely regulate that sinful act created by men?
If He directly commanded its creation, what verse is that?
God's laws aim at ending the ever increasing corruption of men's laws by working from the inside out – by redeeming the man. It is then up to the man to work in the insti.tutions that he has created to sanctify them. If that is not done, it is not the fault of God, but of men. Probably because those insti.tutions are largely regulated by non-believing men.
God had plenty to say about slavery. He told where to get them, rules for when you SELL your young daughter to a complete stranger for their use, and how much you could HURT them without punishment.
Did God EVER ONCE say that owning another person is wrong?
Did God EVER ONCE say that owning another person is an abomination?
Did God EVER ONCE say that owning another person is sin?
Get serious. READ a Bible.
Theo, The first slavery in the bible is attributed to Noah – post flood so we know he was worthy of god's grace. God clearly accepted slavery from the chosen one, so that's surely god's will.
Phil, I took nothing out of context. You said something, I answered. 1 Cor 2:16 notwithstanding, you don't know the mind of God, you don't have the mind of Christ, even if you memorized the Bible. It is still just your own interpretation, which, btw, skews towards the bigoted side of opinion. You'd be a good little Brown Shirt.
That passage in John is allegory, and you know it, Phil. NOWHERE does Jesus free anyone, nor does he condemn slavery.
You said: "2) God is justified in executing judgment on any He chooses because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.""
So the Holocaust was justified after all? That would seem to be consistent with other things you have said, but you have also said it was unjustifiable.
he who knows the bible knows the mind of god?
what presumptuous crap
This is the last time I'm going to answer you on the topic of slavery. Find a new red herring... Preferrably one that isn't this ridiculous...
(Exodus 21:20-21) – "And if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property."
God permitted slavery to exist in both Old and New Testaments. But this does not mean that slavery was a God-created system. In the fallen world that mankind had created, slavery was a reality; God permitted its existence but worked within its system. Slaves were more akin to domestic servants than oppressed field workers. Slaves could be the captives of war (Numbers 31:25-47), subjects of debt to be worked off (2 Kings 4:1), born into slavery (Genesis 17:12-13), or entered into voluntarily (Exodus 21:5-6). In the Ancient Near East, some slaves were able to own other slaves and even conduct business and in Exodus 21:2 a slave was required to be set free after six years of service. Though slavery carries a very negative connotation here in America, it was not nearly as bad it was here in the first 100 years of our nation's existence. Nevertheless, God allowed it to exist the way He allows other things to exist that He does not approve of: murder, lying, r.a.pe, theft, etc.
God works within the system of fallen man and makes allowances for the freedom and failures of mankind within that system. We see this, for example, in Jesus saying that God allowed divorce because of the hardness of peoples' hearts (Matthew 19:8). The fact is, people are sinners and do things contrary to the will of God. But, even though people have murdered, lied, r.a.ped, and stolen, God has still used people who've committed these sins to accomplish His divine will. Moses murdered an Egyptian but was used by God to deliver Israel. David committed adultery but was promised to have the Messiah descend from his seed. This is proof that though God desires that people not do much of what they do, He permits them their freedom, yet uses the system and the people according to His divine will.
In the case of a slave being property, that is simply the way things were done back then. God worked within the fallen system of man and put limits and guidelines concerning the treatment of slaves (D.e.u.t.e.r.o.n.o.m.y 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Col.os.sians 4:1)…
Understand that the slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. Slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters. The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color.
The Bible most definitely con.demns race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.
Additionally, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders (kidnappers) are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).
Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God’s grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible’s prescription for ending slavery.
Theo....rant all you want, but the fact of the matter is.....a commandment should have been given stating thou shalt not own other human beings! You claim that was just the way it was done back then, but that did not stop the commandment of thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife, even though everybody was coveting all over the place! And, was Jesus too shortsighted to be able to look very far forward into the future? We are just not that stupid....sorry. It is not a red herring at all. It is a legitimate concern. You just can't deal with that and are trying to rationalize it!
No, it is a red herring, and I'm through with it. Just read the Bible.
There is no direct commandment against ALL forms of slavery, because not all forms of slavery are sinful. As I've said, some forms of slavery were akin to domestic servants, and some even entered into it voluntarily. In other cases, it provided for the welfare of women, in other cases, it helped others to get out of debt. It is NOT always sinful.
Oh goodness no, Theo – that's not a good idea. Too many unknown authors. That would be like the clean-up crew seeing what might look like a good sandwich on the ground the next day after a soccer match in Bombay and recommending that they eat it.
(regarding just reading the Bible)
We do have a few books in the Old Testament with unknown authors, but those books were all brought together into canon by the scribe Ezra in the 400's BC, so we know they are authoritative. In the NT, the only book of unknown authorship is Hebrews, but most scholars attribute that to Paul.
There are of course those who would cast doubt onto the veracity of scripture, but NO ONE WHO HAS STUDIED falls victim to their lies. I cannot say enough, a lack of study is the easiest way to be fooled by pseudo intellectuals like Ehrman and others, who are in the same category of historical revisionists as the man who sincerely believes that the Confederate States of America won the War of Northern Aggression in 1865.
Your EXCUSES were ridiculous. No one said that God created slavery. Keep PRETENDING I said that. His MAIN MAN Noah may have done that. What a pitiful excuse for a man Noah was, but God apparently loved him.
"Slaves were more akin to domestic servants than oppressed field workers". Yep. People can BEAT their domestic servants with RODS without punishment. Sure.
"Exodus 21:2 a slave was required to be set free after six years of service. " . Try the FULL TRUTH next time. READ a Bible. It was only for his "chosen" people and others were slaves for LIFE.
"The Bible most definitely con.demns race-based slavery.". WRONG. He treated other races WORSE.
"God allowed murder, lying, etc.". Again, READ a Bible. God said they were WRONG, unlike slavery.
Still COMPLETELY STUMPED?
Phileoidiotism. A condition in which a person can reject all knowledge that does not agree with his/her a priori beliefs.
(also known as Topherism).
Find a new red herring. Your pet issue of slavery has been shown numerous times to be a non issue – not all forms of slavery were sinful, and where sin was present, regulations were in place in order to prevent men from going over and beyond what God had permitted in men's systems.
"Understand that the slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race."
"The Bible most definitely con.demns race-based slavery."
They were not to OWN FOR LIFE, buy, sell, trade or pass by inheritance their fellow HEBREWS. That is at least ethnicity-based (and in their day, a near meaning to what we term "race").
Let's see, Theo. Bart of course holds a PhD (magna c.um laude) from Princeton Theological Seminary and has authored texts books in his position of professor of religious studies at UNC Chapel Hill. And he currently serves as co-editor of the series New Testament Tools, Studies, and Docu.ments (E. J. Brill), co-editor-in-chief for the journal Vigiliae Christianae, and on several other editorial boards for journals and monographs; was President of the Southeast Region of the Society of Biblical Literature, chair of the New Testament textual criticism section of the Society, book review editor of the Journal of Biblical Literature, and editor of the monograph series The New Testament in the Greek Fathers (Scholars Press).
So aside from your general queasiness over current knowledge about NT writings, Theo, what do you have to show that Ehrman has missed the target?
That is at least ethnicity-based (and in their day, a near meaning to what we term "race").
God doesn't recognize "race" as it is seen today. When God spoke of the Hebrews being a seperate people, they were all descendants of Jacob, they were all family. That was to say that they were not to act a certain way within their own family group.
Slavery is a "non-issue" for you because you have no good REBUTTAL. Your best EXCUSE is that God didn't condemn it because he wanted to be POLITICALLY CORRECT.
You will BEGIN to have CREDIBILITY when you can find an answer to these questions that show how PITIFUL your attempts at EXCUSES are.
You might as well declare victory and then retreat.
"So aside from your general queasiness over current knowledge about NT writings, Theo, what do you have to show that Ehrman has missed the target?"
I really don't care what alphabet soup he has after his name. I've got alphabet soup after my name, so? He's not saying anything new... Nothing... He's bringing up the same lies brought up by gnostics, the same lies brought up by Pelagius which was later heralded by Erasmus, and now Ehrman is just another in a long line of those who have since long before been proven heretical by men who were much more scholarly than he.
He uses terminology that is deliberately designed to deceive others. For instance, when there are "variants" in the translations, he calls them "errors" even when the differences are as inconsequential as "Jesus Christ" -vs- "Christ Jesus." He also looks at things like minor spelling differences and calls them "errors," when for many reasons, different spellings are actually perfectly permissable.
Ehrman is a man who for whatever reason became disallusioned with his faith, and he aims to drag as many people as he can down with him.
That is exclusionary 'racism'. By exempting ONE 'race', ethnicity, 'family' (or whatever group name you want to give them) and making ALL others fair game, is racism:
1. the belief that races have distinctive cultural characteristics determined by hereditary factors and that this endows some races with an intrinsic superiority over others
2. abusive or aggressive behaviour towards members of another race on the basis of such a belief
Owning another person was not sinful in EVERY case. Sure, there were some where it was sinful, but not all. That's why God described our relationship to him as "dulas" a bondslave.
Do you treat your children different than the kids down the street? Do you feed them every day? Clothe them? Put a roof over their head? Make sure they do their homework? No. You treat those who are YOURS differently. Is that racism by exclusion then?
So Theo, I think you drastically over-simplify Bart's position. But aside from the Gospels being, for the most part, of unknown authorship, maybe there is something else more convincing that might help us believe in the supernatural claims made in them. Who do we know about who were eyewitnesses – you know not just hearsay, but who can we name as direct eyewitnesses where we can read something written by them?
"Owning another person was not sinful in EVERY case. Sure, there were some where it was sinful"
Yep. And NEVER ONCE did God say it was bad. They were PROPERTY for LIFE. Disgusting. IMMORAL.
"Yep. And NEVER ONCE did God say it was bad."
Yes, the Bible does call sin, sin. Have you not read the Bible?
“Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders (kidnappers) are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10).
The Bible NEVER said it was wrong to OWN another person.
It also NEVER said you couldn't BUY slaves or SELL slaves, including young girls.
Kidnapping is wrong and the Bible was right about that. Try again.
But aside from the Gospels being, for the most part, of unknown authorship
Completely false statement. There are very few books of unknown origin, but in the OT, since they were compiled by Ezra in the 400's BC, they are known to be authoritative.
"maybe there is something else more convincing that might help us believe in the supernatural claims made in them. Who do we know about who were eyewitnesses – you know not just hearsay, but who can we name as direct eyewitnesses where we can read something written by them?"
Sure, start with Clement of Rome. Paul wrote to him in Phillipians 4:3 and calls him a "fellow worker." He then went on to become an early church father, and wrote to the people of Corinth.
"Do you treat your children different than the kids down the street? Do you feed them every day? Clothe them? Put a roof over their head? Make sure they do their homework? No. You treat those who are YOURS differently."
I do not round up all the kids who are not mine and make them peel gr.apes and fan my kids with palm leaves and do my kids' chores for them, and tell my kids that these services from non-family members will be available to them for life.
"The Bible NEVER said it was wrong to OWN another person.
It also NEVER said you couldn't BUY slaves or SELL slaves, including young girls."
Because it wasn't sinful in EVER case. Dude, we've been over this... Some slavery was in place in order to protect women and young girls. In a society that often viewed women as little more than a means of creating other men, being owned by a family and working in their house kept them out of poverty and off of the streets making a living by WHAT they were. There were abuses in these systems, sure, and the system wasn't ideal by any stretch, but did you know that there were MANY instances when the time for their release came up, many refused to go out from the master's care. They had their ears pierced, and became willing (and loving) bondservants for life.
Again, it wasn't sinful in every case. In many cases, it was actually quite a beautiful relationship.
The problem is that your views are skewed by Western culture.
Wow...Theo, I thought you were way off base yesterday claiming the Jews had the holocaust coming to them, but slavery as a beautiful relationship? You have officially jumped the shark!
"Some slavery was in place in order to protect women and young girls. In a society that often viewed women as little more than a means of creating other men, being owned by a family and working in their house kept them out of poverty and off of the streets making a living by WHAT they were."
Forcing young girls to work for strangers who could take them ANYWHERE they wanted for whatever "WORK" the owners wanted is NOT PROTECTING them.
The Bible has several references to the implied s3xual use of the women. Owners could decide if they wanted to marry their slaves. Note there is NOT ONE WORD about the GIRLS wanting to marry the slave owners. Get real.
How can Jesus be the Messiah if He is not of David's line? Tribal lineage can't pass down through adoption, nor through the mother (and Mary wasn't descended of David through Solomon anyways.)
Furthermore, did Jesus manage to:
1) Rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem? Kind of hard to do since the Temple still stood during Christ's lifetime.
2) Re-establish Jewish law as the only law?
3) Save Israel? Lessee – just after His death (and Zombification)the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was laid to waste, and the Jews went into exile to begin a 1900 year long night of persecution, — largely at the hands of Jesus' followers.
4) Establish a world government run from Jerusalem?
5) Return all the exiled Jews to Jerusalem?
Don't forget that during that time, there were MANY claimaints to the Messiah role like Simon of Peraea, Athronges, Menahem ben Judah, Vespasian, Simon bar Kokhba, etc. ad nauseum.
Tribal lineage can't pass down through adoption
Actually, yes it can. Your argument fails.
Address the rest of the points, Theo.
In Judaism, a priest (or Kohain) is someone who is born to another priest.
If your father is a priest, then you are a priest.
If a Kohain adopts a boy who is the son of someone who was not a priest, that child does not become a priest through adoption.
Adoption doesn’t change a fact of birth.
Phil, Christians stole the Hebrew Bible, and now you're trying to hold the fact that Jews don't believe the Messiaic prophecies have been fulfilled yet, therefore they're still waiting for their Messiah against them. Your reading of it is wrong. And you're doing it with THEIR OWN BIBLE!! You're wrong. Face it and move on!!
"What do you think about the Christ Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him Lord? For he says, "The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions (Matthew 22:42-46).
NT. NT. NT.
Jesus wasn't/isn't the Jew's Messiah. The sooner you realize that you cannot use the purloined Hebrew Bible to use against them, the better.
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Messiah."
=>If the many Jews believed he was the Messiah what new information could you possibly have? Even Pilate hung a sign over Jesus saying; "Jesus King of the Jews"......that was shortly after Pilate asked what is truth having seen the Jewish Priests condemn an innocent man
=>Even a trained Roman Centurion said this must truly be the Son of God.
=>Nicodemus a member of the Sanhedrin was willing to risk his life and did loose everything in support of Christ after the crucifixion.
=>I am interested in what new information you have that overturns those present
Fred...I have a friend that swears he was abducted by aliens and probed. I have no information that refutes that, but I'm pretty sure it didn't happen.
Well fred, until you can prove anything you just posted actually happened without using the Bible all you have are baseless claims.
This is like saying that the original Highlander movie had always said that the immortals were exiled aliens.
After all, that's exactly what they say in Highlander II, right?
Theo, you did not address Doc's point about adoption, you just denied it. Can you provide any support for your position? What about his other points? They would seemingly conclusively show that Jesus was not the Messiah, wouldn't they?
Also, why are Luke and Matthew totally inconsistent of Jesus' linage? Would not the Jews know who was their Messiah, given that they came up with the idea?
Thanks for a new word I hope you don't mind if I purloin it.
The Gospel of Christ relates to the new covenant while the Old Testament is the old covenant. Nothing purloined as far as Gods word goes since it comes from God.. The Greatest Story ever told begins in God and ends in God.
If the Sanhedrin did not buy into Jesus linage they could have made quick work of his rise to prominence. I they felt as you do 2,000 years after the fact why did no one mention it at the trial. Why in all the books or even the Mishnah is your view not presented to contest Jesus right to the throne.
The Mishnah wasn't about critisizing Christianity or the Roman Empire.
When Rabbi Judah authored the Mishnah, he was on good terms with the Romans and downplayed the effect of the Temple's destruction. Why do you think the Bar Kokhba rebellion isn't addressed?
It was about how to keep on going with the rituals, rules and ceremonies that were exclusive to The Temple in a world without it. It was about maintaining Jewish culture and custom in a world hostile to them.
Imagine if the Mishnah were indeed overtly critical of Christianity – what do you think would've happened once Constantine forced Christianity on the Roman Empire?
If the Roman Centurion chiseled a selfie in stone of him standing next to Jesus on the cross you would not believe the account of the way of salvation. The obstacle is not circular reasoning I use to account for Christ but rejection of God.
"Fred...I have a friend that swears he was abducted by aliens and probed"
=>If you did have such a friend you would hopefully be with him figuring it all out.
=>If another 200 million people a year had the same experience your friend an you would sing a different tune.
Fred....nope...he is crazy and I am pretty sure he made it all up. I'm not that good of a friend that I need to verify it.
And...300 million people believe in the Muslim faith. Are they right too? Worthless argument.
As to Muslims I do not know what their conversion experience is like. If it is similar then the difference is the object of their experience and their source is the God of Abraham. Although their revelations concerning the attributes of God are rooted in the Hebrew God they put their spin on it. The Catholics, LDS etc. put their spin on core attributes of God as well.
A Muslim conversion experience does not diminish the validity of a Christian experience
Fred....you missed the point. I was intimating that just because 200 million people have the same belief experiences doesn't justify it's integrity. 1 billion people follow Buddha. Millions more are Hindu. All you god worshippers can't be right, but you all could, and probably are, wrong
Believer fred: ask a Jewish person, if you know any.
You're using the NT to answer. What I'm saying is that Jews don't.
Is that plain enough for you?
Fred, I will type this slowly so you can grasp what I've said.
The Jewish people do not follow your NT.
Correct, the Jewish people do not follow God and as a result (as recorded in the Hebrew Bible) were put into slavery 450 years in Egypt, wandered the desert, destroyed by the Assyrians, Babylonians......then the Romans in 70AD,
Your list is not complete: "All you god worshippers can't be right, but you all could, and probably are, wrong" Based on your reasoning you should also add atheists and agnostics because you are part of this collective.
Now would you agree you are probably wrong as well based on your own logic?
Fred....nope....I might be wrong. Considering there is absolutely no evidence of a god, I am probably right. There might be an Easter Bunny, but I am willing to bet there is not. There might be a Loch Ness Monster, but again, I don't think there is. A smart man hedges his bets, and until your god either comes down for a visit or does something godly with his creation (other than completely destroying it because he is mad at it....stupid, stupid reasoning by the way, but from what I have seen from your pr-ick of a god, I certainly expect it), I refuse to believe in such mythological nonsense.
This is just an excerpt. To see the woke conversation, see page one. Read it to get the full gist of how disturbed Theo Philio is, and how s-he thinks what Hitler did was fine...because it was all in the name of God.
Do NOT twist my words. I never ONCE said that what Hitler did was fine.
Just that Hitler had God's approval.
You didn't say what Hitler did was fine, you just said that the Jews "suffered because they violated their covenant with God" and you support that God that made them suffer at the hands of Hitler. So you are right, you didn't say you supported Hitler, just Hitlers boss... Or don't you think your God could have stopped the murder of innocent women and children?
You didn't have to say, it was clear from what you posted that you are o.k. with the Holocaust because you feel the Jews had it coming.
If he was god's instrument to punish the jews how could his action have been anything but righteous?
You may not intend to, but there is where your arguments seem to be leading.
God would be completely justified if He were to immediately undo every living thing on earth because everything under heaven has been tainted by sin. It is only by God's mercy that any live, and move, and have their being.
To think that God would be unjustified in slaying all of humanity is to betray an ignorance of the severity of sin and the holiness of God.
Theo Phileo -."It is only by God's mercy that any live..."
I hear this sort of idea from Christians all the time, but what I don't understand (from a Christian perspective) is what's supposed to be so great about staying alive and thus away from heaven? Why is it such a blessing that your god keeps you alive when the alternative is supposed to be so wonderful?
"To think that God would be unjustified in slaying all of humanity is to betray an ignorance of the severity of sin and the holiness of God."
"severity of sin" and the "holiness of God" eh? Who are we to question an alien being that wants to murder most of mankind and apparently has done it before? I don't care if the alien planted the seeds of life on this planet, he has no rights over our lives and every man woman and child should fight tooth and nail to defy this apparent alien overlord. The fact is that you have zero evidence of this alien being and thus follow some contradictory ancient law written by deceiptful humans wanting to control the masses of uneducated peasants. Bravo Theo. You would sell out your entire planet to get a chance to sit at your imagined alien overlords right hand, it's good to know which side you stand on, humans or your imaginary aliens. By your comments we all know you'll be the first to volunteer to activate the massive gas chambers your overlord will build.
alien: differing in nature or character typically to the point of incompatibility
"Do NOT twist my words. I never ONCE said that what Hitler did was fine."
You do a fair amount of twisting words yourself, Phil.
And you never refuted that it was in the name of God, either. To me, what you didn't is just as important as what you did; there isn't any need to twist your words. You've made it abundantly clear.
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