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August 17th, 2010
02:57 PM ET
Opinion: Same-sex marriage is about equality, not religion
I am a product of the "The Black Church." It shaped me into who I am today: a Christian pastor aware of God's amazing grace and love. When I announced I was gay, the church limited that grace and love. Although I had no doubt that God loved me, I discovered that God's love and the church's love can be two different things. To be Christian is to be inclusive of people who love one another. This is why I support same-sex marriage. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Editor's note: Bishop-elect O.C. Allen III is senior pastor of The Vision Church of Atlanta, and founder of The United Progressive Pentecostal Church Fellowship, an alliance of faith leaders and churches. He shares his thoughts on why marriage matters in the "The Black Pulpit," a weekly series of opinion pieces that explores faith in the black community. Next week: A view from a Buddhist female priest. CNN's 
wow. some of your comments on here really saddens me to claim that u r christians religious or spritual is unreal to me. My pastor is right on the money when he said its the same thing as the interracial marriage debate back in the 1960's and he added how us African-Americans were treated like trash even worse than second class citizens and how the establisment found some kind of bible verse to justify their hate. Its the same with this. I truly believe that someday 18 and over adult person should be able to marry any adult that they want of their choosing. It will happen because ths is a civil rights issue. BUT also we need to put in place that we at least have some time to think about such a commitment, what we dont need is like we have now people can fly to vegas or a island and get married on a whim after knowing each other for a week or month. then get a quickie divorce. no more quickie marriages and divorces that my fellow citizens is really the reason why there is such a high divorce rate people straight and now gay is not taking the time to really get to know the person get married,or shack up and then fall out and get divorced. That is what is destroying the true meaning of marriage not same sex people some of them have been together for decades will only enhance the fact of loving just one person for a lifetime.
First, I'd like to say, awesome comment to Godsmack01. Secondly, I would like to add to this and say in Titus chapter 1, the qualifications for a Bishop are to be the husband of 1 wife, children to be servants of God not subject to rebuke, not drunkards, not greedy or violent, to love what is good, to be peaceable, not haughty or arrogant...and the list goes on. In Ephesians 5, the Apostle Paul tells the church that marriage is a mystery concerning Christ and the Church. He says "wives submit to your husbands, and husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it..." Now no where does it say husband and husband, wife and wife. Paul even talks about marriage in 1 Corinthians 6, and the way in which marriage comes about. He says let each man have his own wife. So how can a man hold the title of wife? How can a woman hold the title of husband? They can't. When Christ talked about the greatest commandment, he was talking about how we are to relate to God and man. He explains this in Matthew 5,6, 7, and 25. He demonstrates this in John 13...and yet how can love of God and man in relation to how Christ mean love in such a perverted way? He doesn't. Yes, we are to love you as a person, but we are supposed to hate the sin. Not only that, but we are required to teach you according to the word so that you no longer stumble. 2 Peter2 says that what ever overcomes a man, he is a slave to that thing. And no man should be a slave to perversness such as homosexuality. It is unnatural, it causes sickness and disease (mentally and physically), and to God it is an abomination. Read of Sodom and Gommorah, read in Ezekiel 46 where God explains why they were destroyed. Read 2 Peter 2 when he says that their behavior was torturous to the sole righteous man in that area. As far as the political concerns are, you have those rights, if you are not married they all pass to your parents. If you desire marriage in order to pass along a legacy, why won't you do so the way the God commanded Adam and Eve in the Garden. He made male and female so they can reproduce...you can't reproduce male with male, nor female with female. The laws may grant you favor temporarily, but ultimately, this issue is both a temporal political and social matter, and an eternal matter.
You don't know what being a Christian is ! You love perversion and the pride of life. Repent ! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand ! Lest hell will be your eternity !
that was for Chaim.
Its clear that youre as ignorant as your comments! thats not what this Post is for!
@Chaim
LOL!
It is significant that Allen stakes his case for same-sex marriage equality on the law of the land. He is right that same-sex marriage equality and benefits are from or are to come from government. Were there no rights for same-sex marriage and other homosexuality causes in the land homosexuals can and may well obtain passage of necessary legislation.
It is Allen's attempts to ply the scriptures to exact equality which he cannot legislate. There is no equality or benefit in the scripture for same-sex marriage. True Jesus never spoke on homosexuality specifically. Allen seems to construe the silence of Jesus as an equality with approval of homosexuality. Although the scriptures speak with renouncing condemnation of adultery as much as homosexuality Allen attempts to elevate what Jesus never with what he did say. One could develop a quick list of things Jesus never said, but to live by such a list is to put oneself on a perilous edge.
Disciples of Jesus are not instructed or motivated to lash out in hate against anyone and do so would be no less a perverseness of the love and righteousness of God than the target of their hatred. We are compelled to declare the righteousness of God because this is what we have become as a result of Jesus having been made sin.
Marriage since the beginning of time was a rite not a right...
It was created to celebrate a union between man and a woman.
Then came along the other gender...And they twisted everything that was sacred and solemn to Christians.
No one is asking not to elope or live together but leave that rite that is rightfully belongs to the Christians.
nate-
Is it right for you to say that gay people all of a sudden came along and ruined marriage for only Christians? Christianity did not invent marriage, and homosexuality was around long before Christianity. Eloping only applies to marriages, right? Also, as a Christian, are you saying it's OK for same-sex couples to live together? If they are believers, and many are, how can they live together outside of marriage?
But there are many Christian homosexuals. Words, however, are important and the word "marriage" is typically defined as an institution created by a man and woman. "Unions" between homosexuals should be called that and not "marriages" to keep the correct biological and physical aspects of both ways of life.
But there are many Christian hom-ose-xuals. Words, however, are important and the word "marriage" is typically defined as an insti-tution created by a man and woman. "Unions" between hom-ose-xuals should be called that and not "marriages" to keep the correct biological and physical aspects of both ways of life.
Reality-
As the article says, it's all about equality. Even if a "union" had the exact same legal definition as marriage, it would not have the same emotional definition. Gay men and women are foremost people and, like any other people, they dream of their wedding as a celebration of their choosing a life partner. It's difficult then to get past the impression that those opposed to same-sex marriage really just want to keep this, what many count as their happiest day, from gay people. Tell me, are Christians really that mean-spirited?
Obviously this guy never read romans 1:18-28 about. Also has a skwed view of love. Do let a child play in the streets because you don't want to tell them there wrong but just love them?
Do you let them pick on other kids? cut in line? steal? all for the sake of loving them.
Actually if you love them you will keep them from doing such thing.
Romans: 26For this reason(M) God gave them up to(N) dis-honorable pa-ssions. For their women exchanged natural relat-ions for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural re-lations with women and were consumed with pas-sion for one another,(O) men commit-ting shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Paul simply followed the thinking of the time. In the 21st century, we have:
" No simple cause for se-xual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, and there is no scientific consensus as to whether the contributing factors are primarily biological or environmental. Many think both play complex roles.[1][2] The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association have both stated that se-xual orientation probably has multiple causes.[3][4] Research has identified several biological factors which may be related to the development of a hete-rose-xual, hom-os-exual or bis-ex-ual orientation. These include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure. Conclusive proof of a biological cause of se-xual orientation would have significant political and cultural implications. [5]"
And if there is a God, he, she or it made all of us to include ho-mos-exuals. Said God would expect the same rules with respect to no for-nic-ation and no ad-u-ltery for all of us but since said God is responsible for the genes, mind set, biology etc of ho-mos-exuals, there can be no sin from appropriate ho-mo-se-xual unions.
an abomination
Are hom-s-xual acts a "H-ell Sin? Not so, assuming for-ication and adu-tery are not involved since one assumes that h-omo-s-exuals must obey the same rules as he-teros-e-xuals.
Then there is that "yu-cky" element i.e.:
The general population to include many of the voters in California, rightly or wrongly, find ga-y se-xual activities, "unionized" or not, to be "yu-cky" and unusual and typically associate such activity with the spread of A-IDS which is of course wrong. Said A-IDS epi-demic in the ga-y male community at the start of the A-IDS crises will always remain unfortunately a stigma on the g-ay community.
Who said anything about sex? It's not about sex, this is about two people wanting to commit to each other..
Regardless of whether you or anyone else finds it 'yucky', it's really not your business or anyone else's.
There is NO proven evidence to support the claim that AIDS originated from gays and lesbians. In fact, the most recent research shows that AIDS is found to be more prevalent among heterosexuals than homosexuals.
Please then interrupt romans 1:18-28 for us.
interpret
"Romans: 26For this reason(M) God gave them up to(N) dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,(O) men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Paul simply followed the thinking of the time. In the 21st century, we have:
" No simple cause for se-xual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, and there is no scientific consensus as to whether the contributing factors are primarily biological or environmental. Many think both play complex roles.[1][2] The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association have both stated that se-xual orientation probably has multiple causes.[3][4] Research has identified several biological factors which may be related to the development of a heterose-xual, homos-exual or bis-exual orientation. These include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure. Conclusive proof of a biological cause of se-xual orientation would have significant political and cultural implications. [5]"
And if there is a God, he, she or it created all of us to include homos-exuals. Said God expects the same rules with respect to no fornic-ation and no adu-ltery for all of us but since said God is responsible for the genes, mind set, biology etc of homos-exuals, there can be no sin from appropriate homo-se-xual unions.
Romans: 26For this reason(M) God gave them up to(N) dis-honorable pa-ssions. For their women exchanged natural relat-ions for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural re-lations with women and were consumed with pas-sion for one another,(O) men commit-ting shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."
Paul simply followed the thinking of the time. In the 21st century, we have:
" No simple cause for se-xual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, and there is no scientific consensus as to whether the contributing factors are primarily biological or environmental. Many think both play complex roles.[1][2] The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association have both stated that se-xual orientation probably has multiple causes.[3][4] Research has identified several biological factors which may be related to the development of a hete-rose-xual, hom-os-exual or bis-ex-ual orientation. These include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure. Conclusive proof of a biological cause of se-xual orientation would have significant political and cultural implications. [5]"
And if there is a God, he, she or it created all of us to include ho-mos-exuals. Said God would expect the same rules with respect to no for-nic-ation and no ad-u-ltery for all of us but since said God is responsible for the genes, mind set, biology etc of ho-mos-exuals, there can be no sin from appropriate ho-mo-se-xual unions.
your argument is a interest one. First you claim because the time has changed the nature of things should change. But if you follow that out to the conclusion what is to say in the 31st centery, if the Lord tarries, whose to say research in the 21st centry was wrong.
Second Conclusive proof of a biological does not change a thing. I am biologically wire to sleep with every woman I see but everyone would agree that it is not good for my marriage or society.
If "Conclusive proof of a biological " proof that someone is a kelptomanic (sp) should we allow them to steal? Some one who starts fires, start fires?
God does expect the same rules from everyone put your faith in God and believe that He raised Jesus from the dead to sit at the right hand, by doing so we have taken part in double-imputation.
one more if someone is color blind do we accomidate them by removing color from everything?
Mike-
It's about accommodating natural difference, like making left-handed scissors and can openers.
Hmmm, for complete disclosure:
This verse is one of the famous six "clobber" passages from the Bible that is often used to con-demn same-s-x s-xu-al activity.
In the King James Version,: "Thou shalt not lie with man-kind, as with woman-kind: it is ab-mi-nation."
Although the verse appears to most readers to apply only to se-xual behavior between two males, at least two Bible translations appear to mistranslate the verse in order to widen its scope to include le-s-bian s-e-xual activity:
Living Bible: "H-omo-s-ex-uality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous si-n"
New Living Translation: "Do not practice ho-mo–s-ex–uality; it is a de-testable s-in."
Eating a lobster is also considered an abomination in the KJV (Leviticus 11:10-12). Better not let anyone from Maine marry either then.
The word 'homosexuality' didn't even appear in the printed form until the mid-late 19th century. Injecting a 'modern' word into ancient scriptures that are Hebrew in origin when the original Hebrew doesn't even translate into anything even remotely close to 'homosexuality' is not only dishonest, but in my view, desecration of holy scriptures.
The original words translated into something resembling 'male prostitute' and we all know what a prostitute is. The bible says NOTHING against two people of the same sex living together in a monogamous relationship.
Hmmm, for complete disclosure:
This verse is one of the famous six "clobber" passages from the Bible that is often used to condemn same-se-x se-xu-al activity.
In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
Although the verse appears to most readers to apply only to sexual behavior between two males, at least two Bible translations appear to mistranslate the verse in order to widen its scope to include lesbian sexual activity:
Living Bible: "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"
New Living Translation: "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin."
A "Hell Sin? Not so, assuming fornication and adultery are not involved since one assumes that homo-s-exuals must obey the same rules as heteros-e-xuals.
Then there is that "yu-cky" element i.e.:
The general population to include many of the voters in California, rightly or wrongly, find ga-y se-xual activities, "unionized" or not, to be "yu-cky" and unusual and typically associate such activity with the spread of A-IDS which is of course wrong. Said A-IDS epidemic in the ga-y male community at the start of the A-IDS crises will always remain unfortunately a stigma on the g-ay community.
Don't bother changing your name..once a dick always a dick. You know who you really are...right Dick?
@Dominiic
LOL
You're like me!
Hi!
😀
@Dominiic
LOL
I THINK I LOVE YOU!
LOL
Reading these blogs reveals the sad state of the human race. We eagerly spew forth hateful speech against the Supreme Being who designed and created us, and we display flagrant disrespect for His morality, arrogant in our ignorance, insisting that we, as humans, may decide for ourselves what is good and what is evil. We do not want to admit that the way to a good life , to peace on Earth, and to Heaven is to obey the Lord, God, to do what He wants instead of what we want. We insist that we know what we are talking about while we don't even read the Bible! May our Glorious Creator have mercy on us all.
@Erik
Reading your post reveals the sad state of your HEAD. You deny and affirm self-will in the same paragraph and do not mention the fact that "God" does not tell people what to do and probably never has.
As to what "God" wants, the Bible is the last place you'd want to go looking for answers because the Bible is so self-contradictory.
Perhaps that explains why you contradict yourself so easily. It must be what "God" wants!
You're an absolute dick Chalm... from any point of view.
@Baker
Thank you for your Christian-type response.
You help me to feel brotherly love towards you.
Here's a hug for you: ((((hug))))
See? I'm not so bad.
Chaim, I admit that I am only human and that I do not know everything, but I do know this: the Bible reveals in many passages that God tells people what to do. He has told us, through numerous biblical authors, that homosexual activity is a sin, not a civil right. God's opinions have never been popular with the human race, but a person of faith understands that God is the boss of the universe. God designed each of us to have a free will, and then, through His biblical teachers such as Moses, Isaiah, and Jesus, told us of His morality, hoping that we would wilfully choose His ways instead of our ways. It is not easy. Maybe it takes faith to understand it. May God grant us all greater faith.
@Baker
Sorry, I forgot to agree or disagree with your post.
Yes, I am an absolute dick. You know me so well. (wink)
No, no. Wait. Maybe you're right. Maybe I AM an absolute dick!
Wait. ...No "maybe" about it.... I'm a dick.
You are soooo right. And from ANY point of view! Wow! This is great!
You really helped me out with that.
Thanks!
😀
ps. Should I change my name?
Erik-
PEOPLE wrote the Bible, therefore people HAVE been telling us what is good and what is evil. Furthermore, other people have been telling us what these first people meant when they wrote the Bible.
p.s. I've read much of the Bible, and continue to read it often. Perhaps I know what I'm saying then?
But Nl you don't, you even misrepresented Lev 11:10-12 below. If someone else writes Obama's speeches are they still not his words. And do we not hold him to his speeches that he may be the author of but not the scribe.
Mike-
How did I misrepresent Lev 11:10-12? The Law says that eating certain creatures is also an abomination. Jesus said that not one iota of the Law was to be changed with his coming. People still living under the Law (orthodox Jews) observe all of the Law (Kosher rules and otherwise). Christians simply like to cherry-pick which OT laws they still want to live by, is all.
Did God actually speak to these scribes, or was it all just in their heads? You have to have faith on this, right? Plenty of nut jobs, cult leaders and televangelists also claim to hear God speaking to them, and plenty of them have no difficulty in getting their followers to believe them, and drink the KoolAid. I can see Obama speaking and know that he is a real person. God, on the other hand...
Those who base their morality on Biblical scripture as a final authority (without allowing for cultural development) are not arguing on solid ground. There are many things that the Bible states God has demanded that would easily be considered evil or wrong today.
Also, often missing from this discussion is how the modern day sense of love and marriage has been at odds against the order of the Church since at least the 12th Century when the idea of romantic love developed (Google Ttristan and Iseult).
And marriage has always been a legal or political institution going back to before any of the modern religions were established.
My only concern for the previous comment is that soemtimes when people use the verses that you have, that they not only miss the original context of the statements, but also seem to think that just because the gospel and salvation is preached and available to all as they are, that it means that we can stay as we are. Thus it is commonly argued that because the gospel is preached for and available to homosexuals, that it does not then demand obedience, repentance, and if necessary, abstinence. the Bible is clear on two things: God loves and calls all people to repentance and faith, and that homosexuality is a sin. We must walk the line between both. We must preach the gospel to all without reserve or prejudice and declare to a broken and sinful world that it has sinned and is worthy of the just condemnation of God.
Mea culpa. I deserve damnation for my sins as well... but God interfered. By grace alone am I saved from my sin. But I would not be so bold as to say that God's grace in forgiving those sins is then a liscence to sin now matter how much or in whatever manner I want. Let us say with Paul, that grace is not cause for sin – but repentance and faith.
While I actually do agree that civically speaking, the church should NOT oppose gays equal rights under the law (why should we seek to limit their tax or hospital visitation rights for example) but not because of a change in views about the sin of homosexuality, but because of a strong conviction in the dignity of the person rooted in the image of God, and our desire to see all people come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. I have always thought it was strange that homosexuality has become the "unforgiveable sin" of the 20th and 21st century. As if being gay precludes you from the grace dispensed on the cross where as murderers, rapists, adulterers, liars, cowards (like myself), and even bigots are free to accept the grace God has given them. We can allow for civil rights without affirming the lifestyle. The state grants legal rights concerning taxation and hosptial visitations. It is not the state's ability to declare something as "holy matrimony". that is the pronouncement reserved for the church. So we should allow the state to grant equal rights, even though we may abstain from performing marriages with the church's approval.
How can we expect to share the love of God and the gospel that brings salvation with the gay community while at the same time oppressing a whole swath of our culture and denying them basic civil rights. Now, for those Christians who may be foaming at the mouth thinking that I am only some liberal minded Christian, do not be too hasty. I believe the Bible is absolutely clear that homosexual action is a sin in need of the atoning blood of Christ. And THAT is actually the very reason why I oppose political action taken by the church, such as prop 8. If we are to have a voice in the gay community and share the good news of Christ, we cannot do it while keeping our foot on their neck. We can still stand firm that God is 100% clear that homosexuality is a sin, that no marriage will be performed in our churches, and that we will not condone such actions, BUT we can do it without ADDING offense.
Our godly vocation is to share the gospel with a broken and sinful world. So why are we so suprised that the people who we need to share the gospel with ARE sinful?
My point is, that we should be more concerned with the gospel reaching the hearts of people than just passing laws to make people externally "moral" but internally further from God than they were before. We dont ban marriage for other sins (Prop 8 doesnt ban marriage for adulterers, murderers, rapists, liars and cowards), so why single out this one?
I asked the question, where in the Bible it says marriage should be between a woman and a man. And I received this:
Gen 29:17-28; Gen 2: 18-24; II Sam 3:2-5; Matthew 19: 3-61; 1 Timothy 4:1-5 and several more.
So I started to read these scriptures and was loving all of them especially Matthew 19: 3-61. Now that one was powerful. But as I began to read more and more, I realize that all I had received was stories. (Someone’s life and situations) And I began to say oh, it doesn’t verbally say it in the Bible. Because of the events that have happen in the Bible, it is insinuated that marriage should be between a woman and a man. So then I dig deeper, when a preacher preaches, they either teach what they are TAUGHT or what they have STUDIED for themselves(my opinion). When a man or woman reads the Bible there are many different meanings because of the history of the Bible being written in Hebrews and other languages. So at the end of life’s journey, you either believe what you are taught or what you have studied for yourself. Either way, who are you to judge what someone has studied or was taught? GODS love is for everyone no matter what our opinion is or what we feel to be a fact. But I did see in Matthew 19:18-19, Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself. So no matter what your beliefs are love thy neighbor. So at the end of what we were taught or what we have studied, REMEMBER one thing JOHN 3:16, for God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER...…So when it comes to marriage to me, it is a symbol of love to that special one but not love.
you have had the best and most educated response that ive read thus far! Thank you for doing your research before passing judgement. I support my pastor 100% and happen to agree with him on his stance. Many of the people responding claim to be Christians, but proceed to pass judgement and speak of hatred. Again thank you for not talking out the side of your neck and acctually speaking facts! Bless
A religious argument FOR gay marriage? Based entirely on the fundamental teachings of a religion? And it's logical?!
Something isn't right here...
The real issue that needs to be dealt with here is the difference between a Christian marriage and a regular civil marriage. We have blended the two which has allowed for this conflict. The difference between the two is this. A Christian marriage is something holy. It a promise between a man a woman, and God to be together forever. A civil marriage still brings together two people in love and allows the goverment to recognize that union. This seperation requires a different set of rules for each. For example a Christian marriage would not allow Divorce, Homosexual marriages, and so on. Where a civil marriage would allow these things because its not a promise to God or something Holy. We need to make the distinction between these two types of marriages and move on from this issue.