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September 16th, 2010
04:33 PM ET
North Carolina city officials vote to take down Christian flagFrom CNN affiliate WGHP: A Christian flag flying at the Veterans Memorial at Central Park in King, North Carolina has been removed following a city council vote on Wednesday. According to city officials, the City Council voted 3-to-1 to remove the flag, with councilman Wesley Carter being the only vote against removing the flag.
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I live in king, NC, i am not a christian, and i am a veteran of the United States Marine Corps.
there is nothing wrong with this flag being flown over a veteran's memorial in which most of the men that this monument is there for were in fact christian.
the flag is not being flown in a courtroom nor state house of any kind, it is being flown at a veterans memorial.
if the fact that our most of our nations veterans are christian offends you, then i apologize.
the flag is not being flown in any way that it should offend any one. there are 10 other flags flying around it with the National flag flying in the middle.
It is very common for veteran memorials to have christian flags as it is for veterans graves to have christian crosses.
for those who have never seen the memorial:
http://www.ci.king.nc.us/vertical/Sites/%7BF66D84C7-020F-42FF-9AB2-093062E31F9B%7D/uploads/%7B4C680026-5318-4B88-868A-F97D4E399836%7D.JPG
this memorial isn't for the people who are alive, it is for the veterans who died.
@NL
I know where your going with that one,lol. However, I lived right next door to a Black family. They had a large family, and 3 of the boys were close friends of mine. We all got along well. There were others around too, and basically, I never remember anybody making issue with color. We would build skate boxes out of old orange crates, put ball bearing wheels on them, decorate with bottle caps from the local store. Had some great races on that hill around the corner. Nobody has to even lock thier doors at night. Like I said, I guess I was very fortunate to live in a area where it was pretty peaceful.
I can't decide which of the regular characters Andy would have to give 'the talk' to on this. Maybe all of them. In some ways the Tea Party masses make me think of what Mayberry would have become without Andy to keep them in line. Boy, could that bunch ever use some of his down-home wisdom these days.
Reading about your memories I'm assuming you're white, right? Point is, the black boys you played with may not have as idyllic a recollection of those days as you have. You might want to look them up, and get them to open up about how they saw the past. You might find it surprising.
@Critter
LOL, Sorry! I usually do start with @ or you say:
I guess I can say "the devil made me do it! Lol, j/k.
@Critter
I guess to simplify the flag thing, I am just saying that I see not the reason to have to go to the extent to remove something thats been there all of the time that it has, specifically for the very reasons you further state in your commentary. More on, I agree with you you 100% that we have a mess. You say,
But I agree that there are too many infringements upon ourrights. The problem as I see it, is that many of these are done by people who are deliberately ignoring the laws that protect our freedoms.
But many laws need to be revoked or reworked. Loopholes need to be closed and every law on the books should be evaluated with an eye to their actual constltutionality by, I guess, the Supreme Court or somebody.
I couldn't agree more. Mayby this would help fix things, once and for all.
@John
Wow, that actually hurt my eyes. Could you please put MY words in quotation marks when you quote me? It would really help make your post much clearer and easier to read.
Thanks. The "devil is in the details" today, I guess...
@CatholicMom
Amen..to God be the Glory!
@Iceman
Yes, it was in America. I live in Md. I know what you mean about other races, but we had mixed races in the neighborhood. Mayby I was blessed to be in one that those people were happy to be accepted by his neighbors, and vice versa.
All kids played together. I never saw a cookie withheld from any kid, regardless of race. We had a little swimming pool in our yard, and all the kids were invited in. Hot dogs and lemonade were made by my mom, and served to all. They were indeed, the good ole days!
As far as the flags go, I really wouldn't care what flags were there to represent people buried either. I believe that God looks on the heart intent, more then outward things. Problem is, the way I see it anyway, is when you deny one person the right to have a flag, you really infringe on thier rights, Eventually, everybody will have a problem with something, and then nobody will have nothing. Whats next?
I recall not long ago a town was having a rat problem, and they were taking measures to get rid of them. Some members of Peta, dressed like Rats in costume, and held signs at busy intersections, saying I want to live...thou shalt not kill..spare the rat! That was absolutely ridicolous! It takes one "I am offended",and everybody wants to change everything. We start giving the government to much control over things, then complain when they start making laws we don't like.
When I attended school, we had pencil cases, with nice pointy pencils, a little pair of scissors (that barely cut paper) and a plastic ruler. Today, these are considered lethal weapons. Kids colored pictures, and they were pictures, displayed on the
cork boards in the classroom. Today, your picture is analiysed to see if you are exhibiting some kind of illness or anger,
I never recalled a set of doors in the school being locked, other then the ones where you weren't allowed to be, such as a boiler room or something of that nature.
Today, schools are locking doors between halls that contain other classrooms, to prevent trouble (fighting etc) until the bell rings and a supervised person is there to see classes move from one part to another. As I said, it is sad. This is more and more looking like a toatlly controlled society, more then one of freedom/
@John
There was not one person who was denied the right to have a flag in this case. It was on public property and a cemetary to boot. If there had been a single private individual who had stood there with a flag, nobody could take that flag away the way you're talking.
But I agree that there are too many infringements upon our rights. The problem as I see it, is that many of these are done by people who are deliberately ignoring the laws that protect our freedoms.
But many laws need to be revoked or reworked. Loopholes need to be closed and every law on the books should be evaluated with an eye to their actual constltutionality by, I guess, the Supreme Court or somebody.
I shrug at the mess we have.
LOL a christian flag "this is funny it's not a christian flag" it's a man's flag. I never heard of hey Peter yall make a symbol we all can unite under. My faith has no flags no symbols Yeshua asks me to remember him in one way and that's communion. All this other stuff DON'T MATTER.
There is nothing you can look at and say he is a christian, it's a change in you, and how you act, love and treat others like Yeshua would. ALL THESE MAN MADE CROSSES, ROSEMARYS, FLAGS, FISHES, SYMBOLS, PICTURES, CROWNS, RINGS, YEA I'M GOING TO SAY IT ALL OF IT IS STUPID Yeshua would 've never ok'd it. It goes against the 2nd commandment "well some of it".
Nevermind the other silliness in your post but what the hell is a 'rosemary'?
There was a time when people from all walks of life and religions worked side by side, no problems. (Sure there were still problems in the world, and issues, but that happened all thruout history)
What got lost, was respect.
Respect for the other person. In neighborhoods, there was a Jewish run grocery store, an Italian shoe maker shop, a Chinese tailor, a Polish restuarant etc. The Jewish store was down the street from the Catholic Church, and the Synagoug around the corner from the Italian Club. It was not unusual to here a Catholic person to wish a Jewish person Happy Hannukah, or vice versa..with Merry Christmas.
Kids went to school and said the pledge to the flag, and prayer was said, and nobody took issue with it. The Jewish kids father who owned a store, sent candy to the public school Christmas party, for all. Those people all made up a neighborhood back then, and they all watched out for kids, regardless of denonmination or color, as if they were their own kids. One helped another. On Sundays, they all attended thier own churches, and life went on.
Children played with one another, ate at one anothers house, played hopscotch and ball. Life was good. Everyone appreciated the freedoms they had, and worked side by side in peace. All of the immigrants here in America, worked hard at thier business and jobs, raised thier familys.
There was no politically correct stuff going on back then. It was live and let live. People had respect for themselves, one another, and thier fellow man. Most of all they had respect for thier country, and the laws that governed the land, and the flag that flew over the land of the brave and the free.
It is sad to see what this has all come to in this day and age. No respect for anything, anybody, any more. Everything is all "about me".
John,
You are so right…how it ‘used to be’. Remember Independence Day when every town had their special ‘doings’ and there were flags on every pole and in everyone’s hands. Children played a big part in marching in parades, singing and reciting poems, relating ‘God loves America.’
What happened? Now everyone has to lock their doors and windows….
Even if everyone who is buried in a particular cemetery were Christian, someone would complain if a Christian flag flew over it.
I guess what it is coming down to is this…there will be cemeteries for any and all persons of any religion, and then cemeteries for the others. It would be an honor if all flags of all religions were flying over my grave along with the flag of the United States of America because just like our States are United and indivisible, I believe all faiths are united in many ways and God would be represented by the flags of these faiths.
All glory be to God!
John no disrespect but when was this, was this even in america you are talking about? Maybe some towns but you must be talking from your experince cause america was a scary place for other races than Caucasians.
Funny, I only hear white christians reminisce about how great everyone got along in the "good old days." Maybe they're remembering reruns of The Andy Griffith Show, or something. Come to think of it, wasn't Mayberry supposed to be in North Carolina too?
@NL
Oh..... You just had to didn't ya' 🙂
Peace...
CatholicMom-
Does the 'Christian flag' fly at any Catholic church you've seen? If so, where?
So.....what is the problem here.....?
Does anyone here *not* understand, that is was about taking down a *christian* flag...? Another FYI....Not all of the people that have served our country in the military are 'christians' for christ's sake.... wow, I used the C word.
Separation of Church and State is a good thing..... We are *not* a theocracy like Iran, so stop with all the ranting that we are a 'christian nation.' No... (we) are not... We are a nation of multi-denominational religious beliefs. The majority may be christian, but does not make us a christian nation, nor should the minority have to put up and have the christian beliefs shoved down their throats.....
Peace....
I like that, so true, to be honest we can't save this world. The world is doomed being christian is beiing saved for this world. Then why are so called christians trying to save it. It's not the world we are supposed to be saving it's the souls in it. Yeshua never was the type to push his religion down your throat. He said brush the dirt off your feet so why are christians not doing what he say?
@peace2all
We are a nation of FREE PEOPLE.
Individual beliefs cannot be used to reference more than the individuals themselves. If you don't like people blaming religions for the actions of individuals, then don't label people with their religions. They are not their religions. They are only themselves.
They are only people...and imperfect ones at that. If they are mentally ill with a delusional belief system, then don't lose sight of that fact. It might be the only thing we can use to save humanity from itself.
@Critter
I think your list of options is too small. There should be more to it than that. Perhaps you have truncated your arguments too far in order to make it readable in a blog. If so, why bother? Half-formed thoughts as talking points? What if you mangle your intent by doing so? Wouldn't that defeat your purpose?
@A view to a view
Options? Don't you mean possibilities or something like that?
I was only stating my opinions, although I do agree that "there should be more to it". There is.
I just wanted to make a "hyp0thetical" argument using my own opinions.
What if my intent is to say what I can before the opportunity passes? Would you expect perfection of me in a blog?
As for my purposes, who can say? Not you, that's for sure. They are MY purposes and I can even change them to fit the moment as needed and as I am able.
Go bother someone else. It was just a post, not an F*ing holy docu-ment. If you didn't like it, why don't you write your own instead of commenting that I didn't do something right?
Show me how it's done or explain in detail where I left stuff out.
@Critter
Yes... We are absolutely a nation of FREE PEOPLE... I never stated otherwise....
I believe that we are mostly on the same page from reading your posting to mine.
However, it is the ...'delusional beliefs' as you say, that may be mental illness....saving humanity from itself....? Where are ya' going with that one.....?
Flying a *christian* flag is apparently, from what I gather.....against the law. It is 'public' property. I don't want to see *crosses* all over the place, nor do I want to see the *Hillal* (Islam-star and crescent moon). If it is your 'private' land, do what you want...
And again, my posting stands....... Our countless self-less military, who have given their lives....*are not* all Christians, hence.......Don't fly a *christian* symbol or flag..... I *know* it is offensive to some that have families that are *not* christian.
Critter--I may be reading your post wrong, or maybe there was some misunderstanding, but I believe we are on the same side here....?
Anyways.... Peace to you.....
@Critter
P.S...... I went back up through the threads and re-read your postings to get a bit more context about you and where you are coming from....
And.... i do believe now we are definitely inline with our world-views, belief systems, opinions...etc......
So..... maybe we can have some kind of further rational discussion concerning said topic...?
Let me know..... You are now on my 'radar' I will be watching for your posts to see if we can have some discussions....
Again.....Peace to you......
@peace2all
I had to grin at your response(s), you are indeed a wild-man bent on destructive peace! LOL
I should have prefaced my first response with your words: "We are a nation of multi-denominational religious beliefs."
That was, I thought, pretty clear, but I often make foolish assumptions about the actions of others and what they would or could do under any particular circu-mstance. Live and learn. *sigh*
I wasn't trying to refute what you were saying, I was adding to it while hijacking the point towards what I felt to be more important in the end.
The dangers to humanity as a whole from insanity appear to have more to do with most modern problems than the majority are willing to...? Address? Consider? Prioritize? Acknowledge?
I confess I see too many words that will work at the end of that sentence.
Please consider the possible consequences of every misapplied intention, and of every action motivated by "insanity".
I guess I am taking the long view. The really long view. Yet psychological problems are everywhere in the here and now, causing most of the things labeled as "bad" or "evil".
"just hijackin" as I often do. (hi Kate you wonderful you) I've done it to lots of people, including Kate. She's lots of fun sometimes. 🙂
So no peace for you. Have some donuts instead as you see the abyss before humanity. The time can be short or long depending on if you drink coffee while eating your donuts or walking all the way to the well for a drink of water.
(sorry -had to get mystical somewhere to soften the blow! 🙂 )
I really should have just made my own post. Sorry...sorta...
@Critter
Wait, what?
Just retakin'
@Critter
O.K..... So, I 'still' don't understand your point, and it looks like 'Kate' doesn't either.....
But, I have noticed you attacking others about their religion..... Just curious...?
So...no peace for you either...?
Peace......
@Kate
Can you help translate @Critter talk for me..... I have re-read his/her post a couple of times and .....Critter says.."I wasn't trying to refute what you were saying, I was adding to it, while hijaking the point towards a more important end, etc...etc...."
Well, I am open to learning....maybe there is a *point* in there somewhere for me to learn from....
Peace......
@peace2all
In context, taking a comment that's on one thing then using it to springboard into an entirely new direction, which may or may not be connected.
Kind of like Reality but makes more sense, and doesn't cut and paste – albeit with a tinge of devil's advocate in there.
Just guessin'
@Kate
Yeah....kind of what I thought.
Just an FYI....There is someone named @honestanon who has been spreading the hate -seriously against mulims and anyone in disagreement, including me, Frogist...and I had noticed he went after you on a posting...
Watch out for the d-bag..... He is trying to incite people to hate (all muslims)...and... anyone who is in disagreement with his posts.
Just warnin'
@Mike
I meant that "All it takes is money"-to make and pass an unconstltutional law.
And for your information, seeing how you obviously need it, the ACLU would not have sued for money, but only to have the flag removed. The high price would have come from the lawyers representing the church and the locals, not the ACLU.
If they could have found a lawyer willing to work for free (ha ha ha) then it would cost them nothing.
I think they tried to make it sound like it would be expensive, when the problem was that they knew they couldn't win against the First Amendment.
As for the quran burning thing in Florida, there was nothing for the ACLU to do. The guy was within his legal right to burn his own property on his own land. Everybody hated to have that pointed out, but burning his own quran was perfectly legal under the Constltution.
That was my question if Jones was in his legal right, why didn't the ACLU step in to defend him from the defense department and the president?
Mike:
The president and the defense department were not telling Jones that it was illegal, (nor did they have him arrested him nor threaten to do that). They just advised him that it was unwise and what the natural repercussions might be.
but everyone was terrified during the Bush years of the police state "... I wasn't so I guess not everyone was terrified, your logic doesn't explain why it wasn't fought in 2008, 2009.
I am all for the consti-tution that says Congress shall make no law regarding rel-igion. So as far as your unconst-itutional argument what law did congress make that put the flag up there in the first place?
@Mike
What??
What makes you think Congress had to make a law about it one way or the other? Some Christian extremist wanted their church flag up there and probably bribed somebody to make it happen. Whether this resulted in an unconstltutional law or regulation, I don't know, but it sounds like the decisions were all made a local level.
Just to let you know, the Constltution does not bar Congress from making unconstltutional laws. That's why so many cases go to the Supreme Court and get struck down. All it takes is money.
I guess we've got another "Baptist" church with ethical problems here. They actually wanted to fight the ACLU.
The ACLU would defend them in a hot second if their civil rights were being violated, but this time they are the ones violating the law and they have the gall to pretend that they did nothing wrong!!
Mike, I sure hope you find yourself needing the help of the ACLU. They are good people. Good Americans. They will fight for you even though you might not understand why....
I don't know maybe the actual wording of the first ammendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
So without a law change it looks absurd for all the people that claim first ammendment violation
" All it takes is money." correct that is the issue at hand, not that it was offensive but one threathens with a high price law suit.
Where was the ACLU for the q'ran burning? Note not I am for or against that but it is the latest situation that proves your point wrong.
Mike, the quran burning was on private land. do you really not understand the first amendment, or are you f*ing with us?
Also re-watching the story the town council voted to take it down to "avoid a 200 thousand lawsuit" not because it was un-consti-tional.
It would cost money and they would lose the case anyway. Why leave it up?
That's a defination of a ransom
Ransom? The money would go to pay for the trial, not to the pockets of the ACLU.
Luke~
I wonder if you shouldn’t give the yapper a break and look up “exit counseling”.
To all those that believe that flying the flag was wrong and unconsti-tional.
How did the flag get up there in the first place? Why was it ok in 2009,2008,2007, 2006,2005, 2004?
I guess it bothers me that it does not bother you that one person can write a letter to get change implemented. I mean one person out of ~7,000 that is straight up democracy right there.
@Mike
It IS unconstltutional. And they knew it when they put it up there all those years ago.
As for it being okay before – it wasn't, but everyone was terrified during the Bush years of the police state we had become, and so nobody wanted to bring down any more oppression by "making a fuss".
If one person was able to bring justice on the behalf of many then what's your complaint? Are you one of those people who think you should be able to vote to destroy our Constltutional Freedoms? Shall we vote to destroy your particular church then?
Why don't you move to a different country? We could probably use the space you're using to store confiscated religious flags....
but everyone was terrified during the Bush years of the police state "... I wasn't so I guess not everyone was terrified, your logic doesn't explain why it wasn't fought in 2008, 2009.
I am all for the consti-tution that says Congress shall make no law regarding rel-igion. So as far as your unconst-itutional argument what law did congress make that put the flag up there in the first place?
Try 3
My guess is that no one from the opponent's side noticed. We simply can't be everywhere at once. One battle at a time, Mike. It simply wasn't legal then and we've only now gotten to it. It's not like any laws changed.
It is a taxpayer funded memorial on public land. That is what makes it illegal. There is no argument. Put the flag on private property and maintain it with private funds and the ACLU (and me) will leave them alone.
Not sure I follow you " It simply wasn't legal then and we've only now gotten to it. It's not like any laws changed."
What wasn't legal about it, and if it wasn't legal who should stand for the crime?
The fact that no laws changed is the argument that it did not then violate the consti-tution's first ammendment.
Come on Luke be intellectually honest, you know the statement of leaving people alone is not true. You also know that there is no such thing as private property anymore as it was deemed ok for police to put tracking devices on cars that are parked in peoples drive ways.
So is it ok for indivual graves?
Are you allowed to bury people on private property?
What if it came through a donation?
How much does it cost to mantain a flag?
My 9:43 comment was written before your 9:39 commet appeared.
Mike – I don't know who erected it. Perhaps it was a previous city council. When the ACLU found out, they filed suit. I can't tell if you are trolling or simple minded. No one will be held accountable and no one will go to jail. If they refused to remove the flag, then the ACLU would have gone ahead with the suit, the city would have lost and federal authorities would have removed the flag. If then they refused or protested, I can assume that arrestted would be made.
" if you are trolling or simple minded" Luke you made the comment that such an act was illegal, do you not want to see the person who violated the supposed law brought to justice? Or will you let them go free so they can do it again.... then don't make the erronous comment that it is illegal
Mike – It being illegal doesn't mean I want to see the person tossed in jail much in the same way I don't want jaywalkers prosecuted. This was a clear violation of the Establishment Clause. My goal, if asked, would be to see that the flag is removed and that the citizens are educated properly.
Luke~
Are you advocating a “vacation” to Auschwitz, if I disagree with you?
Just a FYI deprogramming the masses might get a little messy…..
For those Christian flag lovers, fly one on your own flag pole saving taxpayers the expense of law suits and maitenance. Maybe you can claim it as a charitable contribution?
http://www.flagandbanner.com/fab/productpage.asp?id=K35CC
Nylon Christian Flag Fringed with Pole Hem
A beautiful, heavyweight all-nylon taffeta with brilliant luster. This applique flag is decorated with 2 in. gold bullion fringe and finished with 3 ft. flannel lined pole heading and Velcro tabs.
2 ft. x 3 ft. $53.34 RCHRI23PHF
3 ft. x 5 ft. $85.44 RCHRI35PHF
4 – 1/3 ft. x 5 -1/2 ft. $95.45 RCHRI45PHF
4 ft. x 6 ft. $95.45 RCHRI46PHF
5 ft. x 8 ft. $115.15 RCHRI58PHF
@Reality
Vintage Reality...Love it...!!!! 🙂
Peace.....
I think Eddie Izzard best summed up the importance of flags.
The Brits went to India and said "This is our land now!" And the Indians go "But we live here, it's ours!" But the Brits went "Ah, but you don't have a flag, do you?" And thus the Brits gained control of India.
Marry me.
We need to stop the Politically Correct crap and get back to basics. Go ahead and fly Old Glory, your church flag – whatever, the division of church and state still stands. It's a flag for God sake.....there is no rhetoric.
@Scotty
It's a flag for God sake
It might be, but flags are important. The people being remembered at that site fought under one, because they believed in what that flag represented. As NL put it so perfectly above, there should only be one (well, two if you include the POW/MIA one as I noted the photo didn;t show flying there).
If the flag they fought under, and died for, is important, then any other flag there is going to have equal force. It shouldn't be a contradiction from the one above it.
It's not political correctness. It's simple respect to those who lie beneath it. The country owes them that much at least.
Just sayin'
I believe the captial building and several other gov/monument buildings in DC need to be destroyed and rebuilt as they contain so many chistian images it's insulting to walk in them.
Hmmm... How about those Roman "Fasces" on the Lincoln Memorial? You know, those little bundles of wood that make up the arms of the chairs? That symbolism is a little distasteful nowadays too, but what are you gonna do, right?
As a whole, Daniel Chester French’s main body of work, we find quite frankly….agreeable.
Do you think they made a tape of them, taking down the flag? I would like to have several copies to give out as Christmas presents.
hey, we seem to be fans of each other by now. Check out the linked article. They have a comments section. I basically went through one by one and thrashed them. It was far to easy. Almost embarrassingly easy. And people start to wonder why the South is stereotyped as...uh...slow.
I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but we're in "God's country" down here. Religion/Christianity (sp) is a big part of the culture in NC. Its probably good they took it down. I consider myself a Christian and i don't think i would want to see the flag of another religion flying in my town. Better to not have any.
Well now wait a min..
wait..
hmm.
Actually, got nothing negative to say at this at all. I'm impressed! 🙂
Well Pete, just sucks that NC is part of a secular union then, eh? Obey federal laws, or secede. Sorry dude, what you call God's Country, I call the United States. No special rules for you.
Luke-
You can make good comments, but you seem to like to attack with most. I never said anything about special rules. My remark about "God's country" was just to inform people who may not live in NC what it is like, especially the culture of a small town like King. I am a Christian, so in the same accord as an agonostic, i don't want another religion to be forced on me. So, i agree with speration of church and state.
I was harsh on you in retrospect. Please do accept my apologies. I do stand by my opinion, however. I think it comes from the fact that most within your god's country are not so understanding and would rather secede than listen to my thoughts on the matter.
Ah, it's a cultural thing! Maybe the folks in Wisconsin can fly cheese flags at their veterans' parks? Maybe bagel flags in New York, or surfboard flags in Hawaii?
My honest opinion, the only flag that should be flying at a veterans' park is the flag they had sewn onto their uniforms when they fought: The American flag.
NL – As a resident of NYC, I find your bagel comment highly offensive! *smirk*
@NL
Well said, NL++
Just praisin'
NL-
You can make fun all you want. Thats just the way it is in NC. This is a beautiful state with some beautiful people. I'm quite proud to be from here.
Hmmm... Seeing how the elections are going should we expect to see some tea bag flags flying soon?
pete-
I never make fun about the American flag. What problem do you have with it?
NL-
Thats funny that you try to turn it around to me. My remark to you was in response to you about the culture. I was saying things are right or wrong. Just trying to give insight into Southern coulture for those who may have not grown up in the south. I'm looking for good conversations between people who may have different thoughts/opinions on subjects. I don't want to go back and forth with snide comments. That isn't hefpul at all.
pete-
Oh, I don't mean to be intentionally snide, just straightforward.
I'm assuming then that only christians ever served in the armed forces in NC? No Jews, Buddhists or anybody else from another faith because it'd be a pretty big slap in their faces if only the christian vets got the special honor of having their flag flown, wouldn't it? Are you even sure that most of NC's mainline protestants and catholics support the christian flag? How about the 12% of the population that listed their faith position as "irreligious?" So, are you sure that you are speaking of the overall culture, or only the culture you are familiar with?
NL-
I would say that i'm speaking about the culture of small town NC. I grew up close to King and my in-laws in Rual Hall which is just south of King. And again, don't think that i'm saying that they need to have the flag flying. I'm trying to explain why the flag was flying. In the small towns of NC, things/ideas/ways of thinking are very slow to change. There are some very good things that come from that, and yet some still bad, very backwards thinking that stays around (rascism is still very rampant down here). NC has had a population boom in the last 10-12 years to our big cities (Raleigh and Charlotte). We are finally getting people with different cultures and beliefs that is helping shape those places into better communitties. It takes a little time for those ideas to trickle into the smaller towns.
pete-
That's why we need folks like the ACLU to shed light on localized activities like this so that the folks can actually get an outsiders' take on what they are doing. Otherwise they'll happily continue to slight people out of ignorance, and if there's one thing I do know about southerners, unintentionally insulting people is considered socially unacceptable.
Sorry if I got a little abrupt with you, but veterans being mistreated really raises my hackles.
NL-
I can certainly understand your feelings when it comes to veterans. My father and most of his family served during Vietnam and i just lost a buddy to an IED in Afganistan last year. Let me say that the raising of the Christian flag was not ment to upset, i don't think anyway. I would assume, because i know how people down here back the military and are just overall good people, they only had good intentions. Right or wrong, i think that is it. Thank you for the conversation!!!!!
pete-
Been nice talking to you too!
I'm sure that they're basically good people, and that they wouldn't want to offend veterans, but all they have to do is imagine a car load of Finkelsteins driving cross country, stopping at their park for a break, and wondering how the locals would've treated their granddad if he had stopped off while on leave during WWII? Most veterans I know cherish every American's service and sacrifice equally, and I'm sure that the fine people of NC appreciate all of our vets as well. For this alone that flag had to be taken down.
letter from the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State on August 11 and a letter from the ACLU on August 16 threatening lawsuits if the flag was not taken down. The decision to remove the flag stems from City Attorney Walter Pitt estimating it could cost the city as much as $300,000 to fight a possible lawsuit from the ACLU.
First there is no SoCaS in the consti-tution
and second whty isn't this group being tried for terr-orism.... meet are demans or we will extort your money.
The "skinny" on the term "separation of church and state":
The phrase "separation of church and state" is derived from a private letter written by President Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to Baptists from Danbury, Connecticut. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Const-itution, Jefferson writes:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.[17]
Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights. In a 1789 debate in the House of Representatives regarding the draft of the First Amendment, the following was said:
August 15, 1789. Mr. [Peter] Sylvester [of New York] had some doubts...He feared it [the First Amendment] might be thought to have a tendency to abolish religion altogether...Mr. [Elbridge] Gerry [of Massachusetts] said it would read better if it was that "no religious doctrine shall be established by law."...Mr. [James] Madison [of Virg-inia] said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that "Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law."...[T]he State[s]...seemed to entertain an opinion that under the clause of the Const-itution...it enabled them [Congress] to make laws of such a nature as might...establish a national religion; to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended...Mr. Madison thought if the word "National" was inserted before religion, it would satisfy the minds of honorable gentlemen...He thought if the word "national" was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent.[18]
Google the topic for more commentary.
@Mike
There's just that whole pesky Establishment Clause, the first part of the First Amendment. Of course, what would Madison and Jefferson know about the whole idea behind things like the Const|tution, what the framers had in mind when they wrote it, and other such things casually overlooked by those who claim to be conservative ...
Just sayin'
HAHAH – what? Seriously now, what? I can't even form a rebuttal after reading your nonsensical argument. A black hole just opened up around me and ate my brain. I've read some really dumb things on these boards, but you take the cake buddy. Wow, what a laugher! Thanks for that. I was having a bad day until now. Phew! my sides hurt.
Reality and Kate, you are correct it was from a separate letter that Jefferson wrote. And yes he was wrong in stating the intentions of the ammendment that Madison, not Jefferson worte.
Luke as always thank you for your great contribution to the discussion that leads nowhere.
@Mike
It's my understanding that Madison also spoke of a separation between church and State after the Const|tution was written in letters to others, but from a different angle, to avoid state interference in religion – with the default qualifier that I'm not a scholar.
As to your question as to why people didn't object to the flag in the previous years, I can only guess that no-one noticed it or the threat of lawsuits came about after attempts were made talking to the council directly that failed.
From my perspective, in this case and if there's others like it, my objections are less related to the readings of the Establishment Clause itself, it's tied to the veterans instead – not all of those being remembered would have been Christian, it's disrespectful to them to imply otherwise with such a flag. And what about those who were atheists?
I know I sure as heck would be offended if I was one of them, at least.
Having said that, I think things like that monument out west that was objected to was a bad call. Just because it was on state land didn't make it a state's endorsement. If the state allowed anyone else to do the exact same thing, then that, to my mind, falls outside the Establishment Clause.
Just sayin'
Go ahead and count the number of times god, jesus, christian and bible are in the US con sti tution. Add them up.
what is the sum?
Selfish Gene
Just as many as times as : Atheist, self-worship, hate, radical, and secularism are in the US con sti tution.
Yep, I dont care how mad it makes the Christians, it doesnt belong.
Aw....after watching Tosh.o last night i should have said "FIRST!".
I find it quite hypocritical that IF Christians ever do the same thing to Atheist, they'll (the Atheists) would find that to be a "violation" to the consitution (as always).
@mkv
You mean.....Should the atheists fly their (flag), etc...etc....? Really...? LOL..!!!!! 🙂
Peace....