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September 2nd, 2010
12:18 PM ET
God didn't create universe, Stephen Hawking arguesGod did not create the universe, world-famous physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book that aims to banish a divine creator from physics. Hawking says in his book "The Grand Design" that, given the existence of gravity, "the universe can and will create itself from nothing," according to an excerpt published Thursday in The Times of London. "Spontaneous creation is the reason why there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," he writes in the excerpt. "It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper [fuse] and set the universe going," he writes. His book - as the title suggests - is an attempt to answer "the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything," he writes, quoting Douglas Adams' cult science fiction romp, "The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy." He co-wrote the book with science writer Leonard Mlodinow. His answer is "M-theory," which, he says, posits 11 space-time dimensions, "vibrating strings, ... point particles, two-dimensional membranes, three-dimensional blobs and other objects that are more difficult to picture and occupy even more dimensions of space." He doesn't explain much of that in the excerpt, which is the introduction to the book. But he says he understands the feeling of the great English scientist SIr Isaac Newton that God did "create" and "conserve" order in the universe. It was the discovery of other solar systems outside our own, in 1992, that undercut a key idea of Newton's - that our world was so uniquely designed to be comfortable for human life that some divine creator must have been responsible. But, Hawking argues, if there are untold numbers of planets in the galaxy, it's less remarkable that there's one with conditions for human life. And, indeed, he argues, any form of intelligent life that evolves anywhere will automatically find that it lives somewhere suitable for it. From there he introduces the idea of multiple universes, saying that if there are many universes, one will have laws of physics like ours - and in such a universe, something not only can, but must, arise from nothing. Therefore, he concludes, there's no need for God to explain it. But some of Hawking's Cambridge colleagues said the physicist has missed the point. "The 'god' that Stephen Hawking is trying to debunk is not the creator God of the Abrahamic faiths who really is the ultimate explanation for why there is something rather than nothing," said Denis Alexander. "Hawking's god is a god-of-the-gaps used to plug present gaps in our scientific knowledge. "Science provides us with a wonderful narrative as to how [existence] may happen, but theology addresses the meaning of the narrative," said Alexander, director of The Faraday Institute for Science and Religion. And Fraser Watts, an Anglican priest and Cambridge expert in the history of science, said that it's not the existence of the universe that proves the existence of God. But, he said, "a creator God provides a reasonable and credible explanation of why there is a universe, and ... it is somewhat more likely that there is a God than that there is not. That view is not undermined by what Hawking has said." Hawking's book will be published on September 7 in the United States and September 9 in the United Kingdom. |
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A better view? The universe always was and always will be existing in a state of expansion and shrinkage sometimes referred to as the Big Bang followed by a Gib Gnab 20 billion years later followed by another Big Bang. And on and on!!!
Christian Economics To Date
The Baptizer drew crowds and charged for the "dunking". The historical Jesus saw a good thing and continued dunking and preaching the good word but added "healing" as an added charge to include free room and board. Sure was better than being a poor peasant but he got a bit too zealous and they nailed him to a tree. But still no greed there. (JB by the way apparently ate locusts and wild honey. Wild honey was a luxury in the first century CE so indeed JB needed funds)
Paul picked up the money scent on the road to Damascus. He added some letters and a prophecy of the imminent second coming for a fee for salvation and "Gentilized" the good word to the "big buck" world. i.e. Paul was the first media evangelist!!! And he and the other Apostles forgot to pay their Roman taxes and the legendary actions by the Romans made them martyrs for future greed. Paul was guilty of minor greed?
Along comes Constantine. He saw the growing rich Christian community and recognized a new tax base so he set them "free". Major greed on his part!!
The Holy Roman "Empirers"/Popes/Kings/Queens et al continued the money grab selling access to JC and heaven resulting in some of today's richest organizations on the globe i.e. the Christian churches (including the Mormon Church) and related aristocracies. Obvious greed!!!
And then we have the likes of Franklin Graham who gets $800,000/yr for preaching 2000 year-old mumbo jumbo. Hawking just wants a piece of the pie acting as a contrarian.
@Reality
Say it brother...
Peace....
One day you will give us something orginal that you wrote yourself. Until then do not expect folks to bow or change their views from a cut and paste of another's writing.
Mark,
Actually, the summary of Christian Economics101 is "original Reality" but reiterated numerous times on a number of blogs in an effort to conteract 2000 years of bible "thumping".
Mark,
Actually, the summary of Christian Economics101 is original Reality but reiterated numerous times on a number of blogs in an effort to counteract 2000 years of bible thu-mping.
And to think...that after all these years of admiring this poor soul...come to find he has none. By the way, any god too small to create the universe is too small to be God. By the (also) way, Admittedly there is one thing God did not create; that would be Evil.
@OldManEd
Your post....." By the way, any god too small to create the universe is too small to be God."
Sounds like you have a problem with size....
And your post...."By the (way) also, he (god) did not create evil"
What the F.....?
Peace....
@OldManEd
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7
Spin this how you like, but that's what the King James says and I believe it.
I am convinced I don't have a soul, which makes this life all the more precious. As for God creating everything but evil, suppose I was upset with the pharaoh of Egypt, but rather than taking it out on the pharaoh, I struck dead his innocent son and the innocent sons of every father in Egypt. I do this because I am so insecure that I have a murderous tantrum if I am not constantly worshiped, even by peasants who have no knowledge that I exist?
As a human being who knows evil when he sees it, I would refuse to worship such a God if I did believe he existed, regardless of the consequences. But I sleep peacefully, convinced the story was made up by dishonest priests who could earn a good living by scaring people into converting to their upstart religion. If it harms no one, let people believe. But there are reasons some of us view faith as nothing more than mental entrapment.
Hi, David...just something to think about..I am a Christian..I do have faith and I don't like how faith has become synonymous with blind faith. Everyone has faith, not everyone has blind faith. I have faith based on evidence that gravity will continue to work, and faith based on evidence that the theory of evolution is correct. But if that evidence is over turned then I won't believe anymore, because my faith is not blind. Therefore, I used Faith in believing the Bible to be Gods word...nothing has come up to prove, to me, that it isn't...until then I believe it...literally.
@alpha ott
And what *specific* proof do you have that the bible is god's word....?
Basing this on your comment to Dave about not having... 'blind faith'
Peace....
@alpha ott
I wouldn't be so certain that gravity will continue to work – or at least consistently. Check out Schrödinger's pure-affine theory
Just theorizin'
All the fundamentalists out there heard is that you have faith. The rest was bla, bla, bla to them. Better to not use that word. Just say you have confidence, like how you have confidence that Edward Cullen isn't secretly dating your daughter. It's less confusing to them.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth.
I wasn't there when the heaven and earth were created, but I do believe God created it. And I do believe the Bible was written by individuals who were real, not imaginary. I believe in the validity of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Sorta like, these people lived and walked with Jesus, they told two friends, etc., etc. Basic I know.
I'm not as articulate as those who have posted before me, nor as knowledgeable in science, physics, etc., however, I can appreciate his theory, I simply don't believe in it.
Does Einstein count?
@Stanly Kerns
Probably, it's kind of hard to come up with equations like E=MC2 otherwise
Just sayin'
@Stanley Kerns
Again, Einstein made it clear in his writings that he *did not* believe in God.... especially anything that would be described as the christian god of the bible.
Peace...
@kate
LOL...!!!!! 'Almost' missed that one.... very good...!
Peace...
@peace2all
Not so fast ... he was a deist, just not religious. Mostly because he couldn't come up with the math to disprove it (cosmological constant, anyone?)
But that being said, I think Einstein's concept of God is akin to Hawking's concept of space and M-theory superstrings and our trying to figure those out ... it wasn't quite the way anyone else would view it.
Just hypothesizin'
@peace2all
See what you might have missed leaving me and Frogist to languish in the Brady thread??
Just sulkin'
@kate
Yeah.... I have a quote somewhere from a book where he 'clears the slate' as they say about all of the speculation regarding he, and his beliefs. No where did I get any sense of him being a 'deist'.... but, .... regardless, as you can see from my previous posts from above, he did not believe in the 'god of the bible'...
We are in agreement that his beliefs were more like Hawking's...... but, Hawking's, as far as I know is not a 'deist'...?
Peace.....
@kate
Languish...? Who came over to the 'Brady' thread and got you and Frogist....? I saw you guys posting and said.... no... they are missing all of the fun... 🙂
Peace....
@peace2all
Professor Hawking isn't, no ... not exactly at any rate. The problem is that the math still has holes – one of the inside jokes behind LHC and the search for the Higgs Bosun being nicknamed the "God Particle". Theoretical physics has lots of holes that can only be explained by the math saying something *should* be there – but no way of knowing what it is, does, or even if it exists.
Sound familiar?
So any time you get involved with quantum physics, you end up with holes that tempt the non-physicist into using them as "aha!" moments.
Except when dealing with quantum physics, "aha!" moments always seem to end up like the results of the existence of the babel fish.
Just sayin'
@peace2all
Yeah, 250 comments later when you, David Johnson, and verify had already gotten all the best one liners in!
Just sayin'
@kate
I am with ya'..... Yes, the math has to fit the model... and they keep on adjusting the models to fit the math. At the quantum level it just gets a little bit to 'dicey' to try and create constants.....
As far as the fundies..... they need to plug religion.. i.e.. god of the bible and jc... into anything that is not explained by science. I started to talk about reality, but... @Reality would think I was a postin' about him/her... and he would start..... 🙂
Peace......
@kate
Yeah... I know.... David, verify and I jumped pretty quickly on this one.... We couldn't resist..... HOWEVER, I was the one who came over and brought you and Froggy over to this 'sand box' to play.... Hey where is Frogist anyway...?
Just sayin' 🙂
Peace
@peace2all
Probably gibbering in a corner with verify from a post I made earlier elsewhere 🙂
I already gave reality a dose of himself earlier ... dayum, but that sentence works out so nicely 🙂
Just gloatin'
@kate
Very nice..... I don't want to have to be searchin' for our comrades that you are 'roasting' with your 'postings'..... Oh, my, actually *did not* mean for it to come out that way....
Oh well....
Peace.....
@peace2all & Kate: I'm here... finally... had to take some time for the whole work thing. Besides I'm outgunned in the physics debates. I gotta leave all the heavy lifting to you guys!
@Frogist
OK, so riddle me this: const|tution is a banned word, but work isn't??
Just sayin'
@Kate: Unfortunately even David Johnson and his kitten sacrifices can't make all the really dirty four letter words disappear.
@Frogist
I am so getting revenge on him for the kitten sacrifice with the mental image I hope he shudders from that I put on my blog ... the answer involved another 4 letter word that I'm sure CNN does filter.
As the old Klingon proverb goes – vengeance is a dish best served cold – with a side order of fries.
Oh! Side note that might amuse you: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/27/AR2010082702649.html
Just chucklin'
Thanks for the link! That would be an interesting evening to go to. I can understand Hamlet but it makes you wonder what Romeo and Juliet would sound like.
@Frogist
I so didn't need to imagine that! I think it's time for bed after all 😛
(Told you I had a better comments system than CNN, BTW :))
Just snorin'
Good Grief...all this bickering over whether there is a GOD or not because a brilliant scientist came to his own conclusion that GOD did not create the universe?....
There are brilliant scientists who believe HE did...
So, my point is this, it's your belief....your choice. what you do with the information you hear, see or read. With anything in this world the information can be distorted, made to look ridiculous or most truthful because of how the individual chooses. I just think that when you point fingers at anyone or belief and say it is their belief that causes all the ILL"S of this world, and you are attacking or becoming angry because they believe opposite of what you do, you are no different than what you are accusing the "OTHER GUY" of doing....
Standing for what you believe is one thing, but attacking another is something else...and all because you don't agree....
Come on people....stand for what you believe, but stop attacking....LIVE what you believe...that's whats important if what you believe is worth believing!!!!
There are brilliant scientists who believe HE did...
WHO?
Einstein
Aristotle
@alpha ott
Actually, Einstein.... emphatically *denied* and made it very clear that he *did not* believe in a God. Aristotle, was a "Philosopher' of long ago.....
Peace.....
@peace2all
Great, now I have the Philosopher's Drinking Song playing in my head!!
Just boogiein'
@Lauri
I was commenting to @alpha ott as well.... but I saw that you made the actual references to ...Einstein and Aristotle.
Einstein made it very clear in his writings that he *did not* believe in... a God, especially, anything near the god as described in the bible or the christian god.
Aristotle was an ancient philosopher and is a bit vague about his *beliefs*.....And Aristotle existed well before the bible was compiled.
Peace....
@kate
Sorry kate.... for the brain stain song....
just sayin' 🙂
Peace....
@peace2all
*mutters* next time gonna send jehovah's witnesses round to you, oh yes!
Just plottin'
I want you to think about a can of Morton's Salt–you know, round–about 7" tall–they contain about a million grains of salt–imagine each grain to be a star. Now think about a box car–full of such cans, that is about how many stars we have in our galaxy. Again think of the box car full of cans, now each grain a galaxy–that is about how many galaxy's in the universe. Now think of yourself–actually pretty neat. With in the life time of people now living the Universal Theory guys should finally get the fundamental nature of the universe worked out. To understand is the first step in control. My point is if one of those grains came up with you–imagine what could have happened elsewhere. So–if God did not create the universe, with you as my example of what, for sure, the universe working alone can come up with–it, then, is completely reasonable that the universe created God. Either way you live in a universe with a God in it.
When Morton's Salt was first sold in India, nobody would buy it. It turned out that because the people were illiterate, they put the images of what products were made of on the labels. Naturally, the people thought that Morton's Salt was made of little girls, and the company had to change the label. Ignorance doesn't get you very far.
@Stanley Kerns
Your last statement......"Either way you live in a universe with a god in it"
Your whole posting that leads to your last conclusion is based on a faulty and non-comparable analogy and string of logic.
And you know that we.....'live in a universe with (a god in it).....How *exactly*.....? Proof please....
Peace.....
Mike, I do see God and I am aware that there is pain, suffering and all sorts of evil in the world. That doesn't change who He is (our circumstances don't change the fact that God is God). He is Holy. He is Sovereign.
Exodus 4:11 ~ The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD ?
One key point must be made here I think, this is a theory being presented by Prof. Hawking. He is not stating that this is definitively the way the Universe came into being, but instead one way it could have come into being. I don't think we will ever truly know the answer to how the universe was created, at least not while here on earth, because none of us were there and we can't recreate it. Until then we are all left with theorizing whether it be using science or religion.
As for me, I know religion can be a hot spot for many people and I will not claim to have all the answers, but I do believe God exists and that he loves each and every single one of us
@Kelly
You stated...."I don't think we will ever truly know the answer to how the universe was created, at least not (while here on earth)"
Your statement is inferring already a bias that (you/we) will be somewhere else....'heaven/hell'..?
Also..... "Until then we are (all) left with theorizing whether it be using science or religion." There is no way to *prove* anything using religion. In science we continually create theories that can be tested and re-tested and adjusted to confirm reality.
Religion cannot and does not provide *any* means whatsoever, so please do not put science and religion at the same logical level.
The fact that you later confirm...."but I do believe God exists and that he loves each and every single one of us."
Your statement at the end confirms, your bias throughout and your personal *belief* in something like a god and (HE), for that matter loves everyone of us is pure reiteration of christian hope.
However, Peace to you......
Those that try to explain away the importance of God and discredit the Bible have no clue of true Christianity and probably never read the entire bible. What's funny is that it takes more faith to believe these ideological explanations than it does the word of God. Christianity is based on faith, but faith comes from hearing the word of God. If you never hear, read and exercise faith in the word of God you will never see the evidence that "USN Atheist" is looking for. Please don't bash Christianity if you've never sincerely spent time understanding it or approaching it with an open heart. Everyone’s faith or lack of faith determines their level of understanding of God, His plan, His purpose and His will. With that I challenge the atheist community to read and try to understand God daily with a sincere, doubtless open heart and full commitment and see if they don't witness a change and see the "evidence" that they've asked for. Besides if the bible is just fluff, what do you have to lose? If you can spend your time reading about guys like Stephen, you must have time available to read the bible.
Personally, I have read the bible and many books regarding religious subjects and spoken to and am good friends with many who believe in God. I find with Christianity, and with any religion, including Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, that there are common and profound threads. Namely, I believe that the purpose of all religion is to perfect the life you live and to strive to create Heaven on Earth through discipline and empathy towards others. After studying for a very long time, however, I have come to the conclusion that while religion offers profound wisdom and insight, it is simply the wisdom and insight of mankind, and is fallible as such. That is why so much atrocity has come to be in the name of religions. I think it is important to understand religions and all faiths, but not to exclude logic and pragmatism, as without these things, we are lead to extremism.
@Michael
You said, "Those that try to explain away the importance of God and discredit the Bible have no clue of true Christianity and probably never read the entire bible."
Have to!
You said, "Christianity is based on faith, but faith comes from hearing the word of God. If you never hear, read and exercise faith in the word of God you will never see the evidence that "USN Atheist" is looking for."
Let's see Faith is belief that is not based on proof
In other words, if I have faith and stop thinking, I will see the evidence? Hmm... by not requiring evidence for my belief, I will see the evidence. Yes! I see it now.
You said, "Everyone’s faith or lack of faith determines their level of understanding of God, His plan, His purpose and His will."
So the less I use my intellect, the higher my level of understanding of god, will be. Right? I should just believe and not think about what I am believing, and then I will understand god's plan and purpose and will. Okay. Got it.
You said, "If you can spend your time reading about guys like Stephen, you must have time available to read the bible"
Yeah, but the bible is fiction. I don't read a lot of fiction. It just seems so time wasting. I never did get through Harry Potter...
If the only way you can believe in a thing, is to suspend your critical thinking then why would you do it?
@Micheal
I think @David Johnson ....Hmmmmm slayed ya' on that one....
Good try though....
Peace....
Jack,
"I believe that the purpose of all religion is to perfect the life you live"
Actually Christianity has nothing to do with that, quite the opposite, we can not live a perfect life and keep the law, all Christians and human's are hypocrates for this and deserve death under treason against God and His creation. But alas we have a Savior who died in our place and we took on His right standing before God. This is Christianity.
Dave faith does not equal intelligence. Faith is the substance of things hope for the evidence of things not seen. Like you had faith to sit in the chair you sat down in that it would not break. Faith that you will have tomorrow. Faith that gets you on the highway to drive without worrying about death. Everyone has faith and everyone is "brainwash". The only question is what do you have faith in?
@Mike
So..... I have *sensory based evidence* concerning the 'chair' reference..... What are you saying exactly....?
Peace....
@Mike, if you are suggesting that Christianity does not encourage you to live a better life, you are missing a few of their basic themes.
Take a look at a blood filled tick?
How about a tumor on a child's brain?
A 3 foot tapeworm?
A house that collapsed in an earthquake, killing an entire family?
What about a god who created creatures that survive by killing and eating other animals?
Can you see god in the nasty things?
Yes, yes I can it is all drawing us nearer to Him to rely on Him and not attaching myself to the things of this world.
youtube.com/watch?v=D4UeBJ4rdxQ
fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/01/matt-chandler-sharing-his-journey.html
adrianwarnock.com/2009/12/matt-chandler-on-being-a-pastor/
acts29network.org/acts-29-blog/acts-29-pastor-suffers-well-with-cancer/
God doesn't exist. bye.
@Mike
What are you talking about...? Nothing you stated *proves* an existence of something that doesn't exist. i.e... god.
However, I do agree with the Buddhist intentions of a bit less 'attachment' to things. I get that on a personal level, but has nothing to do with proving a god exists.
Peace....
Peace hopefully in it's context it will make sense see same post above. The first post was moder-ated the second one I forgot to rehit the reply button.
@Mike
Couldn't quite catch the post you are referencing above...? If somehow, your posting is out of context.... understood.
As it stands, though.... you can see where I, and a lot of others would take issue with it...?
Peace.....
God, as we know him, makes it perfectly clear that YOU are to take dominion–maybe at this time a bit beyond our knowledge–but not so far. Everything you list simply boils down to "Failed to take dominion". The universe really is yours–taking dominion really is YOUR job. Do it and all those things you list will go away–like polio and smallpox for example. When they said you were created in God's image it didn't mean you were good looking. Were you to discover the answer to any of your listed problems no angel with a flaming sword would appear to prevent you from acting on your knowledge. God made you to grow up.
Job 38 ~ The LORD Speaks
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [d] shouted for joy?
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?
12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [e] ?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 "Can you bind the beautiful [f] Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons [g]
or lead out the Bear [h] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's [i] dominion over the earth?
34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?
36 Who endowed the heart [j] with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind [k] ?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
LOL – what?
Your circular logic has proven the existence of God…..NOT
@Melissa
What the F ??????
@Melissa
I think wha Melissa is trying to say, is: "I have software that generates scripture and I am not afraid to use it, in the Lords work."
Reading this article and then reading these comments, only confirms God’s existence for me. Those of us who believe God (Jesus) and have personal relationship with Him know that these things are going to happen as the end gets closer. The following scriptures came to mind….
Jeremiah 5:21-22
21 Hear this, you foolish and senseless people,
who have eyes but do not see,
who have ears but do not hear:
22 Should you not fear me?" declares the LORD.
"Should you not tremble in my presence?
I made the sand a boundary for the sea,
an everlasting barrier it cannot cross.
The waves may roll, but they cannot prevail;
they may roar, but they cannot cross it.
Romans 1:18-32
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
God is REAL and His word is TRUTH! He reveals Himself to those who seek Him.
Jeremiah 29:13 ~ You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Who or what created gravity? According to the professor gravity must exist before something can be made from nothing.
Gravity wasn't created. In order to start understsanding advanced physics, you need to stop thinking like this. There is no creation. That is not how things work at this level. TVs and computeres are built. A universe is not.
i think the best way to think about it is to think about math. When was the idea of adding created? or when did 1+ 1 first equal 2? what was it before that? Thinking about it like that helps me to realize that those concepts always existed, before man discovered it and even before there was anything in the universe to add together. so if there exists a concept that is infinite, then at least that opens the door that maybe other things are infinite too. i admit thats hard for me to imagine matter or force forever, but gravity could. if its just the shape of space time then it seems like it could exist forever. its more of a framework for the universe than the substance of it. maybe, just an opinion
As far as i know, i have never seen anything to prove that there is no God. I'm also aware that there is no tangible evidence that there is a God. But this article (i say article because i haven't read this book) does not prove anything either way. He says God is unecessary because nothing can create nothing in our current state or universe or whatever. But to believers, God is not of this state of being, or universe. He is outside of our capacity of thought.
Being outside the capacity of thought is actually being on the right track, but does not act as evidence. The best way to wrap your mind around this idea is like this: The creation of a TV, watch, phone or rock is not the same thing as the creation of a universe. They are not comparable events. Some of what Mr. Hawking argues goes back to Einstein's famous formula E=MC^2, a surprisingly basic equation. If we have mass and move it at the speed of light squarred, we get its energy. But you know how basic algebra works – we can work backwards. If we have energy and divided by the speed of light squared, we get mass. When we get mass, we get gravity. And when we get gravity, we get a universe. Clearly, it is much more complex that what I am postulated, but this is the gist of it.
Luke,
In that example, can we have gravity without mass? Out of our capacity of thought is not meant to be evidence, (i hate this saying) it is what it is. Like i said i have no tangible evidence to support the existance of God. That doesn't mean there isn't one, epsecially when there is no evidence to to say there is no God.
pete – There lies the problem. It is not my job to prove a negative. In fact, that's impossible. We have no evidence for any sort of god or gods as pertaining to the history of mankind, certainly not the god of the abrahamic religions. We can simply reject the idea of the supernatural and anything that defies the natural order of things. In looking for the answers of where it all began, we must continue down the path of physics and mathematics, and stop seeking the one all and be all end result of "a god did it."
Luke,
do the two have to be exclusive of each other. Can you look to science and math to help solve the questions of the universe, yet still believe in the one Creator? I think so.
@Pete
When you determine the how of something, A rule of thumb called Occam's Razor states ""entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".
What this rule means is, if you have two or more explanations for a thing, pick the one that is the most simple. It is probably the correct answer.
God is extremely complex. So adding him to an explanation would not be correct. So, if the creation of the universe could be hypothesised without incorporating god, this would be preferred.
@Pete
When you determine the how of something, A rule of thumb called Occam's Razor works pretty well.
What this rule states, if you have two or more explanations for a thing, pick the one that is the most simple. It is probably the correct answer.
God is extremely, if not infinitely, complex. So adding him to an explanation would not be correct. So, if the creation of the universe could be hypothesised without incorporating god, this would be preferred.
Luke will probably see this and add to it. He is better at science than I. Cheers!
David,
I know Occam's Razor (it was in a Jodi Foster movie,hehe) but it doesn't always apply, right?
I do enjoy discussion. You believe what you believe, i believe what i believe, there is no reason for it to get nasty. I wish there were more people on both sides who would just debate/disucss without being nasty. Thanks David!
@pete
I am fairly "certain" that energy can warp space-time, creating "gravity", so I would say that "gravity" without mass is definitely possible.
You know, I had a few of his books, and was often disappointed that they seemed to be too simplistic and geared towards high-school level students instead of really grinding away at all the concepts involved in cosmology.
But he's got the math and I don't, so he writes the books and I comment on them – and use rambling attempts at teaching basic physics – to people in a blog of all places!
Vanity, thy name is troll.
@Pete: I agree with you! Science and faith are two separate things that focus on two different human needs. And while science can give us the empirical evidence to know our world better, faith can give us a sense of comfort – something to believe in. I don't ascribe to any particular religion, but I can understand the need for faith in something mystical and bigger than we are. Yes, I know we can also have faith in proofs and logic, but for some of us that's not enough. That doesn't mean however that those who believe in god/creator can ignore science or denigrate it's findings.
Luke did see this, but he is on vacation and just doesn't care right now. As usual, however; you are totally on the right track David.
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reasonableMe
All hes saying is it is not necessary to have something(god) outside of the universe to light the fuse. Nothing is what bible-thumpers are afraid of , nothing is what we came from and nothing is what we return to. Religion helps people who haven't yet found there purpose in life by giving them a temporary imaginary meaning.
After awhile you will grow out of this to find your true creative purpose in life and define your own morals, you will be happier because your a good person because you want to be not because you have to be. Your past-faith in ancient text at this point will seem ludicrous and you will know YOUR Truth and YOUR truth will set YOU free – if you have any concern at all about OTHER Peoples views and faith then your not there yet.
If you have to keep convincing yourself and others that somethings true, then maybe it' not
The Jackdaw! Thank you for enlightening me that he is not a medical doctor. DUH
You seem to have missed the whole point of my comment and proved that you are a moron too like him.
I'm a moron, just like Steven Hawking. Your words sting…..ouch. I'd be honored to be as dumb as Steven Hawking. I think the moron needs no pointing out in this instance.
Yeah he is a real moron ... the wheelchair jab was classy too.
Poor hawking, paid to think and do research, all those accolades, books and scientists the
whole world hanging off every word.
Hey hows "The Universe Accourding to Farooq" coming along? Hawkings has changed the world Farooq ... what did you do?
LOL !
Just t5ake a good look around you the next time you walk outside your house.
Take a look at a travel program or a program on animals, plants, mountains,the oceans.
You don't think someoine created this diversity?
This was just spontaneous creation?
Something out of nothing?
The Brooklyn Bridge is again "up for sale"
Beauty, grandeur and complexity are not evidence for the divine. They are evidence for beauty, grandeur and complexity. There is nothing that cannot be explained by science and reason. If you disagree, you are simply not reasonable.
@W.W.W.
You said, "Just t5ake a good look around you the next time you walk outside your house.
Take a look at a travel program or a program on animals, plants, mountains,the oceans.
You don't think someoine created this diversity?
This was just spontaneous creation?"
Take a look at a blood filled tick. How about a tumor on a child's brain? A 3 foot tapeworm? A house that collapsed in an earthquake, killing an entire family? What about a god who created creatures that survive by killing and eating other animals?
Can you see god in the nasty things?
Instead, consider that evolution is the giver of diversity on his planet. Could not be evolution? Well, where did all those transitional fossils come from?
Take a look at a blood filled tick?
How about a tumor on a child's brain?
A 3 foot tapeworm?
A house that collapsed in an earthquake, killing an entire family?
What about a god who created creatures that survive by killing and eating other animals?
Can you see god in the nasty things?
Yes, yes I can it is all drawing us nearer to Him to rely on Him and not attaching myself to the things of this world.
youtube.com/watch?v=D4UeBJ4rdxQ
fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/01/matt-chandler-sharing-his-journey.html
adrianwarnock.com/2009/12/matt-chandler-on-being-a-pastor/
acts29network.org/acts-29-blog/acts-29-pastor-suffers-well-with-cancer/
...
The Jackdaw: "There is nothing that cannot be explained by science and reason."
That is a very extreme position to take and I'm sure most atheists would not agree with you.
1. Logic – the laws of logic are assumed and cannot be proven (without, of course, using logic)
2. Science – specifically the scientific method is assumed (to try to prove it using the scientific method would be circular reasoning)
3.Numbers – the concept of numbers and mathematics cannot be proven using science
4. Metaphysical truths – Such as the concept of time, the idea of a "self," the belief that our past's were real and we were not created 5 minutes ago with implanted memories.
Please do not place "Science and reasoning" as the origins of all knowledge, but consider the assumptions that science has to make everyday to operate.
@BobRoss
That's the sound of a nail being hit on the head, I think. Assuming there's a nail, of course....
Hawking says in his book "The Grand Design" that, given the existence of gravity, "the universe can and will create itself from nothing," according to an excerpt published Thursday in The Times of London.
Then we have to assume gravity (one of the 4 fundamental forces in the universe) existed before the universe.
He is saying that rather than believe a Prime Mover existed before the universe, we can believe gravity existed before the universe.
Compare to the statement given that an orange existed before the universe then it is sufficient to create a universe. So the flaw is an orange requires gravity to exist.
So he is saying gravity is a fundmentalness or _the_ fundamental thing required to exist before anything else. So were does gravity come from?
In the beginning was the singularity. The singularity contained/was all the mass of the universe, all condensed. What was holding the singularity together? Gravity?
What made all the material that made up the singularity? No one knows. But that doesn't mean god made it. There are lots of theories. Once the big bang occurred, gravity and inertia were the only tools needed to form our universe. No god required.
Where did life come from? No one knows. But that doesn't mean got created it. Lots of theories. Once that first spark of life occurred, evolution gave us the diversity of life we have on this planet. Again, no god required.
I have not read the new stuff Prof.Hawking has put out, but I definitely have some doubts that he could postulate "gravity" as being in existence before the "Big Bang".
From what I have read so far, curved space-time is still under investigation, so for Professor Hawking to say, in essence, that "the butler did it" is putting the cart squarely before the horse.
We don't even have a GUT (Grand Unified Theory) yet. The research being done around the world is absolutely mind-boggling stuff, but solutions that include "gravity" and how it is produced by mass and energy – are still in the future.
I hate to be such a killjoy, but physics is a multi-level, multi-disciplinary field – especially if you are studying cosmology.
The Big Bang is almost a fairly solid theory, but, like I have said many times before in this thread, the lack of a GUT that includes the phenomenon we call "gravity" makes the Big Bang theory that much more uncertain.
@David Johnson
"God" is not yet required to explain anything in physics or medicine because no religious person is willing to put their version of "God" to any viable test. That is not to say that something might be found that raises eyebrows, but if "God" can be ruled out, then that's it for "God" in that particular argument or hypothesis or theory.
To rule "God" in would take a bit more, I think, than it would take to rule "God" out.
Yer on shaky dam ground there if you aren't qualified to explain physics. amirite?
If I flung a Satanist at you, how would you defend yourself? 😛
@Fast Eddie
Throw Reality at them and watch them implode in mutual ebilness collision?
Just dreamin'
@Kate
Throw Reality? I'm too ignorant for that sort of heavy lifting, not to mention the likely difficulties in aiming and flinging.
Satanists are light-weights. They should be real easy to fling.
The only problem is in targeting that dodgy fellow. You know, the ex-member of Toastmasters ? LOL
(just kidding DJ, don't sacrifice me to the moderator gods! No.....iieeee! )
YOUR COMMENT IS AWAITING MODERATION
@Fast Eddie
So basically what you're saying is Reality shares a similarity with black holes.
Hmmm.
I can go with that!
Just collapsin'
Fast Eddie
You said, "I have not read the new stuff Prof.Hawking has put out, but I definitely have some doubts that he could postulate "gravity" as being in existence before the "Big Bang"."
I know, I thought of that to. Before the Big Bang, not even time existed. But if you consider the Big Crunch, gravity is what retrieved all the material back into the singularity. ?
@David Johnson
But that walks right back into the information paradox I think
@David Johnson
Ow. Well...I don't like considering a Big Crunch because that would be secondary to examining and questioning the "now".
First things first? Then once we've defined the "now", the possibility of different functions, like cycles, could be properly addressed. IMHO
"You can't put little pillows on the knees of the Universe" – Fast Eddie