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April 29th, 2014
12:35 PM ET

New clues cast doubt on 'Gospel of Jesus' Wife'

Opinion by Joel S. Baden and Candida R. Moss, special to CNN

(CNN) - It seemed real; it seemed fake; it seemed real again; now we’re back to fake.

"It” is the controversial little scrap of papyrus, written in Coptic, that seems to have Jesus referring to “my wife,” in contrast to the traditional stance that affirms Jesus’ perpetual bachelorhood.

The quick backstory: In 2012, a Harvard professor, Karen King, brought this papyrus to the attention of scholars and the public.

Both the material and the script looked authentically ancient at first glance, and though the notion of Jesus having a wife was remarkable, these “lost” Christian writings, such as the Gnostic Gospels, are full of unorthodoxies.

It was good enough for King, who is widely respected in the scholarly world.

From the beginning, there were doubts, however, beyond the unlikelihood that the tiny scrap that survived the centuries would happen to be the one that contained the reference to Jesus’ wife.

The papyrus, along with a few other ancient papyri of lesser novelty, had been passed to King by an anonymous figure.

Anonymity, in the world of antiquities, is often a bad sign, compounding the inherent uncertainty when dealing with texts that are bought and sold rather than discovered in a firm archaeological setting.

Then there were aspects of the text itself that seemed suspicious.

For a fragmented scrap of papyrus, it seemed to have an awful lot of important content on it. Not only did Jesus refer to “my wife,” he also potentially described a certain Mary – perhaps Mary Magdalene? – as “worthy” and capable of being a disciple.

It is (almost) too good to be true.

At the same time, the handwriting seemed surprisingly sloppy.

Then again, other scholars noted that just because a scribe has poor handwriting and a text is informative does not make it a forgery. Perhaps we just got lucky this time.

More specific issues arose in the perceived familiarity of the document.

The text of the Jesus’ wife fragment is remarkably close to published editions, available online, of another Coptic Christian text, called the “Gospel of Thomas.”

So close, in fact, that one of the typographical errors in an online edition of the “Gospel of Thomas” is replicated, uniquely, in the Jesus’ wife fragment.

What are the chances of that?

Yet some would say that the fact that there is considerable overlap with the wording of the “Gospel of Thomas” isn’t a problem: Christian authors regularly copied word-for-word from other texts.

The canonical Gospels of Matthew and Luke, for example, reproduce much of the Gospel of Mark, with only slight alterations. And the vocabulary used in the papyrus is remarkably common.

The most compelling argument for authenticity is the flip-side (or verso) of the manuscript.

There are faint traces of ink on this side that have been worn away, suggesting that they are truly ancient.

It would be highly unusual for a modern forger to get his hands on an ancient papyrus written on only one side and equally difficult to imagine how the verso might have been made today.

Yet for all the arguments and efforts, there was no smoking gun - on either side.

And so the papyrus was submitted for testing: carbon-dating of the papyrus itself as well as chemical testing of the ink. Just last month, those test results came back.

It turns out that the papyrus is genuinely ancient. The ink has the chemical composition of ancient ink. The news spread, including here, that the papyrus was the real McCoy.

Of course, tests like those can’t really prove authenticity; they can prove only potential authenticity. And they are hardly foolproof.

Once we started carbon-dating papyrus, forgers started using authentically ancient papyrus. Once we discovered how to identify ancient ink by its chemical composition, forgers started creating precisely the same ink.

Like steroids in sports, it’s safe to assume that the best bad guys are always one step ahead of the science.

And yet, the dating of the papyrus and ink did shift the burden back on to the doubters. And just this past week, they seem to have discovered something as close to proof as we can really expect in cases like this.

Although we knew in 2012 that there were other papyri in the same group that included the “Jesus' wife” fragment – the batch the anonymous donor gave King - none of them had been seen.

That changed with the release of the test results, which used some of these other papyri for the purposes of comparison.

One of those papyri was a fragment of the canonical Gospel of John. For all the uncertainty about the Jesus’ wife papyrus, this text of John evoked no such indecision. It is a forgery.

How do we know? This Gospel of John purports to be a version in a relatively rare ancient dialect of Coptic known as Lycopolitan.

Just such a Lycopolitan version of John was published in 1924 and is now available online. And this newly revealed gospel fragment just so happens to look awfully similar to the 1924 (now-online) version of John. How similar? Here’s how similar:

Herbert Thompson's "Gospel of St John," page 7 (left); Coptic John fragment recto (right), illustrating how a forger could have copied every second line of this text.

Whoever created this new Gospel of John fragment simply copied the beginning of every other line from the online version.

Turns out that if you check the other side of the fragment against its online parallel, the same thing is true (though with the end of every line rather than the beginning, logically enough).

Add to this the fact that the carbon dating of the John papyrus puts it in the seventh to ninth centuries, but Lycopolitan died out as a language sometime before the sixth century. No one wrote anything in Lycopolitan in the period in which this text would have to be dated.

So what does it matter to the Jesus’ wife fragment that this scrap of John is forgery?

Well, it’s never a good sign for a text of doubtful authenticity to be found in the company of a sure forgery.

More directly: Multiple experts agree that the fragment of John and the Jesus’ wife papyrus are written in the same hand, using the same ink and even the same writing instrument.

Simply put: If one is a forgery, they’re both forgeries.

Although 100% certainty is never achievable in such cases, given everything we know now (lab tests included), the “Gospel of Jesus’ Wife” never existed — or, rather, it never existed, for all intents and purposes, before 2012.

There are no great revelations to be gleaned from this text, no astounding new information about Jesus or Mary.

What the entire episode does, rather, is remind us — scholars included — that science might not always have all the answers.

This forgery was detected not through lab analysis but through good old-fashioned humanities-based detective work. This was Sherlock Holmes, not "CSI."

There remains no substitute for deep, thorough, scholarly expertise in ancient languages and texts.

Even in a case that ended up wasting such time and energy in the academic community, that community, and its collective body of knowledge, have rarely been more valuable and necessary.

Joel S. Baden is an associate professor of Old Testament at Yale Divinity School. Candida Moss is a professor of New Testament and early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame. The views expressed in this column belong to Baden and Moss. 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: archaeology • Bible • Christianity • Opinion

soundoff (1,337 Responses)
  1. Peaceadvocate2014

    Jesus was gay? This could be a typical response by someone with highly induced testosterone or a weakling compensating for its inadequacy.

    April 30, 2014 at 11:01 am |
    • Alias

      Or it could expolain why this rabbi had no close ties to the church, and directly said nothing about gay being wrong.
      He basicly had the same message gay poeple have today.

      April 30, 2014 at 11:04 am |
      • workingcopy12

        Gay people explicitly identify marriage as between a man and woman? See Matthew 19:4-6 – "And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."

        April 30, 2014 at 11:14 am |
        • G to the T

          You are assuming what we have is an accurate record of what Jesus said, I don't believe the OP shares that belief.

          April 30, 2014 at 11:34 am |
        • Alias

          So if he was gay it would explain that time they brought a woman accused of inappropriate behavior before him – and he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
          Covering his own ass right there.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:12 pm |
        • joey3467

          That passage isn't even in the earliest known copies, so like much of the stories in the Bible, it probably never happened.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm |
      • Akira

        Wow. That's weird. Alias's post said nothing about marriage, and. your post said nothing about gay people.

        April 30, 2014 at 11:32 am |
        • Alias

          yeah, I think he was trying to avoid getting stoned.
          Pushing for equal marriage rights would have gotten him crusified much sooner.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:14 pm |
      • Peaceadvocate2014

        Jesus mentioned union between a man and a woman, perversions and illness at birth. The term gay is not used until the 19th century.

        April 30, 2014 at 11:39 am |
        • samsstones

          Peacetwit
          You have absolutely no idea what jesus said only a book of hearsay written years after the fact. Besides the reported jesus was so addled that he spoke in rambling parables that even had the disciples saying, what the hell is he talking about. You may want to provide a reference to where jesus supposedly said what so we can shoot that down also.

          April 30, 2014 at 11:49 am |
        • Akira

          Oh. So there's nothing about gay people in the Bible at all! Well, that's good. People should probably stop using the Bible to bash them over their heads, then.

          How many perversions did you exhibit at birth? Thise pervert babies. I knew there was something wrong with wanting to play with their own poop.

          April 30, 2014 at 11:49 am |
      • Peaceadvocate2014

        Alias,

        Jesus did not mention anything about plushophilla at the time. So is he a plushophilla as well?

        Your logic and others seems distorted.

        April 30, 2014 at 6:41 pm |
    • Concert in an Egg

      Everything points to gay.

      April 30, 2014 at 11:14 am |
      • Peaceadvocate2014

        Machismo mentality. What we see glorified in the most media.

        April 30, 2014 at 11:43 am |
        • Peaceadvocate2014

          In most media.

          April 30, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • Akira

          Oh, I know! Those Sunday comics featuring Rex Morgan, MD has turned more that one aspiring heterosexual boy into a testosterone-deprived girlieman.

          April 30, 2014 at 11:53 am |
        • Peaceadvocate2014

          Rex who?

          April 30, 2014 at 6:45 pm |
        • Akira

          Morgan. Like I clearly wrote.

          April 30, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
  2. Alias

    I hate to get back to the topic of the article or anything ....
    but jesus was very likely not married. He was a rabbi, from a fairly wealthy family. That would have made him prime marriage material.
    A rabbi loses respect if he is not married, and jesus was not well accepted by the church. He was very critical of the way they taught and preached their faith.
    Or, of course, he was gay.

    April 30, 2014 at 10:23 am |
    • samsstones

      Alias, I have to agree. The gospels that they did not include in the final version of the book of BS had all the naughty bits that the guys got up to and apparently jesus only mounted an ass from the rear.

      April 30, 2014 at 10:29 am |
      • gulliblenomore

        Sam...and, the fact that he ate, drank, and slept with 12 other men says something. Maybe he was starting a YMCA?

        April 30, 2014 at 10:47 am |
        • snuffleupagus

          GNM, Village People x 2. YMCA indeed!No you know why Jesus told satan to 'get thee behind me.' Oops

          April 30, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • snuffleupagus

          "Now you know..." sorry for the typos.

          April 30, 2014 at 12:12 pm |
  3. HeavenSent

    Many studies have been done that prove believers are more intelligent than atheists. Why do you choose stupidity? I keep the flea and tick shampoo in the shower now so it's faster. Atheists throw rocks but they always land on the wrong side of the fence.

    Amen.

    April 30, 2014 at 10:10 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      I think I finally get your sense of humor HeavenSent. Sorry it has taken me so long. You're very funny!!! LOLOL

      April 30, 2014 at 10:13 am |
      • HeavenSent

        Praise the Lord!

        Amen.

        April 30, 2014 at 10:17 am |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        The original HS was not funny... just batshit crazy

        April 30, 2014 at 10:18 am |
    • Truth Be Told

      Thats the truth Heaven Sent. Those studies is a FACT. If the athiest throws a large rock that rock'll just roll right back over the athiest. Amen Heave Sent.

      April 30, 2014 at 10:17 am |
      • Akira

        "Those studies is a FACT." Yes, they is.

        I love you.

        April 30, 2014 at 11:35 am |
    • jbhollen

      Stupidity would be to accept your post at face value. You claim "many studies" exists. Many could mean dozens but let's make this manageable for you. Please prove details on six (6) of the studies you reference. Authors, date published, conclusions, etc. I would assume any credible study would be on line, so provide links as well if they exist.

      As a sidebar, I am curious how having fleas and ticks contributes to or proves your intelligence?

      April 30, 2014 at 11:49 am |
      • Akira

        You must be kidding.

        Welcome to the BB.

        April 30, 2014 at 11:55 am |
        • jbhollen

          Akira – Every once in a while I actually have a valid exchange with someone who actually can participate in a discussion although I don't think this will be one of those times. When a discussion gets close to proving something or at least making a valid point however they flee or regress into christ speak. So I have never had a compete discussion but I will keep trying. I also look for learning experiences when verifying counter-points made. One of the dimmest wits I have encountered on BB (kermit4jc) actually corrected a misconception I had regarding the contents of the dead sea scrolls. That highlights the pivotal difference between free-thinkers and evangelicals. The former looks for evidence and is willing to modify her/his views whereas the latter is incapable of independent critical thought.

          April 30, 2014 at 12:18 pm |
        • Akira

          Good luck on your quest, JB.
          Although, from your response below, you get it's a joke.

          Should have been here the last two days when Theo Philio was maintaining that the victims of the Holoaust deserved their fate and God used Hitler as his weapon of justice.

          That was when I decided that Theo was an empty drone, devoid of any humanity.

          April 30, 2014 at 12:31 pm |
        • jbhollen

          Thanks for the context. kermit4jc made a similar post in spirit saying that the slaughter of all the babies and children in Noah's flood was an expression of gods love and that everyone else "asked for it". I no longer reply to anything he posts. He is damaged goods.

          April 30, 2014 at 12:42 pm |
        • Akira

          Kermit says he's a psychologist, who works with children.

          Needless to say, I have my doubts.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:10 pm |
        • jbhollen

          That's out of the question. He called someone a "retard" the other day. When I called him on it he said it was because he was frustrated with their ignorance. Could you imagine a psychologist calling a patient a retard when he got frustrated? Also, as evidenced by his posts he is not an educated man. In another forum he said he was "direct care staff" at a teen group home. I am going to guess he works the duty desk signing kids in and out or is a chaperone of some sort just smart enough to dial 911 if something goes wrong.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          and why do you have your doubts about me being a psychologist?

          April 30, 2014 at 7:29 pm |
        • Akira

          Yeah, his trademark is to just insult people proactively.
          That, and the gratuitous use of ellipses.

          April 30, 2014 at 6:56 pm |
      • In Santa We Trust

        It's a parody of a poster who used to post here a lot. The farcical non-sequitur is the clue.

        April 30, 2014 at 11:57 am |
        • jbhollen

          Ah. Ok, I got suckered in! It is probably a comment on some posters contents where I can't tell the farcical from the dead serious.

          April 30, 2014 at 12:20 pm |
      • HeavenSent

        @ jbhollen

        Jesus rose naked from his burial cave and thrust open the rock to see the daylight of the dawning of a new age. Some of the kitten bones in the bathtub could be used for other things. Walk with Jesus and be saved.

        Amen.

        April 30, 2014 at 12:31 pm |
        • Akira

          A very unique necklace comes to mind. It'd be a change/up from the usual macaroni necklaces.

          Etsy, here you come!

          April 30, 2014 at 12:35 pm |
  4. HeavenSent

    Jesus said he would bring unto us teachers, having itchy ears. Carnal atheists on this blog like to steal my handle and spew the lies of satan. My camel-toe has room for one more small litter of kittens. Jesus is Lord and prideful atheists are sad people.

    Amen.

    April 30, 2014 at 9:53 am |
    • samsstones

      Hi HS, is your 12 year old daughter still dancing at the strip joint for tips and drinks, nice to see you back or the back of you, take your choice.

      April 30, 2014 at 10:12 am |
      • HeavenSent

        I insist that she gets home by 2am so we have time to count the tips.

        Amen.

        April 30, 2014 at 10:19 am |
        • snuffleupagus

          HS, LMAO!!

          April 30, 2014 at 12:15 pm |
      • HeavenSent

        She has to go to school or something so I want her in bed before it gets light out.

        April 30, 2014 at 12:32 pm |
  5. Dyslexic doG

    Christians. If you really believe in your god and what is written in the bible, why do you go to the doctor or to the hospital? Why don't you just pray to be healed instead of trusting in science? Why? Because deep down, past all the bluff and bravado, you don't believe.

    April 30, 2014 at 9:41 am |
    • kermit4jc

      Because GOD never said HE will do all the work! God uses OTHER people to help us..we are nOT i9slands in the stream..HOW the heck are we to show love for one another if we do nothing for each other? you have a twisted sense of the God of the Bible and an ignorant one too

      April 30, 2014 at 7:21 pm |
  6. Dyslexic doG

    “The problem with religion, because it's been sheltered from criticism, is that it allows people to believe en masse what only idiots or lunatics could believe in isolation.” – Sam Harris

    April 30, 2014 at 9:32 am |
    • HeavenSent

      You and your atheist friends on this blog think Jesus will still love you after you have turned your back on him. He will weep for you instead. The FBI returned my couch cushions but the otters are missing. Keep throwing sand in the wind and see how it tastes.

      Amen.

      April 30, 2014 at 9:37 am |
      • Dyslexic doG

        @HeavenSent: As an atheist who likes to free people from religion, I want to thank you for all your hard work. Your every post is a boon for atheists everywhere.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:42 am |
      • gulliblenomore

        HS.....just realized you were a nut! Got anything relevant to add, or are you just in it for the scare tactics?

        April 30, 2014 at 9:42 am |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        Stultus Troglodytarum

        April 30, 2014 at 9:44 am |
      • Truth Be Told

        Amen, HeavenSent. Only tears from our weeping can wash the sand from the eyes of fornicating sinners. I think you mean ottermans, HeavenSent, not otters. We had several ottermans that we found at a yard sale before we could find a good used couch.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:57 am |
        • HeavenSent

          The joke is on you prideful atheist. Jesus is the only way to heaven and you have turned your back on Him. I am sure they were otters because of the fur. Read the Bible, it is 100% accurate.

          Amen.

          April 30, 2014 at 10:00 am |
        • jbhollen

          Since Jesus is all around us, everyone has his back turned to him...

          April 30, 2014 at 10:08 am |
        • Truth Be Told

          I'm pretty sure you mean otterman, HeavenSent and I am NOT an atheist. Some of them do come with a fur on top. Also, you must have strange toes. There arent enough ottermans for toes in my home, so the kids and mostly the step kids are always laying down with just their feet up on the ottermans. None of their toes look like a camel's toes, though. I make them use those toes to talk with the Lord though!

          April 30, 2014 at 10:06 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          HS....if heaven is going to be filled with crackpots like yourself, I will be happy to avoid it.

          April 30, 2014 at 10:07 am |
        • Truth Be Told

          err – I mean walk with the Lord, HeavenSent. Amen.

          April 30, 2014 at 10:07 am |
        • fintronics

          Stenchy! you're back with more delusions! how wonderful!

          April 30, 2014 at 11:17 am |
      • otoh2

        Nice game of Ring Around the Poe-sy here!

        April 30, 2014 at 12:13 pm |
  7. Concert in an Egg

    Jesus, high priest of child abuse.

    April 30, 2014 at 9:27 am |
    • Alias

      You need to be more specific. "child abuse" sounds like they were just beating the children instead of what actually happened.
      I also think more needs to be said of the morality of the organization for allowing this to continue until they could no longer cover it up.

      April 30, 2014 at 10:37 am |
  8. new-man

    Jesus’ High Priesthood Is Forever

    Hebrews 6:20 ...Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

    Jesus is our High Priest forever. This “forever” aspect changes the way we are blessed and how we receive our blessings from God. As our High Priest, Jesus represents us before God. Since His priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek, which is one of righteousness, His righteousness becomes our righteousness forever. This means that we are forever righteous in God’s eyes!

    And because He will never die, but continue as our High Priest forever, we have an everlasting righteousness, not merely a here-today-gone-tomorrow righteousness based on our works. No, we have a perpetual and everlasting righteousness because Jesus is our High Priest forever.

    This also means that blessings are perpetually on your head because the Bible says that blessings are on the head of the righteous (Proverbs 10:6), and you are righteous forever!

    Unlike the priesthood according to the Levitical order, which blesses as well as curses, the priesthood of Jesus according to the Melchizedek order only blesses. There is no cursing, only blessing—always and forever!

    And because Jesus is our High Priest forever, the blessings do not come to us in intermittent drips, but stream into our lives in a never-ending flow. Because He is our High Priest forever, we can never stop His blessings.

    By being our High Priest forever, Jesus also touches the blessings that He gives us with a forever effect. He touches our lives and we have eternal life. He touches our ministry and its impact becomes eternal. And the more we see His priesthood as having a forever effect, the more permanent our blessings will be.

    Truly, there is nothing temporal about what Jesus our High Priest does. It is not a case of blessed today, cursed tomorrow. The blessings we receive are sure and steadfast because Jesus is our High Priest today, tomorrow and forever.

    So rejoice because Jesus your High Priest changes how you are blessed forever!
    Fr:JPM

    April 30, 2014 at 9:03 am |
    • colin31714

      So, is Jesus your high priest?

      April 30, 2014 at 9:05 am |
      • new-man

        Good Morning Colin, hope all is great in Dallas.

        Absolutely, Jesus is my High Priest, who is yours?

        April 30, 2014 at 9:13 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          New....I don't know about Colin, but I see absolutely no need for a high priest.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:33 am |
        • new-man

          I'm almost sure Colin's response would be similar to yours.
          I'm not here to convince you of your need for a High Priest. An individual who truly understands the spiritual would see the need for one and avail themselves of this tremendous gift.
          A person who believes in and is relying on their own self-righteousness, their own obedience, their own holiness has not yet have a revelation of the goodness, mercy, love, and grace of our Lord God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:41 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          New....thanks, but I think I will rely on my intelligence rather than an invisible, uncaring, deity.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:46 am |
        • new-man

          Friend,
          that's the goodness and mercy of our God, you can choose to rely on Him, or you can choose to rely on self or whatever else.
          when all else have failed you- and they will, keep this tucked away in your heart, "just a groan, will reach God's throne" and reach for it, because ALL (not some, or a select few) who call on the Lord, will be saved.
          Blessings in your journey.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:55 am |
      • HeavenSent

        I hope you atheists enjoy worms. You will have your own personal worm eating your fat drippings for all of eternity in hell. My 12-year-old daughter is down to a pack a day. Love Jesus or enjoy your greasy fat.

        Amen.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:33 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          HeavenS....please provide proof of your gods existence. If you have no verifiable proof, I think I will just keep my belief in reality and avoid putting my faith in a god, Santa, and the Easter Bunny.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:37 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          HS....a pack a day of what?

          April 30, 2014 at 9:39 am |
        • HeavenSent

          @gulliblenomore

          Atheists like you throw sand in the air and hope it makes a beach where you can relax with satan (who is the devil). I moved the puppies from the freezer to the oven so I don't have to clean up yet. Keep casting stones across the bay and see what fish swim your way.

          Amen.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:42 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          HS – wow... I guess they got the AOL dial-up working at your trailer-park again

          April 30, 2014 at 9:42 am |
        • HeavenSent

          @gulliblenomore

          Carnal atheist, always worried about yourself and never thinking of others. Your journey to eternity will be warm. My 12-year-old daughter still smokes at the table but her kids quit. It is time for you to start your walk with Jesus.

          Amen.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:46 am |
        • new-man

          HeavenSent,
          good to see you back.
          Blessings!

          April 30, 2014 at 9:47 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          HS....you just confirmed it....you are a nut!

          April 30, 2014 at 9:48 am |
        • jbhollen

          The crime is that this guy's 12 year old daughter is probably having nightmares about getting eaten by worms in hell.

          April 30, 2014 at 10:04 am |
        • Alias

          Why would jesus send worms to hell?

          April 30, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • fintronics

          Heaven Stench.... a nut job on a bad acid trip..

          April 30, 2014 at 11:22 am |
        • colin31714

          I thought it was no longer possible to "borrow" peoples' names. Also, have you see the real Heaven Sent post i nthe last 2 years? I haven't.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
    • moxrox84

      The Bible is the claim, not the proof. In fact, there is no proof to support the validity of any religion in the world at all.

      April 30, 2014 at 9:20 am |
      • new-man

        this is not about religion.
        The Bible is the written word of God. Jesus is the Living word of God who actually lived among men and they beheld His glory.

        You have no experience with God, and hence no proof. However this is only your reality, and has no bearing on the experience of others.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:34 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          "The Bible is the written word of God. Jesus is the Living word of God who actually lived among men and they beheld His glory"

          All alleged hearsay...

          April 30, 2014 at 9:40 am |
        • new-man

          I will take the word of God any day over the supposed logic of man, worse yet, a godless man.

          Blessed is the man who doesn't walk (listen and adhere to) in the council of the ungodly. Friend, I am Blessed beyond measure.
          Enjoy your day.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:45 am |
        • igaftr

          Newmn.
          All you have is the word of man, and in it, they calim to speak for "god" , but there is NOTHING indicating they were right.

          You cling to the word of men, and also make the claim it is god...baseless belief.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:51 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          “Religion: the word of man trying to convince other men that it is the word of God” ~LET

          April 30, 2014 at 10:07 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          new-man: We know the bible is the word of man claiming a god, what we don't know is that a god was involved. To claim otherwise without providing evidence of that gods existence is dishonest. You can take it as you wish but it doesn't make you right or prove anything. If anything it makes you lazy in the sense that you have closed your mind to all other possibilities...a very small, weak minded view to take.

          April 30, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • new-man

          TP:
          Who is we... you may claim knowledge that you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, but that's just your opinion, and as such it is duly noted.

          TP>>> To claim otherwise without providing evidence of that gods existence is dishonest.
          Jesus is the word of God, manifested in the flesh and lived amongst men. Jesus exists and to claim otherwise reveals the claimant as the dishonest one. The Bible is all about Jesus. The OT is Jesus hidden, the NT is Jesus revealed.
          The question you should ask yourself is why Jesus had to be hidden, and from whom.

          Friend, you have disregarded the whole spiritual aspect of your existence and you speak to me about mental laziness. It's your mind that needs to be renewed, but don't worry, I'm not proposing that to you as it's quiet evident that your un-renewed mind is currently at war with God and the things of God.

          April 30, 2014 at 10:56 am |
        • jbhollen

          Which is the harder labor? Thinking for yourself and developing a substantiated world view or falling in line with religious dogma and only having those ideas that are allowed? Which is harder, making cogent comment on that which is flawed in the world or repeating the religious chants that are seen over and over in discussion. I put this back on you. You are lounging in the absolute knowledge that you and yours are right and you refuse or are not allowed any critical thought. Free thinkers on the other hand develop their own views and are constantly open to any valid criticism that might make them reconsider and modify their views for the better. The latter is the work we do that you refuse.

          April 30, 2014 at 11:18 am |
        • fintronics

          @newman ""The Bible is the written word of God."

          LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

          NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

          DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

          JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

          JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

          JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

          Awesome god you have there!!

          April 30, 2014 at 11:30 am |
        • igaftr

          newman
          "you have disregarded the whole spiritual aspect of your existence "
          Yet another false assertion. There is nothing showing any "spritual" anything, so you again have accepted something there is no evidence for, and question those who don't as if you have some basis for belief.

          until you can show something "spiritual" to exist, ti should be disregarded.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:02 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      you have listed stories from your story book. There is no more proof that any of that ever happened or that any of your claims are fact than that Hogwarts is a real school and Harry Potter plays quiddich.

      Grow up!

      April 30, 2014 at 9:23 am |
    • Doris

      newman: "..the blessings do not come to us in intermittent drips, but stream..."

      No, I double-checked my espresso maker. At a glance it looks like a stream, but if you look really closely, it's actually intermittent drips.

      April 30, 2014 at 9:46 am |
    • Akira

      Last time the priest was high during procession, he tripped and burned down half of the nave. Those old pews went up like kindling.

      April 30, 2014 at 11:45 am |
  9. wilburw7

    The church is referred to as the bride of Christ. Brides become wives anyway. But just because someone wrote down something back then would not mean we should just add it to the bible.

    April 30, 2014 at 4:04 am |
    • igaftr

      Why not wilbur? That is the way the bible was written. A bunch of guys wrote stuff down ( that is what scripture means) and it became your bible.

      April 30, 2014 at 8:04 am |
      • nepawoods

        Yes, and there were a bunch of guys who sat around some 300 years after Jesus and decided which books to include, which to toss aside, and what order to put them in.

        April 30, 2014 at 8:19 am |
    • Doris

      wilburrrrr: "But just because someone wrote down something back then would not mean we should just add it to the bible."

      LOL. Thank you, wilbur – I needed a good laugh this morning.

      Of course most of what was written in the Bible is authored by "someone" where we don't really know who; the Gospels for instance.

      April 30, 2014 at 9:29 am |
    • Akira

      Sure. Because that might totally change the inerrant Word of God. We can't have that.

      April 30, 2014 at 12:10 pm |
  10. mocasea

    Wait a minute.... When carbon dating doesn't suit their needs the Orthdoxies call it out for being inaccurate and wholly untrustworthy, but when it puts doubt on something that doesn't fit their dogma, they hold it up as a verifiable fact and proof of forgery? These guys make the American Congress look honest.

    April 30, 2014 at 2:54 am |
    • nclaw441

      I don't really take a position on this "wife of Jesus" question, but I do want to make one point. Christians are hardly a monolithic group. This is bound to be the case when we are talking about faith, and especially on issues that are not clear cut in the Bible. Some believe that the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark accounts are literally true, while others see them as helping the believer of the time understand the underlying concepts that God was trying to teach through His Word. So it is natural for there to be differing views on carbon dating.

      April 30, 2014 at 9:14 am |
      • otoh2

        nclaw,
        "issues that are not clear cut in the Bible."

        What is so difficult about making things clear cut? Is this "God" stupid and inept or a trickster?

        It's almost like 'he' isn't there at all and people over the ages have made up stuff about 'him' - wait, it's exactly like that!

        April 30, 2014 at 12:23 pm |
  11. jcs6

    Adults with imaginary friends.....ARE STUPID!

    April 30, 2014 at 2:27 am |
  12. Doris

    Speaking of holy matrimony, this was in an AP story today:

    =====
    Lawsuit: Unusual Approach Against Gay Marriage Ban
    CHARLOTTE, N.C. April 29, 2014 (AP)
    By MITCH WEISS Associated Press

    A coalition of clergy members filed a novel federal lawsuit Monday against North Carolina's consti.tutional ban on gay marriage, saying it violates their religious freedom.

    The clergy members said that they'd like to perform same-se.x marriage ceremonies in their congregations, but that they can't because of the "unjust law." Their attorney, Jake Sussman, says it's the only case to bring the First Amendment religious freedom claims among the more than 60 marriage equality cases pending in the nation's state and federal courts.

    [..]

    Along with United Church of Christ, which has more than 1 million parishioners, a dozen clergy members and same se.x-couples who want to marry were listed as plaintiffs.

    [..]

    But NC Values Coalition executive director Tami Fitzgerald, who helped lead a coalition of Christian and conservative groups supporting the state's 2012 consti.tutional amendment, said "This is sadly, and predictably, the 'lawsuit of the week' filed by those who want to impose same-se.x marriage on North Carolina," Fitzgerald said. "Moreover, it's both ironic and sad that an entire religious denomination and its clergy who purport holding to Christian teachings on marriage would look to the courts to justify their errant beliefs."
    =====

    My goodness – those Christians and their over 41,000 views on "errant" beliefs; lol.

    In other news, NASA has discovered the coldest star to date that is as cold as the North Pole. I have a funny feeling they are going to nickname it "Theo". Let me see if I still have Mel Brooks number in my Rolodex. I've got a good idea for a movie about these brown dwarfs – maybe for a sequel to Spaceballs – it could be Spaceturds...

    April 30, 2014 at 12:24 am |
    • realbuckyball

      Blazing in Hell Saddles would be fun too,

      April 30, 2014 at 12:55 am |
    • Akira

      Didn't Theo say s/he was from NC? Or some islands thereabouts? Could sworn s/he did.

      The clergy bringing this suit is totally hilarious.

      NC. Making a mockery of equal rights for....well, forever.

      April 30, 2014 at 12:06 pm |
  13. Reality

    The Mormons having been using old papyrus for centuries and appear to be behind the latest con. Their mythical Moroni , however, still is at the peak of Smith's tall tales.

    April 29, 2014 at 11:56 pm |
    • Reality

      Oops, make that "Mormons have been.......
      "

      April 30, 2014 at 7:29 am |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        Mormon...the second "m" is silent.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:34 am |
  14. Jeebusss

    Arguing about this is like someone in the year 4028 arguing about some bad Harry Potter fan fiction that was written in in the year 2915. Someone added some more fiction to a fictional story 900 years after the original authors. Who cares? It is an irrelevant discussion.

    April 29, 2014 at 11:08 pm |
    • nclaw441

      Jeebusss, I understand that for you it is fiction. For many others it is not. Neither of us can prove the other wrong.

      April 30, 2014 at 9:19 am |
      • jbhollen

        So let's look at it this way. What is provable today are the laws of physics applied to the known universe I think everyone agrees that these are the baseline. So using Occam's razor, what is most likely. The universe exists as it is, observable and adherent to the known laws of physics or there are forces at work that control everything and everyone but they are invisible, untestable, unobservable, etc, etc. In a rational world which of these is most likely?

        April 30, 2014 at 9:59 am |
  15. jenallen4

    And let the hateful comments that have nothing to do with the original subject begin...

    April 29, 2014 at 10:06 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Sadly you are a bit late to that party.

      April 29, 2014 at 10:28 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Taken from her page: "Rely on God because He is your best friend! Talk to God on a daily basis. Not just when you need him. He will always listen "

      And someone allows this woman to brainwash children and then have the audacity to speak about hateful comments while adding none of her own??? Talk about hypocrisy! Anyone who raises children to think an imaginary, unproven deity is their best friend is seriously flawed in their reasoning and is failing their children. Bad parenting at best.

      April 30, 2014 at 8:35 am |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        What's the definition of 'sanctimonious' again?

        April 30, 2014 at 9:37 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Referring to my comment or the quote from her page? If you were referring to me, being sanctimonious is not what I was attempting to come across as.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:53 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          The quotes from her page...

          April 30, 2014 at 10:04 am |
      • jenallen4

        He proves himself to me on a daily basis. Sadly you will never know the peace and comfort that I do. Your venom is a perfect example.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:27 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Well....goody for you that he proves himself to you every day. He actually hasn't said cr-ap to me....ever....I guess because I don't really need him, where you have an obvious need for that type of crutch. Good luck with your life.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:36 pm |
        • jenallen4

          My post is proving it's point.
          I don't need luck. I have God which always works in my favor. I hope your "luck" does the same.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:43 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          It has, actually...,I've done just fine without your invisible deity. Other people that I know that are quite religious have not fared so well. Tell me....when you get sick, do you just pray that the sickness will be cured or do you go to human doctors for relief?

          May 1, 2014 at 8:10 am |
        • jenallen4

          I have no insurance so I stay home and pray. Next question! Go!

          May 1, 2014 at 7:03 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Sadly what you mistake to be him is not him considering he can't be proven to exist. No venom, just being realistic. The Christian god is an immoral god who condones slavery; child abuse; oppression of women/LGBT; tells rape victims to marry their attacker and that is the peace you want?? That's not healthy or moral. Read your bible at face value-it is the quickest way to disbelief.

          May 1, 2014 at 5:39 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          And how would you know who would know peace and comfort? Some of us simply don't require imaginary friend to know those things and you have broken your own guidelines with your book of fairy tales by jdging...it is your hell, enjoy it-silly little girl that has sinned!!

          May 1, 2014 at 5:45 am |
    • seedenbetter

      Hateful comments = those comments that I disagree with.

      April 30, 2014 at 10:13 am |
      • jenallen4

        Hateful comments = those comments that scream pure disdain for any sort of belief in any deity when it has nothing to do with the original post. The venom seeps from the majority of the human race's pores.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:38 pm |
  16. saggyroy

    I like how the Christians agree that this is fake because science has helped to shown it is. If was shown to be genuine, but went against their beliefs, they would say that carbon dating doesn't work.

    April 29, 2014 at 8:16 pm |
    • observer

      Very good point. It's all pick-and-choose.

      April 29, 2014 at 8:18 pm |
    • guidedans

      Except that this article just demonstrated how carbon dating doesn't always work.

      You guys keep trusting your science. We will keep trusting our God. When we die one day, I guess we will see who's right.

      April 29, 2014 at 8:42 pm |
      • observer

        guidedans,

        Keep typing how you trash science and then EXPECT that science will send your "wisdom" all over the world in a second or two on the Internet.

        Well done.

        April 29, 2014 at 8:47 pm |
      • MidwestKen

        @guidedans,
        What do you mean it didn't work? The papyrus is ancient. No one disputes that. Whether someone forged this on ancient papyrus is apparently still open for debate, but the dating works.

        April 29, 2014 at 8:48 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Name one thing you can demonstrate to be true (conforms to reality) using your religion....

        April 29, 2014 at 9:10 pm |
        • gmouser777

          This is kinda funny, actually. The earth is round – Isaiah 40:22.

          April 30, 2014 at 1:38 am |
        • Sungrazer

          gmouser777,

          That verse describes the Earth as a flat disc, not a sphere. Isaiah 11:12 describes the Earth as flat as well, but with four corners.

          April 30, 2014 at 8:40 am |
        • seedenbetter

          That verse describes a circle which is a one dimensional flat disc. The Earth is a sphere. Fail.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:08 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Also that is a statement, not a demonstration.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:20 am |
      • In Santa We Trust

        ans, Have you ever wondered why some science is acceptable and other science is not when they all use pretty much the same method? You're OK using GPS and don't question its accuracy yet dating techniques using basically the same scientific principle are quakery? Anything that adds to the mountain of evidence showing the flaws in religious texts is errant according to many believers. Face the facts – there is no evidence for any god.

        April 29, 2014 at 9:18 pm |
        • nclaw441

          Santa– I don't think you will find much serious disagreement that people of faith cannot prove that God exists. If that proof were available there'd be no need for faith. Are there things that you believe exist but cannot prove? Do you, for example, believe that love exists? or courage? or compassion? or fear? Can you prove their existence?

          April 30, 2014 at 9:24 am |
        • G to the T

          "Are there things that you believe exist but cannot prove? Do you, for example, believe that love exists? or courage? or compassion? or fear? Can you prove their existence?"

          I think we differ on the word "exists" in this context. "Love", "courage", "compassion", etc. exist in both a subjective and objective sense. In the subjective sense, they are descriptions of an emotional state, in the objective they are descriptions of the physical state of the brain when experiencing these emotions.

          Love, courage, etc. don't exist apart from the brains of humans (and probably some animals to various degrees).

          April 30, 2014 at 11:43 am |
        • jbhollen

          We see evidence of behaviors that might be attributable to love, courage and compassion but that does not prove they exist within a person. You can say you love someone but can you love be proved? You can exhibit all of the actions that one would associate with love, but on the inside you may loathe the other person. Same goes for your other examples. So no, your analogy does not prove anything.

          April 30, 2014 at 11:58 am |
        • G to the T

          "We see evidence of behaviors that might be attributable to love, courage and compassion but that does not prove they exist within a person."

          We can scan the brainwaves of a person expressing love and then compare it to others expressing love. The one that doesn't match the pattern is lying. See? It's not so hard. Not sure why people keep using love as an example of an "unprovable". It's all brain chemistry after all.

          April 30, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
        • jbhollen

          I did the research. Love is not detectible via brainwaves. It can't be scientifically detected and neither can invisible friends with mystical powers.

          April 30, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
      • Madtown

        trusting our God.
        --
        "Our" God? Yours? What about other human's version of God? Who is correct, and how would you know for certain?

        April 29, 2014 at 9:19 pm |
        • cashed

          Will all of you please just shut up?

          April 29, 2014 at 9:38 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          No

          April 29, 2014 at 9:43 pm |
        • Akira

          I will not be ignored!

          Cashed, you're welcome not to read this blog if it is too loud for you.

          April 29, 2014 at 9:57 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          "Will all of you please just shut up?"

          Sure when Christians stop trying to invoke their belief in to the public school system; when Christians stop trying to deny equal rights to people; when they stop screaming murderer at the women who are taking control over the personal bodies; when they stop denying science but yet use it as they need to; when they stop telling people believe or else suffer...until then we will keep it up. That respect Christians demand goes both ways.

          April 30, 2014 at 8:13 am |
      • realbuckyball

        Actually you never will. When you die, your brain ceases to function. You will never know anything further. It's now or never. There is no mechanism for post-mortem preservation of consciousness. Proof ? All sorts of it. People who have injured brains are unbale to think normally or process information or sensory input. When you're dead, you're dead. Period. Religionists can't handle the truth. We are mortal.

        April 29, 2014 at 11:07 pm |
      • jbhollen

        I don't know how you are going to "see who's right". In all likelihood when you die, the lights go out and that's it. If indeed believers go to some magical place it is carefully engineered that they can't prove where they went to anyone still living.

        April 29, 2014 at 11:39 pm |
      • halfdime1

        Well if you dont like science all that much, why are you using a computer to post comments on the internet? And if you get sick, do you go to a doctor, or pray the sickness away?

        April 30, 2014 at 4:45 am |
        • nclaw441

          half– If you don't believe in the existence of God, why use a Belief blog?

          April 30, 2014 at 9:28 am |
        • halfdime1

          So what you are asking is if I dont believe in God, why do I use the internet and go to websites?

          April 30, 2014 at 9:53 am |
      • sam stone

        "we'll find out which one is right"

        not if we both just expire

        April 30, 2014 at 6:10 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        "You guys keep trusting your science. We will keep trusting our God"

        Okay, the next time you need medical attention trust god and not science, see how far that gets you. Don't use a computer (main concept is an Atheist invention-look up Alan Turing). It's funny how you trust god for the silly things but yet depend on the inventions of science to survive...such hypocrisy.

        April 30, 2014 at 6:47 am |
      • samsstones

        guide...
        Can you please explain why your god seems to be stuck in the first century? For a deity that could perform all kinds of supernatural miracles and create such a diverse life system, he seems to have gotten really stupid. I mean even a jesus freaking nutter like you can communicate through modern technology but your ignorant vindictive pr!ck of a god cannot!!!
        Pretty stupid god you have there.

        April 30, 2014 at 7:47 am |
      • colin31714

        Gidedans, you said, "You guys keep trusting your science. We will keep trusting our God." How about next time you are sick, don't trust science. Pray for a miracle cure. Now that is a real test. See how far you get. If you haven't got the guts/stupidity to do so, then knock off the tough talk and admit you DON'T trust in your sky god. You pay doing so lip service while safely nestled in the arms of medical science.

        April 30, 2014 at 9:01 am |
    • tiglathpileser1

      Not taht I particularly care about this one way or the other but isn't your arguement exactly the same? Scientific testing was wrong in the first case and you are still standing behind it (I'm assuming), dont see any difference between your position and these so called 'christians' you speak of.

      April 30, 2014 at 1:31 am |
      • saggyroy

        My point was that if the science agrees with religious dogma, the believers use it to bolster their position. If it disagrees, but is correct they dismiss the science.

        April 30, 2014 at 5:44 am |
        • samsstones

          saggyroy
          I believe that on this blog you are referring to Toprherism or Phileoidiotism; the ability to reject any knowledge which disagrees with their a priori beliefs.

          April 30, 2014 at 7:34 am |
    • mrdavidrowe

      I guess you missed this part:

      'This forgery was detected not through lab analysis but through good old-fashioned humanities-based detective work. This was Sherlock Holmes, not "CSI."'

      But nevertheless, it's only idiot Christians that disbelieve science. I try to avoid being one of them.

      April 30, 2014 at 7:25 am |
      • halfdime1

        "This forgery was detected not through lab analysis but through good old-fashioned humanities-based detective work. This was Sherlock Holmes, not "CSI."

        I was wondering about this. So did they or did they not use carbon dating? And how did they test the ink?

        April 30, 2014 at 7:39 am |
        • G to the T

          They used carbon dating for both (and both lined up with expectations of how old it was thought to be). It was discovered to be fraud because the handwriting matches another piece from same collection known to be a fraud and because the text lines up (perfectly!) with an online edition of the Gospel of Thomas that uses an older translation.

          April 30, 2014 at 2:06 pm |
  17. Joe Helfrich

    This thing was obviously a fake from the start.

    It said Jesus was a real person.

    April 29, 2014 at 7:42 pm |
    • tiglathpileser1

      No educated person alive believes that Jsus wasn't a real person, the rest of his claims may be argued but the coversation of whether he actually existed or not is long over.

      April 30, 2014 at 1:34 am |
      • Sungrazer

        The few contemporary or near-contemporary sources for the existence of Jesus are dubious. Jesus may have existed, but by no stretch can it be proven. The same can be said about Socrates.

        April 30, 2014 at 8:30 am |
  18. scubagirl34

    I am not a scientist, nor an intellectual. Most of my life I never gave any real thought about whether or not there was a God. And no one could convince me. It was through personal experience that I was convinced, and mine is a life that was changed.
    Some things in life, like love can't be proven. But this I know, Jesus changed my life and has changed my heart in ways that nothing in this world ever did.

    April 29, 2014 at 7:41 pm |
    • In Santa We Trust

      Some people claim to have been abducted by aliens.

      April 29, 2014 at 9:13 pm |
      • G to the T

        And on that same note, many Scientologist say that their lives have been changed for the better and nothing untrue could possibly create such positive outcomes (oh and they believe in aliens and a bunch of other weird crap).

        April 30, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
    • mikkj1

      You changed your life and gave jesus the credit. It's a fair trade, because you can also give him the blame. That way your not responsible for anything.

      April 29, 2014 at 10:10 pm |
    • jbhollen

      Did Jesus really change your life? Tell me, what does he look like? Oh, you didn't see him? So then tell me what does he sound like? Oh, you didn't hear him either? I assume you know someone that has seen him and heard him. No? Well there must be some really solid repeatable empirical evidence that proves to everyone that without a doubt he is still around 2000 years after he died the first time. No? Well in that case it sounds like you were sold a bill of goods.

      April 29, 2014 at 11:49 pm |
      • tiglathpileser1

        Huh, interesting line of reasoning. I'm going to make a leap and assume you believe in evolution (as I do), I would apply the same line of reasoning to you if you do (if not just ignore me)...
        1) Have you witnessed evolution (change of species not category)
        2) Do you know anyone who has witnessed it?
        (just incase you missed it the answers are no and no)

        April 30, 2014 at 1:38 am |
        • jbhollen

          Yes, it is witnessable. Micro evolution has been witnessed and macro evolution is substantiated by fossil records including transitional steps. If there were similar proofs of god I would be a believer.

          April 30, 2014 at 5:48 am |
        • joey3467

          If you believe in evolution then why still be a Christian? Evolution means no literal Adam and Eve, and thus no original sin. Which means there is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus to forgive it. To me Christianity makes no sense whatsoever without a literal reading of Genesis.

          April 30, 2014 at 12:55 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        wow....so how does a blind/deaf person know reality then? sounds like you got yourself in a corner there......we hear Jesus...we don't see him....a blind person hears and yet not see......if your argument were true..we would all pity blind people

        April 30, 2014 at 2:21 am |
        • sam stone

          you hear jesus?

          is he speaking aramaic, or english?

          April 30, 2014 at 6:20 am |
        • kermit4jc

          silly question....If I hear Jesus and such...I would hear in the English....why talk to me in another language that I don tknow? so silly

          April 30, 2014 at 7:13 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          How do you know it's jesus and not some other imaginary god? To claim it is jesus when you have no way of knowing is dishonest.

          April 30, 2014 at 6:27 am |
        • halfdime1

          When you "hear" Jesus, does he says "Kermit this is Jesus," or does he say "Kermit this is Yeshua ben Josephus." And I too when like to know what language he speaks when you hear him.

          April 30, 2014 at 7:25 am |
    • halfdime1

      Scubagirl "I am not a scientist, nor an intellectual."

      Kind of explains why you buy into the whole Jesus myth....

      April 30, 2014 at 4:49 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        I thought the same thing. Lack of intelligence usually explains a strong belief in the Christian god (just look at the poster kermi who claims he's a psychologist but yet he hears voices that he claims are his god and jesus).

        April 30, 2014 at 6:54 am |
        • halfdime1

          @ Truth

          I've been keeping up with the belief blog for awhile now, and finally decided to join in the converstation. Your'e spot on about Kermi. Kermi is a riot, I usually feel a hint of frustration mixed with the urge to laugh whenever I read his/her posts.

          April 30, 2014 at 7:13 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Kermi tends to be quite ignorant of facts. There are far too many people like him in this world though and they are proof of what a lack of education can do to one. Personally I find it hard to accept anything he says as truth when he denies that LGBT is natural; supports the bible and all the horror in it (giving slavery, rape, child abuse a free pass b/c his god condoned and his god could never be wrong). He refuses to answer questions posed to him and tends to turn things around to make it look like he is the all powerful, all knowing one when there is so much that contradicts him. I'm doubting the boy made it much past the 8th grade. I do know he's conceited and obnoxious...show him where he is wrong and he throws a child like temper tantrum. He's part of the problem with this world and he'll unfortunately never comprehend how it is that he is seen that way. So while he awaits his imaginary friends return, the rest of us are left to do the right thing and fight to ensure voices like his are silenced.

          April 30, 2014 at 7:46 am |
        • jbhollen

          I ignore kermi and don't reply to anything he writes. He is a nutter. He posted that god slaughtered all the innocent children in the flood because he loved them and he killed everyone else because they "asked for it." Really creepy stuff. We'll see this guy on the news someday.

          April 30, 2014 at 9:32 am |
        • kermit4jc

          you are the nutter jb for making up carp about someone..yowont see me in the news..sorry to disappoint you...you are such a arrogant idiot who lumnps everyone together.......what are you ..a teenager?

          April 30, 2014 at 7:19 pm |
        • halfdime1

          I hear ya truth. Its always the same with delusional people. It's hard for logical people, freethinkers, rationalists, and skeptics to engage with people who effectively have their fingers in their ears, going la la la i don't hear you.

          April 30, 2014 at 7:56 am |
        • kermit4jc

          knock off the arrogance..free thinkers? HAH..logical? HA>.I have yet to see any intellectual person use context and such for the BIble when they argue.....don't be so arrogant and call yourselves free thinkers...its a misnomer

          April 30, 2014 at 7:15 pm |
  19. HeavenSent

    We Christians come on these articles to speak the Truth about Jesus Christ. Atheists are too prideful and filled with pride to accept they are not themselves mini-gods. My camel-toe is home to a litter of otters. Start walking on Jesus' side of the pool or drown.

    Amen.

    April 29, 2014 at 6:51 pm |
    • whippstippler7

      Just ONE litter of otters?

      April 29, 2014 at 7:02 pm |
      • HeavenSent

        @whippstippler7

        Atheists spew their hatred for Jesus on this blog but will soon understand the error of their ways. My bosses treated me the same way you do. The otters wouldn't get out of the couch cushion. It is time for you to start your walk with Jesus.

        Amen.

        April 29, 2014 at 7:10 pm |
        • jbhollen

          Atheists don't hate Jesus any more than than we hate spongebob. In both cases, how can you have hatred for a cartoon?

          April 30, 2014 at 12:03 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          jb: This is a poe. The original Heaven Sent was less obvious.

          April 30, 2014 at 6:31 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          The original HS was a hateful repetitive nutcase... at least this person is just a mildly annoying/humorous nutcase

          April 30, 2014 at 10:12 am |
    • unsername1

      Mr Haven't Sent, I hate to debate with you again but who was on the cross Jesus or Judas?

      April 29, 2014 at 8:20 pm |
    • mangog7117

      You are confused and arrogant . You deny Stellar Evolution as it occurs in front of your eyes. Your self serving arrogant claim to TRILLIONS TO THE TRILLIONTH power of extra years of Life is so absurd it reeks of insanity. You are Stardust deny it all you want Physics cares not Caveman Thinker.

      April 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm |
      • gmouser777

        "Stellar Evolution". Interesting. The odd part about all of this is that people like Hawking don't claim that there IS no god, but that it's unnecessary to explain the workings of the universe. This is because scientific orthodoxy insists that we can't know what existed before the bang (or one of the bangs... after all the idea that there was one is rooted in Judeo-Christian thought).

        What people really miss, in the science vs. religion debate is that they're answering two entirely different questions. Science is striving to explain how processes work, whereas religion is trying to explain why they work the way they do. Fundamentally different. And each of these disciplines stumbles when they try to answer the others' primary question.

        April 30, 2014 at 1:47 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          People like Hawking don't claim it because they're not working to prove one or the other but you can be guaranteed that Hawking is an Atheist.

          April 30, 2014 at 6:32 am |
  20. doomsdayZen

    In John 19:26 Jesus tells His mother that one of His disciples is her son, but that didn't mean that she had a long lost son she never knew about. It's metaphorical. In this same way, who knows what this fragment really means without knowing the full context - whether it is authentic or not.

    April 29, 2014 at 6:46 pm |
    • Concert in an Egg

      We know exactly what we believe is true whether we use undiscovered evidence or just the television.

      April 29, 2014 at 7:17 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Actually we know no such thing. The only thing we really *know*, is that the writer of the Gospel of John "placed those words in on his lips" (a literary device). Ancient Near Eastern literature used all sort of literary devices, for all sorts of reasons. A "gospel" is in no was "history". A gospel is a proclamation of belief by believers, for believers, about what they believed. There were many many gospels. The long HUMAN process of canon formation left four. Why ? Because the Roman Emperor wanted the number cut down to four, and it was justified by Euseubius because "there are 4 winds, and 4 pillars upon which the Earth stands". There were all sorts of strange "goings-on" in the Gnostic gospels. The church attempted to hide and eradicate them. Too bad they found a bunch at Nag Hamadi. Early Christianity was VERY diverse, and "orthodoxy" was unknown. This fragment may be a forgery. So what ? Parts of John were "invented" ... the day of the death was changed to make Jesus appear to be the "sacrificial (paschal) lamb", in John Jesus gives a long speech at the trial, (which we KNOW never happened as the Sanhedrin never once in all of Jewish history was called into session on Passover weekend), the synoptics say he was silent. They can't BOTH be true. If Jesus was NOT married it was VERY unusual. There was only ONE other Rabbi who wasn't, and it was SO unusual, everyone talked about it. The presumption should be he was married, as it was necessary for the integration and affirmation of ANY male in that culture. "Celibacy" was NOT valued in a culture in which reproduction was the way to achieve immortality. Not being married would be a flaw, not a virtue. But since there is no reason to think, or way to know there ever was a Jesus of Nazareth, it's all totally irrelevant.

      April 29, 2014 at 10:43 pm |
      • gmouser777

        It is certainly true that the Roman Empire annihilated the previous setup of the churches, which were entirely independent. They applied the Roman hierarchical military structure to the religion.

        April 30, 2014 at 1:49 am |
      • jbhollen

        Agreed. A single man would have been viewed with doubts at best and as aberrant at worst. Regarding portions of John being forgeries at least one part is accepted as a forgery by most theologians . The story of the adu.lteress (John 7:53 – 8:11) was added in the 5th century and appears in no earlier copies. If this forgery exists others can too.

        April 30, 2014 at 1:36 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.