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How Scalia's prophecy became a moral crisis
Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia predicted that anti-gay marriage laws would fall.
June 27th, 2014
08:20 AM ET

How Scalia's prophecy became a moral crisis

By R. Albert Mohler Jr.special to CNN

(CNN) – One year after the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision on the Defense of Marriage Act, this much is clear: Justice Antonin Scalia is a prophet.

Back in 2003, when the court handed down the decision in Lawrence v. Texas, striking down all criminal statutes against homosexual acts, Scalia declared that the stage was set for the legalization of same-sex unions. That was 2003.

“Today’s opinion dismantles the structure of constitutional law that has permitted a distinction to be made between heterosexual and homosexual unions, insofar as a formal recognition in marriage is concerned,” wrote Scalia.

He was proved to be absolutely prophetic when, just ten years later, the court ruled in United States v. Windsor that the Defense of Marriage Act was unconstitutional — thus striking down the federal statute defining marriage exclusively as the union of a man and a woman.

Once again, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote the majority opinion, while Scalia handed down a fiery dissent. As before, Scalia was prophetic.

Even though the Court did not rule that same-sex marriage must be legal in all states, it set the stage for that to happen. As Scalia wrote: “As far as this Court is concerned, no one should be fooled; it is just a matter of listening and waiting for the other shoe.”

One year later, it is abundantly evident that we did not have to wait or listen for long.
Almost immediately, challenges to state laws and constitutional amendments prohibiting same-sex marriages erupted.

In a staggering series of decisions at the federal and state levels, judges explicitly cited the nullification of DOMA and the central arguments of the Windsor decision in striking down those laws and constitutional amendments.

A year after the death of DOMA, not one major decision has defended any of these statutes or amendments. Kennedy’s opinion has been cited as authoritative in virtually every one of these judicial actions.

This has meant that in a single year, the legalization of same sex marriage has become a reality or received a positive judicial action in states including Utah, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Virginia, Texas, Pennsylvania, Oregon and a host of other states far from where such unions had previously been recognized.

A year later, it is clear that the Supreme Court remains the central political institution of moral transformation in America.

A year later, it is also clear that the court was riding a vast change in public opinion.

We must also see that the time is almost at hand for that transformation to be made complete, at least in terms of the legalization of same-sex marriage in all 50 states.

What was not clear a year ago was the velocity of this transformation. Even the architects of the revolution are expressing surprise at the speed of these judicial actions.

By the end of this summer, the Supreme Court will likely need to revisit the question once again, this time responding to the cavalcade of lower court decisions the high court spawned.

There is very good reason to expect a decision mandating same-sex marriage coast-to-coast in the Court’s next term, with a decision to be handed down just a year from now, almost to the day.

Furthermore, the Obama administration has been pushing the agenda vigorously, with the federal government now aligning all agency policies in line with the Windsor decision - even extending to areas the decision was never intended to reach.

Where does that leave committed Christians?

Those of us who believe that human flourishing depends upon the recognition and honoring of marriage as exclusively the union of a man and a woman see this transformation of marriage into something radically different as a grave threat to human society and human happiness.

We do not argue that these damaging effects on society and its individuals will be immediately apparent, but we are sadly confident that the subversion of marriage will bring devastating effects over time.

In retrospect, we can also see that previous subversions of marriage set the stage for the radical redefinition of marriage in our times.

Our failure to answer the challenge of rising divorce rates was, eventually, fatal to our effort to defend marriage against its redefinition in terms of gender. Some of us saw this danger at the time, but there was no adequate effort to oppose the devastating impact of divorce.

The larger sexual revolution also plays an incalculable role in this transformation. The moral separation of sex and marriage among millions of Americans removed any hope of establishing a lasting consensus on the central importance of marriage and its essence as a monogamous man-woman union.

A year after the death of DOMA, it is also clear that very real threats to religious liberty now loom before us. This is perhaps the inevitable consequence of a moral revolution of this scale.

Will the government now coerce the consciences of churches, religious institutions, schools, colleges, social service agencies, and the like? There is now strong evidence that government at every level will attempt such coercion. Will America abandon religious liberty for the sake of erotic freedom?

Those of us who believe same-sex marriage to be a moral impossibility now face a very daunting challenge — how to live in a society that is moving so rapidly against our moral worldview, even as the society shared that worldview for over 2,000 years.

We face the challenge of finding how to relate to our neighbors and contribute to the common good when we see that very society undermining human flourishing in the name of sexual liberty.

A year after the death of DOMA the listening and the waiting are almost over. The revolution is almost complete. The shoe is dropping fast.

One thing is clear to all – no one was exaggerating when the Windsor decision was declared by both sides to be revolutionary.

We can all agree on that much, just one year after the revolution was declared.

R. Albert Mohler Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. The views expressed in this column belong to Mohler. 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Church and state • Culture wars • evangelicals • Gay marriage • Gay rights • Opinion • Religious liberty • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (653 Responses)
  1. aallen333

    A family owned a dog that they loved and cared about very much. They took him on vacations with them, let him eat at the table with them and even let him sleep in bed with them. The dog did have one dangerous habit however. For some reason it was attracted to electrical cords and loved to chew on them. The family tried everything they could to warn the dog not to chew on the cords. They tried to reason with the dog, but their words just went in one ear and out the other. They tried taking steps to put the cords out of reach, but the dog was driven to develop ways around these steps and always succeeded in making his way back to the cords. Finally, the family, exasperated at their inability to successfully convey to the dog the danger he was putting himself in, decided the only way the dog would learn was to leave him to his own devices and allow him to experience for himself the consequences of his actions.

    July 19, 2014 at 10:38 pm |
    • dandintac

      And your point is?

      In your analogy, I assume the dog represnts the Christian fundies?

      July 20, 2014 at 12:57 am |
  2. idiotusmaximus

    Can we throw away the key..... I would like that.

    July 3, 2014 at 8:17 pm |
  3. midwest rail

    725 comments. This is excellent. In the recent past as story like this would have generated thousands of comments, most proclaiming the sky was falling.

    July 2, 2014 at 8:37 am |
  4. observer

    It's probably just a coincidence:

    SALERO is an anagram of "A LOSER".

    June 30, 2014 at 11:00 pm |
    • Salero21

      Do you really expect anyone here to believe you're a "winner"? Especially when not even your mom believes it.

      July 1, 2014 at 1:12 pm |
      • Reality

        And once again we ask what is Salero's crazy version of Christianity? Or is he a Buddhist? Or a Sikh?

        July 1, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
  5. Salero21

    So then... King Obomo of the new kingdom of THE UNITED STATES OF SODOM AND GOMORRAH lost another one with the Court!! Well, well what did you know!!

    Now, where are all the HO.MOS's of both genders who rabidly voted for him in 08 & 12? Gee they're NOT even joining the Military after the repeal of DADT. Well I don't blame them for not joining; Who in the right mind wants to join a gay Military?

    June 30, 2014 at 10:55 pm |
  6. joey3467

    I don't see how being gay or not being gay has anything whatsoever to do with morals, much less a so called moral crisis.

    June 30, 2014 at 2:58 pm |
    • Russ

      @ joey: unless you claim simply to be a-moral, that's an untenable position.

      EITHER:
      1) you believe g.ays should have equal access to marriage (making the traditional position immoral)
      OR
      2) you believe ho.mo.se.xuality is immoral

      but there is no room for saying there's nothing moral here... unless you think all of morality is a farce.

      June 30, 2014 at 8:23 pm |
      • observer

        Russ,

        What difference does it make to you since there's likely NO CHANCE that you support all of God's IMMORAL views on marriage?

        June 30, 2014 at 8:29 pm |
        • Russ

          @ Observer:
          1) do you simply look for ways to disagree with me? i purposefully worded this so that *both sides* could agree: this IS a moral issue, no matter which side you take.

          2) we've had the OT conversation ad nauseam. yet AGAIN, here's a brief overview whose content you'll refuse to engage:
          http://www.redeemer.com/redeemer-report/article/old_testament_law_and_the_charge_of_inconsistency

          June 30, 2014 at 8:36 pm |
        • observer

          Russ,

          I have read your reference a couple of times. In essence, it says to forget all the IMMORAL commands from God in the Old Testament and go with the New Testament.

          Was it the SAME GOD in both?

          "Traditional marriage" has CHANGED MANY TIMES. Fifty years ago it COULD NOT involve people of different races in many places. God's "traditional marriage" could involve FORCING marriage on people.

          Get real.

          June 30, 2014 at 8:53 pm |
        • Russ

          @ observer: yet again you prove my point.

          1) if you'd actually READ the article, you wouldn't be misrepresenting it.

          note: there are 3 types of OT laws:
          a) ceremonial (ritual cleansing, sacrifices, etc. – required to be made clean/holy)
          b) judicial (laws specifically for the nation state of Israel)
          c) moral laws (the 10 commandments, etc.)

          the theme of the OT is that God's people fail over & over again to be faithful to God. Jesus comes & does what they can't. that DOES NOT mean the NT rejects or ignores the OT (a point I've made to you repeatedly).

          instead, ceremonial & judicial laws are abrogated because Christ FULFILLS them (i.e., Christ has made us clean as the ultimate sacrifice, so sacrifices wouldn't continue; in Christ, God will bring people from ALL nations to himself, not just Jews). while Christ keeps the moral law that God's people failed to keep before, the moral laws continue because God's people are called to live in Christ-like holiness (because the moral law reveals God's character). and now, with the Holy Spirit living in them, they are increasingly made like him (2 Cor.3:18).

          SUM: yes, it's the same God. as Jesus said, he came to fulfill the Law, not annul it (Mt.5:17-20).

          2) you can't have it both ways. EITHER what is happening is a radical change (something the g.ay lobby has found incredibly worth pursuing) OR it shouldn't be called a change (which i've yet to hear someone argue), and thus really shouldn't be seen as a movement – much less something worth celebrating.

          June 30, 2014 at 9:06 pm |
        • observer

          Russ

          When people of different races "had equal access to marriage", did that "make the traditional position immoral"?

          So "traditional marriage may only be 50 years old, right?

          Your options were FALSE since one required that such a change made "the traditional position immoral". That's just your prejudiced OPINION. Marriage has changed MANY times.

          June 30, 2014 at 9:14 pm |
        • Russ

          @ observer:
          Moses married a Cush.ite (Ethiopian) woman. It's clearly interracial & God defends him against those claiming what he did was wrong. The OT prohibitions (that reference other nations/races) are against inter-faith marriages.

          and that's over 3000 years ago. so that's a LOT more than 50 years...

          July 2, 2014 at 4:42 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          good one russ....these people fail to see why God prohibited certain marriage..he made it clear it was faith..nothing to do with race..in fact..the canaanites wer not really one race anyways...they wer enot all the same people....its similar to saying Americans.... in Canaan there were amalikites, hivites, jebusites etc etc

          July 2, 2014 at 4:46 pm |
        • observer

          Russ,

          Did God set the "TRADITION" from the beginning?

          July 2, 2014 at 4:48 pm |
        • Russ

          @ Observer: yes.
          1) tradition = (literally) what was handed down

          2) in anticipation of your follow up remarks:
          a) the created order was one male & one female – all other forms are POST-fall and as such show the corruption of the original design
          b) note well the consistent subversive way in which Genesis deals with polygamy (everyone who practices it suffers)

          July 2, 2014 at 4:55 pm |
        • observer

          Russ,

          So God started the TRADITION of marriage with apparently his VIEW of marriage –

          A MURDERER married his own sister or mother with God's blessing.

          Great tradition.

          July 2, 2014 at 5:00 pm |
        • Russ

          @ observer:
          again, as i stated above in #1... murder did not happen until AFTER the Fall

          July 2, 2014 at 5:03 pm |
        • observer

          Russ,

          Irrelevant.

          God gave his blessing and married a MURDERER and his own sister or mother.

          The "tradition" begins.

          July 2, 2014 at 5:07 pm |
        • Russ

          @ observer: many of the atheists on this blog carry on quality debates and/or discussion. unlike you, the facts are *relevant* for them – especially in accurately engaging the argument of those with whom they disagree. as a result, i can disagree passionately with them but still have a discussion that goes somewhere.

          with you, however, every single discussion we've had over the past few months devolves into some form of you ignoring anything I say & insisting on whatever your chosen point for the day is – no matter how many different ways I address your particular concern. and that's been on all manner of a variety of topics. here, yet again, you simply ignore the points I've made in favor of simply saying "nuh-uh" even louder.

          i am all for vigorous debates that actually go somewhere. but, as i said to you once before, to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result is the definition of insanity. it's time for me to take my own advice.

          July 2, 2014 at 6:02 pm |
  7. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    Dear Dr. Mohler,

    get over it. The 14th amendment has proven itself over your narrow-mindedness.

    If you want to address something that really is destroying the family as you like to define it, please go focus on adultery by heteros.exual Christians. Jesus at least spoke very clearly about that.

    June 30, 2014 at 11:39 am |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      Well, you see, that's just it, non-GOPer; you're citing the actual teachings of Jesus, and Gud Crischinz(tm) have no truck with that. They much prefer their messiah Saul of Tarsus because he puts Teh Gayz(tm) and Teh Wimmin(tm) in what they consider to be their places...

      June 30, 2014 at 4:09 pm |
  8. jasoncdanforth

    Why is this on the religion blog? This isn't religion. At least, it shouldn't be. This is simply a testament to the outsized influence that religion wields in our society. It has to stop.

    June 30, 2014 at 10:13 am |
  9. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    I don't suppose Christians would be satisfied if we chose a different term for the insti tuition they have for subordinating a woman to a man under their God. What they do is peculiar. Marriage should be something most of us can believe in.

    June 30, 2014 at 3:04 am |
  10. alonsoquixote

    The author of the article writes "In retrospect, we can also see that previous subversions of marriage set the stage for the radical redefinition of marriage in our times." I can remember a time just a few decades ago when the cry from the Religious Right against the subversion of marriage was against the country allowing interracial marriage. E.g., from Why Marriage: The History Shaping Today's Debate Over Gay Equality by George Chauncey (c) 2004:

    Jerry Falwell, for one, preached that segregation was part of God's plan. Falwell declared in 1958 that "If the Supreme Court had known God's word, I am quite confident that the 1954 school desegregation decision would never have been made." He went on to dismiss the advocates of desegregation as the agents of Moscow and "the devil." And just as Falwell and the rest of the Religious Right have recently tried to make gay marriage rights the specter haunting every debate about gay rights, so he and other conservative white clergy fifty years ago held up interracial marriage as the logical, inevitable, and most horrifying result of any move toward desegregation. In that 1958 sermon, Rev. Falwell warned that integration would ultimately "destroy our race. If we mix the races in schools, in churches, the ultimate end will be the social mixing which can only lead to marital relationships."

    Almost forty years later, the by-then prominent founder of the Moral Majority and crusader against gay rights inadvertently confirmed the ubiquity of such segregationist thought in Southern white churches when he was asked to comment on his now discarded and discredited opinion. At the time of the sermon, he explained, he was simply a young, inexperienced pastor following "the party line and the denominational line." It was only later, he said that he was prepared to "buck the tide ... [and] go against public opinion" on the race issue. Although Rev. Falwell was understandably trying to rehabilitate his moral credibility, his explanation confirmed that the tide of public opinion in the Southern white churches ran against desegregation and interracial marriage. The gay movement is not the first civil rights movement to face determined religious opposition.

    June 29, 2014 at 6:40 pm |
    • austin929

      What are you? are you an American?

      June 29, 2014 at 6:53 pm |
      • austin929

        What were the pilgrims?

        June 29, 2014 at 6:53 pm |
      • realbuckyball

        Who cares ? *As if* only Americans can comment on the hypocrisy of American values/customs.
        The fact is the Declaration of Independence says "All men are created equal". Not just straight white males.

        June 29, 2014 at 8:23 pm |
    • Doris

      Thank you, alonso. It's important that we not forget the evil wrought in the U.S. by bigots like Fallwell and the people he represented and still represents today.

      June 29, 2014 at 7:29 pm |
  11. Doris

    "...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!"

    –Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

    June 29, 2014 at 4:25 pm |
  12. Science Works

    Hey Austin- the rib tickler eh ? Comedy Gold .

    oh well .

    Pope Francis jokes ‘woman was from a rib’ as he avoids question about Catholic Church’s misogyny

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/29/pope-francis-jokes-woman-was-from-a-rib-as-he-avoids-question-about-catholic-churchs-misogyny

    June 29, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
    • austin929

      Science Works..........hey dude. lol.

      have you seen the new ride at Schlitterbanz? are you going to go on it? stay in the raft!

      June 29, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
      • Science Works

        Hey Austin

        Scince the rib made a woman is a joke – that makes god(s) a joke eh ?

        June 30, 2014 at 10:35 am |
        • Science Works

          Oops all thumbs Austin

          Since

          June 30, 2014 at 10:44 am |
  13. Salero21

    JAJAJA...oops... pardon me please... I meant to say HAHAHA. Justice Scalia a prophet! Is this guy trying to kill me of laughter or what?

    June 29, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
  14. Doris

    "If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies– that is, longer than two thousand years."

    –Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)

    June 29, 2014 at 12:32 pm |
    • austin929

      As wrong as Luther was, producing a hatred for Christ rejecting Jews is no different than producing a hatred for people who engage in a habitual sin.

      Christians can not exalt themselves upon the non believing world.

      The world is not controlled by Christian justice until Christ arrives. Live and let live.

      June 29, 2014 at 1:31 pm |
      • austin929

        Prayer changes things.

        June 29, 2014 at 1:31 pm |
        • igaftr

          That has been shown, many times, to not be the case.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Sure it does....just ask the two dead Schiable children how much prayer changes things. Prayer is merely a feel good measure invented to make you think you're doing good when in fact you're doing nothing.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
        • austin929

          many things are out of your own hands. Prayer changes your own self and will, and God does do special things, supernatural things, spiritual answers, and physical miracles.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:37 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Austin: How about being honest and instead of making claims that you can't support, given that supernatural CAN'T be known, you include the disclaimer of "I believe..."? Otherwise you sound like a liar and rather delusional!

          June 29, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
        • igaftr

          austin
          I'm sure you have convinced yourself that is true, but studies have shown praying is basically the same as doing nothing at all.

          June 29, 2014 at 4:36 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Confirmation Bias changes things.

          June 29, 2014 at 5:20 pm |
      • Doris

        austin: "As wrong as Luther was, producing a hatred for Christ rejecting Jews is no different than producing a hatred for people who engage in a habitual sin."

        Okee dokee, well you're certainly enti.tled to your view, austin, even if I find it glowing with self-righteousness.

        austin: "The world is not controlled by Christian justice until Christ arrives. Live and let live."

        I hope with, "live and let live", you are addressing your fellow Christians; because I'm not part of your schedule with your alleged Abrahamic "maker". Therefore, not for my sake, but for the sake of my children and grandchildren, and others, figure there's a good chance you'll hear from me when the sanctimonious BS meter goes off – which is pretty much whenever you post anything to the BB.

        June 29, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • austin929

          Doris, the pseudo Christ killers have been, and will be temple dwellers.

          Evil is invisible. but the light of God shines in the heart, in the face of Jesus Christ. This is perceivable to all who seek Him who knocks.

          I hear ya.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          "This is perceivable to all who seek Him who knocks"
          - Unfortunately for you, Jebus said "No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him", and "For many are called, but few are chosen". Nothing about knockers there.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
        • austin929

          Hisgalus 3:20

          Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

          20 Hinei, I have stood at the delet (door) DOFEK (“knocking,” SHIR HASHIRIM 5:2); if anyone hears my kol and opens the delet, indeed I will come in to him and we, the two of us, will dine together at the BEIT HAYAYIN [“Banquet Hall,” SHIR HASHIRIM 2:4].
          Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

          June 29, 2014 at 7:20 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          LOLOL....I love the way you people argue over this fictional crap as it it were a real reality.....like arguing over the color of Santa's suit and how many reindeer he had and oh yeah...how did they fly...with tiny tiny wings that were invisible?....LOLOLOLOLLO INSANITY.

          June 30, 2014 at 10:04 am |
      • realbuckyball

        How does one "exalt oneself upon" something ?
        Do people that cook up this pious drivel get it from somewhere, or just pull it out of their, um, buttocks ?

        June 29, 2014 at 2:39 pm |
  15. Jill

    Disgusting bigot Rainer Braendlein, festoon your quagmire. Within the indigenous parapets can be found novels and other grapes of paint. There is no caveat to the Klein bottle, and there will be no gold watch for the unspoken zero. Gobble the fertile gravel.

    Focus your nose on the test tube. Stay succulently upon your velodrome and fear not the coming of the essential kangaroo. Strawberries are your incidental chemistry. Present the fulcrum in advance of the gypsum cookie, for as the tree is combed, so goes the predicate. Expand quietly but do not relish.

    Whether or not you agree with the plumber, harvest away ye hearties. Kalabash in Friebourg but not in spanners while it's raining. Bring out the mustard but flap flap flap until takeoff. Why would you say such a thing in the presence of the substrate? 64. 1112. Welcome to the new sandwich lumberyard. Bus stops follow movement, or do they?

    The impediment to your posterior is large but can be dissected with chestnuts. Obermeyer. Glasnost and shallot cookies will do the main job when a steamshovel is too distant for pomegranate.

    Don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent.Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Serpentine. Indigo chestnuts. Give voice to your negligible garage. Walk with found yellow in the fold. Perish your underwear in the crescent.

    And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

    June 29, 2014 at 10:31 am |
    • idiotusmaximus

      LOVE THIS......it's so poetic....love your wordage..

      June 29, 2014 at 10:45 am |
      • austin929

        where is lionly lamb?

        June 29, 2014 at 11:46 am |
        • Athy

          Nah, he left well before that, I think. Just suddenly stopped posting his pro-pot posts and videos. I think he's probably back in the asylum for rehab.

          June 29, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
  16. observer

    Rainer Helmut Braendlein,

    You say that you are a fan of a famous ADULTERER. You even feature him on your website.

    So do you believe that laws should have been changed to force him "to the edge of society?.

    June 28, 2014 at 4:05 pm |
    • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

      You know that Franklin experienced a change.

      As you forge historical facts, you are a liar.

      June 28, 2014 at 4:10 pm |
      • observer

        Rainer Helmut Braendlein,

        YOU ARE A LIAR. Understand? YOU ARE A LIAR.

        Ben Franklin had an ILLEGIMATE SON named William which he PUBLICLY acknowledged. William was born on February 22, 1762. Franklin never said who the mother was.

        Do some RESEARCH for a change so you won't continue to make a COMPLETE FOOL OF YOURSELF. Your IGNORANCE and LYING is amazing. God must be SO PROUD of you.

        June 28, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
      • realbuckyball

        From Rainer's blog
        "On this blog I want to discuss different subjects, which are understood wrong by many people"
        Of course Rainy like all true religious zealots, just KNOWS HE has the truth. He doesn't want to "discuss" anything. He wants to impose and preach. He's hilarious.

        June 28, 2014 at 4:45 pm |
      • Reality

        Well it is the weekend and RB is back spouting his normal, over-the-hill, orthodox Lutheranism.

        June 28, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
        • austin929

          people have spiritual experiences and they get fired up . This is good. However we are all limited and ultimately our own will needs to decrease as we are in a spiritual battle.

          Stop Striving

          It’s not striving, it’s abiding that makes the difference. Many Christians are striving
          to do the will of God, and many fall, but Jesus explains to us in John 15:4-10
          “abide in Me, and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide
          in the vine, no more can you, except you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the
          branches, he that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for
          without Me, you can do nothing. If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a
          branch, and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and
          they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you shall ask
          what you will, and it shall be done to you. Herein is My Father glorified, that you
          bear much fruit; so shall you be My disciples. As the Father has loved Me, so
          have I loved you; continue you in My love. If you keep My commandments, you
          shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide
          in His love”.

          When you are striving, you are trying to do things in your own flesh, and that
          cannot be, but when you recognize that in the flesh you can do nothing, then
          surrender to God and let Him show you the real you.

          g spot, or wrinkle, or any such
          thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish”. Also in T.itus 3:5-7, it says
          “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy
          He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
          Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior. That being
          justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal
          life”. And in Hebrews 10:22 it says “let us draw near with a true heart in full
          as.surance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our
          bodies washed with pure water”.

          http://www.thy-way.org/Bibles_Studies/Stop_Striving.html

          June 29, 2014 at 1:26 pm |
        • igaftr

          "people have spiritual experiences and they get fired up"

          People have what they imagine are, or believe to be spiritual experiences...

          Nothing spiritual, nor supernatural in any way has ever been shown to exist.
          People want to believe, so they do...that is an extablished psychological phenomena.

          June 29, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
        • austin929

          igaftr

          what about the civil rights movements when black people would get tried, on false accusations, and lynched?

          is this not a demonic attack and a full manifestation of invisible Satanic depravity, not to mention the crucifixion of the Lord?

          June 29, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
        • igaftr

          austin
          "is this not a demonic attack and a full manifestation of invisible Satanic depravity"

          No, it is not.

          Since no one can show those things exist. Do I not see tigers around me everyday because I carry my anti-tiger penny? Of course not because there is no coorelation, let alone a causation.

          Trying to show a cause and effect relationship to something that no one can show exists is not logically sound, and , like the Salem Witch hunts can be deadly. The ones killing witches thought they were doing thier gods work, but ended up simply being murderers.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • austin929

          you can live forever, guaranteed.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • igaftr

          austin
          To claim it is guarenteed is a flat out lie. There are no guarentees. You cannot even show there is any such thing as an " afterlife" , and since you MUST die to get there, it really isn't life, now is it.

          Tone down your rhetoric, or continue to lie. Your choice.

          By the way, I am planning on living forever...so far , so good.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          "you can live forever, guaranteed."
          -- said the snake-oil salesman.

          June 29, 2014 at 2:59 pm |
        • fintronics

          137:9 "Blessed is the one who grabs your babies and smashes them against a rock."

          June 30, 2014 at 1:06 pm |
        • fintronics

          "you can live forever, guaranteed."

          I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

          July 1, 2014 at 1:05 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      isn't it true that you are only here trying to destroy someone's faith? isn't it also true that you are a hateful person who hates God and hates His children and that's the only reason you are here?

      June 29, 2014 at 12:04 am |
      • observer

        awanderingscot,

        My main goal is to expose HYPOCRITES who use their religion to make the lives of others worse. Rainer is probably the biggest BIGOT on here and you may be the biggest HYPOCRITE. Neither of you seem to have the intelligence to realize how illogical and mean you are.

        As far as hating God, that is pure nonsense. I am an agnostic.

        June 29, 2014 at 12:16 am |
      • realbuckyball

        No. But what is apparently true, is that your faith is weak, and you can't stand free-thinkers, who have always been a threat to religions and their insanity. The scientific worldview has begun replacing the insanity of ancient religions, which are ALL based on human inventions, and ignorance. Religions have had their grip on humans for thousands of years. Science for about 300 years. It's made remarkable progress in that time, and is the future of humanity. Religions have divided and oppressed humanity. It's long past time to be free of the nonsense.

        BTW, why are YOU here ? You are not here to discuss and learn. YOU are here to preach and harangue and judge.

        June 29, 2014 at 1:22 am |
        • kermit4jc

          lol..I have YET to see ANY evidence of "free thinking" by atheists

          July 1, 2014 at 2:43 am |
        • fintronics

          Kermi's definition of "free thinking" = belief in imaginary gods based on fairytales.

          July 1, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        "isn't it true that you are only here trying to destroy someone's faith?" says the now wealthy tailor of the Emperors new clothes...

        June 29, 2014 at 10:33 am |
        • idiotusmaximus

          “isn’t it true that you are only here trying to destroy someone’s faith?” says the now wealthy tailor of the Emperors new clothes….......

          LOLOLOL....Many make lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on the religious....it's one of the easiest ways to make $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

          June 29, 2014 at 10:47 am |
      • Science Works

        Hey Scot
        Maybe the pope should perform an exorcism on Scalia (catholic) as he believes in a real devil – do you sco ?

        Ans the guy that believes the devil is real will make a firey decent on the Hoppy Loppy Case maybe ?

        June 29, 2014 at 11:32 am |
  17. Rainer Helmut Braendlein

    Word for Sunday:

    Gay America, dry America.

    "The Bible says" that God lets it rain on the good and on the evil people. If that would be the only verse of the Bible, we could assume that the rain would not depend on our behaviour. Doesn't the "Bible say" that God lets it rain also on the evil people?

    Of course, we have to consider the whole content of the Bible, and always we have to relate one single verse to the whole content. The solution is that there are different degrees of evil behaviour. God can tolerate the malice of a people up to a certain degree, and up to this degree he is ready to give the rain despite the misbehaviour of the people.

    According to the biblical evidence gayness is a severe sin. Maybe it is one of the worst sins somebody can commit. However, worse than gayness itself is the legalization of gay behaviour.

    The legalization of any gay behaviour is the actual problem. This is a thing God cannot tolerate, and this causes his infinite wrath. I am quite sure that the drought in California has something to do with the legalization of gay marriage there. This is the perversion of God's good orders. Why should a gay man or woman still repent, and return to God and his Church, when the secular society becomes a kind of pseudo-church where gays can be "happy" despite the absence of God's presence who is life and cure in himself (the great benefit of the true Church is the presence of God there who is life, cure and love in himself; the presence of God in the church causes real happiness)? If the secular tries to imitate the Church, she completely destroys Gods world order:

    The secular society shall be a place where sinners can exist (note that mere existence is no life in abundance) in an organised way despite their sinful behaviour which damages others, themselves and God's holiness. God has some patience with the sinners (who really commit harmful acts), and hopes that they may shift from the secular society where they merely exist, to the Church, where they could find life in fulness. If this difference between society and Church is obliterated, God's purpose, the conversion of the sinners, is totally counteracted. God will not tolerate that anybody counteracts the salvation of poor sinners whom God loves, and He has delivered his precious Son for.

    It must be always clear that the only place on earth where we can find peace, love, happiness, holiness, fellowship, etc. is the Christian Church. There is a place where we can escape, where we can find deliverance and forgiveness. If mankind abolishes this divine place, the mankind has no more right to exist or no more purpose.

    God will abolish this mankind.

    Let us regard droughts as a warning, and don't let us go too far. His wrath is awful.

    Replies by trolls are undesirable.

    June 28, 2014 at 3:51 pm |
    • thesamyaza

      no this drought is caused by your god for an entirely different reason; because your god taught humans nature belongs to them, they has abused it to the point of natures first man made drought .

      June 28, 2014 at 4:34 pm |
    • tallulah131

      Thank you for exposing your utter stupidity for all to see, Rainer. You are the best advertisement for atheism there is.

      June 28, 2014 at 4:35 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      "It must be always clear that the only place on earth where we can find peace, love, happiness, holiness, fellowship, etc. is the Christian Church. There is a place where we can escape, where we can find deliverance and forgiveness. If mankind abolishes this divine place, the mankind has no more right to exist or no more purpose."

      So you say, with not a shred of support. It appears Rainy is mentally ill, and the only place he has any friends in is his Fundie church. This NEED to appear to have the truth, and a moral high-ground has a name. It's a recognized mental illness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

      June 28, 2014 at 4:52 pm |
      • tallulah131

        Rainy is a piece of work alright. I can't imagine someone like him has a lot of friends, fundie or not.

        June 28, 2014 at 5:03 pm |
      • fortheloveofellipsis

        "It must be always clear that the only place on earth where we can find peace, love, happiness, holiness, fellowship, etc. is the Christian Church. There is a place where we can escape, where we can find deliverance and forgiveness. If mankind abolishes this divine place, the mankind has no more right to exist or no more purpose."

        What he means by that, bucky, is that unless everyone agrees with his religious beliefs, he and those who "think" like him perfectly prepared to use violence again those who disagree...

        June 28, 2014 at 5:11 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          ARE perfectly prepared to use violence. Geez...

          June 28, 2014 at 5:11 pm |
        • fintronics

          ""It must be always clear that the only place on earth where we can find peace, love, happiness, holiness, fellowship, etc. is the Christian Church."

          Rainy would make a great used car salesman.

          July 1, 2014 at 1:17 pm |
      • realbuckyball

        "Gay America, dry America."

        -- SO then. Jebus makes Africa dry, and millions of innocent babies die from drought. I never realized it was cuz those evil babies were um, being evil.

        June 28, 2014 at 6:07 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        isn't it true that you are only here trying to destroy someone's faith? isn't it also true that you are a hateful person who hates God and hates His children and that's the only reason you are here?

        June 29, 2014 at 12:09 am |
        • realbuckyball

          "Iisn't it true that you are only here trying to destroy someone's faith? isn't it also true that you are a hateful person who hates God and hates His children and that's the only reason you are here?"

          -- If that was addressed to me, the answer is no to everything. But thanks for admitting you perceive me as a threat. The only goal I have to shed light on ignorance. If that's a threat, so be it. One cannot hate something that does not exist, no no I have no feelings one way or another about any of the gods, especially the ancient Babylonian war deity, (Yahweh Sabaoth .. who the Hebrews adopted as their chief deity, as they wanted help with their battles.) As far as "his children" go, god is a girl, you idiot. She has no weeny. If horses had gods, their gods would be horses. I have many friends in religion. Many. None of them are Fundamentalists, fortunately. Fundies are a small ignorant childish branch of religions.

          June 29, 2014 at 1:03 am |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      We voted in SSM here in Maryland–oops. No droughts here.

      Oh yeah, I know your response–"But...but...it WILL! I'm tellin' ya, IT WILL!!!1!1! Maybe not today, but you just watch–one of these days...yeah, you just see! You'll be sorry! YOU'LL BE SORRY!!!!11!!!" Much like a ten-year-old on a playground who didn't get picked first...

      June 28, 2014 at 5:07 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      I thought Jebus paid the price for sin ? So you're saying your god now wants more ?

      June 28, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      "Replies by trolls are undesirable."

      So why do you keep posting if you don't like trolls?? Repeating yourself is nothing more than being a troll. I'm sure Germany has blogs that might be better suited to your special brand of crazy since you hate America so much and prove it with every bigoted, hateful post.

      June 29, 2014 at 11:50 am |
    • lngtrmthnkr

      Rainy, one thing you will probably never understand is unconditional love, As God loves all his children and he made them with their atributes they are given and what is important is not their orientation, but how we treat them. Do we give unconditional love? Or do we judge and persecute his children ? Differences in people are given to see how we will react and treat them. Whether black,red ,yellow brown,white or olive, can we see beyond the exterior to the inner person? Some can,some need to learn and to grow. If a person is self content that they have all the answers,they become a danger to others,as well as to themselves.

      June 29, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
    • fintronics

      " I am quite sure that the drought in California has something to do with the legalization of gay marriage there. "

      WOW.... just... WOW!!!........ .......... Is it ok now with everyone if I apply the "deluded" label to this one?? I mean, I certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone (LOL)

      July 1, 2014 at 1:21 pm |
    • mocasea

      "It must be always clear that the only place on earth where we can find peace, love, happiness, holiness, fellowship, etc. is the Christian Church. There is a place where we can escape, where we can find deliverance and forgiveness. If mankind abolishes this divine place, the mankind has no more right to exist or no more purpose."

      Too bad your "divine place" is more in line with hate, brutality, shameful indignation, self agrandization, exclusiveness, etc. Meanwhile, even though I shun your "divine place" I have found happiness, peace, love, fellowship... you know, those things that you seem to think are exclusive to your particular version of Christianity. Oddly enough, I'm not even Christian. When I go to Church, I don't go to some building that someone built, listen to someone speak at me about the evils of the world, give up money for some out of sight missionary work, and then get berated for not doing things according to some interpreted version of a much disputed holy book. When I go to Church I actually fellowship with my fellow church members, have a voice in all the discussions, actually see where any money I donate goes, actively help support and maintain the Church, and provide moral and emotional support to those who need it when they need it. Yes we have a Church leadership, but their focus as leaders is the Church itself. On top of that anyone with an open mind is welcome, can merely observe without being the target of comments or hate, are welcome in all discussions, and is not required in any fashion to convert, change or even participate beyond what they are comfortable with.

      Your final statement however is possibly the most chilling... You are in effect saying that should churches ever be banned world wide (like that will ever happen in America where the freedom of religion is a basic human right) then mankind no longer has a right to exist. In effect, should mankind decide once and for all the Christianity needs to be wiped from the face of Earth, instead mankind itself should be wiped away.

      July 6, 2014 at 5:15 am |
      • idiotusmaximus

        Actually global heating (climate change) will make the point of whether these fantasy gods are whatever stupid people believe them to be a moot point in a few years as humans and all living things do a slow roast as temperatures climb higher and remain there for hundreds of years.... any of you people ever visit or try to live on the Equator....almost impossible with the year long heat...

        July 6, 2014 at 6:50 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.