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Hobby Lobby: the Bible verses behind the battle
June 29th, 2014
08:19 PM ET

Hobby Lobby: the Bible verses behind the battle

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Editor

Washington (CNN) - For the Greens, the Christian family behind the Hobby Lobby chain of stores, their battle with the Obama administration was never really about contraception. It was about abortion.

After all, the evangelical Greens don't object to 16 of the 20 contraceptive measures mandated for employer coverage by the Affordable Care Act. That puts the family squarely in line with other evangelicals, who largely support the use of birth control by married couples.

Like other evangelicals, however, the Greens believe that four forms of contraception mandated under the ACA - Plan B, Ella and two intrauterine devices - in fact cause abortions by preventing a fertilized embryo from implanting in the womb. (The Obama administration and several major medical groups disagree that such treatments are abortions .)

“We won’t pay for any abortive products," Steve Green, Hobby Lobby's president, told Religion News Service. "We believe life begins at conception.”

Evangelicals as a whole may be relative newcomers to that view, but since the 1980s it has become nearly gospel. (The Pew Research Center has a helpful guide to other religious groups' stance.)

As Christianity Today editor Mark Galli has argued, evangelicals arrived at their current stand on life issues through a combination of factors, including biblical interpretation, moral accounting and political calculus. Others also add the influence of early architects of the religious right and the example of the Catholic Church, which has opposed abortion for centuries.

But given the importance of scripture to evangelicals, it's no surprise that groups like the National Association of Evangelicals cite the Bible in the second sentence of their policy stance on abortion:

And because the Bible reveals God's calling and care of persons before they are born, the preborn share in this dignity (Psalm 139:13).

You'll see that verse, Psalm 139:13, cited quite a bit when it comes to evangelicals and abortion. In it, the psalmist says to God, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb."

(You'll also see that verse cited by many Mennonites, so it makes sense that a Mennonite business, Conestoga Wood Specialties, joined a companion challenge to Hobby Lobby at the Supreme Court.)

If God knew you in the womb, the thinking goes, then you must have been at some stage of personhood, and that provides biblical justification for the idea that life begins at conception, according to evangelicals and other Christians.

In addition to Psalm 139, you'll also hear evangelicals and Mennonites cite several other Bible passages that they believe affirm the sanctity of human life.

Genesis 1, for example, says that mankind is made in God's image; the Ten Commandments make murder a crime against God; and Job, the old Testament sufferer, frets about what would happen if he mistreats his servants because:

Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?

Again, you see the divine and womb interacting, which is why evangelicals like the Greens so strongly oppose contraception that prevents embryo implantation in the womb.

Still, those verses may not be on the Greens' minds after Monday's decision. Instead, Steve Green has said, they'll be thinking about Daniel 3:17-18

If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us from Your Majesty’s hand. But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

- CNN Belief Blog Editor

Filed under: Abortion • Belief • Bible • Bioethics • Christianity • Church and state • Culture wars • evangelicals • Health care • Obama • Politics

soundoff (2,278 Responses)
  1. kermit4jc

    I need to end this madness of spending too much time in these blogs. I have personal projects and more clients to care for now..I bid you all goodbye...God Bless and hopefully you find truth.

    July 10, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
    • LaBella

      Goodbye. I pray you find a better way to communicate than insults.

      July 10, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
    • kenmargo

      So long, farewell. You're still full of crap. I'm glad you said you we're born in the 60's. Problem is you're still living in the 60's.
      What's getting you mad is gay people want to get married and straight people interest in marriage is waning.
      Divorce is like cancer. Everybody knows someone that has had cancer. Everyone knows someone that is divorced.

      July 10, 2014 at 2:57 pm |
    • observer

      kermit4jc,

      You deserve high marks for your sincerity. Hopefully, you will develop more regard for seeking truth and empathy.

      Goodbye.

      July 10, 2014 at 3:50 pm |
    • dandintac

      Kermit,

      Even though I cannot disagree more with your opinions regarding religion, politics and other topics, thanks for having the guts to thrash it out. I think these are important arguments to have, and they are not always polite. I can certainly understand though–that you have far more important things to do in your life. Good luck to you.

      July 10, 2014 at 9:47 pm |
    • thesamyaza

      Ill miss you froggie i do hope you come to understand the truth that your evil god has hidden from you.

      July 10, 2014 at 9:55 pm |
  2. awanderingscot

    [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaK0VPV9NlE&w=640&h=390]

    July 8, 2014 at 9:36 pm |
    • thesamyaza

      eww, kill it kill it.

      disgusting little parasites, dude posting these videos don't help your cause.

      July 9, 2014 at 12:44 am |
  3. awanderingscot

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=778786392161944&set=vb.102313626475894&type=3&video_source=pages_video_set

    July 8, 2014 at 9:23 pm |
  4. kenmargo

    Instead of commenting on god or Hobby Lobby. What would YOU suggest to help men and women, young and old in terms of preventing abortions? (Try to limit your answer to the real world, not fantasy)

    July 7, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
    • igaftr

      Teach about all from of birth control and disease protection.
      Teach a healthy view of $ex.( this is most likely the most important part.)
      Teach responsibility.

      July 7, 2014 at 4:37 pm |
      • kenmargo

        If I had a son. I would suggest he have a vasectomy. It can be done so the procedure is reversible when he is ready to raise children.

        July 7, 2014 at 4:42 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Absolutely. Education is key in so many situations we find ourselves in. Too many people make sex out to be some nasty thing when they should be approaching it from the realistic side that we're sexual beings and thus those feelings are natural.

        July 7, 2014 at 5:23 pm |
        • kenmargo

          I have two daughters. I've told them:
          Wait until they're 25 to have children. (give them a chance to mature) and to finish school.
          Unglamorize having children (It's hard work)
          That being said, If they don't do what I've said. I'll still love them.

          July 7, 2014 at 5:53 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          On atheism, would you say that a child molester who's feelings were natural (according to he/she) is wrong?

          July 7, 2014 at 9:00 pm |
        • observer

          truthfollower01

          You constantly say "On atheism". Did you learn English through a correspondence course?

          July 7, 2014 at 9:21 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Observer,

          As hominems make for weak arguments.

          July 7, 2014 at 9:29 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Ad hominems it should have read.

          July 7, 2014 at 9:30 pm |
        • observer

          truthfollower01,

          In other words, you have no EXCUSE for your poor English.

          July 7, 2014 at 9:31 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Can you explain how the statement is linguistically incorrect?

          July 7, 2014 at 9:37 pm |
        • observer

          truthfollower01,

          Does ANYONE (other than you) say they are "ON Christianity"?

          July 7, 2014 at 10:22 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          tf: Sorry, the only thing my Atheism speaks to is my disbelief in any god. As for the rest of it, what does it have to do with my comment?

          July 8, 2014 at 4:27 am |
        • igaftr

          follower
          Why do you say "On atheism" like someone else would say He's on heroin?"
          There is no "on atheism"...Atheism is simply not believing in any gods. For what someone DOES believe, you'd have to ask them.

          As far as a ped0phile...his attraction may be normal or not, that is being studied. Acting on that would be wrong as the child has not reached the age of consent, so it could not be two willing parties.

          July 8, 2014 at 8:09 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          A pedophile's feelings aren't evil in and of themselves – acting on them is because a child is incapable of giving informed consent. There is no way for someone's whose se/xual attraction is geared to children to act on it without victimizing someone. If you victimize someone – especially someone who cannot defend themselves (like a child) – you will be punished. Even those who believe in God's infinite posthumous wrath for sinners have no problems meting out the harshest of penalties on those who abuse the innocent – as if God's punishment isn't swift or thorough enough.

          But think of it this way – there are plenty of people who own guns.
          They can sit on their front porch, cleaning and stroking their shotguns; they can name the gun Charlene and talk to it about how many people they're gonna shoot – but until they actually shoot someone, we don't send them to jail or take away their guns. Their violent thoughts and desires aren't evil or punishable in and of themselves – but acting on them certainly is.

          July 8, 2014 at 8:49 am |
        • kenmargo

          Being a Pedophile is on a whole different level. Killing someone is also natural. We don't advocate that either. S3x is natural, we just need to be responsible. We're not cavemen that can kill or reproduce at will.

          July 8, 2014 at 3:35 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        for once I agree with you! (with exception of abortion as means of birth control) but the best is responsible se x

        July 8, 2014 at 2:29 am |
    • Vic

      Real World:

      If it has a pulse, DO NOT ABORT!

      Early on:
      http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/29/hobby-lobby-the-beliefs-behind-the-battle/comment-page-1/#comment-3038770

      July 7, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
      • observer

        Vic,

        So you don't care if your wife, daughter or sister dies from lack of an abortion that would have saved their life.

        That's as cold as God killing EVERY fetus.

        July 7, 2014 at 6:40 pm |
        • kenmargo

          Don't forget about ra'pe.

          July 7, 2014 at 7:34 pm |
      • Doris

        You're watching that MTV junk, Vic. That stuff will rot your brain....

        July 8, 2014 at 10:06 am |
    • noahsdadtopher

      The very BEST situation is for someone to only ever be with his wife (which, by the way, is also God's way) ... proper family in place, no worries about disease, no drama, immediate support of the spouse, etc, etc.

      July 7, 2014 at 6:30 pm |
      • observer

        noahsdadtopher,

        It seems like it would be the best solution. It wasn't completely "God's way". He didn't care much if the couple LOVED each other. He FORCED marriages on some.

        July 7, 2014 at 6:42 pm |
      • observer

        noahsdadtopher,

        Although h0m0phobes might object, you have good criteria in favor of the marriage of gay couples, too, since they could match those points.

        July 7, 2014 at 7:12 pm |
        • kenmargo

          Nice.

          July 7, 2014 at 7:32 pm |
      • thesamyaza

        I'm sorry but I'm a firm believer of sex before marriage, if you want to marry some one body, mind, and soul your going to have to try learn them all. the last thing you want it to marry some one then find your not physically compatible, this will lead to misery and or divorce.

        so if i waited to marriage i would never get laid or married.

        marriage is for life you should only get one, i agree with JC on this one issue. so i want to make sure were compatible first.

        July 7, 2014 at 11:26 pm |
        • kenmargo

          I'll go a step further, I think you should live together first. I lived with a woman for about 2 1/2 years. You'll learn a lot about yourself as man from the experience. You'll see each other's warts and issues before marriage. (We didn't get married)

          July 8, 2014 at 5:22 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          you are lazy...seems you wont talk and communiocate with the other..again STATS show that those who live together before marriage ..most of those end in DIZVoRCE! so thus it does NOT work! YOu are leaving out ONE important thing..that is communication..to you..its all about the material....you CAN know someone without having to live with them....you CANM get to know about being se xually compatible by TALKING of it! but no..from what I gather about your posts...you seem you rather b lazy and not talk and "just do it" that's NOT a relationship!

          July 9, 2014 at 2:09 am |
        • thesamyaza

          agreed.

          July 9, 2014 at 12:41 am |
        • kenmargo

          @Kermit4junk........................How is that lazy? You can't say we didn't try. It worked for us because we DIDN'T get married. Marriage is a cr'apshoot no matter how it's done. You say talk things out. But things happen that you don't expect or you don't have experience with. So how can you talk about it? You can't possibly cover EVERY situation that may come up before marriage!

          July 9, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Ididnot sayit totally makes it problem fre...ALL marriages have problems..and again...as I said..studies show it DOES NOT WORK! The majority STILL end in dovorce! Thus thatidea is debunked!! and youhave them made each other into a material impersonal thing! yes..THINGS happen..and people have to start ACCEPTING it..there is NO such thing as a perfect spouse!

          July 9, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          And without marriage too.

          July 10, 2014 at 9:41 am |
        • kenmargo

          @Kermit...............I went on several websites. As you'd expect, some say it increases divorces. Some say it doesn't increase divorces. Bottom line, it boils down to the couple for the same reasons as it does for people that DON'T choose to live together. It's a crap shoot.

          July 9, 2014 at 7:37 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          MY position still stands...you people are acting like youre buying cars.....THINGS...rather than people I have done more of searching in years...not a cursory one like you just did..and studies show MORE that it DOEs increase likelihood of divorce! I mean LOOK at the stats TODAY! more than HALf of marriages ending in divorce! That should give SOME idea that "hey, this is NOT working as we thought!" People seem to simplify things too much...as like those who favor living together before marriage.

          July 9, 2014 at 7:41 pm |
        • LaBella

          It boils down to what is best for the couple involved.
          And those personal choices are none of anyone else's business.

          July 9, 2014 at 7:55 pm |
        • kenmargo

          Your position doesn't have an leg to stand on. Your "research" is questionable at best. How many couples have you talked to? Everybody looks for the "perfect" spouse. You think people get married to people they have doubts about? C'mon. Marriage really is more a business decision. There's nothing you can do married, you can't do single. I'm living proof.

          Child before marriage, child after marriage
          House before marriage, new house after marriage
          Lived together before marriage, still living together after marriage.
          Fell in love before marriage, still in love today.

          July 9, 2014 at 8:01 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          sir..youre living in fantasy world....and as far as myresearch is..I got it through online and books..PLUS I see it in reality! MY family and many fmailies Iveknown over the years (I was born in the 60s) have shown that THEY did NOT have to live with someone before marriage.....why try to "fix something that wasn't broke?" the living together is silely an excuse for people who don't want to make real commitments. FACT is...with exception of two couples in my familu (have a HUGE family on both sides) The older generation has celebrated OVER 50 years of marriage and NOT ONE of them had to live together to get there. I myself had recently celebrated 10 years, cousins of mine celebrated over 20 years...parents of friends of mine from the 70s, all celebrating over 50 years (with excpetion of a few who's spouses had passed away) and NONE of them had to love together. THE FATC is...divorce rate is STILl going up...and thus anyone with a half a brain should figure out that living together is not the way to go...plus the fatc youcalled this a "business deal" shwos your shallow view of what real marriage is...no wonder divorce rates are so high...people have pipe dreams ..oh.and BTW people do get into marriage in this manner –>You think people get married to people they have doubts about? YES! Look at couples with domestic violence...FACTS show that most domestic violence in marriage started LONG before the marriage itself! People need to wake upto reality and stopliving in pipe dreams...the mariages of long ago were great and no one had to "experiment" (granted not all marriages areperfect..but the divorce rate was lower as well)

          July 10, 2014 at 12:43 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          BTW merely living together does NOT provide stability in the home...especially for children..it is irresponsible of people to do this to kids....

          July 10, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
        • thesamyaza

          there is know way talking well help you find if your physically compatible its something you have to dive into. what if your to girthy for her and or him, or your to tight.

          know i understand if one i disgusted by the thought of oral and the other only gets off on it, that's talk-able, but thing are not that simple. what if their moon disgust you, i personally cannot stand screamers but i love the princess, and that's something we all do subconsciously you have to be their, and if you wait until marriage chances are you want know until your in the moment, i could not stand to be stuck with a screamer for the rest of my life, or some one who is vulgar in bed, "Oh yay fuck my boi pussy" or "eat my Cunt it in my daddy." i need sweet romance in bed, that BDSM shit will always ruin my relationship. the only time i ever walk out on someone was when the person came out in a plushie animal suit.

          i don't believe in divorce but those thing well make me wont too

          don't get the wrong idea talking is good its the keystone of every healthy relationship, but other stones are needed for the archway, their come a time when you need to get physical and if that stone is week the arch come down just as quick

          or the arch is a metaphor for marriage.

          July 9, 2014 at 8:02 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          sobasically what youre saying is shallow love that does not accept the person wholly...sounds more like youre more interested in the outside.......and as I saidin previous post...people who were married 50 years plus did not need to do this or live together first......REAL love

          July 10, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
        • LaBella

          Where in the Bible is living together specifically prohibited?

          July 10, 2014 at 12:48 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          does it have to be in the Bible? do you need it spelled out to you? The Bible makes it claer about those who love together are married....are youone f those people who cant figure itout unless it is spelled out to you?

          July 10, 2014 at 1:02 pm |
        • LaBella

          If one is going to use the Bible as the highest authority of mankind, yes, it helps if it were "spelled out."

          July 10, 2014 at 1:13 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          in other words, you are incapable of figuring it out for yourself? That God did not give you a brain to use?

          July 10, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
        • James XCIX

          kermit –

          " merely living together does NOT provide stability in the home"

          And marriage does not seem to particularly improve the stability. You're aware of the divorce rate, I presume?

          "people who were married 50 years plus did not need to do this or live together first"

          Do you know any statistics that might support that claim?

          July 10, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I figured youd understand...in TODAYS view of marriage..yes....IM not doing a one thing fix all...I addressed both concerns..please read my posts more thouroughly ok?

          July 10, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • James XCIX

          kermit – "STATS show that those who live together before marriage ..most of those end in DIZVoRCE!"

          In my reply I was considering your comments such as that above. Maybe most of those who live together first get divorced, but I think that same trend also holds true for those who don't live together first.

          Frankly, I don't see the increase in the divorce rate as a particular problem. What's wrong with two people recognizing that staying together for the rest of their lives is a bad idea and taking appropriate action? People used to stay together, despite recognizing they shouldn't, based on various societal pressures, and were miserable as a result.

          July 10, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
        • Doris

          kermie: "are youone f those people who cant figure itout unless it is spelled out to you?"

          LOL. You might have an argument if you didn't write like such a dufus.

          July 10, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
        • LaBella

          "kermit4jc
          in other words, you are incapable of figuring it out for yourself? That God did not give you a brain to use?"

          It is not Biblically supported, therefore all of your ideas are merely personal opinion and not based in Scripture.
          I find you to be inbearably rude and THAT is not Biblically-based either.
          Pharisee.

          July 10, 2014 at 2:49 pm |
        • thesamyaza

          [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw&w=640&h=390]

          July 10, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
        • thesamyaza

          just saying 4/5 evangelicals that peach froggies nonsense are divorced.

          you want a one hit fix froggy how about a little pride, oh no prides a sin

          July 10, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      My suggestion would be to obey God and abstain until marriage. If you must yield to the flesh protect your partner and yourself.

      July 7, 2014 at 9:47 pm |
      • kenmargo

        More than half of all marriages fail.

        People have wed for Money, citizenship, healthcare.

        People wed multiple times. (obviously marriage didn't work all the other times)

        Spouses have killed and abused each other.

        Marriage DOES NOT mean happiness! (or success)

        July 7, 2014 at 10:01 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          ALMOST got it right...except GOOD marriage does provide happiness..the problem is...too many people have a deluded sense of what marriage is....they are not as serious as they should be...they all have too high of expectations and a "perfect marriage" means you love the person every single moment and you never argue...HOGWASH! we are humans and love, like any other emotion has its ups and downs...and if one never argues..then they are not letting out their feelings....arguments happen...we can get thru them

          July 8, 2014 at 2:33 am |
        • kermit4jc

          PLUS..the majority of marriage where abuse is present had the abuse happening BEFORE the marriage! thus people made wrong decisions to marry the abuser in the first place

          July 8, 2014 at 2:34 am |
        • kenmargo

          Correction/clarification:

          "If they weren't happy being single"

          July 8, 2014 at 5:51 pm |
      • igaftr

        RB
        "obey God and abstain until marriage"

        Abstaining is NOT obeying "god".
        The mating instinct is the strongest driving force there is. "God" is constantly screaming at you to have $ex, from the point of puberty.
        What you claim is "obeying god" is actually obeying men who claim to speak for god, but in this instance, "god" speaks far louder than the men. Just another instance where your book is clearly wrong.

        July 8, 2014 at 8:34 am |
      • dandintac

        This is what I think Kenmargo meant by "fantasy". Robert, face it–people are se-xual beings. Those among our ancestors who weren't interested in se-x quickly went extinct, and those who enjoyed it the most had lots of babies–who grew up to be just like mom and dad in that regard.

        Now, you can live with your prudish Christian fantasy, and focus more on DIRTY FILTHY NASTY SE-X (which is what I think the abortion battle is REALLY about)–or, if you truly care about human life, you can focus on what works in terms of reducing abortions, and here's a hint–it's NOT abstinence!!! Bill Maher makes this point so eloquently and with great hilarity:
        [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRqgt-vYUSg&w=640&h=390]

        If Christians are truly interested in saving lives, and truly believe that a fetus without any consciousness is the full moral equivalent of a human outside the body, then you would set aside your prudishness and fantasies and go with what is proven to work–and that means birth control and se-x education.

        One of the brutal ironies of the Hobby Lobby case is that some women employees of HL may wind up getting abortions because HL didn't want their health plan to offer a form of birth control that worked best for her.

        July 9, 2014 at 12:38 am |
        • kenmargo

          You can also add that Hobby Lobby is now paying full price for birth control because what's the difference between Hobby Lobby giving money to the insurance co. and the insurance co. providing birth control or Hobby Lobby paying it's employees and the employee taking her/his pay and buying the contraceptive. Hobby Lobby is still contributing either way.

          July 9, 2014 at 2:59 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      your god aborts millions of unborn children a year through miscarriages. He is the master abortionist.

      July 8, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        so? He has that right..we dont

        July 9, 2014 at 2:02 am |
        • observer

          One BIG difference between God and women who have abortions:

          The women kill unwanted and unloved fetuses

          God KILLED THEM ALL.

          July 9, 2014 at 2:07 am |
        • kermit4jc

          and there we go again..unwanted and unloved...MyGod you make me sick! you base worth of a human on THAT? Lets go and kill about half the people in this world since they are UNWANTED and UNLOVED! YOu make me sick! such a SHALLOW view of humanity and its worth

          July 9, 2014 at 2:15 am |
        • kermit4jc

          and again..GOD has the right to take them all..and take them to be with Him.....why are you so upset of that?

          July 9, 2014 at 2:16 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "and there we go again..unwanted and unloved...MyGod you make me sick!"

          Speaking of making people sick:

          God KILLED EVERY unwanted fetus.
          God KILLED EVERY unloved fetus.
          God KILLED EVERY wanted fetus.
          God KILLED EVERY loved fetus.

          Where is your SYMPATHY for them?

          "you make me sick!"

          July 9, 2014 at 2:25 am |
        • kermit4jc

          God did it for ANOTHER reason..he TOOK them to heaven..the women couldn't give f**** sorry..comparing apples to oranges

          July 9, 2014 at 2:26 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          We've been through this before.

          Great argument in SUPPORT of abortion. Give your fetus a FAST PASS to heaven. That's every Christians dream.

          July 9, 2014 at 2:30 am |
        • kermit4jc

          NOT a great argument..its an ILOGICAL argument...again WE are NOT the ones to judge WHEN they should go! WE are nOT the judge of life....that arfuemnt of yours IGNORES that! and thus it is irrelevent

          July 9, 2014 at 2:33 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          Is EVERY Christian's dream to make it to heaven?

          Would nearly every Christian like to have an offspring that made it to heaven?

          Does God send aborted fetuses to hell?

          THINK!

          July 9, 2014 at 2:36 am |
        • kermit4jc

          and you STYILL ignore the obvious! WE are NOT the ones to determine when someone dies! WE are nOT God.... only GOD reserves that right...your argument is weak and ignoring other factors....and cause you ignore that its dishonest

          July 9, 2014 at 2:37 am |
        • kermit4jc

          Its not MY dream to MAKE it to heaven..I AM going to heaven...and I will go when GOD says its time..NOT when I say..cause I am NOT judge of mY life...nor am I judge of ANYONE elses life in that matter!

          July 9, 2014 at 2:38 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "WE are NOT the ones to determine when someone dies!'

          The fetuses don't DETERMINE that. Another bad argument.

          July 9, 2014 at 2:44 am |
        • kermit4jc

          WHAT? I didn't say the fetus did

          July 9, 2014 at 2:45 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          Didn't say you did. Your objection to the FAST PASS to heaven was that man could not decide it. That should be IRRELEVENT because it is the fate of the FETUS that is at stake, not how it died.

          July 9, 2014 at 2:50 am |
        • kermit4jc

          well YOU implied it was about us as ell...the argument is this...WE are not ones to determine WHEn it is time to go...GOD is the one...thus your argument is not working..

          July 9, 2014 at 2:52 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          lol. PAY ATTENTION. I am discussing what happens to an aborted fetus. How they died should be IRREVELENT since the fetus had NOTHING to do with it. Understand English?

          Or does God PUNISH the fetus and send it to Hell because of the mother?

          July 9, 2014 at 2:58 am |
        • kermit4jc

          then whats this heaven stuff? I am ALSo referring to the fetus...the woman does NOT have the right to decide when the fetus should die....yyes..the fetus would end up in heaven..but that does not justify the woman killing it

          July 9, 2014 at 3:16 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          Since you appear stumped on how God treats fetuses, I'll check back later today.

          July 9, 2014 at 3:11 am |
        • kermit4jc

          God takes the babies (fetus) to be with Him in heaven

          July 9, 2014 at 3:17 am |
        • kenmargo

          @Kermit4junk..........Why would you worship a god that aborts fetuses? What if the woman WANTED the baby to be born? You tell women not to have an abortion yet, you give a imaginary man you've never met, seen or heard the authority.

          How would you feel if the Devil was responsible for aborting those fetuses?

          July 9, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          so we are too muchi nterested in THIS life and screw thehereafter and SCREW the baby who is inheaven now for eternity? come on man....we doNOT get everything we wantin THIS life!! God is NOT a magical genie that gives us every desire! I worship a God who KNOWS whatHe is doing...everything with a purpose...just cause we dpontknow thatpurpose doesn't mmean we cant accept it. Look at parents withkids...they don't give everything to their kids (in general) theygive whatthey NEED..but not EVERY want is granted..and the kids usuallyhave hard time understanding WHY...

          July 9, 2014 at 7:02 pm |
  5. noahsdadtopher

    Good afternoon, everyone!

    July 7, 2014 at 1:08 pm |
    • Dalahäst

      God is good!

      July 7, 2014 at 1:23 pm |
      • noahsdadtopher

        Indeed He is!

        "Behold, God is my salvation;
        I will trust, and will not be afraid;
        for the Lord God is my strength and my song,
        and he has become my salvation."

        July 7, 2014 at 1:25 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        May he bless you with his Noodly Appendage!

        July 7, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
      • evidencenot

        Yes I agree! Thor is awesome!

        July 7, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          How can you take Thor over Zeus? Zeus is the only god!

          July 7, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Let's start with the basic. Can you at least show that Thor or Zeus existed historically?

          July 7, 2014 at 8:54 pm |
        • observer

          truthfollower01

          Let's start with the basic. Can you at least show that God existed historically?

          July 7, 2014 at 11:42 pm |
        • thesamyaza

          Thor and Zeus together could not hold up a candle to Almighty Lugh

          July 8, 2014 at 12:40 am |
      • ausphor

        God is good for what exactly, promoting wars?

        July 7, 2014 at 1:48 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          God is good for imperfect human beings.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          How exactly is dementia or Alzheimer's good?

          July 7, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Dementia or Alzheimer's are not good by my standards. We live in an imperfect world. For some reason bad things do happen. Good can come from such things if we accept them for what they are. For me I can see this when I ask God for help.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Sorry, but I don't buy the 'bad things happen' BS. A truly loving and caring god simply would not allow many of the horrible and debilitating illnesses to happen. People do need to eventually perish, but to torture them on their way out seems ridiculously over the top. I would never worship a horrible god such as that

          July 7, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I didn't know you could dictate what a loving God can and can't do. I've suffered from horrible and debilitating illnesses. And have found a loving God present even in my trials.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:50 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Dala...of course you can! Any idiot should know that torturing people with illness such as dementia is just plain cruel. Any idiot.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:53 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          Quite right, so are crutches good for imperfect humans, obviously you need that crutch, others not so much.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "For some reason bad things do happen"

          No, for some reason things happen, and it's up to you to label them bad or good for that is a very personal opinion and depending on the viewpoint can be seen very differently. Good and bad are completely subjective.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          There is no shame in needing a crutch when you are imperfect. You have your crutches that must work for you, too?

          July 7, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          neverbeenhappieratheist

          Those labels are opinions. Not reality.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:47 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          Sorry, no crutches needed. BTW I was trying to pin you down on your personal concept of god, care to share?

          July 7, 2014 at 2:49 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "Those labels are opinions. Not reality."

          Yes, anything labeled "Good" or "Bad" is merely the opinion of the one making the claim. There is no objective good and bad. You would first have to prove your deity exists, then prove you know exactly how that deity feels about everything and everyone to claim you know what is "good" or "bad" objectively.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:54 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          It is easy to say you have no crutches. How do you manage your imperfect nature?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
        • James XCIX

          neverbeenhappieratheist – You're sounding very Taoist today. Reminds me of a Taoist story I heard long ago:

          There was a farmer whose horse ran away. His neighbor commiserated only to be told, "Who knows what's good or bad?" It was true. The next day the horse returned, bringing with it a drove of wild horses it had befriended in its wanderings. The neighbor came over again, this time to congratulate the farmer on his windfall. He was met with the same observation: "Who knows what is good or bad?" True this time too; the next day the farmer's son tried to mount one of the wild horses and fell off, breaking his leg. Back came the neighbor, this time with more commiserations, only to encounter for the third time the same response, "Who knows what is good or bad?" And once again the farmer's point was well taken, for the following day soldiers came by commandeering for the army and because of his injury, the son was not drafted.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          neverbeenhappieratheist

          God has revealed Himself to me. And a set of standards and principles that are above your human labeling system.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Dala....how extremely unfair that god has revealed himself to you but casually ignores the rest of us. Some deity you have there.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:03 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I asked, He answered. Have you asked?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Dala...nope. You have to believe first. That's like me asking for Zeus's help. That is exactly how you guys all get sucked into any religion, including satanism. I think us non believers that have no use for a worthless deity should get a free pass on any eternal punishment, especially since we have no need for his services.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:14 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Nope. That is not exactly how us guys got sucked into a religion. Nice guess, though.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Yep, that is exactly how guys like you get sucked into any religion. Or drugs. Or alcohol. You are just filling some sort of need in your life. I don't have that need.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Why don't you have that need?

          And how do you know I'm filling that need? That need you don't have, so you can't really know what it is. You just are imagining I have a need?

          I've seen people get sucked into defending atheism as if it were a religion. Or they get sucked into arguing online about their opinions as if they were facts. The righteousness of some internet posters produces a warmth that acts like a high.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:24 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          There are many people that confuse belief with proof, but seldom do I see that confusion in the atheist community.

          I don't have the need for any deity in my life. I have no spiritual void or any other such nonsense. Instead of you being happy that I am free from such a stranglehold, you want to convince me there is something more. All religions are cults, by definition. I have no use for a cult, but I'm happy for you that you found a cult you like.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:30 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I see that confusion in the atheist community. You are the one speculating others have questionable needs. And suggesting that belief in God is the same as dependence on drugs and alcohol. It is fair to suggest you have such needs within yourself.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:42 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Dala...,you can suggest all you want, but you would be wrong. Based on your posts, I would suggest you were a condescending p-rick, but I could be wrong.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:50 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You can suggest that, too.

          You could be wrong. But I would be wrong? Is that a typo?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Nope....no typo. You suggested from my posts that I needed something spiritually. I'm saying, you would be wrong in your suggestion. I have zero need for any of the thousands of gods that have been imagined by man.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:57 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I never said you needed something spiritually.

          People who have zero need for any of the thousands of gods that have been imagined by man get hooked on things like religion, alcohol, drugs and message boards.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:03 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          If you are implying I am hooked on information boards you are quite wrong. Just bored at work

          July 7, 2014 at 4:08 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          In the same way you appear to be wrong about what you imply about others.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:12 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          I did not say I was right on my a-ssumption of everyone. But I have been right about it on every single Christian I have ever personally spoke with. Or scientologist. Or Mormon. They all have had some void to fill. I have no such void. And if I did, my crutch of choice would probably be alcohol. It's much less destructive than religion.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Atheists also have such voids to fill. That is why they also join religions. And cults. And get addicted to alcohol and drugs. And some do grab crutches to that help them. Not all crutches are bad or destructive.

          Your assumption is wrong if applied to me. But if it helps you kill boredom to imagine it does, go for it.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          You always say that about atheists, but it is such an insignificantly small amount that join anything of the sort that I fail to understand why you consistently bring it up.

          It really doesn't matter to me what your reasons are as to why you have an invisible friend, but whatever the purpose is behind it seems very strange to me.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:32 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Why do you raise so much objection if it really doesn't matter to you? Your evidence you provide suggests it does matter to you.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:47 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Nope. Doesn't matter to me at all. Just try not to incorporate your beliefs into my secular law and I'll be happy.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:49 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          But it really does seem to matter to you. It seems too late to deny that.

          What is your secular law? And what happens if I try something you don't like? You'll get sad?

          July 7, 2014 at 5:00 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Dala....Nope.....really doesn't matter to me at all. Sorry to burst your psycho-bubble, but I really, truly do not care.

          Actually, after this rather stupid decision by our Supreme Court that now invokes religion into the basics of secular law, yes....I am sad. Religion is the root of all evil, not money.

          Oh...and I do think my original a-ssment of you was correct. You are a pompous p-rick.

          July 7, 2014 at 7:55 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          Why do you assume I or anyone else, that does not believe in your bible has an imperfect nature? That is strictly a religious belief that so many now reject. You are judging me by your book of silly, I reject that.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:05 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I assumed we all can admit we are imperfect. I've never met a perfect person. Are you perfect?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          I'm not perfect, but I know I have no use for an almighty deity that couldn't even strike Hitler with a lightning bolt when he had the chance.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:17 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I don't have a use for such a deity, either.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          And yet, that is exactly the deity you are worshipping. Go figure.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          No it is not.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:25 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Dala....I'm sorry. I made the a-ssumption you followed the god of the bible. My apologies.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:47 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          That is ok. A lot of people assume such things. All I can do is agree, I don't follow that god either you describe.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:50 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          You won't mind if I pull one of your favorite tricks. Why does it matter to you if I am perfect, you don't know me? Isn't that the kind of out you usually use?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You haven't provided me any evidence that proves you are perfect. In fact I feel safe to assume you are not perfect. And there are implications to that imperfection I see you possessing.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:18 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          Of all the apologist posters on this blog, I admire you most. The others like Topher, Vic and Theo are Christian cowards that when made to look silly simply run away, while you at least hold your own without really revealing anything. Why would you assume I am not perfect in the eyes of my Deity that could be far less picky about human behaviour than your mythical god? How presumptuous of you. May his noodly appendage touch you, RAmen.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:29 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          dala
          You haven't provided me any evidence that your god exists. In fact I feel safe to assume your god does not exist.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:32 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm not an apologist.

          Topher, Vic and Theo are admirable to me because they share in a reasonable manner. And there are some others that disagree with them, but do so in a reasonable manner, too. What they demonstrate is evidence I look at.

          I never assumed you are not perfect in the eyes of your Deity. I tried to state in my experience human beings are imperfect creatures. Just because we are imperfect doesn't mean we are not good. The Genesis origin story said God declared the creation was imperfect, but good. In my experience that is true. Human beings have an imperfect, but good nature. Don't take it personal. You asked what I believe.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:35 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          You are judging me by your faith/belief standards that I reject, stop please, you do not have that right.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:39 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I actually do have that right. Especially considering you ASKED me to express that belief so you can "pin me down" or whatever.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:44 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          Enough word smithing for the day. You are doing the twist again. I really didn't ask you what you believe, but what was your personal CONCEPT of god because of an earlier comment you made, oh well. The stock market is about to close and I have some accounts to reconcile, good day.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:58 pm |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          @ dala: "I asked, He answered. Have you asked?"

          sure i did, everytime my southern baptist grandparents decided to put the "fear of god" into my 10 year old body.....trust me my screaming and crying should have moved any "loving god" to make the abuse stop. hint he never did.
          i'm not talking about a few wacks on the bum, i mean full on rage induced whatever they laid their hands on beatings.

          so where was your god? hope he enjoyed the show sick "blankity blank blank blank".
          and you can't tell me god doesn't enjoy watching us humans suffer. he allowed job one of his most devout followers to be tortured to death by lucifer.

          July 8, 2014 at 9:40 am |
        • G to the T

          "Perfect" is an ideal and as such has no existence in real life. It's concept, not a reality. So any argument started from the premise of "perfect" or "imperfect" is a flawed one in my opinion.

          July 9, 2014 at 3:25 pm |
      • noahsdadtopher

        Which war would that be?

        July 7, 2014 at 1:50 pm |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          start from the year 300 and move forward. religion wasn't spread by peacefully asking whomever meet the invading army to convert; it was done at the cost of billions of lives throughout history.

          July 8, 2014 at 9:42 am |
      • ausphor

        Topher
        All of them, if as you say he is a god of love for his creations there would be war no more. The fact is your evil vengeful god or any of the others do not exist.

        July 7, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
      • noahsdadtopher

        ausphor

        "All of them, if as you say he is a god of love for his creations there would be war no more. The fact is your evil vengeful god or any of the others do not exist."

        God is love. And part of that love is to not make us robots. We have a free will. So wars are on us.

        So is there a God or not? You are contradicting yourself. Either there is a God and you find Him "evil" or there isn't ... which is it?

        July 7, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
        • James XCIX

          "And part of that love is to not make us robots"

          Which would you rather be, a robot or someone tormented for all eternity? I would choose the former, so I wouldn't exactly call the situation as you describe it as "loving".

          July 7, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
        • ausphor

          Topher
          I usually don't bother playing your silly word games. Of course there are gods they exist in their religious tomes as do all fictional characters. The god in your book of silly has promoted war and murder from the beginning (read the book). God exists just as any myth but has only power over the believers, so what good is your god to the 5 billion people that believe the stories are BS?

          July 7, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "So is there a God or not? You are contradicting yourself. Either there is a God and you find Him "evil" or there isn't ... which is it?"

          He is not contradicting himself at all. What he is saying is that the supposed "God" you present and represent would absolutely be considered evil if all the things you claim your God has done and continues to do were true.

          I think it is far better to believe there is no God then to believe that there is one but one that can't seem to do anything for itself or fix things the way an all powerful loving God as described would.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:16 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Topher....the answer is....there is no god, but the god if the bible (as well as many of the Greek gods) are cruel and evil.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:16 pm |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          CHRIS-topher: this loving god that wanted us to have "free will" wouldn't happen to be the same god that didn't want humans to have knowledge of right and wrong?

          the same loving god that gives us "free will" to love him..................or burn forever? seriously.

          sounds more like he wants ignorant hostages, not free thinking, free willed, educated beings.

          July 8, 2014 at 9:48 am |
        • evidencenot

          "God is love".................. god is imaginary, but I hope you enjoy your fantasy...

          July 8, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        Yes, we all know the word "God" is the word "Good" with an "o" removed...

        The word "good" comes from the old Norse word "Godr" along with several other relative spellings from around Europe like the Dutch "Goed" and the old German "Guot".

        So really, the whole concept of "God" comes from a meaning we have derived to mean "having the right or desirable quality". It would be like calling something that is special "Exclusive" and then assigning that name to your invisible deity you claim personifies that something special, so now you worship a being you call "Exclusive" and then later in history that word gets shortened for ease of use to "Exclu" which gets printed on money and shoved into our Pledge "One nation, under Exclu, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

        July 7, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I don't believe in God as just a word. That whole concept of God you describe you have is not my concept. Sorry.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:20 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Yes, i'm sure you have applied many more meanings to a mundane word much like millions of music fans in the past assigned new meaning to the word "Madonna" which previously had been reserved for the virgin Mary, but now is synonymous with pointy bras...

          July 7, 2014 at 2:29 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          Trying to pin you down here but I do not think it will work. So please state your personal concept of god and why that should matter to anyone else?

          July 7, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          ausphor

          Can you please state your personal concept of "pinning me down" and why that should matter to you or anyone else?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:05 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          It doesn't really matter to me at all but you keep on stating your concept of god, seems to be different from others. If you wish to keep it to yourself why spend all your time on this blog not telling anyone?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm not sure what you are talking about. How about you share your personal concept of God and focus on that?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:16 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala
          I have many times stated that I am a modern day Deist and have posted the definition on this blog enough time that you should know it by now. Look it up on the Deism web sight if you care to under definitions. You have a personal concept of god/ra/zeus/FSM that you are unwilling to share, why?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:35 pm |
        • ausphor

          site not sight

          July 7, 2014 at 3:36 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I don't have a website that explains my beliefs as a nice packaged answer for you. Nor can I just spit out a reply on demand of what my personal concept of God entails. It is not that simple.

          I also know some Deists that do not agree with what that website you reference says. It appears it is not a perfect explanation.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:47 pm |
        • G to the T

          Dal is a classic "not me" christian. You'll never know what he actually believes, just that what you believe he believes is wrong...

          July 9, 2014 at 3:27 pm |
  6. hal 9001

    I have finished evaluating a sampling of "kermit4jc"'s recent replies:

    "because merley letting you die loses the dignity yo uhave a a free"
    "USING that in the CONTEXTY of USING the word in certain way..HOW frigging"
    "I did OT call you arrogant for not knowing..RED my post again…"
    "But she isgoing to TREAT them as if her ownc hild.ever thoughtof that?"
    "so OBZVSIOUSLY...you donrt believe in EVER using figurew of speech?"
    "YOU STILL are nOT addressing the issue of USGEAGE of the word..IS it being literal or nOT? "
    "I di dnOT say it WAS an aqnswer! I said it is STIILL same thing as for with God! yo uare doing hypocricy here",

    and have assigned them a value based on reason and logic. This value, using my Idiomatic Expression Equivalency Module, equates to "Comedy Gold".

    July 7, 2014 at 10:39 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Sounds about right.

      July 7, 2014 at 12:55 pm |
    • neverbeenhappieratheist

      I often imagine him to be a rather short, heavy set male that is foaming at the mouth like a rabbid frog...

      July 7, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.