By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Editor
(CNN) - Young Latinos are leaving the Catholic Church in droves, according to a new study, with many drifting into the country's fastest-growing religious movement: the nones.
Nearly a third of Latino adults under 30 don't belong to a faith group, according to a large survey released Tuesday by the Pew Research Center. That's a leap of 17 percentage points in just the last three years.
While the demise of organized religion, specifically Catholicism, is most dramatic among young Latinos, the overall shifts are broad-based, according to Pew, affecting men and women; foreign-born and U.S. natives; college graduates and those with less formal education.
The trends highlighted by Pew's Latino survey also mirror large-scale shifts in the American population as whole.
According to other studies conducted by Pew in recent years, nearly a third of all millennials - Americans between the ages of 18-33 - are religiously unaffiliated, a dramatic and ongoing change from previous generations.
“One of the most striking recent trends in the American religious landscape has been the growing share of the unaffiliated, and this study allows us to see where Latinos fit into that story,” said Cary Funk, a senior researcher at the Pew Research Center and one of the co-authors of the study.
“At the same time, understanding religious change among Latinos is important for understanding how this growing group may be reshaping the American religious landscape more broadly.”
The overall breakdown of the nation's estimated 35.4 million Latinos is: 55% Catholic, 22% Protestant and 18% unaffiliated.
That's bad news for the Catholic Church, which has seen a 12 percentage-point drop in Hispanic members since 2010, with most of the losses coming from former Catholics under 50.
As recently as years ago, two-thirds of Latinos were Catholic; now nearly one in four Hispanic adults is a former Catholic, according to Pew.
The most common reasons for leaving the faith?
More than half (55%) say they just "drifted away" from organized religion. A similar number (52%), say they no longer believed in the teachings of their childhood religion.
A smaller number of Latinos (4 percentage points) have left Catholicism to become evangelical Protestants, according to Pew.
"Outreach to the Hispanic community is a top priority for the Catholic Church as the huge growth in the Hispanic community offers a challenge to keep up with the pastoral needs," said Sister Mary Ann Walsh, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
"The Hispanic community, however, is not immune from the nation’s growing secularism, which concerns all religions, as church attendance seems less important to people," Walsh continued, "and people move from religion to religion and declare themselves spiritual rather than religiously affiliated."
The Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, head of the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Council, said he was surprised by the sharp rise in Latino "nones."
“They are saying: established religions of both denominations are not attracting me. And I think it’s a wake-up call for Catholics and evangelicals to allocate all our resources on the next generation.”
The survey was conducted in English and Spanish between May 24-July 28, 2013, among a sample of 5,103 Hispanic adults living in the United States, according to Pew.
The margin of error for results based on all respondents is plus or minus 2.1 percentage points.
CNN's Gustavo Valdes contributed to this report.
These data are not inconsistent with the population trends across all groups. While 80%+ Americans self-identify as Christians, many fewer actually attend church or practice their faith in any significant way. And those data are much higher than data on 20-somethings across all groups. The polling data suggest that overall, perhaps 1/3 or a little more actually practice their faith.
While atheists and other secular Humanists may rejoice, this is not good news for the nation. Religion, and specifically the practice of Christianity with integrity, serves to strengthen the family and the community. One major reason we have huge political divides, and both sides can be blamed for this, is that we are losing our sense of family and community. The attacks on the church are part of the problem.
But a major part of the problem is that churches are not identifying the root causes and dealing with them effectively. We will have to wait for a decade or so to see the full outcome. But I am not optimistic.
"identifying the root causes"
Like the whole religion is based on a book that has had several parts proven wrong, and people are getting better educated and seeing that beliefs based on the works of ignorant men do not coincide with reality...you mean THAT rrot cause?
This is great news. And probably an insight into one of the reasons why the RCC picked a Hispanic pope. This ethnicity is one of the biggest chunks of their flock.
Although I'm an atheist, it matters little to me whether these people become atheists or not. By leaving a specific religion, they are already a big step of the way there. It means that they are thinking for themselves–and that is the most important thing, and that they are less likely to indoctrinate their children into a specific religion and a rigid dogmatic way of thinking.
I started out, partially indoctrinated as a "Biblical Christian" and believed in the Bible and called myself a Christian through the early years of my life, until I read the Bible cover to cover without anyone telling me what to think–in my late teens. Then I still said "I believe in God" for many years. Then I called myself "spiritual, but not religious" for many years, then I said I was agnostic, and eventually I realized I really didn't believe in gods, and that it was okay to admit I was an atheist. I see our society gradually moving through this sort of progression. So leaving a religion and saying "none" is a step in the right direction.
So it's true the; besides being Fanatical, idolaters are very much alike their siblings atheists/evolutionists/cultists/pagans. All of which makes atheism/evolutionism/cultism/paganism and of course Idolatry an Absolute, Complete and Total NONSENSE [stupidity].
Frederick the Great-
Calvinism, Head of the German Lutheran Church, (personal) deism
Now we know why FTG is RB's hero.
I venerate Frederic like a Catholic venerates any saint.
Good for you, Rainy
i guess that makes you every bit the idolator as you claim they are
Besides being Fanatical, idolaters are very much alike their siblings atheists/evolutionists/cultists/pagans. All of which makes atheism/evolutionism/cultism/paganism and of course Idolatry an Absolute, Complete and Total NONSENSE.
One teensy weensy little problem with all your nonsensical posts. You call names, assert all kings of things, but are unable to construct a coherent argument even once to support anything you say. ALso your use of bad English demonstrates you have no education. You're like a White Supremacist afraid of other races, because you KNOW everyone is smarter and more educated than you are. You are like a closeted ho'mophobic gay. YOU are afraid of atheism, as you are likely one yourself, and can't admit it.
Methinks you doth protest too much.
I know one thing and it is that you're a Prime Example of what I've been saying all along. Your unsubstantiated claims of an "education" will not exempt you from being an extreme hypocrite and a Compulsive pathological Liar. The most "educated" among us are; so why wouldn't you be? Not only that among those there are as has always been, delinquents and criminals, thieves, perjurers, and perverts.
So again atheism/evolutionism/cultism/paganism and idolatry are Absolute, Complete and Total NONSENSE [stupidity] now and Forevermore.
Lol – thanks for providing a good demonstration of what realbuckeyball was speaking of... that is, that you certainly don't seem to be able to construct a coherent argument to support what you say.
Thanks for proving what I've been saying all along!!
Prov. 14:1 The wise woman builds her house, but the foolish tears it down with her own hands.
My oh my, Sal, where would you be without your parrot to tell you what to repeat?
Fits finisher, Salero to a T:
Prejudice refers to an evaluation of another person based on their perceived group membership. Prejudice can also refer to unfounded beliefs and may include "any unreasonable att.tude that is unusually resistant to rational influence.
Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust or hatred.
Most religious people I know are good people. Their delusion is limited to the religious realm.
Rainer is an exception. His comments reveal a broad intellectual delusion that covers religious belief, public governance, and social structure. I feel for that person, mental illness is a sad thing.
There is a simple reason for the decline of Christian-like religions and true Christian religion worldwide:
The Western power elite is no more Christian-like, but extremly materialistic or capitalistic and selfish. For a while they could endure Catholicism, cheap-grace-Protestantism, etc. because these religions did not keep their believers from being somewhat materialistic. Yet, the extreme materialism (promoted by the current power elite) of today is apparently no more compatible with the soft materialism of the Christian-like religions. Seemingly the power elite has become so Satanic or anti-Christian that they are yet disturbed through the smallest remembrance of Christianity (the religion of unselfish love and righteousness) awakened through Catholicism, cheap-grace-Protestantism, or true Christianity.
The former monarchs may have been no true Christians, but a least they were Christian-like, and kept some Christian traditions, and were not complete materialistic. They felt for their peoples, and tried to promote their holistic happiness.
Solution: Either Jesus returns and straightens up, or God gives us a new powerful pious monarch who destroys the current evil power elite, and supports again the Christian Church.
"Benevolent dictator" is an oxymoron.
"The Divine Right of Kings" is a hoax – nothing more than a tool of statecraft that has been blunted by democracy.
Democracy is a very great hypocrisy. Peoples are kept in the fiction they could elect their leaders.
What is the truth?
The current members of parties which ordinary citizens can elect, are not the real rulers. The real rulers are in the background, and the elected rulers are only their puppets.
Certainly Obama and Merkel don't work for the sake of the happiness of their peoples, but for the sake of the maximum profit of the power elite in the background.
This should be straightened up by a pious monarch who is more concerned for the ordinary people than for the rich power elite.
Can you name a single benevolent dictator?
One of the greatest miracles at all which the almighty God could do to us, is to give us a pious ruler.
There have been only a few pious rulers in history.
When a pious ruler emerges that means a very great intervention by God in history, infinite grace.
Name just one.
Frederic the Great, King of Pruzzia, leader of Enlightenment, enemy of Machiavelli, and the greedy Habsburgians.
Frederic released Europe from the slavery of the Habsburgians. Regretably his great work was destroyed after his death through the French Revolution which spread gradually to Germany, and later the labor movement. The got up bourgeoisie and the crazy laborers brought new doom over Europe.
I'm not surprised that you buy into the mythologized version of old Fritz.
"We have too many Jews in the towns. They are needed on the Polish border because in these areas Hebrews alone perform trade. As soon as you get away from the frontier, the Jews become a disadvantage, they form cliques, they deal in contraband and get up to all manner of rascally tricks which are detrimental to Christian burghers and merchants. I have never persecuted anyone from this or any other sect; I think, however, it would be prudent to pay attention, so that their numbers do not increase."
If later German leaders had acted according to these statement of Frederic, the Holocaust had never occured. Frederic had got divine wisdom.
Very wise of Frederic: " I think, however, it would be prudent to pay attention, so that their numbers do not increase.”
Later German leaders allowed the immigration of too many Jews and too much emancipation of them. That was one reason of the Holocaust.
We cannot ignore reality without facing harsh consequences.
Frederic was not friendly to Roman Catholics in Poland.
Generally he was very tolerant. He himself was a Protestant (he was baptized). I don't know every detail.
Frederic was very aware of the danger of bigotry. He allowed French Calvinists who were persecuted by Catholic France to settle in Pruzzia. But what happened? The Calvinists themselves persecuted the Lutherans of Pruzzia.
“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”
So you're saying that if there were fewer Jews, the Third Reich wouldn't have killed so many of them?
Let us be honest. Some complaints of the Germans against the Jews were certainly true, whereby this had never justified the Holocaust. Though there were yet complaints until the end of WWI nearly nobody in Germany intended to wipe out the Jews.
If Hitler's resentments had not had some historical basis nobody had believed him.
I guess the core problem was the following:
Hitler and a lot of other military people where convinced that Germany had lost WWI because of the impact of Jewish Marxists. Probably that caused the deep hatred of Hitler and other military leaders against the Jews.
And how do you control the number of Jews? Force them to leave their homes? Regulate the number of children?
Does your morality condone translocation of a people?
It did for Hitler..., he was a Christian, I'm guessing Rainey is a closet Nazi
After all better than extermination.
Translocation is bearable, if there is enough support by the government.
Frederic's main tenet was that he wanted to minimize the suffering of any citizen of Pruzzia including the Jewish Pruzzians. He was a good merciful leader.
Frederic was a very good and wise leader because he did not ignore the following:
Jews are inclined to at least two extremities: Extrem marxism and extrem capitalism. Both is harmful for any society. Of course, this no justification for Holocaust, and Frederic never got the idea to wipe out the Jews, but he pursued measures of soft regulation.
Rainer, you don't even realize you are a bigot. Your generalization of an entire people is astonishing:
"Jews are inclined to at least two extremities: Extrem marxism and extrem capitalism. Both is harmful for any society. Of course, this no justification for Holocaust, and Frederic never got the idea to wipe out the Jews, but he pursued measures of soft regulation."
I love the Jews despite their "inclinations". They are still God's chosen people Israel according to the old covenants. If they would accept Jesus from Nazareth as their Messiah today, God could cure them holistically.
God bless Israel for ever and ever. May they realize their Messiah.
Like I said, you don't even recognize your bigotry. Do you actually think you have studied enough Jews worldwide that you know they have inclinations? Your delusions are profound.
"Let us be honest. Some complaints of the Germans against the Jews were certainly true, whereby this had never justified the Holocaust."
Okay, let's be honest Rainy. Theo Corn Pone said that the jews deserved the holocaust because they broke their covenant with god. And, we all know that corn pone, like you and gopher and several other of the pseudo pious on these blogs, are god's official spokespersons.
What are good followers of god to do but exact this punishment on the jews?
The Holocaust was an awful crime, and there is no justification for that.
The Jews have yet been punished by God through the destruction of their ancient state by the Romans. Certainly unique in history that a people lost its complete homeland, and were scattered all over the world. Really a severe punishment.
We are all guilty of misinterpreting the law of the Torah. Like the Jews we try to keep the law of the Torah by our natural power which is impossible.
The law should make us feel our sinfulness. We are so sinful that we sin more instead of less when God gives us commands.
Solution: We and the Jews should cry out for a redeemer (the Messiah Yeshua) in order to get delivered. The sin must get dethroned, our old man of sin must get declared dead through Jesus death. We have died and resurrected together with Jesus, if we repent, believe in Jesus, and get sacramentally baptized.
If we don't find Jesus during our earthly life, we will face a rude awakening at Judgement Day.
Dead for the sin and in Jesus we are able to overcome our natural selfishness. A life of love of neighbour is not in conflict with the law of the Torah thus we fulfill the law through Jesus' power.
" A life of love of neighbour...
When will you be starting ?
Just more garbage coming out in RB's bigoted brain !!!
"There is a simple reason for the decline of Christian-like religions and true Christian religion worldwide"
Because people see them as a load of dung?
Only Rainey knows the truth and what's best for humans. He's a true Fascist if ever there was one. He NEEDS to impose his opinions on others. Heil Ranier.
The Western power elite is no more Christian-like, but extremly materialistic or capitalistic and selfish. For a while they could endure Catholicism, cheap-grace-Protestantism, etc. because these religions did not keep their believers from being somewhat materialistic. Yet, the extreme materialism (promoted by the current power elite) of today is apparently no more compatible with the atti-tude of our current power elite. Seemingly the power elite has become so Satanic or anti-Christian that they are yet disturbed through the smallest remembrance of Christianity (the religion of unselfish love and righteousness) awakened through Catholicsm, cheap-grace-Protestantism, or true Christianity.
Why doesn't your god just show himself? Why the childish games?
In all fairness it's not just Jesus. No God has ever shown itself. As a group, gods are shy. I'd love to see one. We'd all believe, and we could all move on.
In the news (NY Daily News):
Christians in Virginia plan 40-day fast to protest gay marriage
The Family Foundation of Virginia is asking Christians across the country to fast and pray for 40 days this summer to protest the legalization of gay marriage. A federal judge overturned Virginia’s same-se.x marriage ban in February.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/christians-virginia-plan-40-day-fast-fight-gay-marriage-article-1.1772915#ixzz31Az4ZslN
Okee dokee. Looking forward to a slightly easier time at the grocery store this summer.
Make it 80 days.
Perhaps some of them will see a reduction in the size of their temples
JAJAJA... oops... pardon me please.. I meant to say HAHAHA. More Evidence of the Absolute, Complete and Total NONSENSE of Idolatry/atheism/cultism/paganism. Although God allows man to be an Idolater if he/she wishes to, it is proof/evidence of the downfall of mankind. Because while animals have customs, rituals and routines they don't have religion. However Idolatry IS NOT religion but a SIN.
"Because while animals have customs, rituals and routines they don't have religion. "
lol. They also don't give SPAM to one another.
Or fruit cakes.
Pro 14:1 The wise woman builds her house, but the foolish tears it down with her own hands.
You know, Sal, when you were shopping for cheap proverbs at the Evangelical Fortune Cookie Company, you should have checked first to see that you were getting a variety instead of this same old one. A parrot has more variety than the sum of your output here.
Great Doris, can I use "Evangelical Fortune Cookie Company? Awesome.
we need to give you to the animals, 'cos you're bananas!
It's always funny hearing atheists continue to whine that there is no evidence of God or how in order to believe, they MUST get it or else. Yet they flame believers, attack God, and overall have a very immature/hateful view. They want evidence of a god they think is false, is a delusion of the mind, and an invention of man. Atheists are too childish to see they are part of their own problem.
Finisher...most of the immaturity comes from the posters claiming to be believers, with you right at the top of the list with salero, Kermit, and many others. Nobody pays any attention to your babbling BS at all.
Funny, you commented which means you actually care. Awwww!!! Your atheism must be very weak.
Finisher....thanks for proving my point
Thanks for proving that you are a liar
Finisher....I'm sorry....I forgot that I was dealing with a mentally challenged person. I guess I should have known better. That is totally my fault for ever even addressing your sheer idiocy. I apologize....it will not happen again. And...I'll be sure to that I remind all the intelligent people on this blog to stay far away from your ramblings.
Why I am an atheist:
The Apostles'/Agnostics’/Atheists' Creed 2014: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
(references used are available upon request)
Fools, you argue against the things of God yet cannot see that the word GOD alone carries something greater than the vocable. itself. The last word of the jihadist was Allah Akbar. As Walter Kaiser said "had they only known God the Father of Jesus all else would have gained proper perspective.
Why is it so difficult to understand our need for something greater than ourselves? Why is it so difficult to understand we could not possibly be all there is to existence? Why is it we look to God for the unknowable? Neanderthal knew it as did 98% of mankind since creation.
The 2% who claim there is no God probably spend more time in the Bible than believers A very short experience in the physical is before you yet you justify swimming against the current because science has discovered water is hydrogen and oxygen bonded by forces you cannot see. As you justify your struggle in baryonic matter that comprises all that we know scientifically did you see the lilies in the field. Drift to the shore and observe how everything is in its place and clothed for life. The wonder of God is all around you and as Spinoza attempted to drape the cloth of metaphysics on God the world put a purple robe on Christ and a crown of thorns on his head as he cried out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"
When he gave up his spirit he cried out it is finished. And, so it is, you no longer need to swim up stream as God is with you. For God so loved ...............
Fred....wow! You are off the deep end with that last rant. Good luck with the rest of your life. I don't need any god in order for my life to have meaning. Is that too hard for the likes of you to understand?
The "likes of me" have been there done that.
The nature of the mind is to justify its position at all times. My mind now justifies purpose as being greater than my own desires.
If my object of worship was limited to the physical I understand all to well that the physical will soon pass away. The promised land of Abraham was something he never did see or a land he never did enter in the physical.
Hopefully you spend 77 minutes with God for every minute you spend on this website. The godless will continue to pound nails into Christ and seek to undermine all that is of God.
Fred....I couldn't be happier to be counted among the godless. Once again....I do not need god. There is absolutely no proof or evidence that anybody is anything other than worm food once they die. This is our only life, and there is no way I am going to waste it wallowing in fear of going to hell or bowing at the feet of some invisible deity. That would be absolutely insane, and I am not crazy.
my brother, thank you for your sage and welcomed advice.
in the midst of all this opposition, I still try to bear witness/preach/teach the kingdom of God with the hope that a believer or a non-believer will have that aha or revelatory moment and truly realize the kingdom of heaven is in deed at hand, and one can actually live the kingdom life even while in this world.
I know even some believers are offended by some of the things I write, but to them I'll simply say this: the Word of God is the most powerful thing that exists- both the written word and the Living word; and it's time to start believing God and to take hold of the ident.ity that He has given you and live and use that ident.ity
Lance Wallnau calls it the "believers edge" which unfortunately only 8% of the body of Christ ever gets into- that rare realm that individuals mature to the place where they have the power to co-create with God and bring the future into the present.
Believers need to stop looking around and speaking like the heathen, "God doesn't answer prayer" or "God doesn't do this particular thing anymore"... no, it doesn't get done because the believer refuse to open their mouths and use the Word(s) that God gave them.
other times, I share Paul's sentiment: [re: the mockery, disdain, and absolute hate coming from the ungodly on this board]
By the time Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was completely engrossed with preaching, earnestly arguing and testifying to the Jews that Jesus [is] the Christ. But since they kept opposing and abusing and reviling him, he shook out his clothing [against them] and said to them, Your blood be upon your [own] heads! I am innocent [of it]. From now on I will go to the Gentiles (the heathen).
Newman....you are even more delusional than most. I am not going to waste one second if my life pondering your near at hand kingdom....I have way too much reality to deal with.
There could be a god...but the chance it is your god is zilch.
In the time I have posted on this blog I have heard some of the funniest justifications for why the Christian religion MUST all be true:
– so many people have died for this religion over the years, so it must all be true.
– it says it's true in the bible so it must all be true
– I have a personal relationship with jesus so it must all be true
– millions of people in the world believe it so it must all be true.
– the human eye could not have just appeared so it must all be true.
– the prophesies all came true so it must all be true.
– jesus died for our sins and was resurrected so it must all be true.
Please add your favorites below ...
The universe exists, so it must have been created by "god" ( and of course, god is exactly as I imagine him/her/it to be.)
The bible is infallable, so your science proving it wrong , must be incorrect.
A couple of my favorite non-logic statements.
A scientist once claimed to find Dinosaur soft tissue, therefore all science that points to an old Earth is invalid and The Bible is literally true.
Since there were no high mountains in Isreael from which he could have seen all the Earth's landmasses, Jesus went to the moon. This is logical becuase He exists outside of time and space and that's how the Bible predicts a speherical Earth and it totally accurate in all things.
Just a few thousand years ago:
There were no ice caps on the planet.
There was no salt water.
Pangea existed and the continents broke apart, moved rapidly to their current positions and slowed down.
Oh, wherefore art thou Live4Him?!?
I hate it when people misuse "wherefore". It means "why", not "where".
The Bible is the only thing that describes the Creation of matter, energy and time – therefore it is true.
You have to believe in god to "see" or sense god.
Your spritual eyes are dead, so you can't see god.
You KNOW god exists, but you deny/hate/are against him
In the time I have posted on this blog I have heard some of the funniest justifications for why the Christian religion MUST all be false:
– so many followers are from the south, so it must be false.
– the bible must all be false
– christians aren't smart (see no. 1 above)
– more and more people are walking away from the faith, so it must be false
– there is no room for God in explaining the universe, so it must be false
– prophesies are coincidences, so it must be false
– jesus never existed, so it must be false
(See what I did there?)
there is no room for God in explaining the universe
Which version of God?
Why do you ask? Do you believe there is any god in any event? But, to answer your question, I believe it is the God of the Bible. (Tee up next atheist demand: Prove it.)
Actually I do. But, I don't think religion has anything to say about it, by way of describing details, and "knowledge". Religion is a human creation. Religion is the end result of mankind's constant search for answers to questions such as those addressed in this blog.
Working12.....yep, but we really only need one of those. There is no proof of god....period. I don't choose to believe in something that has no evidence for. That would be insane. See what I did there?
I do see what you did there...you continued with Dog's childish line of insulting people who have a different opinion than yours (i.e. "insane") with the same hardened heart that Dog so routinely adds to this blog.
working....let me ask you something. What would you say if I told you that the magician David Copperfield was the second son of god? Would you believe it, or would you demand proof? The man made the Statue of Liberty disappear, so he must be supernatural. Now....say somebody actually believed he was the son of god because he was able to do some really impressive parlor tricks. And, that somebody wrote it all down how he made an elephant move from one corner of the room to the other, sawed a woman in half and she was still alive minutes later! Now....would you think somebody that believed that he was truly the second son of god was insane, or perfectly within their right to believe it? I do not believe anything more than Jesus was a decent human and able to sway people to follow him, just like Jim Jones, David Koresh, and many other scam artists. There was nothing divine about him, and there was no proof at all that he was. So...sorry, I have to stick with my insane comment. It just is. It is insane to believe in something...anything....without evidential proof.
I'll tell you what...if Copperfield (or anyone else) can publicly die at the hands of impartial (i.e. they don't care who their victim is) professional executioners and then come back to life–showing his injuries, allowing any doubter, named Thomas or otherwise, to place his or her hand in the wounds, then you've got something other than "parlor tricks." What your scenario fails to appreciate is the immediate, rapid growth of the church within the weeks and months following Christ's resurrection that has nothing to do with what people later wrote down. That type of immediate change (in the face of immediate rejection by the power structure–pharisees and Rome) reflects something more than simple discontent with the status quo.
Working....sorry..., not taking anybody's word for something like that, especially with the requirements necessary for club membership. And, are you saying that since there are billions of people that follow Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormonism, and all the hundreds of other religions, that their god are equally real? People back then were in desperate need of hope...I don't blame them. However, to continue along that same line is a bit silly. We know more know. And since only about a third of the planet believe in Christianity after 2000 years, I'd say it was a miserable failure.
" – there is no room for God in explaining the universe, so it must be false
– prophesies are coincidences, so it must be false"
No one says that – what they say are
" -there is no room for God in explaining the universe, so that is not evidence for your god
– prophesies are not proven to be more than coincidences, so that is not evidence for your god"
You know those statements are all strawman arguments right?
Here is an argument you missed:
If God does not exist, then life has no purpose. Life has a purpose, therefore God exists.
Proof of the first premise:
A purpose requires a goal. That is, you must be working for something in order to have a purpose. This universe is constructed so that it will eventually fade into nothingness as matter itself breaks apart due to the half-life of protons being reached. If the end result of all of existence is the same regardless of what actions take place throughout the lifespan of the universe, then there is no purpose in anything we do. Therefore, unless there is an existence outside of this universe, i.e., God and a soul, then there is no purpose to our existence.
Proof of the Second Premise:
Life has a Purpose. If you don't think it does, then you are either a sociopath, apathetic to any pain or pleasure you create in the world, or you are not consistent in your beliefs and live your life deceiving yourself into believing that life is worth living even though it does not have a purpose.
You can add that to your list if you like.
!G -> !P
P != G
You logic is flawed. Your premise makes no claim about P being true. Perhaps P is true for another reason other than G.
Additionally, you claims about life have purpose is fallacious, i.e. argument from incredulity or common sense.
My logic is not flawed. I am using a form of Modus Tollens. You just don't agree with my first premise so of course you wont agree with my conclusion.
Here is my argument in a more intuitive form: The only way life has a purpose is if God exists. Life ha a purpose, therefore God exists.
Here's another argument, in the same form, that I think you will agree with:
If you don't own a feline, then you don't own a cat.
You own a cat, therefore you own a feline.
totes flawless logic!
Dans....your logic is flawed....what if life has no purpose and is just random (which is of course, what I believe). Then, there would be no god....which there undoubtedly is not. Just because you want or need there to be a purpose does not mean that there is one. I don't really need a purpose to live my life. This is the only one I have and I plan on taking advantage of that and not wasting my time genuflecting to some invisible worthless deity that can't even make himself known or help the disadvantaged. What a waste of a deity you chose....
"You just don't agree with my first premise..."
I thought that was what I said. The premise !G -> !P is not logically valid. It's like saying 'If I don't own a feline then life has no meaning'. You are free to assert such a thing, but it is not logically valid, i.e. it does not follow.
p.s. I don’t necessarily agree with you second premise either.
Oh Guidedans ... I am so sorry but that is nonsense. It must have taken you so long to type it all out to. Very sorry you wasted your time with that one but keep trying.
Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [a]utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.
Let me warn you therefore, beloved, that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked [persons and] fall from your own [present] firm condition [your own steadfastness of mind]
Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the Power of God... which are able to make you WISE unto salvation.
You err, in thinking there are any gods, or that your man made bible speaks for any gods.
You err, in claiming you know. You believe...big difference.
which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue
Hilarious irony alert.
@ new-man: why do you think your god spent so much time and effort and goodness to create from nothing a perfect universe and a perfect existence with all of its intricacy ... and then tricked Eve into eating an apple so that he could then undo his master work that he put so much time and effort into and turn it into the barely holding together chaos that we see today that he has to constantly micromanage? Why would he do that to his master work?
clearly even you don't believe the utter garbage you just wrote!
1. God didn't create something from nothing!
2. God created because God is Love. Creation is an expression of God's Love.
3. Adam and Eve forsook sound teaching and instead chose to eat of the fruit (doctrine) of unbelief. A doctrine that questioned the wisdom of their creator. A doctrine of demons that you have been gluttonously feasting on.
Friend, you're naked and exposed... there's still time to cover up.
The Eden myth has a simple moral:
Once you attain self-awareness, you must also accept self-responsibility – and that is a tough pill to swallow.
Obedience means abdication of personal responsibility – whether good or bad, the onus for what happens to you is on the head of the one you're obeying.
Once you choose to act as a free thinking agent, you can no longer bask at the comforting fire of blissful ignorance – you must accept the consequences for the choices you make.
You are out doing your self, just when I thought your last post was crazy, you post one that is even fvcken crazier.
@newman: You say
1. God didn't create something from nothing!
OK, I am sorry, I thought that's what your bronze age story book says. Are you saying that god didn't create it or are you saying that there was something already here that god used to create another thing? WOW, I'm confused.
" 2. God created because God is Love. Creation is an expression of God's Love."
sorry but that's just nonsense. I know that Christians usually like to divert to intangibles whenever their facts are proved wrong but your statement just doesn't mean anything.
" 3. Adam and Eve forsook sound teaching and instead chose to eat of the fruit (doctrine) of unbelief. A doctrine that questioned the wisdom of their creator. A doctrine of demons that you have been gluttonously feasting on."
so god destroyed all his amazing work because adam and eve fell for his set up? Seems a bit like cutting off his nose to spite his face ...
"Friend, you're naked and exposed... there's still time to cover up."
not sure what you're getting at here.
so in your view, human logic trumps the express command of God? As Samuel would later say to Saul who saw it fit to disobey the command of God – "to obey is better than sacrifice"
To listen to the voice of her father is perhaps the safest thing a child can do. To listen to the arguments of a stranger is perhaps the most dangerous – this is what happened to Eve.
In conclusion DV, since you've attained self-awareness, and have accepted self-responsibility and have accepted the consequences for the choices you've made... the question then becomes CAN YOU DV PAY THE CONSEQUENCES? and if yes, HOW?
human logic trumps the express command of God?
It's only by completely supressing simple logic, that you believe you KNOW the command of God. How would you think you know for certain, that the system you follow are the commands of God? Since your system isn't available to all humans, you'd have to leave open the possibility that some other system is the "true commands of God", you just have no access to it. How do you KNOW FOR CERTAIN the system you follow is the authentic one?
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