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August 22nd, 2014
07:00 AM ET

Why liberals are more tolerant of atheists

Opinion by Chris Stedman, special to CNN

(CNN) Conservative atheist and television pundit S.E. Cupp has come out swinging against progressive atheists.

In a clip (see above) for CNN’s “Crossfire,” she argues that conservative atheists are “better” than liberal nonbelievers. What’s more, Cupp says, those on the right respect and tolerate atheists more than liberals do.

She’s wrong, and here are three reasons why.

Fact: Atheists are still political outcasts.

“It seems like there’s this idea perpetuated by atheists that atheists are somehow disenfranchised or left out of the political process,” Cupp says. “I just don’t find that to be the case.”

Survey data contradict Cupp.

For instance, a 2014 Pew Research study found that Americans are less likely to vote for an atheist presidential candidate than any other survey category—even if they share that candidate’s political views.

Faring better than atheists: candidates who have engaged in extramarital affairs and those with zero political experience.

And unless she recently had a change of heart, Cupp herself falls in line with the majority of Americans. In 2012 she said, “I would never vote for an atheist president. Ever.”

While atheists are making political inroads, we’re also still on the margins in a number of ways. Cupp concludes the clip by saying, “I think our atheists are better than yours.”

Apparently they’re still not good enough to be president.

Fact: Conservatives are hostile toward atheists.

“There’s another myth: that conservatism is somehow hostile to atheism,” Cupp says. “I’m a conservative atheist (and) I’ve felt very welcomed.”

But Cupp goes beyond arguing that conservatives broadly welcome nontheists—she also argues that liberals are less accepting of atheists.

“I’d go so far as to say conservatism is far more intellectually honest and respectful of atheism than liberalism has been,” she says.

Again, Pew’s surveys suggest otherwise.

While the number of people who say they wouldn't vote for an atheist candidate sits at 70% among Republicans, that number drops to 42% among Democrats. (“Progressive,” “liberal,” and “Democrat” certainly aren’t synonyms, but there is overlap.)

Of course, conservative hostility toward atheists goes beyond voting for a presidential candidate.

Earlier this year, the group American Atheists announced plans to sponsor a table at CPAC, the country’s largest annual gathering of conservatives. But within hours, after a number of conservatives spoke out against their inclusion, they were promptly uninvited.

Many of the most prominent anti-atheist voices—including Sarah Palin, Erick Erickson, Mike Huckabee and Newt Gingrich—are conservative politicians and commentators, and I have yet to hear many other conservatives (Cupp included) condemn their anti-atheist remarks.

On the other hand, a number of political moderates and liberals have welcomed nontheists.

In 2009, for example, President Barack Obama became the first commander in chief to reference nonbelievers in an inaugural address. The next year, his administration became the first to meet with representatives from the atheist community.

Overall, a much larger percentage of the religiously unaffiliated (a category that includes many atheists) identify as liberal than conservative.

In 2012, Pew reported that 61 percent of nonreligious Americans are either Democrat or lean Democrat, while just 27 percent identify as or lean Republican.

If it truly were the case that conservatives are much more “respectful of atheism,” I would expect to see more Republican atheists.

Fact: Most liberals respect religious diversity.

“Conservatives appreciate an intellectual diversity,” Cupp says. “In contrast, on the left it seems as though there is this knee-jerk embrace of what is more like a militant hostility to faith.”

If you’ve been paying attention to Cupp’s arguments so far, this one should be a bit confusing. Which is it? Are liberals hostile toward atheists—or the religious? (Or are liberals just hostile toward everyone?)

But religious diversity is actually significantly greater among Democrats—for example, Pew reported in 2011 that just 11% of Muslims affiliate with Republicans, while 60% identify as or lean Democrat.

By contrast, as much as 74% of GOP voters identify as Christian, according to recent surveys and polls.

Finally, Cupp lifts up self-identified progressive Bill Maher—who has said, among other things, that religious believers have a “neurological disorder”—as an example of liberal intolerance.

I should give credit where it’s due: Cupp is partially right here. Maher’s take on religion is problematic and should be condemned.

But his views certainly aren’t representative of most of the progressive atheists I know. Suggesting that Maher speaks for atheism is like saying Pat Robertson represents all of Christianity.

In the end, I’m not arguing that progressives are perfect. We have plenty of our own issues and aren’t as welcoming of atheists or some believers as we could be.

But to say that we’re less tolerant of religious and nonreligious diversity than conservatives? Well, that’s just hard to believe.

Chris Stedman is Executive Director of the Yale Humanist Community, author of "Faitheist," and atheist columnist for Religion News Service. Follow him on Twitter @ChrisDStedman. The views expressed in this column belong to Stedman. 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Culture wars • Discrimination • Nones • Opinion • Politics • Prejudice

soundoff (3,322 Responses)
  1. jocelynsophia

    to my friends,

    i, jocelyn poesnecker, firmly believe, and say that GOD does not have a son.
    and to those who firmly say that GOD is the ONE only CREATOR of us all, and that Jesus was just one man that GOD Created, i humbly ask GOD to Grant a special Blessing today.
    GOD is not the father of anyone. GOD Is more Aware than any father, GOD Being Aware of all of us.
    GOD Sees all of us, all at the same time, without that being hard for GOD.
    GOD Hears everyone, if they speak, and GOD does not forget what GOD Heard, and from whom the words came.
    GOD Is more Loving than any father. GOD Cares about all of us more than any father.

    GOD does not have a mother, hence all must stop saying that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is anything other than a human woman that GOD Created a long time ago.

    GOD Blessed us, and Is ever With us, however we do not see GOD during this life. people see GOD after death, if GOD Wants them to.

    sincerely, jocelyn poesnecker

    for wholesome songs and more-youtube and google plus: jocelyn poesnecker

    August 31, 2014 at 9:41 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Thous Shalt Not Steal!! Isn't that one of your commandments? So then why are you breaking it by stealing advertising space for your youtube channel??? And why the need to be obnoxious-posting the same babble 4 x's (3 here and once one another article)?

      August 31, 2014 at 10:15 am |
    • igaftr

      Posting this multiple times does not change the fact that you can't show this "god" of yours to be anything more than imaginary.

      August 31, 2014 at 10:21 am |
    • tallulah131

      Here's a song by my favorite artist (Robyn Hitchcock):

      Where do you go when you die?
      Where do you go when you die?
      There isn't any Saviour
      There isn't any Lord
      There isn't a Madonna
      Sitting there to be adored
      There is no damnation
      There is no salvation
      This is it for you, baby
      This is it for me
      Watch out, honey
      Where do you go when you die?
      Where do you go when you die?
      A church is full of people
      Praying to themselves
      Praying to each other
      Praying not to go to hell
      A church is full of people
      Praying to the void
      Eyes deep within them
      And they're feeling paranoid
      All I ever been is me
      All I know is I
      And I will turn to nothing
      In the second that I die
      Oh, where do you go when you die?
      Where do you go when you die?
      Your consciousness evaporates
      Your body hits the ground
      And if you have a soul, you know
      It will not stick around
      It could merge with Napoleon's
      Or blend with Easy E's
      It might get stuck in limbo
      Like a balloon stuck in the trees
      There ain't no Pontius Pilate
      There ain't no Judas Priest
      There's just a lump of rotting meat
      Officially pronounced deceased
      Oh yeah, baby, where do you go when you die?
      Where do you go when you die?
      You're not supposed to ask this question
      You're supposed to be here now
      And if you have good karma
      You won't come back as a piece of British beef
      Where do you go when you die?
      Nowhere
      Where do you go when you die?
      Nowhere
      When you die

      September 1, 2014 at 12:04 am |
    • realbuckyball

      Yes Jocelyn,
      We all know capitalizing things makes them true.
      Amen.Yes indeedy.

      September 2, 2014 at 1:45 am |
  2. jocelynsophia

    to my friends,

    i, jocelyn poesnecker, ask GOD humbly to Grant a special Help today, sunday, the last day of august 2014, to all those who firmly believe, and say that GOD does not have a son.
    and to those who firmly say that GOD is the ONE only CREATOR of us all, and that Jesus was just one man that GOD Created.
    GOD is not the father of anyone. GOD Is more Aware than any father, GOD Being Aware of all of us.
    GOD Sees all of us, all at the same time, without that being hard for GOD.
    GOD Hears everyone, if they speak, and GOD does not forget what GOD Heard, and from whom the words came.
    GOD Is more Loving than any father. GOD Cares about all of us more than any father.

    GOD does not have a mother, hence all must stop saying that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is anything other than a human woman that GOD Created a long time ago.

    GOD Blessed us, and Is ever With us, however we do not see GOD during this life. people see GOD after death, if GOD Wants them to.

    sincerely, jocelyn poesnecker

    for wholesome songs and more-youtube and google plus: jocelyn poesnecker

    August 31, 2014 at 9:39 am |
    • igaftr

      No matter how "firm" your belief is, it is still baseless belief. There is no evidence of any god anywhere, and if Jesus did exist, there is no evidence he was anything more than just another man.

      August 31, 2014 at 10:13 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        I'm just curious as to why she needed to post it 4 x's. I think I read the first line and then the line that advertised her youtube channel and knew pretty much the story between those lines. It's not very convincing and it's a sad world when they don't see that.

        August 31, 2014 at 10:22 am |
  3. jocelynsophia

    to my friends,
    i ask GOD humbly to Grant a special Help today, sunday, the last day of august 2014, to all those who firmly believe, and say that GOD does not have a son.
    and to those who firmly say that GOD is the ONE only CREATOR of us all, and that Jesus was just one man that GOD Created.
    GOD is not the father of anyone. GOD Is more Aware than any father, GOD Being Aware of all of us.
    GOD Sees all of us, all at the same time, without that being hard for GOD.
    GOD Hears everyone, if they speak, and GOD does not forget what GOD Heard, and from whom the words came.
    GOD Is more Loving than any father. GOD Cares about all of us more than any father.

    GOD does not have a mother, hence all must stop saying that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is anything other than a human woman that GOD Created a long time ago.

    GOD Blessed us, and Is ever With us, however we do not see GOD during this life. people see GOD after death, if GOD Wants them to.

    sincerely, jocelyn poesnecker

    for wholesome songs and more-youtube and google plus: jocelyn poesnecker

    August 31, 2014 at 9:39 am |
  4. ellie2112

    Retired FBI Agent Told Patriot Groups That Obama’s Feds Have Set Up 30,000 Guillotines
    NTEB News Desk | June 20, 2013
    The Coming FEMA Camps
    “and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” Revelation 20:4
    Shortly before his death in 2011, Ted Gunderson had this to say to Patriot groups across America in 2009. The story was originally posted on the Southern Poverty Law Center website. It’s one thing to hear this from conservative sites like Alex Jones or Drudge Report, but when rabidly liberal sites like Democratic Underground start reporting on this you know that the truth is starting to ooze out of Washington. Or leaked on purpose to prepare you. Hmm…
    retired-fbi-agent-ted-gunderson-says-obama-has-30000-guillotines-federal-bureau-investigation
    “We’re in perilous times. Dem Underground: In Pensacola, Fla., retired FBI agent Ted Gunderson tells a gathering of anti-government “Patriots” that the federal government has set up 1,000 internment camps across the country and is storing 30,000 guillotines and a half-million caskets in Atlanta. They’re there for the day the government finally declares martial law and moves in to round up or kill American dissenters, he says. “They’re going to keep track of all of us, folks,” Gunderson warns.

    August 31, 2014 at 3:56 am |
    • neverbeenhappieratheist

      uh, nope.

      August 31, 2014 at 7:13 am |
    • Doris

      Guillotines? My word, that sounds like something from Nutsadamus.

      August 31, 2014 at 9:54 am |
    • realbuckyball

      30,000 ? Really. Yet the manufacturer said nothing ? Oh it was the same as the 300,000 plastic coffins from yesterday.
      Oh OK.
      Time for more pills, CrazyEllie.

      September 2, 2014 at 1:47 am |
  5. tnfreethinker

    This statement "I’d go so far as to say conservatism is far more intellectually honest and respectful of atheism than liberalism has been,” is proof that SE Cupp lacks intellectual honesty.

    August 29, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
    • austin929

      you never want to try to fit a mold.

      August 29, 2014 at 2:40 pm |
      • Science Works

        Every Sperm is Sacred – Monty Python's The Meaning of Life

        [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk&w=640&h=390]

        August 29, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          he said "fit" a mold, not "fill" a mold...

          August 29, 2014 at 6:00 pm |
        • Science Works

          oops maybe this will fit the mold between austin's ears ?

          http://www.alternet.org/belief/5-reasons-suspect-jesus-never-existed

          August 30, 2014 at 12:39 pm |
    • observer

      tnfreethinker,

      Amen.

      August 29, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
    • LaBella

      She's found her moneymaking niche.

      August 29, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
      • kudlak

        I don't watch her show, but is she some kind of straw man "atheist" who disagrees with ... atheists?

        August 29, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
        • niknakk

          She is a hateful republican who claims to be an atheist.
          Don't read anything she writes unless you want to get a headache.

          August 30, 2014 at 3:24 pm |
        • LaBella

          And she wants very, very badly to be a believer. She has stated this.
          I think it would not be very good for her particular schtick, however. So, she self identifies as an atheist.

          August 30, 2014 at 4:06 pm |
        • kudlak

          So, she's as much an atheist as Lee Strobel claims to have been, gotcha!

          September 1, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      it's all very contrived. Cupp and her ilk are just CNN trying to be more like FOX News in a vain attempt at getting FOX News ratings.

      What a shame ... CNN was once the guiding light ... now it's a tabloid.

      August 29, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
      • LaBella

        I agree completely.

        August 30, 2014 at 4:07 pm |
  6. Doris

    I don't like always being the bearer of bad news, so here are some other recent news items from ChristianHeadlines.com,

    Florida School District Replaces Football Chaplains with "Life Coaches"

    (8/27), "Orange County Public Schools in Florida have changed a longstanding traditionof allowing local pastors to volunteer their time as high school football chaplains. [..] The changes are in response to threats of legal action from the Freedom From ReligionFoundation (FFRF). "

    http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/florida-school-district-replaces-football-chaplains-with-life-coaches.html

    Also, (8/28), "Two public elementary schools in Texas have covered dedication plaques that referenced God with duct tape after receiving a complaint for the Freedom FromReligion Foundation (FFRF). The Midlothian Independent School District confirmed that the plaques had been covered temporarily and will eventually be replaced with dedication plaques that do not reference religion. "

    http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/texas-school-district-covers-dedication-plaques-referencing-god-with-duct-tape.html

    Also, (8/28), "Some California Catholics now face a dilemma between standing strong on their faith and having health insurance that goes against their religious beliefs. In recent days, Gov. Jerry Brown has mandated coverage for abortions in insurance policies for two Catholic universities."

    http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/california-catholic-colleges-forced-to-provide-abortion-coverage.html

    August 29, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
  7. Doris

    In Other News, from ChristianHeadlines.com,

    Seventh-Day Adventist Church Facing Lawsuit for Appointing Pedophile as Youth Leader

    (8/28), "The Seventh-Day Adventist Church is facing a $13.5 million lawsuit for allegedly appointing a known pedophile to a youth group leader position. Two men have said they were se.xually abused by the youth leader while involved with the “Pathfinder” group in the 1970s."

    http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/seventh-day-adventist-church-facing-lawsuit-for-appointing-pedophile-as-youth-leader.html

    August 29, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      "Youth", "Church", "pedophile" seem to go together. At least the terms are often heard together. There's a conclusion one might come to.

      August 29, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        I believe that for a long time many parents who noticed their young boys not being attracted to girls tended to push them towards the priesthood saying things like "They were reserved for God" and some such nonsense all while teaching them how they will burn and be tortured if they ever gave in to their same gender attraction which can cause a stunted or abnormal s3xual maturity leaving many young men tragically locked in a same gender attraction for other young men that were not allowed to mature naturaly as most he.tro relationships do as a person goes though puberty and has their first crushes and go on dates. This is why there is a misconception that gay is synonymous with pedophile. Instead these boys were locked in their home to read the bible 24/7 to "excise" their demons and when they learned how to smile and put on a blank expression and claim they no longer have those desires, they are ready for the priesthood which sets them up in a small town and then turns over the towns young boys to them for "counsel". What ever could go wrong? The $7 billion paid to date by the Catholic Church to the families of the abused is testament to what went wrong.

        August 29, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
    • niknakk

      Well Doris, it is because the rules, like those 10 they always talk about only apply to the rest of us, not them.
      I am sure pesos are well represented in the Christians here.

      Just watch to Catch a Predator, almost to a T the perps they catch are republican white males, which make up the backbone of the repub party and the evangelical base as well.

      August 29, 2014 at 2:06 pm |
      • niknakk

        Sorry, not pesos, but pedos.
        As in pedophiles, which seem to be in higher percentages in christians then in the general population.

        August 29, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • Alias

          I'm still not sure if it is a higher percentage of bible believers, or if they are just the only ones with the moral standards that allow them to cover it up when it happens again and again and again .....

          August 29, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          your original comment was likely more accurate if you were colloquially using "pesos" to refer to hispanics... but that would be pretty racist...

          August 29, 2014 at 6:03 pm |
    • haime52

      Guidelines now prevail that state no one who has abused or even ever been abused may be a leader or be involved in Pathfinders, at all. The shame is on those who are responsible and should not be viewed as an indictment against the whole denomination. I fear most denomination have had problems and none are totally immune.
      For some of the other commenters – Are you saying unequivocally, that there are no atheist pedophiles? That deviancy is only relegated to people of faith, somehow?

      August 30, 2014 at 4:22 pm |
  8. Rynomite

    So where ya'll gonna head when CNN finally shuts all the comments down and commits web page suicide?

    August 29, 2014 at 1:31 pm |
    • Alias

      Scary thought.
      I may to go 'outside' if that trend catches on.

      August 29, 2014 at 1:33 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      http://ffrf.org/index.php
      https://www.au.org/

      August 29, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      http://www.virtualstapler.com/

      August 29, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
      • Doris

        Now we're getting somewhere. Maybe I can finally find a decent virtual copier somewhere. So many problems with jamming and collating.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Did you say "Jamming" ?
          http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/scissors/scissorfaq.html

          August 29, 2014 at 2:54 pm |
      • tallulah131

        You really can find anything on the internet.

        August 29, 2014 at 3:07 pm |
    • Reality

      What needs to be said about religious beliefs has been said and rehashed over and over again. It is obvious that those brainwashed in their religions cannot be deprogrammed so maybe it is time to close this blog and start anew with another called The Search for the Truth with the main topics being prepped by the clerics of the major religions presenting the "truth" about their theologies and history?

      August 29, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      Quora

      August 29, 2014 at 2:16 pm |
    • tallulah131

      I will never grow weary of cat videos.

      August 29, 2014 at 3:08 pm |
      • Doris

        lol – agreed.

        August 29, 2014 at 3:50 pm |
    • Science Works

      http://ncse.com/blog – education.

      August 29, 2014 at 3:14 pm |
  9. Dyslexic doG

    Teaching children religion is child abuse, but this is why religion is best described as a "virus". It has evolved to be ruthless at infecting new hosts.

    August 29, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
    • workingcopy12

      And the amazing thing is that, notwithstanding your daily vitriol, God loved you enough to send his Son to pay the price for your sin. And now, your continued vitriol in 5....4....3....2....1....

      August 29, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
      • bostontola

        What about teaching children Hinduism and all of its Gods?

        August 29, 2014 at 1:16 pm |
      • Alias

        So, an all-knowing, all-powerful god had to sacrifice his son. If he hadn't, he would not have been able to forgive us for a sin Adam committed and he couldn't judge us the way he wanted to when we died.
        Is that the sacrifice story you are talking about?

        August 29, 2014 at 1:16 pm |
      • Rynomite

        Yes. Yahweh loved us enough to to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save us from himself.

        Luckily none of it has the least bit of evidence supporting it.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:17 pm |
        • sealchan

          Perhaps this is what any parent must do to make room for his/her children to grow up.

          August 29, 2014 at 6:04 pm |
      • realbuckyball

        If there is a "price for sin" then that means the structure of Reality is "fixed" and we, as well as all the gods, are subject to it, and inalterably embedded in a system ovewr which no one, not even the gods, have dominion. You really need to think about the nonsense you spout, before you assert such drivel.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:23 pm |
      • Alias

        Oh, sorry, you wanted 'vitrol'.
        we don't need no stinking vitrol, we use logic and reasoning.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:26 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        workingcopy ... your name containing the word "copy" is very appropriate considering Christianity copied many of its major characters from previous deities, like jesus copied from mithra and horus and attis ... and your 10 commandments are copied from the pre-dating Code of Hammurabi ... and your dates of easter and Christmas and others are copied from pagan festivals .... it's a shame that the bible writers didn't even try to be original.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        and me pointing out the infantile foolishness of your cult is not vitriol.

        It's a cult defense mechanism but your feigned persecution will not deter me from speaking the truth.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:29 pm |
      • kudlak

        workingcopy12
        You may find the criticism bitter and even cruel, but that only serves to demonstrate that the truth hurts, as they say.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          au contraire kudlak the truth will set you free.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:46 pm |
        • kudlak

          And I was set free once I realized the truth and became an atheist, my friend. There is no good reason to believe that God is actually real. I've been engaged in conversations like this for many decades. If you've actually got something that I haven't heard before, now's your chance.

          Dazzle me!

          August 29, 2014 at 4:11 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

          August 29, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
        • gruphy

          Kudlak are you brave enough to convince yourself that God loves you? If you can then you will go the next step in realising the Truth.

          August 30, 2014 at 3:12 am |
        • kudlak

          Robert Brown
          Can you prove that they will actually be saved from something, or do you have to just trust that these ancient guys knew what they were talking about?

          September 1, 2014 at 12:30 pm |
        • kudlak

          gruphy
          Why not convince myself that I've lived past lives, or that aliens are communicating with me through brain implants, or fairies live in the woods behind by home, or that my home is haunted?

          Convincing yourself of something doesn't make it the Truth, correct?

          September 1, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Truth requires EVIDENCE..... evidence for any god? NONE.

          September 2, 2014 at 11:35 am |
      • colin31714

        Well, not to pile on, Workingcopy, but that really is a silly belief. The creator of the Universe HAD to murder his son (albeit temporarily) or he couldn't forgive us from the original sin of a couple we now all know never existed.

        Christianity really is a silly superst.ition.

        August 29, 2014 at 3:36 pm |
        • believerfred

          colin
          Your error is that your concept of God is your own and not the concept of those who wrote the Bible or believed in God. If you want to establish a case against God you should at a minimum argue against God as known and presented.

          "The creator of the Universe HAD to murder his son (albeit temporarily)"
          =>God does not need to do anything
          =>murder is the wrong choice of words as Jesus gave himself for others.

          "or he couldn't forgive us from the original sin"
          =>There were two trees in the Garden. One was the tree of good and evil while the other was the tree of life (eternity in Christ). Forgiveness existed before original sin. Christ existed before creation. Darkness was reality before God said let there be light thus creation itself is simply redemption from darkness.

          "a couple we now all know never existed"
          =>No, we ALL do not know that is certain.
          =>certainly at some point we all know there existed a male and female that had offspring.
          =>Adam and Eve could be representative first Chosen ones, representative first couple or Could have been physical beings of some sort we do not know and it does not change anything. The first couple reveal what happened to the image of God on man and the relationship between God and man.

          August 29, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
        • sealchan

          It may be silly to believe in it literally, like a history textbook, but it is not silly to believe it as metaphoric of the experience of life.

          August 29, 2014 at 6:08 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          "Your error is that your concept of God is your own and not the concept of those who wrote the Bible or believed in God. If you want to establish a case against God you should at a minimum argue against God as known and presented."

          - Well, since we know that until Isaiah insisted they only worship one deity, the Hebrews believed in many gods, I guess you don't have a chlue what you're on about. They were mono-lateralist polytheists. "Thou shalt have no other gods before before me" would have been unnecessary if they only believed in one. The many many who had a hand in assembling the texts of the Bible had many ideas. Yahweh had a wife who was worshipped in Jerusalem, Dan, Shilo, and Beth-el, (proven by Archaeology). So I suspect YOU have no clue what you're actually even tal;king about.

          August 29, 2014 at 6:57 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          seal
          "...but it is not silly to believe it as metaphoric of the experience of life."

          The same could be said of any fable and if actual facts are not required, I think the myths of say the Greeks, Norse, etc. are better models – where competing whims of powerful beings explain the capricious nature of our lives as compared to the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, benevolent god of the bible where the inconsistencies are so obvious.

          August 29, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • sealchan

          Santa

          It may be that we have a better appreciation of Greek, etc...because these stories/myths do not come with the baggage of literalist propaganda and restriction from discussion in public education. But I have found that the deepest value of all these is shared equally by stories from the Bible. Only if we can tune out the nonsense. Another reason why, as a believer, I like to nurture my inner athiest.

          August 29, 2014 at 7:36 pm |
      • guidedans

        Keep fighting the good fight, brother.

        August 30, 2014 at 2:38 am |
        • Science Works

          But guidedans and fred too – just wondering if you would look in the mirror while posting and let me know – it is universal !

          Universal 'Anger Face': How It Evolved

          http://www.sciencedaily.com/

          August 30, 2014 at 7:57 pm |
    • guidedans

      Dyslexic Dog,

      You are wrong. God is good and the Bible is His inspired word. You are wrong about a lot of things in life, but your flawed beliefs about God and Christ will lead you to a very bad place. You have a choice. You can keep on believing what ever you want and trusting yourself over everything else. This path will lead to death. Alternatively, you can trust in Christ and submit to His law, and enjoy eternal fellowship with your creator.

      You are wrong and this error will have an immense cost. The worst part is that you are so proud of your own understanding of the universe that you will most likely ignore this. Please don't ignore this. Come to Christ and leave your old life behind.

      August 30, 2014 at 2:28 am |
      • tallulah131

        Your warnings will bear weight when you can prove that your god actually exists, dan. So far, there's not a single shred of evidence to back your claims.

        Even if you did have evidence, I don't have it in me to worship a brutal bronze-age god who condones slavery and human sacrifice, and I certainly don't want to spend eternity with pathetic toadies like yourself who would worship such a creature.

        August 30, 2014 at 2:50 am |
        • niknakk

          Raman to that!

          August 31, 2014 at 7:48 am |
        • evidencenot

          EXACTLY!!!

          September 2, 2014 at 11:37 am |
  10. colin31714

    Oh my creationist friends, proof of evolution is all around you. Now, before you declare me “stupid,” “evil” or part of a worldwide conspiracy to deny the truth of your “six days and a talking snake” theory of life on Earth, please take five minutes to read this.

    Theo, it will specifically address your dog question. In short, a dog is an evolved wolf.

    The classic definition of a species is that two members of the same species can breed and produce fertile offspring, but cannot mate with members of a different species. A human of any race can mate with a human of any other race, but none of us can mate with a chimpanzee, for example. So, all humans are in the same species, but we are all a different species to chimpanzees. Easy stuff.

    Indeed, it is often easy to tell that two organisms are of different species just by looking at them. Compare, for example, a dog to a horse. Where it gets a little complex, however, is where you have two organisms that look very different, but are of the same species, or two different species that look very similar. Dogs are a great example of both. Compare a lighter-coated German Shepherd to the wolf. They look very similar, but are of a different species (or sub-species, depending on the definition one uses). Likewise, a Great Dane looks very different to a Corgi, but they are of the same species, Canis lupis familiaris, the domestic dog.

    Why are Great Danes and Corgis considered to be the same species (along with German Shepherds) but wolves and German Shepherds not? For the same reason as humans. Great Danes, German Shepherds and Corgis can and will mate and produce fertile offspring, but none of them will mate with a wolf (absent human intervention). However, and this is where evolution kicks in, all breeds of dog alive today descended from wolves. In fact, it is likely that they all descended, ultimately, from a small pack of wolves that were domesticated in the Middle East some 10,000 years ago. Some research suggests Manchuria as the location, but I digress.

    What happened was that humans noticed that certain, less aggressive wolves were handy to have around. They ate pests and garbage and alerted the camp when predators lurked nearby. So, humans began to intentionally feed and try to tame them. The tamer, less aggressive wolves were less afraid of human interaction and less likely to harm their human hosts. They, therefore, received more attention, food and protection, which gave them a breeding advantage, and they passed on this favorable trait, call it “tameness,” to their offspring.

    These tamer offspring were constantly chosen (probably unknowingly) for care and support and the wilder, more aggressive members of the litter discarded, perhaps for biting or avoiding humans. After thousands of years of inadvertent selection for “tameness” the camp wolves started to become dependent on their human hosts and to even look different to their still wild ancestors. They lost the extreme aggressiveness that helped them in the wild, became less streamlined and tooled for the kill and contained less adrenaline, a principal hormone that causes aggression. In other words, over many generations, they became, in a sense, fat, dumb and happy. Doggie dough-boys. Girlie-men compared to their wild cousins, still red of fang and claw.

    These first domestic dogs were so popular with humans that their “use” spread and humans all over the globe – Australian Aboriginals, New Zealand Maoris and other Polynesians, Egyptians, Greeks and Romans – all began to use dogs. Then something astounding happened. Humans actually noticed that, if there was a specific trait you liked about your, say male dog, you could breed it with a female with the same trait and the offspring would inherit that trait. If, for example, a hunter-gatherer only ever allowed the fastest male dogs to breed with the fastest female dogs, the litter they produced would be slightly faster than if either parent had randomly mated with a partner dog. The humans could repeat this process, generation after generation, allowing only the fastest members of the litters to breed. After many years of such selective breeding, the resultant dogs would differ so much in body shape, leg length and, perhaps, lung capacity to their ancestor as to be considered a separate breed.

    No one set of offspring would differ greatly from its parents, but it will differ a little more from its grandparents, and even a little more from its great-grandparents etc., until we go all the way back to the original wolf, which will be quite different in appearance.

    Bang – dog breeding was born. Humans selected for speed, resulting in the Greyhound, smelling and tracking ability (Bloodhounds) ability to herd sheep (Collies and Australian Shepherds) appearance (Dalmatians and Pomeranians) size (Chihuahuas and Great Danes) and a host of other traits.

    As with most human activities, as our knowledge of evolution and genetics increased, dog breeding improved and exploded in the 1900s. There are now 600 or so breeds of dog, all of which descendent from the original wolf. Many breeds of dog alive today evolved over the past few decades and did not even exist as late as 1900. But, every last domestic dog, from the Teacup Chihuahua in Paris Hilton’s purse to the Great Danes of European car advertisements, are the end result of selective breeding down different paths from the original wolf.

    How any person can look at a Chihuahua beside a Great Dane and deny evolution is beyond me. They obviously accept that bone length and density can change, size of organs can change, skin color can change, size, shape and acuity of the senses can change, and ability to interbreed can change. Ant that is over a few thousand years!! Over a more extended period, foxes, wild African dogs, dingoes and jackels all evolved from a more primitive ancestor.

    Most breeds of dog do not (and likely cannot) breed with wolves for a variety of reasons, including allopatric and/or human induced separation and mating rituals. Not only that, but put almost any domestic dog in the wild and it would not survive a month. A wolf is much more likely to eat a tiny Shih Tzu than bonk it. They are separate species. In the struggle for life, the domestic dog species originated through means of selection as a favored race from the original wolf.

    If this last sentence sounds slightly familiar to you, that is because it is. It is essentially the full ti.tle of Charles Darwin’s seminal work: “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”. Now, in the dog example I gave you, humans were acting as the selective agent, selecting which dogs would breed and which wouldn’t. Now take humans out of the equation and parachute in a purely natural factor, such as a predator. Imagine if, instead of dogs, we are dealing with zebras on an African savanna. In this case, in lieu of humans, the predators – hyenas, lions and wild dogs – will be the agent (blindly, unintentionally) doing the selective breeding. They will tend to kill and eat the weaker, slower zebras, allowing the faster, or better camouflaged individuals to preferentially survive, breed and pass on their advantageous traits to their children.

    So there you have it, my Bible-cuddling friends. Evolution in motion. A romping, rollicking, salivating, slightly smelly bundle of proof. Undeniable; living in every suburb, licking our faces, fetching our sticks and messing on our sidewalks. Macro-evolution. A well recorded, understood, DNA mapped and uncontroversial case of the evolution of one species – Canis lupus lupus, the Eurasian wolf, into another, Canis lupus familiaris, the domestic dog.

    There are many, many others examples of evolution all around us by the way. Even the most cursory of research into any branch of horticulture or animal husbandry quickly reveals that the size, variety, health, longevity and resistance to disease of most of our domesticated plants and animals were the thing of dreams as recently as 100 years ago. Indeed, biotech companies like Monsanto would quickly fall behind the market if they did not spend millions each year on Darwinian selective breeding programs. Why do you think horse breeders spend tens of thousands of dollars to have their mare mate with the winner of the Kentucky Derby?

    Wheat is another great example, as are gra.pes. The species of wheat that we in the West use for bread only developed in the last few thousand years as a result of two instances of sympatric speciation (different to selective breeding, but an agent of evolution none the less). Likewise, the various Shiraz, Char.donnay and Pinot Noir gra.pes we enjoy today, in the form of wine, were all developed and perfected in the last 100 years or so.

    So, Adam or Eve, the next time you kneel down in your church and take your weekly dose of the body and blood of your dead Greco-Roman Jewish hippie-God, you might like to reflect on the fact that you are actually eating proof of evolution and washing it down with proof of evolution.

    “Body of Darwin?”

    Amen!

    August 29, 2014 at 11:53 am |
    • austin929

      the building blocks of creation on whatever time scale doesn't matter. time doesn't matter. that's why history is being repeated because the spiritual war is constantly lost through evil.

      and excessive devotion to knowledge.........or falsehood. ..you have to ask yourself "what emotions did Adam feel " when the devil was attacking him, and told him God was wrong. And that he would live, and have extra knowledge/ power. and eat of the everlasting life tree? and the all knowledge tree?

      what was adam feeling? and eve? and then they did it. well, God still came after them. they were hiding from God.

      And God changed his mind, and said...........this is what i'm going to do.....to keep you going and keep you near to His holiness and perfection. Even though Adam totally rejected and rebelled from God's perfection and love. Was it love before Adam sinned?

      and that devil, do you think maybe he was invisible? and Adam simply could silently hear the devil tempting him, and even feel it in his chest, the yearning and desire? to eat what God said not to.

      August 29, 2014 at 12:31 pm |
      • austin929

        God's word is a perfected beauty when He delivers it. I didn't appreciate it at all before it was manifested.

        August 29, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
      • Alias

        Did you just post "And God changed his mind, and said..........."?
        Bad troll, bad. You just gave yourself away.

        August 29, 2014 at 12:38 pm |
      • bostontola

        Austin,
        Why do you assume that people have an excessive devotion to knowledge?

        I weigh hypotheses based on the evidence. I don't regard scientific evidence as all powerful. It is what it is. There is a lot of scientific evidence, libraries full of it. Some may have errors, but there is a lot. I weigh that against the assertions and subjective evidence of all the religions (and there are a lot of conflicting assertions from the various religions). No devotion to the knowledge at all is required to weigh the evidence.

        August 29, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
        • austin929

          true.......I know you are a moderate and I believe you. But in an article like Colins.......where its loaded with emotion, you can only really express that emotion when you aren't neutral. hes not neutral to the POSSIBILITY of the resurrection. he is emotionally on the other side.

          and colin I didn't read the whole article and I will so I may be incorrect about you.......but for the point here

          is the emotional part of when someone who you love, whos good, whos loving, why if they offended you do we throw good things out? like the possibilities and being anti resurrection.

          or all the emotionally overboard people who followed hitler, or misteach replacement theology, who put emotional emphasis on issues with no value to them ..........

          maybe God should be so overwhelming with love, and so important, that if he did something to really offend you ............it would hurt worse than anything could ever hurt emotionally.

          that emotional response is to someone who is real. and you are hurt. We are all that hurt.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:04 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        "And God changed his mind ..."

        LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

        August 29, 2014 at 12:58 pm |
        • bostontola

          How can an omniscient being that exists outside time change its mind?

          August 29, 2014 at 1:04 pm |
        • Alias

          Hey! Hey!! Hey!!!!
          I posted it first! How 'bout a little respect here?
          On the other hand – If we gave Confucius credit for all the wise things jesus repeated, it wouldn't make much of a book/religion.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
        • austin929

          Genesis 2:17 ►

          but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

          I think in every relationship the thing God shows us in response to us letting us down is we need as individuals, for the sake of survival, to be able to hurt. and we need a mechanism to get through it. God dealt with a set back, one that had to have the law................you can't eat of it. well you did. and I said you would die from it ..................and you have died to perfection.

          we choose , to die from perfection. That is a flat out fact. And that act, hurts God terribly, who has pure emotions, pure wisdom, pure reasoning. He really can not stand it.

          The devil has a disinformation religion. in revelations it says he will deceive the world no more. you can look forward to that!

          August 29, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          No need to travel to China. Paul was from Tarsus, a hotbed of Mithraism. Mithras was born of a virgin, with only a number of shepherds present. Mithras was known as "the Way," "the Truth," "the Light," "the Life," "the Word," "the Son of God" and "the Good Shepherd." He was pictured carrying a lamb on his shoulders. Sunday was sacred and Known as "the Lord's Day" centuries before Jesus. On December 25th, there were magnificent celebrations with bells, candles, gifts, hymns; and "communion" was observed by the followers. From Dec 25th until the spring equinox (Estra or Easter) were the "40 days" which later became Christian Lent. Mithras was finally placed in a rock tomb called "Petra." After three days he was removed with giant celebrations, festival and great joy. Petra, the sacred rock,centuries later would become Peter, the mythological foundations of the Christian church. Matthew 16:18 "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church." Christian mythology is quite obviously saturated with Mithraism. The followers of Mithras believed that there would be a "day of judgment" when non-believers would perish and believers would live in a heaven or "paradise"(a Persian word) forever and ever. All of these formulas were absorbed centuries later by the Christian cult into their rituals. Paul, who never knew Jesus, took all of these mythological themes and attached them to Jesus, building his Christ mythology. He took Jesus out of Judaism and borrowed the Mithraic Sun-day instead of the Hebrew Sabbath. All of the Mithraic holy days were used to fill in this mythological construct: Christmas, Easter, Lent, and the spring resurrection festival. The Christian "Mass" was, and is, the old sacrament of the Mithraic "taurobolia" (a divine sacrifice with saving effects of blood).

          August 29, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • austin929

          And the devil is real. He came from the creation in heaven. can you imagine coming from there? I think he knows what is up.

          but you don't.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
        • G to the T

          "How can an omniscient being that exists outside time change its mind?"

          Austin – I can't help but notice you seem to be avoiding answering this question. I'd really like to hear your explanation.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:08 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          The devil is not real because you say so. As anyone who has read Dr. Elaine Pagel's book "The Origins of Satan", humans in Babylon cooked up the idea, and there is noty a shred of evidence for fallen angels. In fact it makes no sense. In order for them to "fall" time had to exist BEFORE your god created the universe, and as far as we know, space-time arose at the Big Bang. So answer the question Snotty. How does a timeless deity "do" anything, and have that not be an end-point to the eternal prior and eternal after. It refutes "infinite". A god who acts, or "sends" or gets mad, or does anything, NEEDS (space)time. A god who needs anything is no god.

          August 29, 2014 at 7:02 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Hey Bucky...... god is beyond our understanding....... don't ya just love it! LOL!!!

          September 2, 2014 at 11:40 am |
    • kudlak

      You can lead a Creationist to data and facts, but you can't make them give up the idea that they know better than the experts.

      August 29, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
      • Alias

        You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think?
        Wait .... I meant
        You can show facts and logic to theists, and watch them scatter like roaches from the light.

        August 29, 2014 at 12:47 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          You can lead an evangelical to logic, but you can't make him think...

          August 29, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • austin929

          there are many people who play the fool. and you can go from there and have restoration to the only God there is.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
        • Alias

          A fool and their money will soon part.
          Every week when the collection plate is passed, for example.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:50 pm |
        • G to the T

          "to the only God there is."

          Allegedly. My studies have shown it's most likely that jewish beliefs went from polytheism to monalitry to monotheism. "God" evolved as the people did.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:53 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "it's most likely that jewish beliefs went from polytheism to monalitry to monotheism"

          and then the Christians took it back to polytheism with their trinity... a perfect circle...

          You're such an inspiration for the ways
          That I'll never ever choose to be
          Oh so many ways for me to show you
          How the savior has abandoned you
          'expletive' your God
          Your Lord and your Christ
          He did this
          Took all you had and
          Left you this way
          Still you pray, you never stray
          Never taste of the fruit
          You never thought to question why

          It's not like you killed someone
          It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
          Praise the one who left you
          Broken down and paralyzed
          He did it all for you
          He did it all for you

          Oh so many many ways for me to show you
          How your dogma has abandoned you
          Pray to your Christ, to your god
          Never taste of the fruit
          Never stray, never break
          Never-choke on a lie
          Even though he's the one who did this to you
          You never thought to question why

          Not like you killed someone
          It's Not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side
          Talk to Jesus Christ
          As if he knows the reasons why
          He did it all for you
          Did it all for you
          He did it all for you..

          – "Judith" A Perfect Circle

          August 29, 2014 at 4:21 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Austin = "there are many people who play the fool"

          Yes and they are called Christians.

          September 2, 2014 at 11:41 am |
    • kudlak

      austin
      God told them "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

      The snake said “You will not certainly die, for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

      Just after they ate the fruit verse 7 says Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

      What's more, they didn't die.

      Seems to me that the snake told the complete truth, while God didn't.

      August 29, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
      • Alias

        AND on the eighth day, god created metaphors.
        Or they evolved naturally from the knowledge Adam and Eve finally found

        August 29, 2014 at 12:50 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          there are indeed good metaphors and bad metaphors... to bad they didn't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad puns...i'll bet they were upset when they found those flaming swords guardin their eden... or when they lost the bet with God after just one throw of the pair of dice.... they tried to get along outside the garden without violence but just weren't...able...

          August 29, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
      • austin929

        no they did die man. and so do you know, and you would not have. the kingdom should have been here what it will be in heaven.

        the curse of death was established death REIGNED. but Christ has reversed this and declared His resurrection to be a promise of that life. just like moses coming up out of bondage, with Israel rising up out of bondage, through the blood of the lamb, you are baptized by the holy spirit into eternal life.

        it is that simple . RISE UP IN YOUR SPIRIT INTO THIS LIGHT.

        HE IS HERE!

        let the truth over come your doubt. The truth is around you and can be revealed within you . You simply receive the invitation to let Him give the truth to you.

        Trust in Him He is the way, right there. not here. but there with you.

        August 29, 2014 at 2:38 pm |
        • evidencenot

          repeatedly reciting mythology doesn't make it true.

          September 2, 2014 at 11:43 am |
      • kudlak

        austin929
        If I tell someone "You'll die if you eat that" isn't it implied that their death will be imminent, and not after many hundreds of years?

        If you place your trust in something blindly before examining it's actual worth, how unbiased will be your assessment of that worth?

        August 29, 2014 at 3:55 pm |
    • sanddudian

      Colin, you would enjoy Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond if you haven't already read it. You mentioned zebras and Diamond explains why they have never been domesticated. Zebras are really hard to lasso and basically zebras are just real nasty animals that man basically gave up on. Lots of good stuff in the book including religion.

      August 29, 2014 at 1:25 pm |
    • Rynomite

      "So, Adam or Eve, the next time you kneel down in your church and take your weekly dose of the body and blood of your dead Greco-Roman Jewish hippie-God, you might like to reflect on the fact that you are actually eating proof of evolution and washing it down with proof of evolution."

      Unless of course you are Catholic. Then you are just a cannibal.

      August 29, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
    • Rynomite

      "The classic definition of a species is that two members of the same species can breed and produce fertile offspring, but cannot mate with members of a different species."

      There are certainly some southerners who have tried....

      August 29, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
    • austin929

      God created monkeys. And then...........after that . God created man, and man was the best and last.

      August 29, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
      • kudlak

        Technically speaking, woman was created last, and I may be willing to concede that they are, indeed, the best!

        August 29, 2014 at 3:48 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Genesis shows that progress was stalled for a bit. Adam was alone for a the time. What he was up to, no one knows. In that regard, do believers know if Adam had a penis before Eve was created?

          August 29, 2014 at 3:52 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Ninevah 13:7

          August 29, 2014 at 4:03 pm |
        • kudlak

          "Ninevah 13:7" ?

          Sorry, I can't find that one in any of my bibles.

          September 1, 2014 at 9:55 am |
  11. Doris

    In Other News, from ChristianHeadlines.com,

    Court Overturns Hate Crime Convictions in Amish Beard Cutting Case

    (8/28), "The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati has overturned the former hate-crime convictions of 16 Amish men who cut the hair and beards of other Amish community members in 2011.

    The beard cutting was headed by Ohio Amish community leader Sam Mullet. Mullet, 69, received 15 years in prison for cutting the hair and beards of fellow Amish men, a symbol of manhood and maturity for the group. Other members of Mullet’s family received prison sentences of one to seven years.

    The court has now ruled that the act was motivated by personal conflicts, not religion."

    http://www.christianheadlines.com/blog/court-overturns-hate-crime-convictions-in-amish-beard-cutting-case.html

    August 29, 2014 at 11:09 am |
    • colin31714

      Great!! If ever there was a case of the government overacting in its prosecution of people, this was it. Stupid prosecution, stupid application of the hate crime laws.

      August 29, 2014 at 11:55 am |
  12. Alias

    Okay Theo, lie your way around this:
    Were trees created before humans?
    •Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
    vs.

    •Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."

    August 29, 2014 at 10:43 am |
    • jhg45

      where is the problem here? He seeded the earth, planted man there and then planted (gave) him a garden, (Eden?) placed him there and then where is theo to solve this since I see no problem.

      August 29, 2014 at 11:01 am |
      • bostontola

        In Genesis 1, plants were created before man. In Genesis 2, man is created before plants.

        August 29, 2014 at 11:09 am |
        • jhg45

          tell me you are not serious. please, what am I missing?

          August 29, 2014 at 11:12 am |
        • joey3467

          They are two completely different accounts of creation. If one of them is true then the other can't be. Seems pretty simple.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:18 am |
        • bostontola

          'What am I missing?'

          Reading comprehension perhaps? Read the referenced passages. They indicate a different timeline. You will no doubt interpret the words of Genesis 2 to make it fit, you'll say Genesis 2 is talking about human cultivated plants only. It always takes mental contortion artists to make these passages work.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:21 am |
        • jhg45

          someone does not comprehend "sarcasm" I know what the Bible teaches, God created Earth, planted seeds of everything needed, created man, placed him in the garden to take care of, (trees already created) sorry I got involved with such childishness. later

          August 29, 2014 at 11:42 am |
        • bostontola

          Later.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:47 am |
        • halero 9001

          "sorry I got involved with such childishness"

          Have hope, jhg45. You may yet have more time to detach yourself from the childish conflicted myth of Genesis.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:54 am |
        • kevinite

          Okay,
          There was the general creeation of trees for the planet then man was created, then a garden was established eastward in region called Eden in which man was placed into that garden. Then once man was placed in that garden then there were specific trees of beauty and bearing fruit were created specifically in that garden. Yeah, massive confusion there. After all, one could only see that as referring to the earth as a whole as opposed to just specifically then newly establised Garden of Eden. There was certainly no change of geograpic focus here.

          August 29, 2014 at 12:17 pm |
        • bostontola

          kevin,
          Thanks for providing those interpretive mental contortions I said would come.

          August 29, 2014 at 12:22 pm |
        • kevinite

          Actually bostonola, I didn't say anything about man cultifying all ready established trees as being what it meant. I specifically referred to God creating specific in newly established garden. It's where you keep thinking that it is only referring to the earth as a whole you are contorting you POV to fit.

          August 29, 2014 at 12:27 pm |
        • bostontola

          kevin,
          There are virtually infinite interpretations and mental contortions. There are and have been full time scholars working on these interpretations. The problem is, they have come up with many different interpretations. Yours is but one of many. No reason to think there is any truth behind them. There is a lot of reason to think they are false. The scientific record of the development of life conflicts with both accounts in the bible.

          The bible is not consistent with itself, and the bible is not consistent with objective science. Not a good track record for the bible account.

          August 29, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
        • kevinite

          bostonla,

          What's new about that revelation? It just reaffirms my point that it is all a matter of belief. You cannot prove one way or another. That there needs to be supplemental sources to clarify discrepancies in the Bible and that the only way to really know for sure that if there is a God who does not want to be made known but would rather have us develop our faith in that deity that we have to find out for ourselves on a personal first-hand basis. To search, to study, to practice the teachings and even to pray about those searches in order to find out. The task may seem overwhelming, but if there is a God who has a specific plan for us which involves ourselves our happiness and well being and that it involves putting in our effort and making our own decisions, I do believe it is worth the personal search and should we happen to fail to find it in this life that we will still have that chance after this life.

          August 29, 2014 at 12:50 pm |
        • bostontola

          Kevin,
          I agree there is no proof, but there is lots of objective evidence. Belief in the bible REQUIRES interpretations.

          Belief that the biblical God doesn't exist requires no such interpretations, it is fully consistent with all objective evidence.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
        • kevinite

          So, how does the scientific evidence, which makes no such conclusions one way or another whether there is a God who does not want to be made known in the first place, even make one to even have any conclusion regarding the existence of such a deity and not be regarded as one's own interpretation or belief?

          August 29, 2014 at 1:07 pm |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          boston: " Belief in the bible REQUIRES interpretations. "

          this is the main part i love about religion; who's interpretation? lmfao

          that one i always funny.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:10 pm |
        • kevinite

          Yes wasp, the ever popular laugh at other peoples interpretations, but your interpretation is all right, even though that too is only an interpretation and no more provable than anyone else's.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:14 pm |
        • bostontola

          Kevin,
          Please read my comment again, I made no such claim that science concludes there is no God, my comment led with there is no proof. Science makes hypotheses and tests them and re validates the results. That becomes objective evidence. No conclusions. If your personal hypothesis conflicts with objective evidence, scholars are required to 'interpret' the hypothesis, or you can deny the objective evidence ( like young earth creationists). The hypothesis that the biblical God doesn't exist doesn't conflict with any objective evidence, no scholars are required.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:23 pm |
        • kevinite

          Bostonola,

          Neither is there any evidence that conflicts with the idea that there is a God who does not want to be made known in the first place, but rather have us develop our own faith in that deity. That is why it is all a matter of belief or interpretation.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:33 pm |
        • observer

          kevinite,

          The best parents are usually those who are always around their children correcting them immediately after they have done something wrong rather than not be seen.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:38 pm |
        • bostontola

          Kevin,
          I didn't say there is objective evidence in conflict with God in general. I said that the literal biblical God is in conflict with objective evidence and therefore either you spend energy interpreting the bible (and then it is no longer unique truth), or you deny the objective evidence (like young earth creationists). You pick.

          The hypothesis that the literal biblical God is not real requires no such choice, it is in harmony with all objective evidence. That hypothesis that the literal biblical God is not real is itself not part of science, it is consistent with all scientific evidence.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:43 pm |
        • kevinite

          observer,

          And yet those parents also let their children make the decisions for themselves, and let them experience the consequences of those choices.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
        • kevinite

          bostonola,

          You realize that when referring to the God of the Bible that you are referring to a God who does not want to be made known in the first place, and that you really don't have any evidence that contradicts the God of the Bible.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • kevinite

          Anyhoo, it's been fun but I have to go to work, so toodles.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:51 pm |
        • bostontola

          Kevin,
          You talk about the biblical God's intentions as though you could even know such a thing as a fact.

          The literal story of creation in the bible is in deep conflict with objective evidence. The story of the sun stopping in the sky conflicts with science, the global flood from the Noah story conflicts with objective evidence, the list goes on.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:55 pm |
        • bostontola

          Take care Kevin.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • observer

          kevinite,

          They let their children make decisions AFTER they have made their presence constantly known and rendered immediate discipline when needed. Without the physical presence of a guide, children do not have the background needed to make good decisions.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      Parallel accounts of creation ... wow, are you thick or what?

      August 29, 2014 at 11:08 am |
      • jhg45

        maybe this is why so many do not understand or believe the Bible

        August 29, 2014 at 11:11 am |
        • bostontola

          We agree on something, that is a start.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:13 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        More like contradictions! It's amazing how you twist it to try to make it fit. Read your bible some more or better yet go to evilbible.org and look at the vast array of contradictions within your favorite fairy tale book...it might actually open that closed mind of yours.

        August 29, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
  13. realbuckyball

    The science of quantum information is clearly proving evolution wrong and yet delusional god-deniers continue to waste time on a foolish fairy tale.

    LMFAO
    Just more proof Snooty has no clue what Evolution (or science for that matter) is all about. Quantum Mechanics has nothing to say about Evolution, and Snotty can provide no reference to an article about that, or any support for this assertion. Snotty has no education in science, (at all) as he has demonstrated, over and over. Every major academic center in the entire world teaches Evolution, (which is proved by DNA) ... the very same academic centers/scientists which teach and develop the very medical treatments Snotty and all hypocrite Evolution deniers would access, would all access, would they need it.

    August 29, 2014 at 10:14 am |
    • Alias

      There are some 'christian scientists' with an agenda.
      They want to discredit evolution through any means possible because they think it is turning people away from religion. Those are the dishonest types scot likes to find and site as proof.

      August 29, 2014 at 10:19 am |
    • awanderingscot

      http://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-achieve-reliable-quantum-teleportation-for-the-first-time/

      – your purely material world is crumbling and you need to keep up with real science sparky.

      August 29, 2014 at 10:24 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Quantum therefore Jesus.

        Quantum Christ would be a great band name.

        August 29, 2014 at 10:36 am |
        • Alias

          Even odds that they would play banjos

          August 29, 2014 at 10:39 am |
        • awanderingscot

          Abiogenesis magic?

          August 29, 2014 at 10:41 am |
        • evidencenot

          Bible = mythology

          September 2, 2014 at 11:56 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        "Perceptual reality is the wisdom of the mechanics of quantum energy"

        – Chopra-bot
        http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/

        August 29, 2014 at 10:39 am |
        • Dyslexic doG

          woo woo!

          August 29, 2014 at 10:44 am |
      • bostontola

        "– your purely material world is crumbling and you need to keep up with real science sparky."

        Classic fallacy:
        If the world is purely materialistic, then there can be no God.
        The world is not purely materialistic, therefor God.
        It's the 'denying the antecedent' fallacy.

        So your contention is not supported even if the premise were true. But even the premise is false. Quantum teleportation says nothing about materialism.

        Is energy material?

        Your lack of logic and your absence of scientific understanding is pervasive. Stick to scripture, you are more comfortable there.

        August 29, 2014 at 10:50 am |
        • awanderingscot

          The world is not purely material as atheists/materialists/evolutionists/marxists would have it, that's the point. Try meditating on some of these things, it might help you come out of your narrow-mindedness.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:11 am |
        • bostontola

          How can you make a point on fallacy and misplaced science? Quantum teleportation says nothing about materialism, and if there is more than a material world, that would not mean your a God is real. Meditate on that.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:25 am |
  14. Alias

    Has anyone seen God?
    •John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
    •Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
    •John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
    •I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
    vs.

    •Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
    •Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
    •Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
    •Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

    August 29, 2014 at 10:00 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      God wears a Guy Fawkes mask. You see him, but you don't see him.

      August 29, 2014 at 10:05 am |
      • Alias

        That's a better explanation than te christians will be able to come up with.

        August 29, 2014 at 10:08 am |
    • Theo Phileo

      Exactly. No one can see God unless He appears to man in some veiled form, such as the incarnation, or through a Christophany.

      August 29, 2014 at 10:10 am |
      • Alias

        So you admit there are errors.
        Good start to the weekend.
        Now if you can move on tto next step, wondering which parts are accurate ....

        August 29, 2014 at 10:13 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          What? Evil Kneivel couldn't make THAT leap... Dr. Sam Beckett couldn't even make that leap.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:16 am |
        • Alias

          I posted clear examples of people seeing god face to face.
          What part of that has you confused?

          August 29, 2014 at 10:21 am |
        • kudlak

          Theo
          Kinda like how the real "wizard" of OZ was just some little fellow hiding behind the curtain, who is to say that God's veil doesn't actually hide his weaknesses?

          August 29, 2014 at 4:26 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      The term "see" is obviously being used as a metaphor in some of those passages, but not all of them.
      You have to take it in context – the word "see" appears hundreds of times in the Bible and each instance connotes a unique spiritual Truth.
      So nobody actually "sees" God unless, of course, they see Him.
      See?

      August 29, 2014 at 10:19 am |
      • Alias

        "I see" said the blink catholic to the deaf protestant?

        August 29, 2014 at 10:49 am |
    • kudlak

      John couldn't have believed in the trinity then, because he supposedly looked at Jesus while he was alive.

      August 29, 2014 at 10:20 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      and my favorite:

      "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)

      August 29, 2014 at 10:27 am |
    • awanderingscot

      No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. – John 1:18, NKJV

      – We see manifestations or epiphanies of God. God was veiled in the Lord Jesus Christ when He walked this earth, but those whose spirit was quickened saw Him.

      August 29, 2014 at 10:51 am |
      • Dyslexic doG

        sir, you are a fraud.

        August 29, 2014 at 10:55 am |
      • Alias

        So the last 4 verses I posted om the topic are wrong?

        August 29, 2014 at 10:57 am |
        • awanderingscot

          Not wrong at all, those who are not spiritually dead do in fact see God metaphorically speaking. Others have seen epiphanies.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:04 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Nobody actually sees God unless, of course, they see Him.
          See?

          "So see and don’t see, hear and don’t hear,
          Know and don’t know and cry"

          August 29, 2014 at 11:16 am |
        • Doris

          You have inspired me, Scotty. I shall become the founder of MAED (Mothers Against Epiphany Driving).

          August 29, 2014 at 11:20 am |
        • kudlak

          scot
          Others have "seen" aliens, and ghosts, and mermaids too. Are we to suppose that nobody is ever mistaken in what they think they've experienced?

          August 29, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
  15. awanderingscot

    'while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.' – 1 Corinthians 4:18, NKJV

    – foolish man believes only the things he can see are real however modern science is proving that the spiritual realm exists. The science of quantum information is clearly proving evolution wrong and yet delusional god-deniers continue to waste time on a foolish fairy tale.

    August 29, 2014 at 9:13 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Through the quantum fluctuations of chronometric tachyon fields, one can surmise that at its core, the Universe is composed of Heinsenberg pulse waves interacting on the quantum level.
      Of course, these gravimetric oscillations can only be observed indirectly, but by noting their influence on the sub-atomic quantum flanging, the ferfanational matrices of gestalt knoncleotides proves, beyond a doubt, that the entire fabric of reality as we perceive it is nothing more than the passing whimsy of quantum midichlorians.
      Quantum quantum quantum.
      Quantum.

      Contrary to what you seem to believe, quantum physics is not proving the existence of the astral plane, asgard, heaven, oz, star trekkie evil parallel dimensions, the elysian fields, or olympus or any other magical, invisible realm.
      There is still no evidence whatsoever for spirits, ghosts, demons, ifrits, angels, gods, thetans or any other magical, invisible enti/ties.

      August 29, 2014 at 9:47 am |
      • Theo Phileo

        That was a cool TV show back in the 90's with Scott Bekula. But I think he was way better in Star Trek: Enterprise.

        August 29, 2014 at 9:58 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          I never understood Ziggy's interface.
          How did Al get any information from those multi-coloured, flashing lights?

          August 29, 2014 at 10:00 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Probably through the same manner that Darwin obtained information by looking at finches.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:06 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          By docu/menting physiological differences indicative of adaption due to different enviromental niches and food sources?
          I think Al's cell phone sized Ziggy module was more about tracking changes in the time-stream than about biological analysis.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:14 am |
        • realbuckyball

          Evolution, in 2014, is in no way still dependent on anything Darwin said or did. The Theory of Evolution has been developed and supported by countless other studies and scientists. Religionists who *need* to live in the past demonstrate only their ignorance and emotional weakness by clinging to the delusion that Evolution is not the best explanation we have now.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:17 am |
        • Science Works

          Hey Theo from news around the planet – to the north of the US – Canada.

          500,000,000-year-old fossils discovered
          http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/08/22/dnt-fossils-unknown-species-discovered.cbc.html

          Here is an easy one for you Theo – maybe ?

          Human beings as we know them today developed from earlier species of animals. True or false?
          http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canadians-science-literacy-ranks-1st-among-35-countries-1.2749413

          Oh and Theo the myth eh ?

          Published on Apr 16, 2012
          Cardinal Pell, the highest figure in the Catholic Church in Australia, admits that the idea of Adam & Eve is a mythological one....

          August 29, 2014 at 10:17 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Oh, I thought it was because both are science fiction.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:17 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Theo
          No – that the finches' beaks have adapted to their environments is perfectly evident.
          Fact, not fiction.

          Geez – I thought even the most steadfast Creationist has at least had to admit that adaptation is a real phenomenon.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:21 am |
        • Science Works

          come on Theo – true or false ?

          Or the cat did not make it over the moon and went splat instead ?

          August 29, 2014 at 10:30 am |
        • awanderingscot

          Those variant genes already exist, no case for evolution at all. Adaptation yes, real science. Evolution no, fake science.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:55 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          I thought even the most steadfast Creationist has at least had to admit that adaptation is a real phenomenon.
          ------------
          Adaptation is of course an observable, God-given trait. Amongst animals who do not possess the ability to adapt their environment to themselves (such as humans) animals adapt to their environment.

          This doesn't mean however, that one animal of a certain kind can change so dramatically that it changes to another kind.

          And before you try to say that science doesn't recognize "kinds," tell me, what kind of animal is a dog?

          August 29, 2014 at 11:36 am |
        • joey3467

          A dog is a dog.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:43 am |
        • bostontola

          Theo,
          Animals alive today change form as grand as different kinds in one lifetime. Aquatic tad poles with gills change into frogs with lungs, aquatic arthropods with gills change into flying insects with wings. Evolution of species and new kinds is falling off a log compared to that.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • kudlak

          Theo
          A dog is a member of the Canidae family of carnivores which also includes wolves, foxes, jackals, coyotes and a few others including some extinct, dog-like animals as well. Their evolution can be traced back some 50 million years. Dogs never saw the dinosaurs.

          August 29, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          "Aquatic tad poles with gills change into frogs with lungs"

          – It's still a frog, not an octopus or a bluegill. Please stop with your silly myth.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:44 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          "Their evolution can be traced back some 50 million years"

          – Wrong, they were dogs back "then" too and you can't prove otherwise. Show us the transitional form. You can't

          August 29, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
        • bostontola

          scot-bot programmed response

          August 29, 2014 at 2:04 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          There were no dogs on the Flintstones. They kept various sorts of reptiles instead. Their cat was a mammal, I believe.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • kudlak

          awanderingscot
          Sure I can prove otherwise. Dog-like fossils only go back 50 million years. Earlier than that in the fossil record certain creatures become less dog-like, enough not to call them exactly dog-like anymore. Go back far enough and a dog wouldn't even pop into your mind while looking at it.

          It's like what you would see if you had a photo of yourself taken every day of your life. As you flip backwards through your album you would not be able see much change between photos taken during the same month, or even year, and you would probably not be able to precisely pinpoint the photo that defines when you stopped being a child and became a man. Similarly, someone who last saw you as a toddler might not recognize you as an adult simply because they never watched you grow up, and change.

          What you are imagining transitional fossils to show are some kind of half-dog/half-something else, kinda like a mermaid, a centaur, an angel or something else from mythology.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • kudlak

          Tom
          The Flintstones had some kind of saber-toothed "cat", but some in that family aren't as closely related to modern cats as others.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        http://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-achieve-reliable-quantum-teleportation-for-the-first-time/

        August 29, 2014 at 10:19 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          WOW!
          Therefore the Bible must be the literal, inerrant Word of God!
          Remind which Bible passage explains Heisenberg's uncertainty principle...

          August 29, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • awanderingscot

          whomever has an observation of God's creation needs to explain it; not the other way around. God: potter Man: clay. You need to understand causality.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:58 am |
        • kudlak

          awanderingscot
          Yet, you might argue that man did create false gods out of clay, as it where. So, we have a principle of causality where humans create gods for themselves, which leaves it up to you to demonstrate how your god is somehow different from all the rest.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:50 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Can you create a tree? Can you create an animal? Look at the natural world around you and tell me which of those things you can create. Nothing. You cannot create anything. But God can and He did. Why oh foolish man do you insist on denying your maker?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • observer

          awanderingscot,

          There is ZERO PROOF that God exists. If there was an intelligent design for the universe, there are an INFINITE NUMBER of possible explanations including Zeus. Why don't you thank Zeus?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • kudlak

          awanderingscot
          You just keep making baseless assertions.

          Why should anyone take you on just your word?

          August 29, 2014 at 3:43 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      it would be a pretty basic strategy for the snake oil salesmen who wrote the bible to try and cover themselves by putting in lines like "do not believe he who says this book is false for they are servants of the devil" and "he who questions god is wrong sayeth the lord" and "any man who doubts the word of god as written in this book is a fool and will be punished in the afterlife" and do not believe in what you can see but believe in what you can't see, and you must have faith even though there is no evidence because god will punish you if you do not believe with no evidence ... and so on, and so on, and so on ...

      it's so obvious and transparent to all but the infantile slave minds of the religious!

      August 29, 2014 at 10:08 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Damn skippy.
        What are those first 4 Commandments again?

        August 29, 2014 at 10:16 am |
        • Dyslexic doG

          no other gods before me.
          shall not worship any other image
          shall not misuse the name of the Lord
          remember the Sabbath day

          ???

          August 29, 2014 at 10:23 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          1) Don't think about other religions
          2) Don't look at other religions
          3) Don't talk smack about your religion
          4) Take a day off to appease Me with rituals

          August 29, 2014 at 10:28 am |
        • Dyslexic doG

          then they copied the rest from the Code of Hammurabi.

          It makes me laugh so, that Christianity is not even original. Just stories and characters from earlier religions, morphed over time by incorporating pagan religions ... until we get the conglomerate we see today

          August 29, 2014 at 10:57 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          What's especially funny is that insofar as God is concerned, non-Jewish people don't need to follow all of the 10 Commandments.
          After The Flood, God gave new commandments for the "descendants of Noah" which would be all of humanity and not just the "chosen people".
          Those 7 are:
          No idolatry
          No murder
          No theft
          No fornication
          No blasphemy
          No eating meat from living creatures
          Man must setup our own justice system / courts.

          August 29, 2014 at 11:12 am |
        • kudlak

          Doc
          Do you have a reference for those seven?

          I remember that God expressly told Noah and his descendants that they were never to eat any flesh that still had blood in it, which creates a problem for Christians because this part of kosher actually predates Moses' Law which they say Jesus did away with.

          August 29, 2014 at 12:12 pm |
    • bostontola

      'while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.' – 1 Corinthians 4:18, NKJV

      So your contention is, a person is a fool if they believe real things and don't believe imaginary things. Ok.

      These passages could be straight out of Alice in Wonderland only not as lighthearted:
      The Rose: Just what species or, shall we say, genus are you, my dear?
      Alice: Well, I guess you would call me... genus, humanus... Alice.
      Daisy: Ever see an alice with a blossom like that?
      Orchid: Come to think of it, did you ever see an alice?
      Daisy: Yes, and did you notice her petals? What a peculiar color.
      Orchid: [sniffing Alice's hair] And no fragrance.
      Daisy: [chuckling, as she lifts up one side of Alice's dress] And just look at those stems.
      The Rose: [as Alice slaps the Daisy's leaves away] Rather scrawny, I'd say.
      Bud: I think she's pretty.
      The Rose: Quiet, bud.

      August 29, 2014 at 10:22 am |
      • awanderingscot

        Well what can i say further but 'some guys got it .. and some guys don't'.

        August 29, 2014 at 11:54 am |
        • bostontola

          Why would God create some people that can't get it?

          August 29, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Why are there immature and rebellious people who won't accept accountability for their actions? Why do these same people always want to blame other people for their own condition? There is a very good reason some will not go to heaven; they don't want to get along with God and His other children.

          “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” – John 3:18-21, NKJV

          August 29, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
        • bostontola

          I don't know why some people are that way, cheating works sometimes I suppose. That doesn't answer my question, why would a God create some people with the capability of getting it, and others that don't? Why create many people that don't even get the opportunity to be introduced to God? Pretty flawed system.

          August 29, 2014 at 1:12 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Take yourself for example. Right now you assert that it's somehow God's fault and not yours. He gave you free will, how you choose to use it is up to you. You rebel against Him and then turn around and refuse to accept accountability to Him. This is how a spoiled adolescent behaves.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
        • observer

          awanderingscot

          Spoiled Christians don't take responsibility for what they have done, but pass the buck to let Jesus take the punishment.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Everyone is or will be afforded the opportunity.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:22 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Not true Observer. Christians are also accountable to God and disciplined accordingly.

          'for whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.' – Hebrews 12:6, NKJV

          August 29, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          An abuser, in other words?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          I don't consider myself to have been abused and i got disciplined when i needed it. In fact i am thankful for it. Are you saying that a father who disciplines his children doesn't also love them?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
        • observer

          awanderingscot,

          Supposedly Jesus died for YOUR SINS so that we don't have to KILL people for the LONG LIST of reasons in the Old Testament. HUGE change.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:38 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          A loving father who beats his children is at least confused, perhaps deranged. I know it's common, though. My father "got physical" often enough until one day, during one of his sessions, we both noticed that I had a knife in my hand. We're not close.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
        • bostontola

          scot,
          Those are your assumptions. I don't say there is any fault. It is a fact that some people don't 'get' God, and many more don't 'get' your God. No fault, just fact. Maybe you project your thinking process on others, that may be why you assume fault was implied.

          You also assume I rebel against God. You are wrong. Do you rebel against Zeus? If so, you rebel against God more than I do. I merely look at the various evidence and react accordingly. As new evidence comes in, my beliefs can change.

          You on the other hand close your eyes to any evidence contrary to your beliefs. That is the behavior of a very scared child.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:47 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          @Tom
          I did not say "beat", i said disciplined.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:38 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          You're right scot.

          "And scourges every son whom He receives"

          I should have said "scourge":

          Definition (Oxford): Whip (someone) as a punishment
          Origin: Middle English: shortening of Old French escorge (noun), escorgier (verb), from Latin ex- 'thoroughly' + corrigia 'thong, whip'.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          "You on the other hand close your eyes to any evidence contrary to your beliefs."

          – This is a common refrain heard from atheists when they cannot substantiate belief. They cannot validate belief expressed by believers because they are spiritually dead and as you know the dead cannot see, hear, smell, or feel and as such will not be able to confirm, (they are in a sense the same as animals, lacking a live spirit). There is no evidence contrary to my belief in God, no one has been able to show any.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:55 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Tom
          It's a colloquialism and not be taken literally.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:59 pm |
        • observer

          awanderingscot,

          If the Bible is a totally accurate portrayal of "God", there are plenty of errors and contradictions in it to argue if God exists.

          August 29, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
  16. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    I know Colin posed a similar question, but I'm curious. If God were to cease to exist today at, say, 2:12 PM Eastern, how would you know?

    August 29, 2014 at 8:11 am |
    • rogerthat2014

      Let me guess. Faith?

      August 29, 2014 at 8:18 am |
    • Theo Phileo

      Just to play along with your thought experiment...
      The universe and everything in it would also cease to exist.

      Colossians 1:17 – He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

      August 29, 2014 at 8:33 am |
      • Theo Phileo

        Jesus sustains the universe, maintaining the power and balance necessary to life's existence and continuity.

        Hebrews 1:3 – And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power...

        August 29, 2014 at 8:38 am |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        That's intriguing, Theo. Are there mathematical descrptions, underpinnings, for the theory of Jesus?

        August 29, 2014 at 9:15 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Maybe, I don't know. But since math doesn't create truth, nor necessarily define it since mathematics can even be used to describe fiction (such as "Mathematical Modeling of Zombies") – Truth is defined by "what is." And for that, I believe what aligns with observable reality. And what was observed was the divinity of Jesus, and that knowledge has been accurately passed down to us.

          August 29, 2014 at 9:35 am |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          If you have received it accurately, then can you confirm it in any way?

          August 29, 2014 at 10:03 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Confirm what? That we have received it accurately? Yes, through extensive textual criticism.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:05 am |
        • Dyslexic doG

          but Theo ... your "extensive textual criticism" is just people in your cult writing about what other people in your cult have already written. Is it really such a surprise that they would agree with the original cult literature? Seriously!

          August 29, 2014 at 10:16 am |
        • kudlak

          Theo
          I'm observing reality right now, but I can't see God anywhere. Can you point him out for me?

          August 29, 2014 at 10:26 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      if he ceased to exist then your prayers would not be answered ... oh ... hang on a minute ... ?

      August 29, 2014 at 10:10 am |
    • sanddudian

      and what would change?

      August 29, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
  17. ausphor

    Austin
    So jesus is your j-erk off buddy, you should enter a monastery, they accept even encourage that sort of behaviour.

    August 29, 2014 at 7:44 am |
    • ausphor

      Arrghh, double post.

      August 29, 2014 at 7:53 am |
    • Theo Phileo

      Watch the crude nature of your post. There are ladies present.

      August 29, 2014 at 8:49 am |
      • Alias

        Yes, and women are never crude.
        You need to learn to deal with reality on so many levels.

        August 29, 2014 at 10:04 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Women can be crude. Ladies are not.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:12 am |
        • Alias

          not in public.
          Sooner or later you will be right about something.
          I just hope I don't die of old age before it happens.

          August 29, 2014 at 10:15 am |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Women fart, ladies do not...

          August 29, 2014 at 2:04 pm |
        • austin929

          discretion is a virtue.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • ausphor

          Theo
          Free will, genitalia, s&x drive=a whole lot of masturb@tion by both s&xes. If people who have masturb@ted are not allowes into your mythical havea the loint will be empty. Theo try and get a grip on reality, you are living in a delusional bubble. Yes, Theo even ladies do it, laddies more often, but whose counting.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • austin929

          I am a hypocrite .

          The disciples were getting on Christ's nerves.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • Alias

          Ladies explode from gas pressure?
          All of them?
          Or just their butts?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:29 pm |
        • ausphor

          Unless you have been a shepherd for 100 years like J. A. Campbell/me, you have no idea of the power of flatulence.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:22 pm |
  18. Reality

    Time for an early morning wake-up:

    "The Two Universal Sects

    They all err—Moslems, Jews,
    Christians, and Zoroastrians:

    Humanity follows two world-wide sects:

    One, man intelligent without religion,

    The second, religious without intellect. "

    Al-Ma'arri
    , born AD 973 /, died AD 1058 / .

    Al-Ma’arri was a blind Arab philosopher, poet and writer.[1][2] He was a controversial rationalist of his time, attacking the dogmas of religion and rejecting the claim that Islam possessed any monopoly on truth."

    Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/resalat-al-ghufran#ixzz1lI6DuZmZ and http://www.humanistictexts.org/al_ma'arri.htm

    August 29, 2014 at 4:33 am |
    • niknakk

      Here is my usual wake up,
      A cup of strong coffee, NPR, and thankful I don't live in a religious theocracy.

      It is just another beautiful day without god(s).

      August 29, 2014 at 7:29 am |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        Other people's gods are all around you percolating in their imaginations, yearning to infect impressionable minds.

        August 29, 2014 at 8:22 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          If you commit one of the atheistic mortal sins, like believing a proposition without proof, Galapagor, the man-ape overseer of the Atheist Underworld, may leave your essence as a trilobite deep in the fossil layer.
          All the transitional fossils buried in the Earth are nothing more than the transmogrified remains of sinful atheists.
          I can appease Him for you, but the ceremony is elaborate and expensive since He only heeds those using the most high-tech, scientifical equipment.
          Normally a Galapagor appeasement ceremony costs upwards of $10,000 – but if you act now, I'll cut that in half!
          That's right – you can avoid an unpleasant afterlife for the low, low cost of $5000.
          Cash only and in small bills.

          Praise be unto Galapagor!

          August 29, 2014 at 9:59 am |
  19. austin929

    I hope Islam by Shira law punks out and destroys every christian in the Mideast. just so you Christians learn a lesson not to try and dominate Atheists the same way in the US...

    @kirstenaagadfly

    this here is an offensive statement. you do know you are condoning murder? because that's what's going on. Imperialism and Zionism are a couple different fads that do not jive with scripture the way the united stats or Israel might portray as a state or nation.

    Paul did not preach a literal kingdom on earth. and Christ told us a followers, that our kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. Salvation is not a boundary line with a king And the reality of the holy spirit is the endwelling of something supernatural.

    its not a religion. but it does start with hearing the word of faith.

    The main reason I object to your statement, is although I have no regional interenst in the middle east, Christ has called his kingdom throughout the earth. while the Arab's may not want a british colony installed, Jesus has prepared the hearts of many for salvation................and you and I are not to judge who that is or is not. That would showing favoritism.

    Favoritism is a sin.

    August 29, 2014 at 12:55 am |
    • gruphy

      The Christians in the ME are Arabs and call God Allah.

      August 29, 2014 at 1:14 am |
    • gruphy

      Christianity is a religion if you claim its the only way to heaven. If u know that Christ never said that then its your lifestyle.

      August 29, 2014 at 1:20 am |
      • awanderingscot

        Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." – John 14:6, NKJV

        August 29, 2014 at 12:29 pm |
        • joey3467

          Why do you keep quoting the Bible as if it actually proves anything?

          August 29, 2014 at 12:35 pm |
        • kudlak

          A museum guide can say basically the same thing about entry into his exhibits, but that doesn't make him divine.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
        And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. – John 14: 2-3, NKJV

        August 29, 2014 at 12:39 pm |
        • kudlak

          Well, that's just good hospitality, but notice that he didn't mention there being any dungeons reserved for those not inclined to accept his invitation. I could understand someone calling a God who saves his believers from death "loving", but to go out of your way to punish those who don't seems rather pric.kish to me.

          August 29, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
      • gruphy

        Scotty he did not say Christianity is the only way. He said he is the Way.

        August 29, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
        • austin929

          you can mark down a tally for me that I know that He is the Way.. He does confirm that.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:22 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Is there any other faith that worships Christ?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Mormons?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • kudlak

          scot
          Do you need to worship Jesus in order to find your way, or will simply following his teachings be sufficient?

          August 29, 2014 at 3:16 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Yes Kudlak, i was created to worship Him. Does that offend you?

          August 29, 2014 at 4:40 pm |
        • gruphy

          Kudlak
          following His teachings is worshipping Him NOT necessarily being a Christian. If you are convinced that God loves you or behave the same way that someone who is thus convinced will you are following the Way. It is NOT a religious something.

          August 29, 2014 at 4:40 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          I don't believe they do worship Christ.

          August 29, 2014 at 4:41 pm |
        • gruphy

          Scotty
          I am sure if you read Romans Ch. 2 you will realise that Paul also believed that it is possible to believe God without being a Christian or Jew. The obedience of the moral law is what makes us spiritual Christians. Christ came to teach us that if we believe God loves us as Himself with all His Life (aka have faith) then we will be free from the fears of this life which cause us to commit immorality. It does work too.

          August 29, 2014 at 4:50 pm |
        • gruphy

          Chihuahuas and Great Danes are breeds of the same species. Bears cannot become dogs or vice versa through breeding. Evolution is an extrapolation of the Law of Variation which produces breeds.

          August 29, 2014 at 4:55 pm |
        • kudlak

          awanderingscot
          It doesn't offend me that you believe that of yourself, but it offends me when Christians say that I must somehow know this, yet deny it, simply because that was Paul's opinion in one of his letters. That's a very silly argument to make to someone who doesn't believe your book.

          September 1, 2014 at 9:45 am |
        • kudlak

          gruphy
          Actually, worshipping Jesus as a god is a religious thing, where simply following his teachings could be just a philosophical choice.

          I really don't see where in the Gospels Jesus advocated the creation of a new religion based upon worshipping him. Only in John, the last of the canonical gospels written and the one favoured by certain gnostics, do we see Jesus' message shift from the coming Kingdom to himself. The other three all have him bringing a new interpretation of Judaism to fellow Jews. They have him just being a rabbi, in other words.

          September 1, 2014 at 9:51 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Austin: I don't agree with you on much but please know that not all Atheists (in fact none I know of) would wish that type of persecution on any person due to belief. Our goal as a species in general should be to seek peace and statements such as that type of pay-back do nothing to help.
      If anything the conflict in the Middle East should be a wake-up call...it does show where religion/extremism can cause great divide.

      August 29, 2014 at 8:12 am |
      • austin929

        that's good. I dont' want the persecution for you either. but the problem is the devil does. hes the one doing it.

        that's the devils whole thing. this is so monumentally huge. because the amount of spiritual persecution he can supernaturally give you is insurmountable . There is ONE , who goes before you who has the authority to justify everything about you.

        And He has done that. Rest in that truth. it will never turn you down. Its completed for you. His blood cries out for you in love. And your life is the blood in you.

        August 29, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • austin929

          You are God's flesh and blood. You are blood of the king of the universe. and THIS is why you search for God internally in your soul, and not in your brain. The space you have at all times, is subject to his sovereignty.

          He is the ruler of the chemical compounds .......and like Enoch said...........he brings the weather out of their store houses.

          Enoch had great faith. that comment is not mystical. God brings forth all of life and the universe.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • observer

          austin929

          "THIS is why you search for God internally in your soul, and not in your brain."

          Why are Christians and the Bible so opposed to using INTELLIGENCE?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Ebola virus is life, and part of the Universe, as well. It must be God's.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Did you know that attributing God's work to Satan or demons is unpardonable?

          August 29, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          After this, "that’s good. I dont’ want the persecution for you either", the rest is falling on deaf ears...it just sounds a little too crazy and unrealistic.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
        • G to the T

          "THIS is why you search for God internally in your soul, and not in your brain."

          Sorry Austin – for me, "Soul" , like "Mind" is only a placeholder. I have yet to find any reason to believe that either are anything other than the workings of my brain.

          August 29, 2014 at 2:58 pm |
        • gruphy

          Moses' Tabernacle was the functional architecture of the human brain. What makes u think the Bible abhors intelligent thought?

          August 29, 2014 at 9:32 pm |
  20. kristinagadfly

    My last post got deleted on joy

    August 29, 2014 at 12:32 am |
    • Doris

      You do have to be careful I notice when posting about j.o.y.o.u.s things. Try fooling WordPress with periods.
      Someone posted a bunch of stuff about J.o.y to the World just before last Christmas..... gone within seconds of the post....

      August 29, 2014 at 1:51 am |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        What is the problem with "joy"?

        August 29, 2014 at 8:19 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.