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August 30th, 2010
10:58 AM ET

Catholic Church defends male-only priesthood

Barring women from being Catholic priests is not the result of sexism 2,000 years ago, it's because women cannot fulfill a basic function of the priesthood, "standing in the place of Jesus," a leading British Catholic thinker argued Monday.

"This teaching is not at all a judgment on women's abilities or rights. It says something about the specific role of the priest in Catholic understanding - which is to represent Jesus, to stand in his place," argued Father Stephen Wang in a statement sent out by the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales.

It's rare for the Catholic Church to defend its fundamental positions in this way.

Wang was responding to the announcement that campaigners for female priests will plaster posters on London buses next month during the pope's visit to London.

The ads read "Pope Benedict - Ordain Women Now!" and will be on 15 double-decker buses running in some of London's main tourist areas, including Parliament and Oxford Street, said Pat Brown, a spokeswoman for Catholic Women's Ordination (CWO).

The group spent "in excess of 10,000 pounds" ($15,500) on the ads and is hoping donations will help make up at least part of that cost, Brown told CNN Friday.

Wang rejected both the tone and the content of the ads, saying that while an atheist ad campaign last year was "hesitant and ended with gentle exhortations," this one ends "with a shout."

And it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding, said Wang, the dean of studies at London's main seminary for Catholic priests, Allen Hall.

Pope John Paul II declared in 1994 that the church has no authority to ordain women, a position confirmed a year later by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who is now Pope Benedict XVI. At the time, Ratzinger was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the arbiter of Catholic Church dogma.

Wang called the late pope's position "surprising," saying John Paul had meant he did not have the power to change "something that has been such a fundamental part of Christian identity from the beginning."

The bottom line is that Jesus chose 12 men - and no women - to be his apostles, Wang argues.

The choice was "deliberate and significant, not just for that first period of history, but for every age," Wang says.

Men and women are equal in Christianity, he continues, but "this does not mean that our sexual identity as men and women is interchangeable. Gender is not just an accident."

He compared the role of a priest to that of an actor playing King Arthur or British soccer star Wayne Rooney in a movie.

"No one would be surprised if I said I wanted a male actor to play the lead," he said, admitting the analogy was "weak."

But, he said, "it shouldn't surprise us if we expect a man to stand 'in the person of Christ' as a priest, to represent Jesus in his humanity - a humanity that is not sexually neutral."

The Catholic women's group says that in addition to its bus campaign, it plans to hold a vigil September 15, the day before the pope's visit, outside Westminster Cathedral.

The group also plans to demonstrate at Lambeth Palace, the official London residence of the Archbishop of Canterbury - the head of the Church of England - during his meeting with the pope.

And members plan to hold a banner along the route of the popemobile, the secure vehicle which carries the pope, in London.

Pope Benedict plans to visit England and Scotland September 16-19. It will be the first state visit to the United Kingdom by a pope, according to the British Foreign Office. John Paul's trip in 1982 was officially a pastoral visit.

CNN's Richard Allen Greene and Melissa Gray contributed to this report.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Anglican • Catholic Church • Leaders • Pope Benedict XVI • United Kingdom

soundoff (1,334 Responses)
  1. AB

    JC choosing solely men as disciples could simply represent the political and social realities of the time and place. Men and women that were not married likely did not mingle much (if at all) and unmarried women that mingled with men were likely not looked well upon. In addition, men were likely not willing to follow the leadership of womenl; a situation not changed that much in most of the world.

    How the Catholic Church maintains a hold on people just amazes me. They lie about what they condoned regarding sexual abuse and now they are insulting people with this lame argument.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:06 pm |
  2. Mr. Honest

    "We aren't sexist, women just aren't good enough." That’s what I'm hearing. Besides, Mary was with Jesus the entire time. It's awfully convenient to ignore that fact. Men and women are NOT equal in the eyes of the church, because if they were there would be Altar Girls instead of just Altar Boys. Priests are supposed to be representing Christ's ideals, not Christ's body. The Pope DOES have the power to ordain women as he represents God as the laws he passes are respected by heaven, according to the Catholic Church itself. Maybe women would shed some logic on faith and that’s really what the church is afraid of. The truth is, women can get pregnant and the church doesn't want to have to pay to raise a family. That’s the reason priests can't get married. It's draconian logic. The church and its ridiculous ideals should just go away. They should just donate their amassed wealth to Cancer research, dismantle their churches and send the raw materials to the latest disaster relief and forget their entire ridiculous sham.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:06 pm |
  3. Santino

    The Bible says:

    I Timothy 3:12 - 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children and their own houses.

    I Timothy 3:2 - 2 It behoves therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,

    If a church chooses to ignore the bible, perhaps the religion practiced could be based on a good Steven King novel instead.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:06 pm |
    • Stephen

      Yeah, but this creates another fallacy. While those passages say only men can be bishops and deacons, it also says these male bishops and deacons must be married to one wife.

      What say you now, Popey Mcpopeface?

      My point being, people can pick and choose scripture to back up anything and everything they want.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:34 pm |
    • Lisa

      According to several classes I've had on the Bible, this particular letter to Timorthy by Paul was written about a specific church having issues with women in leadership roles. Because the early Christians were converted Jews, and the Jewish faith didn't have women in leadership. Paul was trying to smoothe over issues this ONE church had.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:41 pm |
    • bdhutier

      Ok, because most of the Bishops were already married (the Church has just been founded by Jesus), the Bishops were only allowed to have one wife, ie. no polygamy. Then, if the wife passed away, the Bishop could not remarry. Paul's not saying the Bishops MUST be married.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:00 pm |
    • Josh

      Too bad you don't seem to realize what is so obvious to so many. Jesus did not speak in ENGLISH. You can't pretend that those quotes, which you make in ENGLISH, are Jesus's own words. They are not even close to being equivalent. to the scrolls since found.

      King James and Pope Greggory The Great had their own agenda when they commissioned these translations.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:31 pm |
    • DavidMichael

      Actually bdhutier,

      Paul is indeed saying that a Bishop MUST be married. While you are likely unfamiliar with Judaism, a Rabbi MUST be married. The same would apply to these Jewish followers of Jesus. Also, until 300 A.D., women were actively involved in the Church as Priests and even a Bishop. It was Roman influence full of sexism that rendered Mary Magdalene into the role of Prostitute when there is no biblical reference to believe such. If Jesus found Mary Magdalene good enough to be both disciple then apostle, why do you have a problem with a female as a lowly priest? is Church modern tradition more important than the example of Jesus himself? Clearly you and others believe so.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:38 pm |
    • Peacemaker

      Santino, you are quoting the WORDS of Paul....... a man who was very much a religious Jew, and whom viewed women as inferior. GOD created us ALL EQUAL.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:40 pm |
    • bdhutier

      Equal? Yes.
      The same? No...

      August 30, 2010 at 3:47 pm |
    • Raymond

      The problem is that Christians are not following Jesus, they are following Paul's teachings as well as other men's teachings over time. The religion has been built and fashioned and edited and reworked many times to the current status. Jesus said very little in the bible, and most of what people believe about him are contradictory to what he preached. He was as Jew and he preached only to the Jews as he says and he did not come to die for the sins of the world. I encourage you to read the Quran to get a better sense of Jesus and see how the Quran corrects the Bible. This is why priest and ministers are entering Islam.

      August 30, 2010 at 5:10 pm |
    • Abudu Mukarram

      Why quote the letters apostle Paul wrote giving his opinions on what he thought the scriptures meant? Paul was not a disciple or prophet. So Mr. Santino, why do or should his opinionated letters supersede what was said by the those who were prophets of God in the Old Testament? Paul didn't care for women anyway. His reasons for not involving women in religion were not for any intelligent reasons, which there are many, I believe they were strictly because he didn't care for women in general.

      August 30, 2010 at 6:53 pm |
  4. Magesterium

    The Catholic Church, like any other institution, has Her rules. You can choose to follow them or not follow them. But for the sake of the millions who like the rules as they are, please stop trying to change them. If you want to ordain women as clergy in YOUR church, go ahead and do so. Quit demanding that my Church change to suit your whims.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:06 pm |
  5. Roger Blatto

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). It is amazing that this institution called the Catholic church has been allowed by its followers to continue with its 1st century prejudices, even in light of the verse above. The gospel grew out of a culture where men dominated woman in both the home as well as society. Not much different than many muslim and asians countries today. As Western values freed women in many countries from this ingrained chauvenistic culture and belief system, most enlightened churches also followed. Sad fact is that the Catholic church, with all its followers, has been and continues to die the slow death of irrelevance because of it bigotry. Show me a female Pope and I might reconsider my opinions concerning Catholic leadership and the sheep that refuse to express a voice of disapproval.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:05 pm |
  6. bandgeek1

    Psst...Someone tell Wang that Jesus clearly demonstrated who he felt should lead his followers when he "revealed himself first to Mary". Seems like a clear statement to me, but I'm just a dumb girl. And speaking of dumb girls, one reason Jesus chose men was because men were the only people who could read as it was illegal to teach women. The Jewish laws written in the Torah and Talmud could only be interpreted by men. In the book of the Bible known as the Apocrapha (spelling?) women were given a much high position in the development of the Christian faith.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:05 pm |
  7. Mattski

    This as an internal issue for the Catholic Church. Frankly, my relationship with jesus has no one standing in-between, certainly not a member of today's established "Church".

    August 30, 2010 at 12:04 pm |
    • bdhutier

      Whew... good thing it's not Jesus' Church, you know, the one HE established and deligated His authority to in Matthew 16...

      August 30, 2010 at 12:54 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Mattski,

      This is a non-issue for the Catholic Church. It may be an issue in these foolish maidens minds......

      August 31, 2010 at 9:27 am |
  8. The One

    Big surprise! Blame it on Jesus! WWJD today not 2000 years ago.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:03 pm |
  9. Dan, TX

    If women don't like it they can start their own Catholic church with a woman Pope.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:01 pm |
    • no one

      WOW, you are a MORON

      August 30, 2010 at 1:33 pm |
  10. Ken

    I'm pretty sure the bible tells stupid women to shut up.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:01 pm |
    • Luke

      or just kill them, sadly enough.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:21 pm |
  11. Matt

    All of these comments so far have no basis in any logical reasoning, and fail to even consider the theological arguments in the article.....ignorance....complete ignorance

    August 30, 2010 at 12:00 pm |
    • John

      Your "theological arguments" were devised by men hellbent on denying the Marys their true place in history.

      Or does the word 'misogynist' when referring to the clergy not ring a true note for you?

      August 30, 2010 at 12:22 pm |
    • The Tooth Fairy

      Riiiight.. because theology is completely based on logic....

      August 30, 2010 at 12:59 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      @Matt

      Perhaps you didn't read Scripture closely enough. Were you abused as a child? God does these things for a reason, but we are not allowed to ask Him why he wants us to abuse children. If they die from their injuries, a special mass is held to commemorate our growth along the Path of Truth.
      You accuse us of ignorance, but that is because you don't know Him and how it feels to be the abuser.
      Reach out with your feelings. Let go, Matt. Find the nearest Priest and ask for "absolution". It doesn't cost much and there are always nuns around to clean up the mess afterward. You might want to try it.

      August 31, 2010 at 11:06 am |
  12. CatholicMom

    Why do women think they can stand in for Jesus, in Personna Christi? Do they not know Catholic dogma cannot be changed by anyone?

    All the Apostles were men and they and their successors are as ‘fathers’ to us. Read all of 1 Cor 4; here is just part of that Chapter………………
    14
    I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
    15
    Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
    16
    Therefore, I urge you, be imitators of me.
    17
    For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ (Jesus), just as I teach them everywhere in every church.

    ………..Read 1 John 2, also……..here are parts of it.......

    13
    I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have conquered the evil one.
    14
    I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God remains in you, and you have conquered the evil one.
    15
    Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16
    For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.

    Women cannot be FATHERS…..
    Trying to be Fathers is trying to lead a PRETENTIOUS life…it is not the will of our Father in Heaven.

    ……….Women who try to be priests are not Catholic. They call themselves ‘Catholic Women's Ordination’, what a scandal.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:00 pm |
    • aubrie

      The REAL scandal is that the Catholic church has brainwashed you into believing this load of crap.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:08 pm |
    • Grondahl

      Now, now, CatholicMom, let's not allow scriptural explanations get in the way of outsider outrage.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:09 pm |
    • Luke

      I came from a broken home. My mother was dad too. In fact, she spent more time throwing me pitches to practice baseball than she did teaching me laundry. She taught me to defend myself, a blackbelt herself. She taught me to drive stick shift and how to shave my face when I turned 13. She taught me how to talk to girls and be a gentleman on dates. Soon, she will teach me how to be a good father as I am recently married. In nature, it is very rare for the male to stick around long, leaving the mother of young to teach the skills of hunting and self preservation. In most primate families, our closest relatives, the male has a pack of females and does not raise children either. You just look at things metaphorically as usual. I bet to differ lady – women can be good fathers.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:19 pm |
    • Ellid

      You're ignoring Mary Magdalen, the Apostle to the Apostles, who believed in the Resurrection before any of the Twelve did. You're also ignoring St. Paul's reliance on women such as Junia, "an apostle equal to myself," Phoebe, the deacon of the church at Cenchraea, his patron Lydia, and one of his chief missionaries, Prisca.

      Finally, you're ignoring the clear and unambiguous visual evidence of female ordination until at least the fourth century: a mosaic in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) where a woman's portrait is captioned "THEODORA EPISCOPA," or "Bishop Theodora" in English. A later hand attempted to deface the caption, but it's still quite readable, which leads me to ask why a woman could be a bishop less than three hundred years after Jesus' mission on earth but not today.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:19 pm |
    • John

      Perhaps if you knew the truth about the Catholic church, you'd know true scandal has resided in Rome for sometime, and that the New Testament was redacted by this church you profess to know so well..

      August 30, 2010 at 12:19 pm |
    • Frogist

      @Catholic Mom: How do you define "father"? Do the transgendered fit the bill? M to F or F to M, either way one could argue that they are male. As Luke quite rightly pointed out, you don't have to be male to provide a father figure for your children. Is it all about the reproductive aspect of it?
      I find it hard to understand why women willingly accept the parts of religion that seem to enjoy demoting them.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:39 pm |
    • Cnthomas

      The first apostles were not only all men but also all Jewish! The Church had no problem changing that in a hurry.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:40 pm |
    • Don't Distort

      The struggle to keep the masses under control continues. As long as there is organized religion in the world, there will be oppression. Free yourself from these evil inst-itutions that brainwash you into believing that you are not good enough to do anything. It's sad that people like catholic mom just roll over and accept that someone who has never met her can decide if she is smart enough, intelligent enough, or strong enough to 'do something'. It's shameful that they do this to her and others like her, and sad that she doesn't have the will to stand up to the fallacy that it represents.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:41 pm |
    • The Jackdaw

      Simpleton.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:47 pm |
    • tj

      Anyone male can be a father. It takes an active parent, male or female, to be mother and sometimes father to children of the world. Absent parenting and abuse are chronic problems. I can assure you that the behavior of some do not fall within the realm of parent child!

      August 30, 2010 at 12:57 pm |
    • Peacemaker

      Catholic dogma?????? It is CHRIST'S TEACHINGS ALONE THAT WE SHOULD LIVE.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:38 pm |
    • Peacemaker

      One more thing, CatholicMom, you are forgetting that in the Bible it also says that you can sell your daughter, keep slaves, that if you sin with your eyes you need to cut them out, etc. GOD CREATED US ALL EQUAL. GOD IS BOTHER FATHER AND MOTHER TO US. Peace by with you......... you need to read the Gospel of Matthew. Paul's letters also include mentions of women as deacons! And priests are not perfect many priests give our Lord a bad name!

      August 30, 2010 at 1:50 pm |
    • Amanda

      Excellent points Ellid and Peacemaker. I'm not saying all Catholics are like this, but a majority of them pick which rules to live by and which rules to ignore. Which is fine -they have every right to do that. However, when you pick and choose like that, in my book you lose the ability to reference the Bible to prove your point. If you don't believe in EVERYTHING in the Bible, you can't then use it to try to convince me I'm wrong.

      August 30, 2010 at 2:09 pm |
    • TammyB

      You know there are PreistESSES....women that are female priests. I suppose I kinda agree with some people here, that if you don't want the Catholic church to change, then you should leave it and find the religion that suits you better. People are leaving in droves, however. Don't you think it's time that the Catholic church look at the way they are running things? I am married to a Catholic who left a while back, because it seems the Catholic church is more into pomp and circumstance, old-time "shows" than really teaching about Christ. Everything evolves or it generally dies out. I feel sorry for the Catholic church because I think it's going that way. They refuse to come to the 21st Century.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:22 pm |
    • colum 1948

      this book you are talking about was writen 50 to 150 years after the death of the Palestinian name Jesus died .By the way he had no time for the boss the Jews. So those of you who want to fall Jesus ,stay away from all Chrisian churchs as well.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:34 pm |
    • BigJ

      To CatholicMom I saw this posted elsewhere and thought to myself that since you have quoted from the Bible and by your post are saying that one is required to follow what is in the bible verbatim I thought you might want to see this:

      :I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.
      Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations.
      I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.
      A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.
      Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27.
      I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

      My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

      The point of it all is that you can cherry pick anything from the bible to suit your argument. If everyone were to live literally by what's in the bible there wouldn't be too many of us left. We'd either be dead or in jail for murder.

      Just sayin'

      August 30, 2010 at 5:43 pm |
    • May

      CatholicMom:
      Thank-you for standing up for our faith. Pay no mind to those who know no better. Perhaps one day, God will call them also.

      August 30, 2010 at 6:12 pm |
    • chaosandcalamity

      There are fundamental things that the Church has changed over the millenia–firstly the translation of the Bible itself!! I studied ancient Greek in college, and then read the original NT–not any English translation. The Catholic Church (or any Christian denomination) would have no leg to stand on if the Bible was translated accurately.

      Second, Jesus was Jewish. He was considered a teacher, and therefore he was most likely married. If not, he would have been considered a failure and no one would have listened to him–and he wouldn't have had apostles in the first place.

      Third, women *can* and *do* marry the church–I don't understand how a nun can be considered lower than a priest. Shouldn't the fact that they have given up the world to a life of service to God be enough? Or is only a man's sacrifice good enough for God?

      Fourth, how can a person follow Jesus' message, in any religion, while discriminating (and yes, this does count as discrimination, because it is forbidding a task to a person based on their sex even though their sex has absolutely no effect on their ability to fulfill said job) against any other member of the same faith? It boggles my mind. Jesus was a radical feminist in his time. Most early Christians were WOMEN who then converted their husbands. And yet an organization created by a man in a deeply chauvinistic society (Rome) continues to dictate to women what they are and are not spiritually capable of. Especially an organization that reveres the BVM and other women saints.

      I'm not Catholic, so I don't get it. But in the words of a very logical and well thought-out movie (written and directed by a Catholic), "(Catholics) don't celebrate your faith. You mourn it."

      August 30, 2010 at 7:37 pm |
    • SimpleReally

      One notices that people on this issue always quote Paul... A MAN!

      Is your Church and beliefs Christian or Paulian (Pauline as some people call it)?

      August 30, 2010 at 9:23 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Luke,
      You are right, a home without a father is 'broken' but it sounds like your Mom did her very best for you; however, this does not mean that your Mom would/should want to try to change the priesthood of the Church that Jesus Christ founded by becoming an ordained priest. This Father she cannot be.

      August 31, 2010 at 9:03 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Frogist,
      I would think that men would be up in arms over people trivializing fatherhood. I know, they trivialize motherhood, too, to the point of many women aborting their babies but that trend is hopefully on the mend. But there is something that each parent, a father and mother, bestow to their children and it has nothing to do with fishing or hunting. There is an essense of what it is to be a man and an essense of what it is to be a woman that only they can flourish on their baby/child. Just holding and loving that child by each parent helps impart this essense....and both parents are needed for this to take place in the proper way.

      August 31, 2010 at 9:15 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Don't Distort,
      I have always known that I was ‘smart enough, intelligent enough, or strong enough’, as you say, to do whatever I set my mind to do. I tried to never be foolish in my desires in life. This made it possible to make great strides without the hindrances of pitfalls caused by nonsense.

      August 31, 2010 at 9:23 am |
    • Frogist

      @Catholic Mom, how does your response answer my question or the points I brought up?

      August 31, 2010 at 11:47 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Frogist,
      You asked how do I define 'father'....mainly....as 'man'. 'Mother', then, is ....'woman'. Or, male ...and female. etc. etc. etc.

      September 1, 2010 at 11:53 am |
    • ICEMAN

      Luke i understand what you are saying but no you are wrong here.
      But that was a good try

      September 2, 2010 at 12:41 am |
    • ICEMAN

      ROME THE CITY ON 7 HILLS.........HUUUUM

      September 2, 2010 at 1:23 am |
    • ICEMAN

      @ PeaceMaker i think you need to reread what you are saying and think about it? Also try reading verses around the ones you are trying to make points with.

      September 2, 2010 at 1:29 am |
  13. vicarkatz

    Frankly, to stand in the place of Jesus, does not require certain male appendages. To say that only men can stand in the place of Jesus is to say that women are unredeemable. And we know that's not true, otherwise you wouldn't even allow them to be nuns. so Rome, take a good look at what your real theology is all about, becasue it doesn't appear that you really understand Jesus and his message.

    August 30, 2010 at 12:00 pm |
    • bdhutier

      Rome absolutely understands what it's theology is about, you apparently don't. The redeemability of women is an irrelevant argument, and shows how little you truly understand. All humanity is redeemable through the grace of God.

      Jesus was male. His diciples were male. Jesus is the groom, and His Church is His bride. How can a woman be a groom? She can't, and that's the point. For a priest to act in persona Christi, the Church must be his bride, therefore he must be male. End of story.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:44 pm |
    • BR

      bdhutier-Hard to see through all this fundie fog. A priest is just a guy giving a message...nothing more no matter how much Latin you want to spew. He isn't transformed or has no direct connection to the man. If they did, you Catholics would have a lot less blood and pedophilia on your hands. How about transubstantiation/ At best, it's a metaphor taken way too seriously. At worst, a truly sick concept to teach, but I would presume you believe it literally.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:27 pm |
    • verify

      End of story... indeed. And the sooner the better for the ending of this "story", and all of its myths, legends, supersti_tions and fantasies.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:29 pm |
    • Amanda

      bdhutier,

      Please see Liz's comment above about Jesus being of Semitic blood. So by your logic, all priests should have to be Jewish, no?

      August 30, 2010 at 1:51 pm |
    • bdhutier

      BR: A priest is not just "a guy giving a message," he is ordained by God, through His Church, and commanded by Jesus Christ to act in the person of Christ. As a non-Catholic, I don't expect you to understand that.

      Either way, don't talk to me about pedophilia. Talk to the public school system whose teachers (mostly women) are more than 100% times as likely to molest a child, or MARRIED protestant ministers who are twice as likely.

      Amanda: Race has nothing to do with it. The priest must be a man to be the bridegroom to the Church. You can be any race to be a husband, as long as you're a man.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:19 pm |
    • fitzpat

      bdhutier

      So by your logic (i.e. how can a woman be a groom?), how can a man be a bride? If Jesus is the groom then no man, according to your interprutation, can be in the church as no man can be a "bride"... unless of course you are suggesting that the entire church militant is homosexual in nature?

      August 30, 2010 at 4:44 pm |
    • Diane

      @bdhutier. That whole the church is the bride and Jesus is the groom is a METAPHOR! It does not prove that women should not be allowed to be priests. Before you belittle people, maybe you should have a better understanding of the Bible. If you understood the teachings of Jesus, I don't think you would say such things. The people that wrote the Bible were men, because it was not acceptable back then for women's writings to be included in what we call the Bible today. So obviously, it would be from a man's perspective and any women "apostles" would not be called apostles. I don't think Jesus would condone prejudice, which is exactly what this is.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:50 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      BR,
      How cold and far from the Truth.

      August 31, 2010 at 8:50 am |
    • Frogist

      @bdhutier: re: pedophilia in schools. when you point at someone else, the other fingers are always pointing back at you. In other words just cause you say it happens elsewhere, that doesn't excuse it from happening in your church.

      August 31, 2010 at 11:41 am |
    • ICEMAN

      @ Bdhutier, i was going to go there with you but CatholicMom said it in a very quick, shortened version, so i have to say nothing

      September 2, 2010 at 12:38 am |
  14. Jenn

    Original sin hasn't always existed as a concept so it's not that.
    Any one who studies theology for more than a semester can tell you that the thought process behind is argument is flat out incorrect. There is very strong evidence that women originally (the first several hundred years of A.D) lead catholic worship ceremonies before being unceremoniously booted.
    (as a footnote: Women constitute *more* than half of the national and world population and considerably more than half of the catholic church.)

    August 30, 2010 at 11:58 am |
  15. Rich

    How about religion is just absurd. Stop believing in these fairy tales of super god with their superpower kids. Grow up and reject all religion and superstition and start to believe in the reality of the universe and use science to get at answers, not some nutty stories of magic and gods.

    August 30, 2010 at 11:58 am |
  16. with-a-z

    If someone does not like the way the Catholic Church does things, then why don't they just find someplace else to belong to the "church of me"? Being Catholic means you believe in, support, and live by the teachings of the Church. These women are as Protestant as Luther. They can't just pick and choose – the Church is not a democracy. This has absolutely nothing to do women not being "good enough". That is ridiculous. I has everything to do with the fact that Jesus Christ is a man (He is still alive you know), and that a woman can not and never will be a man. So until 'In Persona Christi" is understood by these heretics, they will continue to get their panties in a bunch over something they clearly don't get. Move along, and give it up. It's never going to happen – the Church will never ordain women. Thank God!!

    August 30, 2010 at 11:57 am |
    • Kate

      @with-a-z

      You know, the Catholic Church would have been really borked if Jesus had been a hermaphrodite ... Nah, not really – they'd still have found a way to turn around and find justification to be a men only club 😛

      Just sayin'

      August 30, 2010 at 12:01 pm |
    • Matt

      Thank You!!!!

      August 30, 2010 at 12:01 pm |
    • Sam

      I agree...why do you have to change what the church stands for if some disagree...just go to a church that you believe in their doctrine and worship accordingly.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:09 pm |
    • Luke

      What about hermaphrodites? What is your view? Surely a human that looks like a man might have female reprodutive organs. That happens from time to time due to genetic mutations. Does the church have a "lift the leg and check things out" policy, or do you just go by facial features?

      August 30, 2010 at 12:14 pm |
    • Rod

      Please don't compare those who want to ordain females in the Catholic Church to Luther. Luther did not support ordaining women, even if some of his modern day folloewrs do.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:16 pm |
    • steeve-o

      There you go, if you don't like it, leave the Catholic church. That'll boost the Sunday attendance numbers.

      Looks like Catholicism is on its way to being a dried up, old religion. They'll be selling ad space on the Vatican soon.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:16 pm |
    • Brian

      People want everything. They want to be good-cathoilics, but not have to get up on sunday, and also have abortions and gay marriage.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:19 pm |
    • Cynthia

      If someone does not like the way the Catholic Church does things, then why don't they just find someplace else to belong to the "church of me"?

      That's exactly what I did. The Catholic church wants to treat me as a second-class citizen, so I walked. Many of us do that, and it is the Church's loss. Eventually they will run out of men who choose celibacy, and the Church will fail. It is stagnant, not a growing, living community.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:27 pm |
    • Kirstyloo

      While I agree, leaving the church is clearly an option and one that many Catholics are taking everyday. That being said, the fundamental arguement is flawed. None of the original 12 were gentiles; however, priests can be gentiles. Christ, as a person, needed a gender...and based on the time and place...it needed to be male. After his death, he became the resurrected Christ and we became one in him. Once he was here certain divisions became meaningless...There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:28).

      If a priest is supposed "to become Christ" during the mass, I would point out that a man (or woman) is a poor substitute for Chirst. And that it is really shortsighted so say that being a man is better than being a woman when your are trying to represent the God of the Universe. Our human failings (and history thought time shows that priest clearly have these) make us a much poorer representation of Christ than gender every would.

      If you go by the rules that Peter and Paul used to bring gentiles into the fold, you'd say...anyone who is given a gift from God to lead...let them lead.
      Personally, I feel that gender is

      August 30, 2010 at 12:27 pm |
    • Son_74

      Wow...Won't you all be shocked when an elephant with 8 arms shows up at the end of time...then we will be laughing!!! LOL! Seriously though...who ever truly believes the Adam and Eve story, I feel sorry for you. Like give me a break people! The catholics, Christians, Mormons, Muslims and even the Jehovah's have been and still are a threat to women and equality. Everyone of the religions I named only serve men...a few allow them to marry many women (at the age of 9), beat them, hide them, stone them...I can go on and on. Religion is the true evil in the world and it's time is running out.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:28 pm |
    • Eric

      That's exactly what I did. However, be careful what you wish for..... http://www.ncccusa.org/news/090130yearbook1.html

      August 30, 2010 at 12:29 pm |
    • Lisa

      I hope all women follow your suggestion and leave the Catholic church. I "thank God' I am not a member.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:34 pm |
    • Liz

      Jesus was also of semitic blood. I assume you also want all those African priests to give up their job, correct? Well of course not, Corinthians says "There is no gentile or Jew, black or white, WOMAN OR MAN, before the eyes of God." I think that sums it up quite well.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:37 pm |
    • Asmit4

      I did and MANY people like myself and my husband are leaving. We used to be good standing members. I taught catechism classes, my husband was a reader and a eucharistic minister. We just can't do it any longer. We've found another church (United Church of Christ) that fits our beliefs to a 'T' 🙂 I agree- if people disagree with their religion they ought to do some soul searching and change. YES, it's hard to do, YES, it may cause family strife...but it's the right thing to do 🙂

      August 30, 2010 at 12:39 pm |
    • angela

      Spoken like a truly blind sheep. The Church has definitely NOT followed the teachings of Jesus to the letter, but has cherry picked what suits them. We are all the beneficiaries of the split between the Orthodox Christians and the Gnostics that began in around the 300's, with bloody and devastating effects. Everything must be understood through that lens. Mary Magdalene was the FIRST and most loved Apostle privy to information not shared with the others, Paul was too jealous of that and struck her from her rightful place and her Gospel is to this day considered heretical. Who among the 12 Apostles where at His Crucifixion and Resurrection? Sadly, these antiquated views are destined to burry the Church in the ashes of antiquity. There were no European Apostles either, so how can they stand for Jesus now? What silliness this glorified boys club has turned into over the past two thousand years. I wonder what He would think if he saw us today. Sad

      August 30, 2010 at 12:44 pm |
    • Mark

      I really do not understand why a woman would want to be part of the catholic church much less any one else. Their history shows who they really are. Take your money some place else and bring your husbands along. If all woman leave the church, you will quickly see a rethinking of the policy. The Catholic church has a history of being about the money and when you take it away, they will want it back. If you disagree with me tell me about the 15th, 16th 17th centuries.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:49 pm |
    • Lynn

      If Jesus was supposedly "not sexually neutral," then why do priests take a vow of celibacy, forcing them to completely deny a very basic component of their humanity??? Ask victims of priest pedophilia how that's working out...I do agree that you can not pick and choose which parts of the Catholic religion to subscribe to – to do so is hypocrisy. Unfortunately, many of us who were brainwashed since birth find it upsetting and confusing to apply such archaeic and hypocritical teachings to our adult lives and end up in a long search for permanent "spiritual homes."

      August 30, 2010 at 12:54 pm |
    • Jerry

      As a practicing, cradle-Catholic, it still annoys me that the hierarchy keeps conveniently overlooking the fact that Rome is not the Church, the Pope is not the Church....WE are the Church. The ruling to ban women as priests could not have been "ex cathedra," since it has nothing to do with faith or morals so it does not enjoy infallibility. It was just a policy statement by the good ol' boys' club. Case in point, the priests of the Eastern Rite Church (Greek and Russian Orthodox) are just as Catholic as I am...yet they marry while the priests of the Western Church can't. The no-women-priests rule is just as arbitrary. Additionally, with the current concerted effort (here in the U.S. at least) to screen homosexuals out of the ranks of seminary applicants, the shortage of priests is bound to become even more accute than it now is. I think it is time the modern Church finally admitted the role women played in the early Church (Mary Magdalene, et al) and allow them back into the clergy.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:54 pm |
    • Ryan

      with a-z,

      So Jesus is still alive? Where is he? How do you know that?
      Just wondering.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:55 pm |
    • LB Colorado

      Jesus did not suck at his job. The catholic church priest suck at their jobs. When you can't do the job God gave you with purity and righteousness, step a side and let someone help the people. They have a nurturing GOD GIVEN GIFT, to do the impossible.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:01 pm |
    • Dan R.

      A belief in religions will always be regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rich and powerful as useful.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:02 pm |
    • Amanda

      "Being Catholic means you believe in, support, and live by the teachings of the Church." This is exactly the problem. Shouldn't you believe in, support, and live by the teachings of Christ? That's the problem with most organized religion – you take anything the church tells you as the "word of God", when really it's just the word of the church.........which is run by MEN. Unfortunately, the Bible is all about interpretation, and they can change the interpretations they feed to you to make you believe anything. They can manipulate the words to justify just about anything. The fact is, you have to read the Bible yourself and decide what you think it means. Because the fact is, anytime a priest tells you what the Bible says, he's really just telling you what he THINKS it says.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:15 pm |
    • Kathy

      I love it. Jesus is supposedly the 'Son of God' not exactly human is he? The statement that women cannot stand for Jesus because Jesus is a man doesn't make sense and is still, like it always was, relegating women to serving priests (as a stand in for Jesus) as nuns as the only role that a woman can have in the Catholic Church. Think about it. The only saintly woman the chuch has is Mary who birthed the son of God even though she was a virgin. We just can't have someone who actually had sex to be holy, therfore Mary had to be 'full of grace' and give birth to the Son of God without having sex.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:17 pm |
    • BR

      Absolutely!!! The church isn't a democracy...it's a joke that few people get. Funny how you people claim that the word is somehow unchanging. But you pick and choose what you want to believe based on social conventions of the day (or 50 years or so behind the current day) Plenty of things in you'd like to ignore the old testamement that have nothing to do with J's atonement for sin. The church is an organism that grows and changes over time, (like the plague) however slowly and the question isn't when will women get to be priests. The two questions are, why would they want to hold the reigns of something that has systematically discriminated against them as a class...and when will they get the punch line of the aforementioned joke?

      August 30, 2010 at 1:17 pm |
    • Peacemaker

      @Amanda, millions of us, Catholics follow the teachings of Christ. Millions of us, denounce the Vatican as being totally out of touch and totally mistaken about Christ. The Vatican has proven over and over that it is about power. I doubt that Jesus would approve of the pope and cardinals wearing their jewels, Versage shoes, their grandiose robes and having people kiss them! Jesus IS my Lord, I remain a Catholic-Christian, in hopes of changing the church one member at a time. Peace.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:29 pm |
    • mytoys666

      People lie you are the reason that I haven' t stepped in a church in over 30 years. I just don't care anymore. Do whatever you want just don't tell me what to do.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:45 pm |
    • Amanda

      @Peacemaker,

      Good for you. If more Christians were like you, the world would be a much better place!

      August 30, 2010 at 1:48 pm |
    • independent

      Where in the New Testiment is it asked of the apostles to represent Jesus?

      August 30, 2010 at 1:48 pm |
    • John B

      As a life long Catholic I have been taking it on the chin as of late. The church CAN and Will change over time. Lets not forget the Catholic Church at one point argued the world was flat. Over time things change. The core belief is not based on a male or female. The core belief with never change. The things around it will.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:49 pm |
    • DeclanMcman

      If priests must be the same as the apostles, why limiit the restriction to gender?. The apostles were all Semitic people who spoke Aramaic. Following his reasoning, European males should be barred from being priests because they are not of Middle Eastern origin. Black men should never be allowed to become priests under this reasoning. It is arbitrary to allow men of different races to stand in Jesus' place during mass but not allow women to do so based purely on their gender, when neither race nor gender has any relation to the actual roles they are playing. This is clearly post hoc reasoning to defend sexism.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:08 pm |
    • worldiscrazy

      I have been Catholic for a while. I think women play a big role in church too. Nuns dedicate their lives for Christ as well. It's just that as old as the church is, there are a lot of traditions in place. I don't see men complaining that they can't be "nuns". I don't see this as gender prejudice at all. And for people who say priests should be able to get married, there are also deacons positions available for married Catholics.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:28 pm |
    • Rachel

      Exactly what I was going to say, John B. The "love it or leave it" attitude is the same that led to burning people at the stake, declaring that the earth is flat, etc., etc. If something is true, it CAN STAND UP TO SCRUTINY! Truth does not fear the light of day; truth does not fear questions; truth does not fear time.
      To those of you who want to hide your "truth" in a shroud of unquestioning loyalty, answer me this...how do you know that the Church is currently at a point of "perfection" where no changes need to be made - in light of the fact that the Church's ideas have changed tremendously throughout history? Remember that the church used to let priests marry; then it changed that due to inheritance complications. The church used to declare that the earth was flat; but it doesn't now. The church used to burn people at the stake for not believing church dogma, but it doesn't anymore. Etc., etc., etc. Things change, even in the church. Someone, some time, somewhere, said what you're saying now about the earth being flat, about people being burnt at the stake for heresy, etc.. They were wrong. You could be too...

      August 30, 2010 at 4:40 pm |
    • JohnBS1

      Actually there was a 'lift the leg and check' program for popes – http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican39.htm
      The chair is still in the Vatican

      August 31, 2010 at 12:39 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Cynthia,

      If you had taken time to understand your Catholic faith you would never have left. It seems strange that people call themselves Catholic but some never really are.

      August 31, 2010 at 8:46 am |
    • Frogist

      I disagree with all those saying if you don't like it then leave. Seems like you shouldn't have to abandon something you care about just because there is one thing that is obviously wrong. I say try to change it from the inside. Don't just give up on it. Find others like you,, discuss it with people within your church and try to create real change. Moving from one place to another won't fix the problem. It just dishes the problem off to someone else.

      August 31, 2010 at 11:32 am |
    • ICEMAN

      @ peacemaker it i was catholic i would be afraid of women.

      September 1, 2010 at 5:54 am |
    • Diane

      Please tell me exactly how having a penis means that you can represent Jesus? People are not perfect, and everyone has some issues representing the one perfect person who ever lived. To tell me that you can represent Jesus better than I can because of your s-e-x-ual organs is just ridiculous. I think people should stand up for what they believe in. If they truly believe in the Catholic Church and know it is wrong to exclude women from the priesthood, then I am glad they are doing something about it instead of abandoning the church. However, I don't blame them for leaving because they were discriminated against. Nobody should turn a blind eye to prejudice. I believe that Jesus would love to have women represent Him. He is not a bigot, like you are. That is obvious when you say "don't get your panties in a bunch" and "the church will never ordain women, thank god." I pray that you are not married and have no daughters.

      September 1, 2010 at 3:54 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      ICEMAN,

      .....just the ones that want to be priests, right?

      September 1, 2010 at 10:39 pm |
    • ICEMAN

      ?

      September 1, 2010 at 11:37 pm |
    • ICEMAN

      @ With-a-z you said being Catholic means you believe in, support, and live by the teaching of the church.
      OK then tell me why and where it tells you that your church is above the bible? "that's what one of your holy popes said.
      THEN WHY DID YOU INTEGRATE ALL THEM "PAGAN RITUALS AND BELIEFS INTO YOUR CHURCH. GOD SAID DON'T WORSHIP ME LIKE THEY DO. YALL HAVE MIXED OUR SAVIOUR AND OTHER GODS. EX...DEC 25....BROKE THE 4COMMANDMENT OPENLY AT THE 1ST COUNCIL AND THE 2ND COMMANDMENT AT THE SECOND COUNCIL......." IS THIS WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT WHEN YOU SAY LIVE BY THE TEACHING OFTHE CHURCH?

      Then you said These women are as Protestant as Luther, they can't pick and choose. You know why Martin Luther left, cause he knew they been lying. What they was teaching wasn't the truth. I'm not saying he was right also just saying that "That by you daying that for me is a PLUS to women cause it tells me they can think for thier own".

      last thing THEY CAN'TPICK AND CHOOSE? HEY PICK AND CHOOSING IS BETTER THAN MAKING THINGS UP. comment was and for the people of faith.

      September 2, 2010 at 12:06 am |
    • ICEMAN

      @ Angela....... Gnostics who are they? some of the Catholics need to look them up and they will find out that their church wasn't the first, they were many kinds of christian faith, THE RCC JUST WON THE "WE WILL TRY TO RULE THE WORLD GAME THEY WAS PLAYING BY THEMSELVES". Wait no European Apostles? WHAT!!! hey you must have alittle knowledge about history. Well what was their color/where were they from/ why did God tell Joseph to hide Yeshua in Egypt? Why are all the angels white? Why is Moses white? Where there any paintings of Yeshua before 14ad? If so what colour he was in those paintings? Who was the first painter to paint Yeshua white? THIS IS SUPPOSE TO BE YESHUA'S BRIDE, THEN WHY IS THE BRIDE COVERING UP WHAT HER HUSBAND LOOKED LIKED? IS SHE ASHAMED OF HIM? I think so that is why they have to mix their religion with pagan traditions. Easter for example........

      September 2, 2010 at 1:13 am |
  17. Kate

    So not only is Jesus relegated to a glorified outsourced answering service for God, but his gender is the default excuse for why there can't be women priests. Just how long *are* Christians going to keep guilt tripping on Eve for that apple?

    As for the disciples ... the Catholic Church has been trying to pointedly not notice Mary Magdalene for a couple of millenia now.

    Just sayin'

    August 30, 2010 at 11:49 am |
    • John

      Mary Magdalene, The First Apostle.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:18 pm |
    • Peacemaker

      I agree. Sad but true. In my 57 years as Catholic, I have come to know that the majority of priests are afraid of women.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:25 pm |
    • ThinkAloud9

      To the contrary, many priests really like women. I mean, they REALLY like them! Especially nuns.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:55 pm |
    • Flora

      I think the reason they're trying to ignore her is because she was a prostitute – a group that the Catholic Church has historically taught their parishioners to spit on. And also becuase Jesus saved her by warning the men against the sin of judgementality, a trait that they've based practically everything they teach on.

      August 30, 2010 at 5:13 pm |
    • Beastlymaster

      One of the biggest reasons that males have the priesthood is that they need it to obtain perfection. Women don't need to have the priesthood to obtain perfection. Also the male role in the family is to be the head of the family, while the female role is the that of the nurturer. While this doesn't mean the woman is less only that she has a different role. The are both equal partners in the family.

      August 30, 2010 at 5:41 pm |
    • gerald

      'Good job presenting the truth Fr. Want!

      August 30, 2010 at 10:42 pm |
    • Amrita

      Basically, Peter won the power game and Mary Magdalene lost. At least, the male hierarchy thought so. The Divine Feminine is returning and the world will have what it's always needed – the true spiritual marriage of Mother-Father God. Mary Magdalene was Jesus's favorite and the men couldn't stand it. The Gnostics honored women as priests and bishops. The male hierarchy wiped them out. Jesus stood for equality and was a man ahead of his time; the Jewish patriarchs were terrified of women, and the Catholic Church still is. As to old Ezra, if anyone wants the power it is the men. The women of G-d only want balance.

      August 31, 2010 at 12:31 am |
  18. Reality

    Beyond the question of the priesthood for women:

    The crises in the Catholic Church are many: the conduct of many ped-ophilic priests, the lack of talent in the priesthood, the lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement, the Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of stupid ideas like limbo, the denial of priesthood to 50% of our membership, the restriction of priesthood to supposedly celibate men and the continued train of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men.

    August 30, 2010 at 11:44 am |
    • Ktab

      I feel I need to clarify some off your statments. "The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of stupid ideas like limbo," was eliminated from Catholic teaching in the 60s.
      "The continued train of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men." – Most of the men entering the priesthood and is being "trained" for leadership is mostly comming from the Contenent of Africa; the country Nigeria specifically.

      " the conduct of many ped-ophilic priests" – not sure what this means. Pedophilics should not be allowed to become priests. I believe The Church should allow priests to marry and women should be allowed to become Deacons.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:19 pm |
    • Ezra F.

      As someone who is studying for the priesthood I would like to thank you for your analysis on the problems within the priesthood. I disagree with you 100% on your thought that there is no talent in the priesthood or that we are leaving 50% of our people out...if you did further studies along with this ad and had more faith in God and His Church as you probably do for the worldly stupid things...like POWER, because let's be honest, that's what some women are looking for.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:13 pm |
    • capon

      Ezra – When you finish your studies, please stay away from my area. I wouldn't want my granddaughter exposed to your obvious mysoginism.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:37 pm |
    • Evan

      Ezra, you really need to find a new vocation, unless of course you chose this one because you are so afraid of women and the priesthood enables you to hide behind your pretty cloak while feeling all rosy about how godly and gifted you are. In any case you’re a jack ass who should be shoveling dog crap and not working with human-beings or animals. Just crap.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:20 pm |
    • Diane

      @Ezra, since the Catholic Church is denying priesthood to women, that would mean it is denying about 50% of your members to become priests. You are obviously offended by this person's post, but seeing as how you are studying to be a priest, maybe you should not judge people so quickly (or not at all). I am especially appalled by your comment that some women are just looking for power. Sure, that may be true, but aren't some of the men in the priesthood also looking for power? Or the ability to manipulate the Catholic Church into giving them access to small children? All women are looking for is equal rights. I don't care if you are a priest, thinking that women deserve any less just makes you a bigot. Saying that you are a bigot probably means I am judgmental of you, but since you are a priest, you should probably should have taken the higher moral ground.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:24 pm |
    • Reality

      Limbo was not erased in the 60's.

      And update:

      Vatican revises limbo view, hope for unbaptized babies
      4/22/2007

      "VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Benedict XVI has reversed centuries of traditional Roman Catholic teaching on limbo, approving a Vatican report released Friday that says there were "serious" grounds to hope that children who die without being baptized can go to heaven.

      Theologians said the move was highly significant — both for what it says about Benedict's willingness to buck a long-standing tenet of Catholic belief and for what it means theologically about the Church's views on heaven, hell and original sin — the sin that the faithful believe all children are born with."

      B16, however, never came out and said there was/is no limbo. Why? Because if he did he would be admitting that their is no original sin, one of the major guilt trips put upon us by the RCC, an outdated religion based on the fear of hell, guilt trips, the sin of myths, limbo, and the false promises of sin atonement, "miracles", purification by water, "bloody" wafers, indulgences and the only key to the spirit state of Heaven.

      Had B16 done so, he would have also vitiated the immaculate conception and the need for baptism and started the needed ball moving for removing 2000 years of mumbo jumbo. This B16 was not willing to do since the his "divine" authority would also come into question.

      Bottom line: The actual wording leaves limbo still in limbo and B16 still in power.

      August 30, 2010 at 5:18 pm |
    • ajk68

      Original sin has not been done away with. If there were no original sin, we would not all necessarily need a Redeemer.
      Limbo was never part of official Catholic teaching. It was an opinion. It was opinion that arose in response to the harsher opinion that all unbaptized children go to hell. The current prevalent opinion is that we don't really know and it is possible the children go to heaven.
      The idea that women need to be priests generally stems from the idea that one needs to be a priest to be holy. This is an extremely mistaken notion. We need merely look at the lay saints to know it is possible to be holy without being a priest. Furthermore, the teaching of the calling of the laity to holiness was clearly laid out at Vatican II. It has also been taught by several saints. Notably it was taught by St. Josemaria Escriva, whom the Church recently canonized – giving further strength to the solidity of the teaching.
      Fr. Wang cannot be given short shrift here. He is reiterating an important point that part of acknowledging the wonder of sexuality is to acknowledge that each person has a specific gender that cannot be dissociated (from the whole person). To think of woman as equivalent to man is to do violence to the sexuality of both. (Equality does not imply equivalence – this is the mistake of radical feminism.) To say a woman can act "in persona Christi" would deny the sexuality of Jesus. It would make him inhuman. It would be a denial of the Incarnation. Jesus would be an human impostor.

      August 30, 2010 at 7:39 pm |
    • Ktab

      Ezra, Woman wanting to enter the priesthood is not a means to seeking power. Is that the reason you want to enter the priesthood?
      Woman have been the backbone to the church centuries. Think about your own parish. Who do you think the majority of your volunteers at your church are...women. Who do you think is the primary teacher in the family to up hold The Faith and keeping its traditions?....the women of the family. In the New Testament, Jesus surrounded himself with strong women and never advocated that any woman – whether she’s his mother or a prostitute – be treated as a second-class citizen.

      August 30, 2010 at 8:04 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Ezra F.

      Thank you for studying to be a priest. May God bless you along your way and keep you in His care. We pray for vocations at every Mass and I hope you realize how much you are loved and appreciated.
      It appears by this blog site that we need to pray for conversion of hearts, too, in this world.

      August 31, 2010 at 8:35 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Reality, the document you mentioned stressed that none of its findings should be taken as diminishing the need for parents to baptize infants.

      "Rather ... they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the church."

      August 31, 2010 at 7:20 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      Reality,
      The document you mentioned stres*sed that none of its findings should be taken as dim in ish ing the need for parents to baptize infants.

      August 31, 2010 at 7:26 pm |
    • ICEMAN

      Kate you are right BUT Men and Women have their places. This isn't not just a catholic teaching but many other denominations as well, also it comes from the bible. As for the babies it doesn't say that anywhere in the bible, "but maybe in some other books that have got left out but the whole lingo,bingo, crap is their own Man made doctrine. "that statement was for the BIBLE believers only..

      September 1, 2010 at 5:51 am |
    • ICEMAN

      @ CATHOLICMOM lol only Catholic's believe that their church is Yeshua's bride . Why noone wants to look at christanity before 325ad. the Catholic's cant see anything else but their church. They forget all of what their church had done and let me just say this Yeshua would've been disgraced by it.

      September 1, 2010 at 11:46 pm |
    • CatholicMom

      ICEMAN,

      What did you want me to read about?

      September 2, 2010 at 5:50 pm |
  19. Frogist

    "it shouldn't surprise us if we expect a man to stand 'in the person of Christ' as a priest, to represent Jesus in his humanity – a humanity that is not s-exually neutral.

    When did b-alls start to be equated with humanity? And then they dare to say that men and women are equal in christianity... hardly.

    August 30, 2010 at 11:44 am |
    • bob

      aghhh, how fundementaly stupid can one get!

      August 30, 2010 at 12:22 pm |
    • Frogist

      LOL@ David Johnson... you'd be surprised what we can do!

      August 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm |
    • MyNameisVI

      GOD is dual. So Man has Soul Mates-Women and a Woman has Soul Mates-Men.
      Maria Magdalena was “Jesus” one of his Soul Mates /and “Jesus” was one of Maria Magdalena Soul Mates.

      In GOD’s eyes, Man with Woman together as Soul Mates are the Alpha and Omega.

      A priest of GOD can be one individual as ‘Two-to-One’ which is created from an Alpha and Omega marriage (the child) or can be ‘Two-for-One’ which means a man Alpha and a women Omega together in priesthood for GOD.

      If a priest is not the child resulted from the marriage of an Alpha and Omega, this person has not the anointing of GOD to be His priest.

      Anything that is GOD Will – creates a perfect channel with GOD Word and Wisdom which brings with it abundance of positive energies, healings power, and fully anointing. Such priests release positive energies around them ‘like a river’ which has the power to heal and build man Soul. So is not the church or institution, it is the priest who make the difference.

      Anything that is GOD Will, not – it becomes the subject of COUSE and EFFECT Law with all the negative energies coming with it. The consequences for the individual, his church or his institution can be devastated. They must be replaced immediately with the positive ones.

      Peace

      August 30, 2010 at 1:26 pm |
    • Jackie

      Ha! Good question! And when did they ever start to be equated with Christ? I'm Catholic, BTW, and Catholic educated since Kindergarten. I have yet to meet another Catholic priest who would dare go so far as to say he was "standing in for Christ". Pretty big shoes to fill, and anyone who thinks he can do it has a pretty big head. This is fundamentally wrong. I wonder with what authority this priest made his statement?

      August 30, 2010 at 4:39 pm |
    • Ana

      DOES LEBRON JAMES TRY TO FILL THE ROLE OF MICHAEL JORDAN????
      AND THOSE PRIESTS SAY THEY ARE TO FILL IN JESUS'S ROLE "TO STAND IN HIS PLACE"?
      WOW...SPEECHLESS...ONE OF THE REASONS IM NO LONGER CHRISTIAN!

      August 30, 2010 at 7:28 pm |
    • Veronica

      If you don't want to be Catholic, don't be. It is as simple as that. In an age such as this one, it is important to be tolerant of others. It is intolerance that creates wars and hate – but then again, many of you commenting are looking for war and hate.

      August 30, 2010 at 8:42 pm |
    • gerald

      Ummm. Jesus had b-alls. That's the point. God chose the male image to send a savior to the world. Not a female image. THis has theological improtance as well. But theological importance does not matter to the protesters. They want their "rights".

      August 30, 2010 at 10:36 pm |
    • gerald

      It is an insult to women to try and make their roles the same as men. Are women less equal because they bare children? Not at all. In fact in some ways this is a greater role! These people's spiritual depth goes no further than what is between their legs and their own personal selfish desire for power.

      August 30, 2010 at 10:39 pm |
    • Curt

      Notice he said men and women are equal, not that men and women are the same. God designed different roles for men and women. To say that they have to not only be equal but also be the same is to put oneself in authority over God and tell him that he is wrong. Good luck with that.

      August 30, 2010 at 10:49 pm |
    • oneStarman - Walla Walla, WA

      ACTUALLY the concept of the Celibate Priest was created in the Middle ages to prevent Priests from passing on wealth the church had 'Acquired' to an heir – the church wanted it all. In the Early church – Paul praised women for their leadership in the Church – and after all Mary Madeline by virtue of being the first witness of the Resurrection was by the Early Churches definition the First Apostle. (Even if Peter did not like the Idea)

      August 30, 2010 at 11:46 pm |
    • GuoDu

      But, hey, if you believe that God created the universe and beyond by first turning the light on (before there was anything to be illuminated), you should be able believe in anything. Unlike insanity, you see, Freedom of Worship is to be respected by all, and tax deductible!

      August 31, 2010 at 6:15 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Gerald,
      Women do not take their role of being able to give life to another human being as their top piority. If they did, they wouldn't be having all these abortions, women wanting to lay with women, women wanting to be men, and women wanting to be priests.

      August 31, 2010 at 8:26 am |
    • Kay

      As a woman I agree with the Vatican on this. It is not wrong for women and men to have particular roles in life. This principle fits perfectly in religious life where a priest represents Christ Himself. Yes, God is not a particular gender, however, He chose for a reason to be born as a man on earth. For this reason, the Church respects that and continues to uphold that men fulfill the role of Christ. I think it is an issue of pride if women want to be priests. They can do so many other, equally important roles in the Church. One of the greatest vocations in the Church is a "spouse of Christ" which is a nun! Who wouldn't want that vocation! Or just being a mother and having children. God loves mothers very much. Mary is a woman and she is the greatest saint!

      August 31, 2010 at 9:07 am |
    • Frogist

      @gerald and kay : And so what was the theological purpose of God choosing a man as his son?

      August 31, 2010 at 11:20 am |
    • Frogist

      Also I posted this further down but I feel like repeating it here in response to the "different roles" issue:
      So men and women have different s-exual anatomy = man and women have different s-exual roles = men can be leaders, women cannot ... Sounds pretty s-exist to me.

      August 31, 2010 at 12:11 pm |
    • ICEMAN

      I know one thing if we only had one man on earth and the rest was women then blessed is that man but if it was a woman in a world full of men then WOE unto her. lol

      September 1, 2010 at 5:35 am |
    • CatholicMom

      Jesus Christ IS our high priest. In order to fulfill His priestly works He needs priests [men, who represent Him] to do His work here on earth. This is how He works through His Church, bringing us the Sacraments to help us on our journey here on earth. This is how He is still with us. This is how He is ‘in us and we are in Him’…we become the mystical body of Christ through Baptism with Him the Head. All the Sacraments bring us the necessary graces we need to fight the good fight against evil.

      Jesus Christ promised the Apostles that He would be with them by sending the Holy Spirit to guide and guard the Church so these Sacraments will always be with us and we will not be abandoned….He promised the Apostles this.
      I know there are those who condemn the Catholic Church and by doing so they condemn Jesus Christ’s Bride which is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

      If Jesus Christ had been the daughter of God perhaps all priests throughout the Bible would have been women. Then, would men be marching and claiming they want to be women priests?

      I love God’s plan as it is! And I’m thankful that there are men who uphold His plan and are saying ‘YES’ so that God’s plan is fulfilled.

      September 1, 2010 at 10:10 am |
    • Diane

      @Kay,
      So Jesus chose to be a man for a particular reason? Maybe it is because women have always been discriminated against and coming to Earth as a woman, people would never have listened? Maybe it was a 50/50 chance and nothing more than a coin toss. How can we possibly know what that reason is? I don't remember anything in the Bible about Jesus saying why he chose to come to Earth as a man instead of a woman. Why do you assume that it is because men are somehow more important and more qualified to run a church?

      Equally important, really??? There has never been a woman Pope, women cannot be Bishops or Priests. Men are allowed to be in leadership roles and women are only allowed in support roles. How can you call that equal? Why do they need separate roles? Why does it have to be male and female roles and not human roles? Separate is not equal. I think the Supreme Court proved that with the ruling on Brown vs the Board of Education. I do want to be a mother very much and have children, but that should not be my ONLY role in life when I have many other things to offer. How is wanting to be seen as an equal pride? I think those that want to keep others in inferior roles are protecting their own pride.

      September 1, 2010 at 4:22 pm |
    • Confused by Issue

      I don't understand why women can not perform the duties of a priest. Couldn't a woman use donated sperm to make holy water? For women young enough to have periods, couldn't they just take that week off? Doesn't that about cover all the issues?

      September 1, 2010 at 9:38 pm |
  20. derpagain

    Maybe they should just excommunicate ALL women from the Catholic Church – since they cannot follow Jesus-who-was-a-man!!

    August 30, 2010 at 11:35 am |
    • Matt A

      It is illogical to excommunicate all women as you do not have to be a priest to follow Christ. Merely, to follow Christ is to follow His teachings through His Church.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:10 pm |
      • ybs

        Actually, you just have to be sheep! That's all it'd take!

        August 30, 2010 at 10:17 pm |
      • ybs

        You just have to be sheep! That's all it'd take!

        August 30, 2010 at 10:20 pm |
    • Nina

      The bible says that all spiritual leadership is the responsibility of men – that goes for in the home (husband) and in the church. There are many other denominations that do not believe women should be the leader of a church, based on what the bible tells us, not because they are sexist. The Catholic Church just takes all of the heat.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:16 pm |
    • Swami

      Hilarious. All this fuss over a piece of fiction.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:23 pm |
    • chris

      Lets see if I understand this, an organization that protects it gay childmolesting members from justice, wants to exclude women from its ranks. Yet they are still stupid enough to wonder why people are loosing faith, and leaving the church.
      Why would anyone publicly admit to being part of, sleazy orgainaztion in the first place.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:36 pm |
    • Supply Train

      I don't post but often read them – with amusement. I am convinced that active posters are more or less miserable sods.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:37 pm |
      • Diane

        Since your so special, why even bother posting this comment at all? That makes you one of us miserable sods, doesn't it?

        August 31, 2010 at 2:38 pm |
        • Diane

          I replied to Supply Train, but my comment was posted as a new thread.

          August 31, 2010 at 2:41 pm |
    • john f.

      @ Chris. What difference does it make if the priests are gay or straight? They are molesting children and THAT alone is what's wrong. Don't go around associating gay people with child molesters. It makes you look really stupid.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:45 pm |
    • Hello

      All this hubbub about whether Jesus owned his clothes. I'm not sure who's nuttier, the Catholics or the Protestants. Either way, it's obvious that disallowing females in the priesthood (and the shielding of pedophiles for centuries) is slowly causing Roman Catholicism to go the way of the dodo. Now if we could just get all of the other religions to follow suit...

      August 30, 2010 at 12:47 pm |
    • LB Colorado

      Woman are the movers and shakers, man could not do it alone, so God gave Adam and helper and guess what the man did, not listen to God as God told him certain things to do and not do, Eve convinces Adam to eat of the tree. Adam being the "man" should have stood up and said NO. He did not do that so he lost his "main man" spot. The catholic church runs on woman power without the woman, the church would crumble anyways. Woman can be very powerful teachers – never under estimate the power that God gave the WOMAN.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:50 pm |
      • Timmo

        I wonder what it's like to overdose on estrogen...

        August 30, 2010 at 10:39 pm |
      • CatholicMom

        @LB Colorado

        You seem angry. Were you hurt by a man? Jesus would never do that to you. Seek Him today!

        August 31, 2010 at 11:35 am |
    • chris

      John f. Can you find one instance of a Catholic Priest molesting a child that was a girl? Do you have any other intellegent questions? In your response be specific, and provide link to a credible news source.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:50 pm |
      • Petel2

        Over 50% of members of the SNAPNETWORK, victims abused by clergy, are women. Huge organization too.
        ..
        Hope that helps

        August 31, 2010 at 10:11 am |
      • Diane

        There are lots of examples. While most of the victims seem to be boys, there are still female victims. I tried posting some links to news stories, but it was in moderator status. Just use google and you will find a ton. You can manage to use google, right? That's not too difficult for you? Whether or not you found any, it still would not mean that gay men are pedophiles.

        September 1, 2010 at 4:59 pm |
        • Diane

          The last comment I left was meant for Chris. I guess the reply isn't working again.

          September 1, 2010 at 5:01 pm |
    • Mathius

      "The group spent "in excess of 10,000 pounds" ($15,500) on the ads and is hoping donations will help make up at least part of that cost, Brown told CNN Friday."

      Money that could of been used to help the poor. Proves that these women care only for themselves and not for their faith, or belief in Christ. It's all about them. Thats real abuse there. Question is this: Would they live in rectories, submit to the authority of the Bishop, live a celibate life? The answer is no. It's all about them and them only.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:57 pm |
    • Mathius

      Chris, read the John Jay study and the German equivalent before you make more ignorant comments. You comments dropped the intelligence level to a pre-school level here.

      August 30, 2010 at 12:59 pm |
    • chris

      The John Jay report found that 81% of the victims were male. All of the priests are male.
      Wikipedia ; Homosexuality is romantic or sexual attraction or behavior among members of the same sex/gender.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:10 pm |
    • Jim H

      Mary Magdalene played a major role in the time of Christ's teaching on Earth and she could certainly be considered an apostle. She was summarily written out of the church at the Council of Nicea in 455 AD as the already male domintaed clergy wanted to keep it that way. Oh! and by the way she wasn't a prosititute. That lie was another of the chruch's ways to keep women down.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:17 pm |
    • Joan

      God is neither male nor female. As a reform Jew I believe, not in a messiah, but a Messianic Age. If God chose a leader of one gender that gender would be held in slightly higher esteem. We are all – male and female – God's children, and therefore responsible for making the world a better place.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm |
    • Jim

      This is one of the most foolish posts I have seen in a while. Typical for those who speak out of feeling only with no rational thought before speaking.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:25 pm |
    • anna

      Being a woman,I personally dont know why women feel that they have to be a part of everything!!!!

      I am Anglican and have stopped going to church because among other issues,I dont like women priests. I much prefer listening to a mans voice.

      August 30, 2010 at 1:33 pm |
      • CatholicMom

        WOW!! Can you be any more superficial?

        August 31, 2010 at 9:38 am |
        • CatholicMom

          Not me.

          August 31, 2010 at 10:01 am |
        • Faust

          Please read Abelard CatholicMom. Maybe you will find reason to employ your brain.

          August 31, 2010 at 10:28 am |
        • CatholicMom

          The Holy Church does not need your unholy books. Satan is everywhere. The Church knows that She is a perfect bride to the perfect man (with a penis) that we name Truth. The s-e-x is heavenly, or will be heavenly depending on what God has ordained for us as members of the church.
          Did they hurt you when you were a child?

          August 31, 2010 at 10:46 am |
        • JohnQuest

          What?

          August 31, 2010 at 11:04 am |
        • CatholicMom

          JohnQuest,
          please be aware of someone using my name to try to confuse people; if it is anti-Catholic, rude, filthy, and disgusting, it is the devil's companion at work......

          August 31, 2010 at 1:20 pm |
        • Prairie Home-deviI's Companion

          @CatholicMom

          I just clocked on. What's up? Oh, I see. ha ha ha! My sides ache from all the laughing I've been doing.

          I tell you this freely:
          I am not the only one in here raising you up in God's sight. You reap what you sow you sick abuser of helpless children.
          May you see the error of your ways. The errors are clear enough.

          August 31, 2010 at 1:53 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          I did not author any posts with the words "penis" or "touching" in them

          August 31, 2010 at 2:09 pm |
        • May

          @CatholicMom
          You said a bad word. I could hear it all the way over here. Repent, sister, and seek the Truth within your lowly heart.
          If you let them get to you then you are going to burn in the blackest pits of heII. There is no refuge for you that has not been defiIed by Satan. With lipstick on the mirror. While you were asleep. On his bed. You naughty girl.

          August 31, 2010 at 2:18 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          Oops, silly. I think I used those bad words again.

          August 31, 2010 at 3:54 pm |
        • CatholicGrandMom

          That’s right honey, don’t worry about what those mean people say about us. We know we are right. All we need to do is wash dishes, make babies and do what our men tell us to do. There is no reason to think beyond that. The good book tells us so.

          August 31, 2010 at 11:30 am |
        • CatholicMom

          Satan is here, I can feel him. Wait, he is touching me.

          August 31, 2010 at 1:33 pm |
        • NL

          Lots of alter boys have known that same touch, right?

          August 31, 2010 at 1:39 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          You might think it is funny, but it is not. I wish people would stop using my name here.
          Yes, Satan does touch me often. I fight it. Satan has the most powerful pee thingy, it is harder than you could imagine. To fight off. I am down on my knees. Praying that is.

          August 31, 2010 at 1:49 pm |
        • NL

          If Satan is everywhere, as you say, then he must be in these pedophile priests. And he must be in the bishops who chose to protect them over protecting children. So, if the Church is full of clergy under Satan's influence, wouldn't some of that stain rub off on her as well?

          August 31, 2010 at 1:49 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          NL,
          You know it is people who are the sinners. The Church is without stain, wrinkle or any such thing. We are at war against sin and without the Church we are without refuge.

          August 31, 2010 at 1:59 pm |
        • NL

          CatholicMom-
          Glad to see that you are yourself once again.
          I don't believe in sin anymore, but I do believe that it's people who choose for themselves to harm others. The Church is full of people who have made selfish choices and harmed children as a result. Any Church without stain, wrinkle or any such thing is just a poetic idea with no links whatsoever to the reality of the RCC.

          August 31, 2010 at 2:16 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          Yes, I'm back. I have been busy fighting off Satan. He is a hard man. To beat. I have to go to the rectory now and dress up as priest.

          August 31, 2010 at 2:48 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          NL,

          My replies do not post where they should but I will keep trying…. The Church isn’t FULL of clergy under Satan’s influence….there evidently are some and they will will be sought out and dealt with, but the stain of sin from the sinners who belong to the Church do not ‘rub off’ and stain the Church, rather, the Holiness of the Church brings us to humble ourselves, confess our sinfulness, and seek restoration of our souls.

          In the Old Testament the temple was cleansed of undesirables, 2Chron 29:16, as was the temple in the New Testament twice, and by Jesus Christ Himself, (2nd time) Matthew 21:12-13,
          Mark 11:15-17, Luke 19:45-48, (1st time) John 2:14-16.

          August 31, 2010 at 4:04 pm |
        • NL

          CatholicMom-
          I'm supposing that somebody else is still using your name here too, but this sound like a post of yours.

          There are enough clergy to give the RCC a justified stain. Sorry, that's just the way it is. The idyllic, unbesmirched "Bride of Jesus" you pine over is only an idea and not the same as the actual Roman Catholic Church that harbors and protects child molesters. Just another example of how religious ideas and concepts can be pure by definition, but corrupt in practice by us mere humans.

          August 31, 2010 at 4:24 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          NL,
          Stranger things have happened on here, I guess, but my answer to your comment about 'stain' was posted above where it should have posted. Sorry, for the confusion....

          August 31, 2010 at 6:03 pm |
        • CatholicMom

          Faust,
          Abelard's influence on his immediate successors was not very great, owing partly to his conflict with the ecclesiastical authorities, and partly to his personal defects, more especially his vanity and pride, which must have given the impression that he valued truth less than victory.
          I have checked out Abelard [briefly] and he is controversial.....

          August 31, 2010 at 1:16 pm |
        • The Jackdaw

          I'm glad to see you are aware of your philosophy. I admire Abelard for his emphasis on using intelligence and reason, and his argument that if humans are made in the image of God, then so are our minds, and we should therefore employ them. He was controversial during his day because free thinking threatened to undermine the church. I think, however, that in today's world, free thinking might be its salvation, as closed mindedness will simply turn people off. The church does not need to fear the age of enlightenment because we are past that. This is the information age, and nothing can stop that. If you try to swim against the tide you will be swept out to sea.

          September 1, 2010 at 10:16 am |
        • Patty

          We are only enlightened by Jesus and His teachings.

          September 1, 2010 at 9:42 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.

          Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it.

          A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion – any religion – is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason- but one cannot have both.

          September 2, 2010 at 2:08 pm |
      • SillyString

        Yes, that's what makes a good priest, his voice. Grow up.

        August 31, 2010 at 12:33 pm |
    • Smart Potato

      That's funny... and I agree. I mean, if these "holy men" want to go by these old standards, why just pick and choose the priesthood? I mean, I'm to be smited for eating seafood, etc. And the article does a poor defense: "Jesus chose 12 men..." well, duh. Women had no standing in society then. They do now. They really need to get over themselves.

      I'll bet if we replaced all these men with women, the child molestation would cease. Period.

      August 30, 2010 at 2:06 pm |
    • Common Sense

      arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgghhhhhhhhhhhh.....nonsense ! Just out on your pretty hat and go to church. If that's not good enough for you, change religion where they have women priests. Simple!

      August 30, 2010 at 2:08 pm |
    • Common Sense

      arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgghhhhhhhhhhhh.....nonsense ! Just put on your pretty hat and go to church. If that's not good enough for you, change religion where they have women priests. Simple!

      August 30, 2010 at 2:09 pm |
    • Mlawrence

      John the vast majority of pediphiles are not gay. They molest boys because they are easier to get to. In fact in most studies the percentage of pediphiles that are gay is below 1 %. Just because the pediphile molests a boy doesn't mean he is gay. This is simply another one of those hateful myths.

      August 30, 2010 at 2:10 pm |
    • mattifolks

      It's funny when cult leaders feel it's necessary to defend their rules in public. The Catholic Church is just like any private club or cult...the leaders make the rules, defend them with their interpretation of whatever published doctrine there is, and go on with whatever they wanted to do in the first place...

      August 30, 2010 at 2:11 pm |
    • Swampman

      The Bible says a priest must be the husband of one wife and that they should remain silent in church. End of story.

      August 30, 2010 at 2:17 pm |
    • Enlightened on Politics

      Jesus was a man. How convenient. Grab that role and corner market it into a power role for all eternity. It's a HUMANITARIAN role, not a MALE only role.

      August 30, 2010 at 2:17 pm |
    • kris

      to Chris: I'm not John F. but I found an article for you:
      Priest impregnates teen GIRL:
      http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=213984

      as you can see, a male molesting a female...not all pedophiles are gay.

      August 30, 2010 at 2:22 pm |
    • Jack Chambers

      You know what the problem is with women today? They strive to much to be like men, as if the man is the model to be followed. Which he is NOT!!!!

      August 30, 2010 at 2:22 pm |
      • ybs

        Actually today's problem is... "white" men try to hang on to their power sans qualifications! 🙂

        It's very understandable that being useless is not easy to take! 🙁

        August 30, 2010 at 10:23 pm |
    • Frogist

      @ Chris re: priest molesting girls. Yes, there are cases of priests molesting girls. You can google it and come up with links from all over. Here is a blurb from Catholic Culture.org
      http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=7362
      I think the reason that the male on male cases get more attention is the sensationalistic factor of it as it is more of a taboo.

      August 30, 2010 at 2:27 pm |
    • chris

      kris

      "as you can see, a male molesting a female...not all pedophiles are gay."

      Thank you for being specific, and supporting your statement. However, no one stated that all pedophile are gay. Another person wanted me to look a the John Jay report. The John Jay report found that 81% of the victims were male. The Catholic child molestors are 100% male. By definition the sexual attraction or behavior among members of the same sex/gender, is considered to be Homosexual, or in common words GAY. This doesn't say that all gays are pedophiles, or all pedophles are gay. However it appear that some priests in the catholic church, are engaged in pedophilic behaviour, and the majority of it can be classified as gay. God , Jesus (insert you higher power here) would be appalled, yet the infallible pope and his bishops believe its ok to cover this up. Yet this still wonder why people are leaving thier chuch.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:20 pm |
    • Satan Himself

      @Swami, be careful what you say or you will be turned into a pillar of salt. or your neighborhood will flood. or your city will erupt. or whatever scares you the most will happen.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:27 pm |
    • Pat

      They wouldn't have to excommunicate me. I left long ago when I discovered what greedy hypocrites they were/are.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:40 pm |
    • Beth

      We were all made in the image and likeness of God. There are three persons in one God...Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit.

      Thus women are made in the image and likeness of Jesus Christ.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:42 pm |
    • Jim

      This is so amusing. Why do we feel the need to base modern society on history books that are thousands and thousands of years old? BTW, the real reason that the Catholic Church doesn't allow priests to marry is inheritance. If there are no children, all the possessions, etc. come back to the church. Poverty, my @$$. Allowing women to be priests would mean that men would have to give up total control of the church. Not happening any time soon.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:50 pm |
    • Rachel

      Mathius, are you saying that no one should ever spend money to right what they consider an injustice? Strip away the religious significance that your argument holds to you, and think about that. If no one ever devoted resources to righting wrongs, we would still live in a world full of slavery; a world where women were property; a world where (white) landowners held power over everyone else; etc., etc. Yes, those women could have spent that money on something else; does it mean they were thinking of "only themselves"? No. You have no idea if these women even want to be ordained; you have no idea if they feel they are right for the ministry. All you know is that they are trying to right what they see as a wrong. I could say the same thing about you...you're sitting there reading news articles and posting when you could have spent that time volunteering for the needy - which clearly proves that you think only about yourself, and so your opinion should be discounted as selfish. Do I believe it? No. But the logic driving your dismissal of these people's viewpoint can easily be extended to yourself and your point of view.
      As to whether or not women would live a celibate lifestyle, obey thier senior churchman/woman, etc., you seem to forget that nuns have done this throughout Catholic history.
      I think the reason this is so hotly opposed by many Catholics is because they don't think about it...they just repeat what they are told. Any belief that is worth holding can stand up to scrutiny and honest inspection; you don't have to make excuses for it. If we only formed our beliefs by repeating what we're told, we'd still think that the earth was flat. If you believe in God, you have to believe that he gave you a brain for a reason...and not just as a sort of database of opinions other people tell you.

      August 30, 2010 at 3:55 pm |
    • Monica Flickj

      Sorry, I'm not buying it. Yes, Jesus choose 12 men, however, I seem to recall Mary Magdeline was among those as well and I am willing to bet she was also an apostile as well, though not necessarily by name unless the church changed scripture, which again would not surprise me. Especially now, with there not being more people wanting to become priest and in light of the sexual abuse scandals which has rocked the world over, I'm sure women could do a lot better than what the men could do!!!

      August 30, 2010 at 4:04 pm |
    • colum 1948

      God is woman .They at the top know that is why in this live they put woman down

      August 30, 2010 at 4:14 pm |
    • Marc W

      Ok, so I wasn't brought up Catholic (Universal? Ok, sure)but my wife was. How do Catholic's resolve the scritpure that states "I am the way, the truth and the light. No man come unto the father but by ME."??? If a priest is elevated to this position does it not detract from Jesus statements....and standing while here on Earth? I am not a believer at all at this point in life but, seems to me the problem is with understanding scripture as it was written and not "pouring definition here" when reading something and not fully understanding it...or having more sinister motives...like barring women from the clergy. As we all know, in the twelfth century, priests were no longer allowed to get married. This bastardized their chilldren and made their wives into immediate sinners because they were never officially married. All of this so the estates of the priest would escheat back tot he church? I am not even sure why we argue these dogmatic positions any more as a society. Religion did much to champion human rights in the beginning. Muslims were the first to allow women the power of inheritence which made them able to buy and sell and hold land. What has happened? Religion now seems to be an excuse to control. Control what? We have evolved. Time to leave fantasy to authors and children. IMHO!

      August 30, 2010 at 4:15 pm |
    • janet

      Hey Chris: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100824/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_church_abuse

      August 30, 2010 at 4:21 pm |
    • Dan

      "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God....Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." –The Family: A Proclamation to the World. Men and Women have unique roles, such as, woman have the ability to have children, while men cannot. Likewise, God ordains men with the priesthood in order to care for the poor and needy. Neither is "more important," but unique in purpose.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:21 pm |
    • Michelle

      @ Barry... LOL, I'm Catholic and I've never seen a priest with a house. They aren't allowed to live in a house. They must live in the rectory. And yes they have cars and can take vacations because they do get some spending money... like a few thousand per year. What's the poverty line in the US? Like $15k per year? They don't even get that. And this goes for the nuns, too. They have cars and they take trips. I'm tired of all this hatred and bigotry for Catholics. Learn to be tolerant. We have to learn to be tolerant of every sick, wierd idea out there, so YOU need to learn to be tolerant of US as well.

      August 30, 2010 at 4:25 pm |
      • Chuck W..

        Are you blind! What do you think a rectory is?

        August 31, 2010 at 2:01 pm |
    • Arius

      Women should accept their role in the Church. If you are part of the Church you must follow their teachings, no matter how out dated, and backward they are. This is the same church that tried hiding all the abuse of children, under the we didn't understand defence. The same church who protected Fr James Chesney. Come to think off it why would anyone want to be part of that vile church?

      August 30, 2010 at 5:25 pm |
    • Abudu Mukarram

      The big question here in the first place is what in the world did Jesus have to do with the Catholic Church anyway? Jesus never taught Christianity or the Catholicism version of Christianity, he never was a Christian or Catholic and wouldn't know of it if he was here today. His wasn't even Jesus. The whole idea of Christians adopting or kidnapping the man they call Jesus is absurd and a ploy to rob people to keep a bunch of queer men paid. They'll say no Jesus wasn't a Christian but, he put forth the foundation that Christians live by and follow, which is another lie because Jesus said not one letter of Moses' law would pass until the end of heaven and earth. I don't know about heaven but, the last time I checked earth was still here, which means the only faith he approved of was the faith he was in at that time.

      August 30, 2010 at 6:24 pm |
    • Chuck W..

      I am on your side Matt A. In this day and age I think it is absurd to think women cannot be excellent priest in the Roman Catholic church. In Jesus time (T) tradition did not allow women to do anything, especially in Middle Eastern cultures. Now, WHAT is their problem other than control? It really shows how narrow minded some (men) can be!

      August 30, 2010 at 6:25 pm |
    • Bobolink

      There was along time tradition that stated, " If Jesus is too busy to grant your innermost prayers, you should ask His Mother." Without the sacredness of the feminine, there might not have been a Jesus. Most other previous belief systems thought that the sacred was maternal, with the masculine in second place, One could witness a birth, but they could not prove something that was not visible. Anyone could give a name to a dynasty, while only the woman could be seen to give life. It is a shame that the male bully system won out, but, after all, swords and money give power. Jesus himself had a mother.

      August 30, 2010 at 6:46 pm |
    • DianeElizabeth

      Okay let's see if I got his correct: Jesus has a penis, women don't have penises, and therefore women's can't be priests!
      I LOVE IT!!!!!!!

      AND GOD IS LAUGHING!!!!!!

      August 30, 2010 at 6:53 pm |
      • Petel2

        he's laughing because he just figured out his name spelled backwards is dog

        August 30, 2010 at 11:05 pm |
        • ybs

          my dog looks at itself in the mirror and says, "Look, I'm god!" 🙂

          August 31, 2010 at 3:23 am |
        • fwat

          @ybs

          Is your dog facing the mirror when this happens?

          August 31, 2010 at 9:11 am |
    • Doug

      Do these churches like anyone at all ? With all the gay priests I can't understand some women in there !

      August 30, 2010 at 7:36 pm |
    • Hellscreamgold

      @LB Colorado: Man did fall because he followed after the one that fell first – Eve, a woman.

      Yes, he should have stood up and said no. And he also should have been there to protect Eve from the temptation. However, Eve made her own CHOICE first, which followed by another choice that Adam made.

      August 30, 2010 at 8:33 pm |
    • Phillip Uranus

      too much following and no one leading.

      August 30, 2010 at 8:53 pm |
    • ratonalfew

      Benedict set the church back 1000 years.

      August 30, 2010 at 8:59 pm |
      • Patty

        THIANK GOD!

        September 2, 2010 at 9:32 pm |
    • April McNeely

      Dear Catholic Church: It's amazing to me that in the 21st century you continue to alienate half of the world's population.

      August 30, 2010 at 9:05 pm |
    • Katie

      @chris, yes actually, many girls were raped and molested by priests. Mostly boys because only boys were allowed to be alter servers for quite some time, but girls were certainly victims, too. Seeing as pre-pubescent children are pretty androgynous, it's rather silly to try and gauge some sicko's orientation.

      August 30, 2010 at 9:21 pm |
    • MP26

      More reasons that the Catholic faith will be totally irrelevant within the next 20-25 years. Mark it down.

      August 30, 2010 at 10:05 pm |
      • CatholicMom

        So, are you, MP26, calling Jesus Christ a liar? He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guard and guide His Church until the end of time....He didn't say when the end would be here.....

        August 31, 2010 at 2:04 pm |
        • verify

          CatholicMom,

          It's more like labeling as liars the early Christian cultists (or their transcribers/translators/interpreters), who spread rumors of what this Jesus figure said.

          August 31, 2010 at 2:16 pm |
        • ttwp

          CatholicMom,
          It is evident that God's knowledge and truth is in you heart otherwise the antichrists on this blog would not attack you with such venom. God Bless...

          August 31, 2010 at 2:58 pm |
    • pete

      Fact: child molestation is performed less frequently by a priest as it is in the general public.
      Maybe some of you folks should look into your rabbi's and pastors in your areas of worship.

      August 30, 2010 at 10:07 pm |
      • Petel2

        Fact, The RCC lobbies to stop laws giving victims justice – they harm all victims no matter who abused them.
        -
        Fact; The poppppes and bishopps orchestarted cover ups to deny children needed help.
        -
        Fact in California and Md, where lawmakers preserved victims civil rights. Over 85% of all cases were against the RCC and less than 15% against the sum total of all other religions and organizations. Insurance paid the claims to ensure no organization was singled out.

        August 30, 2010 at 10:56 pm |
      • Petel2

        Fact; a higher percent of priest commit crimes of pedo than any other sector in society. The RCC syops laws that would give justice to victims and expose the pedos, to protect themselves.

        August 30, 2010 at 11:03 pm |
      • nachooooo libre

        maybe we should look at the 10,000 priests that have been caught already.... then compare them to the others.... no comparison.....

        August 31, 2010 at 10:52 am |
    • pete

      I love this post because everyone has the right answer!
      It's the same reason people outside of America hate Americans. Easy target. Or, as the Australians say, tall poppy's. You always want to cut down the tallest one so that they're at your level. Obviously, no one here has ever done anything wrong. Why do you care what the Catholics are doing? Why not bust on the Mormons for their polygamy? How about the baptists that "don't drink" but the night before church are boozing it up fornicating? How bout our Jewish friends who are creating a Palestinian holocaust?

      August 30, 2010 at 10:11 pm |
      • ybs

        Your reasoning sums up the sentiments here well... "all" religions are one big pile of dung surrounded by sheep that pontificate about its virtue or lack thereof! Most are still trying to justify having eaten it!

        August 30, 2010 at 10:26 pm |
      • ybs

        Pete, your reasoning sums up the sentiments here well... "all" religions are one big pile of dung surrounded by sheep that pontificate about its virtue or lack thereof! Most are still trying to justify having eaten it!

        August 30, 2010 at 10:27 pm |
        • Petel2

          That is what happens when you allow children around cults, the brainwashing sticks with them. Treat religion as porrrnnnnn and keep it away from kids or they end up as those here, holding society back. Religion causes a block in reasoning which is why many will not acknowledge the damage to children rrraaappped and sssooodoomizzzed. It allows the religious to battle against children victims, puring vinegar in their wounds. This is who the religious are.

          August 30, 2010 at 11:01 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.