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June 29th, 2010
03:57 PM ET
Italy fights for crucifixes in classroomsEditor's Note: Click here for an update on this story Italy will fight Wednesday against a European court ruling that crucifixes in classrooms violate students' right to freedom of religion. The European Court of Human Rights found unanimously last November that the display of a particular religious symbol - such as the Christian cross - in a classroom "restricted the right of parents to educate their children in conformity with their convictions, and the right of children to believe or not to believe." But the court agreed in January to hear Italy's appeal. Ten other European governments, dozens of European lawmakers and half a dozen non-governmental organizations have also gotten involved in the appeal.
The original case was brought by an Italian woman, Soile Lautsi, who objected to the crucifixes on the walls in her two sons' classrooms. She fought her way through the Italian legal system starting in 2001, arguing that she wanted to raise her children as secular, according to court documents. Italian courts ruled earlier that the cross was a symbol of Italy's history and culture, prompting Lautsi to take her case to the European court in Strasbourg, France. It awarded her 5,000 euros ($7,400) in damages in November. The court does not have the power to force Italy to take down the representations of Jesus on the cross, but if its ruling stands and Italy does not comply, the door would be open for others to sue on the same grounds, court spokesman Stefano Piedimonte told CNN. Leading Catholic figures expressed astonishment and anger at the ruling last year. The Italian Conference of Bishops called it "cause for bitterness and many perplexities." "It does not take into account the fact that in Italy the display of the crucifix in public places is in line with the recognition of the principles of the Catholicism as 'part of the historical patrimony of the Italian people,' as stated in the Vatican/Italy agreement of 1984," the bishops said in a written statement. Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re told the leading Italian daily La Repubblica he could not understand it, and that no one with common sense could have expected it. "When I think that we are talking about a symbol, the crucifix, an image that cannot but be the emblem of a universally shared humanity, I not only feel disappointed but also sadness and grief," he said. "The crucifix is the sign of a God that loves man to the point of giving up his life for him. It is a God that teaches us to learn to love, to pay attention to each man ... and to respect the others, even those who belong to a different culture or religion. "How could someone not share such a symbol?" Seventeen judges will hear the appeal Wednesday and will issue a ruling at a later date. The governments of Russia, Greece, Armenia, Romania, Lithuania, Malta, San Marino, Bulgaria, Monaco and Cyprus are also involved in the appeal, the court said. The European Court of Human Rights was set up in Strasbourg by the Council of Europe Member States in 1959 to deal with alleged violations of the 1950 European Convention on Human Rights.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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It's quite amusing that the poll on the front page, do you think that religious icons shouldn't be allowed the class room is now more for that "no, there should be icons". But I am sure that each theist wants theirs and only theirs up. Some Christians would go balistic if a Muslim cresent was up, some Muslims would go nuts if a Mogen David were up. How hypocritical and ignorant, and typical.
There is no religion in the world today that is more tolorating than the Christianinty (Catholics to be precise). Let this woman take his children to any muslem country -under European Union- and sue the government on such an issue, then the outcome will not be in the news.
If Christianity is "the most tolerant religion" then we should all be scared!
Once again, the crucifix is a symbol used by the RCC to keep us on their 2000 year old guilt trip that says some simple, illiterate preacher man died for our sins wherein fact he did not. He simply got too zealous in the Jewish temple, was captured by the Roman guards and crucified. There was no last supper, no trial and no resurrection. As with all rabble-rousers in the Roman Empire, he was nailed to a tree and later buried in shallow grave with the rest of the rabble who broke the Roman peace. Bottom line- post the work of hard working students on the walls not some archiac guilt symbol.
Isn't a crucifix a carved image, aka Idol? Just curious if Jesus had been killed in the electric chair would you wear a little electric chair around your neck? If Jesus was killed by hanging would you hang a noose on your wall?
carl,
No need to argue where to place the crucifix. It shouldn't even be used by Christians or any one else in the first place.
1) an image or symbol that is an object of intense devotion, veneration, or worship is an idol. thus, the crucifix is an idol. God warns against even making an image before which people bow down – Exodus 20:3,4
2) you may not pray to the cross but you pray through it. you may just use it as inspiration but you use it to worship. God asks as to worship Him in spirit – John 4:23,24
thus, those who rely on images as aids to devotion are not worshiping God in spirit but they depend on what they can see with their physical eyes.
=)
"There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions."
G K Chesterton
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines." – Bertrand Russell.
That day can't come too soon in my opinion.
Apparently Russell never met Josef Mengele or Mr. Oppenheimer of the atom bomb. Otherwise Russel would have known that human nature always trumps both science and reason.
When you came into the world, there was religion. By the time you will leave the world, religion will still be there.
"The crucifix is the sign of a God that loves man to the point of giving up his life for him. It is a God that teaches us to learn to love, to pay attention to each man ... and to respect the others, even those who belong to a different culture or religion.
"How could someone not share such a symbol?"
----------------------------
How about those who do not believe in a god. The entire world knows the crucifix is a christian religious symbol, and those who do not follow it are seriously tired of christianity assuming they can just worm their way into every aspect of everyone's lives. They are claiming a place of elevation among other religions. Either display symbols for all or none.
This is only right if they put up a symbol of every known religion, no matter how outlandish the beliefs in some systems may come across. And I mean every one, from ancient Egyptian beliefs to Heavens Gate and everything in between.
The cross began to be revered at around 431 A.D by the roman catholic church. Is this the true teachings of Christ or some man-made idea? Because if this is truly a man-made idea then it is not of or the will of God. Now you state as fact that the catholic church chose it as their symbol or idol. So we can see that then this is merely a man-made idea to revere the cross. If you have any evidence that God told us to revere the cross then please show me. If you can find any evidence then i will make myself a wooden cross n hang it on my wall because a true christian follows the true teachings of christ. You can also look into Matthew 7:21-23. Is cross reverance truly God's will? and through that passage in the bible which category do you fall under?
Exodus 20:4-6 and Deuteronomy 4:15-19 explain and give the true answer and this is what God thinks of it in Deuteronomy 27:16 and is a cross an idol? The answer is in the book of Jeremiah 10:1-6 and if you want further evidence then you can look also in book of Jeremiah 2:27-28. The cross was just an instrument of executing people in those days. If Jesus was killed by a sword, or a dagger, or maybe for example only(i know they didn't have electric chairs back then but just getting a point across).. an electric chair? would you carry around your necks a symbol of a sword or a dagger, or an electric chair or would you hang these things on ur walls? So are you truly Christian (Christ-Like) if you continue to disobey one of God's commandments?
That is a specious argument. The fact is that the crucifix IS the chosen symbol of the Catholic Church, period. That's like saying, if your dad had used a condom you wouldn't be here to make that inane comment.
No need to argue where to place the crucifix. It shouldn't even be used by Christians or any one else in the first place.
1) an image or symbol that is an object of intense devotion, veneration, or worship is an idol. thus, the crucifix is an idol. God warns against even making an image before which people bow down – Exodus 20:3,4
2) you may not pray to the cross but you pray through it. you may just use it as inspiration but you use it to worship. God asks as to worship Him in spirit – John 4:23,24
thus, those who rely on images as aids to devotion are not worshiping God in spirit but they depend on what they can see with their physical eyes.
=)
If people want a crucifix in a classroom, then they have to allow all religious symbols from every major religion in that same classroom. If you want religion, go to a church or a religious temple. Classrooms are for teaching, not for converting people or force feeding them religion.
The country we are talking about is Italy. By taking away the crucifix you are the one FORCE FEEDING SECULARISM in a Catholic country.
[JMJ]@Mario, @drew, @thatgirl: let me understand your craziness, if I believe in Lady Luck, I can string up a pair of furry, hotpink dice and a rabbit's foot on the classroom wall. With a couple of lady luck perfume sprays for good measure...throw the dice around the classroom and if I hit 7 its gonna be a good day! Your all gods and all religions theory premises that there is no God for why would they be need of many and there is no true religion because there are so many...Christainity and Judaism conquered long ago that ignorance
with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...your argument roll us back to the ignorance present at the time of Noah and God destroyed the world with the Flood. Noah and His Family was the only ones worshipping the One, True God. Please keep up with the current events and stop trying to pull out the dark ages
Being an atheist, I don't rely care about the various symbols of superstition being displayed in public. However, having lived in a catholic country, I tended to avoid crosses because they are NOT just two pieces of wood nailed together in the middle.
They very often have a (sometimes life-sized) stature of a man being tortured, realistic red blood painted here and there on the body.
Well, ok, if horror & sadism turns you on – fine – but can't we keep these graphic depictions of torture to inside the church?
Do we have to offer this to young children in the school? And then they say that the TV encourages violence!
Isn't showing Jesus (incarnation of Jehovah?) as a carved/graven image against one the ten commandments?
gsw,
Jehovah is not incarnation of Jesus. Jehovah is the personal name of the only true God (Psalms 83:16) and Jesus is His son (John 10:36 and Matthew 16:15-17)
and yes you are right. the use of images is against God's commandments.
here's my previous post in reply to Geo:
1) an image or symbol that is an object of intense devotion, veneration, or worship is an idol. thus, the crucifix is an idol. God warns against even making an image before which people bow down – Exodus 20:3,4
2) you may not pray to the cross but you pray through it. you may just use it as inspiration but you use it to worship. God asks as to worship Him in spirit – John 4:23,24
thus, those who rely on images as aids to devotion are not worshiping God in spirit but they depend on what they can see with their physical eyes.
sorry, it's Psalms 83:18
i hate typos 🙁
sorry, it's Psalms 83:18
i hate typo errors 🙁
The thing is...Italy is a Christian/Catholic country as are most European countries. They should not be forced into being 'secular.' Imposing 'secularism' is just a way to impose a blank slate so that the enemy (Islam) can find a way to finalize the Islamization of Europe.
Would we think it reasonable to travel to Saudi Arabia and demand for them to remove references and symbols of Islam from their 'public' areas? Go ahead and try it...you would find yourself imprisoned or executed under sharia law.
Alot of christians WILL NOT do there own history. They just do and believe what man tells them.
Well the cross is a Pagen symbol that the RCC used to pull more pagens into the church.
Anytype of religiuous symbol set outside of the church setting is a form of advertisement and what is advertisement meant to do? Bring in more money for one group or the other. Being an American is about having choice and that choice should not be thrown at you every day of the week by co-workers or advertising agencies. If you believe in something then why do you need to advertise it other than to try and make money off of it? Has America become so greedy that it has forgotten the basics of the Constitution of the United States of America which was NOT founded on Christianity any any one belief but the freedom to chose how one believes to be free from the persacution of a state ran church which imparts communism or the forcing of someone to believe in something against their choice. Religion and government do not go together nor does religion need to be present within the school system as being in school is about learning what the instructor is trying to teach which will prepare you for life's ordeals. It seems that religion is trying to mandate what it wants taught in schools so that there is only one religion that is practiced which would not make America a free country but a nation a servitude where the laws of the church are imposed on everyone which if you look at the Middle East and what is being accomplished there by getting rid of secularism and mandating choice over forced pratices then America might as well change it's name to the New Western Middle East because what the fundamentalists want to do is to take away all of your rights and force you through many kinds of abuse to follow what they say without having a voice. America does not want that to happen. Everything that you read in a religious text relates to how the old world functioned where the reign of kings and queens was dominate where choice was limited to what you ate and drank otherwise the country will revolve around a centrist that wants to build his or her own temple to theirself so that they may be worshipped instead of you following your own beliefs.
It never ceases to amaze me that people always have something new to complain about. If they are offended by a crucifix in the school , go to a non christian school. It is so annoying that countries traditions have to be altered to pacify a small percentage of the population...In most cases, the people complaining are immigrants to the countries, that want to have their views heard...If you did not like these things why take citizenship....Is it just to moan...
I am Canadian and over the past several years, we have had anthems removed, Christmas celebrations altered to accomodate many other nationalities, parayer gone, but yet, certain cultures that have immigrated to my country have their rights, Turbans as part of Police costumes, with religious daggers, among so many other things.
I have lived in China for 12 years. Chinese beliefs and cultures went on for hundreds of years prior to my arrival, and so I see no reason why I have any RIGHT to complain...They were kind enough to ALLOW me residency here.
This is a part of Italys culture, also for hundreds of years and I hope they don't go down without a big fight. It is time for all countries to stand up for their practices and beliefs and for others to MOVE on if they are not comfortable with these Customs and beliefs...When in ROME!
Religious folks really want a fight, don't they. I'll happily oblige them any day.
No public building should host religious advertisements. In secular society either all religions are represented by the state, or none are. Since the former is impractical, the latter must be observed. Naturally children will learn about these symbols as part of the standard curriculum in history classes, social studies, and world religion classes. But the school itself should not allow religious expression. That can of worms has been opened time and time and time again, every time with rotten consequences.
I think we can all agree that Islam sucks, and all its symbols should be on display in every trash bin.