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August 22nd, 2014
07:00 AM ET

Why liberals are more tolerant of atheists

Opinion by Chris Stedman, special to CNN

(CNN) Conservative atheist and television pundit S.E. Cupp has come out swinging against progressive atheists.

In a clip (see above) for CNN’s “Crossfire,” she argues that conservative atheists are “better” than liberal nonbelievers. What’s more, Cupp says, those on the right respect and tolerate atheists more than liberals do.

She’s wrong, and here are three reasons why.

Fact: Atheists are still political outcasts.

“It seems like there’s this idea perpetuated by atheists that atheists are somehow disenfranchised or left out of the political process,” Cupp says. “I just don’t find that to be the case.”

Survey data contradict Cupp.

For instance, a 2014 Pew Research study found that Americans are less likely to vote for an atheist presidential candidate than any other survey category—even if they share that candidate’s political views.

Faring better than atheists: candidates who have engaged in extramarital affairs and those with zero political experience.

And unless she recently had a change of heart, Cupp herself falls in line with the majority of Americans. In 2012 she said, “I would never vote for an atheist president. Ever.”

While atheists are making political inroads, we’re also still on the margins in a number of ways. Cupp concludes the clip by saying, “I think our atheists are better than yours.”

Apparently they’re still not good enough to be president.

Fact: Conservatives are hostile toward atheists.

“There’s another myth: that conservatism is somehow hostile to atheism,” Cupp says. “I’m a conservative atheist (and) I’ve felt very welcomed.”

But Cupp goes beyond arguing that conservatives broadly welcome nontheists—she also argues that liberals are less accepting of atheists.

“I’d go so far as to say conservatism is far more intellectually honest and respectful of atheism than liberalism has been,” she says.

Again, Pew’s surveys suggest otherwise.

While the number of people who say they wouldn't vote for an atheist candidate sits at 70% among Republicans, that number drops to 42% among Democrats. (“Progressive,” “liberal,” and “Democrat” certainly aren’t synonyms, but there is overlap.)

Of course, conservative hostility toward atheists goes beyond voting for a presidential candidate.

Earlier this year, the group American Atheists announced plans to sponsor a table at CPAC, the country’s largest annual gathering of conservatives. But within hours, after a number of conservatives spoke out against their inclusion, they were promptly uninvited.

Many of the most prominent anti-atheist voices—including Sarah Palin, Erick Erickson, Mike Huckabee and Newt Gingrich—are conservative politicians and commentators, and I have yet to hear many other conservatives (Cupp included) condemn their anti-atheist remarks.

On the other hand, a number of political moderates and liberals have welcomed nontheists.

In 2009, for example, President Barack Obama became the first commander in chief to reference nonbelievers in an inaugural address. The next year, his administration became the first to meet with representatives from the atheist community.

Overall, a much larger percentage of the religiously unaffiliated (a category that includes many atheists) identify as liberal than conservative.

In 2012, Pew reported that 61 percent of nonreligious Americans are either Democrat or lean Democrat, while just 27 percent identify as or lean Republican.

If it truly were the case that conservatives are much more “respectful of atheism,” I would expect to see more Republican atheists.

Fact: Most liberals respect religious diversity.

“Conservatives appreciate an intellectual diversity,” Cupp says. “In contrast, on the left it seems as though there is this knee-jerk embrace of what is more like a militant hostility to faith.”

If you’ve been paying attention to Cupp’s arguments so far, this one should be a bit confusing. Which is it? Are liberals hostile toward atheists—or the religious? (Or are liberals just hostile toward everyone?)

But religious diversity is actually significantly greater among Democrats—for example, Pew reported in 2011 that just 11% of Muslims affiliate with Republicans, while 60% identify as or lean Democrat.

By contrast, as much as 74% of GOP voters identify as Christian, according to recent surveys and polls.

Finally, Cupp lifts up self-identified progressive Bill Maher—who has said, among other things, that religious believers have a “neurological disorder”—as an example of liberal intolerance.

I should give credit where it’s due: Cupp is partially right here. Maher’s take on religion is problematic and should be condemned.

But his views certainly aren’t representative of most of the progressive atheists I know. Suggesting that Maher speaks for atheism is like saying Pat Robertson represents all of Christianity.

In the end, I’m not arguing that progressives are perfect. We have plenty of our own issues and aren’t as welcoming of atheists or some believers as we could be.

But to say that we’re less tolerant of religious and nonreligious diversity than conservatives? Well, that’s just hard to believe.

Chris Stedman is Executive Director of the Yale Humanist Community, author of "Faitheist," and atheist columnist for Religion News Service. Follow him on Twitter @ChrisDStedman. The views expressed in this column belong to Stedman. 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Culture wars • Discrimination • Nones • Opinion • Politics • Prejudice

soundoff (3,322 Responses)
  1. Dyslexic doG

    once you make your god omnipotent and omniscient, it becomes very, very hard to explain things that took him by surprise, mistakes he made, emotional reactions he has or things he "had to do", like sending his son to die.

    – colin

    August 27, 2014 at 10:00 am |
    • austin929

      no He didn't have to. people go to heaven that are from the old testament.

      It pleased God that He would put an end to the ritual .,,,,,,,,,,,and that He would be made alive in you to glorify you as well for you to share in His glory, in which He is glorified.

      10
      Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
      He has put Him to grief.
      When You make His soul an offering for sin,
      He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
      And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

      11
      He shall see the labor of His soul,[b] and be satisfied.
      By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
      For He shall bear their iniquities.

      God is Holy , and so the sin of the world wearies Him.........He has looked away. Like any man who needs His own space.....yet when you draw near to Him He is there for you in love.

      Leviticus 17:11 ►

      For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

      23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

      "Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

      In other words, there will never come a time when Jesus' work of intercession will end. This means that all believers in Christ will never again come under the wrath of God, once they are IN Christ (Romans 8:1). God will forever see all believers as being IN Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have become the righteousness of God IN Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Our sins have been separated from us as far as the east is from the west; they have been cast into the sea of God's forgetfulness; and they are gone eternally, having been nailed to the cross of Christ (see Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; and Colossians 2:14) .

      August 27, 2014 at 11:08 pm |
      • evidencenot

        "in other words"....

        God smites women, children and often animals with equal gusto, he seems to equal evil and wrong doing by association, rather than by being guilty of the personal, individual act: "Behold with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." (II Chronicles 21:14-15)

        August 28, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          the women are equally responsible..and as for the children..get rid of parents..you got orphans..duh...God take them to be with him..and you hate that thought?

          August 28, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          BTW This is Gods way of taking the children out of an evil society that mo lested them and used babies to throw in a sacrificial fire......and youhate the thought of God taking these kids out of that? YOu are the sicko if you want the children to remain with the parents so they can se xually exploit them and burn them in the fire

          August 28, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • evidencenot

          The apologist has spoken........ making excuses for god..

          You mean the loving god that murdered babies during the great flood? you know, that fictional story from that book of mythology the bible?

          August 28, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          you hate using resoning skills don't ya..you see everything black and white and then let your brain rot for lack of using reasoning skills (apologia,-making reasoned and logical defenses apologists use reasoning...you hate when people do that?

          August 28, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Read it again... "LORD smite thy people and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods"

          That's pretty much covers EVERYONE........ .... ... more twisted interpretations please...

          August 28, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
  2. Reality

    As this thread comes to a close:

    From my scrapbook of important summaries–

    Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

    • There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

    • There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

    • There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

    • Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.

    • Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.

    • A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sikhism.

    Added details were previously presented.

    August 27, 2014 at 9:25 am |
  3. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Perhaps Pew should have posed several questions on theism.

    Would you vote for someone who
    1)Is certain there is a God and who says he has a personal relationship with it
    2)Believes in a "higher power" that is interested in human affairs
    3)Believes in a "higher power" but makes no claims about it
    4)Truly has no opinion about gods
    5)Believes there are no gods
    6)Argues against the existence of gods

    August 27, 2014 at 9:14 am |
  4. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Those of of us without belief in gods generally look for pleasant conversation. Are anti-theists troubling you, fred?

    August 26, 2014 at 8:59 pm |
    • austin929

      pleasant as in ganging up and sitting there tossing cheap shots around? like bullies.

      August 26, 2014 at 9:06 pm |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        Had a rough day, austin?

        August 26, 2014 at 9:09 pm |
        • austin929

          there is a certain type of spirit that belongs in hell and we are getting a good taste of it in America. I'm personally tired of it I really find it unacceptable.

          such as the mob and mafia sheriffs department here in Lincoln NE who enter peoples homes and murder them . then the cult attorneys clear the villians......

          could not be a more Satanic form of tyranny. The Satanic fragmentation of people property.............is going to turn into a witch hunt.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:16 pm |
        • observer

          austin929,

          So the police, without a warrant, entered the home of a guy with no police record who immediately followed all their instructions and then they murdered him, right?

          August 26, 2014 at 9:22 pm |
        • austin929

          im sorry but those who rationalize killing someone are thriving on cult information.............

          weather the satanic cult is simply a fraternity of sheriffs or a religious faction...............the policy to kill is for people who sing songs about bombs.

          soul enslaved killers....

          August 26, 2014 at 9:31 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          whether ... not weather

          August 26, 2014 at 9:33 pm |
        • observer

          austin929,

          WHY wouldn't you answer my question? Let's get to the TRUTH about what happened.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:34 pm |
        • austin929

          observer...........for you to do your job correctly be prepared to kill someone.........lets train you for that procedure.

          sound like a proper plan? hey we are going to evict someone be prepared to kill them if need be.

          what devils. go to hell .

          August 26, 2014 at 9:34 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          I don't have a handle on who belongs in hell. But I' ve never really believed in hell. Do you think it would be a failure of justice in the universe if everyone just went nil in the end?

          August 26, 2014 at 9:34 pm |
        • austin929

          there are certain spirits of Satanic manifestation........that belong in hell along with those people who bow down to this death worship.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:37 pm |
        • observer

          austin929,

          Why are you SO AFRAID to supply ANY FACTS?

          Until you do, you are just coming across as a babbling SLANDERER. Start acting like an adult if you are going to accuse people of murder. They are also risking their lives to protect INGRATES.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:39 pm |
        • austin929

          observer...........only soul enslaved individuals would justify killing a sixty five year old retarded man............with a clean record..............they went to a fight and killed a retarded person.

          these people are soul enslaved Satanic perpetrators...........and America is bursting at the seams with these types of devils.

          I'll put my parents in that same list of the death cult.. My parents are brain washed goats.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:41 pm |
        • observer

          austin929,

          Please get some professional counseling. Your anger is raging out of control and you CAN get help.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:48 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          How childish to have no better explanation for things than "the devil made them do it", (Satanic). There are no evil flying angels.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:50 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I would actually agree with that...it is childish to say "the devil made me do it" or in case of Adam and Eve "She made me do it" we have to own up to our own actions, there is nothing in the Bible that supports "The devil made me do it" he may tempt us, but we make the choices

          August 27, 2014 at 1:56 am |
        • realbuckyball

          What exactly does "spirits of Satanic manifestation" mean ?

          August 26, 2014 at 9:52 pm |
        • atlantic9

          It means Austin is in more need than ever of some anti-psychotic meds.

          August 26, 2014 at 10:04 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          "I'll put my parents in that same list of the death cult.. My parents are brain washed goats."

          Wow Austin, you hateful miserable person. I understand that not all parents are perfect but for you to publicly defame your own parents is horrible. I feel bad for them for having you as a son, they didn't deserve that disrespect...sometimes something's are better left unsaid but apparently you are clueless and don't care.
          As has been said, you need help!

          August 27, 2014 at 7:00 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          Again, how was Adam to know that it was wrong to disobey God if he only got the knowledge of what's Good and Evil after disobeying him and eating the fruit? God here is like an adult blaming a toddler for stealing a cookie, and making him feel guilty for it even when he grows to adulthood.

          August 27, 2014 at 7:09 am |
        • kermit4jc

          noooo..that's as if you think that's the ONLY time Adam disobeyed God...God handed out the consequences.....Adam knew he had a choice...and what does he do? blame Eve for the problems....he consciously tried to avoid it..thus he knew it was wrong..otherwise, why try to blame someone else if they didn't know it was wrong?

          August 27, 2014 at 9:40 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Lets none of us forget that kermi's interpretation of Gullibles Travels (ty Doris) is the right one and no-one else knows it better than him. Although studying Gullibles Travels is akin to studying Santa-no real substance, just a fairy tale.

          August 27, 2014 at 9:48 am |
        • Doris

          realbudkyball: What exactly does "spirits of Satanic manifestation" mean ?

          I'm still stuck on "soul enslaved". For me, it makes me think of self-imposed belief and enforcement agent such as Sola Scriptura. Unless of course we are talking about someone who will only listen to Aretha Franklin all day.

          kermit: "we have to own up to our own actions"

          Well lookee here – kermit's gettin' all Sartronian up in our grill. Preach it, kermie!

          August 27, 2014 at 9:54 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          Does the actual narrative state that this wasn't the first time Adam disobeyed, or are you just employing your imagination here? People can believe that Jesus visited North America, or that Mohammad was God's last prophet, but neither claim is supported by biblical text, and neither is yours.

          It clearly says that eating the fruit caused their eyes to be "opened" to the knowledge that their nakedness was wrong. If Adam already knew that he had a choice then what magical power did eating the fruit actually have?

          August 27, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          CHOICE itself isn't bad..its what he chose..and he seemed to know already it wasn't good! He blamed eve! as foradam sinning..he is HUMAN..of course he is gong to sin other times..NO onE IS PERFECT! btw he did not sin once...he ate of the fruit..thats sin 1 then he lied and blamed eve..sin #2 I think you need to read the accounts again

          August 27, 2014 at 12:48 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          No, I think that you need to read the account again. Adam was told not to touch the tree, but telling a toddler not to do something doesn't mean that they actually understand that touching it is wrong. If he was magically programmed with the knowledge of what was right and wrong, then the fruit didn't have the properties that God said it had, making him a liar. The text plainly says that it did have the desired affect upon their consciousness, so I don't see how you can argue otherwise. It's a contradiction, pure and simple.

          August 27, 2014 at 6:06 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          YOU read again...what did Adam do after eating of the fruit? he tried to hide himself, then he blamed eve! apparently that tells you he knows..and that he sinned more....I know the account.I taught it to adults not too long ago

          August 27, 2014 at 6:08 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I don't care whether Adam was at fault or not...why should the rest of us suffer for what he did?

          Your god is still an asshat.

          August 27, 2014 at 10:45 pm |
        • austin929

          you aren't going to get held responsible for Adams sin. God allowed us to go on living. And He interveined........He erased the curse of sin.......and it is erased supernaturally through the literal baptism of the Holy Spirit.

          you even get to let Christ...........take on your sin. So you don't get held for Adams sin........or yours.

          And Christ's blood cries out on the mercy seat in heaven.......that you have been declared righteous................and your name is written in the book of life.

          August 27, 2014 at 10:57 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Feeling persecuted Austin? There's a cure for that-pull the bible out of your ass, get off the couch and get an education or in your case seek help. (See my post earlier yesterday on the definition of Delusions of Grandeur...you fit the description well)
        Anyone who uses the word 'retarded' in the 21st century is not worthy of trust or respect. That word is offensive to those who are mentally challenged and horribly disrespectful.
        Although it is nice to see that even kermi doesn't agree with you...seems he Is a slight bit smarter than you after all.

        August 27, 2014 at 5:03 am |
    • believerfred

      Tom, Tom, the Other One
      Get rid of the hyphen in anti theist as that space is reserved for God of the gaps.

      August 27, 2014 at 1:06 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        God of the gaps is your god.
        Don't have an answer or an explanation, GOD DID IT.
        Such a simple-minded view and so lazy!!

        August 27, 2014 at 5:13 am |
        • Dyslexic doG

          infantile slave minds look for nothing outside

          August 27, 2014 at 9:57 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Yeppers...if they did look outside they wouldn't be Christians for long. It's like the blind leading the blind.

          August 27, 2014 at 10:15 am |
        • believerfred

          TruthPrevails1
          "God of the gaps is your god."
          =>No God is much more than we could ever imagine. Even if we disagree on the form and substance of God we can agree that your god is devoid of life. Let's look at the god of your gaps. Tell me about the origin of life. Tell me about the origin of existence. Tell me why existence of our universe has purpose and or meaning.

          "Don't have an answer or an explanation, GOD DID IT."
          =>No that is not how it works. We believe all things that were created are created by God. Only in a very indirect way did God cause a mosquito to bite you.

          "Such a simple-minded view and so lazy!!"
          =>Ha, let me guess, you think da "I don't" know is not lazy?

          August 27, 2014 at 1:44 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          You keep spewing like you're right...you could be wrong...how hard is that to accept?
          And no "I don't know' is not lazy, it is honest...it merely means we don' have the answer yet, nothing more.
          I don't have a god, so your point is moot. You don't have the right to tell other what gives their life meaning and purpose...it's arrogant of you to think you get to JUDGE that or use your belief to do so....it's your belief and it DOES NOT pertain to everyone regardless of how you try to spin it...why is it so hard for you to respect people??
          You proved by your response that yes the God Did It is the answer.

          August 27, 2014 at 1:51 pm |
        • believerfred

          TruthPrevails1
          "You keep spewing like you're right...you could be wrong...how hard is that to accept?"
          =>Let's see Moses, King Solomon and all the Hebrew to the days of Christ are wrong about what you don't know anything about (as you claim not me). Jesus the most important and powerful figure in the Western World in close to 2,000 years is wrong about what you don't know anything about by your own confession. 96% of humanity over recorded history believe in something greater than the physical existence we observe yet you don't know.
          Please explain to me how not knowing reflects greater wisdom than everyone else who actually knew or knows.

          "I don't know' is not lazy, it is honest...it merely means we don' have the answer yet"
          =>Until such a time as you know the answer wisdom dictates you listen to those older and wiser than you are.

          "I don't have a god"
          =>Yes you do. Tell me what happens to you when you die (NOT your organic physical self but you that self you are aware of). Who or what are you primarily dependent upon? A god does not need to be Zeus like as it is anything your core belief is oriented around. Some people are even dependent upon their abuser while others have a dream or a love of money etc.

          "You don't have the right to tell other what gives their life meaning and purpose"
          =>I have not done that yet but it is coming

          " respect people"
          =>You call me a christard then demand respect, babbling buffoon etc. then demand respect. Do you see a pattern here?
          =>Why do you worry so much about being judged or feel the need to accuse me of being judgmental ?
          => The Bible is clear we are not to judge. When I say we are all sinners and all have fallen short that is a judgement from God not me. Now if you do not believe in God you do understand the standard is pure goodness and I doubt you would argue that we all fall short of pure goodness.
          =>your suggestion that I judge you to be less than simply because you are an atheist or agnostic is not accurate.

          August 27, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Wow fred, you're using people from the bible to defend the bible. Mass belief does not equate to fact.
          IT is you judging and using your belief to do so.
          I have not called you a christard in a VERY long time, so that was uncalled for. As for the babbling buffoon...it at least wasn't christard, however if you'd prefer that...
          I don't base my values or morals on things (your god) that can't be proven. You seem to think everyone should and that is where your lack of respect comes in....you don't respect other people, you only wish to keep spewing your belief as if it were fact when it has been shown not to be.

          August 27, 2014 at 3:07 pm |
        • believerfred

          TruthPrevails1
          I do not disrespect persons intentionally. I can respect your right to reject God, the Bible etc. but I am to have a disposition of mourning for lost souls. A major thread in the Bible is Adam gets kicked out for rejecting God, everyone but Noah is living large and doing what they want so the earth is cleansed, Gods own chosen ones deliver Jesus to a brutal cross and the world begins to drift back to state it was in the days of Noah.
          You seem to understand some of my comments to suggest you are wicked and sinful...............oopps my apologies you understand correctly but it was not intended. So, how can I warn you of the perils of rejecting God without being disrespectful or offensive?

          August 27, 2014 at 4:19 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          fred: Let me put it this way..if a Muslim kept pushing their belief into the public square, would you not find it disrespectful? You can warn me all you wish but much like the Muslim preaching to you and it falling on deaf ears (so to speak), the same happens here. Thank you for your concern..if that belief keeps you happy so be it, however it is not my belief.

          August 27, 2014 at 4:28 pm |
  5. believerfred

    AtheistSteve
    "The origin of this 'singularity' is unknown but it seems natural to assume it originated from a region 'outside' the boundaries of our pocket of spacetime."
    =>No it is not natural to assume any other dimensions. The way it works is if you want to propose causation using loop quantum gravity, M-theory or a host of possible quantum fluctuations we first define the landscape so that tensors relative to boundary have measurable amplitude. There is absolutely nothing natural about it since we are dealing in abstract mathematical relationships.

    August 26, 2014 at 8:38 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      The relationship between mathematics and the natural world is such that the natural world usually conforms to the same kind of order. So far, mathematics has not created or compelled anything in the natural world. No one that I know thinks that it can.

      August 26, 2014 at 8:54 pm |
      • believerfred

        Tom, Tom, the Other One
        Can we agree numbers have the same objective existence as God?

        August 26, 2014 at 9:05 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Numbers have utility.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:29 pm |
        • observer

          Numbers have REPRODUCIBLE results 100% of the time.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:32 pm |
        • observer

          believerfred,

          Just because something is in our mind, does not mean that it exists in REALITY. There is no real LOGIC there, just PLAYING with semantics.

          August 27, 2014 at 1:34 am |
        • believerfred

          observer
          Numbers only give consistent results when rules are followed. God gives consistent results when rules are followed. You do not believe Gods promised results nor do you believe Gods rules.
          If you were to treat numbers the way you treat God your math teacher would make life hell for you.

          August 27, 2014 at 4:37 pm |
        • believerfred

          Tom, Tom, the Other One
          "Numbers have utility."
          =>as does belief in God

          August 27, 2014 at 4:39 pm |
      • believerfred

        Tom,Tom, the other one
        Aristotelianism says that numbers exist as concepts. We can't see them in the real world but they still exist because they exist in our minds.
        There is your proof God exists! God exists when he is #1 in your heart.

        August 27, 2014 at 1:23 am |
        • niknakk

          Well then don't the other religions get the same borrameter of truth as your god?
          So Visnu exists because the Hindus all have him number one in their hearts?

          I will bet you say no.

          August 27, 2014 at 7:24 am |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          God does exist, trivially. Even when someone says "God does not exist " an instance of God is referred to – as something that does not exist. However, one thing we can have in a mathematical construct, but apparently not in God is that it be well defined.

          August 27, 2014 at 8:25 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Zero exists...as a concept.

          In reality it is nothing...kinda like you god.

          August 27, 2014 at 9:11 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          fred: You uneducated dolt!! That isn't proof of your imaginary friend!! Where did you get your education-the barnyard?

          August 27, 2014 at 9:32 am |
    • realbuckyball

      "Causation" as a principle is demonstrated ONLY in this universe with spacetime already in place. Saying anything about what is "external" is meaningless as that requires space as a dimension in a "place" other than this universe. As of now, nothing meaningful can be posited about Reality, other than INSIDE this universe. A deity would have had to have "caused" the Principle of Causality, without causation in place already. No matter what anyone attributes to a deity, it's ultimately a reference to a principle we ONLY know from INSIDE this universe, and which cannot, without evidence, be ascribed to any other system. Creation by a deity answers nothing. What (and how) was Causality caused, is the real question.

      August 26, 2014 at 9:13 pm |
      • believerfred

        Even if you are assuming a deterministic position the potential for the effect must exist.
        Quantum mechanics does not invalidate the causal principle if that is what you are suggesting. M-theory would have been impossible if the mathematical abstracts were limited to a euclidean space perspective.

        August 26, 2014 at 9:43 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          Nope. A system which has "a potential for a effect" is just as bad. It's STILL a system in Reality, which assumes a larger Reality (which remains unexplained). It's no better. You're still attempting to say things about which we know nothing. The fundamental nature of Reality has been proven to be non-intuitive. The only thing we are left with is EVIDENCE.

          August 26, 2014 at 10:05 pm |
        • believerfred

          realbuckyball
          Our experience takes place in a temporal construct and time itself is incidental to cause and effect. This is not validation of your position that causality is limited to our current space time. Your suggestion is possible only if we agree to the restricted subsets in a closed system.

          August 27, 2014 at 12:35 am |
        • Jill

          believerfred, leptons coalesce in the pancreas, whereas cattle nosh in the turnstile. Within the indigenous parapets can be found novels and other grapes of paint. There is no caveat to the Klein bottle, and there will be no gold watch for the unspoken zero. Gobble the fertile gravel.

          Focus your nose on the test tube. Stay succulently upon your velodrome and fear not the coming of the essential kangaroo. Strawberries are your incidental chemistry. Present the fulcrum in advance of the gypsum cookie, for as the tree is combed, so goes the predicate. Expand quietly but do not relish.

          Whether or not you agree with the plumber, harvest away ye hearties. Kalabash in Friebourg but not in spanners while it's raining. Bring out the mustard but flap flap flap until takeoff. Why would you say such a thing in the presence of the substrate? 64. 1112. Welcome to the new sandwich lumberyard. Bus stops follow movement, or do they?

          The impediment to your posterior is large but can be dissected with chestnuts. Obermeyer. Glasnost and shallot cookies will do the main job when a steamshovel is too distant for pomegranate.

          Don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent.Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Serpentine. Indigo chestnuts. Give voice to your negligible garage. Walk with found yellow in the fold. Perish your underwear in the crescent.

          And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

          August 27, 2014 at 10:14 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      fred: He is not likely to reply to you, he read your earlier post, shook his head at your ignorance and decided he'd rather communicate with adults and not babbling buffoons like you. He did say it was a reminder as to why he doesn't comment here often.

      August 27, 2014 at 4:43 am |
    • Jill

      believerfred, leptons coalesce in the pancreas. There is no caveat to the Klein bottle, and there will be no gold watch for the unspoken zero. Gobble the fertile gravel.

      Focus your nose on the test tube. Stay succulently upon your velodrome and fear not the coming of the essential kangaroo. Strawberries are your incidental chemistry. Present the fulcrum in advance of the gypsum cookie, for as the tree is combed, so goes the predicate. Expand quietly but do not relish.

      Whether or not you agree with the plumber, harvest away ye hearties. Kalabash in Friebourg but not in spanners while it's raining. Bring out the mustard but flap flap flap until takeoff. Why would you say such a thing in the presence of the substrate? 64. 1112. Welcome to the new sandwich lumberyard. Bus stops follow movement, or do they?

      The impediment to your posterior is large but can be dissected with chestnuts. Obermeyer. Glasnost and shallot cookies will do the main job when a steamshovel is too distant for pomegranate.

      Don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent.Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Serpentine. Indigo chestnuts. Give voice to your negligible garage. Walk with found yellow in the fold. Perish your underwear in the crescent.

      And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

      August 27, 2014 at 10:11 am |
      • believerfred

        ! Back welcome, Jill

        August 27, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
  6. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Belief in the supernatural is primarily represented by Christians here. Have they driven other religious Americans into hiding?

    August 26, 2014 at 8:33 pm |
    • believerfred

      We had a few Muslims but the anti theists quickly deflated the magic carpet theory.

      August 26, 2014 at 8:40 pm |
      • khidir619

        Deflated? Who deflated me? And who are you? Magic carpet? OK, then can you tell me how we got here? Nope, you can't. And neither can anyone else. You're on a magic carpet your damn self. Pot, meet kettle.

        August 26, 2014 at 9:04 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          So you admit then, that your god is nothing but a god of the gaps explanation, as your brain can cook up nothing more creative. That's what I thought.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:22 pm |
        • khidir619

          I've always said Islam is my BELIEF. And I've always maintained that nobody knows s*hit. That's all I ever admitted to and that's all I'll ever admit to. I don't know where you're going with your post. Whatever science you come up with, I believe it was itself created. So what you thought was wrong.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:34 pm |
    • khidir619

      I must assume most people on the BB are American. Most religious Americans are Christians. So naturally the most representation on this blog will be Christians. If this were an Al-Jazera blog, I'm assuming Christians would be in the minority.

      August 26, 2014 at 9:01 pm |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        About 7% of religious Americans are non-Christian if you include Mormons as non-Christian. Otherwise, 5%.

        August 26, 2014 at 9:07 pm |
        • khidir619

          I know. That's what my post said. "Most religious people in America are Christians. "

          August 26, 2014 at 9:16 pm |
  7. observer

    How many Christians on here are unable to come up with an answer to whether it is better to be living on earth or in heaven?

    One is stumped so far. How about the rest of you?

    August 26, 2014 at 7:15 pm |
    • kermit4jc

      MY God you are arrogsnt..I CAN answer..I wont cause it is irrelevant and youre being a troll now

      August 26, 2014 at 7:20 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Arrogant is thinking you have a personal relationship with this imaginary being that you call god and that others who don't believe in your god are doomed!

        August 27, 2014 at 7:06 am |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      The whole premise is absurd.

      If heaven is so great why would anyone want to live another day? I guess this explains why so many of the religious are opposed to vaccinations – apparently they want their children to die and go to heaven.

      It does explain the "logic" behind sects that refuse medical treatment.

      August 26, 2014 at 7:24 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        earth is a great place as well..at least we find worth and value even here..which gives us comfort in times of persecution and trouble...I love life here.....and as I said..IM a patient person..when its my time to go (as GOD sees fit) then I will gladly go...until then I will enjoy life here...no need to be so pessimistic

        August 26, 2014 at 7:28 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          But only if you have an imaginary friend named god...right? Otherwise those of us who have open-minds and don't believe in your god should just off ourselves because you think we're of no value...right? You need to comprehend that you nor your imaginary friend have any control in this world nor do you or it have any right to determine what gives life purpose and meaning. That is basically what you said below! And you have the audacity to call others arrogant...such hypocrisy! You lack this wonderful thing called empathy...seek help and stop pretending (unless you prove otherwise) to be something you're obviously not.

          August 27, 2014 at 7:11 am |
      • LaBella

        The idea that one must believe in the Christian God for a life to be meaningful and have purpose is wholly not true.

        August 26, 2014 at 8:19 pm |
    • observer

      Christians, do you think it is IRRELEVENT whether it's better to live on earth or in heaven?

      August 26, 2014 at 7:28 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        HEY..Don't be dishonest here...stae that in CONTEXT to our conversation......otherwise you re intellectually dishonest

        August 26, 2014 at 7:29 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          The question is simple – Is it better to live on earth or in heaven.

          This is not a "context" issue. Does your minister qualify it anytime he mentions heaven being a better place?

          Still UNABLE to decide between the TWO answers? NO DIFFERENCE to you? lol. Ask CHRISTIANS.

          August 26, 2014 at 7:37 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          soarey ou saying then we are going on ANOTHER and totally different debate? If THAT is the case..i will answer...heaven is better than earth....and DO NOT attempt to bring up the aborted babies thing....since again that question is irrelevant..if you do bring up the aborted babies I will no longer respnd to your posts as you wil show you are misleading and conniving dishonest person

          August 26, 2014 at 7:43 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          FINALLY, you found enough INTEGRITY to answer the question that should have been answered LONG AGO. It was about time.

          August 26, 2014 at 7:48 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          shut up with the character stuff ok? I did NOT want to detract from the issue at hand..and I did not want you to frigging twist what I say..got it? don't be so frigging arrogant on me....get on with it and make your point

          August 26, 2014 at 7:49 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          If you originally had enough character to answer the question long ago, this wouldn't have been such a long conversation. When you get trapped in a corner and REFUSE to admit to truth, you will never win any points. Hopefully you've learned something.

          August 26, 2014 at 7:53 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          TELLMET hen..WHAT was the point of the quesiotn then? YOU wanna talkl about honesty? If you were trying to change the topic..SAY so....don't tel lme about being honest...I was trying to be honest with you by not allowing you to play me like a toy..ok? again enough with the frigging arrogance and move on

          August 26, 2014 at 7:55 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          by theway ..MY character was not in question..it was yours..I was NOT about to let you twist and mislead in this....which I highly suspected you would do

          August 26, 2014 at 7:55 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          also I was not refusing to admit truth..i was refusing to play in your stupid game

          August 26, 2014 at 7:56 pm |
      • kudlak

        observer
        I can imagine that living in the Federation of the Star Trek universe would be better than life here in the 21st century, but how fair is it to compare imaginary worlds with reality?

        August 27, 2014 at 7:16 am |
    • believerfred

      I assume it was bob's amputee that was stumped

      August 26, 2014 at 8:43 pm |
    • believerfred

      observer
      As long as we able to be a blessing we need to remain available for God.

      August 26, 2014 at 8:48 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Every Christian I've ever met hangs on to this life as if they didn't really buy into the heaven stuff, Isn't THAT interesting. Even the doctor wirh Ebola thanked his god for saving him. Even he would rather live here than go to heaven, apparently.

      August 26, 2014 at 9:30 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        God has given us THIS life and we are to enjoy it as well..NOTHING wrong with enjoying this ife is there? It does NOT mean we rather have this life than the other..remember the PURPOSE we are here....thus we want to keep doing work for God HERE.....you are basing your opinions on ignorance of what we belief and why....assuptions dont work very well if you want answers and knowledge of us

        August 27, 2014 at 1:53 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          "NOTHING wrong with enjoying this ife is there?"
          Unless God disapproves in how you enjoy your life, right?

          Enjoying life too much might lead people to wondering why they need Heaven to look forward to, or why they need religion to tell them how to be happy, and we can't have that, now can we?

          August 27, 2014 at 7:23 am |
        • kermit4jc

          you make it sound like youre happy without laws...God isn't there to be a killjoy..the laws he put forth are so we CAN have a good life! abuse of s ex does NOT lead to good life! STDs are rampant..Im sure its really good life to have AIDS! and to have other diseases to spread around when recklessly abusing s ex and all...come on...

          August 27, 2014 at 9:42 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          I am happy to have laws that I have some democratic say in. Laws that do not discriminate against minorities, for example. In the real world, you can at least try to escape an authoritarian regime like you describe God's Rule as being, but it's your belief that nobody can ever escape his tyranny, so I have to imagine myself as being like someone trapped behind the electrified fence in your world.

          Since when does being from even a conservative Christian background make anyone less likely to abuse se x, have an STD, or get AIDS? Aren't those things, along with teenage pregnancy, actually more common in Bible Belt areas?

          August 27, 2014 at 11:53 am |
        • kermit4jc

          I am happy to have laws that I have some democratic say in<-now that's arrogance..as if YOU know whats best for YOU and everyone else?? God knows more than you do! He knows whats best for YOU...He kno3s yOu more than you know yourself.....and you want to "have a democratic say" in it and ruin your life? God does not make laws against minorities...God loves ALL peoples...His laws are based on whats BEST for everyone...

          August 27, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
        • LaBella

          What is so arrogant in the desire to have a say in the laws that are passed, Kermit?
          The US will NEVER be a Theocracy. Thank God!

          August 27, 2014 at 12:52 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          rEAD my post again labella....HUMANS do NOT know every single thing that's best for themselves...GOd does....He is doing this out of LOVE and PROTECTION for us.....it is arrogant to think one knows as much as God does to have a say in the laws he makes...it is arrogant to think that an all knowing God needs input from others as to what laws are best for us....let me ask you..do you have kids..you ever ask your three year old about their input on house rules? you say "what other rules can we have, what do yo uthink?"

          August 27, 2014 at 12:55 pm |
        • LaBella

          Kermit,
          You highlighted a sentence, and then proceeded to call someone arrogant because they desire a democratic say in the laws that are passed. That isn't arrogance. That's common sense.

          August 27, 2014 at 1:26 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          it is arrogance when one presumes to know as much as God does and assume that an all knowing God needs input from us about His laws

          August 27, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
        • LaBella

          Except in your highlighted sentence, there was merely desire to have a democratic say in our laws. There is no arrogance in that wish.
          If you are going to highlight a statement, it is useful to actually address that statement.
          We are a secular country, and that is the way our laws are proposed; democratically.
          It isn't arrogant at all to have a say in what laws govern us.
          You may, of course, disagree with the way our laws are formed, but the alternative is even worse.

          August 27, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          Who says that God knows what's best for me? Why should I trust what some book, or you, have to say on the subject? If God thinks that he knows what's best for me let him tell me in person and, even then, he better be able to prove that he actually knows better.

          Does God love the gay minority enough to let them love who they love freely?

          Does God love people of other faiths enough not to punish them for not believing in him?

          Finally, why do you hate the idea of having freedom so much? Why not move to North Korea if you hate democracy?

          August 27, 2014 at 5:52 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          first of all.God is The Creator and He is all knowing...if He created you...then LOGIC says He knows yo ubetter than you know yourself. Secondly....Gods love does not mean He says do whatever you want and abuse yourseves..I wont lay out laws...I don't care enough abot you to give you rules....thirdly thepunishment is that you don't get to spend eternity knowing Gods presence...if you reject God he is not letting you into heaven (if you reject him why want to go to his place anyways?) thus you will miss out on what he has to offer-eternity with no pain..eternity with hope, peace and joy....when you reject God you reject these things he offers, and fourthly I don't hate freedom at all...what makes you think I hate freedom? freedom of what?

          August 27, 2014 at 6:05 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        If heaven did exist and were to be full of people like kermi and fred, would you want to be there? Most of them don't like each other, let alone other people on this planet...they're merely passing time here because they've been brainwashed to believe hey are special and more deserving for being gullible.

        August 27, 2014 at 7:14 am |
        • kudlak

          If they managed to end up in Heaven, and discovered that God didn't actually agree with everything they think he should agree with, I wonder if they would still stay in Heaven and serve the God they don't agree with, or would they rebel and leave like the character in Milton did?

          August 27, 2014 at 7:28 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          It's subservience. I'm guessing they'd stay because otherwise it would mean the other place where that big meany satan is.
          Although, if they must first pass through the so-called Pearly Gates how do they intend to rectify the hatred and inequality they have spewed forth on this planet?
          The Christians on this blog are not at all like the Christians I know...the ones I know would never say someone is wrong for not believing or for being gay or for using abortions but these same people wouldn't want others imposing their opinions on their personal lives, so they attempt to follow the Golden Rule-something that the Christians on this blog are clueless about.
          I don't think any of them have clued in to the fact that they are far more deserving of their hell than any of us are.

          August 27, 2014 at 7:49 am |
        • kudlak

          TruthPrevails1
          Subservience, but also that weird kind of pride that children of volatile hockey parents probably feel, knowing that their parent's monster side will likely only surface against the people who pick on them ( or honestly criticize their performance).

          The irony about Satan is that he supposedly left Heaven because he disagreed with God's decisions. So the Christians in my scenario would be making the same choice he made in choosing to reject a God who doesn't live up to their expectations.

          I up here in Canada and, while most of our Christians politely keep their beliefs to themselves (as I do in actual public), I happen to live in Alberta where a disturbing number of people will actually say the most vile things publicly. So, even from my limited personal experience, I could never call Poe on any of the various characters here. I have no doubts that people like this actually do exist in real life. Whether our troop-like theists are genuine or not, I do not know, but I answer them as though they are, when I am in a mood to.

          August 27, 2014 at 11:28 am |
  8. khidir619

    "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

    ~Albert Einstein

    August 26, 2014 at 6:37 pm |
    • observer

      khidir619,

      Thanks for a misleading quote from an AGNOSTIC.

      August 26, 2014 at 6:41 pm |
      • khidir619

        What's so misleading about it? You missed the point anyway. The point is, NOBODY knows s*it. There's no need bickering about it, just ask questions and search for answers in your own way without insulting the next person's beliefs. How can someone insult the next person when they themselves know diddly squat. That's the point... So, you hate agnostics too?..@kudlak:I'm not sure about all of the world religions' connection to science. I do however know that my faith, Islam, is loaded with science and accepts science. I don't know much about scientific history as far as dates, but I'm pretty sure that up until about 500 years ago (feel free to give me the actual time, once again I'm not sure), everyone thought the Earth was square. The Holy Qur'an was revealed over 1400 years ago and it says the Earth is oval. But I cannot or will not speak for other religions because I don't have the knowledge on those faiths.

        August 26, 2014 at 7:34 pm |
        • observer

          khidir619,

          Your statement was a MISLEADING quote from an AGNOSTIC. Einstein did not believe in ANY organized religion.

          Please do some research before getting upset next time.

          Why are you so defensive about TRUTH?

          August 26, 2014 at 7:41 pm |
        • khidir619

          When did I say Einstein was part of an organized religion. You flat out made that up because it's not in my post. Neither is anger. You made that up too. How am I upset in my post. It was a quote. Because the quote wasn't from an atheist you get hot and bothered about it? SMH. I'm not an agnostic, hell, I don't even know what an agnostic is. It doesn't matter who said it and what his or her beliefs were. The quote has some damn sense to it.

          August 26, 2014 at 8:32 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          "I'm pretty sure that up until about 500 years ago (feel free to give me the actual time, once again I'm not sure), everyone thought the Earth was square."
          ------------------------
          This is simply not true. People understood that the earth was spherical (or at least approximately so) from the time of the ancient Greeks and this dates back to the 6th century BCE.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy#Hellenic_world

          August 26, 2014 at 8:33 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          "I do however know that my faith, Islam, is loaded with science and accepts science."
          --------------------------------
          In the Islamic Golden Age (c. 750 CE – c. 1258 CE) Muslim scientists led the world. They don't anymore.

          Neil De-Grasse Tyson suggests that Islamic fundamentalism in the 11th century, after the impact of people like theologian Al Ghazali, in changed this. You might find this lecture interesting:

          -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDAT98eEN5Q-

          August 26, 2014 at 8:42 pm |
        • khidir619

          @Gop:??? Thanks for the correction. I always heard that people literally got killed just a few centuries back for believing the Earth wasn't square. I was under the impression that was most people's views at that time was that Earth was square...How does the Islamic golden age in science ending have to do with my post? All I said is that Islam accepts science and the Qur'an contains science. I didn't say anything about Muslims dominating the scientific world.

          August 26, 2014 at 8:52 pm |
        • khidir619

          *what, not how

          August 26, 2014 at 8:54 pm |
        • kudlak

          khidir619
          Islamic culture use to be very advanced in math and science, but it seems to have gotten stuck in the Middle Ages.

          People use to think that the Earth was round. Flat, but round, not square.

          As far as creation stories go I find the Chinese story to be the best. It's idea of a "cosmic egg" and "no-thing" best match modern cosmological physics.

          August 27, 2014 at 7:35 am |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          "All I said is that Islam accepts science and the Qur'an contains science."
          ---------------------------
          Sure, Muslims and Christians have equally demonstrated an ability to be patrons of science.

          Fundamentalism, in Islam, Christianity or any other faith is not friendly to science.

          August 27, 2014 at 12:18 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        Einstein wasn't an agnostic. If you want to use a label, which I suspect he would have objected to, use "deist".

        Look up Spinoza's God if you want further clarification. Deist beliefs are not the same as agnosticism.

        It is true that Einstein did not believe in an anthropomorphic God.

        August 26, 2014 at 8:10 pm |
        • khidir619

          But Einstein believed "there's something behind that energy." Good enough for me.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:20 pm |
        • G to the T

          "there's something behind that energy."
          Did you look up Spinoza's god – cause this ain't it...

          August 27, 2014 at 7:30 am |
        • kudlak

          Besides, it doesn't matter what "smart" scientists personally believe, it's what they can prove that matters. Newton spent most of his life firmly believing that alchemy must work, and wasted a lot of time trying to prove it. That doesn't cast any shadow on what he did manage to prove, however, but it does demonstrate that anyone can operate with false presumptions, even the smartest amongst us. Who knows what Einstein would come to believe had he lived long enough to know what we presently do about the universe, eh?

          August 27, 2014 at 7:52 am |
    • kudlak

      But how much science does any religion actually have? Seems like all of them are at least partially blind, with their darkest corners being those where they maintain belief in things like gods and the supernatural.

      August 26, 2014 at 6:47 pm |
  9. observer

    kermit4jc

    "denying the baby the right to live..."

    Which is BETTER – living on earth or being in heaven?

    Still TOTALLY STUMPED?

    August 26, 2014 at 6:35 pm |
    • kermit4jc

      youre not going to get a yes or no answer since the question is irrelevant..IM not the one stumped..you are for asking irrelevant questions

      August 26, 2014 at 6:37 pm |
      • observer

        kermit4jc

        "Which is better - living on earth or in heaven?

        Your answer "the question is irrelevant"

        Classic!!! Wonder what other Christians say?

        August 26, 2014 at 6:46 pm |
      • observer

        kermit4jc,

        If you continue to be stumped you could ask CHRISTIANS.

        August 26, 2014 at 6:59 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          WHy don't you shut your arrogant mouth? I KNOW the answer..the line of questioning is irrelevant to the point...I made it clear, WE are NOT judge and executioner..and nothing you bring up will justify that...I don thave to ask other questions..IM not the one stumped...YOU are the one who is stumped for asking a question irrelevant to the debate

          August 26, 2014 at 7:02 pm |
    • kudlak

      Earth is the better place. At least we know that it exists, even if it isn't perfect.

      Maybe you should also check your science fiction. Almost every instance where someone writes about a "utopia" it's a cautionary tale about just how impossible it actually is to create one. Even the story of the Garden can be seen in this light. Life there may have seemed idilic, but it was also totally authoritarian, with absolutely no freedom. Adam and Eve were treated little better than zoo animals. In most ways, aren't we better of being out of that place?

      August 26, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        A ande were given freedom! they had freedom to CHOOSe God or rejct Him! just because there are consequences for rejecting God does NOT mean there is no freedom. God did NOT do their choice making for them..he did nOT foce them to make the choice...they did it ll on their own free will....

        August 26, 2014 at 6:58 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        and in the Garden it wasn't abll about caring for the earth..but FELLOWSHIP with God! as for caring for the earth..I guess you hate gardening..I LOVE working in the garden/yard at home! I love seeing the majesty of Gods creation in the flowers, grass, trees, etc etc etc....you make it sound like a burden.....Ill have to ask your wife about that

        August 26, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
      • kudlak

        kermit4jc
        The people of North Korea also have the choice between submitting to the state, and execution, but would you call that "freedom"?

        I love gardening too, but only because I get to choose what I plant, and when. I can't imagine it being as enjoyable to tend a prison garden. Tell me, were Adam and Eve free to just walk out of the Garden whenever they felt like it?

        August 26, 2014 at 7:20 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          North Korea is terrible analogy..again its about RELATIONSHIP as well..the leader of NK wouldn't give a care about the people and relationships...he is ONLY in it for control..nothing more......totally different from God....

          August 26, 2014 at 7:22 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          sure..t.hey could...hwoever...this is NOT a prison place either..its GODS place..let me tell you...do you invite people into your home and let them do as they pelase? they skeep in your bed, no matter if you want to sleep there or not? do they eat all your food without your permission? do they go thru your wallet and take what they want? come on....get real..its called repsecting another persons place...and again it is about RELATIONSHIP....I have a relationship with family..when I used to go to Colorado each year, part of my vacation is working on the ranch (I loved doing it!) A and e would not have seen it as a prison...but just as I do..a place where one works among Gods Creaiton, being awed by th sights of seeing new kinds of flowers, plants, animals! I mean come on

          August 26, 2014 at 7:25 pm |
        • austin929

          kudlak

          the challenge is not one of the past and freedom.......now its about restoration.. do you deserve that?

          August 26, 2014 at 9:10 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          If you read up on North Korea you'd realize that plenty of citizens actually do appear to love the dear leaders. You can do that in a dictatorship if you identify with the ruling power, align yourself with their goals, and count their enemies as your own.

          They'd actually turn in any fellow citizen they catch not being loyal.

          August 27, 2014 at 5:30 am |
        • kermit4jc

          uhh..reel it in dude..we were talking of the leader..not the people...the INTENTIONS of the leader..

          August 27, 2014 at 9:33 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          It's not about how beautiful the surroundings are, it's about feeling free within those surroundings, and Adam and Eve were definitely not free in the Garden, right? Christianity seems to think that freedom is a bad thing. Why else deem it a virtue to submit yourself to God, like a sheep to it's shepherd? What kind of "relationship" is that? Ultimately, the sheep gets fleeced regularly and ends up on the shepherd's dinner table before it gets to live out it's natural life. I'd rather be free.

          August 27, 2014 at 6:36 am |
        • kermit4jc

          when I say a relationship..I mean a loving relationship...I guess you don't like loving relationships at all..and quite contrary to your statement..we Christians are AL about FREEDOM! freedom to LOVE God..freedom from sin! and what is NOT free about being "sheep" and shepherd?

          August 27, 2014 at 9:36 am |
        • kudlak

          austin929
          Do you deserve to be treated like a zoo animal, pet, or livestock? That's how I see Adam's relationship with God in the Garden. Why would I possibly ever want that?

          August 27, 2014 at 6:39 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Kermit

          Stalin does not send anyone to the Gulag.
          It is those who have hardened their hearts against him who send themselves to the Gulag through their bourgoise atti/tudes and counter-revolutionary actions.
          This was not Stalin's plan at all.
          He truly wants everyone to go to the Worker's Paradise and it grieves him that so many harden their hearts against him.
          But he will not force anyone into the Worker's Paradise against their wishes. He respects their free will.
          If you don't want to go to the Gulag, just open your heart to the love of Stalin.

          Sound familiar at all?

          August 27, 2014 at 9:47 am |
        • kermit4jc

          npe..because youre making a silly and ignorant anology that is nowhere in comparison to God..Stalin was a finite UNLOVING being whos ONLY intentions were for himself..no love involved (maybe love of himself)

          August 27, 2014 at 9:59 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          Sheep do exist in a wild state, understand? Not all sheep are livestock, and even the ones who are don't live some petting-zoo existence like on children's TV shows. Some actually get to live outside the bounds of fences, without having their tails docked, being castrated, or having a tag stapled through their ear. They get to die of old age without getting slaughtered as a child to make lamb souvlaki. Even with the treat of wolves, I'd still rather be a wild and free sheep than livestock kept by a shepherd only for his personal gain.

          When you say a "loving relationship" you can't actually mean the kind we have with other people, right? For humans, there is equality between those in the relationship. Parents and children may start off as apparently unequal, but what parent doesn't treat their child in a way that will develop their relationship into one of equals once they become adults and assume the role of parent themselves?

          That's the problem with your proposed relationship with God: He will never treat you like an equal, like an adult. Any human parent who continued to treat their adult children like little kids who still have to live by their rules would have their "love" for them questioned, wouldn't they? No, what you're describing is, at best, more like the kind of relationship we can expect to have with our pets. At least, for those of us who don't consider themselves to be "pet parents", I suppose?

          I'm all about freedom from sin too. I'm free to disregard the unjustified claim that I am offending some spiteful god with tender feelings.

          August 27, 2014 at 10:23 am |
        • kermit4jc

          you make a terrible anlogy! God is not a human...relationships between himans are different tham from God..and there CAN be a love without the "equality" you talk about..NO ONE can equal to God...we are not Gods...but that does NOT mean there cannot be any love..God DOES treat us as adults..he ALLOWS us to CHOOSE,,and the God you described at the end of post is NOT a spiteful God that I worship nor is in the Bible..and second..the sheep thing went WAY too far! slaughter and all....sheesh.....that's not in the relationship with God.....youre stretching it to beyond what is intended in the Bile with us being sheep

          August 27, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          ( _____ ) is our ruler and salvation.
          ( _____ ) has given unto us the guidelines for right and wrong.
          ( _____ ) wants nothing more than to bestow peace, unity and happiness upon all mankind.
          ( _____ ) will not hesitate to mete out severe and torturous punishment upon those who disobey them.
          ( _____ )'s followers are commanded to spread The Message far and wide by any means necessary.

          Fill in the blank...

          August 27, 2014 at 10:27 am |
        • kermit4jc

          whats that all about? whats your point?

          August 27, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          Stalin could have sincerely believed that he knew best how to make the Russian people prosper, just as Hitler did. In the case of Hitler you have to remember that the German people freely elected him to power, knowing full well in advance what his aims and plans were. The first (and arguably only) thing that these elected politicians did was hand over full dictatorial power to Hitler. Because they saw themselves as the group who would benefit from this, the majority who elected him had no problem with giving him so much power, and you don't seem to be concerned about God supposedly having this same power over everyone because you also see yourself as being amongst the elite, yes? No dictatorship can exist without some group allowing the regime to hold power over everyone else. As far as anyone can tell, all of God's "power" comes from people like yourself enforcing his supposed will over themselves and others.

          August 27, 2014 at 10:35 am |
        • kermit4jc

          apparently yo uguys are not getting it..Stqalin could care less of the people..he is only in it for himself and power.....nothing more...no love involved...its a terrible logic to attempt to equate God to earthly people

          August 27, 2014 at 12:38 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          Stalin may have been arrogant and egotistical, but how do you know that he didn't see himself as Russia's saviour, sincerely believing that he had the answers to all their problems? The road to Hell, as they say, is full of good intentions. It would be a pretty childish thing to believe that everyone who turns out to be a villain actually sees themselves as such. Maybe in the comic books, but not in real life.

          August 27, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Again I addressed this already...you miss out the personal relationship that God desires with ALL...Stalin as a human would only be able to have a personal relationship with few people, if any

          August 27, 2014 at 6:03 pm |
  10. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    The Resurrection is a possible result of interrogation of the superimposed states of Jesus. Obviously (the proof is left to the student – please slide it under my door by Friday) there are two quantum mechanical states: Risen Christ and Dead Jesus (or Up and Down). There is a kitty in a chamber together with a vial of poison gas that will be released if the state is Up. You may insist on a Risen Christ, but the kitty is neither alive nor dead until you actually determine the state of Jesus. Personally, I've no idea how the kitty is doing. Do you know if the kitty is alive in Jesus?

    August 26, 2014 at 5:50 pm |
    • ausphor

      TTTOO
      Sadly Austin squished it in one of his dreams.
      BTW since Dalahast has moved on I have decided to begin responding to awanderingscot by making more absurd statements based on the biblical BS than that dolt can make about evolution. Crazy crap deserves crazy crap in response, wish me luck in my trolling/anti-trolling endeavours.

      August 26, 2014 at 6:00 pm |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        The bible is rich in that sort of material – more so than most pastures. I predict you'll be very successful.

        August 26, 2014 at 6:04 pm |
      • kudlak

        Oh, I remember Austin.

        Anyone else get a serial-killer-in-the-making vibe off of that guy?

        August 26, 2014 at 6:57 pm |
        • austin929

          really decent comment kudlak. are you serious ?

          August 26, 2014 at 9:01 pm |
        • austin929

          I don't think anyone has the right to use lethal force. I personally think that most americans who justify the use of lethal force..are commiting muder conspiracy.

          if I wanted to be a serial killer I could have signed up to be a sheriff or bowed down to the military pension.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:03 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Absolutely. He admitted to wishing he could blow up every store that sold alcohol...just a little psychotic. His Mommy need to have him admitted to their local asylum for an indefinite period of time.

          August 27, 2014 at 4:51 am |
        • kudlak

          austin929
          I was remembering the guy who use to post here about having prophetic dreams about a cat dying, only to discover a dead cat soon afterwards. Those posts were creepy, and reminded me of the observation that people who torture animals often are on their way towards being serial killers. If you're that Austin, I'm glad to hear that you're not fantasying about dead cats anymore.

          August 27, 2014 at 6:46 am |
  11. Dyslexic doG

    wondering scot

    I would have thought that Christians would love the idea of evolution.

    If the Christian god really did design every creature, then he is the most inept designer ever ... as 99% of the creatures that have ever lived have been so badly designed that they have become extinct.

    a 99% failure rate does not indicate an omnipotent, omniscient god. It indicates an absolute incompetent. Evolution would give Christians an escape hatch to explain such incompetence by their god, and yet they argue against it.

    Seems Christians cling to the stories of bible more than they worship their 3 gods.

    August 26, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
    • LaBella

      And some certainly worship the Bible as their God.

      August 26, 2014 at 3:50 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        His word is spirit but i would not expect the unborn to know this. You do not see the kingdom of God and thus your comment.

        August 26, 2014 at 4:51 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          pure "cult-speak" with no links to reality ...

          August 26, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • LaBella

          You have illustrated my point nicely, Scot; thank you.
          Now we know which size of the spectrum you fall into.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:52 pm |
        • LaBella

          *side of the spectrum

          August 26, 2014 at 5:57 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          side of the size spectrum?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:59 pm |
        • LaBella

          Size matters.

          August 27, 2014 at 11:29 am |
    • kermit4jc

      THAT is to ASSUME that God created all things for it to exist for eternity in THIS world.....you however have a dim and limited view on the argument...THIS world and EVERYTHING in it is TEMPORARY! thus your argument to attemot to debunk God here is irrelevant

      August 26, 2014 at 4:21 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        All things are transient.
        Including morality.

        August 26, 2014 at 4:27 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          if thatstrue ..why areyou so intolerant of our beliefs and morals? why not live and let live? even if we are guilty of "shoving it down your throats" who are YOu to say it is immoral when you really got no standard..and thus be hypocritical?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:33 pm |
        • Rynomite

          Absolutely.

          Even Biblical morality is transient. THEN being the past, think of how biblical morality has changed to the present day (NOW).

          THEN – Multiple wives GOOD! NOW – Multiple wives BAD.
          THEN – Slavery GOOD! NOW – Slavery BAD.
          THEN – Women teaching BAD. NOW – Women teaching GOOD!
          THEN – Women voting (or having public life) BAD. NOW – Women voting GOOD!
          THEN – Alcohol GOOD, THEN Alcohol BAD! NOW – Alcohol GOOD again!

          August 26, 2014 at 4:35 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          THEN – Multiple wives GOOD! NOW – Multiple wives BAD.<–Bible NEVER said multiple wives was ok..the very beginning the Bibel stated it..ONE man and ONE woman to join together and become ONE flesh..as for rest..none of the Bible says that...nowhere did it say women could not vote...nowhere did the Bibel state the women Everywhere could not teach....etc etc....you need to get back to read whats ACTAULLY IN the BIble

          August 26, 2014 at 4:39 pm |
        • Rynomite

          "Bible NEVER said multiple wives was ok"

          It never says it is NOT ok, and actions speak louder than words. The patriarchs had multiple wives, mistresses, three ways with their daughters and none of it is condemned by Yahweh.

          "nowhere did it say women could not vote" Because voting was not a concept of races ruled by kings. That said, women were denied the vote in this and many other countries for many, many years and the chief argument was explicit commands of the bible that more or less say women need to stay out of public life and let men lead.

          "nowhere did the Bibel state the women Everywhere could not teach" Well that one is actually explicit:

          "I do not let women teach men or have authority over them." 1 Timothy 2:12

          The point being, that Christians (even the conservative ones) have changed their tune on what bible morality means since the days in which the books of the bible were written.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          OMG you really don't use reason and logic?? READ what I said..Gid made it clear in the VERY beginning..are you so stupid you need to be reminded and have it spelled out to you? and BTW..Those people who had multiple wives, God allowed NATURAL Consequences! Look at Solomon! He wasn't so great after a while! I mean sheehs..YOu are in the misconception that God condemns people directly for every single action....not close to truth at all...God allows natural consequences (just as parents do) that gets the people the idea WHY its not a good thing....apparently you are not willing to lewrn from mistakes you made or mistakes of others....

          August 26, 2014 at 4:57 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          nowhere did it say women could not vote” Because voting was not a concept of races ruled by kings. That said, women were denied the vote in this and many other countries for many, many years and the chief argument was explicit commands of the bible that more or less say women need to stay out of public life and let men lead.<-that is ABUSE of the BIble..NOT what Bible teaches..make yourself MORE clear on that ok?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:58 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          “I do not let women teach men or have authority over them.” 1 Timothy 2:<-let mne ask you about this..WHo is Timothy? Where was he at when Paul wrote to him? what was his profession and what was the culture of the city where Timothy was at?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:59 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          The Bible praised Solomon over and over as the WISEST man in the world. He had 1,000 wives and concubines. NEVER did the Bible say that was wrong. NEVER.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:48 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          apparently you have not read all of the account of Solomon.....first of all..Solomon was praised by MEN.....and just cause he hd wisdom does nOT mean he never made a mistake..and lastly...the BIBLE records that the women led him astray from God and all.....that he did not have an easy life of it.....again the Bible DOEs say it is wrong..by saying that TWO shall come together to be ONE flesh.....I think YOUR problem is you assume that God is supposed to tell them everytime they did wrong..they already know what is wrong

          August 26, 2014 at 5:53 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          On an individual basis your beliefs and morals don't affect us any more than the folks who follow their horoscopes, or think that they've lived past lives. Where you guys do differ, however, is in your constant pushing of your beliefs and morals onto the rest of us. If you don't like abortion, or gay marriage, or evolution, fine! Don't choose them for yourself, but why fight against other people having their choice? Even some other Christians are perfectly OK with such things, so aren't you expressing a certain religious intolerance with your opposition, intolerance that you would feel victimized by if levied against you?

          August 26, 2014 at 7:13 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Don’t choose them for yourself, but why fight against other people having their choice<-so in other words, don't push your morals on others? and if that's case..when I see someone getting beat up by another, I shouldn't push my morals on the person who is beating up the other one..on goodness no! Ill just walk on by and let them continue beating them up...I certainly don't wanna push my morals on them! come on..don't you know how ridiculous your response is? you may not admit it, but the truth is there..the CONCLUSION of your logic goes to that point..I will walk on and let them person doing the breating continue to beat up and even murde the victim...I don't want to push my morals on him..and also, if we are not to push morals on others, why have jails? arresting them and putting them in jail pretty much pushes OUR morals on the prson

          August 26, 2014 at 7:20 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          Nobody has to believe in the same god that you do not to enjoy getting beaten up, or witnessing such an attack. So, don't even attempt to label that as just one of your morals, OK? I'm talking about distinctly religious morals that many people find as ridiculous as being wary of black cats crossing your path. Let's say that the people with that superst.ition become as politically active as Christians are. Would it be right for them to get a law passed making it illegal to own a black cat, and to have all such cats currently kept turned over for destruction?

          August 26, 2014 at 7:28 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          now you are being just plain silly

          August 26, 2014 at 7:30 pm |
        • austin929

          hey kudlak...........I can tell by your personality that you are a serial killer. its obvious.

          August 26, 2014 at 9:52 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Putting someone in jail is not forcing morality on anyone...it is enforcing our laws. There is a difference.

          August 26, 2014 at 11:04 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          uhh..it is forcing morality on others..it is saying "YOU can NOT murder someone, or you get punishment" Its pushing the morality of you cannot murder.....call it enforcing if you like...if morality is relative then we should not be putting people in jail since they may have different morals

          August 27, 2014 at 1:58 am |
        • thesamyaza

          then froggy

          why hate sodomy?

          Alabama (Alab. Code 13A-6-65.)
          Florida (Fld. Stat. 798.02.) (Fld. Stat. 800.02.)
          Georgia (Ga. Stat. 16-6-18.) (Ga. Stat. 16-6-18.)
          Idaho (I.C. § 18-6605.) (I.C. § 18-6605.)
          Kansas (Kan. Stat. 21-3505.)
          Kentucky (KY Rev Stat § 510.100.)
          Louisiana (R.S. 14:89.)
          Maryland (Md. Code Ann. § 3-321.) (Md. Code Ann. § 3-322.) (Md. Code Ann. § 3-322.)
          Massachusetts (MGL Ch. 272, § 34.) (MGL Ch. 272, § 35.)
          Michigan (MCL § 750.158.) (MCL § 750.338.) (MCL § 750.338a.) (MCL § 750.338b.)
          Minnesota (Minn. Stat. 609.293.) (Minn. Stat. 609.34.)
          Mississippi (Miss. Code § 97-29-59.)
          North Carolina (G.S. § 14-177.) (G.S. § 14-184.) (G.S. § 14-186.)
          Oklahoma (Okla. Stat. § 21-886.)
          South Carolina (S.C. Code § 16-15-60.) (S.C. Code § 16-15-120.)
          Texas (Tx. Code § 21.06.)
          Utah (Ut. Code 76-5-403.)

          morality is law in these stats

          all non violent crimes are in a sense laws based of Abrahamic morality

          August 27, 2014 at 5:18 am |
        • kudlak

          austin929
          I'm not the one who dreams about dead cats, and then "finds" them.

          August 27, 2014 at 6:49 am |
        • kudlak

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers
          Laws that are democratically determined, and which do not favour one religion's morality being applied over all citizens in what would be a clear violation of your First Amendment, right?

          August 27, 2014 at 6:58 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          "why areyou so intolerant of our beliefs and morals?"
          I feel that the Christian ethic is wonderful in theory. Those who strive to live Christ's message of pacifism, charity, humility and forgiveness are much needed in the world – especially those who heed Matthew 6 and keep their faith private. The sad fact is that those types of Christians are drowned out by the din of self righteous prosthelytizing and the condemnation of this and that from a fiery pulpit. Christianity is not meant to be a political bloc for the legislation of morality. That is has become so in the United States is of concern not only to the millions of non-Christian citizens but to everyone in the world with a different ethic.

          why not live and let live?
          That is precisely what most people want – not just the irreligious.
          However, when the religious majority seek to repress and/or oppress those they've deemed unrighteous, people of good conscience won't stand idly by, though they may make themselves a target of the majority.
          Is that not one of Christ's lessons?
          The "Moral Majority" are modern Saducees.

          even if we are guilty of "shoving it down your throats" who are YOu to say it is immoral when you really got no standard..and thus be hypocritical?

          And here is a good example of self-righteous arrogance.
          Just because someone's ethical standard is different from yours, that doesn't mean that they lack one.
          That you are unwilling to consider the merits of any belief system other than your own demonstrates one of the problems with sectarian religions. When you believe that you and your kin are the sole posessors of The Truth, you can easily become arrogant – dismissive of the "unenlightened", repressive of those who deign to speak against you, and all too often oppressive of any who teach an alternative world view.

          I don't begrudge people whatever gentle delusions get them through the day.
          Plenty of people talk to nothing – it certainly does no harm. The man widely considered to be Canada's greatest Prime Minister rountiely conferred with the spirits of the dead – including that of his dog!
          I know a woman who worked with severely autistic children using hokey holistic cr.ap like crystal energy, reiki and healing tones. Sometimes her loving, non-invasive, calming ways did a lot of good – but even in the worst of cases, she did no harm.
          Nobody is a villain in their own eyes.
          If you keep that in mind, you might find a way to become friends with all sorts of different kind, goodhearted people with unique perspectives. And if not, you can dismiss them quickly and without hate or condemnation.

          August 27, 2014 at 8:54 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          I know that being supersti.tious about black cats is silly, but so is being supersti.tious about incurring the wrath of some bronze-age god, IMHO.

          August 27, 2014 at 9:49 am |
      • ausphor

        Kermit
        Could you please try and express yourself in coherent sentences with proper punctuation and without the use of CAPITALS at random intervals. It would make much easier to get your point across, THanX yoU.

        August 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        seriously?!?!
        your omnipotent and omniscient god deliberately designs things badly intending them to fail?
        and then designs more creatures to fill the gap left in the environment and designs them to fail too?
        and so on and so on for 6,000 years?

        August 26, 2014 at 4:40 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          God gave us dignity of free will..to choose to reject or accept him..rejection of God causes all things to be temporary..since this world and reality as we know it is stained....you got something wrong with allowing people to reject or choose God? you got a problem with someone allowing you choice to love them..or are you a "ra pist" who will NOT take no for an answer to demand of loving them?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:44 pm |
        • harlow13

          I remember watching a nature show where this herd of gazelle-like creatures wanted to cross a river. Enormous crocodiles lay waiting. The horrible thrashing, rolling and bleating made me shudder. So brutal. But I can’t really blame the crocs. You know?

          Now had I designed things, I would have set it so that crocodiles thrived on gazelle feces. That way, those crocs would have been really nice to those gazelles. They would even help the gazelles find good things to eat.

          If we do have a creator, I think he may be nuts.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:50 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          I am not sure how "free will" even applies so I am adding that one to your total of cowardly dodges.

          But since you brought the subject up, I have a couple of questions for you:

          Q1) If god answers a prayer for one person, wouldn't that interfere with someone else's free will? Is that why god never answers prayers?

          Q2) If a person was going to do something that would completely ruin god's grand plan for the world, would god let the person do it and ruin everything, or would god intervene and not allow that person free will?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:58 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          you assume that God ispar t of THIS realm..of which HE created in the first pl;ace..second....God does not always answer in the YES to every prayer! If a yes answer would infringe on the free will of another, he would not allow it! I have NOT cowardly dodged anything..you just don't like my answers....

          August 26, 2014 at 5:01 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          a retreat to mysticism is the first refuge of the cornered fool.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:10 pm |
        • Sungrazer

          "If we do have a creator, I think he may be nuts."

          From "God", by Tori Amos: "Tell me you're crazy, maybe then I'll understand"

          August 26, 2014 at 6:05 pm |
        • Sungrazer

          "you assume that God ispar t of THIS realm..of which HE created in the first pl;ace.."

          It's not at all clear to me how a god who exists outside of time and space could create and interact with time and space.

          August 26, 2014 at 6:07 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      Man has not been able to create even the simplest seed let alone a single cell. Ignorant statements such as these are as a grain of sand in a mighty ocean perched on the Creator's little finger. You open your mouth and foolishness spills out.

      August 26, 2014 at 4:59 pm |
      • niknakk

        And you still have no proof that god created anything either.
        Just because you believe it does not make it true.

        Btw, we are still waiting for your proof of your creation myth.

        August 26, 2014 at 5:37 pm |
      • ausphor

        wanderingtwit
        You seem to have a problem with people making statements that are more absurd than yours. Are you afraid of being out trolled, poor baby?

        August 26, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
  12. bostontola

    [I can't accept quantum mechanics because] "I like to think the moon is there even if I am not looking at it."
    Albert Einstein

    So by the algorithm of the scot-bot program:
    Quantum Mechanics is complete and utter nonsense and the adherents to this religion are delusional.

    The standard model of QM is the most accurately tested and validated theory in earthly existence. But the scot-bot algorithm would have us throw that out because there is a quote by a noted scientist against it.

    scot-bot programmer: Please update that program.

    August 26, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      It has been hard getting used to the new way of thinking – that we can/should accept a theory that fits all evidence even if no one knows what it means.

      August 26, 2014 at 3:17 pm |
      • bostontola

        Do we really know what any theory means? We think we do, but often we found out later we didn't. The math is right and proven, but the meaning changes over time. Human ability to understand objective reality is quite limited. We understand what we perceive and fits into our human model of the objective world. Tests have shown that the human model of the physical world is great in the range required for survival and procreation, but it is very limited and distorted outside that range.

        August 26, 2014 at 3:32 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      Quantum mechanics has also falsified evolution. You should read up on it.

      August 26, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
      • bostontola

        In the scot-bot program, everything has discredited evolution. Biology, Physics, chemistry, anthropology, archeology, literature, art, architecture, sports, everything.

        August 26, 2014 at 3:34 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      Neo-Darwinism at it's core states that all information in life is an emergent property of materialism. It is now known that quantum information found in molecular biology is not reducible to matter. Quantum information is found on a massive scale in molecular biology; in all DNA and protein molecule. Evolution simply cannot account for this.

      – evolution is completely and indisputably a myth meant to be consumed by God-deniers.

      August 26, 2014 at 3:44 pm |
      • ausphor

        The majority of Christians accept evolution as a proven theory taught in their schools and universities, so no it is not god deniers only. I try not to respond to you until you make an utterly false stupid statement which you have done yet again. I fed the troll, mea culpa!!!

        August 26, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          real disciples of Christ don't believe evolution so you're wrong again twink.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:05 pm |
        • ausphor

          wanderingtwit
          So please provide a list of the major universities, religious affiliated or not, that do not teach evolution. There are not a large number of creationist delusionists and yet you speak for all of them.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
        • niknakk

          You won't get a list from Wonderingfool because he is like all religious people I know.
          They are great at preaching to the choir, but get really mad and run away when confronted by someone asking for proof of the cr ap they spew.

          Only here with the evangelicals and over in the Middle East with the Taliban do you find people so backward that they convince themselves science is wrong and their little myth stories from the Stone Age are correct.

          A mind is a terrible thing to lose, to religion......

          August 26, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
        • LaBella

          real disciples of Christ don't believe evolution so you're wrong again twink.
          You are incorrect. Do some research on the subject. The only ones who reject it are the YEC.

          August 26, 2014 at 11:31 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          uhhhh..YOU better do some research.I am not YEC per se...I don tknow how old earth is in reality..except I know its more than 6,000 years..and I still dont believe in evolution....

          August 27, 2014 at 1:59 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          kermi doesn't believe in evolution but he has the sick twisted mind set that incest was culturally acceptable and refuses to admit that it has always been morally reprehensible. The creation myth should be enough to turn the average person off of the cults teaching but these fools get cheap thrill out of it because without it their entire fairy tale crumbles and they are forced to start using what brain has not been damaged by their cult.

          August 27, 2014 at 4:58 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      "Nobody has even "seen" the HIV virus (sic) – all they have are antibodies".
      – Meryl Dorey, Australian Vaccination-Skeptics Network says:

      Germ theory is completely and indisputably a myth meant to be consumed by Demon-deniers.

      August 26, 2014 at 4:12 pm |
      • niknakk

        Yet the first place Scot-bot would run to if he became seriously ill would be a hospital to use all that neo Darwinism fake science to heal him.

        It's amazing how clever god is that it lets us think we used our fake science to invent the computers and networks that we are using right now to communicate with each other, when it is really just the god switchboard that is doing it all.

        August 26, 2014 at 5:44 pm |
  13. igaftr

    scot
    ". Supernatural agency in creating life is much more logical"

    No it is not logical, until you can show this "supernatural agency" to exist...until then, it is not logical in the slightest.

    August 26, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
    • Theo Phileo

      If the supernatural does not exist, then one is left with the notion that the natural must be the cause of the natural. The problem with that is that nothing can create itself. Nothing in the physical universe owes its own existence to itself. This points outside of the natural realm for the source of the natural universe.

      August 26, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
      • Alias

        You forget that nothing can destroy itself either.

        August 26, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
      • ausphor

        Theo
        You ducked Doc's question on how the people, animals and plants on the ground, post Noah's ark managed to survive in a world that would be contaminated by high salt content in the water? Please explain other than it was more MAGIC.

        August 26, 2014 at 2:32 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          I didn't duck the question. I didn't see it.
          If you have a problem with the first 4 words of the Bible, then there's no way that you can accept that the whole story of the flood was a miracle. I'm no scientist, so I cannot answer how "scientifically" this or that could have happened. (AIG might, I don't know, I haven't been there in a while) Then again, there's no way for science to explain that which violates the natural laws anyway, such as the origins of the natural universe.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:40 pm |
        • ausphor

          I thought so, it was magic that kept the salt water from mixing with the fresh water, no wonder people have trouble believing you ridiculous creationists.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
        • Science Works

          Oh Theo – Hey diddle diddle the cat and the fiddle.....
          And the Cow jumped over the moon – right ?

          Or...

          http://www.nscl.msu.edu/general-public/news/2012/origin-life%E2%80%99s-most-crucial-isotope

          August 26, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "Please explain other than it was more MAGIC."

          When his initial premise is "God did it with Magic" then adding more magic to explain the inconsistancies is no great leap for him...

          August 26, 2014 at 2:59 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          @Ausphor
          How do you know the water was salt thousands of years ago? Do you have proof of this?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:37 pm |
        • ausphor

          wanderingtwit
          I know because my great, great, great, great, granddaddy told us so, they all lived to be over 900 years old, one actually made it to 1011 before he went t!ts up. My god your myths are so stupid they are fun.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:48 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Just as i thought, you blather on but have no rational response.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:07 pm |
        • ausphor

          wanderingtwit
          There is no rational response to someone that believes that there was a world wide flood and that people could live for 900 plus years. I was born in 1752 and though I lost a step or two, I still think I have another couple of hundred years or so. The absurdity of the bible stories are much more absurd than my contentions, Isn't it time YOU evolved just a little from your Neanderthal thinking?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:25 pm |
        • redzoa

          "How do you know the water was salt thousands of years ago? Do you have proof of this?"

          Whether the flood waters were salt or fresh, the issue is that there exist forms which are restricted to salt or fresh water; putting them in water with less or more salt kills the fish for essentially the same reasons we cannot drink sea water. Because creationists insist that all forms effectively existed both before and after the flood, there must have been environments that were wholly salt water and wholly fresh water. If the flood waters were salty, the fresh water forms would have died; alternatively, if the flood waters were fresh, then the salt water forms would have died. The remaining untenable requirement of the creationist position is that the left over species hyper-evolved far faster than evolution predicts in order to repopulate those environments in which forms had been killed due to an excess or insufficient amount of salt. This problem also extends to plants and a variety of invertebrates.

          August 26, 2014 at 7:03 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          ALSO need to add.since we are Creationsists..then GOD created all things....even the law of nature (for how can law of nature exist if there as nothing for it to impose itself upon?) thusly God is not limited by laws of nature...and since Creaitonists say God is the cause of the Flood..then certainly he can control all of the aspects/consequences of it....to do this is mere childs play when one considers God created the whole universe and everything in it.

          August 26, 2014 at 7:08 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "How do you know the water was salt thousands of years ago?"

          Right, I mean, who knows how those huge salt deposits got there and who cares about what geologists who actually study the planet have discovered, I mean, how do we really know the oceans weren't fresh spring water until Noah built a giant salt lick to coax the oxen and cattle aboard and then when the flood happened his giant salt lick salted the seas... right? right? If we don't know exactly how things were then maybe they were anyway I want them to be or maybe they didn't exist at all! Maybe i'm dreaming about typing right now in some dream within a dream within a dream within a fishbowl sitting on an aliens bathroom counter... right scot?

          August 26, 2014 at 7:05 pm |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        "The problem with that is that nothing can create itself."

        So here is the word problem: Some claim the universe is far to complex and must have had an even more complex creator to exist. We know however that energy can neither be created or destroyed, so the energy either always existed or was in fact created by someone or something that doesn't obey the laws of thermodynamics. Occams razor would certainly mean the choice would be that the universe has always existed since that is a far simpler explanation than to invent a more complex being that does not conform to known universal law and by the logic used to reach the God conclusion would then require a more complex being to have created God to explain the universe. Only a moron would claim this "points outside of the normal realm" thereby creating in their minds another universe outside of our universe to explain our universes existence.

        August 26, 2014 at 2:46 pm |
      • igaftr

        theo
        " then one is left with the notion that the natural must be the cause of the natural"

        There you go again with absolutes....the natural MUST be the cause of the natural.
        We do not know.
        The fact is that there is no evidence of any "supernatural" anything.
        You have simply leapt to another unjustified conclusion.
        It is just as possible that matter and energy has always existed in one form or another, and there are myriad other possibilities.

        One of the biggest problems with your "god" garbage, or any supernatural, is that those hypotheses do not offer any answers at all, and in fact create far more questions.

        We already know your idiotic response yesterday where you had a problem with people who admit they don't know, implying that you would rather make up crap (like the bible) than to admit your ignorance.

        August 26, 2014 at 2:52 pm |
      • ausphor

        Theo
        You seem to be absent over the lunch period almost daily, do you have to go flip hamburgers or run the deep fryer? Tell us what you think dark matter is, that it does or does not exist, and explain what happens when anti matter encounters matter. Also how Is life present at deep sea vents with little oxygen and zero sunlight, probably just magic, right?

        August 26, 2014 at 2:58 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Have you ever noticed that when a naturalistic explanation is proven factual, it tends to invalidate a prior supernatural explanation?
        What used to be considered signs of demonic possession we now recognize as epilepsy, schizophrenia or some other type of mental illness with real, natural causes.
        Just a coincidence though, right?

        August 26, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Everyone wants answers to Life's Persistent Questions. Supernatural explanations are available right away. It's fine if they are harmless placeholders, but sometimes there are people who will defend them to the death (usually the death of the one who comes up with a natural explanation).

          August 26, 2014 at 3:14 pm |
        • ausphor

          Doc
          Exactly, the apologists are probably quite busy trying to come up with some sort of ridiculous propositions to explain why the bible, the inerrant word of god, did not mention that there is life in all parts of the universe, maybe not like us but life none the less. Apologists have been scooting about trying to maintain the BS for 2000 years, like the sign says in the picture, religion is a myth-stake.

          August 26, 2014 at 3:18 pm |
        • ausphor

          Make that "Theology is a Myth-stake."

          August 26, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Mental disease is not the same as demonic possession and thus your argument is specious. What happened to you a year ago or so when there was still hope for you?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:11 pm |
        • joey3467

          Mental disease was the same as demonic possession right up until science proved that to be absurd. Which is the point of the original post that you ignored.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
      • kudlak

        Theo
        But just what supernatural agent should one believe is responsible when there is exactly the same amount of evidence for any of the creation stories as there is for the universe being the creation of magical pixies, a computer simulation game in some alien teenager's cell phone, or just the personal fantasy that you, the only single intelligent being that ever existed, have?

        Only actual evidence could separate any of these from things existing only in the human imagination, right?

        August 27, 2014 at 8:03 am |
  14. Løki

    Conservative view of everyone but themselves...

    So ya
    Thought ya might like to go to the show
    To feel the warm thrill of confusion
    That space cadet glow

    I've got some bad news for you sunshine
    Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel

    And they sent us along as a surrogate band
    And we're going to find out where you fans really stand

    Are there any queers in the theatre tonight?
    Get 'em up against the wall (against the wall)!
    There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me
    Get 'em up against the wall (against the wall)!

    That one looks Jewish and that one's a coon
    Who let all this riff raff into the room?
    There's one smoking a joint and another with spots
    If I had my way I'd have all of you shot

    August 26, 2014 at 1:57 pm |
    • Theo Phileo

      No conservative feels that way... Hitler maybe, but he was hardly a conservative.

      August 26, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
      • joey3467

        Then why is it that so many act that way?

        August 26, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          Hatred is not monopolized by those claiming to be conservative.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          "Hatred is not monopolized by those claiming to be conservative.
          -----------------–
          No you're absolutely right. It is however their 'thing'.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          There's a HUGE difference between hating that which is evil, and hating those who do evil things.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          That depends on the definition of evil.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • Rynomite

          Love the sinner, hate the sin, eh?

          To bad not everyone agrees that a crusty old collection of books actually contains a workable definition of evil.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          That depends on the definition of evil.
          ------------–
          Not really, because no matter the definition of evil, there is no excuse to hate an individual. Not even those in ISIL. We may hate what they do, but there's no reason to hate them personally.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          Love the sinner, hate the sin, eh?
          -------------------
          Well, that particular phrase isn't found in the Bible. Actually, God doesn't separate the sinner from his sins – when the sinner is inexorably linked to his sins, it is then that he feels the wrath of God. Men never know the exact condition of men's hearts, and our command is to love all men that we might win some to Christ. "If your enemy is hungry, feed him, and in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." This isn't some manner of torturous death, it's speaking in terms of purification. In the way that a smelter might heat a pot and skim off the impurities, when we love our enemies, we are doing the very thing that may turn them from being our enemy.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          "That depends on the definition of evil. //
          Not really, because no matter the definition of evil, there is no excuse to hate an individual."

          --------------------------
          I understand, but it's not what I meant.

          Conservatives are judgmental. In my comment I was expanding the definition of 'evil' to 'sinful', which is different to what you meant but one that is meaningful in context of Conservative intolerance.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:52 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Should everyone give up whatever religion they were raised in and follow your faith Theo? Is yours the "Right" one for sure? Is your religion the correct brand of Christianity that will get the heavenly rewards everyone always fights over? If so, how can you be so sure when there are so many thousands of faiths that you cannot have tried them all and thus may not know what you are missing? Are you claiming to "know" how the creator of the universe desires to be worshiped and if everyone would just get in line behind you and do as you do the world would be saved?

          August 26, 2014 at 2:54 pm |
        • ausphor

          Theo knows that there is only one TRUTH that applies to all of mankind and he THEO is the harbinger of that truth, do not believe at your everlasting peril.

          August 26, 2014 at 3:30 pm |
      • Alias

        Many feel that way, they just know better than to say it.

        August 26, 2014 at 2:04 pm |
      • Løki

        "No conservative feels that way" That is more disingenuous than usual for you Theo...

        August 26, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          Let's all go to Ferguson and hold a prayer vigil for BOTH Michael Brown AND the officer who shot him and see who gets angry.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          *Michael Brown's Family*

          August 26, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • LaBella

          That slapping sound is the sound a red herring makes when it hits the ground.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          No... It's relevant. No one knows what happened in that incident, and yet there seems to be a whole demographic who has already decided what happened based purely on the amount of melanin contained within skin, and they have expressed an ENORMOUS amount of hatred – and it wasn't conservatives who expressed hatred through rioting...

          August 26, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • LaBella

          Was it the conservative mindset that helped pull that trigger?
          Makes as much sense as your rioting theory.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • Rynomite

          Without actually researching the topic, I'm fairly certain we can probably count Michael Brown's family as religious conservatives regardless of their economic leanings....

          August 26, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Theo,
          How many unarmed white teens are killed by police or self-appointed vigilantes?
          The black community is disproportionately the target of police suspicion, disproportionately incarcerated, etc. As you say, we don't know what happened in this case but the statistics reveal a broader picture which should be considered a telling backdrop to the incident.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          @ santa...is your question referring to the white teens in ferguson..or all over USA? If all over usa..I googles and found quite a few of them....you got to remember, newspapers like sensation......there was recently a shooting in Utah of a white guy by a black cop....it hardly got any press coverage....

          August 26, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          I did mean nation-wide. I hadn't previously heard of the Dillon Taylor case so I guess it's not unheard of, but the police in that case were responding to reports of a man with a gun which may heighten police stress levels more than jay-walking.
          My broader point is the disproportionate rates of stop, arrest, incarceration, and killing of black men.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          Was it the conservative mindset that helped pull that trigger?
          ----------------
          Do you know 100% what happened? No, you don't. There are only two people who know what really happened, and one of them is dead. How do you know that the officer wasn't defending himself? I know the media has been hammering the phrase "unarmed teen." So? When I was taking martial arts back in school, I knew some "unarmed teens" who didn't NEED a weapon to kill someone...

          Here's the point. We ALL have to rid our minds of whatever pre-conceived notions that we may have and look at the facts.

          Who are the people who have already condemned the officer without knowing the facts??? Were they conservatives?

          August 26, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
        • LaBella

          Why did you ignore the second part of my post, Theo? You know, "Makes as much sense as your rioting theory."?

          Because your post was meant from the beginning to be divisive?

          August 26, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Kermit
          According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, one in three black men can expect to go to prison in their lifetime. Individuals of color have a disproportionate number of encounters with law enforcement.
          A report by the Department of Justice found that blacks and Hispanics were approximately three times more likely to be searched during a traffic stop than white motorists.
          African Americans were twice as likely to be arrested and almost four times as likely to experience the use of force during encounters with the police.
          The U.S. Sentencing Commission stated that in the federal system black offenders receive sentences that are 10 percent longer than white offenders for the same crimes.
          The Sentencing Project reports that African Americans are 21 percent more likely to receive mandatory-minimum sentences than white defendants and are 20 percent more like to be sentenced to prison.

          The shooting that set of the riots is just the straw that broke the camel's back.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:25 pm |
      • fascinatedspectator

        Hitler was INDEED a "conservative" ! He was a fascist conservative not that different from our current GOP leaders who only see ONE self-serving way of thinking and will die before they so much as "consider" a different point of view!

        August 26, 2014 at 3:39 pm |
    • LaBella

      Love Pink Floyd's In The Flesh.

      August 26, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
      • Rynomite

        The Wall was a great Album. My money still likes Animals the best with "Sheep" being my favorite song.

        August 26, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • LaBella

          I saw them during their 'Animals' tour. Breathtaking.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
        • Rynomite

          I'm jealous. I was only 3 during that tour! I did get to see them (minus Roger Waters) for the Division Bell Tour, and I have seen both Rogers and Gilmour solo. Not the same though....

          August 26, 2014 at 2:40 pm |
        • LaBella

          I was...somewhat older. Soldier Field. Fantastic.

          August 26, 2014 at 3:35 pm |
        • Rynomite

          Soldier... ahh saw the Dead there shortly before Jerry departed.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:27 pm |
        • LaBella

          Soldier has hosted a lot of great acts over the years. What was that, like 1995?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:32 pm |
        • igaftr

          '87 "Momentary lapse of reason" tour, Veterans Stadium in Philly. Blew every concert I had ever seen before or since away.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:43 pm |
        • Rynomite

          Yeah 95. I think it was just a few months before Garcia died.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:13 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Another fine story about crooked cops that hasn't been reported by CNN:
      Back in March, an African American man named Victor White was arrested for allegedly being involved in a fight at a convenience store. He was cuffed behind his back and thrown in the back of a police car in Louisiana where he died of a gunshot wound.
      The official police statement was that he somehow managed to sneak a gun into the car and then shot himself in the back.
      Autopsy results released just a few days ago directly contradict the official police report.
      The bullet entered White's chest, punctured his lung and heart and then exited his armpit area. There wasn't even a wound in his back.
      The official reports still classify his death as a suicide.

      August 26, 2014 at 2:48 pm |
      • LaBella

        Well, it is Louisiana.

        August 26, 2014 at 3:42 pm |
  15. bchev

    I have a new theory to put forward- awanderingscot is a clever genius. He's not a theist at all, he's a science student who has found a way to highly motivate people who are used to looking up the information and obviously have the time to respond, and is tricking su into doing his research for him. It shall be called troll-sourcing, and it's really quite brilliant.

    August 26, 2014 at 1:19 pm |
    • Løki

      'Troll-sourcing'... kudos

      August 26, 2014 at 1:29 pm |
    • Alias

      This is not a new theory.

      August 26, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
  16. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    The incessant sparring here is well illustrated in a recent Pew study that is used in Chris Stedman's article. (Thank you Vic for the original link.)

    How Americans Feel About Religious Groups
    http://www.pewforum.org/files/2014/07/Views-of-Religious-Groups-full-PDF-for-web.pdf

    White Evangelical Christians rating of atheists: 25 (the lowest number in the survey)
    White Evangelical Christians rating of themselves: 82 (the second highest number in the survey)

    'When asked about other non-Christian groups, evangelicals tend to express more negative views. White evangelicals assign Buddhists an average rating of 39, Hindus 38, Muslims 30 and atheists 25. The chilliness between evangelicals and atheists goes both ways. Atheists give evangelical Christians a cold rating of 28 on average."

    Atheists rating of Evangelical Christians: 28
    Atheists rating of themselves: 82

    Jews rating of themselves: 89 (the highest number in the survey ironic, given the long history of self-deprecating Jewish comics)

    It all puts me in mind of he immortal Tom Lehrer's "National Brotherhood Week".
    –https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUwbZ9AlSPI–

    Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
    And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
    And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
    And everybody hates the Jews.

    Perhaps these days, based on the survey, it is more accurately, though less melodiously, stated:

    Oh, the Evangelicals hate the Muslims,
    and the Catholics hate the Muslims,
    And the Muslims hate the Jews,
    And everybody hates the atheists.

    What's sad (and why it's still so funny) is that this song is so timeless.

    August 26, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      National Brotherhood Week by Tom Lehrer

      Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
      And the black folks hate the white folks.
      To hate all but the right folks
      Is an old established rule.

      But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
      Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
      // See Cassius Clay and Mrs. Wallace dancing cheek to cheek // (Alternative lyric – Oslo 1967)
      It's fun to eulogize
      The people you despise,
      As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

      Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
      And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
      All of my folks hate all of your folks,
      It's American as apple pie.

      But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
      New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
      Step up and shake the hand
      Of someone you can't stand.
      You can tolerate him if you try.

      Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
      And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
      And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
      And everybody hates the Jews.

      But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
      It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
      Be nice to people who
      Are inferior to you.
      It's only for a week, so have no fear.
      Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

      August 26, 2014 at 1:20 pm |
  17. Løki

    Regarding the creationist troll...

    Two studies published in 2013 and 2014 have found that people who are identified as trolls tend to have dark personality traits and show signs of sadism, antisocial behavior, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism.

    The 2014 study found that trolls operate as agents of chaos on the Internet, exploiting hot-button issues to make users appear overly emotional or foolish in some manner. If an unfortunate person falls into their trap, trolling intensifies for further, merciless amusement. This is why novice Internet users are routinely admonished, "Do not feed the trolls!" The 2013 study found that trolls often have a high expectation of what it means to be successful, which is higher than they are able to attain, and this results in them resenting others who think they are successful but who fall below their standards.

    August 26, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      This is why novice Internet users are routinely admonished, "Do not feed the trolls!"
      ----------------
      I can't understand why non-novices feel obliged to respond to every single one of his tediously repeti,tious posts.

      August 26, 2014 at 1:22 pm |
      • Løki

        Exactly

        August 26, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
  18. awanderingscot

    On calculating evolution:

    Excerpt: Their results? They calculated it would take six million years for a single base change to match the target and spread throughout the population, and 216 million years to get both base changes necessary to complete the eight base binding site. Note that the entire time span for our evolution from the last common ancestor with chimps is estimated to be about six million years. Time enough for one mutation to occur and be fixed, by their account.
    To be sure, they did say that since there are some 20,000 genes that could be evolving simultaneously, the problem is not impossible. But they overlooked this point. Mutations occur at random and most of the time independently, but their effects are not independent. (Random) Mutations that benefit one trait (are shown to) inhibit another (Negative Epistasis; Lenski e-coli after 50,000 generations).
    – The Real Barrier to Unguided Human Evolution – Ann Gauger – April 25, 2012

    August 26, 2014 at 12:04 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Trolling trolling trolling, please stop the stupid trolling. (btw: this article has nothing to do with evolution...perhaps you could attempt to keep up)

      August 26, 2014 at 12:26 pm |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        Keep trollin', trollin', trollin',
        Though logic you've a hole in,
        Keep them scotties trollin' Strawhide!
        Don't try to understand 'em,
        Just soap and snow and sand' em,
        Soon we'll be trollin higher than most.
        Boy my heart could fit a bull in'
        My true love will be trollin', be waiting at the end of my post.

        Troll 'em on, troll 'em up,
        Troll 'em up, troll 'em out,
        Troll 'em on, troll 'em out Strawhide!
        Troll 'em out, troll 'em in
        Troll 'em in, troll 'em out,
        Cut 'n paste, troll 'em in Strawhide!...

        August 26, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
        • LaBella

          Lol. Brilliant.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:35 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Perfect.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:58 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Trolling, trolling trolling, I made it out of clay... and when it's dry and ready, oh trolling I will play!

          August 26, 2014 at 5:01 pm |
    • igaftr

      scot
      Considering the fact that they made a calculation that favors their bias, with incomplete inputs to the formula, their entire article is bogus. They did not take into account several factors. By the way, even if their calculations for the portion they mentioned is true, does not refute evolution, just one theoretical aspect of evolution.

      August 26, 2014 at 12:42 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      "A rather infamous incident occurred when Gauger reported on her work at the Wistar Retrospective Symposium, 2007, in Boston, Massachusetts. She discussed “leaky growth” in microbial colonies at high densities, leading to horizontal transfer of genetic information, and announced that under such conditions she had actually found a novel variant that seemed to lead to enhanced colony growth. Gunther Wagner, a real scientist, asked the obvious question: “So, a beneficial mutation happened right in your lab?” at which point the moderator halted questioning – Gauger has earlier argued that any evolutionary change is non-adaptive."

      Caught in her own lie, she shuts up and runs away.

      August 26, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        You subscribe to alot of hearsay i notice. Furthermore, what is the point? Do you have proof that the frequencies of alleles are set and bound hard? Didn't think so.

        August 26, 2014 at 4:43 pm |
  19. awanderingscot

    “The formation within geological time of a human body by the laws of physics (or any other laws of similar nature), starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components.” – Kurt Godel

    August 26, 2014 at 11:59 am |
    • evidencenot

      "Those Jesus Freaks
      Well, they're friendly but
      The shlt they believe
      Has got their minds all shut up
      An' they don't even care
      When the church takes a cut
      Ain't it bleak when you got so much nothin'

      - Frank Zappa, "The Meek Shall Inherit Nothin'"

      August 26, 2014 at 5:04 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        ole Frank's not with us anymore is he?

        August 26, 2014 at 5:16 pm |
        • joey3467

          Neither is ole Kurt, so what is your point?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
  20. awanderingscot

    “Darwin’s theory is easily the dumbest idea ever taken seriously by science." Granville Sewell – Professor Of Mathematics – University Of Texas – El Paso

    August 26, 2014 at 11:57 am |
    • niknakk

      We have been waiting like since forever for any evidence of your creationism myth.

      Face it bro, you have bought off on a great big lie.

      Religion is the biggest, longest lasting and most lucrative Ponzi scheme ever invented.
      And you are it's Mark, BeamMeUpScotty.

      August 26, 2014 at 12:03 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        Creationism has been around much longer than your silly evolution myth and will be around long after your myth is dead.

        August 26, 2014 at 12:08 pm |
        • niknakk

          And you still have no proof for it.

          And who's creationism myth anyway?
          The Greeks, or the 'Norse, or the Hindu?

          What evidence do you have your creationism myth is the correct one out of the thousands out there?
          Oh yeah, your Mommy and Daddy told you it was when you were a kid......

          August 26, 2014 at 12:15 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Agency is much stronger than randomness no matter what flavor.

          August 26, 2014 at 12:22 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          So what you're saying is that there is a fool born every minute.
          Evolution speaks to our beginnings and dates back to our beginnings, so as long as we've been able to form words we've been able to formulate stories such as the creation myth of the bible....human's have vivid imaginations.

          August 26, 2014 at 12:24 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Niknak
          Have you been able to demonstrate that even a single protein can arise by purely material processes yet?

          August 26, 2014 at 12:27 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          awanderingdolt: You're dodging again!! How about you pull up your big boy panties and answer the questions posed to you first or are you incapable of doing so?

          August 26, 2014 at 12:35 pm |
        • niknakk

          Scotty,
          Have you been able to prove anything from your creation story?

          There is nothing in the Babble about protein, DNA, Thermo dynamics or anything else even remotely connected to modern science.
          Hell, they didn't even mention Asia and the millions of people living there.

          Why?

          Because the Bronze Age goat herders had no idea of any of that when they made up your myth from the remnants of the myths that existed before in that small area of the world.

          August 26, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
        • igaftr

          scot
          All amino acids and many protiens have been proven to occur naturally. Glycine has been found in the dust trail behind a comet, proving that this one major building block, that ALL life on Earth uses, is naturally occurring.

          What evidence do you have of the creation hypothesis?

          August 26, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          It may be relevant that some protein synthesis is directed without nucelic acid templates in various microorganisms. This suggests, or at least allows, that separate protein and nucleic acid worlds may have existed at one time.

          August 26, 2014 at 12:42 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Protein? By purely material processes? Prove it. You can't.

          August 26, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
        • igaftr

          scot
          Creation....prove it...you can't.

          you provide the evidence for your creation hypothesis, and I will show you where protien chains have been proven they can occur naturally.

          You first scot, since you have been asked countless times by many, many people, and yet all you do is throw pebbles at valid science, misquote scientist, quote non-scientists as if they were scientists...on and on with your smoke and mirro tactics.

          You first scot.

          August 26, 2014 at 1:11 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "Agency is much stronger than randomness no matter what flavor."

          So what you are telling me is that rainbows might be made by leprechauns or they might be made by unicorns, just don't go claiming it was light refraction...

          August 26, 2014 at 1:23 pm |
        • joey3467

          god makes rainbows, haven't you read the Bible?

          August 26, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Evolution (speciation) cannot be proven and is a tired and worn out myth on the brink of extinction. On the horizon are new sciences such as synthetic biology which although in it's infancy creates an even more compelling argument for creationism. If intelligent agency on earth can create sustainable life, it is not hard to conceive supernatural agency creating life. Supernatural agency in creating life is much more logical than the miracles of your superst-itious myth producing life.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:04 pm |
        • joey3467

          it is not hard to conceive supernatural agency creating life.

          It is not hard to conceive of a supernatural agency doing anything. That is why they put it in the bible, it is the best they could come up with at the time. To ignore reality in favor of what the bible says is stupidity of the highest degree.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Protobionts.

          August 26, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
        • Science Works

          Hey Scot – the myth eh?

          Published on Apr 16, 2012
          Cardinal Pell, the highest figure in the Catholic Church in Australia, admits that the idea of Adam & Eve is a mythological one. Richard Dawkins, quite rightly, asks 'If there is no Adam & Eve then where does Original Sin come from?" No Adam & Eve, no Original Sin, no basis for Christianity ??
          {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlKbDnHDlJc}

          August 26, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        ahh butyou believe that something came from nothing for NO reason eh? then whats the point?

        August 26, 2014 at 4:06 pm |
        • colin31714

          Kermit, I know of no cosmologist who says "the Universe popped into existence out of nothing." What they say is that, as far as our current knowledge can take us, it appears that the observable Universe originated in the big bang. We simply do not know what happened before that, whether it was preceded by a Big Crunch, whether time itself started in the big bang, such that there was no "before" the big bang, and/or whther our universe is one of many (perhaps an infinite number) in a multi-verse.

          We just don't know. BUT no cosmologist simply says "well, it popped out of nothing." The only people I know who make that claim are Christians, who claim their god popped out of nothing, or was "always there" – its functional equivalent.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:15 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          THise who don't add the God equation certainly do ultimately believe it came from nothing...and for NO reason....here is the thing...one would say "well it started with amino acids" (hypothetically speaking, follow the argument with me a moment ok?) so then where did those amino acids come from....they came from stars...where did they come from? and so on and so on....ultimately you have nothing.....and then there is the reaons....there isa cause...if there isn't one..then all of universe is pointless..and so are our lives..sure..you can make your life whatever you want...but then we get to the athics of morality....and value of life..which is then all relative and thus really a deception.....and its no wonder many people kill themselves...they truly see no point in their lives...cause according to evolution..there is none

          August 26, 2014 at 4:27 pm |
        • colin31714

          That's correct, there is none. Get over it and enjoy the 80 odd years you are given.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          woW..you care for NO ONE even yourself..how sad a life Yo umust live..I am not going to stoop to that level..I HAVE a life that I ENJOY and have reason to live....I don't wanna be depressed like you

          August 26, 2014 at 4:34 pm |
        • colin31714

          Who said I am depressed? quite the opposite. I am generally a very happy person. I am also secure enough not to have to invent fairy tales because I am afraid of my own mortality.

          Look, the Universe is what it is – it does not have to conform to human desires, however cold and discomforting that might be.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:42 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          imnot afraid fomy own mortality..IM quite happy too..where does yoruhappiness come from? made up views of your own self worth and dignity? WHY do humans have dignity..why DEMAND dignity if there really is none in the evolutionary process?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:45 pm |
        • colin31714

          Because I get pleasure form my friends and those I love; I take great pleasure in understanding the natural world and the universe and I am constantly amazed at how extraordinarily complex it is. I don't need a god, ghost or goblin to give me dignity. I love life and hope to live as long as possible. My morality is not predicated upon a cosmic god looking over my shoulder. I live by the simple code of not unnecessarily harming others and of doing a little to aid the other species on this planet. I need no god for that.

          How sad it must be to have such a low opinion of oneself that you must believe in a superior being to have any sense of self worth. Why not spend the little bit of time this Universe grants you living and enjoying life; not waste it in a futile chase for an eternity that simply does not exist.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:03 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Because I get pleasure form my friends and those I love; I take great pleasure in understanding the natural world and the universe and I am constantly amazed at how extraordinarily complex it is< I love these things too..but they don't give you dignty...they don't define human dignity and morality and purpose for life...oh..and I see no worth in myself? IM sorry..but I DO see worth in myself..and sorry if it DOES include a God...what makes that so bad? as I said...YOU giving yourself worth is only a deception..since there really is no purpose in evolution....its actually kinda sad you have to make it up for your own..then thrash those who use a God to give them worth (giving yourself worth breeds arrogance and evilness)

          August 26, 2014 at 5:10 pm |
        • colin31714

          No Kermit, you don't. You simply the complexity of the Universe down to a soundbite "God did it." In doing so, you miss out on a lot. For example, the beauty of the mystery of life on Earth, how it arose, evolved, underwent periodic collapse and came to be what it is today. You ignore all this and convince yourself that it was all created in six days. How small minded – to rely on Bronze Age Jewish mythology for your 21st Century worldview.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:16 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          OMG what are you..the thought police??? I DO marvel at Gods Creaiton and all..IM a photographer (even though I am legally blind in one eye, poor eyesite in the other, if YOU had seen my photography youd probably eat your own words!

          August 26, 2014 at 5:23 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I still see complexity in the world..and how it was created....don't be so firgging arrogant to make yourself the thought police of my mind

          August 26, 2014 at 5:24 pm |
        • joey3467

          perhaps there is no point kermit.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          and there you have it..if no point..why live? as I said in recent post..sure you can make something of your own life..but if there really is no point..your making it something is really a deception.....and that's why so many people commit suicide..NO point whatsoever and no true worth of value in humanity.....

          August 26, 2014 at 4:28 pm |
        • joey3467

          Why live? What a stupid question. I find life to be highly enjoyable despite not believing in god.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          right..you have givenyour self your own value...however, with no God theer is no value and thus youre only deceiving yourself by making your own

          August 26, 2014 at 4:35 pm |
        • igaftr

          "and there you have it..if no point..why live"
          The dimwit view of existance.

          There is likely no point to existance, we simply are.
          As Buddha taught, live in the now, in the location around you. Help others. Give of yourself. Try to make life better for all around you.

          And why not...?

          Just because we exist does not mean there is any reason for us to live, but there is no reason for us to die before our time.

          For someone who claims to have studied psychology, you certainly have a myopic view of things.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:33 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Just because we exist does not mean there is any reason for us to live, but there is no reason for us to die before our time. how do you know there is dying before our time? how do we know when it is "our time?" and how is it dim witted...Im soryr..but I have reason to live and I live in the here and now..I don't see it as the ONLY time....

          August 26, 2014 at 4:37 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          There is likely no point to existance, we simply are.<-exactly..so why lie to yourself and try to make a reason...why not just go ki ll yourself? all of us? why don't we just do that....?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:37 pm |
        • joey3467

          kermit that is nothing but your opinion, and fortunately for me, I don't share it.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:38 pm |
        • joey3467

          If anything the point of existence is to pass your genes on to the next generation.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:39 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          wow...what words of wisdom..thanks for sinking us down in level of worth and dignity as a human being..with tta response we shouldn't really have laws either..why worry about murder? life has no worth, really

          August 26, 2014 at 4:42 pm |
        • joey3467

          with no God theer is no value and thus youre only deceiving yourself by making your own

          I view this as you inventing a god so that you can deceive yourself into thinking that your life somehow gets value from a god that doesn't actually exist.

          August 26, 2014 at 4:41 pm |
        • igaftr

          "why not just go ki ll yourself?"

          You are the one who thinks that there is some afterlife, so why delay...why aren't you walking around sending people off to see your god kermit?
          Why don't you do yourself the best favor you can and go see your god now?

          What did you REALLY study in school, if anything kermit?

          August 26, 2014 at 4:49 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Mygod y ou are so dense..I thought you were after facts...by questioning...you know you don't get answers by ASSUMING do you?? YOU are so ignorant of my belief of the afterlife its sad...and even more sad you make up BS about my beliefs of which you know nothing about....I thought ALSO if you read my posts youd connect the dots and see how I HAVEBEEN saying that we have valuye HERE as well and have PURPOSE and REASON HERE! I am NOT judge to take mY life into MY own hands and determine when I should die.......you are ranting and raving about me without merit..since you don't seem to ever bother to ASK me about MY belifs....to get answers and facts..you must QUESTION...not assume everything

          August 26, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • igaftr

          first off...I am not ranting nor raving. Secondly, I have interacted with you enough to know what you have at least claimed to believe in the past...this is not my first rodeo with you.
          I know you to be quite delusional, the evidence from your posts strongly suggests you are lying about studying psychology, as your communication skills are horrible ( communication skills are paramount in psychology), and many of the things you have posted make actual mental health professionals cringe. If you actually do work in psychology, your posts show you must be extremely poor at it, as you do not ever exhibit any empathy, or ability to think outside your delusions.

          Why did you come back anyway, you said you were leaving...and there was much rejoicing

          August 26, 2014 at 5:03 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          so when a person is in the field of psychology he is ONLY allowed to write in ONE way to everyone? LMAO..WHO made you the firgging king of communication..this is a frigging BLOG and I write fast and furious..so sure me for not being a psychologist in this blg...had this been a psychology blog I would have written different...the FACT is you are STILL assuming and nOT bothering to clarify things..you don't know me as well as yo uthink...as per your comments about my supposed beliefs

          August 26, 2014 at 5:06 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Did I say I was never coming back?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:07 pm |
        • AtheistSteve

          People like you keep insisting that we believe that the universe came from nothing(we don't) and yet that's exactly where your version of reality comes from. God just 'poofs' the universe into being from nothing. A God that you claim has 'always' existed and has no beginning.The scientific model of the earliest period of time at the beginning of the expansion of our universe posits an incredibly tiny, immensely energetic and dense point in 3 dimensional space. The origin of this 'singularity' is unknown but it seems natural to assume it originated from a region 'outside' the boundaries of our pocket of spacetime. This outer region could likewise have always existed, spawning an endless series of 'universes' that expand, cool and fizzle out. The only major difference between the two views is the difference between asking 'how' or 'why'. The 'how' question doesn't require agency or purpose to account for an effect. Merely that the material properties of this mega-universe result in the formation of endlessly spawning Big Bangs. The 'why' question does assume agency and purpose with everything emerging from nothing and all material properties within this universe are spawned wholecloth from the will of God alone.
          There is nothing to confirm either view but the one you hold is so much smaller, so much more limited than mine. Your pitiful universe is alone and adrift in and endless expanse of utterly nothing. Mine is awash in an infinite froth of roiling activity.
          So what's the point? There isn't one. The only reason for asking that question is to stroke your ego. In the grand scheme of things we don't matter in the least. Outside the small collection of family, friends and acquaintances in yours or my tiny spheres, nobody cares about us. People in the next town don't care about you or me. The planet couldn't care less about us. The galaxy couldn't care less about us and the entire freaking universe is oblivious to our pitiful existence. But you, you are in a one on one relationship with your supposed creator of all things. Get over yourself already.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:09 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          In the grand scheme of things we don’t matter in the least. Outside the small collection of family, friends and acquaintances in yours or my tiny spheres, nobody cares about us.<–so whats the point in being here? why not off ourselves? no one cares...according to you..

          August 26, 2014 at 5:13 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Kermi = "right..you have givenyour self your own value...however, with no God theer is no value and thus youre only deceiving yourself by making your own"

          That is only a sad statement of YOUR existence.... requiring an imaginary god to give your life value... how sad.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:09 pm |
        • joey3467

          Kermit are you suggesting that if it could be proven to you that god does not exist that your response would be to kill yourself?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:14 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          UH...don't you al lbeieve you cannot prove a negative?? lol as for the proving God does not exist..no one can do that..NO man proved God existed to me..WHY would anyone be so frigging arrogant to assume they can disprove Gods existence to me?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:20 pm |
        • AtheistSteve

          I care Kermy. No grand overarching purpose or reason required. It's my life and I intend to enjoy it while it lasts. Killing myself or others is just stupid. Why would I want to cut short my existence or someone elses when it is already incredibly brief. You suggest we waste and squander the few precious moments we have. The tiny sphere of influence with people I care about is sufficient. You said above that your belief in an afterlife gives THIS life meaning and purpose. Why is that? Your view of this mortal life is just one where we are here simply to wipe our feet before the REAL party begins. In that light you make this life practically meaningless.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:26 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I have not implied youre wasting your time..IM simply saying you deceive yourselves to attempt to make a point/purpose/meaning, when according to evolution and no god, there is none....and if that's the case..why have morals? why think humans have dignity....if there is no point, reason or such..then there is no dignity and thus murder isn't morally wrong then...its only deception...as I said..I enjoy this life as well...I love it...I live it to the fullest...why? Cause God would have me do it...Jesus says in John 10:10 "I have come so that you may have life to overflowing" and Psalms 23 says "My cup overflows"

          August 26, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
        • joey3467

          It is a hypothetical question, why are you afraid to answer it? If for any reason whatsoever you stopped believing in god would you kill yourself? I don't think you would do it.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:27 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          the hypothetical question is really irrelevant..since I have knowledge God exists anyways....I have no reason to even consider the hypothetical question for myself

          August 26, 2014 at 5:41 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          kermi: I've been watching Steve type to you and as always I support him but that's not the point here...
          Just because you fail to see how we can have a purposeful life without something more after death, doesn't mean you're right.
          Every morning I wake up to Steve beside me in this world and I sincerely hope to for the rest of my life-that is purpose in this world. We do good deeds and do our best in the here and now-that is purpose in this world. We love, we hurt, we deal with grief....all things that give life meaning. Instead of sitting back and worrying about whether a god exists (since none have ever been proven to), we make the best of every minute we can while we still are fortunate to be breathing.

          You keep asking why people don't off themselves...it seems to me that that question is much better suited to you...you are the one who thinks there is a better place to go after you take your last breath, so why the wait? Why not go to your so-called perfect god now and avoid its fallen creation all together?

          August 26, 2014 at 5:34 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          yeah...butin reality....with evolution and no God..there really IS no point..youre only making it up..as for offing myself..i already dsaid it twice now....first, Im not the judge of my life to determine when I should go...2...There is a purpose and reason for ME to be HERE..and I don't always see it....which is why IM not the one to determine when I should off myself or such.....IM waiting my time..IM patient....

          August 26, 2014 at 5:44 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Such is your opinion and fortunately, you don't get to judge what gives another persons life meaning.
          You are the only one in control of your life-no god has EVER been proven, so stop passing the buck and making it seem like you're so special and so much more deserving because you have an imaginary friend that you call god and merely assume it to be the god of the bible...that is Egotistical and Arrogant.
          I'll take charge of my own purpose and not worry about your opinion or that of the god you claim but can't prove exists-that is all it is-baseless but an opinion none the less.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          for the last frigging time..STOP making up the BS that I think IM more special and more deserving than anyone else..I am not.....

          August 26, 2014 at 6:03 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Wow kermi, it's not making things up!!! You are the one who believes that you have this special relationship with this god and that after this life you will get to spend eternity with it...if that's not egotistical and arrogant, I'm not certain what is!!
          As for you thinking you're more special, regardless of how you twist it, obviously you do or you wouldn't spew hatred at others who disagree with you or who do things you think are sinning.
          Maybe you're too ignorant and blind to see it for what it is, but the rest of us are not.

          August 26, 2014 at 7:59 pm |
        • LaBella

          Communication is key. If one cannot write properly, one should not accuse others of being dense when one's own writing resembles a word salad thrown up by a five year old, served up with the ellipses that fail to connect one thought with another.
          Formality of the forum is not the issue; the failure to communicate is.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:35 pm |
        • AtheistSteve

          I don't get it Kermy. Evolution explains how my species arose from earlier forms. It has nothing to do with the motivations behind how I choose to live my life. Why conflate something so irrelevant to my day to day existence into some kind of driving force. I guess in one sense we did evolve as social animals. I suppose I'm just behaving like one.
          But please whatever you do don't let go of your God belief. Sounds to me like losing that would cause you to become a raving lunatic psychopath.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:51 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          There is no "point" except what we decide on, both collectively and individually.

          August 26, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          EXACTLY..and since there is none (according to the conclusion of evolution and where we came from)...why deceive yourselves in making one?

          August 26, 2014 at 6:02 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          People aren't deceiving themselves when they enjoy life, enjoy seeing others enjoy life, and decide to order their lives around trying to make that work out for everyone in some sustainable way.

          August 26, 2014 at 6:11 pm |
        • believerfred

          AtheistSteve
          "In the grand scheme of things we don't matter in the least."
          =>confirmation that atheists like to make stuff up when all else fails.
          =>Danger Will Robinson Danger! AtheistSteve has confused scope with purpose or believes size matters. Testing the claim we see that Joseph Stalin was 5'4" or 160cm while a Blue Whale checks in at 30 meters and 170 tonnes. Although significantly smaller little atheist Joe made a bigger splash than the whale.

          "Outside the small collection of family, friends and acquaintances in yours or my tiny spheres, nobody cares about us."
          =>Accordingly atheist Mao had no problem removing human obstacles to communism. And, nobody cared except family and friends

          "The planet couldn't care less about us. The galaxy couldn't care less about us"
          =>and AtheistSteve likes to get on Moses for his anthropomorphic revelation of life !

          "But you, you are in a one on one relationship with your supposed creator of all things. Get over yourself already."
          =>finally some real truth. Yes, you can objectively confirm that millions upon million of humans have a one on one relationship with their creator. This cannot be disputed and is proven fact.
          =>AtheistSteve please don't tell me you are with relationship police and deny my right to love so long as I don't hurt anyone

          August 26, 2014 at 7:19 pm |
        • austin929

          Christard? Truth Prevails!

          there is nothing wrong with saying retarded. its an adjective...............not a diagnosis.

          August 27, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
    • kudlak

      scot
      Granville Sewell is the guy who wrote The American Spectator articles where he claimed that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics, right? He may be a mathematician, but he's no physicist. As long as there is a sun providing a constant feed of new energy, the planet is not a closed system. I don't know about Texas, but kids learn that here in elementary school.

      August 27, 2014 at 8:14 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.