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August 10th, 2010
10:48 AM ET
Arizona escapee sang hymns before capture
He would later be surprised to learn Province was a prison escapee and convicted murderer. Province, 10 days after he and two other inmates escaped from an Arizona prison, walked into Meeteetse Community Church wearing blue jeans and a flannel shirt. He stayed for the 9:30 a.m. worship service, sang songs like "Your Grace is Enough," and shook hands with some of the 50 or so attendees, the pastor says.
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The Rev. Ron Kingston thought Tracy Province was just a down-on-his luck soul when he welcomed him into his church in Meeteetse, Wyoming, on Sunday morning.
Totally Stressed Out – clouds of darkness looming in the air outside this morning, evil is real people.
King James Bible
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
But did the simple, preacher man aka Jesus, actually utter Luke 21:28? He did not according to many contemporary NT and historic Jesus exegetes i.e. the passage is just another example of the "Paul et allers" attempt to make the simple, preacher man into some kind of deity.
Mike, as an agnostic who agrees with David Johnson,Peace and the rest of the doubters I will say you come across more open minded and curtious than most devout fundies. I wish you would argue some of your points with the other fundies and set them straight since you appear to have more intelligent view of religion.
@Mike
Gary is being kind. I think you are deluded. But then, it goes with the fundie territory.
@Mike
You said, "Do you care to eloborate about these errors and frauds that you seem to only know. Educate us"
You don't seem very kind and courteous to me. Pretty quick to be nasty to Reality.
@Dave Abraham and Isaac, no He doesn't and no he didn't but that human who loves him does.
Job:
There was no bet, no money exchanged hands. Define torture, re-read Job and how he Praised God knowing that he wasn't attached to this life.
I wouldn't want to serve the God you image him to be either. It's a good thing he is not.
Dave you mentioned you had kids so try this little experment it will be fun. Go to the store with your kids stand them in front of something they real want (a bike/wii/ps3) ask them if they have the money to buy it. Knowing that they don't reassure them not to worry that you will buy it for them. Let them hold it the whole ride home. Hook it up assemble it what ever. Let them play with it for about an hour or so. Then ask them can daddy have a turn. There likely response, "NO its mine". Now focus on that for a while, even though you showed it to them, brough it, assemble it, someone else is claiming as there own. How rude huh?
@UncleM Its not a burden of proof issue for the atheist, but you do have to believe in your theology that everyone of the monotheism religions are wrong and you are right. Again all the world is wrong but you are right. Then you should be able to give an account as to why you believe that but can not. Being mad at a person or the fact that they did not consult you does not negate their existance.
@Peace, I think are comments have been open and helpful and I would ask you to be open of the idea of a loving God and a father/son relationship with the creator of the universe. try not to use the idea of you don't like it as a fall back but can this be true, can I have a relationship with the God of the universe.
@Mike
Yes, I believe that we have been having a very civil and rational discussion. Good to have without all of the emotional mud-slinging.
It is not .... that I am *not open* I will always be open....... I just don't believe in the God as portrayed in the bible and the whole story surrounding it, or any other for that matter.
If....and this is a biggie..... IF there is some kind of God, as you say, then in my world-view, it would be so far beyond our understanding, that we can't even fathom. Also, it's love would not demand obedience, otherwise you will be tossed into he** for all of eternity....
Anything that you 'think' about God, is just a 're-presentation' of something you have created in your own mind. That...is not God....but, your thoughts....
Anyways Mike, that is about the best that I can give you (shortened version) of some kind of world-view of mine. But, even then, out of courteousy, to you, I actually tried it on....
Again, I will always be open-minded........ But, the God, as portrayed by most all of the monotheistic religions, and even the polytheistic religions.... is just not a God, that I can get behind.
Peace and Respect to you....
@Mike
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Rev. 12.10
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Sounds like a bet to me, Mike.
@Mike
And what of Abraham? God made Abraham believe he would be sacrificing his son to prove his love for Him. Your god is a monster. Sugar coat it any way you like. Unless, these stories didn't happen? LOL
@Mike
You said, "Let them hold it the whole ride home. Hook it up assemble it what ever. Let them play with it for about an hour or so. Then ask them can daddy have a turn. There likely response, "NO its mine". Now focus on that for a while, even though you showed it to them, brough it, assemble it, someone else is claiming as there own. How rude huh?"
Mike, I am a mere human NOTan all powerful, all knowing, all loving god. But still, my love for my daughter is not conditional on her returning my love. I would not take all her possessions, kill what she loves (her kitten?) and cause her pain to see if she will still love me. You fundies certainly have funny values. LOL
@Mike
You wrote to UncleM, "Its not a burden of proof issue for the atheist, but you do have to believe in your theology that everyone of the monotheism religions are wrong and you are right. Again all the world is wrong but you are right. Then you should be able to give an account as to why you believe that but can not. Being mad at a person or the fact that they did not consult you does not negate their existance."
"Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence". – Carl Sagan
If I tell you I have fairies living in my shoe, I have made an extraordinary claim. You aren't expected to immediately come up with an argument against my claim. Instead, you would be justified to dismiss my claim until I presented sufficient evidence for it.
So, UncleM is correct. You are totally wrong. Cheers!
@Mike
One more thing on the Job bet idea. I don't like wiggle room.
Satan said: "Bet Job only loves you 'cause you give him stuff.
God: "Bet he doesn't. Do everything but kill him, and he will still love me.
And, what does it matter? God eventually gives Job back all his stuff, including brand new children.
Hmm... God doesn't seem to value human life does he? Are new children as good as the old murdered children?
Your god is a god of love. ? LOL
@Mike
To your comment to me August 10, 2010 @ 1:26 pm
" Science has revealed 'how' the universe works, but, has offered nothing as to ('why') it works."
My previous comment to you in response to @David Johnson still stands......
You are still using the exact same argument...... Since we don't know WHY....then it must be God. Same If/then logic.
Mike..... I am just asking you to be 'open' ..... just because there may not be answer or a gap in knowledge, or an answer you don't like...... try not keep using a God.... as your fall-back plan.
Peace to you....
@Mike
You said, " wouldn't want to serve the God you image him to be either. It's a good thing he is not."
Mike, god allowed Satan to kill Job's children. You think my image is skewed?
@Mike
Abraham and Isaac:
Would an all powerful, all knowing god require proof that a human loved him, would sacrifice their son for him?
Job:
Would an all powerful, all knowing god allow a human to be tortured, their children killed, to prove a bet with Satan?
I think I would prefer to believe there is no god, than to worship this one.
It is getting hard to not be flagged for moderation. Why is that? Then, the post is never moderated.
The evidence suggests that god is made up by man. Atheists don't have to prove god doesn't exist (except in deluded minds). The burdern of proof is with the believers.
You are right of course, but if you are to argue with the fundies, you have to relax the rules a little.
It's good to have you on board. Cheers!
@Mike
You said, "And you would sacrifice your son if you believed you heard from God. No one would say I heard from God and I am not doing it."
Even if I knew the voice was from god, I would not sacrifice my child. I love my child more than I could ever love a god. I would stand my ground against god and all his angels, with nothing more than a pointed stick in my hand, to protect her.
Cheers!
@Mike
I've always wondered why anyone would sacrifice their child to an insecure desert war god. Why would the fundies think this was the behavior of a sane entity? I must know if Abraham loves me enough to sacrifice his child. This from an all powerful, all knowing god?
@David Johnson
WIN
Dave I was going to answer your question but continuing to read you answered it yourself
“If this was a god driven decision, the outcomes would always be the same. Same god, right?”
“No one loves a coward. We sing songs of the person who makes the ultimate sacrifice. We honor our heros”
Yes that is correct.
And you would sacrifice your son if you believed you heard from God. No one would say I heard from God and I am not doing it.
I had a longer response that CNN would not post and I can not retype right now. Hopefully later.
Peace2all,
Even with the big bang theory you still have an issue explaining where the things that banged together came from.
Yes it is a long standing arguement even back to CS Lewis days when writing Mere Christianity.
The arguement of the athetist is that you must believe ALL religion is wrong while still following the law of human nature.
The point was the thing that helps you decide between the two feelings can not itself be one of the feelings. The thing that tells you what note to play (sheet music) can not itself be a note itself.
Science has revealed how the universe works but it has offered nothing about why it works. In most cases it has lead great scientific minds, like Newton to the notion of the Christian God.
@Mike
No one as yet knows where the material in the singularity came from. We may never know. You have the same problem. Where did god come from? Who created him? Or are you going to say, "god is special". ?
Different people, different cultures, would not all choose the same course of action. Abraham would have sacrificed Isaac. I would not have. If this was a god driven decision, the outcomes would always be the same. Same god, right?
Sacrificing one's self for the good of another or others could well be an evolved trait. Animal mothers will fight to the death to protect their young. In humans, it is also a learned trait. No one loves a coward. We sing songs of the person who makes the ultimate sacrifice. We honor our heros. I think we take a cue from that.
Remember, just because we don't know where something came from, or how it performs its function, doesn't mean god did or is doing it. At one time, it was believed the gods were responisble for lightening bolts. And rumbling mountains, and floods. Just recently, many religious people claimed the HIV virus was a punishment from god. All is silly. We now know that there are natural causes for all these things. No god required.
At the end of the day, I can't prove there is no god. You can't prove there is a god. But, there is far more evidence pointing toward there not being a god. Cheers!
Mike,
You said, "Even with the big bang theory you still have an issue explaining where the things that banged together came from." - I'm not sure that you understand the Big Bang theory then. Nevertheless, I don't think that science has definitively pronounced that the Big Bang theory is the final answer. The 'god of the gaps' (unknown = god) is not one of their fall-back positions.
You said, "In most cases it has lead great scientific minds, like Newton to the notion of the Christian God." - Isaac Newton may have had a fine, mathematical, scientific mind, but if you look up his biography, you will see that he was very much into the occult - alchemy (and the Philosopher's Stone) and numerology-type study of the Bible. Apparently he has more writings about those subjects than he does on hard science. His 'notion of the Christian god' was just that - a notion.
Gary,
He did argue from a narrow view of the scriptures the fault is that no one else in his orginazation quoted scripture constantly, therefore not knowing it and believing the lie.
Dave,
Ponder where does everythning come from? What was the beining, how was it there?
Also when you have two conflicting feelings like helping someone vs being safe and then something inside you encourages you to pick one over the other were does that come from?
Also when you choose the more "cowardess" or incorrect thing to say and do why do you get that "pit" in your stomach that instantly declares to you that you did not choose the best?
@Mike
That is one of the most often used argument by 'believers'....... " Where and how did the universe come into being...? Where do you get those feelings of right & wrong, etc...etc...?
Although science is now providing answers with data behind it..... religion offers nothing. Only the .... 'anywhere or anything that came into being ...... 'must' be do to a supernatural god.
Science keeps providing answers, and the 'believers' have to keep growing and getting more creative in keeping their assumptions. Example: Now that the world of cosmology has tightened it's fact-based theories on the big-bang, the believers came up with..... well, we can't disprove the science.... so, it must be..... 'intelligent design' etc...
Please provide evidence of what you are arguing 'not'...... well, where do you think that feeling came from...?
@peace2all
I can always count on you to give the right answer. Cheers!
@David Johnson
No problem buddy..... You know when I am online and posting.... I am always watching your back.....
Peace.....
Gary,
David Koresh, not christian, especially if you claim to be the Christ you're suppose to be worshipping.
The othere are "Word of Faith" people, who are also not Christian?
What is your opinion on John Edwards (not the psychic), Matt Chandler, Mark Driscoll, John Piper?
Mike they are most likely more sincere in their faith like Hank Hannigraf . They are probably genuine in their faith and mean well.
Koresh claimed to be the 2nd coming I believe. He quoted scripture constantly ....dont worry he didnt fool me. millions have been fooled by the other guys mentioned....As an open minded agnostic I will google the fore mentioned men you posted. Mike have a great day!!
All religious people are either frauds or delusional. There is no god to worship. If I'm wrong, prove it to be so...
Glenn Campbell,jimmy swaggert ,Jim bakker,oral roberts ,benny hinn,osama bin ladin,jim jones,david koresh all hymme to themselves and chant...
Darn, I loved your answer! Cheers dude!
correct Reality . Many convicts find religion in jail. religion and crime go hand and hand....
Exactly! A Gallup Poll released a few years ago shows that less than 1/2 of 1% of the federal prison system inmates are professed atheists. The rest are predominately Christian or Muslim. More simply put is that non-belief in a deity or supernatural power does not equate to lawlessness or crime.
Just another lost sheep amongst a crowd of sheep lost in the errors and fraud of Christianity's history and theology only T. Province has added baggage.
Do you care to eloborate about these errors and frauds that you seem to only know. Educate us.
Dave I was going to answer your question but as I kept reading you answered it yourself
" If this was a god driven decision, the outcomes would always be the same. Same god, right?"
"No one loves a coward. We sing songs of the person who makes the ultimate sacrifice. We honor our heros. I think we take a cue from that."
Yes there are cultural differences, which side of the road we drive on, what is considered a breakfast food. But when it comes to the law of human nature (and even of that of science) there is one answer that comes from the create of these laws. There is one sum of 2+2. No one does reward a coward.
Back to Abraham, you would have chose to sacrifice your son, or denying that you heard from God. You would not have said I heard from God and I am not going to do it.
Because people have made erronous assumptions about God, like HIV is not a punishment but a result of not following the laws of nature, does not negate His existance. Just as if someone got there sums wrong does not negate mathematics. Just like there are a few color blind people in the world does not negate the existance of color. There is a lot more evidence point to God, monotheoism(sp) than not.
Again who created nature?
Dave I was going to answer your question but continuing to read you answered it yourself
“If this was a god driven decision, the outcomes would always be the same. Same god, right?”
“No one loves a coward. We sing songs of the person who makes the ultimate sacrifice. We honor our heros”
Yes that is correct.
And you would sacrifice your son if you believed you heard from God. No one would say I heard from God and I am not doing it.
I had a longer response that CNN did not post and I can not retype right now. Hopefully later.
@Mike
You asked, "Who created nature?"
I've already dealt with this. If we can explain why the planets revolve around the sun without having to say "god did it" then god is not required. Occams Razor would demand we do not introduce unneeded complexity. If the planets, instead of revolving around the sun, acually bobbed up and down like pogo sticks, then we might have to conclude that a god was necessary. But that isn't the case. If we determine why lightening occurs, it doesn't follow that it occurs, because that was the way god made it. You can't say, "well that is the way god did it." That is a Ray Comfort argument.
In the first micro-seconds of the big bang, Physics and mathematics and even time began. The universe appears to obey the laws of physics that we have so far observed. An all powerful god would not need to obey such "laws". He could make up stuff as he goes along. Then we would conclude there is indeed a god keeping it all together. You would need the complexity of a god in order for everything to work.
Even if we did conclude there is a god, whose god would it be? There are like 5 major religions. There are over a thousand different denomination of Christianity. Why would it have to be your god?
And if you argue that there is a need for a creator – nothing can appear from nothing – who created god? Actually that's easy to answer: man created god.
@UncleM
Yes, you have stated the ultimate truth. Man created god. God did not create man.
Just some of the flaws and frauds of Christianity/Judaism:
Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.
Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. Google, Bing or Yahoo "The New Torah for Modern Minds".
Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma–mzer from Nazareth. Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
Some of the flaws and frauds of Judaism:
The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "litany of disillusion" about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."
Some of the flaws and frauds of Christianity:
Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "angelic" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the frauds of Catholicism (resurrections, miracles, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).
@Reality
I had read about the Exodus and lack of evidence before, but I thank you for your comment. I was not aware that the Conservative Rabbi actually questioned the Torah. Cheers!